Re: gEDA-user: best ways to do SMT assembly
On Aug 14, 2008, at 8:26 PM, DJ Delorie wrote: >> http://matthewsager.googlepages.com/smdholder > > Ok, that's a neat idea. A REALLY neat idea. I think I'll be building one of those. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user
Re: gEDA-user: best ways to do SMT assembly
You just have to make sure the holder is to heavy or sharp on the point to damage very small or fragile parts. I am thinking of making mine a little lighter. It does not take much to hold the parts down long enough to tack them with solder. On Thu, Aug 14, 2008 at 8:26 PM, DJ Delorie <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > "Matthew Sager" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes: > > http://matthewsager.googlepages.com/smdholder > > Ok, that's a neat idea. > > > ___ > geda-user mailing list > geda-user@moria.seul.org > http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user > ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user
Re: gEDA-user: best ways to do SMT assembly
"Matthew Sager" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes: > http://matthewsager.googlepages.com/smdholder Ok, that's a neat idea. ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user
Re: gEDA-user: best ways to do SMT assembly
This my own version of a tool a friend of mine had. It is pretty good at holding down SMD parts while I solder them. I just built mine out of scrap I had. I just uses a pencil iron and small diameter wire solder. http://matthewsager.googlepages.com/smdholder Matthew ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user
Re: gEDA-user: geda-user Digest, Vol 27, Issue 21
>3. add vertex in PCB line (Vincent Onelli) >4. Re: add vertex in PCB line (Ben Jackson) > Message: 3 > Date: Wed, 13 Aug 2008 15:07:21 -0400 > From: Vincent Onelli <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > Subject: gEDA-user: add vertex in PCB line > To: geda-user@moria.seul.org > Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > Content-Type: text/plain > > Hi, > Is there way to add a vertex in PCB line? > Vinny. > > > > -- > > Message: 4 > Date: Wed, 13 Aug 2008 12:16:04 -0700 > From: Ben Jackson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > Subject: Re: gEDA-user: add vertex in PCB line > To: gEDA user mailing list > Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii > > On Wed, Aug 13, 2008 at 03:07:21PM -0400, Vincent Onelli wrote: > > Hi, > > Is there way to add a vertex in PCB line? > > Vinny. > > Yes, use the insert tool, but it's a bit wacky. It's going to enforce > the current line angles for both new lines which can make it impossible > to insert a new point. If the new point ends up collinear with the > existing line it will be removed automatically... > > My 'jostle' plugin (see gedasymbols) might be more what you want. > > -- > Ben Jackson AD7GD > <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > http://www.ben.com/ > > Thank you very much, this save me some time. I had try it before but I could > not get it to work, > based on your explanation I checked the setting "All-direction" line, that > did it. > -- > ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user
Re: gEDA-user: ngspice subckt problems
On Thursday 14 August 2008, Christoph Lechner wrote: > Hmm, looks like the g++ compiler of Debian 3.1 (still running > that fairly 'mature' distro :) can't handle the source code > of gnucap. Looks like the code of gnucap triggers some bug in > the really old g++ version that shipped with Debian 3.1. > > g++ dies with > make[2]: Entering directory > `/loc_files/ngspice-build/gnucap-2008-05-27/src' g++ > -DHAVE_CONFIG_H -I. -I.. -DNDEBUG -g -O2 -MT d_mos8.o -MD > -MP -MF .deps/d_mos8.Tpo -c -o d_mos8.o d_mos8.cc > > cc1plus: out of memory allocating 2653014200 bytes after a > total of 24993792 bytes Known compiler bug. It's the optimizer. Turn off optimization and it should work. Since you are not using that model, you could leave it out. Just edit the makefile to remove "d_mos8.model" . If you are using Debian, you could just "apt-get install gnucap" but the some of the features you want are only in the development version. The latest is 2008-08-10. Still, it won't read your file as is, as I said in another mail. ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user
Re: gEDA-user: ngspice subckt problems
On Thursday 14 August 2008, Christoph Lechner wrote: > I'm just trying to use my spice model in ngspice. > LTspice/SwitcherCad from Linear Technology runs it like a > charm. > > If I run ngspice I get some error messages: > Too few parameters for subcircuit type "12at7" (instance: > x102) Too few parameters for subcircuit type "12at7" > (instance: x101) One of the problems with Spice format simulators is that they are all different. It all goes back to Berkeley Spice-2 -- then deviates from there. Every derivative of Spice has developed in its own way. One adds a feature, and another adds the feature too, but a little different. Every new feature makes some nuance that used to work not work. Keep this up for 30 years . The makers of commercial simulators can afford to hire a bunch of programmers to chase and clone the competition's new features. The free ones don't have the resources for this, unless users step in. What you have is a file written with a bunch of those proprietary extensions. At a glance I see ... -- the semicolon -- ".param" statement -- passing parameters to a subckt -- the syntax for defining the default subckt parameters -- addition of models -- the existance of behavioral expressions -- syntax differences for the behavioral expressions So, fix one, you still have a dozen to go. This is one of the reasons the experts are pushing for a change away from the Spice format. Still, we have lots of legacy code. If you want to use Gnucap, I will help you make it work. It will help me, by having a set of real files that somebody is using. > The background of why I now want to use ngspice is that I > want to play with the parameters a little bit to get out the > maximum possible output voltage swing. (This circuit is > intended for scope tube deflection.) => Lots of simulation > runs. > So one needs some sort of scriptable spice environment, for > example a UNIX command line program :) That's another place where they are all different. NGspice doesn't offer much in this regard. Gnucap offers much more in being scriptable and ability to play with parameters. Gnucap lets you make arbitrary changes to the circuit interactively, so doing a bunch of "what-if's" is actually very easy. It also will give you a lot more info about your circuit, but only if you ask. ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user
Re: gEDA-user: ngspice subckt problems
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 Stuart Brorson wrote: > Alternately, why don't you grab the latest Gnucap? Al (the main > developer) updates the release tarball quite regularly. Hmm, looks like the g++ compiler of Debian 3.1 (still running that fairly 'mature' distro :) can't handle the source code of gnucap. Looks like the code of gnucap triggers some bug in the really old g++ version that shipped with Debian 3.1. g++ dies with make[2]: Entering directory `/loc_files/ngspice-build/gnucap-2008-05-27/src' g++ -DHAVE_CONFIG_H -I. -I.. -DNDEBUG -g -O2 -MT d_mos8.o -MD -MP -MF .deps/d_mos8.Tpo -c -o d_mos8.o d_mos8.cc cc1plus: out of memory allocating 2653014200 bytes after a total of 24993792 bytes So I'll have to wait until Monday ... regards Christoph -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.4.7 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org iD8DBQFIpJMLWo2QgtqY4K8RApr4AKCS/WznTc80MMLdK8/wx9HUBIlCvwCeLGMH Z81UKHShVyM4jnlix06vM5k= =dqn5 -END PGP SIGNATURE- ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user
Re: gEDA-user: ngspice subckt problems
> OK, I'm not that familiar with the Spice subcircuit syntax. Actually I > considered Spice as some sort of black-box. If you want to successfully use ngspice, you're best off reading up on SPICE syntax and usage. It's not a black box yet, and while manual intervention is not always necessary, it still has enough problems that if you don't know about SPICE, then you'll probably be lost. > Or do I need some developer version, as the one I used is about 3 years old? Perhaps. The developer version has lots of good stuff in it. The project should really release a new tarball. Alternately, why don't you grab the latest Gnucap? Al (the main developer) updates the release tarball quite regularly. Stuart ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user
Re: gEDA-user: ngspice subckt problems
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 Werner Hoch wrote: > Hi Christroph, Hi Werner, > On Donnerstag, 14. August 2008, Christoph Lechner wrote: >> Uploaded this file as well >> http://www.cl-projects.de/projects/sc/triode2-stripped-down.cir > > You're .SUBCKT line is longer: > .SUBCKT 12AT7 1 2 3 > + PARAMS: MU=60 EX=1.35 KG1=460 KP=300 KVB=300 RGI=2000 > + CCG=2.3P CGP=2.2P CCP=1.0P > > The lines beginning with '+' are part of the subcircuit definition. OK, I'm not that familiar with the Spice subcircuit syntax. Actually I considered Spice as some sort of black-box. > These are parameters of the subcircuit. ngspice can not simulate such > subcircuits by default. > > You have to build ngspice with the configuration > option --enable-numparam. Have tried this, but it didn't help me either. I ran ./configure --prefix=/opt/ngspice --enable-numparam --enable-xgraph to configure the new Spice installation. Then I did the usual 'make' and 'make install' stuff. The tarball I downloaded is "ng-spice-rework-17.tar.gz", dated 2005-08-30. I'm also sure that I run the right ngspice binary in /opt/ngspice, because I can only run 'ngspice' on my command line when I add /opt/ngspice/bin to my path. Or do I need some developer version, as the one I used is about 3 years old? regards Christoph -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.4.7 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org iD8DBQFIpIUhWo2QgtqY4K8RAijkAJsFuihrdebvczi205ZbuXiApkli5wCghcQ1 B9gS1gjPxlnbb+DgoVvR4nE= =w2iL -END PGP SIGNATURE- ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user
Re: gEDA-user: best ways to do SMT assembly
On Thu, Aug 14, 2008 at 2:32 PM, Robert Butts <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > I'm sorry to start a new thread on this, I can't find saved mail I've seen > before. > > I got pcbs back and now want to assemble them. What is the best way, i.e. > solder paste to use, heating method, solder bridge removal...? Most of the > components are small SMT parts. The through hole parts I'm fine with. > > Thanks > I use an fine-tip on my soldering iron with fine wire solder. A list of my tools and supplies is at *http://tinyurl.com/5foeou (* jcl *) * -- http://www.luciani.org ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user
Re: gEDA-user: best ways to do SMT assembly
I have solder paste in a syringe. Dab a bit of paste on every pad, place parts, heat it up on a hotplate. Works like a charm, but you have to manually solder the other side's SMTs. Even then, I dab paste, place part, hold part down with something and touch both ends with the iron to melt the paste. For larger boards, I usually make a stencil for the paste and put it on that way. It's not much more accurate, but it's a lot faster. For bridges, just use a bit of copper braid to remove it. ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user
Re: gEDA-user: best ways to do SMT assembly
http://www.sparkfun.com/commerce/tutorials.php Look under Surface Mount Soldering Tutorials. Some good stuff in there. From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Robert Butts Sent: Thursday, August 14, 2008 18:33 To: gEDA user mailing list Subject: gEDA-user: best ways to do SMT assembly I'm sorry to start a new thread on this, I can't find saved mail I've seen before. I got pcbs back and now want to assemble them. What is the best way, i.e. solder paste to use, heating method, solder bridge removal...? Most of the components are small SMT parts. The through hole parts I'm fine with. Thanks ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user
gEDA-user: best ways to do SMT assembly
I'm sorry to start a new thread on this, I can't find saved mail I've seen before. I got pcbs back and now want to assemble them. What is the best way, i.e. solder paste to use, heating method, solder bridge removal...? Most of the components are small SMT parts. The through hole parts I'm fine with. Thanks ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user
Re: gEDA-user: ngspice subckt problems
Hi Christroph, On Donnerstag, 14. August 2008, Christoph Lechner wrote: > Uploaded this file as well > http://www.cl-projects.de/projects/sc/triode2-stripped-down.cir You're .SUBCKT line is longer: .SUBCKT 12AT7 1 2 3 + PARAMS: MU=60 EX=1.35 KG1=460 KP=300 KVB=300 RGI=2000 + CCG=2.3P CGP=2.2P CCP=1.0P The lines beginning with '+' are part of the subcircuit definition. These are parameters of the subcircuit. ngspice can not simulate such subcircuits by default. You have to build ngspice with the configuration option --enable-numparam. Regards Werner ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user
Re: gEDA-user: ngspice subckt problems
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 Stuart Brorson wrote: >> If I run ngspice I get some error messages: >> Too few parameters for subcircuit type "12at7" (instance: x102) >> Too few parameters for subcircuit type "12at7" (instance: x101) >> >> The 12at7 subcircuit model is a triode model by Norman Koren: >> http://www.normankoren.com/Audio/Tubemodspice_article.html >> >> It appears to me that the offending line in the spice file is >> X102 vplate2 vg2 vcat 12AT7 >> The subcircuit in the model file begin with >> .SUBCKT 12AT7 1 2 3 ; P G C > > I believe that the ";" to start a comment is a syntax from PSpice > which is undefined in ngspice. Please remove the "; P G C" stuff and > try again. This didn't help. Removed all the comments beginning with ";" and also removed all unused tube models. Uploaded this file as well http://www.cl-projects.de/projects/sc/triode2-stripped-down.cir regards Christoph -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.4.7 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org iD8DBQFIpGhGWo2QgtqY4K8RAjAeAJ4sty6jUiLab07o93fmVQELLXdLYQCgq3H7 LBECGYYHbnIdPWMqrprKSm4= =Vd+i -END PGP SIGNATURE- ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user
Re: gEDA-user: Gross errors using gsymcheck
IIRC gsymcheck is for symbols not schematics. Usage: gsymcheck [OPTIONS] filename1 ... filenameN -hPrint usage -qQuiet mode -vVerbose mode (cumulative: errors, warnings, info) Use this to get the actual symbol error messages filename1 ... filenameN are the symbols to check (* jcl *) On Thu, Aug 14, 2008 at 12:51 PM, Gary L. Roach <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>wrote: > Hi > > I just ran gsymcheck on a schematic for a power supply and got the > following: > > > [EMAIL PROTECTED]:~/gaf/PFC_1Kw_Regulator$ gsymcheck -vv > PFC_1kwRegulatorP1.sch > gEDA/gsymcheck version 1.4.0.20080127 > gEDA/symcheck comes with ABSOLUTELY NO WARRANTY; see COPYING for more > details. > This is free software, and you are welcome to redistribute it under certain > conditions; please see the COPYING file for more details. > > > Checking: /home/gary/gaf/PFC_1Kw_Regulator/PFC_1kwRegulatorP1.sch > ERROR: Found wrongly attached attribute: [refdes=CONN101] > ERROR: Found wrongly attached attribute: [device=MAINS_ENTRY] > ERROR: Found wrongly attached attribute: [footprint=""] > ERROR: Found wrongly attached attribute: [symversion=1.0] > ERROR: Found wrongly attached attribute: [description=115V 60Hz ] > ERROR: Found wrongly attached attribute: [device=CAPACITOR] > ERROR: Found wrongly attached attribute: [refdes=C101] > ERROR: Found wrongly attached attribute: [symversion=0.1] > ERROR: Found wrongly attached attribute: [value=0.033 uf] > ERROR: Found wrongly attached attribute: [description=Panasonic > ECQM4333KZ 0.033 uf 400WVDC +/- 10%] > ERROR: Found wrongly attached attribute: [footprint=""] > ERROR: Found wrongly attached attribute: [device=FUSE] > ERROR: Found wrongly attached attribute: [refdes=F101] > ERROR: Found wrongly attached attribute: [symversion=0.1] > ERROR: Found wrongly attached attribute: [value=15A] > ERROR: Found wrongly attached attribute: [footprint=""] > ERROR: Found wrongly attached attribute: [description=AGC Panel Mounted > Holder] > ERROR: Found wrongly attached attribute: [refdes=U101] > ERROR: Found wrongly attached attribute: [device=DIODE-BRIDGE] > ERROR: Found wrongly attached attribute: [numslots=0] > ERROR: Found wrongly attached attribute: [description=GBPC1504 15A, > 400PIV Bridge Recifier by Diodes Inc. Digikey P/N GBPC1504DI-ND $3.75/1] > ERROR: Found wrongly attached attribute: [footprint=""] > ERROR: Found wrongly attached attribute: [value=GBPC1504] > > There were 118 errors. All components errored out. Almost all of the > symbols used are from the library. While this part of the circuit is to > be chassis built, I don't think that should make a difference at this > stage. I have no idea what is wrong. Gattrib looks fine. > > Thanks for any help in advance. > > Gary Roach > > > > ___ > geda-user mailing list > geda-user@moria.seul.org > http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user > -- http://www.luciani.org ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user
Re: gEDA-user: ngspice subckt problems
> If I run ngspice I get some error messages: > Too few parameters for subcircuit type "12at7" (instance: x102) > Too few parameters for subcircuit type "12at7" (instance: x101) > > The 12at7 subcircuit model is a triode model by Norman Koren: > http://www.normankoren.com/Audio/Tubemodspice_article.html > > It appears to me that the offending line in the spice file is > X102 vplate2 vg2 vcat 12AT7 > The subcircuit in the model file begin with > .SUBCKT 12AT7 1 2 3 ; P G C I believe that the ";" to start a comment is a syntax from PSpice which is undefined in ngspice. Please remove the "; P G C" stuff and try again. Stuart ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user
gEDA-user: ngspice subckt problems
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 Hi all, (this is actually a ngspice posting, so maybe it's off-topic?) I'm just trying to use my spice model in ngspice. LTspice/SwitcherCad from Linear Technology runs it like a charm. The .cir file was created from my gschem schematics file by running "gnetlist -g spice-sdb -o triode2.cir triode2.sch". getnetlist -g drc2 runs without any error message in the DRC file. It only prints some warnings: NOTE: Found pins without the 'pintype' attribute: X102:1 X102:2 X101:1 X102:3 X101:3 X101:2 But I don't believe that these have something to do with my problem. If I run ngspice I get some error messages: Too few parameters for subcircuit type "12at7" (instance: x102) Too few parameters for subcircuit type "12at7" (instance: x101) The 12at7 subcircuit model is a triode model by Norman Koren: http://www.normankoren.com/Audio/Tubemodspice_article.html It appears to me that the offending line in the spice file is X102 vplate2 vg2 vcat 12AT7 The subcircuit in the model file begin with .SUBCKT 12AT7 1 2 3 ; P G C So I really don't know where's the problem :( For the curious: PDF of the schematic http://www.cl-projects.de/projects/sc/triode2.pdf .cir file working fine in LTSpice http://www.cl-projects.de/projects/sc/triode2.cir The background of why I now want to use ngspice is that I want to play with the parameters a little bit to get out the maximum possible output voltage swing. (This circuit is intended for scope tube deflection.) => Lots of simulation runs. So one needs some sort of scriptable spice environment, for example a UNIX command line program :) What's wrong? regards, Christoph -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.4.7 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org iD8DBQFIpGRjWo2QgtqY4K8RAvWuAJ9PG1fKawvcTjNb1cTB63qiHcqsIACgikB8 l/SC50rXyXfurqFFZMPS5mQ= =8DpZ -END PGP SIGNATURE- ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user
gEDA-user: Gross errors using gsymcheck
Hi I just ran gsymcheck on a schematic for a power supply and got the following: [EMAIL PROTECTED]:~/gaf/PFC_1Kw_Regulator$ gsymcheck -vv PFC_1kwRegulatorP1.sch gEDA/gsymcheck version 1.4.0.20080127 gEDA/symcheck comes with ABSOLUTELY NO WARRANTY; see COPYING for more details. This is free software, and you are welcome to redistribute it under certain conditions; please see the COPYING file for more details. Checking: /home/gary/gaf/PFC_1Kw_Regulator/PFC_1kwRegulatorP1.sch ERROR: Found wrongly attached attribute: [refdes=CONN101] ERROR: Found wrongly attached attribute: [device=MAINS_ENTRY] ERROR: Found wrongly attached attribute: [footprint=""] ERROR: Found wrongly attached attribute: [symversion=1.0] ERROR: Found wrongly attached attribute: [description=115V 60Hz ] ERROR: Found wrongly attached attribute: [device=CAPACITOR] ERROR: Found wrongly attached attribute: [refdes=C101] ERROR: Found wrongly attached attribute: [symversion=0.1] ERROR: Found wrongly attached attribute: [value=0.033 uf] ERROR: Found wrongly attached attribute: [description=Panasonic ECQM4333KZ 0.033 uf 400WVDC +/- 10%] ERROR: Found wrongly attached attribute: [footprint=""] ERROR: Found wrongly attached attribute: [device=FUSE] ERROR: Found wrongly attached attribute: [refdes=F101] ERROR: Found wrongly attached attribute: [symversion=0.1] ERROR: Found wrongly attached attribute: [value=15A] ERROR: Found wrongly attached attribute: [footprint=""] ERROR: Found wrongly attached attribute: [description=AGC Panel Mounted Holder] ERROR: Found wrongly attached attribute: [refdes=U101] ERROR: Found wrongly attached attribute: [device=DIODE-BRIDGE] ERROR: Found wrongly attached attribute: [numslots=0] ERROR: Found wrongly attached attribute: [description=GBPC1504 15A, 400PIV Bridge Recifier by Diodes Inc. Digikey P/N GBPC1504DI-ND $3.75/1] ERROR: Found wrongly attached attribute: [footprint=""] ERROR: Found wrongly attached attribute: [value=GBPC1504] There were 118 errors. All components errored out. Almost all of the symbols used are from the library. While this part of the circuit is to be chassis built, I don't think that should make a difference at this stage. I have no idea what is wrong. Gattrib looks fine. Thanks for any help in advance. Gary Roach ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user
