Re: [newbie] MS is at it again... Now Really OT!!!
On Wed, 2003-07-23 at 23:00, Cornerstone Community Farm wrote: > Carroll, You MISSED the point! > The point is in the course of REAL life, with real people > (versus robots or machines), issues involving philosophy and other non-list > discussions come up. (boats, beer, politics, you name it) > It seems odd to me that you could miss such an obvious point, as just the fact > that OT topics come up on a "newbie" list shows we are dealing with real > people, not robots:) > Keith In most businesses these days, "worker bees" have certian rules regarding wasting company time with personal business including phone time. while you may not like considering yourself a robot, for the most part, our creative side must be controlled and our "robot" (or working) sides used. _This_ list ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) is run for business purpose's, and while almost no business would chase a customer that was chatting in the lobby (or hanging out in the OT lists) away, they might escort him to a different area than the welding production area of the manufacturing portion of plant (the equivalent of cooker, and to a less extent all the lists [EMAIL PROTECTED], imho). Want to buy your Pack or Services from MandrakeSoft? Go to http://www.mandrakestore.com
Re: [newbie] MS is at it again... Now Really OT!!!
On Thursday 24 Jul 2003 11:53 pm, Robin Turner wrote: > Todd Slater wrote: > > Why is it that the only time anybody gets their panties in a bunch is > > when the talk turns political and controversial? The reason I jumped in to this particular thread was because I was not prepared to let Anne be abused without saying something. There is nothing as impotent as a list at such times, nevertheless to sit by and say nothing would have been both unacceptable and shaming. As for the original flames I wrote twice, off-list, to the poster being abusive but, when the flames were directed publicly at a member of the list who is unfailingly courteous and attempts to help anyone with a problem... As I say it's an impotent action really, nevertheless the opinion MUST be posted. Arguments that the flames should be allowed to die only allow the flamer to assume that his, or her behaviour, is acceptable in public company. regards Daryl -- The Arkansas legislature passed a law that states that the Arkansas River can rise no higher than to the Main Street bridge in Little Rock. Want to buy your Pack or Services from MandrakeSoft? Go to http://www.mandrakestore.com
Re: [newbie] MS is at it again... Now Really OT!!!
On Thursday 24 July 2003 01:22 pm, Todd Slater wrote: > Why is it that the only time anybody gets their panties in a bunch is > when the talk turns political and controversial? Probably for the same reason that I get a lot of flames when I post questions about urpmi on political lists. > (A much more valid argument, I think, is consideration for those who pay > out the a$$ for their Internet connection.) Bingo! It has got to be really painful when they're on a 26.4 connection. > Todd -- cmg Want to buy your Pack or Services from MandrakeSoft? Go to http://www.mandrakestore.com
Re: [newbie] MS is at it again... Now Really OT!!!
Thanks for the common sense Todd, There are probably few lists that do not delve into the OT arena. (With exceptions for the rare dead, boring, dull lists) On Thursday 24 July 2003 12:22 pm, Todd Slater wrote: > On Thu, 24 Jul 2003 08:03:24 -0500 > > Curt Tresenriter <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > On 24 Jul 2003 06:27:47 -0400 > > > > ed tharp <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > > > This list (and life in general) are not for you if you can not > > > > make brief excusions into philosophy (real life). > > > > Keith (living a joy filled life) :) > > > > > > Sorry Keith, but it is not for you, nor me to decide what goes, or > > > does not go on this list. > > > The owners of the servers supporting this list, I am pretty damn > > > sure, have the say. > > > > > > It is my understanding that they set up this list to be a place > > > where people just getting into the linux-mandrake "experience" can > > > gather and discuss those thing pertaining to Linux-Mandrake. and > > > while there is great scope covered under that umbrella, most of the > > > thread, beginning with Anne's remarks (imho) do not belong on the > > > newbie list. They would be just great on the OT list tho. > > > > Not to mention the fact that this server space costs the company > > hosting it money. Considering Mandrake's precarious financial > > condition, I believe it's unconcsionable to waste it. You may consider > > this post as a waste but in reality, it *is* Mandrake related and my > > point is a fact everyone should consider before posting here. > > Why is it that the only time anybody gets their panties in a bunch is > when the talk turns political and controversial? There's a lot of > chatter on this list, much of which has nothing to do with Mandrake in > particular or even Linux. I've been skipping over messages about Aussies > and vegetables and what not (no offense!) today. It seems that if we're > going to say "no OT" then why not these tirades about the chit-chat? Is > somebody volunteering to be the moderator? > > No, I think it's fine the way it is. I--and I'm sure most of > you--are fully capable of scanning an email and hitting the delete > button if it's something I don't care to read. > > (A much more valid argument, I think, is consideration for those who pay > out the a$$ for their Internet connection.) > > Flame and filter away ;) > > Todd Want to buy your Pack or Services from MandrakeSoft? Go to http://www.mandrakestore.com
Re: [newbie] MS is at it again... Now Really OT!!!
Thanks for the common sense Todd, There are probably few lists that do not delve into the OT arena. (With exceptions for the rare dead, boring, dull lists) On Thursday 24 July 2003 12:22 pm, Todd Slater wrote: > On Thu, 24 Jul 2003 08:03:24 -0500 > > Curt Tresenriter <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > On 24 Jul 2003 06:27:47 -0400 > > > > ed tharp <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > > > This list (and life in general) are not for you if you can not > > > > make brief excusions into philosophy (real life). > > > > Keith (living a joy filled life) :) > > > > > > Sorry Keith, but it is not for you, nor me to decide what goes, or > > > does not go on this list. > > > The owners of the servers supporting this list, I am pretty damn > > > sure, have the say. > > > > > > It is my understanding that they set up this list to be a place > > > where people just getting into the linux-mandrake "experience" can > > > gather and discuss those thing pertaining to Linux-Mandrake. and > > > while there is great scope covered under that umbrella, most of the > > > thread, beginning with Anne's remarks (imho) do not belong on the > > > newbie list. They would be just great on the OT list tho. > > > > Not to mention the fact that this server space costs the company > > hosting it money. Considering Mandrake's precarious financial > > condition, I believe it's unconcsionable to waste it. You may consider > > this post as a waste but in reality, it *is* Mandrake related and my > > point is a fact everyone should consider before posting here. > > Why is it that the only time anybody gets their panties in a bunch is > when the talk turns political and controversial? There's a lot of > chatter on this list, much of which has nothing to do with Mandrake in > particular or even Linux. I've been skipping over messages about Aussies > and vegetables and what not (no offense!) today. It seems that if we're > going to say "no OT" then why not these tirades about the chit-chat? Is > somebody volunteering to be the moderator? > > No, I think it's fine the way it is. I--and I'm sure most of > you--are fully capable of scanning an email and hitting the delete > button if it's something I don't care to read. > > (A much more valid argument, I think, is consideration for those who pay > out the a$$ for their Internet connection.) > > Flame and filter away ;) > > Todd Want to buy your Pack or Services from MandrakeSoft? Go to http://www.mandrakestore.com
Re: [newbie] MS is at it again... Now Really OT!!!
On Thu, 24 Jul 2003 08:03:24 -0500 Curt Tresenriter <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > On 24 Jul 2003 06:27:47 -0400 > ed tharp <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > > > > > This list (and life in general) are not for you if you can not > > > make brief excusions into philosophy (real life). > > > Keith (living a joy filled life) :) > > Sorry Keith, but it is not for you, nor me to decide what goes, or > > does not go on this list. > > The owners of the servers supporting this list, I am pretty damn > > sure, have the say. > > > > It is my understanding that they set up this list to be a place > > where people just getting into the linux-mandrake "experience" can > > gather and discuss those thing pertaining to Linux-Mandrake. and > > while there is great scope covered under that umbrella, most of the > > thread, beginning with Anne's remarks (imho) do not belong on the > > newbie list. They would be just great on the OT list tho. > > Not to mention the fact that this server space costs the company > hosting it money. Considering Mandrake's precarious financial > condition, I believe it's unconcsionable to waste it. You may consider > this post as a waste but in reality, it *is* Mandrake related and my > point is a fact everyone should consider before posting here. Why is it that the only time anybody gets their panties in a bunch is when the talk turns political and controversial? There's a lot of chatter on this list, much of which has nothing to do with Mandrake in particular or even Linux. I've been skipping over messages about Aussies and vegetables and what not (no offense!) today. It seems that if we're going to say "no OT" then why not these tirades about the chit-chat? Is somebody volunteering to be the moderator? No, I think it's fine the way it is. I--and I'm sure most of you--are fully capable of scanning an email and hitting the delete button if it's something I don't care to read. (A much more valid argument, I think, is consideration for those who pay out the a$$ for their Internet connection.) Flame and filter away ;) Todd -- Name that tune #11: If I were David Byrne, I'd go to galleries and not be too concerned; and I would have a cup of coffee, and I'd find my surroundings quite amusing and people would ask me which were my favorite paintings. Want to buy your Pack or Services from MandrakeSoft? Go to http://www.mandrakestore.com
Re: [newbie] MS is at it again... Now Really OT!!!
On 24 Jul 2003 06:27:47 -0400 ed tharp <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > > This list (and life in general) are not for you if you can not make > > brief excusions into philosophy (real life). > > Keith (living a joy filled life) :) > Sorry Keith, but it is not for you, nor me to decide what goes, or > does not go on this list. > The owners of the servers supporting this list, I am pretty damn sure, > have the say. > > It is my understanding that they set up this list to be a place where > people just getting into the linux-mandrake "experience" can gather > and discuss those thing pertaining to Linux-Mandrake. and while there > is great scope covered under that umbrella, most of the thread, > beginning with Anne's remarks (imho) do not belong on the newbie list. > They would be just great on the OT list tho. Not to mention the fact that this server space costs the company hosting it money. Considering Mandrake's precarious financial condition, I believe it's unconcsionable to waste it. You may consider this post as a waste but in reality, it *is* Mandrake related and my point is a fact everyone should consider before posting here. Want to buy your Pack or Services from MandrakeSoft? Go to http://www.mandrakestore.com
Re: [newbie] MS is at it again...
On Wed, 2003-07-23 at 01:09, Brant Fitzsimmons wrote: > Curt Tresenriter wrote: > > >On Tue, 2003-07-22 at 23:36, Brant Fitzsimmons wrote: > > > > > >>C Tresenriter wrote: > >> > >> > >>>There's plenty of blame to go around. > >>> > >>> > >>Agreed. However, there is a line at which heated discussion turns into > >>verbal abuse. You can tell a person that their information is wrong > >>with out attacking them personally. That is when it crosses the line. > >> > >> > >I didn't realize only one person using personal attacks, thought I saw > >several. > > > > > >>>It takes two to tango. > >>> > >>> > >>It takes two to debate. Unfortunately, one can start a war. :-( > >> > >> > >One needs another to start a war > > > > Agreed. There does need to be a victim. > > >- although *one* can certainly end a > >war. > > > > I'm ending my part, whatever that may be, but in the future I will not > stand by and watch if someone (guess who?) again decides to attack > anyone else (Anne, etc.) without cause. > > you _do_ realize that the only way to "win" a fight is not to fight? and if you wish the "moral high ground" in any fight is to fight by the rules, and one rule around here is to keep the fight in the ring? the OT list ring Want to buy your Pack or Services from MandrakeSoft? Go to http://www.mandrakestore.com
Re: [newbie] MS is at it again... Now Really OT!!!
> This list (and life in general) are not for you if you can not make brief > excusions into philosophy (real life). > Keith (living a joy filled life) :) Sorry Keith, but it is not for you, nor me to decide what goes, or does not go on this list. The owners of the servers supporting this list, I am pretty damn sure, have the say. It is my understanding that they set up this list to be a place where people just getting into the linux-mandrake "experience" can gather and discuss those thing pertaining to Linux-Mandrake. and while there is great scope covered under that umbrella, most of the thread, beginning with Anne's remarks (imho) do not belong on the newbie list. They would be just great on the OT list tho. You can visit the URLs to change your membership status or configuration, including unsubscribing, setting digest-style delivery or disabling delivery altogether (e.g., for a vacation), and so on. In addition to the URL interfaces, you can also use email to make such changes. For more info, send a message to the '-request' address of the list (for example, [EMAIL PROTECTED]) containing just the word 'help' in the message body, and an email message will be sent to you with instructions. If you have questions, problems, comments, etc, send them to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Thanks! Want to buy your Pack or Services from MandrakeSoft? Go to http://www.mandrakestore.com
Re: [newbie] MS is at it again... Now Really OT!!!
On Wednesday 23 July 2003 11:00 pm, Cornerstone Community Farm wrote: > Carroll, You MISSED the point! > The point is in the course of REAL life, with real people > (versus robots or machines), issues involving philosophy and other non-list > discussions come up. (boats, beer, politics, you name it) > It seems odd to me that you could miss such an obvious point, as just the > fact that OT topics come up on a "newbie" list shows we are dealing with > real people, not robots:) > Keith aHa I passed the Turing test. > > On Wednesday 23 July 2003 08:02 pm, Carroll Grigsby wrote: > > On Wednesday 23 July 2003 11:23 am, Cornerstone Community Farm wrote: > > snip > > > > > > This list (and life in general) are not for you if you can not make > > > brief excusions into philosophy (real life). > > > Keith (living a joy filled life) :) > > > > Whoa, tiger. You're way off base. Who chose you to define the purpose of > > the list? Trust me, it is not for the purpose of discussing philosophy, > > religion, politics, raising organic (or orgasmic) vegtables, fishing, > > quilting, cabinet making, or ballet. There are already more than enough > > web resources for all that jazz, and Mandrake is not about to spend any > > of its scarce frances duplicating them. This list is solely a means for > > newbies, not-so-newbies, old hands and damn smart cookies to resolve > > problems and exchange news related to Mandrake Linux. Incidental comments > > on other topics are tolerated, but not encouraged. > > > > If you want to enrich your joy filled life by exchanging views on various > > OT topics, join one of the OT lists. That's why they exist. > > -- cmg Want to buy your Pack or Services from MandrakeSoft? Go to http://www.mandrakestore.com
Re: [newbie] MS is at it again... Now Really OT!!!
Carroll, You MISSED the point! The point is in the course of REAL life, with real people (versus robots or machines), issues involving philosophy and other non-list discussions come up. (boats, beer, politics, you name it) It seems odd to me that you could miss such an obvious point, as just the fact that OT topics come up on a "newbie" list shows we are dealing with real people, not robots:) Keith On Wednesday 23 July 2003 08:02 pm, Carroll Grigsby wrote: > On Wednesday 23 July 2003 11:23 am, Cornerstone Community Farm wrote: > snip > > > > This list (and life in general) are not for you if you can not make brief > > excusions into philosophy (real life). > > Keith (living a joy filled life) :) > > Whoa, tiger. You're way off base. Who chose you to define the purpose of > the list? Trust me, it is not for the purpose of discussing philosophy, > religion, politics, raising organic (or orgasmic) vegtables, fishing, > quilting, cabinet making, or ballet. There are already more than enough web > resources for all that jazz, and Mandrake is not about to spend any of its > scarce frances duplicating them. This list is solely a means for newbies, > not-so-newbies, old hands and damn smart cookies to resolve problems and > exchange news related to Mandrake Linux. Incidental comments on other > topics are tolerated, but not encouraged. > > If you want to enrich your joy filled life by exchanging views on various > OT topics, join one of the OT lists. That's why they exist. > -- cmg Want to buy your Pack or Services from MandrakeSoft? Go to http://www.mandrakestore.com
Re: [newbie] MS is at it again... Now Really OT!!!
On Wed, 23 Jul 2003 21:02:49 -0400 Carroll Grigsby <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > On Wednesday 23 July 2003 11:23 am, Cornerstone Community Farm wrote: > > > snip > > > > This list (and life in general) are not for you if you can not make > > brief excusions into philosophy (real life). > > Keith (living a joy filled life) :) > > Whoa, tiger. You're way off base. Who chose you to define the purpose > of the list? He's not; brief excursion != purpose. Todd -- Name that tune #19: On the counter by your keys was a book of numbers and your remedies. Want to buy your Pack or Services from MandrakeSoft? Go to http://www.mandrakestore.com
Re: [newbie] MS is at it again... Now Really OT!!!
On Wednesday 23 July 2003 11:23 am, Cornerstone Community Farm wrote: > snip > > This list (and life in general) are not for you if you can not make brief > excusions into philosophy (real life). > Keith (living a joy filled life) :) Whoa, tiger. You're way off base. Who chose you to define the purpose of the list? Trust me, it is not for the purpose of discussing philosophy, religion, politics, raising organic (or orgasmic) vegtables, fishing, quilting, cabinet making, or ballet. There are already more than enough web resources for all that jazz, and Mandrake is not about to spend any of its scarce frances duplicating them. This list is solely a means for newbies, not-so-newbies, old hands and damn smart cookies to resolve problems and exchange news related to Mandrake Linux. Incidental comments on other topics are tolerated, but not encouraged. If you want to enrich your joy filled life by exchanging views on various OT topics, join one of the OT lists. That's why they exist. -- cmg Want to buy your Pack or Services from MandrakeSoft? Go to http://www.mandrakestore.com
Re: [newbie] MS is at it again... Now Really OT!!!
In spite of the resistance to move this topic to the proper forum, that's where you'll find my reply if you're interested. If not, enjoy the linux topics. Want to buy your Pack or Services from MandrakeSoft? Go to http://www.mandrakestore.com
Re: [newbie] MS is at it again... Now Really OT!!!
> When humanity is smart enough to live by the initial 10 rules laid down, > and do so without deviation, revision or amendment - and live by those > same rules honourably and inherently, there will no longer be a need for > politicians, religious leaders or any such nonsense. But those initial 10 rules were constructed by religious and political hustlers, made up to control people Listen to George Carlin's standup number on the ten commandments /Anders Want to buy your Pack or Services from MandrakeSoft? Go to http://www.mandrakestore.com
Re: [newbie] MS is at it again... Now Really OT!!!
Because trying to live life believing and what we believe, do, etc. can be "put in a box" and some how separated from everything else is part of the reason the world is in such a mess. It is IMPOSSIBLE to completely isolate ethics from business (or ANY aspect of life). Situational ethics, or "if it feels good, do it", has the effect of destroying life, and part of life is Linux (and the developement, learning curve thereof), relationships, countries, etc. This list (and life in general) are not for you if you can not make brief excusions into philosophy (real life). Keith (living a joy filled life) :) On Wednesday 23 July 2003 09:00 am, Curt Tresenriter wrote: > What does this have to do with MS or Linux for that matter? > Don't know why this rubs me the wrong way but Mark has generously > provided server space for "REALLY OTs"; so why do so many insist on > wasting newbie server space and bandwidth of those who have no interest > in off topic discussions? > I would think that the least that could be done is to change the > subject line to reflect the topic being discussed so at least I could > avoid everyone's opinions on subjects which have no interest for me. > Am I alone on this? > > Sorry to blow up like that. > > On Wed, 2003-07-23 at 08:39, Stephen Kuhn wrote: > > On Wed, 2003-07-23 at 18:36, Anne Wilson wrote: > > > I can well believe it. I don't think anyone has come up with a > > > perfect system. My own solution is to put all politicians in a room > > > and shoot the lot, but then we'd probably get another crop coming up > > > like weeds > > > > > > Anne > > > > When humanity is smart enough to live by the initial 10 rules laid down, > > and do so without deviation, revision or amendment - and live by those > > same rules honourably and inherently, there will no longer be a need for > > politicians, religious leaders or any such nonsense. Want to buy your Pack or Services from MandrakeSoft? Go to http://www.mandrakestore.com
Re: [newbie] MS is at it again... Now Really OT!!!
Anders, I AGREE! By the way, could you post your address and leave your house keys under the front door mat to make my "borrowing" easier? On Wednesday 23 July 2003 09:41 am, Anders Lind wrote: > > When humanity is smart enough to live by the initial 10 rules laid down, > > and do so without deviation, revision or amendment - and live by those > > same rules honourably and inherently, there will no longer be a need for > > politicians, religious leaders or any such nonsense. > > But those initial 10 rules were constructed by religious and political > hustlers, > made up to control people > > Listen to George Carlin's standup number on the ten commandments > > /Anders Want to buy your Pack or Services from MandrakeSoft? Go to http://www.mandrakestore.com
Re: [newbie] MS is at it again... Now Really OT!!!
What does this have to do with MS or Linux for that matter? Don't know why this rubs me the wrong way but Mark has generously provided server space for "REALLY OTs"; so why do so many insist on wasting newbie server space and bandwidth of those who have no interest in off topic discussions? I would think that the least that could be done is to change the subject line to reflect the topic being discussed so at least I could avoid everyone's opinions on subjects which have no interest for me. Am I alone on this? Sorry to blow up like that. On Wed, 2003-07-23 at 08:39, Stephen Kuhn wrote: > On Wed, 2003-07-23 at 18:36, Anne Wilson wrote: > > > I can well believe it. I don't think anyone has come up with a > > perfect system. My own solution is to put all politicians in a room > > and shoot the lot, but then we'd probably get another crop coming up > > like weeds > > > > Anne > > When humanity is smart enough to live by the initial 10 rules laid down, > and do so without deviation, revision or amendment - and live by those > same rules honourably and inherently, there will no longer be a need for > politicians, religious leaders or any such nonsense. -- Registered Linux User #299730 Registered Machine #2046 *~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~60.51518 N, 150.79705 W*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~ Want to buy your Pack or Services from MandrakeSoft? Go to http://www.mandrakestore.com
Re: [newbie] MS is at it again... Now Really OT!!!
On Wed, 2003-07-23 at 18:36, Anne Wilson wrote: > I can well believe it. I don't think anyone has come up with a > perfect system. My own solution is to put all politicians in a room > and shoot the lot, but then we'd probably get another crop coming up > like weeds > > Anne When humanity is smart enough to live by the initial 10 rules laid down, and do so without deviation, revision or amendment - and live by those same rules honourably and inherently, there will no longer be a need for politicians, religious leaders or any such nonsense. -- Wed Jul 23 23:35:01 EST 2003 23:35:01 up 9 days, 15:38, 2 users, load average: 0.18, 0.29, 0.26 - |____ |kuhn media australia| | /-oo /| |'-. |http://kma.0catch.com | | .\__/ || | | || | _ / `._ \|_|_.-' |stephen kuhn| | | / \__.`=._) (_ | email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] | - linux user #:267497 linux machine #:194239 * MDK 9.1+ & RH 9 Mandrake Linux Kernel 2.4.21-11mdk Cooker for i586 - * This message was composed on a 100% Microsoft free computer * "My life is a soap opera, but who has the rights?" -- MadameX Want to buy your Pack or Services from MandrakeSoft? Go to http://www.mandrakestore.com
Re: [newbie] MS is at it again...
On Tue, 2003-07-22 at 18:49, Anne Wilson wrote: > On Tuesday 22 Jul 2003 4:37 pm, Harv Nelson wrote: > > I could never understand why recording artists did NOT immediately > > latch on to some "nickle-a-pop" revision "napster", etc. and make > > it their own. > > > I wonder if there's a catch we don't know about, or whether it's just > that they think they'll never get anywhere without the contract. It > seems to be an ideal answer, but obviously many artists aren't > convinced. > The catch is the advance. The recording co. puts up a couple of million, provides studio time, publicity, 'meet the press', grooming, video, etc., etc. THEN takes the cost of all this from the advance. Often hear 'musicians' compalining they didn't realise that when the company bought everybody in the pub a bottle of champage as a publicity stunt (e.g.), they'd be paying for it. Just about all the advance is gone & they're tied to the company. If they try to get out they don't make another album (e.g. Hazel O'Connor) Paul M. Want to buy your Pack or Services from MandrakeSoft? Go to http://www.mandrakestore.com
Re: [newbie] MS is at it again...
On Tuesday 22 Jul 2003 11:12 pm, Robin Turner wrote: > Harv Nelson wrote: > >>> or should we have the right to own what we create just like > >>> a person that creates a sculpture or paints a picture etc... > > > > Unfortunately, the creator/author of a work is seldom the person > > to reap the greatest benefit from his creativity/creation. > > Rather, the distributor of the creative work usually reaps an > > undue reward ... RIAA, auction houses, theaters, movie producers, > > publishers, etc., are examples. > > > > I could never understand why recording artists did NOT > > immediately latch on to some "nickle-a-pop" revision "napster", > > etc. and make it their own. > > Some did. > Perhaps once again the real problem is lack of publicity for the guys with less money Anne Want to buy your Pack or Services from MandrakeSoft? Go to http://www.mandrakestore.com
Re: [newbie] MS is at it again... Now Really OT!!!
On Tuesday 22 Jul 2003 11:01 pm, Todd Slater wrote: > On Tue, 22 Jul 2003 19:39:45 +0100 > > Anne Wilson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > On Tuesday 22 Jul 2003 6:05 pm, JoeHill wrote: > > > and if you think I'm a communist, you are close, and it is not > > > a crime. If it bothers you that much tho, hey, filter me! LOL! > > > > Joe - I'm not going to follow this up, no matter what you post > > next. > > > > I've just come back from Russia. You should hear what the people > > there think about communism. > > > > Anne > > I was raised and live in Appalachian Ohio, and have only *not* > lived in Appalachia for probably 3 years of my life. For those of > you not from here, it's an area characterized by > "underdevelopment," the result of years of (and continuing) > internal colonialism. > > Anne, come on over here and you'll see that our system ain't > exactly all that hot, either. Somebody from a city could probably > show you the same poverty and despair there as well. > > Todd I can well believe it. I don't think anyone has come up with a perfect system. My own solution is to put all politicians in a room and shoot the lot, but then we'd probably get another crop coming up like weeds Anne Want to buy your Pack or Services from MandrakeSoft? Go to http://www.mandrakestore.com
Re: [newbie] MS is at it again...
Curt Tresenriter wrote: On Tue, 2003-07-22 at 23:36, Brant Fitzsimmons wrote: C Tresenriter wrote: There's plenty of blame to go around. Agreed. However, there is a line at which heated discussion turns into verbal abuse. You can tell a person that their information is wrong with out attacking them personally. That is when it crosses the line. I didn't realize only one person using personal attacks, thought I saw several. It takes two to tango. It takes two to debate. Unfortunately, one can start a war. :-( One needs another to start a war Agreed. There does need to be a victim. - although *one* can certainly end a war. I'm ending my part, whatever that may be, but in the future I will not stand by and watch if someone (guess who?) again decides to attack anyone else (Anne, etc.) without cause. -- Brant Fitzsimmons [EMAIL PROTECTED] "Liberty means responsibility. That is why most men dread it." -George Bernard Shaw, Man and Superman (1903) "Maxims for Revolutionists" Want to buy your Pack or Services from MandrakeSoft? Go to http://www.mandrakestore.com
Re: [newbie] MS is at it again...
On Tuesday 22 July 2003 08:42 pm, JoeHill wrote: > On Tue, 22 Jul 2003 22:28:53 -0400 > > Brant Fitzsimmons <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> uttered: > > That may work for you, but, unfortunately, this doesn't solve the > > problem for the newbies that come to the list and find some jerk > > insulting everyone when they state something that he deems to be below > > > > his intelligence level. How many people have dropped off of this list > > > > in the past 2 weeks due to an onslaught of over-the-top arrogance and > > abuse? > > > > It's unfortunate; because Joe is also one of the most personable (when > > > > you haven't offended his god complex) and *potentially* helpful people > > > > on the list. It would be nice to see more humility and greatfullness > > for the opportunity to share our skills with some who are open to > > learning new things. > > > > We get it Joe. You're great; we're not. Now let's get back to > > business; and not drive *anyone else* away. > > You know what? You can go fuck yourself, and so can everybody on here. > > I am sick of being blamed for the flame wars on here, every time there's > a debate and I am involved, it's Joe. If there are people getting scared > away, it's Joe. Joe has a God complex because he doesn't share your > fucked up views, Joe this, Joe that. > > Fuck you all. > > Bye. Joe we are trying to see your point of view.. But unfortunately most of us can not get our heads that far up our ass Want to buy your Pack or Services from MandrakeSoft? Go to http://www.mandrakestore.com
Re: [newbie] MS is at it again...
On Tue, 2003-07-22 at 23:36, Brant Fitzsimmons wrote: > C Tresenriter wrote: > > > > > There's plenty of blame to go around. > > > Agreed. However, there is a line at which heated discussion turns into > verbal abuse. You can tell a person that their information is wrong > with out attacking them personally. That is when it crosses the line. I didn't realize only one person using personal attacks, thought I saw several. > > It takes two to tango. > It takes two to debate. Unfortunately, one can start a war. :-( One needs another to start a war - although *one* can certainly end a war. -- Registered Linux User #299730 Registered Machine #2046 *~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~60.51518 N, 150.79705 W*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~ Want to buy your Pack or Services from MandrakeSoft? Go to http://www.mandrakestore.com
Re: [newbie] MS is at it again...
C Tresenriter wrote: There's plenty of blame to go around. Agreed. However, there is a line at which heated discussion turns into verbal abuse. You can tell a person that their information is wrong with out attacking them personally. That is when it crosses the line. It takes two to tango. It takes two to debate. Unfortunately, one can start a war. :-( It's just like politics... the Republicans blame Democrats and Democrats blame Republicans. The truth, I think lies somewhere in between. Out of both parties' reach. :-P At 11:42 PM 7/22/03 -0400, you wrote: On Tue, 22 Jul 2003 22:28:53 -0400 Brant Fitzsimmons <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> uttered: > That may work for you, but, unfortunately, this doesn't solve the > problem for the newbies that come to the list and find some jerk > insulting everyone when they state something that he deems to be below > > his intelligence level. How many people have dropped off of this list > > in the past 2 weeks due to an onslaught of over-the-top arrogance and > abuse? > > It's unfortunate; because Joe is also one of the most personable (when > > you haven't offended his god complex) and *potentially* helpful people > > on the list. It would be nice to see more humility and greatfullness > for the opportunity to share our skills with some who are open to > learning new things. > > We get it Joe. You're great; we're not. Now let's get back to > business; and not drive *anyone else* away. You know what? You can go fuck yourself, and so can everybody on here. I am sick of being blamed for the flame wars on here, every time there's a debate and I am involved, it's Joe. If there are people getting scared away, it's Joe. Joe has a God complex because he doesn't share your fucked up views, Joe this, Joe that. Fuck you all. Bye. -- Joehill Registered Linux user #282046 Homepage: nodex.sytes.net ++ 23:39:39 up 23:09, 1 user, load average: 0.00, 0.00, 0.00 [Wisdom] is a tree of life to those laying hold of her, making happy each one holding her fast. -- Proverbs 3:18, NSV -- Brant Fitzsimmons [EMAIL PROTECTED] "Liberty means responsibility. That is why most men dread it." -George Bernard Shaw, Man and Superman (1903) "Maxims for Revolutionists" Want to buy your Pack or Services from MandrakeSoft? Go to http://www.mandrakestore.com
Re: [newbie] MS is at it again...
Good God. I finally get a chance to get back on for a while and this is the first thing I see. John Rigby was a saint compared to this troll. --LX On Tue, 2003-07-22 at 23:42, JoeHill wrote: > On Tue, 22 Jul 2003 22:28:53 -0400 > Brant Fitzsimmons <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> uttered: > > > That may work for you, but, unfortunately, this doesn't solve the > > problem for the newbies that come to the list and find some jerk > > insulting everyone when they state something that he deems to be below > > > > his intelligence level. How many people have dropped off of this list > > > > in the past 2 weeks due to an onslaught of over-the-top arrogance and > > abuse? > > > > It's unfortunate; because Joe is also one of the most personable (when > > > > you haven't offended his god complex) and *potentially* helpful people > > > > on the list. It would be nice to see more humility and greatfullness > > for the opportunity to share our skills with some who are open to > > learning new things. > > > > We get it Joe. You're great; we're not. Now let's get back to > > business; and not drive *anyone else* away. > > You know what? You can go fuck yourself, and so can everybody on here. > > I am sick of being blamed for the flame wars on here, every time there's > a debate and I am involved, it's Joe. If there are people getting scared > away, it's Joe. Joe has a God complex because he doesn't share your > fucked up views, Joe this, Joe that. > > Fuck you all. > > Bye. -- °°° Linux Mandrake 9.1 Kernel 2.4.21-0.13mdk "Filter That, Bitch!" --Lanman, MDK Newbie List Want to buy your Pack or Services from MandrakeSoft? Go to http://www.mandrakestore.com
Re: [newbie] MS is at it again...
On Tuesday 22 July 2003 03:12 pm, Robin Turner wrote: > Harv Nelson wrote: > >>> or should we have the right to own what we create just like > >>> a person that creates a sculpture or paints a picture etc... > > > > Unfortunately, the creator/author of a work is seldom the person to reap > > the greatest benefit from his creativity/creation. Rather, the > > distributor of the creative work usually reaps an undue reward ... RIAA, > > auction houses, theaters, movie producers, publishers, etc., are > > examples. > > > > I could never understand why recording artists did NOT immediately latch > > on to some "nickle-a-pop" revision "napster", etc. and make it their own. > > Some did. > > Sir Robin Did you notice that as the copyrights on a lotm of walt Disney stuff was about to expire they extended the copyright period? Want to buy your Pack or Services from MandrakeSoft? Go to http://www.mandrakestore.com
Re: [newbie] MS is at it again...
There's plenty of blame to go around. It takes two to tango. It's just like politics... the Republicans blame Democrats and Democrats blame Republicans. The truth, I think lies somewhere in between. At 11:42 PM 7/22/03 -0400, you wrote: On Tue, 22 Jul 2003 22:28:53 -0400 Brant Fitzsimmons <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> uttered: > That may work for you, but, unfortunately, this doesn't solve the > problem for the newbies that come to the list and find some jerk > insulting everyone when they state something that he deems to be below > > his intelligence level. How many people have dropped off of this list > > in the past 2 weeks due to an onslaught of over-the-top arrogance and > abuse? > > It's unfortunate; because Joe is also one of the most personable (when > > you haven't offended his god complex) and *potentially* helpful people > > on the list. It would be nice to see more humility and greatfullness > for the opportunity to share our skills with some who are open to > learning new things. > > We get it Joe. You're great; we're not. Now let's get back to > business; and not drive *anyone else* away. You know what? You can go fuck yourself, and so can everybody on here. I am sick of being blamed for the flame wars on here, every time there's a debate and I am involved, it's Joe. If there are people getting scared away, it's Joe. Joe has a God complex because he doesn't share your fucked up views, Joe this, Joe that. Fuck you all. Bye. -- Joehill Registered Linux user #282046 Homepage: nodex.sytes.net ++ 23:39:39 up 23:09, 1 user, load average: 0.00, 0.00, 0.00 [Wisdom] is a tree of life to those laying hold of her, making happy each one holding her fast. -- Proverbs 3:18, NSV Want to buy your Pack or Services from MandrakeSoft? Go to http://www.mandrakestore.com Want to buy your Pack or Services from MandrakeSoft? Go to http://www.mandrakestore.com
Re: [newbie] MS is at it again...
On Tue, 22 Jul 2003 22:28:53 -0400 Brant Fitzsimmons <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> uttered: > That may work for you, but, unfortunately, this doesn't solve the > problem for the newbies that come to the list and find some jerk > insulting everyone when they state something that he deems to be below > > his intelligence level. How many people have dropped off of this list > > in the past 2 weeks due to an onslaught of over-the-top arrogance and > abuse? > > It's unfortunate; because Joe is also one of the most personable (when > > you haven't offended his god complex) and *potentially* helpful people > > on the list. It would be nice to see more humility and greatfullness > for the opportunity to share our skills with some who are open to > learning new things. > > We get it Joe. You're great; we're not. Now let's get back to > business; and not drive *anyone else* away. You know what? You can go fuck yourself, and so can everybody on here. I am sick of being blamed for the flame wars on here, every time there's a debate and I am involved, it's Joe. If there are people getting scared away, it's Joe. Joe has a God complex because he doesn't share your fucked up views, Joe this, Joe that. Fuck you all. Bye. -- Joehill Registered Linux user #282046 Homepage: nodex.sytes.net ++ 23:39:39 up 23:09, 1 user, load average: 0.00, 0.00, 0.00 [Wisdom] is a tree of life to those laying hold of her, making happy each one holding her fast. -- Proverbs 3:18, NSV Want to buy your Pack or Services from MandrakeSoft? Go to http://www.mandrakestore.com
Re: [newbie] MS is at it again...
Ouch! Nice one there! Way to go Brant! ( TeeHee! ). You Da Man! Lanman *** REPLY SEPARATOR *** On 7/22/2003 at 10:28 PM Brant Fitzsimmons wrote: >Frank Roberts - SOTL wrote: > >>Hi All >> >>Every now and again emotions exceed politeness to such an extent that >pasions >>are inflamed beyond tolerance. >> >>Oh well I guess that is why the linux gods created email filters. >> >>Lets see now. >>Open Settings >>Open Configure Filters >>Set Filter >>Apply >> >>Rudeness problem disappeared. >> >That may work for you, but, unfortunately, this doesn't solve the >problem for the newbies that come to the list and find some jerk >insulting everyone when they state something that he deems to be below >his intelligence level. How many people have dropped off of this list >in the past 2 weeks due to an onslaught of over-the-top arrogance and >abuse? > >It's unfortunate; because Joe is also one of the most personable (when >you haven't offended his god complex) and *potentially* helpful people >on the list. It would be nice to see more humility and greatfullness >for the opportunity to share our skills with some who are open to >learning new things. > >We get it Joe. You're great; we're not. Now let's get back to >business; and not drive *anyone else* away. > >-- >Brant Fitzsimmons >[EMAIL PROTECTED] > >"Liberty means responsibility. That is why most men dread it." > > -George Bernard Shaw, Man and Superman (1903) > "Maxims for Revolutionists" > > > > > >Want to buy your Pack or Services from MandrakeSoft? >Go to http://www.mandrakestore.com Want to buy your Pack or Services from MandrakeSoft? Go to http://www.mandrakestore.com
Re: [newbie] MS is at it again...
Frank Roberts - SOTL wrote: Hi All Every now and again emotions exceed politeness to such an extent that pasions are inflamed beyond tolerance. Oh well I guess that is why the linux gods created email filters. Lets see now. Open Settings Open Configure Filters Set Filter Apply Rudeness problem disappeared. That may work for you, but, unfortunately, this doesn't solve the problem for the newbies that come to the list and find some jerk insulting everyone when they state something that he deems to be below his intelligence level. How many people have dropped off of this list in the past 2 weeks due to an onslaught of over-the-top arrogance and abuse? It's unfortunate; because Joe is also one of the most personable (when you haven't offended his god complex) and *potentially* helpful people on the list. It would be nice to see more humility and greatfullness for the opportunity to share our skills with some who are open to learning new things. We get it Joe. You're great; we're not. Now let's get back to business; and not drive *anyone else* away. -- Brant Fitzsimmons [EMAIL PROTECTED] "Liberty means responsibility. That is why most men dread it." -George Bernard Shaw, Man and Superman (1903) "Maxims for Revolutionists" Want to buy your Pack or Services from MandrakeSoft? Go to http://www.mandrakestore.com
Re: [newbie] MS is at it again... Now Really OT!!!
JoeHill wrote: agreeable as possible. You have, as Anne, treated me to abuse, fixating on one comment out of a whole discussion to label me a communist, and belittle me for any sympathies I may have with that philosophy. Anne's argument was not exactly cogent, and it was, IMHO, hijacking a potentially interesting (if somewhat OT) thread about IP and how programmers can be remunerated for their work ... but it wasn't abuse. Saying "Fuck off" is abuse. Keep that kind of thing for the OT list, please. Sir Robin -- "A strategy is still being formulated." Robin Turner IDMYO Bilkent Univeritesi Ankara 06533 Turkey www.bilkent.edu.tr/~robin Want to buy your Pack or Services from MandrakeSoft? Go to http://www.mandrakestore.com
Re: [newbie] MS is at it again... Now Really OT!!!
On Tue, 22 Jul 2003 16:18:31 -0400 JoeHill <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> insightfully noted: >On Tue, 22 Jul 2003 20:09:07 +0100 >Anne Wilson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> uttered: > >> > > Joe - I'm not going to follow this up, no matter what you post >> > > next. > >Oh, I see, you can cut the discussion off, but not me? > >> > > I've just come back from Russia. You should hear what the people >> > > there think about communism. > >You wouldn't know communism if you were pissing on it. > >You took a trip to Russia, it doesn't make you an expert. > >> > whatever, then don't bother communicating with me ever again. >> >> OK - you don't like to hear anything against your beliefs do you? >> >No, I don't appreciate being treated with disdain by someone whom I have >gone *out of my way* to be nice to, to help, to treat as a friend. > >You only get one chance with me, unfortunately, in that kind of >situation. > >So, fuck off. === Yup., time to unsub from this one. The ad hominems and other childish nonsense are beyond belief here!!! Who likes to wear the red bandana?? Who likes to play moderator uggg Later folks -- "The man who views the world the same at 50 as he did at 20 has wasted 30 years of his life" --Muhammad Ali Want to buy your Pack or Services from MandrakeSoft? Go to http://www.mandrakestore.com
Re: [newbie] MS is at it again...
Hi All Every now and again emotions exceed politeness to such an extent that pasions are inflamed beyond tolerance. Oh well I guess that is why the linux gods created email filters. Lets see now. Open Settings Open Configure Filters Set Filter Apply Rudeness problem disappeared. Want to buy your Pack or Services from MandrakeSoft? Go to http://www.mandrakestore.com
Re: [newbie] MS is at it again... Now Really OT!!!
On Tue, 22 Jul 2003 17:55:53 -0400 JoeHill <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> insightfully noted: >On Tue, 22 Jul 2003 17:36:07 -0400 >crak600 <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> uttered: > >> joe, if you feel so inclined to give me the same response >> as you just gave to anne, do it "offlist" as to not clog everyone >> else's mailboxes up with utter garbage and non-sense. you won't hurt >> my feelings or make me bitter by doing so either. > >*learn to read* > >I sent that to Anne offlist, *she* put it back on. *That's* what upset >me. > >What also upsets me is that *one* aspect of my belief system (communist, >anarchist, libertarianism, a mix of each) is dwelled on *incessantly* by >people who know *nothing* about those things. Might that include you??? I'm outta here. -- "The man who views the world the same at 50 as he did at 20 has wasted 30 years of his life" --Muhammad Ali Want to buy your Pack or Services from MandrakeSoft? Go to http://www.mandrakestore.com
Re: [newbie] MS is at it again... Now Really OT!!!
On Tuesday 22 July 2003 03:55 pm, JoeHill wrote: > On Wed, 23 Jul 2003 04:07:37 +0800 > > "Frankie" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> uttered: > > Anyway, enough of this rubbish.. > > If I start another one of these flamewar things Stephen will > > never forgive me.. > > Too late, arsewipe. I tried to take it offlist, Anne brought it back on, > and here you are continuing it. > > Neither of you know the slightest thing about communism, gleaning all > you think you know from network news and tabloids. > > But, frankly, this was never about communism. *You* called me a > communist, and I made a flippant remark about being "not quite". > > *You* continue this diatribe against communism and everything that > threatens your tiny, pathetic little existence, if you will, just don't > try to paint me as the agitator. > > From you it doesn't surprise me, but for Anne to post a singularly > > trollish comment like: > > > Joe - I'm not going to follow this up, no matter what you post > > > next. > > > > > > I've just come back from Russia. You should hear what the people > > > there think about communism. > > I am quite surprised and dismayed. I have always treated her with the > utmost respect and even admiration. Now I see her true colours, posting > a private communication on a public forum, thus aggravating the > situation further. > > As far as I am concerned, you are both to be deeply ashamed for this > kind of attack. I have made every effort with you, Frankie boy, over the > last couple of days since you helped me with my mailserver, to be as > agreeable as possible. You have, as Anne, treated me to abuse, fixating > on one comment out of a whole discussion to label me a communist, and > belittle me for any sympathies I may have with that philosophy. > > To hell with you both then, I don't need help from people who cannot > use their own best judgement to avoid heated topics, as I have made a > serious effort to do of late, well, except on the OT list. > > I'm not interested in your ill-informed opinions on communism, your > mockery of my beliefs, or your childish insults. > > Buh-bye. Ats ok, I find that a good many of the flame wars appear to be around joe hill, --filtered-- -- Dennis M. linux user #180842 Want to buy your Pack or Services from MandrakeSoft? Go to http://www.mandrakestore.com
Re: [newbie] MS is at it again... Now Really OT!!!
Anne Wilson wrote: On Tuesday 22 Jul 2003 7:51 pm, you wrote: On Tue, 22 Jul 2003 19:39:45 +0100 Anne Wilson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> uttered: Joe - I'm not going to follow this up, no matter what you post next. I've just come back from Russia. You should hear what the people there think about communism. whatever, then don't bother communicating with me ever again. OK - you don't like to hear anything against your beliefs do you? Now can we get back to linux? Or take this to the OT list? It's an interesting thread, but I'm not sure if it's relevant to this list. -- "A strategy is still being formulated." Robin Turner IDMYO Bilkent Univeritesi Ankara 06533 Turkey www.bilkent.edu.tr/~robin Want to buy your Pack or Services from MandrakeSoft? Go to http://www.mandrakestore.com
Re: [newbie] MS is at it again...
Frankie wrote: Does translation to 1's and 0's make something worthless? because the same can be done for your genitical profile :-) Bad analogy. I didn't design my own genes. Sir Robin -- "A strategy is still being formulated." Robin Turner IDMYO Bilkent Univeritesi Ankara 06533 Turkey www.bilkent.edu.tr/~robin Want to buy your Pack or Services from MandrakeSoft? Go to http://www.mandrakestore.com
Re: [newbie] MS is at it again... Now Really OT!!!
On Tue, 22 Jul 2003 17:36:07 -0400 crak600 <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> uttered: > joe, if you feel so inclined to give me the same response > as you just gave to anne, do it "offlist" as to not clog everyone > else's mailboxes up with utter garbage and non-sense. you won't hurt > my feelings or make me bitter by doing so either. *learn to read* I sent that to Anne offlist, *she* put it back on. *That's* what upset me. What also upsets me is that *one* aspect of my belief system (communist, anarchist, libertarianism, a mix of each) is dwelled on *incessantly* by people who know *nothing* about those things. What upsets me is when I am discussing a narrow point of legality, and people start bringing in examples about plumbers and artists and programmers, when all I am talking about is copyright law. What puts me right over the edge is when I try to end it and people just keep going on and on and on, oh, so *you* are supposed to get the last word on the list, eh? Reply to you offlist so you can have your say and slag me in public and I can't defend myself in the same way? Ya, right. Not bloody likely. This will end when you and your ilk get it through your thick skulls that belittling people's philosophies, notice I said belittling, not *debating* (requiring knowledge, insight, and study), is not to be tolerated, and *will not be tolerated*. If you want to debate, fine, but when I hear shit like this: "The best communists are those that live in non communist countries. They never see/feel the real hand of it on them, so they get all fanatical about it n stuff its really very very interesting to watch, I recommend it. The ones that live in the real communist countries mostly seem to hate it after awhile.. go figure.. It probably has to do with it usually being forced on them by a minority. I think two things.. 1. Joe hates microsoft for the wrong reasons. 2. Joe likes linux for the wrong reasons too. (free doesn't necessarily mean no cost)" Courtesy of dickhead up there, I feel it is within my rights to respond. Anyone who has a problem with this can kiss my ass. -- Joehill Registered Linux user #282046 Homepage: nodex.sytes.net ++ 17:44:08 up 17:13, 5 users, load average: 0.03, 0.08, 0.06 A lifetime isn't nearly long enough to figure out what it's all about. Want to buy your Pack or Services from MandrakeSoft? Go to http://www.mandrakestore.com
Re: [newbie] MS is at it again... Now Really OT!!!
On Tuesday 22 July 2003 04:18 pm, JoeHill wrote: > No, I don't appreciate being treated with disdain by someone whom I have > gone *out of my way* to be nice to, to help, to treat as a friend. > > You only get one chance with me, unfortunately, in that kind of > situation. > > So, fuck off. ok, so now i have a questionwhere is the REAL newbie linux list? you know, the list where people try to help other people out when they can't figure something out on their own? personally, i don't mind things going onto a tangent and things other than linux (or whatever the list may be for) being brought up (for this list i would think anything computer related whether it be software, hardware, news, lawsuits, etc). but the name calling and all this other BS is just too much. i understand expressing your views on something, but telling someone to "fuck off" really makes me wonder if i'm on the right mailing list or not. having opinions and knowing how to express them is a wonderful thing to be able to do, but i believe that in kindergarten they start teaching you to not call people names or the like when you don't agree with them or their views. hey, i'm not perfect, i'm not on a soapbox, i'm not preaching, but this is turning into childish non-sense. grow up or go to aol or yahoo chat rooms to bicker with people and act like children. i'm on this list to try to learn something and get tips/pointers/help when i'm stuck on whatever it may be that i can't do on my ownnot to feel like i'm reading a transcription of my children arguing with each other. i have a feeling joe doesn't like me either based on his reply to what i posted about common sense when that kazaa thread started going way off topic. i don't think he knows what common sense is, as noted by the comments he just directed to Anne. joe, if you feel so inclined to give me the same response as you just gave to anne, do it "offlist" as to not clog everyone else's mailboxes up with utter garbage and non-sense. you won't hurt my feelings or make me bitter by doing so either. can we get back to linux and other computer related stuff now? Mike Want to buy your Pack or Services from MandrakeSoft? Go to http://www.mandrakestore.com
Re: [newbie] MS is at it again... Now Really OT!!!
On Wed, 23 Jul 2003 04:07:37 +0800 "Frankie" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> uttered: > Anyway, enough of this rubbish.. > If I start another one of these flamewar things Stephen will > never forgive me.. Too late, arsewipe. I tried to take it offlist, Anne brought it back on, and here you are continuing it. Neither of you know the slightest thing about communism, gleaning all you think you know from network news and tabloids. But, frankly, this was never about communism. *You* called me a communist, and I made a flippant remark about being "not quite". *You* continue this diatribe against communism and everything that threatens your tiny, pathetic little existence, if you will, just don't try to paint me as the agitator. >From you it doesn't surprise me, but for Anne to post a singularly trollish comment like: > > Joe - I'm not going to follow this up, no matter what you post > > next. > > > > I've just come back from Russia. You should hear what the people > > there think about communism. I am quite surprised and dismayed. I have always treated her with the utmost respect and even admiration. Now I see her true colours, posting a private communication on a public forum, thus aggravating the situation further. As far as I am concerned, you are both to be deeply ashamed for this kind of attack. I have made every effort with you, Frankie boy, over the last couple of days since you helped me with my mailserver, to be as agreeable as possible. You have, as Anne, treated me to abuse, fixating on one comment out of a whole discussion to label me a communist, and belittle me for any sympathies I may have with that philosophy. To hell with you both then, I don't need help from people who cannot use their own best judgement to avoid heated topics, as I have made a serious effort to do of late, well, except on the OT list. I'm not interested in your ill-informed opinions on communism, your mockery of my beliefs, or your childish insults. Buh-bye. -- Joehill Registered Linux user #282046 Homepage: nodex.sytes.net ++ 16:42:02 up 16:11, 5 users, load average: 0.16, 0.05, 0.01 He who knows, does not speak. He who speaks, does not know. -- Lao Tsu Want to buy your Pack or Services from MandrakeSoft? Go to http://www.mandrakestore.com
Re: [newbie] MS is at it again... Now Really OT!!!
On Tuesday 22 Jul 2003 9:18 pm, JoeHill wrote: [...] > No, I don't appreciate being treated with disdain by someone whom I have > gone *out of my way* to be nice to, to help, to treat as a friend. > > You only get one chance with me, unfortunately, in that kind of > situation. > > So, fuck off. Wow, you really are a prick aren't you? The mails that I replied to earlier I now notice were direct to you. Despite being polite you chose to be abusive in return. Your reply to Anne, who is unfailingly courteous, not to mention one of the regulars who will help anyone with a problem, says far more about you than you can imagine. I'd like to imagine you as a sulky teenager which would at least provide some sort of poor excuse for you, unfortunately I suspect the rreality falls in the first line of this reply. regards Daryl -- Marriage is the waste-paper basket of the emotions. Want to buy your Pack or Services from MandrakeSoft? Go to http://www.mandrakestore.com
RE: [newbie] MS is at it again... Now Really OT!!!
I like you Anne, you have what my grandpappy called spunk :-) I agree, he doesn't like to listen, he likes to sprout... The best communists are those that live in non communist countries. They never see/feel the real hand of it on them, so they get all fanatical about it n stuff its really very very interesting to watch, I recommend it. The ones that live in the real communist countries mostly seem to hate it after awhile.. go figure.. It probably has to do with it usually being forced on them by a minority. I think two things.. 1. Joe hates microsoft for the wrong reasons. 2. Joe likes linux for the wrong reasons too. (free doesn't necessarily mean no cost) Anyway, enough of this rubbish.. If I start another one of these flamewar things Stephen will never forgive me.. I wouldn't have seen this at all cos I consulted with those wiser then myself and received advice to the effect that Joes posts should be sent straight to my bit bucket (notice I said "my" bit bucket, i am not suggestion you all ignore him.. they I would certainly not be offended if you did. :-) I would never ignore anne's posts though... :-) so here I am. Back to linux it is... regards franki htmlfixit.com PS, hopefully Joe has filtered me, so if no-one responds to this, he will never know I sent it.. so please don't :-) -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Behalf Of Anne Wilson Sent: Wednesday, 23 July 2003 3:09 AM To: newbie Subject: Re: [newbie] MS is at it again... Now Really OT!!! On Tuesday 22 Jul 2003 7:51 pm, you wrote: > On Tue, 22 Jul 2003 19:39:45 +0100 > > Anne Wilson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> uttered: > > Joe - I'm not going to follow this up, no matter what you post > > next. > > > > I've just come back from Russia. You should hear what the people > > there think about communism. > > whatever, then don't bother communicating with me ever again. OK - you don't like to hear anything against your beliefs do you? Now can we get back to linux? Anne Want to buy your Pack or Services from MandrakeSoft? Go to http://www.mandrakestore.com
Re: [newbie] MS is at it again... Now Really OT!!!
On Tue, 22 Jul 2003 20:09:07 +0100 Anne Wilson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> uttered: > > > Joe - I'm not going to follow this up, no matter what you post > > > next. Oh, I see, you can cut the discussion off, but not me? > > > I've just come back from Russia. You should hear what the people > > > there think about communism. You wouldn't know communism if you were pissing on it. You took a trip to Russia, it doesn't make you an expert. > > whatever, then don't bother communicating with me ever again. > > OK - you don't like to hear anything against your beliefs do you? > No, I don't appreciate being treated with disdain by someone whom I have gone *out of my way* to be nice to, to help, to treat as a friend. You only get one chance with me, unfortunately, in that kind of situation. So, fuck off. -- Joehill Registered Linux user #282046 Homepage: nodex.sytes.net ++ 16:15:06 up 15:44, 5 users, load average: 0.08, 0.06, 0.01 It is only with the heart one can see clearly; what is essential is invisible to the eye. -- The Fox, 'The Little Prince" Want to buy your Pack or Services from MandrakeSoft? Go to http://www.mandrakestore.com
Re: [newbie] MS is at it again... Now Really OT!!!
On Tuesday 22 Jul 2003 7:51 pm, you wrote: > On Tue, 22 Jul 2003 19:39:45 +0100 > > Anne Wilson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> uttered: > > Joe - I'm not going to follow this up, no matter what you post > > next. > > > > I've just come back from Russia. You should hear what the people > > there think about communism. > > whatever, then don't bother communicating with me ever again. OK - you don't like to hear anything against your beliefs do you? Now can we get back to linux? Anne Want to buy your Pack or Services from MandrakeSoft? Go to http://www.mandrakestore.com
Re: [newbie] MS is at it again... Now Really OT!!!
On Tuesday 22 Jul 2003 6:05 pm, JoeHill wrote: > and if you think I'm a communist, you are close, and it is not a > crime. If it bothers you that much tho, hey, filter me! LOL! Joe - I'm not going to follow this up, no matter what you post next. I've just come back from Russia. You should hear what the people there think about communism. Anne Want to buy your Pack or Services from MandrakeSoft? Go to http://www.mandrakestore.com
Re: [newbie] MS is at it again...
On Wed, 23 Jul 2003 00:38:01 +0800 "Frankie" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> uttered: look, I am not looking for a showdown on "what is information". That has been an ongoing debate for decades and will continue no doubt. My point has a very narrow focus, a legal one, on which I am backed up by hundreds of years of legal precedent, the EFF, the FSF, and OS advocates in general. Information cannot be *stolen*, it is an autonomous resource, and to try to define ownership is folly and futile. and if you think I'm a communist, you are close, and it is not a crime. If it bothers you that much tho, hey, filter me! LOL! -- Joehill Registered Linux user #282046 Homepage: nodex.sytes.net ++ 13:01:55 up 12:31, 5 users, load average: 0.03, 0.06, 0.03 We're all in this alone. -- Lily Tomlin Want to buy your Pack or Services from MandrakeSoft? Go to http://www.mandrakestore.com
Re: [newbie] MS is at it again...
On Tuesday 22 Jul 2003 5:12 pm, JoeHill wrote: > On Tue, 22 Jul 2003 16:49:23 +0100 > > Anne Wilson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> uttered: > > I wonder if there's a catch we don't know about, or whether it's > > just that they think they'll never get anywhere without the > > contract. It seems to be an ideal answer, but obviously many > > artists aren't convinced. > > Further: > > http://www.eff.org/share/compensation.php > > interesting model. I strongly believe that Open Source is the sol'n > to many conundrums such as music, software, and ideas in general. > Everyone is too focused on "mine mine mine" like 3 yr olds in a > sandbox. It's time capitalism grew up! An interesting article. There's a possible weakness in the huge variety of models, but choice for the artist is a plus. I'm a bit dubious about the 'Ad Revenue Sharing', as it could easily turn into yet another way of giving micro amounts to the artist and keeping the rest for the site. I'm not too keen, either, on having governments fix the fee (Individual Compulsory Licenses). Still, that leaves several others that could work. Apart from the distributor rip-off, the other often-heard argument is that you only really want one or two tracks from an album. So, serious question from one who no longer follows much in the music line, how much would you pay per track? Personally I would like to be able to listen for, say, 1/2 minute free of charge before buying on a per track basis. This would enable me to buy artists and tracks that I have not heard before, with confidence. I would almost certainly buy more if I could do this. I can't bring myself to pay £16 or whatever on the off chance that I would play a cd more than a couple of times, so I don't buy many. Anne Want to buy your Pack or Services from MandrakeSoft? Go to http://www.mandrakestore.com
RE: [newbie] MS is at it again...
Dude, here is the thing.. Your opinion of what is information appears to be different from everyone elses. Define information?? I think your current definition is flawed, but lets here it from your own lips. A program can manipulate information and many of them do.. the program itself however is NOT information since it conveys no import by itself, its a tool. IT would appear that you think programmers that want to protect their work should NOT use OSS as a means to do that.. after all, If I give you the binary instead of the src, its much harder to define it as info. (or better, make software that will only run on one machine and that copies will not run on other systems) That's it,, burn your mandrake disks now you silly boy, that's microsnot talk. Simple fact is.. If I break into your house and take your telly (do you have a good one??? also, what is your address???) Its stealing and If I got caught, I'd expect to be prosecuted.. why? because the real owner of that telly paid for it and it was his (or hers)... When I create something that people want.. (a basic principle of commerce the world over) it has whatever value I assign it.. It is mine, and I own it.. Just like a sculpture, a chair a boat or anything else I create. If someone buys it. They own the rights to it. the rights being that they can sell it or give it away as long as they do so to only one person or company and give up their own copy.. Just like any other possession. Those are the rights I give to someone when I sell my software as non GPL. I agree Microsnot has gone way to far in their "rights" as you never really have any accept that you can USE their software for as long as THEY deem appropriate and under their constraints.. but it IS their right to do so.. It's everyone else's right to not use Microsnot software. (which I suggest wherever possible). To say that stealing things like programs, books, movies should be a non criminal act is tell every author, singer, movie house etc that they should only expect to sell something once and have that one person share it with everyone else.. That's fine, but imagine how much things would start costing. You have not thought that though Joe, if your policy was put into effect, there would be precious little money in those fields and whole industries would fail, no movies, no books, no songs, sounds like a great world to me. (NOT) I think the way the recording industry are trying to enforce it is the wrong approach.. but I don't think anyone intelligent can deny their right to their works. Would they have spent 300 million making the titanic had it been legal to give it away or sell it for 2 bucks a pop?? you can't take ten million or more people to court.. its just not practical. But our rights need protecting so what to do?? Joe, have you written software? a book? Something else that you class as "info" and had it stolen??? I dount it from your comments here. Funny thing was I agreed with the initial points, but everything you said after that is just rubbish. The way you say it, is that the small guy should get out of business if he/she can't afford to sue those that infringe his rights?? so only companies like microsnot can stay in business... no thanks i don't want to live in that world.. Its only free to sue if you win.. and there is always the risk you won't. Multiply that by thousands and you have a case where only the recording industry, microsnot or the movie industry can afford to stay in business.. Anyway, I am not gonna get dragged into this again,, fool me once, shame on you.. fool me twice shame on me. That was my last word on the subject, so go ahead Joe, convince us of your intelligence or lack thereof. My experiance from the OT list is that you are about 2mm from communism in your outlook.. So you probably think that work should be shared.. fine, if the government feed me, clothed me, paid my expenses, I'd think about it.. otherwise I have a right to expect to earn a living just like a plumber or an electrician. regards Franki -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Behalf Of JoeHill Sent: Tuesday, 22 July 2003 11:39 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [newbie] MS is at it again... On Tue, 22 Jul 2003 22:33:21 +0800 "Frankie" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> uttered: > Once again Joe, we find ourselves at the opposite end of > the spectrum.. no, no, no, you are misunderstanding me. > so you are saying that any creative works that is not a painting > or sculture or other (real world item) has no value?? not at *all*. things have the value we give them. *All* I am saying pertains to *legal* definitions, how they are and how they can be improved. No one *ever* pays attention! > I actually write small programs, and most often I give them > away > for free.. but not always.. > > If I spend alot of
Re: [newbie] MS is at it again...
On Tue, 22 Jul 2003 16:49:23 +0100 Anne Wilson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> uttered: > I wonder if there's a catch we don't know about, or whether it's just > that they think they'll never get anywhere without the contract. It > seems to be an ideal answer, but obviously many artists aren't > convinced. More and more artists are going this route. This is what frightens the RIAA so very much, their whole business is based on promotion and distribution. Chuck D. from Public Enemy is a real pioneer in this area, but there are many others: http://www.boycott-riaa.com/artists/ -- Joehill Registered Linux user #282046 Homepage: nodex.sytes.net ++ 12:02:49 up 11:32, 5 users, load average: 0.09, 0.08, 0.08 To lead people, you must follow behind. -- Lao Tsu Want to buy your Pack or Services from MandrakeSoft? Go to http://www.mandrakestore.com
Re: [newbie] MS is at it again...
On Tuesday 22 Jul 2003 4:37 pm, Harv Nelson wrote: > >>or should we have the right to own what we create just like > >>a person that creates a sculpture or paints a picture etc... > > Unfortunately, the creator/author of a work is seldom the person to > reap the greatest benefit from his creativity/creation. Rather, > the distributor of the creative work usually reaps an undue reward > ... RIAA, auction houses, theaters, movie producers, publishers, > etc., are examples. > > I could never understand why recording artists did NOT immediately > latch on to some "nickle-a-pop" revision "napster", etc. and make > it their own. > I wonder if there's a catch we don't know about, or whether it's just that they think they'll never get anywhere without the contract. It seems to be an ideal answer, but obviously many artists aren't convinced. Anne > > Frankie wrote: > >Once again Joe, we find ourselves at the opposite end of > >the spectrum.. > > > >so you are saying that any creative works that is not a > >painting > >or sculture or other (real world item) has no value?? > > > >so Lord of the rings should have always been free because > >its just > >"information"??? > > > >I actually write small programs, and most often I give them > >away > >for free.. but not always.. > > > >If I spend alot of time working on a script, i reserve the > >right to > >charge for it if I want to.. after all, I spend the hours > >and hours > >writing it. > > > >Also, if 1000's of people start handing a script I wrote > >that is not > >free to all their mates.. > > > >I am just a small guy, I can't afford to do anything about > >it. > >So they would all get away with it.. > > > >I know you probably don't care.. because you didn't spend > >days working > >on it.. but having something I worked so hard on totally > >devalued makes > >me very angry.. > > > >If I give it away for free like I normally do, thats fine, > >it was my > >choice.. but to have you decide its "information" and just > >hand it out > >is wrong and since I can't afford to go after anyone for it, > >they would > >all get away with it if there were not laws protecting me. > > > >So what is the answer Joe, you can't have it both ways.. > >should we all > >stop programmign potentially useful software because its not > >worth > >anything... or should we have the right to own what we > >create just like > >a person that creates a sculpture or paints a picture etc... > > > >Does translation to 1's and 0's make something worthless? > >because the same can be done for your genitical profile > > > >:-) > > > >regards > > > > > >Franki > >htmlfixit.com > > > > > > > > > >-Original Message- > > From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > >[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Behalf Of JoeHill > >Sent: Tuesday, 22 July 2003 9:07 PM > >To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > >Subject: Re: [newbie] MS is at it again... > > > > > >On Tue, 22 Jul 2003 13:33:42 +0100 > > > >Anne Wilson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> uttered: > >>The result of a > >>programmer's work is *not* information, > > > >Really? Looks like bits and bytes to me, but then I am no > >programmer. > > > >The programmer is being paid for his/her efforts and time, > >in the end. > >Whether he or she releases the source code is up to him/her. > > > >The point is, it is up to creative types, artists, > >programmers, what > >have you, to enforce their own copyrights, it is not a > >matter for the > >criminal law. Sure, downloading Photoshop for free is not > >"right", but > >it is not a criminal offense. No existing property was > >actually stolen, > >no quantifiable harm has been done. That is why the BSA's > >estimates of > >how much money is lost each year to software piracy is such > >a load of > >bull. Who's to say if I didn't download it I would actually > >buy it? > > > >This is why I swithed from warez pirate to OS Linux, I > >didn't want to > >get into that whole sha-mozzle. It's a dead end street. > > > > > > > >-- > >Joehill > >Registered Linux user #282046 > >Homepage: nodex.sytes.net > >++ > > 09:01:20 up 8:31, 1 user, load average: 0.18, 0.21, 0.14 > >Reality does not exist -- yet. > > > > > > > > > > > >-- > >-- > > > >Want to buy your Pack or Services from MandrakeSoft? > >Go to http://www.mandrakestore.com Want to buy your Pack or Services from MandrakeSoft? Go to http://www.mandrakestore.com
Re: [newbie] MS is at it again...
On Tue, 22 Jul 2003 16:49:23 +0100 Anne Wilson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> uttered: > I wonder if there's a catch we don't know about, or whether it's just > that they think they'll never get anywhere without the contract. It > seems to be an ideal answer, but obviously many artists aren't > convinced. Further: http://www.eff.org/share/compensation.php interesting model. I strongly believe that Open Source is the sol'n to many conundrums such as music, software, and ideas in general. Everyone is too focused on "mine mine mine" like 3 yr olds in a sandbox. It's time capitalism grew up! -- Joehill Registered Linux user #282046 Homepage: nodex.sytes.net ++ 12:10:08 up 11:39, 5 users, load average: 0.13, 0.14, 0.10 Expansion means complexity; and complexity decay. Want to buy your Pack or Services from MandrakeSoft? Go to http://www.mandrakestore.com
Re: [newbie] MS is at it again...
On Tue, 22 Jul 2003 10:37:43 -0500 Harv Nelson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> uttered: > Unfortunately, the creator/author of a work is seldom the person to > reap the greatest benefit from his creativity/creation. Rather, the > distributor of the creative work usually reaps an undue reward ... > RIAA, auction houses, theaters, movie producers, publishers, etc., are > examples. > > I could never understand why recording artists did NOT immediately > latch on to some "nickle-a-pop" revision "napster", etc. and make it > their own. BINGO! -- Joehill Registered Linux user #282046 Homepage: nodex.sytes.net ++ 11:50:01 up 11:19, 5 users, load average: 0.11, 0.18, 0.10 Getting there is only half as far as getting there and back. Want to buy your Pack or Services from MandrakeSoft? Go to http://www.mandrakestore.com
Re: [newbie] MS is at it again...
> If I spend alot of time working on a script, i reserve the > right to > charge for it if I want to.. after all, I spend the hours > and hours > writing it. Which you have with the GPL although you cannot demand it, BUT I do agree in the sense that programmer has the right to use whichever license he/she feels for his software, I personally would prefer if GPL or the BSD License would be used. I guess this is the point you are trying make as well /Anders Want to buy your Pack or Services from MandrakeSoft? Go to http://www.mandrakestore.com
Re: [newbie] MS is at it again...
or should we have the right to own what we create just like a person that creates a sculpture or paints a picture etc... Unfortunately, the creator/author of a work is seldom the person to reap the greatest benefit from his creativity/creation. Rather, the distributor of the creative work usually reaps an undue reward ... RIAA, auction houses, theaters, movie producers, publishers, etc., are examples. I could never understand why recording artists did NOT immediately latch on to some "nickle-a-pop" revision "napster", etc. and make it their own. Harv Frankie wrote: Once again Joe, we find ourselves at the opposite end of the spectrum.. so you are saying that any creative works that is not a painting or sculture or other (real world item) has no value?? so Lord of the rings should have always been free because its just "information"??? I actually write small programs, and most often I give them away for free.. but not always.. If I spend alot of time working on a script, i reserve the right to charge for it if I want to.. after all, I spend the hours and hours writing it. Also, if 1000's of people start handing a script I wrote that is not free to all their mates.. I am just a small guy, I can't afford to do anything about it. So they would all get away with it.. I know you probably don't care.. because you didn't spend days working on it.. but having something I worked so hard on totally devalued makes me very angry.. If I give it away for free like I normally do, thats fine, it was my choice.. but to have you decide its "information" and just hand it out is wrong and since I can't afford to go after anyone for it, they would all get away with it if there were not laws protecting me. So what is the answer Joe, you can't have it both ways.. should we all stop programmign potentially useful software because its not worth anything... or should we have the right to own what we create just like a person that creates a sculpture or paints a picture etc... Does translation to 1's and 0's make something worthless? because the same can be done for your genitical profile :-) regards Franki htmlfixit.com -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Behalf Of JoeHill Sent: Tuesday, 22 July 2003 9:07 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [newbie] MS is at it again... On Tue, 22 Jul 2003 13:33:42 +0100 Anne Wilson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> uttered: The result of a programmer's work is *not* information, Really? Looks like bits and bytes to me, but then I am no programmer. The programmer is being paid for his/her efforts and time, in the end. Whether he or she releases the source code is up to him/her. The point is, it is up to creative types, artists, programmers, what have you, to enforce their own copyrights, it is not a matter for the criminal law. Sure, downloading Photoshop for free is not "right", but it is not a criminal offense. No existing property was actually stolen, no quantifiable harm has been done. That is why the BSA's estimates of how much money is lost each year to software piracy is such a load of bull. Who's to say if I didn't download it I would actually buy it? This is why I swithed from warez pirate to OS Linux, I didn't want to get into that whole sha-mozzle. It's a dead end street. -- Joehill Registered Linux user #282046 Homepage: nodex.sytes.net ++ 09:01:20 up 8:31, 1 user, load average: 0.18, 0.21, 0.14 Reality does not exist -- yet. Want to buy your Pack or Services from MandrakeSoft? Go to http://www.mandrakestore.com Want to buy your Pack or Services from MandrakeSoft? Go to http://www.mandrakestore.com
Re: [newbie] MS is at it again...
On Tue, 22 Jul 2003 22:33:21 +0800 "Frankie" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> uttered: > Once again Joe, we find ourselves at the opposite end of > the spectrum.. no, no, no, you are misunderstanding me. > so you are saying that any creative works that is not a painting > or sculture or other (real world item) has no value?? not at *all*. things have the value we give them. *All* I am saying pertains to *legal* definitions, how they are and how they can be improved. No one *ever* pays attention! > I actually write small programs, and most often I give them > away > for free.. but not always.. > > If I spend alot of time working on a script, i reserve the > right to > charge for it if I want to.. after all, I spend the hours > and hours > writing it. of course you do, and rightly so, but if someone downloads the app and misappropriates it, *it is not a criminal offense*, repeat after me, it is a *civil* matter of contracts and copyrights!! > Also, if 1000's of people start handing a script I wrote > that is not > free to all their mates.. > > I am just a small guy, I can't afford to do anything about > it. > So they would all get away with it.. Tough. It's the way the game is played. If you are not willing to defend your licenses and copyrights then get out of business. Sorry, I don't mean to sound heartless...and if you take someone to court for breach of contract or license, you don't pay a cent, they do. > I know you probably don't care.. because you didn't spend > days working > on it.. but having something I worked so hard on totally > devalued makes > me very angry.. I *do* care, and you have no reason to be angry at me, I am arguing a very specific point here, and people have taken it completely the wrong way. > If I give it away for free like I normally do, thats fine, > it was my > choice.. but to have you decide its "information" and just > hand it out > is wrong and since I can't afford to go after anyone for it, > they would > all get away with it if there were not laws protecting me. There *are* laws protecting you, just not criminal ones! > or should we have the right to own what we create just like > a person that creates a sculpture or paints a picture etc... ah, now there's the rub. can you "own" information? Quite clearly not. What you *can* own is the rights to use said info in your work, and if you offer that info (app) for public consumption, then you do so contractually. If someone violates that contract, fine, sue him. > Does translation to 1's and 0's make something worthless? > because the same can be done for your genitical profile No, but it makes it information and therefore no longer a matter for the criminal courts. Of course it has value, just don't ask the F.B. f'ckn I. to arrest people who appropriate your code! As far as "genetical" code, of course no one should own that, it is a product of nature, we only tinker here and there. Owning genetic code is ridiculous and, quite frankly, a frightening concept. -- Joehill Registered Linux user #282046 Homepage: nodex.sytes.net ++ 11:25:17 up 10:55, 5 users, load average: 0.00, 0.05, 0.10 Murphy was an optimist. Want to buy your Pack or Services from MandrakeSoft? Go to http://www.mandrakestore.com
RE: [newbie] MS is at it again...
Once again Joe, we find ourselves at the opposite end of the spectrum.. so you are saying that any creative works that is not a painting or sculture or other (real world item) has no value?? so Lord of the rings should have always been free because its just "information"??? I actually write small programs, and most often I give them away for free.. but not always.. If I spend alot of time working on a script, i reserve the right to charge for it if I want to.. after all, I spend the hours and hours writing it. Also, if 1000's of people start handing a script I wrote that is not free to all their mates.. I am just a small guy, I can't afford to do anything about it. So they would all get away with it.. I know you probably don't care.. because you didn't spend days working on it.. but having something I worked so hard on totally devalued makes me very angry.. If I give it away for free like I normally do, thats fine, it was my choice.. but to have you decide its "information" and just hand it out is wrong and since I can't afford to go after anyone for it, they would all get away with it if there were not laws protecting me. So what is the answer Joe, you can't have it both ways.. should we all stop programmign potentially useful software because its not worth anything... or should we have the right to own what we create just like a person that creates a sculpture or paints a picture etc... Does translation to 1's and 0's make something worthless? because the same can be done for your genitical profile :-) regards Franki htmlfixit.com -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Behalf Of JoeHill Sent: Tuesday, 22 July 2003 9:07 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [newbie] MS is at it again... On Tue, 22 Jul 2003 13:33:42 +0100 Anne Wilson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> uttered: > The result of a > programmer's work is *not* information, Really? Looks like bits and bytes to me, but then I am no programmer. The programmer is being paid for his/her efforts and time, in the end. Whether he or she releases the source code is up to him/her. The point is, it is up to creative types, artists, programmers, what have you, to enforce their own copyrights, it is not a matter for the criminal law. Sure, downloading Photoshop for free is not "right", but it is not a criminal offense. No existing property was actually stolen, no quantifiable harm has been done. That is why the BSA's estimates of how much money is lost each year to software piracy is such a load of bull. Who's to say if I didn't download it I would actually buy it? This is why I swithed from warez pirate to OS Linux, I didn't want to get into that whole sha-mozzle. It's a dead end street. -- Joehill Registered Linux user #282046 Homepage: nodex.sytes.net ++ 09:01:20 up 8:31, 1 user, load average: 0.18, 0.21, 0.14 Reality does not exist -- yet. Want to buy your Pack or Services from MandrakeSoft? Go to http://www.mandrakestore.com
Re: [newbie] MS is at it again...
On Tue, 22 Jul 2003 13:33:42 +0100 Anne Wilson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> uttered: > The result of a > programmer's work is *not* information, Really? Looks like bits and bytes to me, but then I am no programmer. The programmer is being paid for his/her efforts and time, in the end. Whether he or she releases the source code is up to him/her. The point is, it is up to creative types, artists, programmers, what have you, to enforce their own copyrights, it is not a matter for the criminal law. Sure, downloading Photoshop for free is not "right", but it is not a criminal offense. No existing property was actually stolen, no quantifiable harm has been done. That is why the BSA's estimates of how much money is lost each year to software piracy is such a load of bull. Who's to say if I didn't download it I would actually buy it? This is why I swithed from warez pirate to OS Linux, I didn't want to get into that whole sha-mozzle. It's a dead end street. -- Joehill Registered Linux user #282046 Homepage: nodex.sytes.net ++ 09:01:20 up 8:31, 1 user, load average: 0.18, 0.21, 0.14 Reality does not exist -- yet. Want to buy your Pack or Services from MandrakeSoft? Go to http://www.mandrakestore.com
Re: [newbie] MS is at it again...
On Tuesday 22 Jul 2003 1:01 pm, JoeHill wrote: > On Tue, 22 Jul 2003 12:48:28 +0100 > > Anne Wilson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> uttered: > > if you work 40 hours/week or more on something, don't you expect > > to get paid? > > for me, that's a *big* if! :))) but of course, for my time and > effort, not for my info. Trying to cage info is like trying to > hogtie a snake. So how do you pay a programmer for his time and effots? Anne Want to buy your Pack or Services from MandrakeSoft? Go to http://www.mandrakestore.com
Re: [newbie] MS is at it again...
On Tuesday 22 Jul 2003 1:32 pm, JoeHill wrote: > On Tue, 22 Jul 2003 13:20:12 +0100 > > Anne Wilson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> uttered: > > So how do you pay a programmer for his time and effots? > > er, by the hour? or on a per-project basis, or contract, I dunno. > > I don't know payroll! All I know is, it is impossible to make > information a commodity, at least not without getting into the mess > we're in now with IP, P2P, and DMCA and all that. Of course people > shouldn't work for free... But you see this isn't a matter of payroll. The result of a programmer's work is *not* information, it is a product, and it should be for him to decide whether that product is given away or sold. Anne Want to buy your Pack or Services from MandrakeSoft? Go to http://www.mandrakestore.com
Re: [newbie] MS is at it again...
On Tuesday 22 Jul 2003 12:44 pm, JoeHill wrote: > On Tue, 22 Jul 2003 18:49:49 +0800 > > "Frankie" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> uttered: > > All pirated, of course ... > > but...what *is* pirated...did Photoshop invent *everything* that > goes into their product? > > Like Disney, they whinge about IP, but 90% of their movies are not > original at all! > > Information must be free! > Information, yes. And some people donate their spare time for free, but if you work 40 hours/week or more on something, don't you expect to get paid? Anne Want to buy your Pack or Services from MandrakeSoft? Go to http://www.mandrakestore.com
Re: [newbie] MS is at it again...
On Tue, 22 Jul 2003 13:20:12 +0100 Anne Wilson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> uttered: > So how do you pay a programmer for his time and effots? er, by the hour? or on a per-project basis, or contract, I dunno. I don't know payroll! All I know is, it is impossible to make information a commodity, at least not without getting into the mess we're in now with IP, P2P, and DMCA and all that. Of course people shouldn't work for free... -- Joehill Registered Linux user #282046 Homepage: nodex.sytes.net ++ 08:29:43 up 7:59, 1 user, load average: 0.13, 0.08, 0.08 There's only one everything. Want to buy your Pack or Services from MandrakeSoft? Go to http://www.mandrakestore.com
Re: [newbie] MS is at it again...
On Tue, 22 Jul 2003 12:48:28 +0100 Anne Wilson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> uttered: > if you work 40 hours/week or more on something, don't you expect > to get paid? for me, that's a *big* if! :))) but of course, for my time and effort, not for my info. Trying to cage info is like trying to hogtie a snake. -- Joehill Registered Linux user #282046 Homepage: nodex.sytes.net ++ 07:59:53 up 7:29, 1 user, load average: 0.30, 0.11, 0.03 You can observe a lot just by watching. -- Yogi Berra Want to buy your Pack or Services from MandrakeSoft? Go to http://www.mandrakestore.com
Re: [newbie] MS is at it again...
On Tue, 22 Jul 2003 18:49:49 +0800 "Frankie" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> uttered: > All pirated, of course ... but...what *is* pirated...did Photoshop invent *everything* that goes into their product? Like Disney, they whinge about IP, but 90% of their movies are not original at all! Information must be free! read my manifesto :D -- Joehill Registered Linux user #282046 Homepage: nodex.sytes.net ++ 07:42:11 up 7:11, 1 user, load average: 0.05, 0.05, 0.01 Do not seek death; death will find you. But seek the road which makes death a fulfillment. -- Dag Hammarskjold Want to buy your Pack or Services from MandrakeSoft? Go to http://www.mandrakestore.com
RE: [newbie] MS is at it again...
Hey, complete is complete, Don't knock it.. :-) rgds Franki -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Behalf Of Robin Turner Sent: Tuesday, 22 July 2003 4:28 PM To: newbie Subject: Re: [newbie] MS is at it again... rikona wrote: > > Bigger is NOT necessarily better. Here in Turkey if you buy from a smaller dealer, it's normal for a computer to come with a complete set of disks for Windows, MS Office and Photoshop. All pirated, of course ... Sir Robin Want to buy your Pack or Services from MandrakeSoft? Go to http://www.mandrakestore.com
Re: [newbie] MS is at it again...
rikona wrote: Hello Erylon, Sunday, July 20, 2003, 5:40:56 PM, you wrote: EH> I haven't seen a single pc in the past couple of years that EH> actually came with a real install disk. I buy only from small local dealers who will supply a real install disk. The service I have had from these people has also been much better, plus I can bring the machine there if necessary. Prices have been competitive with the biggies, too. They are a dying breed, though. :-((( Bigger is NOT necessarily better. Here in Turkey if you buy from a smaller dealer, it's normal for a computer to come with a complete set of disks for Windows, MS Office and Photoshop. All pirated, of course ... Sir Robin -- "A strategy is still being formulated." Robin Turner IDMYO Bilkent Univeritesi Ankara 06533 Turkey www.bilkent.edu.tr/~robin Want to buy your Pack or Services from MandrakeSoft? Go to http://www.mandrakestore.com
RE: [newbie] MS is at it again...
This is why you are nearly always better off buying clone PC's for desktops.. all the clones my wholesalers supply OEM CD's... As for laptops, a much harder concern.. I can however order laptops from several places with No OS at all, and then order a copy of XP or 2000 OEM to go with it... which solves the problem. (not the problem that the end user wants windows, but the problem of getting them what they paid for.) regards Franki http://htmlfixit.com -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Behalf Of JoeHill Sent: Monday, 21 July 2003 8:45 AM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [newbie] MS is at it again... On Sun, 20 Jul 2003 17:40:56 -0700 Erylon Hines <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> uttered: > I hate MS as much as the next guy (I don't run it at all at home, > although it is available via dual boot), but this is really the fault > of the pc maker/distributors. I haven't seen a single pc in the past > couple of years that actually came with a real install disk. I thoght of that as soon as I posted it! Good point! Buut, PC distributors should be selling computers with install disks, and who will make them do that? Darn personal responsibility! I guess it's me... -- Joehill Registered Linux user #282046 ++ You can always pick up your needle and move to another groove. -- Tim Leary Want to buy your Pack or Services from MandrakeSoft? Go to http://www.mandrakestore.com
Re: [newbie] MS is at it again...
On Sunday 20 July 2003 08:44 pm, JoeHill wrote: > On Sun, 20 Jul 2003 17:40:56 -0700 > > Erylon Hines <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> uttered: > > I hate MS as much as the next guy (I don't run it at all at home, > > although it is available via dual boot), but this is really the fault > > of the pc maker/distributors. I haven't seen a single pc in the past > > couple of years that actually came with a real install disk. > > I thoght of that as soon as I posted it! Good point! > > Buut, PC distributors should be selling computers with install > disks, and who will make them do that? > > Darn personal responsibility! I guess it's me... It's really all about reducing manufacturing costs, folks. In particular, customer service costs. Cube dwellers aren't free, and the big manufacturers such as HP or Dell have acres of them. Big bucks are being spent there. Less cubies mean less bucks. By reducing the time spent with each customer, fewer cubies can handle any given level of service demands; one method of reducing customer contact time is to automate the entire partition, format and install drill so that it takes but a single step. If this does not remedy the issue and subsequent assistance is needed, there is the additional benefit that diagnosis will be greatly simplified as the PC will be in a known state, unencumbered by any changes that may have been made after the PC was shipped. The fact that the among the missing are any customer-installed applications and all of his data is regarded as collateral damage. Customers who complain are reminded that they were told to make regular and frequent backups; the procedures are explained in the manual. It's particularly sad when the original complaint was that the CD-RW didn't work, and it's truly pathetic when the manual was actually a huge .pdf file on the CD. "Have a nice day, sir." Me? I build my own systems. Not just because I'm cheap. I'm also a control freak. BTW, whenever you hear the term "customer service", remember that "service" is what the bull does to the cow. Any bull will tell you that it was a lot better in the old days. -- cmg Want to buy your Pack or Services from MandrakeSoft? Go to http://www.mandrakestore.com
Re: [newbie] MS is at it again...
On Mon, 21 Jul 2003 00:50:00 -0400 Carroll Grigsby <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> uttered: > > BTW, whenever you hear the term "customer service", remember that > "service" is what the bull does to the cow. No wonder, last time I went to Best Buy, my ass hurt for a week! -- Joehill Registered Linux user #282046 ++ Faith goes out through the window when beauty comes in at the door. Want to buy your Pack or Services from MandrakeSoft? Go to http://www.mandrakestore.com
Re: [newbie] MS is at it again...
On Sunday 20 July 2003 04:55 pm, JoeHill wrote: > http://slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=03/07/20/0148207 > > un-fscking-believable... Probably as much Toshiba as Micro$ux cutting costs as usual. Want to buy your Pack or Services from MandrakeSoft? Go to http://www.mandrakestore.com
Re: [newbie] MS is at it again...
On Sunday 20 July 2003 20:40, Erylon Hines wrote: > I hate MS as much as the next guy (I don't run it at all at home, although > it is available via dual boot), but this is really the fault of the pc > maker/distributors. I haven't seen a single pc in the past couple of years > that actually came with a real install disk. Every one has a "recovery" > disk, and if you do use the disk to "recover" your trashed windows each one > will format the hd and return the system to exactly what it was when it > came from the factory. If you dual boot (or quad boot as I do with one > machine at work), you can't use the windisk supplied with the machine or > your multi-boot will be toast. The Windows tax paid gets a useless > recovery disk--gripes me to no end, especially when I have to dual boot > because of legacy apps that won't run on NT/W2K. These suckers trash W98 > and DOS dual boots as well as Linux--they're non-discriminatory in that > regard. I do not know which system manufacture you have but I do know about this IBM Thinkpad A30P. I know! I learned the hard way. 1. You do not need anything but Mandrake to repartition the HD. 2. You can reinstall Windows XP home or professional from by recovery disk after you reposition the HD. 3. You can reinstall Windows by either formating the HD (Windows partition only) or install Windows as a recovery which does leave all the programs on the HD. Frank Want to buy your Pack or Services from MandrakeSoft? Go to http://www.mandrakestore.com
Re: [newbie] MS is at it again...
On July 20, 2003 04:55 pm, JoeHill wrote: > http://slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=03/07/20/0148207 > > un-fscking-believable... When you consider the source, not particularly. You see some bone headed hardware manufacturer thinks you'll always want to use XP and only XP for as long as you live. It's kinda like a Victorian marriage...you're stuck no matter how unsuited you are to each other. Is M$ lurking in the background giggling? Oh yes, I'm sure they are. And given that XP is slow, not overly stable, buggier than an ant hill (nothing new for Microsoft there) and a security sink hole why would you want to use anything else? :-) And if you think this is fun..wait for the next edition of Windows. It should be code named Mien Kampf if all the rumours about it are true. ttfn John Want to buy your Pack or Services from MandrakeSoft? Go to http://www.mandrakestore.com
Re: [newbie] MS is at it again...
On Sun, 20 Jul 2003 17:40:56 -0700 Erylon Hines <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> uttered: > I hate MS as much as the next guy (I don't run it at all at home, > although it is available via dual boot), but this is really the fault > of the pc maker/distributors. I haven't seen a single pc in the past > couple of years that actually came with a real install disk. I thoght of that as soon as I posted it! Good point! Buut, PC distributors should be selling computers with install disks, and who will make them do that? Darn personal responsibility! I guess it's me... -- Joehill Registered Linux user #282046 ++ You can always pick up your needle and move to another groove. -- Tim Leary Want to buy your Pack or Services from MandrakeSoft? Go to http://www.mandrakestore.com
Re: [newbie] MS is at it again...
I hate MS as much as the next guy (I don't run it at all at home, although it is available via dual boot), but this is really the fault of the pc maker/distributors. I haven't seen a single pc in the past couple of years that actually came with a real install disk. Every one has a "recovery" disk, and if you do use the disk to "recover" your trashed windows each one will format the hd and return the system to exactly what it was when it came from the factory. If you dual boot (or quad boot as I do with one machine at work), you can't use the windisk supplied with the machine or your multi-boot will be toast. The Windows tax paid gets a useless recovery disk--gripes me to no end, especially when I have to dual boot because of legacy apps that won't run on NT/W2K. These suckers trash W98 and DOS dual boots as well as Linux--they're non-discriminatory in that regard. On Sunday 20 July 2003 04:55 pm, JoeHill wrote: > http://slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=03/07/20/0148207 > > un-fscking-believable... Want to buy your Pack or Services from MandrakeSoft? Go to http://www.mandrakestore.com
