RE: [313] Fabulous Ruins of Detroit
> there is also Gary, IN...Flint, MI...Chicago has been in better > shape...its all over the Mid West... > jeff > > > > "THOU SHALT REMEMBER THE FUNK AND KEEP IT HOLY" > -George Clinton > > -Original Message- > From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [SMTP:[EMAIL PROTECTED] > Sent: Monday, July 03, 2000 6:14 AM > To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]; 313@hyperreal.org > Subject:Re: [313] Fabulous Ruins of Detroit > > > > > I know the focus of this list is primarily Detroit > > but i just wanted to remind y'all that these > > concerns are not limited to the D. > >
Re: [313] Fabulous Ruins of Detroit
In a message dated 02/07/00 14:11:23 GMT Daylight Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: > I know the focus of this list is primarily Detroit > but i just wanted to remind y'all that these > concerns are not limited to the D. Detroit is definately not the only city that is apparently falling to ruin from the inside out. I am in the Midlands in the UK, and its interesting to compare Birmingham and surrounding area to Detroit (I used to live in Detroit as well). Birmingham has all the same scenes of old factories and wharehouses falling apart. Birmingham also has a reputation in the UK similar to Detroits in the states - a city with not much to it. I think sometimes that Detroit is better off actually, in that at least the suburbs are nice, because in my opinion the whole sprawl that surrounds Birmingham is often worse than Birmingham itself. Nevertheless, I love both cities, Detroit was my favourite place of residence in the US, and although I don't actually live in Birmingham, its by far my most frequently visited city. Another interesting note about the two - Detroit is obviously well known for its techno and electronic music in general, as well as for its sort of industrial wasteland image. So is it coincidence or maybe something more that Birmingham is also an industrial wasteland sort of place, as well as a major Techno city (I think so anyway), with quite a few big producers and labels based there, and a techno night going on somewhere in the area more or less every night of the week, which fill the spaces between a couple of major techno nights like House of God and Atomic Jam. Aaron P.S. - even the tiny town I live in, Shrewsbury, was on the tv the other night in a program about the decay of our industrial landmarks. Interestingly enough, the very first steel framed building in the world is in Shrewsbury (steel framed building technology being responsible for the first of the skyscrapers and other generally large buildings) and it is falling into ruin (and I do mean RUIN). So they are probably gonna knock it down, but as they were saying on the tv, this building is actually a major landmark in the history of industry, and it would be a shame to see it go. Of course no one actually recognizes this building as important, I doubt even any of the oldtimer locals realize the history of the building, as its just another falling down building.
RE: [313] Fabulous Ruins of Detroit
One comment about whether the city of Detroit is devoting enough of its new resources to the neighborhoods and away from the redevelopment core: No. Compuware got its new site for $1, but can responsible groups wanting to renovate abandoned housing get title from the city to move forward and do the one thing neighborhoods need most, which is to get stable individuals and families back into affordable housing? To have to ask the question provides the answer. Now let's bring it back to Detroit techno. Where has the city been in assisting one particular small business which is being dislocated due to the construction of the new stadiums? Not very much help, really; Submerge still is at 2030 Grand River but, as building after building around it has been torn down to make way for the eventual new facilities, the city has offered very little to help an organization that not only is a thriving locally-owned enterprise, but has responsibility for an operation and a building with worldwide renown. I have some respect for Mayor Archer (I'm not a Detroit resident, but I *am* in politics and this is based on experience) -- he has stabilized a good many things and offers a positive and informed attitude. But a much bolder vision is necessary to put Detroit, not just the downtown redevelopment zone coveted by the same old usual development suspects, back on the right track. And there are plenty of people ready to pitch in and make it work again when that happens. If the city wasn't convinced by the astounding turnout and support for the DEMF -- after it had sidetracked the permits for months on end -- then I don't know what will. Detroit is a city ready to step forward again, but will the politicians and business leaders let it? phred
RE: [313] Fabulous Ruins of Detroit
I'm far from a definitive source on the matter, but as for your question of whether new development/investment in Detroit is "an actual investment in and by the community as a whole" I'd have to say there are a lot of factors to consider. Detroit's number one problem is that the city was built for 2 million people and because of flight to the suburbs (sprawl) there are now probably less than 1 million living in Detroit proper. That's a greatly deflated tax base, and it's impossible to maintain all that infrastructure without somehow generating revenue to account for the difference. So in terms of generating $ for the city, things like the casinos, new sports stadiums, Compuware headquarters relocation (to downtown from the suburb of Farmington Hills) are good. Whether that additional revenue ever gets allocated toward actually improving the lives/neighborhoods of real Detroiters remains to be seen. This has been a major point of contention within the city with a small faction going so far as to call for the ouster of Mayor Dennis Archer because they don't feel like they're getting their fare share of the pie when it comes to this recent increase revenue. I personally, think they are premature in their effort and that Mayor Archer is attacking the root cause of the city's ill - lack of $. But we'll see in about ten years, once everything is "online" whether any of that $ gets kicked to the hood, so to speak. This is, of course a gross simplification of the social and economic factors that have made detroit what it is today (whatever you may call it), but I think this is the heart of the matter. Of course, the issue of race has played a major role, but exactly how major is, again, a hotly debated subject. I've had the occasion to speak with/interview several PHDs from the University of Michigan and Michigan State University who have authored books on this subject and they have widely varying opinions. That's another thread altogether. But, hey, this urban decay certainly has left us with an interesting playground in terms of the exotic locations where we get to enjoy "our" music. The Packard Plant is a glaring example. Others are a huge (HUGE), cathedral-like art deco lobby in of the David Whitney building in the central business district (complete with a balcony on the second level surrounding and overlooking the entire party), Several downtown office locations around Capital Park (on Griswold, just west of Woodward and the cbd) with breathtaking views of the skyline (it seems as though you could reach out and grab the Ren Cen). Of course, there's the monolithic Train Station on Michigan (which I believe is up on the ruins site) that makes for a great post-dawn after party hangout, although I wouldn't got there at night. Nothing like chilling on the roof of a seventeen story skeleton as the sun comes up over the eastern skyline, what a way to "cap" a great night of partying in the city! hey man can i get copies of these articles? for reasons i'm not even entirely aware of myself, the idea of urban recovery interests me greatly.. maybe it's a creeping suspicion that all our cities are heading that direction? i met that friend of y'alls who works for the urban planning department there but never had a chance to talk to her. i first started travelling to detroit in '93, and i can see what at first seem like improvements, though i wonder how much of it is merely cosmetic? demolishing abandoned buildings is one thing, but as you said replacing the businesses they represent in terms of socioeconomic infrastructure is another matter entirely. one of the things about your city that captures my attention is the sense of grass-roots populist commitment to improving things.. there's a sense of vitality that remains with me even after my initial naive romanticized ideas have faded.. it's funny to think back about my first impressions.. the sense that there was some homogenous militant techno underground in an abandoned industrial wasteland.. funny, eh? never stopping to consider that the mundane facts of life were as prevalent there as anywhere, that people had day jobs, lives, careers, educations, family.. of course there is a vital music/arts community, and though Detroit is obviously the epicenter of a cultural phenomenon which is still developing, and very dear to me, i think it's grown beyond mere geography despite the parochialism displayed by some.. anyhow, my point was that to an admitted outsider it seems to be on the way up, and I wonder how much of this is speculative capitalist investment by outside interests or possibly some kind of state/federal grant program, or if it's genuinely an actual investment in and by the community as a whole. i'm not sure if i'm making sense here? so yeh.. i'm interested. ;p __ Do You Yahoo!? Kick off your party with Yahoo! Invites. http://invites.yaho
Re: [313] Fabulous Ruins of Detroit
I know the focus of this list is primarily Detroit but i just wanted to remind y'all that these concerns are not limited to the D. In other older urban centers, many of the same issues are present and continue to manifest themselves. I'm in Southern New Jersey near 2 prime examples of this. I refer to Camden and Philadelphia. Camden and Newark battle each other yearly for the "crime capital" of New Jersey and its a damned shame. People are trying, but alas as with Detroit, it seems the inner cities are still a lost cause when it comes to the concerns of our society. And i dare say this isnt just localized to the US. thanx keeping it in perspective /home/lunarpark-1/Jim J. - Original Message - From: "Hugh G. Blaze" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>; <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>; <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Cc: <313@hyperreal.org>; <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Sent: Sunday, July 02, 2000 4:59 AM Subject: RE: [313] Fabulous Ruins of Detroit > > > > >I don't think the American public has any sense of what happened > >in these buildings over the last four decades. We turned away. > >And we turned away from the everyday neighborhoods of Detroit where > >the people who worked there lived, and only woke up when the headlines > >started screeching about "murder capital" and "Devil's Night". > >
RE: [313] Fabulous Ruins of Detroit
I don't think the American public has any sense of what happened in these buildings over the last four decades. We turned away. And we turned away from the everyday neighborhoods of Detroit where the people who worked there lived, and only woke up when the headlines started screeching about "murder capital" and "Devil's Night". No, in fact we have not woken up here in Southeastern Michigan. We continue to turn away, as urban sprawl decimates our landscape and natural resources. Michigan is the fourth worst state in terms of sprawl in the U.S. In the past twenty years, Michigan has used undeveloped land at a rate of 77,000 acres per year, while remaining constant in terms of population. That's according to U.S. Department of Agriculture Statistics. For those on this list that don't already know, I'm a reporter with a local newspaper in Metro Detroit, and I've been reporting on this topic quite a bit in the last 12 months. It's alarming how much of our state's open land has been turned into highways, malls, subdivisions and office buildings while there are vast acres of land, infrastructure and hundreds of buildings rotting in Detroit. In fact it's a crime. The social and economic factors contributing to this phenomenon are virtually unknown to the public at large, and remain unaddressed. The legislators we elect have failed us, and we have failed ourselves and our planet. We are already feeling the environmental and economic impact of this continued decision to ignore the problem. Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com
RE: [313] Fabulous Ruins of Detroit
Lester, you're ready more into what I wrote than I actually said. To confront these massive industrial and commercial buildings that within our lifetimes were the engines of American capitalism is to confront one visible aspect of what happened to *Detroit* as a community/culture/economy. But note that I said "one" aspect. Unlike most observers and superficial views of this process, here we have someone who not only looks at the outside but literally goes inside and tells at least a bit of the story, whether it's where the first Model T was built or it's the Packard plant or whatever. Yes, these "ruins" are no more than 30 years old, while those in Athens or Angkor Wat go back thousands of years. And so? In Detroit's case, it is a testimony to the hyper-speeded-up nature of our civilization now, where the entire life cycle of a massive building that normally would last 200 years or longer as a useful structure has been compressed into 50 or less. The irony, as Boileau notes, is that the enterprise contained in those structures led to their early demise. I don't think the American public has any sense of what happened in these buildings over the last four decades. We turned away. And we turned away from the everyday neighborhoods of Detroit where the people who worked there lived, and only woke up when the headlines started screeching about "murder capital" and "Devil's Night". I'd like to see a photo-essay online about all the other parts that make up the confounding city and region of Detroit. Every place is unique, but what about Detroit is it that makes it so much one of a kind? It's not the "fabulous ruins," really -- it's something else. I'm always amazed at the fierce loyalty people have to such a messed-up, beat-down place. It's what has kept techno going all these years despite relative indifference even locally. It's that sense of you never, ever give up. I didn't mean to make this a big discussion issue here, just wanted to point the site out and say that it had a big effect on me. Downtown Detroit shows how radically we as a nation turned our backs on city life from the 1940s to 1970s, and shows us that we left behind something truly important for human civilization when we did -- the urban life that makes us cohere as a society. It's just more radical and obvious in Detroit than elsewhere. So I've had my say on this and I'm out... phred
RE: [313] Fabulous Ruins of Detroit
On Fri, 30 Jun 2000, Lester Kenyatta Spence wrote: > On Fri, 30 Jun 2000, Kent williams wrote: > > > To say that there are ruins in Detroit is no different than saying > > that there are ruins in Paris and Rome. They testify about an age > > that no longer exists. It isn't to imply that the place is dead, just > > that there is an architectural memory of things that no longer exist. > > How old are the ruins in Paris and Rome? What age do the ruins in Paris > and Rome hark to? Now, what age do the "ruins" in Detroit hark to? > > They're a bit older. The Detroit ruins are very new. I'm not arguing with you really, I'm saying that Detroit is just as alive as Rome or Venice, moreso probably, ruins or no ruins. Living in the presence of the past is the operative condition, no less Detroit than London.
Re: [313] Fabulous Ruins of Detroit
> It isn't to imply that the place is dead, just that there is an > architectural memory of things that no longer exist. Like all those poor elm trees felled by Dutch elm disease. Sadly, Detroit as the "City of Trees" exists no more. Unlike some of the other problems something can be done about this on an individual basis: http://www.comnet.org/local/orgs/greening/index.html - George
RE: [313] Fabulous Ruins of Detroit
To say that there are ruins in Detroit is no different than saying that there are ruins in Paris and Rome. They testify about an age that no longer exists. It isn't to imply that the place is dead, just that there is an architectural memory of things that no longer exist. More impressive to me than the industrial ruins is cruising through neighborhoods still mostly vacant since the depopulation following the closing of the big plants. There's a sense of vacancy around each spot of life that is so different than a city like NYC or Chicago where people are still stacked as tight as they can be. kent williams -- [EMAIL PROTECTED]
RE: [313] Fabulous Ruins of Detroit
On Fri, 30 Jun 2000, Kent williams wrote: > To say that there are ruins in Detroit is no different than saying > that there are ruins in Paris and Rome. They testify about an age > that no longer exists. It isn't to imply that the place is dead, just > that there is an architectural memory of things that no longer exist. How old are the ruins in Paris and Rome? What age do the ruins in Paris and Rome hark to? Now, what age do the "ruins" in Detroit hark to? peace lks --- Lester Kenyatta Spence [EMAIL PROTECTED] Assistant Professor, Political Science Washington University at St. Louis "We illuminate the contradictions and call it the light" ---
RE: [313] Fabulous Ruins of Detroit
On Thu, 29 Jun 2000, Phonopsia wrote: > On Thursday, June 29, 2000 11:06 PM, Lester Kenyatta Spence > > . and by creating a work of art that is based on the > > implicit premise that detroit is emptyof people, and of dynamic > > (rather than static) beauty, i think the creator of RUINS is really > > missing out on something > > I don't know. There doesn't seem to any denying Detroit has it's ruinous > aspect, and the entire site is devoted to ruins of several places with > ruins. See also Zimbabwe, Ephesus, El Tajin, Athens and Rome. I understand what you are sayingbut isn't it interesting that he's comparing Detroit to Zimbabwewhere the ruins are literally hundreds of years old? To Athens and Rome, with ruins over one THOUSAND years old? > I'm no expert on the history of Detroit and I am experiencing some > voyeuristic pangs of guilt as I look at it (it's majestic and sad at once, > but I don't *know* what it means b/c I wasn't there for it). But the site > is devoted to ruins in general. To crystalize the intent of this site as > Detroit in a state of ruin that it has never seen would amount to saying > the same thing about Athens as far as this site goes. And I don't think > that's what the author intends. I think he is focusing on instances of > decay, rather than denying the dynamism of the city. Fair enough. But to compare Detroit to cities with ruins older than the United States is to make the implicit argument that Detroit is a dead relic. Which doesn't say anything different than the story that most pundits tell about Detroit. peace lks
Re: [313] Fabulous Ruins of Detroit
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: > http://bhere.com/ruins/industry/indpacpan.htm > > "Detroit's decline and fall" is a process still going on, still> > mostly > undocumented, and still essential to understanding the origin and > development of electronic music in Detroit. Lester Kenyatta Spence wrote: I'm feeling youbut I profoundly disagree. Detroit has >been "declining and falling" since the ascension of Coleman Young...but though urban disinvestment is REAL and did indeed begin in Detroit. there's this "Detroit went to hell since the riots" vibe that embodies a significant genre of literature about detroit. i don't buy it. and by creating a work of art that is based on the implicit premise that detroit is emptyof people, and of dynamic (rather than static) beauty, i think the creator of RUINS is really missing out on something I don't know about that, but I like the guy's paint art. Maybe they cover the decadence of city life better: (?) bhere.com/art/real/editions/passage.htm Proffit Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com
Re: [313] Fabulous Ruins of Detroit
check http://bhere.com/ruins/ravisode/hands.htm "The hands of the DJ as he places a new LP on one of his three turntables. Behind the upper hand are the controls of his drum machine." hmm :)
RE: [313] Fabulous Ruins of Detroit
On Thursday, June 29, 2000 11:06 PM, Lester Kenyatta Spence [SMTP:[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: > On 30 Jun 2000 [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: > > > http://bhere.com/ruins/industry/indpacpan.htm > > > > "Detroit's decline and fall" is a process still going on, still mostly > > undocumented, and still essential to understanding the origin and > > development of electronic music in Detroit. > > I'm feeling youbut I profoundly disagree. Detroit has been "declining > and falling" since the ascension of Coleman Young...but though urban > disinvestment is REAL and did indeed begin in Detroit. there's this > "Detroit went to hell since the riots" vibe that embodies a significant > genre of literature about detroit. > > i don't buy it. and by creating a work of art that is based on the > implicit premise that detroit is emptyof people, and of dynamic > (rather than static) beauty, i think the creator of RUINS is really > missing out on something I don't know. There doesn't seem to any denying Detroit has it's ruinous aspect, and the entire site is devoted to ruins of several places with ruins. See also Zimbabwe, Ephesus, El Tajin, Athens and Rome. I'm no expert on the history of Detroit and I am experiencing some voyeuristic pangs of guilt as I look at it (it's majestic and sad at once, but I don't *know* what it means b/c I wasn't there for it). But the site is devoted to ruins in general. To crystalize the intent of this site as Detroit in a state of ruin that it has never seen would amount to saying the same thing about Athens as far as this site goes. And I don't think that's what the author intends. I think he is focusing on instances of decay, rather than denying the dynamism of the city. I definitely see that devoting a site to ruin is a bit twisted at face value though. Tristan == PHONOPSIA<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> http://www.geocities.com/SunsetStrip/Lounge/5102 "FrogboyMCI" on AOL Instant Messenger New Album, "Quebecois", online now. __ Do You Yahoo!? Talk to your friends online with Yahoo! Messenger. http://im.yahoo.com
Re: [313] Fabulous Ruins of Detroit
On 30 Jun 2000 [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: > http://bhere.com/ruins/industry/indpacpan.htm > > "Detroit's decline and fall" is a process still going on, still mostly > undocumented, and still essential to understanding the origin and > development of electronic music in Detroit. I'm feeling youbut I profoundly disagree. Detroit has been "declining and falling" since the ascension of Coleman Young...but though urban disinvestment is REAL and did indeed begin in Detroit. there's this "Detroit went to hell since the riots" vibe that embodies a significant genre of literature about detroit. i don't buy it. and by creating a work of art that is based on the implicit premise that detroit is emptyof people, and of dynamic (rather than static) beauty, i think the creator of RUINS is really missing out on something peace --- Lester Kenyatta Spence [EMAIL PROTECTED] Assistant Professor, Political Science Washington University at St. Louis "We illuminate the contradictions and call it the light" ---
