[AsburyPark] Re: Watermark Lounge

[nobepeymay]

--- In AsburyPark@yahoogroups.com, Debbie DeLisa <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> 
wrote:
>
> 
> I agree with Doug and Kathy---The Watermark Lounge is 
beautiful!!!  As I was standing on the outside deck looking north 
over our city I was very proud and very moved to be a part of this. 
>  
> Also I had a chance to enjoy a wonderful dinner at Stella Marina-I 
felt as if I was dining in Manhattan.  Thank you to Joe and his 
staff from Serenas and also to Madison Marquette for bringin such an 
extraordinary restaurant to Asbury Park.
> 


That's awesome Debbiecan't wait to check out both places.  

On a recomendation from a friend I will be going to the wonderbar on 
12/5 to check out The Duke Spirit, see you then.
John




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[AsburyPark] Re: Here Is An Asbury Park Discussion!

[justifiedright]

--- In AsburyPark@yahoogroups.com, "asburycouple" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> 
wrote:

>
> Tom, I really don't care about Mario's view on the Columbus 
> Day/Kwanzaa "debate" and not one of my comments was related to it - 

 
AsburyCouple you accused me of using a strawman against Mario.  Now 
read what you just wrote above and see if the two statements square.


If you have no opinion on the Columbus/Kwanzaa/Christmas situation, 
that's your right.


So how about those beachfront lights?





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[AsburyPark] Re: Here Is An Asbury Park Discussion!

[asburycouple]

Tom, I really don't care about Mario's view on the Columbus 
Day/Kwanzaa "debate" and not one of my comments was related to it - 
as I expected you missed what I was trying to say to you completely.  
So I'll leave it there.  




--- In AsburyPark@yahoogroups.com, "justifiedright" 
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> Well Mario, in the achives you said you would not say that you 
> support public money for Kwanzaa.
> 
> This year, you seem to be milking that your silence has people 
> thinking the opposite.
> 
> So I don't have to be accused of a strawman, clear it up.
> 
> Tell us what Newbie and AsburyCouple couldn't:
> 
> Your posistion on Asbury Park using public resources for Columbus 
> Day, for Kwanzaa, and the Chamber changing the name of Christmas to 
> somehting else.
> 
> I'm certain you won't.  You'll take a stab at clever, peppered with 
> insult toward me, but you will not make your position clear, for 
the 
> reasons I stated.
> 
> Let me dare you to do it.
> 
> You still won't.
> 
> For the reasons I stated.
> 
> 
> 
> --- In AsburyPark@yahoogroups.com, MarioAPNJ@ wrote:
> >
> > In a message dated 11/9/2008 7:30:01 P.M. Eastern Standard Time,  
> > justifiedright@ writes:
> > 
> > I'm  simply pointing out that he does not support Asbury 
> > Park's spending of  public resources on the Kwanzaa celebration.
> >  
> > ===
> >  
> > In a message dated 11/9/2008 10:17:44 A.M. Eastern Standard 
Time,  
> > justifiedright@ writes:
> > 
> > Told  everyone Mario won't address the issue.
> > 
> > He's against Columbus Day, but  for Kwanzaa, but against 
Christmas.
> >  
> > =
> >  
> > Which is it?  First you say I do "not support" it; then you say 
> I'm  "for it."
> >  
> > ==
> >  
> > In a message dated 11/9/2008 7:32:24 P.M. Eastern Standard Time,  
> > justifiedright@ writes:
> > 
> > I did  not say he was anti-American (hey -  you used a strawman!).
> > 
> > Go  back and read my post again.  
> >  
> > ==
> >  
> > In a message dated 11/9/2008 9:49:42 A.M. Eastern Standard  
Time,  
> > justifiedright@ writes:
> > > 
> > > It is   Marioas he as no fear of looking anti-America
> >  
> > ===
> >  
> > Clever:  "anti-American" vs.  "looking anti-America"
> >  
> > A distinction without a difference.
> >  
> >  
> >  
> >  
> >  
> >  
> >  
> >  
> >  
> >  
> > **AOL Search: Your one stop for directions, recipes 
and 
> all other 
> > Holiday needs. Search Now. 
> > 
(http://pr.atwola.com/promoclk/10075x1212792382x1200798498/aol?
> redir=http://searchblog.aol.com/2008/11/04/happy-holidays-from
> > -aol-search/?ncid=emlcntussear0001)
> > 
> > 
> > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> >
>





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[AsburyPark] Re: Here Is An Asbury Park Discussion!

[justifiedright]

Well Mario, in the achives you said you would not say that you 
support public money for Kwanzaa.

This year, you seem to be milking that your silence has people 
thinking the opposite.

So I don't have to be accused of a strawman, clear it up.

Tell us what Newbie and AsburyCouple couldn't:

Your posistion on Asbury Park using public resources for Columbus 
Day, for Kwanzaa, and the Chamber changing the name of Christmas to 
somehting else.

I'm certain you won't.  You'll take a stab at clever, peppered with 
insult toward me, but you will not make your position clear, for the 
reasons I stated.

Let me dare you to do it.

You still won't.

For the reasons I stated.



--- In AsburyPark@yahoogroups.com, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
>
> In a message dated 11/9/2008 7:30:01 P.M. Eastern Standard Time,  
> [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
> 
> I'm  simply pointing out that he does not support Asbury 
> Park's spending of  public resources on the Kwanzaa celebration.
>  
> ===
>  
> In a message dated 11/9/2008 10:17:44 A.M. Eastern Standard Time,  
> [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
> 
> Told  everyone Mario won't address the issue.
> 
> He's against Columbus Day, but  for Kwanzaa, but against Christmas.
>  
> =
>  
> Which is it?  First you say I do "not support" it; then you say 
I'm  "for it."
>  
> ==
>  
> In a message dated 11/9/2008 7:32:24 P.M. Eastern Standard Time,  
> [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
> 
> I did  not say he was anti-American (hey -  you used a strawman!).
> 
> Go  back and read my post again.  
>  
> ==
>  
> In a message dated 11/9/2008 9:49:42 A.M. Eastern Standard  Time,  
> justifiedright@ writes:
> > 
> > It is   Marioas he as no fear of looking anti-America
>  
> ===
>  
> Clever:  "anti-American" vs.  "looking anti-America"
>  
> A distinction without a difference.
>  
>  
>  
>  
>  
>  
>  
>  
>  
>  
> **AOL Search: Your one stop for directions, recipes and 
all other 
> Holiday needs. Search Now. 
> (http://pr.atwola.com/promoclk/10075x1212792382x1200798498/aol?
redir=http://searchblog.aol.com/2008/11/04/happy-holidays-from
> -aol-search/?ncid=emlcntussear0001)
> 
> 
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>





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[AsburyPark] The Reality in Asbury Park

[MarioAPNJ]

Even if JR were 100% right
Even if he and I were to disagree till kingdom come
 
The reality in Asbury Park is that
 
1) among the residents, there is no groundswell against the city's  
participation in a secular Kwanzaa;
 
2) among the residents, there is no outcry against our merchants' use of  the 
all-inclusive "holidays;
 
3) among the residents, the minority view about the Columbus story remains  
just that, a minority view.
 
The reality in Asbury Park is the struggle to weather this global fiscal  
crisis.
No need to harass the city or the chamber of commerce with esoteric issues  
about holidays and holy days.
 
Unless it's just argument for the sake of argument. 
 
   
"For most adults, the sensation of being proved right is usually a complex  
and bittersweet one. You might have said that your brother-in-law would turn 
out  to be a no-goodnik, or that the forty-third President would turn out to be 
the  worst in American history, and you may regard subsequent events as 
inarguable  proof that you were right--but it's not an especially happy 
feeling. It  
changes nothing about the world outside your head. You were right.  
Congratulations. And?"
 
http://www.newyorker.com/arts/critics/atlarge/2008/11/10/081110crat_atlarge_la
nchester
 
 
The rest of the article applies the above to the world of finance.
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 

 
**AOL Search: Your one stop for directions, recipes and all other 
Holiday needs. Search Now. 
(http://pr.atwola.com/promoclk/10075x1212792382x1200798498/aol?redir=http://searchblog.aol.com/2008/11/04/happy-holidays-from
-aol-search/?ncid=emlcntussear0001)


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




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Re: [AsburyPark] Re: Here Is An Asbury Park Discussion!

[MarioAPNJ]

In a message dated 11/9/2008 7:30:01 P.M. Eastern Standard Time,  
[EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:

I'm  simply pointing out that he does not support Asbury 
Park's spending of  public resources on the Kwanzaa celebration.
 
===
 
In a message dated 11/9/2008 10:17:44 A.M. Eastern Standard Time,  
[EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:

Told  everyone Mario won't address the issue.

He's against Columbus Day, but  for Kwanzaa, but against Christmas.
 
=
 
Which is it?  First you say I do "not support" it; then you say I'm  "for it."
 
==
 
In a message dated 11/9/2008 7:32:24 P.M. Eastern Standard Time,  
[EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:

I did  not say he was anti-American (hey -  you used a strawman!).

Go  back and read my post again.  
 
==
 
In a message dated 11/9/2008 9:49:42 A.M. Eastern Standard  Time,  
[EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
> 
> It is   Marioas he as no fear of looking anti-America
 
===
 
Clever:  "anti-American" vs.  "looking anti-America"
 
A distinction without a difference.
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
**AOL Search: Your one stop for directions, recipes and all other 
Holiday needs. Search Now. 
(http://pr.atwola.com/promoclk/10075x1212792382x1200798498/aol?redir=http://searchblog.aol.com/2008/11/04/happy-holidays-from
-aol-search/?ncid=emlcntussear0001)


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




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[AsburyPark] Re: Buon Natale & Happy Holidays

[justifiedright]

--- In AsburyPark@yahoogroups.com, "asburycouple" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> 
wrote:
>
> Of course Tom is very pro America, so if you don't agree with him 
>you 
> are anti-America.  Stop hiding beind all that patriotic >decoration.  

I did not say he was anti-American (hey -  you used a strawman!).

Go back and read my post again.  




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[AsburyPark] Re: Here Is An Asbury Park Discussion!

[justifiedright]

--- In AsburyPark@yahoogroups.com, "Jennifer" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> For someone who loves to reply that he is a victim of 
>personalization, 
> I must ask why you are psychoanalyzing Mario?  


I'm not.  I'm simply pointing out that he does not support Asbury 
Park's spending of public resources on the Kwanzaa celebration.




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[AsburyPark] Re: WoW - TGIO

[justifiedright]

Jennifer it looks like you and I agree 100% on Kwanzaa.

I take it then you disagree with Councilman Keady on the Columbus 
celebration?

Where do you stand on the Chamber of Commerce changing the name of 
Christmas?




--- In AsburyPark@yahoogroups.com, "Jennifer" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> 
wrote:
>
> Maybe the person in charge of coordinating the city's participation 
has 
> volunteered his/her time in this capacity.  Perhaps there is a 
> corporate sponsor or sponsors?  I doubt that this celebration or 
any 
> others that bring the community or parts of the community together 
will 
> break the AP bank.  I own a house there, pay my property taxes and 
feel 
> very comfortable to have a portion of them go towards community 
> celebrations.
> 
> Why?  Celebration of holidays (secular, national, religious) may 
bring 
> people into the city that otherwise wouldn't have come.  Belmar 
puts on 
> a huge Saint Patrick's day parade.  Toms River has people come from 
all 
> over to their Halloween parade. 
>  
> According to the NJ Living site:
> Each year, in the month of December, the city of Asbury Park 
presents 
> an annual Kwanzaa Celebration honoring the past, present and future 
of 
> ita African American community.  This special event includes 
> performance groups and guest speakers.
>





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[AsburyPark] Re: WoW - TGIO

[justifiedright]

--- In AsburyPark@yahoogroups.com, "sharon_b283" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> 
wrote:
>
> While you're at it, why not ask the other 4 what THEY think?  

That's a good question Sharon.  I will ask them this week.




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[AsburyPark] Re: WoW - TGIO

[justifiedright]

--- In AsburyPark@yahoogroups.com, "sharon_b283" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> 
wrote:
>
> While you're at it, why not ask the other 4 what THEY think?  

That's a good question Sharon.  I will ask them this week.




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[AsburyPark] Re: Here Is An Asbury Park Discussion!

[justifiedright]

--- In AsburyPark@yahoogroups.com, "Michael W. Brim" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> 
wrote:
>
> Since you asked:
> 
>  
> 
> As far as Columbus Day goes, I have attended several since moving 
>to the
> area (from Pittsburgh PA via Daytona Beach FL were Columbus Day is 
>not big
> thing in these areas as they are here in the NY and NY area) and 
>have found
> the celebration of Columbus landing of great interest!  Have 
>learned a
> number of things from the presentations, like how bad a guy he was, 
>but
> overall he played a MAJOR roll in what we have here in Asbury 
>Park.  A great
> place to live, work and play.

> The celebration draw a good number of people this year, with so 
>much going
> on the boardwalk that day .. But was missing from Columbus Day 
>event were
> the young Indians!

Glad you support Asbury Park's recognition of the day (although I 
disagree with you on the bad guy part).


 
> Because of the wide culture makeup of Asbury Park, "Holiday Season" 
>works
> for me,  it includes Yule, Hanukkah and Boxing Day, to name a few 
of the
> events the term covers. 
> 
> "Holiday season" includes those who do not celebrate Christmas in an
> end-year festive spirit and gives us religious neutrality. 


To have the accutrements of Christmas but to change the name isults 
Christians.

Also, Christmas is obviously relgious, but in America, it is also an 
the most ingrained and important cultural holiday that we have.  

To deny Christmas is as insulting to my culture as if I were to 
remove the names Kwanzaa or "Pride" from those celebrations.

I hope someday Asbury Park will decide to no longer insult who I am 
as a person.

Also, a few things about Kwanzaa.

While Dr. Karenga today will say Kwanzaa is not religious, that is 
not how it was when he started it:

In 1977, in Kwanzaa: origin, concepts, practice, Karenga stated, that 
Kwanzaa "was chosen to give a Black alternative to the existing 
holiday and give Blacks an opportunity to celebrate themselves and 
history, rather than simply imitate the practice of the dominant 
society."

I bring that up because of your assertion above that you would like 
to keep religion out of Asbury Park's cultural celebration.  

Today even Dr. Karenga admist that some celebrate Kwanzaa in place of 
religion, althoug he does not encourage it.

As to inclusiveness, you shouldn't hang your hat on Kwanzaa.  While I 
can celebrate it, I am not permitted to take part in its rituals 
because of the color of my skin.

Christmas doesn't exlude like that.

NOTE WELL:  I DON'T MAKE THAT COMPARISON TO INSULT KWANZAA, ONLY TO 
DISSUADE YOU FROM YOUR THOUGHT THAT CHRISTMAS IS EXCLUSIVE.

Finally, since you brought up "Bad Guy" in reation to Columbus, I 
thought in fairness I would repring the part of Dr. Karenga's 
biography that was not linked to earlier:

He was convicted of torturing two black women by stripping them 
naked, beating them with electrical cords, placing a hot iron into 
the mouth of one and mangling the toe of the other in a vise. During 
the ordeal, he forced them to drink detergent. 

 







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[AsburyPark] Re: Here Is An Asbury Park Discussion!

[justifiedright]

--- In AsburyPark@yahoogroups.com, "kumitetoday" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> 
wrote:

 
> Asbury supports other events important to the community, so i see no
> reason not to support Kwanzaa.


Kumitetoday,

I agree with you.  What though are your thoughts about Councilman Keady 
insisting there be no City support of Columbus Day, and Chamber Of 
Commerce insisting the name of Christmas be changed?





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[AsburyPark] Re: WoW - TGIO

[justifiedright]

Newbie,

Your point is not lost on me.  While I did disagree with you once 
when you said the entire redevelopment was to be finished by now, I 
don't disagree with your observations about the media statements 
regarding Memorial Day.

I'll tell you who else agrees with you.  Gary Mottola of Madison 
Marquette.

When he first came here I interviewed him for the paper.  One of his 
complaints was that Asbury had been hyped beyond its repair, and  one 
poeple came here, they were disappointed and probably would not 
return.

I believe that to be the point you are making.

I was surprised too when he started tauting Memorial Day as a finish 
point for certain projects.  Everyone who is local laughed at the 
annoucement.  Asbury Park's wheels of progress never move that fast - 
too many layers of government.

Another mistake was the "job fair."  My office received calls from 
people who were promised employment at the job fair, then didn't get 
them when buildings and the pool weren't done.

So, I understand what you are saying.  You probably were not the only 
one to expect a Memorial Day Grand Opening as advertised and were 
disappointed when it didn't happen.






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[AsburyPark] Re: Buon Natale & Happy Holidays

[asburycouple]

Of course Tom is very pro America, so if you don't agree with him you 
are anti-America.  Stop hiding beind all that patriotic decoration.  




--- In AsburyPark@yahoogroups.com, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
>
> In a message dated 11/9/2008 10:17:44 A.M. Eastern Standard Time,  
> [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
> 
> Told  everyone Mario won't address the issue.  He's...against 
Christmas. [and 
>  earlier] It is Mario who refuses to take a postion...as he as no  
fear of 
> looking anti-America 
>  
> =
>  
> Anyone who's driven past my house at Christmas time can attest to 
the  
> silliness (baiting? antagonism?) above.
>  
> I never thought my Italian was showing that much or that the 
decorations  
> approached those "Over the Top" like those here:   
http://tinyurl.com/5nbuc2
>  
> But Joe D'Andrea commented a few years ago that he needed to wear  
protective 
> sunglasses as he drove past. 
>  
> And Dan (dfsavgny) was concerned last year about my electric bill.  
(I  
> reassured him that I used only low wattage L.E.D.s.)
>  
> So I'm seriously considering going minimalist this year.
>  
> Then again ;-)
>  
> "Anti-America"?  I had so much red white and blue draping the 
house  during 
> election week that a friend said it looked like a Fourth of July  
float.
>  
>  
> :-(
>  
>  
>  
>  
>  
>  
>  
>  
> **AOL Search: Your one stop for directions, recipes and 
all other 
> Holiday needs. Search Now. 
> (http://pr.atwola.com/promoclk/10075x1212792382x1200798498/aol?
redir=http://searchblog.aol.com/2008/11/04/happy-holidays-from
> -aol-search/?ncid=emlcntussear0001)
> 
> 
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>





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[AsburyPark] Re: WoW - TGIO

[justifiedright]

Thank you Gabbi.

You have hit the nail squarely.

Newbie and others should know that there is a general dislike for me 
on the board here (not complaining about it), stemming not from what 
I say here, but for 2 other reasons.

1st, I did write a conservative column in a local paper for 7 years.  
Asbury is a City that is as on the left as any (just voted 9-1 
Democrat on Tuesday).

It's no secret to me that many in this community will cringe as I 
start to speak or write before I get to a point, anticipating that 
what I say will be disagreeable to their personal politics.  I often 
have to tell folks here up front that I am about to agree with them 
to get them to listen.

The opposite is true in other areas where that paper is published - 
I've been invited to parties in places like Fair Haven and other 
conservative towns from people I've never met.

Second, I've alsways been a critic of the politics of Councilman 
Keady (not of him personally mind you).  This board is the habitat of 
his biggest fans.  No question there is a natural aversion to me here.

So Newbie and any other new folks, try to judge me on what I say 
here, and not what those who have a penchant to disagree with me say.



--- In AsburyPark@yahoogroups.com, "Gabrielle Obre" 
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> I know Tommy is frustrating sometimes, but look at his position as 
if
> you just met the guy. Don't think about what he's "always" doing. 
Look
> at it with beginners mind.
> 
> If you are against Columbus Day and and for Kwanzaa, you've got some
> things to reconcile. And you are probably a guilt laden whitish
> person. They are both cultural and both have some hard meaning and
> soft myth woven into them.
> 
> Columbus didn't discover america and he was a brute. yet the day has
> held importance for a long time in this country. what if columbus is
> merely a symbol of each of our own "discovery" of America?
> 
> Kwanzaa is a relatively recent celebration of a diverse culture and
> country that has suffered greatly (and is still..the rabid 
investment
> in that place scares me). More importantly, there are so many in 
this
> community that are intimately connected to African culture.
> 
> It seems perfect that these two exist together. They both have
> validity. it seems the fairest thing to do is treat them equally 
from
> the city point of view and let the communities decide their 
importance
> with personal and/or commercial support.
> 
> thats the question, how does the city treat them?
> 
> but tommy's got a point with the columbus day bashers.  and i have
> been one of them.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> --- In AsburyPark@yahoogroups.com, "justifiedright"
>  wrote:
> >
> > Newbie and AsburyCouple,
> > 
> > By Strawman you two are alleging that I have misstated Mario's 
> > position.
> > 
> > The sure test of that is for Mario to state it to see if it is 
> > different than I said.
> > 
> > You two however, having thrown the allegation at me, are then 
> > asserting you know his position.
> > 
> > So prove yourself right.
> > 
> > State Mario's position. Compare and contrast to what I said it 
was to 
> > show how what I said is different.
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > --- In AsburyPark@yahoogroups.com, "asburycouple"  
> > wrote:
> > >
> > > Those kind of "tactics" in his arguments is why for the most 
part 
> > > I've stopped getting into political discussions with Tom on the 
> > > board.  It just gets old...
> > > 
> > > Unfortunate, because stepping past the BS I believe he has much 
to 
> > > add...
> > > 
> > > 
> > > 
> > > --- In AsburyPark@yahoogroups.com, MarioAPNJ@ wrote:
> > > >
> > > > Observe below.  The tactic of introducing words never 
> > > uttered:   "clam up" 
> > > > and "insists."
> > > >  
> > > > The "Straw Man" technique.
> > > >  
> > > > Another apple of discord from the Temple of Eris.
> > > >  
> > > >  
> > > >  
> > > > In a message dated 11/9/2008 9:41:23 A.M. Eastern Standard 
Time,  
> > > > justifiedright@ writes:
> > > > 
> > > > Hey  Newb,
> > > > 
> > > > Tell me how you define "stirring the pot" and "discussing an  
> > > issue."
> > > > 
> > > > You are a person with a lot to say.  Don't clam up because  
Mario 
> > > > insists you do.
> > > > 
> > > > 
> > > > **AOL Search: Your one stop for directions, 
recipes 
> > and 
> > > all other 
> > > > Holiday needs. Search Now. 
> > > > 
> > 
(http://pr.atwola.com/promoclk/10075x1212792382x1200798498/aol?
> > > redir=http://searchblog.aol.com/2008/11/04/happy-holidays-from
> > > > -aol-search/?ncid=emlcntussear0001)
> > > > 
> > > > 
> > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> > > >
> > >
> >
>





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[AsburyPark] Re: How about we let this group focus on AP...

[justifiedright]

Kumitetoday,

I promise you I was not in the slightest way being sarcastic.

I'm honestly seeking your opinion. 

I'm interested, and have been for years, about why Councilman Keady 
each year rails against one cultural celebration (Columbus Day) by 
saying the City should not expend public money on it, but he does not 
say the same for any other cultural celebration.

Also, I'd like to know your position on the City changing the name of 
Christmas but not changing the name of Kwanzaa.  Is that consistent?




--- In AsburyPark@yahoogroups.com, "kumitetoday" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> 
wrote:
>
> --- In AsburyPark@yahoogroups.com, "justifiedright"
>  wrote:
> >
> > 
> > 
> > Can we have the benefit of your thoughts on these subjects?
> > 
> > Here is one:
> > 
> > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/AsburyPark/message/42264
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > >
> >
> 
> i guess that was meant to be sarcastic
>





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[AsburyPark] Re: WoW - TGIO

[justifiedright]

AsburyCouple thanks so much for keeping the topic about me (yes that 
was meant to be sarcastic).

You leave me no choice but to accept that you can't state Mario's 
position.  Accordingly, you saying I employed a strawman against him 
can't be true.

If you wish to opine not about me, but about whether it is 
hypocritical to support the Kwanzaa celebration (as I do) but not 
support the Columbus Day and Christmas celebrations (as Mario and 
Councilman Keady do) I'd like to hear your opinion.





--- In AsburyPark@yahoogroups.com, "asburycouple" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> 
wrote:
>
> Tom, I couldn't prove the case any better than you do with nearly 
> every message you post...  
> 
> There are countless times you have placed your own "interpretative 
> wording", defining other people's thoughts in a way that either 
skew 
> or demonize their positions while positioning that wording as if it 
> was their's, not yours.  Mario's example below is one, but there 
are 
> countless others.  I'll not debate them with you.  Instead people 
can 
> read your posts and judge for themselves.  It's likely that many 
> already have.
> 
> 
> 
> --- In AsburyPark@yahoogroups.com, "justifiedright" 
>  wrote:
> >
> > Newbie and AsburyCouple,
> > 
> > By Strawman you two are alleging that I have misstated Mario's 
> > position.
> > 
> > The sure test of that is for Mario to state it to see if it is 
> > different than I said.
> > 
> > You two however, having thrown the allegation at me, are then 
> > asserting you know his position.
> > 
> > So prove yourself right.
> > 
> > State Mario's position. Compare and contrast to what I said it 
was 
> to 
> > show how what I said is different.
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > --- In AsburyPark@yahoogroups.com, "asburycouple"  
> > wrote:
> > >
> > > Those kind of "tactics" in his arguments is why for the most 
part 
> > > I've stopped getting into political discussions with Tom on the 
> > > board.  It just gets old...
> > > 
> > > Unfortunate, because stepping past the BS I believe he has much 
> to 
> > > add...
> > > 
> > > 
> > > 
> > > --- In AsburyPark@yahoogroups.com, MarioAPNJ@ wrote:
> > > >
> > > > Observe below.  The tactic of introducing words never 
> > > uttered:   "clam up" 
> > > > and "insists."
> > > >  
> > > > The "Straw Man" technique.
> > > >  
> > > > Another apple of discord from the Temple of Eris.
> > > >  
> > > >  
> > > >  
> > > > In a message dated 11/9/2008 9:41:23 A.M. Eastern Standard 
> Time,  
> > > > justifiedright@ writes:
> > > > 
> > > > Hey  Newb,
> > > > 
> > > > Tell me how you define "stirring the pot" and "discussing an  
> > > issue."
> > > > 
> > > > You are a person with a lot to say.  Don't clam up because  
> Mario 
> > > > insists you do.
> > > > 
> > > > 
> > > > **AOL Search: Your one stop for directions, 
recipes 
> > and 
> > > all other 
> > > > Holiday needs. Search Now. 
> > > > 
> > 
(http://pr.atwola.com/promoclk/10075x1212792382x1200798498/aol?
> > > redir=http://searchblog.aol.com/2008/11/04/happy-holidays-from
> > > > -aol-search/?ncid=emlcntussear0001)
> > > > 
> > > > 
> > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> > > >
> > >
> >
>





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[AsburyPark] Re: Here Is An Asbury Park Discussion!

[justifiedright]

Remeber Sharon I support the City's Kwanzaa celebration.

I'm just trying to expose those who support it, but oppose Columbus 
Day and Christmas celebrations.

What they do in AP with Christmas, having a celebration with all the 
accouterments of Christmas, but then changing the name, is highly 
insulting to my culture and faith.

Imagine having a Kwanzaa celebration but refusing to call it Kwanzaa 
so as not to insult white people.  How highly insulting it would be 
to change the name.

That's precisely what Asbury Park does with Christmas.

If you don't wish to celebrate, don't.  To change the name as if the 
mere mention of Christ is bad couldn't be more insulting.



--- In AsburyPark@yahoogroups.com, "sharon_b283" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> 
wrote:
>
> After reading the memo twice, I gather this letter was sent to local
> businesses.  I've considered asking for donations from my group and
> still will, since it benefits the community.  What do you get from
> this appeal?  Seems the City is just offering a "location" to have
> said celebration and get "credit" for it!
> 
> --- In AsburyPark@yahoogroups.com, "justifiedright"
>  wrote:
> >
> > I've uploaded a new file to the Group.  Find it here:
> > 
> > http://tinyurl.com/62shsz
> > 
> > If anyone can't open it, it is City Letterhead sent to businesses 
> > about taking part in the City's Kwanzaa celebration, sent from 
our 
> > official "Kwanzaa Celebration Coordinator."
> > 
> > Love to hear your thoughts on this:
> > 
> > Is it an impermissible government expenditure for violating the 
> > establishment clause?
> > 
> > 
> > Is it a permissible expenditure in furtherance of supporting a 
> > cultural holiday?
> > 
> > 
> > Lots of other questions can be presented.
> > 
> > Would love to get councilman Keady's thoughts on it all.
> > 
> > I hope for a well reasoned and lively discussion with no 
> > personalizing.
> >
>





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[AsburyPark] Re: Here Is An Asbury Park Discussion!

[Gabrielle Obre]

Thanks Mario, nice read.

In another post Jennifer brings up an AP Kwanzaa celebration being
comparable to Belmar's saint pats or toms rivers halloween.  As usual,
the smartest input.




--- In AsburyPark@yahoogroups.com, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
>
> In a message dated 11/9/2008 10:17:44 A.M. Eastern Standard Time,  
> [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
> 
> Told  everyone Mario won't address the issue.
>  
> =
>  
> Arguing for the sake of arguing.
>  
> For newbees, try these sites which picked up the stories from the AP
Press  
> and the Coaster:  
>  
> From 2006 http://www.bluecorncomics.com/stype6a7.htm
>  
> And from 2008 >>>   http://www.kisikew.org/forum/topic124.html 
>  
> I found Councilman Keady's position reasonable, coming from what I
perceive  
> to be his world view: in this case, sensitive to Native/Indigenous 
Americans 
> and "the Boy Scouts â€" members of the Na-Tsi-Hi Lodge 71 from the 
Oakhurst 
> section of Ocean Township â€" [who] would not dress up as American 
Indians, greet 
> Columbus and perform tribal dances, as troop members have done in 
past years.
>  
> I also found Councilman Loffredo's statements reasonable: "That
being said,  
> what Columbus did in getting into a small boat and going across the
Atlantic  
> Ocean was more adventurous than going to the moon. In the 1400s, he
was a  
> product of his times."
>  
> Icons and Iconoclasts -- both useful in jogging our thinking.
>  
> Brings to mind the hot-button issue of flying the Confederate flag
from the  
> Capitols in some southern states. Symbols are useful when we all
agree on 
> their  meaning.  Divisive when we don't.
>  
> Focusing on hot-button issues, in the short term, is unproductive
except  for 
> demagogues.
>  
> For me, if I need affirmation for my ethnic heritage, there are
numerous  web 
> sites out there with lists of unassailable famous Italian-Americans.
  Wiki 
> has one.
>  
> But when I want to feel really proud, I need only recall my
immigrant  father 
> and first generation mother, both unschooled, but both open to
America's  
> diversity.  My mother's harshest criticism was reserved for those
among her  
> immigrant in-laws who remained provincial and whom she referred to as  
> "greenhorns."
>  
> Both worked until they reached 65.  Then both enjoyed 25 additional
 years in 
> retirement, living on their small nest egg, (FDR's) Social 
Security, private 
> hospitalization and LBJ's Medicare.
>  
>  
>  
>  
>  
>  
>  
>  
>  
>  
>  
>  
>  
>  
>  
>  
>  
>  
>  
>  
> **AOL Search: Your one stop for directions, recipes and
all other 
> Holiday needs. Search Now. 
>
(http://pr.atwola.com/promoclk/10075x1212792382x1200798498/aol?redir=http://searchblog.aol.com/2008/11/04/happy-holidays-from
> -aol-search/?ncid=emlcntussear0001)
> 
> 
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>





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[AsburyPark] Buon Natale & Happy Holidays

[MarioAPNJ]

In a message dated 11/9/2008 10:17:44 A.M. Eastern Standard Time,  
[EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:

Told  everyone Mario won't address the issue.  He's...against Christmas. [and 
 earlier] It is Mario who refuses to take a postion...as he as no  fear of 
looking anti-America 
 
=
 
Anyone who's driven past my house at Christmas time can attest to the  
silliness (baiting? antagonism?) above.
 
I never thought my Italian was showing that much or that the decorations  
approached those "Over the Top" like those here:   http://tinyurl.com/5nbuc2
 
But Joe D'Andrea commented a few years ago that he needed to wear  protective 
sunglasses as he drove past. 
 
And Dan (dfsavgny) was concerned last year about my electric bill.  (I  
reassured him that I used only low wattage L.E.D.s.)
 
So I'm seriously considering going minimalist this year.
 
Then again ;-)
 
"Anti-America"?  I had so much red white and blue draping the house  during 
election week that a friend said it looked like a Fourth of July  float.
 
 
:-(
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
**AOL Search: Your one stop for directions, recipes and all other 
Holiday needs. Search Now. 
(http://pr.atwola.com/promoclk/10075x1212792382x1200798498/aol?redir=http://searchblog.aol.com/2008/11/04/happy-holidays-from
-aol-search/?ncid=emlcntussear0001)


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




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[AsburyPark] Municipalities, Taxes, and the Stimulus Approach

[MarioAPNJ]

In a message dated 11/7/2008 6:12:35 P.M. Eastern Standard Time,  
[EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:

--- In  AsburyPark@yahoogroups.com, "dfsavgny" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>  wrote:
>
> What a guy. One of the primary short-term objectives  announced in his
> press conference is to assist local governments and  municipalities 
> that are stretched so they do not have to RAISE  TAXES.

The municipalities won't have to raise taxes.  So where  does the money 
to send to them come from?
 
=
Regarding stimulus monies to enable state and municipal projects  without 
raising taxes in the short term...
 
 
"Well, there’s no question that fighting the crisis will cost a lot of  
money. Rescuing the financial system will probably require large outlays beyond 
 
the funds already disbursed. And on top of that, we badly need a program of  
increased government spending to support output and employment. Could next  
year’
s federal budget deficit reach $1 trillion? Yes.
 
 
"But standard textbook economics says that it’s O.K., in fact appropriate, to 
 run temporary deficits in the face of a depressed  economy."   --  Paul 
Krugman,  (latest recipient  of the Nobel Prize in Economic Sciences):  
_http://www.nytimes.com/2008/11/07/opinion/07krugman.html?em_ 
(http://www.nytimes.com/2008/11/07/opinion/07krugman.html?em)  
Results from Google's Scholar Search,   http://tinyurl.com/6dtg7s ,  confirm 
Krugman's "O.K."  above. 
http://scholar.google.com/advanced_scholar_search   is cool.   Filters out 
the blogorrhea.   
Both left and right economists agree, for now, that with our economy in  
"cardiac arrest," deficit hawks need to to take a back seat. 
In a message dated 11/9/2008 10:27:15 A.M. Eastern Standard Time,  
[EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: 
The same  place Bush got the 750 Billion to bail out Wall St, that's
where!  You  know, "something" for the "little people",  US!

 
Consensus now seems to be growing that even more will be needed.
 
**AOL Search: Your one stop for directions, recipes and all other 
Holiday needs. Search Now. 
(http://pr.atwola.com/promoclk/10075x1212792382x1200798498/aol?redir=http://searchblog.aol.com/2008/11/04/happy-holidays-from
-aol-search/?ncid=emlcntussear0001)


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




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Re: [AsburyPark] Re: Here Is An Asbury Park Discussion!

[MarioAPNJ]

In a message dated 11/9/2008 10:17:44 A.M. Eastern Standard Time,  
[EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:

Told  everyone Mario won't address the issue.
 
=
 
Arguing for the sake of arguing.
 
For newbees, try these sites which picked up the stories from the AP Press  
and the Coaster:  
 
>From 2006 http://www.bluecorncomics.com/stype6a7.htm
 
And from 2008 >>>   http://www.kisikew.org/forum/topic124.html 
 
I found Councilman Keady's position reasonable, coming from what I perceive  
to be his world view: in this case, sensitive to Native/Indigenous  Americans 
and "the Boy Scouts — members of the Na-Tsi-Hi Lodge 71 from the  Oakhurst 
section of Ocean Township — [who] would not dress up as American  Indians, 
greet 
Columbus and perform tribal dances, as troop members have done in  past years.
 
I also found Councilman Loffredo's statements reasonable: "That being said,  
what Columbus did in getting into a small boat and going across the Atlantic  
Ocean was more adventurous than going to the moon. In the 1400s, he was a  
product of his times."
 
Icons and Iconoclasts -- both useful in jogging our thinking.
 
Brings to mind the hot-button issue of flying the Confederate flag from the  
Capitols in some southern states. Symbols are useful when we all agree on 
their  meaning.  Divisive when we don't.
 
Focusing on hot-button issues, in the short term, is unproductive except  for 
demagogues.
 
For me, if I need affirmation for my ethnic heritage, there are numerous  web 
sites out there with lists of unassailable famous Italian-Americans.   Wiki 
has one.
 
But when I want to feel really proud, I need only recall my immigrant  father 
and first generation mother, both unschooled, but both open to America's  
diversity.  My mother's harshest criticism was reserved for those among her  
immigrant in-laws who remained provincial and whom she referred to as  
"greenhorns."
 
Both worked until they reached 65.  Then both enjoyed 25 additional  years in 
retirement, living on their small nest egg, (FDR's) Social  Security, private 
hospitalization and LBJ's Medicare.
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
**AOL Search: Your one stop for directions, recipes and all other 
Holiday needs. Search Now. 
(http://pr.atwola.com/promoclk/10075x1212792382x1200798498/aol?redir=http://searchblog.aol.com/2008/11/04/happy-holidays-from
-aol-search/?ncid=emlcntussear0001)


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




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[AsburyPark] Re: Here Is An Asbury Park Discussion!

[Jennifer]

--- In AsburyPark@yahoogroups.com, "justifiedright" 
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> It is Mario who refuses to take a postion on Kwanzaa as he bashed 
> Columbus Day, as he as no fear of looking anti-America but is deathly 
> fearful of looking anti-African.
> 

For someone who loves to reply that he is a victim of personalization, 
I must ask why you are psychoanalyzing Mario?  

Back to the AP discussion, let's continue to celebrate holidays as a 
community.  We have been blessed with wonderful, diverse mosaic of 
cultures and people.  Celebrations unify us.  You can't put a price on 
that.  




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[AsburyPark] Re: WoW - TGIO

[Jennifer]

Maybe the person in charge of coordinating the city's participation has 
volunteered his/her time in this capacity.  Perhaps there is a 
corporate sponsor or sponsors?  I doubt that this celebration or any 
others that bring the community or parts of the community together will 
break the AP bank.  I own a house there, pay my property taxes and feel 
very comfortable to have a portion of them go towards community 
celebrations.

Why?  Celebration of holidays (secular, national, religious) may bring 
people into the city that otherwise wouldn't have come.  Belmar puts on 
a huge Saint Patrick's day parade.  Toms River has people come from all 
over to their Halloween parade. 
 
According to the NJ Living site:
Each year, in the month of December, the city of Asbury Park presents 
an annual Kwanzaa Celebration honoring the past, present and future of 
ita African American community.  This special event includes 
performance groups and guest speakers.  

 





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[AsburyPark] Re: WoW - TGIO

[asburycouple]

I'm also very happy with the progress and work that's been done on 
the boardwalk.  That said as a homeowner and taxpayer I do think 
setting expectations that are wildly missed goes well 
beyond "marketing" as the city must plan for the revenues promised 
per the promises made.  Honestly I'd have been just as happy has 
realistic expectations been set and met vs. setting the expectation 
that this would all get done by Memorial Day when pretty much 
everyone knew that was impossible.  It's not like they missd it by a 
month - they're still not done.  That has financial impacts for the 
city that go well beyond the marketing buzz.

Again, I'm very pleased with the progress and the pace.  But in 
fairness to the city they should have been realistic.

--- In AsburyPark@yahoogroups.com, "Gabrielle Obre" 
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> this is mocking
> 
> 
> "
> > > Last report was that you are $13 million in the hole
> > > from non-redevelopment. OOps there's that timetable again.
> > >"
> 
> Newbee, as I have stated many times, I have witnessed many people
> enjoying this beautiful little city by the sea over and over and 
over
> again. You are obviously disappointed. The people I saw here over 
the
> summer bathing, dancing, drinking, eating etc didn't seem 
disappointed
> to me. The coming summers will tell us something. It is clear that 
you
> think things should be done differently. 
> 
> As much as I loathe marketing ploys, they seem to work. There was a
> lot of action on the BW this summer. I'll be sure to keep you up to
> date next summer.
> 
> 
> 
> --- In AsburyPark@yahoogroups.com, "New Beetoap"  
wrote:
> >
> > 
> > I'm not mocking it. I'm pointing out that if AP wants to attract
> > repeat visitors who spend $$$ it would be better not to 
misrepresent
> > what to expect.
> > 
> > As to evidence, just do some research as I said. 
> > The NY Times, The Coaster, The Asbury Park Press, The Star 
ledger...
> > This boards archives, Online Blogs.
> > 
> > Even a member here, dasher (?) said it was a marketing ploy to 
drum
> > up hype. Well hype with no substance leads to disappointment.
> > 
> > 
> > --- In AsburyPark@yahoogroups.com, "Gabrielle Obre" 

> wrote:
> > >
> > > newbee...EVERYONE with opinions likes to be right! You keep 
mocking
> > > the failure of the BW to be finished even though there isn't 
anything
> > > solid that says it was meant to be finished. You are just as 
attached
> > > to being right as anyone.
> >
>





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[AsburyPark] Re: WoW - TGIO

[Gabrielle Obre]

this is mocking


"
> > Last report was that you are $13 million in the hole
> > from non-redevelopment. OOps there's that timetable again.
> >"

Newbee, as I have stated many times, I have witnessed many people
enjoying this beautiful little city by the sea over and over and over
again. You are obviously disappointed. The people I saw here over the
summer bathing, dancing, drinking, eating etc didn't seem disappointed
to me. The coming summers will tell us something. It is clear that you
think things should be done differently. 

As much as I loathe marketing ploys, they seem to work. There was a
lot of action on the BW this summer. I'll be sure to keep you up to
date next summer.



--- In AsburyPark@yahoogroups.com, "New Beetoap" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> 
> I'm not mocking it. I'm pointing out that if AP wants to attract
> repeat visitors who spend $$$ it would be better not to misrepresent
> what to expect.
> 
> As to evidence, just do some research as I said. 
> The NY Times, The Coaster, The Asbury Park Press, The Star ledger...
> This boards archives, Online Blogs.
> 
> Even a member here, dasher (?) said it was a marketing ploy to drum
> up hype. Well hype with no substance leads to disappointment.
> 
> 
> --- In AsburyPark@yahoogroups.com, "Gabrielle Obre" 
wrote:
> >
> > newbee...EVERYONE with opinions likes to be right! You keep mocking
> > the failure of the BW to be finished even though there isn't anything
> > solid that says it was meant to be finished. You are just as attached
> > to being right as anyone.
>





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[AsburyPark] Re: Here Is An Asbury Park Discussion!

[sharon_b283]

Well spoken!

--- In AsburyPark@yahoogroups.com, "Michael W. Brim" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> So if one is against using public funds for the Kwanzaa celebration,
> shouldn't we also think about the public money spent on 4th of July
and the
> annual Holiday Lights? And Columbus Day as pointed out below.
> 
>  
> 
> Those two mean a lot to the community, as Kwanzaa does!
> 
>  
> 
> From: AsburyPark@yahoogroups.com [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
> Behalf Of [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Sent: Sunday, November 09, 2008 7:00 AM
> To: AsburyPark@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: Re: [AsburyPark] Re: Here Is An Asbury Park Discussion!
> 
>  
> 
> Another Apple of Discord. Hail, Eris!
> 
> 
> In a message dated 11/8/2008 9:02:56 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, 
> [EMAIL PROTECTED]   writes:
> 
> Well Mario, not everyone was here in years past. I would like to 
> hear from new people about what they think.
> 
> Also, Councilman Keady did again just last month, rail against the 
> expenditure of public funds for Columbus Day, a cultural celebration.
> 
> I don't know the answer of whether he objects to the public 
> expenditure of money for the Kwanzaa cultural celebration.
> 
> Seems a fair question to ask of a public official.
> 
> If you are out there Councilman Keady, I hope you will make a 
> clarifying statement.
> 





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[AsburyPark] Re: WoW - TGIO

[sharon_b283]

Before you type, read!

http://www.thehistorymakers.com/biography/biography.asp?bioindex=378&category=Educationmakers

--- In AsburyPark@yahoogroups.com, "justifiedright"
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> --- In AsburyPark@yahoogroups.com, MarioAPNJ@ wrote:
> >
> > It's for Asbury Park residents to decide.  
> 
> And for we on this board to discuss this important Asbury Park issue.
> 
> 
> >Apparently the majority  >here 
> > never considered Kwanzaa to be "infused with religion"; we 
> >acknowledge it  as a 
> > cultural celebration.
> 
> The founder of Kwanzaa does; he's waffled back and forth on the 
> religious aspect of it.
> 
> Let's not bore everyone where you link quotes where he said it wasn't 
> and I link quotes where he said it was.
> 
> The issue is a natural lead in to how the Asbury Park Chamber of 
> Commerce bills its December celebrations as 'Winter Festival" despite 
> the presence of decorated trees, wrapped presents, shining stars and 
> Santa Claus.
> 
> The debate is religiously infused.
> 
> > My position was in favor of consistency, no matter how you want to 
> >twist my  
> > words back in 2006-2007: this city should sponsor either all 
> >cultural  
> > celebrations or none.
> 
> Pick one then - should they fund the cultural celebrations or not.
> 
> 
> > If Councilman Keady decides to speak for himself, his position 
> >should be  
> > directed to his Asbury Park residents, his constituency; not to 
> >culture  warriors 
> > armed with chaff from the blogorrhea.  In the past, he has wisely  
> >avoided 
> > that bait.
> 
> Personalizing.
> 
> The Councilman should make his position on the City's Kwanzaa 
> celebration with as mush heft as he used to vigorously oppose the 
> Columbus Celebration.
> 
> > And this from someone who, like you, who did not support his 
> >candidacy in  
> > the last election.
> 
> So if I did not support him and he won, I should no longer be allowed 
> to speak?
> 
> He completely Obama of you!
>





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[AsburyPark] Re: WoW - TGIO

[sharon_b283]

The Asbury Park "Blogorrhea"!  Is that like diarhea of post talk? 
Interesting word!

--- In AsburyPark@yahoogroups.com, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
>
> It's for Asbury Park residents to decide.  Apparently the majority 
here 
> never considered Kwanzaa to be "infused with religion"; we
acknowledge it  as a 
> cultural celebration.
>  
> My position was in favor of consistency, no matter how you want to
twist my  
> words back in 2006-2007: this city should sponsor either all cultural  
> celebrations or none.
>  
> If Councilman Keady decides to speak for himself, his position
should be  
> directed to his Asbury Park residents, his constituency; not to
culture  warriors 
> armed with chaff from the blogorrhea.  In the past, he has wisely 
avoided 
> that bait.
>  
> And this from someone who, like you, who did not support his
candidacy in  
> the last election.  Inconsistent?  No, just fair minded.
>  
> ==.
>  
> In a message dated 11/9/2008 8:34:43 A.M. Eastern Standard Time,  
> [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
>  
> Make up  your own mind, Newb, as should anyone else.
> 
> We are talking about the  public expenditure of tax dollars by the 
> Asbury Park City council, infused  with religion an culture.
> 
> Mario does not want it discussed because when  it gets discussed, it 
> shows an inconsistency in his postion.
> 
> The  same may or may not be true for Councilman Keady, but I'll let 
> him speak  for himself.
> 
> My guess is he will not respond, or if he does, not  fully.
> 
> 






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[AsburyPark] Re: WoW - TGIO

[sharon_b283]

While you're at it, why not ask the other 4 what THEY think?  Last
time I looked there were 5 Council Members!  The Letterhead reads City
of Asbury Park!  Kwanzaa is NOT a religion!  It is a celebration of
culture, nothing else!  Since you don't live here anymore, what
business is it of yours?

--- In AsburyPark@yahoogroups.com, "justifiedright"
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> Make up your own mind, Newb, as should anyone else.
> 
> We are talking about the public expenditure of tax dollars by the 
> Asbury Park City council, infused with religion an culture.
> 
> Mario does not want it discussed because when it gets discussed, it 
> shows an inconsistency in his postion.
> 
> The same may or may not be true for Councilman Keady, but I'll let 
> him speak for himself.
> 
> My guess is he will not respond, or if he does, not fully.
> 
> 
> 
> --- In AsburyPark@yahoogroups.com, MarioAPNJ@ wrote:
> >
> > Don't worry about it, Newbee.  It's NOT really about AP.  It's  
> about culture 
> > wars being imposed on Asbury Park from the outside: Kwanzaa vs.  
> Columbus 
> > Day, tangents to Merry Christmas vs. Happy Holidays, and 
> inflammatory  remarks 
> > about an elected official here in town.
> >  
> > The majority of us who live here have long ago dismissed all of 
> the above;  
> > they're not serious issues for this town; they're just divisive.





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RE: [AsburyPark] Re: Here Is An Asbury Park Discussion!

[Michael W. Brim]

Since you asked:

 

As far as Columbus Day goes, I have attended several since moving to the
area (from Pittsburgh PA via Daytona Beach FL were Columbus Day is not big
thing in these areas as they are here in the NY and NY area) and have found
the celebration of Columbus landing of great interest!  Have learned a
number of things from the presentations, like how bad a guy he was, but
overall he played a MAJOR roll in what we have here in Asbury Park.  A great
place to live, work and play.

 

The celebration draw a good number of people this year, with so much going
on the boardwalk that day .. But was missing from Columbus Day event were
the young Indians! 

 

Because of the wide culture makeup of Asbury Park, "Holiday Season" works
for me,  it includes Yule, Hanukkah and Boxing Day, to name a few of the
events the term covers. 

"Holiday season" includes those who do not celebrate Christmas in an
end-year festive spirit and gives us religious neutrality. 

 

Michael

 

 

From: AsburyPark@yahoogroups.com [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of justifiedright
Sent: Sunday, November 09, 2008 9:49 AM
To: AsburyPark@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [AsburyPark] Re: Here Is An Asbury Park Discussion!

 

--- In AsburyPark@yahoogroups.com  ,
"Michael W. Brim" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> 
wrote:
>
> So if one is against using public funds for the Kwanzaa celebration,
> shouldn't we also think about the public money spent on 4th of July 
and the
> annual Holiday Lights? And Columbus Day as pointed out below.
> 
> 
> 
> Those two mean a lot to the community, as Kwanzaa does!

Michael Brim you and I are then in exact agreement. 

The archives here show I support the Kwanzaa celebration, as I 
support the other cultural celebrations.

It is Mario who refuses to take a postion on Kwanzaa as he bashed 
Columbus Day, as he as no fear of looking anti-America but is deathly 
fearful of looking anti-African.

For the same reason, Keady will bash Columbus Day and rage on (as he 
did last month again) about the use of public funds for a cultural 
holiday (Columbus Day) but stays silent on Kwanzaa. 

Yet Keady supports completely the cultural insult to many that comes 
from the Chamber of Commerce refusing to use the word Christmas at 
all, in any advertisement or event.

Since you weighed in, Michael, where are you on the Columbus 
Celebration and the Chamber's refusal to use the word "Christmas?"

 



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[AsburyPark] Re: Here Is An Asbury Park Discussion!

[kumitetoday]

--- In AsburyPark@yahoogroups.com, "Michael W. Brim" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> So if one is against using public funds for the Kwanzaa celebration,
> shouldn't we also think about the public money spent on 4th of July
and the
> annual Holiday Lights? And Columbus Day as pointed out below.
> 
>  
> 
> Those two mean a lot to the community, as Kwanzaa does!
> 
>  
> 
>
>


Asbury supports other events important to the community, so i see no
reason not to support Kwanzaa. 




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[AsburyPark] Re: WoW - TGIO

[asburycouple]

Yes, Tom has a point and if you can look past his Rovian way of 
attacking and/or manipulating the positions of those who come from a 
different perspective he usually does.  He's one of the smartest 
people on this board and could bring a great, thought provoking 
alternative view to many of the discussions.  But his debate tactics 
result in a discounting of the ideas he's actually articulating and 
make the argument more about him than about the point of view.  
Unfortunate, but also clearly exactly the way he likes it.




--- In AsburyPark@yahoogroups.com, "Gabrielle Obre" 
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> I know Tommy is frustrating sometimes, but look at his position as 
if
> you just met the guy. Don't think about what he's "always" doing. 
Look
> at it with beginners mind.
> 
> If you are against Columbus Day and and for Kwanzaa, you've got some
> things to reconcile. And you are probably a guilt laden whitish
> person. They are both cultural and both have some hard meaning and
> soft myth woven into them.
> 
> Columbus didn't discover america and he was a brute. yet the day has
> held importance for a long time in this country. what if columbus is
> merely a symbol of each of our own "discovery" of America?
> 
> Kwanzaa is a relatively recent celebration of a diverse culture and
> country that has suffered greatly (and is still..the rabid 
investment
> in that place scares me). More importantly, there are so many in 
this
> community that are intimately connected to African culture.
> 
> It seems perfect that these two exist together. They both have
> validity. it seems the fairest thing to do is treat them equally 
from
> the city point of view and let the communities decide their 
importance
> with personal and/or commercial support.
> 
> thats the question, how does the city treat them?
> 
> but tommy's got a point with the columbus day bashers.  and i have
> been one of them.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> --- In AsburyPark@yahoogroups.com, "justifiedright"
>  wrote:
> >
> > Newbie and AsburyCouple,
> > 
> > By Strawman you two are alleging that I have misstated Mario's 
> > position.
> > 
> > The sure test of that is for Mario to state it to see if it is 
> > different than I said.
> > 
> > You two however, having thrown the allegation at me, are then 
> > asserting you know his position.
> > 
> > So prove yourself right.
> > 
> > State Mario's position. Compare and contrast to what I said it 
was to 
> > show how what I said is different.
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > --- In AsburyPark@yahoogroups.com, "asburycouple"  
> > wrote:
> > >
> > > Those kind of "tactics" in his arguments is why for the most 
part 
> > > I've stopped getting into political discussions with Tom on the 
> > > board.  It just gets old...
> > > 
> > > Unfortunate, because stepping past the BS I believe he has much 
to 
> > > add...
> > > 
> > > 
> > > 
> > > --- In AsburyPark@yahoogroups.com, MarioAPNJ@ wrote:
> > > >
> > > > Observe below.  The tactic of introducing words never 
> > > uttered:   "clam up" 
> > > > and "insists."
> > > >  
> > > > The "Straw Man" technique.
> > > >  
> > > > Another apple of discord from the Temple of Eris.
> > > >  
> > > >  
> > > >  
> > > > In a message dated 11/9/2008 9:41:23 A.M. Eastern Standard 
Time,  
> > > > justifiedright@ writes:
> > > > 
> > > > Hey  Newb,
> > > > 
> > > > Tell me how you define "stirring the pot" and "discussing an  
> > > issue."
> > > > 
> > > > You are a person with a lot to say.  Don't clam up because  
Mario 
> > > > insists you do.
> > > > 
> > > > 
> > > > **AOL Search: Your one stop for directions, 
recipes 
> > and 
> > > all other 
> > > > Holiday needs. Search Now. 
> > > > 
> > 
(http://pr.atwola.com/promoclk/10075x1212792382x1200798498/aol?
> > > redir=http://searchblog.aol.com/2008/11/04/happy-holidays-from
> > > > -aol-search/?ncid=emlcntussear0001)
> > > > 
> > > > 
> > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> > > >
> > >
> >
>





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[AsburyPark] Re: Hear about the proposed plan to build a liquefied natural gas (LNG) plant off the shore of Monmouth County, namely Asbury Park

[sharon_b283]

That report says it all, for me!  45 minutes to shove it down our
throats!  Un-huh, let them build it off Deal, Long Branch or Sandy
Hook and see how receptive it'll be!

--- In AsburyPark@yahoogroups.com, "Gabrielle Obre"
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> Here is a link to the COA page on the LNG project
> 
> http://www.cleanoceanaction.org/index.php?id=636
> 
> 
> 
> --- In AsburyPark@yahoogroups.com, "Gabrielle Obre"
>  wrote:
> >
> > Assuming this is the info...
> > 
> >Guest Speaker(12:50PM –   1:35PM)
> > 
> > Roger Whelan, President ~ Liberty Natural Gas
> > 
> > Be the first to find out about the proposed Liberty Natural Gas
> > project located 16.5 miles off Asbury Park in Federal Waters and get a
> > detailed look at its innovative technology and benefits to NJ
> residents!!!
> > 
> > 
> > I hate to have to point this out, but i don't see how it can be an
> > "open Conversation" with 45 minutes slotted to the pres of LNG. and
> > though the APCC may not have taken a position the line ending with
> > "benefits to NJ residents!!!" has the distinctive whiff of a
> > cheerleader (! x 3). 
> > 
> > I honestly don't understand enough about this to have an opinion and
> > while I appreciate the effort, there is no way I am going to fully
> > understand it by listening to 45 minutes from a guy who stands to gain
> > financially from it. 
> > 
> > It will bring on a flashback of listening to the Desperanza Man
> > touting its fortitude a few months before it went limp.
> > 
> > No disrespect and thanks for posting, I just need to point out that
> > there is nothing "open" about what this info seems to suggest will
> > take place. 
> > 
> > Clean Ocean Action has a report that is not so favorable obviously. I
> > have not read it yet.
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > --- In AsburyPark@yahoogroups.com, "Michael W. Brim"  wrote:
> > >
> > > This coming Wednesday, November 12th the Asbury Park Chamber of
> Commerce
> > > (APCC)  is hosting, as part of their luncheon series, the president
> > of the
> > > Liberty Natural Gas, Roger Whelen. He will be talking about his
> > company's
> > > proposed plan to build a liquefied natural gas (LNG) plant off the
> > shore of
> > > Monmouth County, namely Asbury Park, which will be followed by a
> > questions
> > > and answer period. The Q&A portions of the program are usually very
> > > engaging!
> > > 
> > >   
> > > 
> > > The APCC uses these series to open the line of communications to
their
> > > members on various issues which will affect its membership and other
> > > businesses in the area. 
> > > 
> > > 
> > > 
> > > The APCC has not taken a position on the LNG project, at this
> point they
> > > have only stepped up to the plate to have an open conversation!
> > > 
> > >   
> > > 
> > > For me this conversation will enable me to make up my mind on the
> > project
> > > and how I will move forward in opposition or support of the LNG with
> > > businesses and organizations I come in contact with daily.  On the
> > > municipally level, should I lobby the City of Asbury Park to
join with
> > > Bradley Beach, Long Branch, Manasquan, Twp of Neptune, Sea
Bright and
> > > Shrewsbury in opposition?
> > > 
> > >   
> > > 
> > > I personally encourage you and other environment minded people to
> > attend the
> > > luncheon so we can get and have a full conversation on LNG!
> > > 
> > >  
> > > 
> > > For additional information go to the APCC's website:
> > > www.asburyparkchamber.com
> > > 
> > >  
> > > 
> > > Thanks you for your time and consideration!
> > > 
> > >  
> > > 
> > > Michael W.  Brim
> > > 
> > > 321 Sunset Avenue, Unit 5F
> > > 
> > > Asbury Park NJ 07712-5550
> > > 
> > > Cell: 732-996-8160
> > > 
> > >  
> > > 
> > > 
> > > 
> > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> > >
> >
>





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[AsburyPark] Re: WoW - TGIO

[New Beetoap]

I'm not mocking it. I'm pointing out that if AP wants to attract
repeat visitors who spend $$$ it would be better not to misrepresent
what to expect.

As to evidence, just do some research as I said. 
The NY Times, The Coaster, The Asbury Park Press, The Star ledger...
This boards archives, Online Blogs.

Even a member here, dasher (?) said it was a marketing ploy to drum
up hype. Well hype with no substance leads to disappointment.


--- In AsburyPark@yahoogroups.com, "Gabrielle Obre" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> newbee...EVERYONE with opinions likes to be right! You keep mocking
> the failure of the BW to be finished even though there isn't anything
> solid that says it was meant to be finished. You are just as attached
> to being right as anyone.






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[AsburyPark] Re: How about we let this group focus on AP...

[Gabrielle Obre]

--- In AsburyPark@yahoogroups.com, "kumitetoday" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> 
> i guess that was meant to be sarcastic
>

i think it was meant to see how willing you were to be engaged in AP
topics since you think other conversations should be silenced.





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[AsburyPark] Re: Here Is An Asbury Park Discussion!

[Gabrielle Obre]

here is your sarcasm

"
> > Last report was that you are $13 million in the hole
> > from non-redevelopment. OOps there's that timetable again.
> >"


--- In AsburyPark@yahoogroups.com, "New Beetoap" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> I'm really can't figure you out... Where did you get sarcastic from ??
> I was asking if you were to one who asked about the budget, A simple
> yes or no would be fine.
> 
> I can't give you insight as I know nothing about it. Other than what
i said.
> My understanding is that AP is $13 Million short due to
redevelopment not
> being done. If someone , like you say 'more knowledgeable' can speak
to that
> fine.
> 
> Shouldn't the business community be doing the marketing under the
> circumstances?
> 
> I dont know way you want to continue arguing with me I though we agreed
> to disagree? You are fine with things not finished. I was told they
would be
> finished. Why don't you just look up the records yourself?
> 
> And bringing up werner who seems, from the archives, to know more than
> anyone about what has gone on serves what purpose?
> 
> This is why its so frustrating on this board, noone seems to stay on
topic.
> 
> 
>  --- In AsburyPark@yahoogroups.com, "Gabrielle Obre"
 wrote:
> >
> > You can only discuss the budget with others willing to discuss it. Did
> > you respond to my request for some insight on the budget?
> > 
> > sarcasm doesn't really work well in genuine dialogue. And as far as
> > the more knowledgeable people on the board go redevelopment is not
> > supposed to be finished at the moment. 
> > 
> > Are you like werner, projecting your own failure to finish projects
> > onto others? We'll never know, because you need to be anonymous.
> > 
> > --- In AsburyPark@yahoogroups.com, "New Beetoap"  wrote:
> > >
> > > Wasn't it you that wanted to talk about the budget?
> > > Am I mistaken?
> > > 
> > > Like I said, this seems like an economics issue.
> > > AP is broke$$$ from what I hear. Shouldn't they cut
> > > all these expenses and encourage the business community
> > > to take up the cause?
> > > 
> > > That takes the town being selective of certain
> > > religious/cultural support out of the picture.
> > > 
> > > Last report was that you are $13 million in the hole
> > > from non-redevelopment. OOps there's that timetable again.
> > >
>





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[AsburyPark] Re: WoW - TGIO

[Gabrielle Obre]

newbee...EVERYONE with opinions likes to be right! You keep mocking
the failure of the BW to be finished even though there isn't anything
solid that says it was meant to be finished. You are just as attached
to being right as anyone.

tommy has gone at me as well. I have never felt marginalized or
discounted. i am an adult. if he pisses me off that's my problem and
my failure to think more about how to respond. he's an attorney. if
nothing else they make you think, or stomp off like a petulant child.
your choice.

--- In AsburyPark@yahoogroups.com, "New Beetoap" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> Someone else posted the characterization of...
> 
> ---Argument-For-Arguments-Sake---
> 
> And needing to be right .. I'm seeing it now...
> maybe the reason for your handle 'Justifiedright'
> 
> Man I'm getting a real enlightening through the archives.
> There are/were some very well informed intellegent people
> on this board.
> 
> I don't understand the predisposition to discount and
> marginalize them. Along with that some real tunnel vision
> also.
> 
> 
> --- In AsburyPark@yahoogroups.com, "justifiedright"
 wrote:
> >
> > Newbie and AsburyCouple,
> > 
> > By Strawman you two are alleging that I have misstated Mario's 
> > position.
> > 
> > The sure test of that is for Mario to state it to see if it is 
> > different than I said.
> > 
> > You two however, having thrown the allegation at me, are then 
> > asserting you know his position.
> > 
> > So prove yourself right.
> > 
> > State Mario's position. Compare and contrast to what I said it was to 
> > show how what I said is different.
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > --- In AsburyPark@yahoogroups.com, "asburycouple"  
> > wrote:
> > >
> > > Those kind of "tactics" in his arguments is why for the most part 
> > > I've stopped getting into political discussions with Tom on the 
> > > board.  It just gets old...
> > > 
> > > Unfortunate, because stepping past the BS I believe he has much to 
> > > add...
> > > 
> > > 
> > > 
> > > --- In AsburyPark@yahoogroups.com, MarioAPNJ@ wrote:
> > > >
> > > > Observe below.  The tactic of introducing words never 
> > > uttered:   "clam up" 
> > > > and "insists."
> > > >  
> > > > The "Straw Man" technique.
> > > >  
> > > > Another apple of discord from the Temple of Eris.
> > > >  
> > > >  
> > > >  
> > > > In a message dated 11/9/2008 9:41:23 A.M. Eastern Standard Time,  
> > > > justifiedright@ writes:
> > > > 
> > > > Hey  Newb,
> > > > 
> > > > Tell me how you define "stirring the pot" and "discussing an  
> > > issue."
> > > > 
> > > > You are a person with a lot to say.  Don't clam up because  Mario 
> > > > insists you do.
> > > > 
> > > > 
> > > > **AOL Search: Your one stop for directions, recipes 
> > and 
> > > all other 
> > > > Holiday needs. Search Now. 
> > > > 
> > (http://pr.atwola.com/promoclk/10075x1212792382x1200798498/aol?
> > > redir=http://searchblog.aol.com/2008/11/04/happy-holidays-from
> > > > -aol-search/?ncid=emlcntussear0001)
> > > > 
> > > > 
> > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> > > >
> > >
> >
>





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[AsburyPark] Re: How about we let this group focus on AP...

[kumitetoday]

--- In AsburyPark@yahoogroups.com, "justifiedright"
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> 
> 
> Can we have the benefit of your thoughts on these subjects?
> 
> Here is one:
> 
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/AsburyPark/message/42264
> 
> 
> 
> >
>

i guess that was meant to be sarcastic




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[AsburyPark] Re: WoW - TGIO

[Gabrielle Obre]

I know Tommy is frustrating sometimes, but look at his position as if
you just met the guy. Don't think about what he's "always" doing. Look
at it with beginners mind.

If you are against Columbus Day and and for Kwanzaa, you've got some
things to reconcile. And you are probably a guilt laden whitish
person. They are both cultural and both have some hard meaning and
soft myth woven into them.

Columbus didn't discover america and he was a brute. yet the day has
held importance for a long time in this country. what if columbus is
merely a symbol of each of our own "discovery" of America?

Kwanzaa is a relatively recent celebration of a diverse culture and
country that has suffered greatly (and is still..the rabid investment
in that place scares me). More importantly, there are so many in this
community that are intimately connected to African culture.

It seems perfect that these two exist together. They both have
validity. it seems the fairest thing to do is treat them equally from
the city point of view and let the communities decide their importance
with personal and/or commercial support.

thats the question, how does the city treat them?

but tommy's got a point with the columbus day bashers.  and i have
been one of them.





--- In AsburyPark@yahoogroups.com, "justifiedright"
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> Newbie and AsburyCouple,
> 
> By Strawman you two are alleging that I have misstated Mario's 
> position.
> 
> The sure test of that is for Mario to state it to see if it is 
> different than I said.
> 
> You two however, having thrown the allegation at me, are then 
> asserting you know his position.
> 
> So prove yourself right.
> 
> State Mario's position. Compare and contrast to what I said it was to 
> show how what I said is different.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> --- In AsburyPark@yahoogroups.com, "asburycouple"  
> wrote:
> >
> > Those kind of "tactics" in his arguments is why for the most part 
> > I've stopped getting into political discussions with Tom on the 
> > board.  It just gets old...
> > 
> > Unfortunate, because stepping past the BS I believe he has much to 
> > add...
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > --- In AsburyPark@yahoogroups.com, MarioAPNJ@ wrote:
> > >
> > > Observe below.  The tactic of introducing words never 
> > uttered:   "clam up" 
> > > and "insists."
> > >  
> > > The "Straw Man" technique.
> > >  
> > > Another apple of discord from the Temple of Eris.
> > >  
> > >  
> > >  
> > > In a message dated 11/9/2008 9:41:23 A.M. Eastern Standard Time,  
> > > justifiedright@ writes:
> > > 
> > > Hey  Newb,
> > > 
> > > Tell me how you define "stirring the pot" and "discussing an  
> > issue."
> > > 
> > > You are a person with a lot to say.  Don't clam up because  Mario 
> > > insists you do.
> > > 
> > > 
> > > **AOL Search: Your one stop for directions, recipes 
> and 
> > all other 
> > > Holiday needs. Search Now. 
> > > 
> (http://pr.atwola.com/promoclk/10075x1212792382x1200798498/aol?
> > redir=http://searchblog.aol.com/2008/11/04/happy-holidays-from
> > > -aol-search/?ncid=emlcntussear0001)
> > > 
> > > 
> > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> > >
> >
>





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[AsburyPark] Re: Here Is An Asbury Park Discussion!

[New Beetoap]

I'm really can't figure you out... Where did you get sarcastic from ??
I was asking if you were to one who asked about the budget, A simple
yes or no would be fine.

I can't give you insight as I know nothing about it. Other than what i said.
My understanding is that AP is $13 Million short due to redevelopment not
being done. If someone , like you say 'more knowledgeable' can speak to that
fine.

Shouldn't the business community be doing the marketing under the
circumstances?

I dont know way you want to continue arguing with me I though we agreed
to disagree? You are fine with things not finished. I was told they would be
finished. Why don't you just look up the records yourself?

And bringing up werner who seems, from the archives, to know more than
anyone about what has gone on serves what purpose?

This is why its so frustrating on this board, noone seems to stay on topic.


 --- In AsburyPark@yahoogroups.com, "Gabrielle Obre" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> You can only discuss the budget with others willing to discuss it. Did
> you respond to my request for some insight on the budget?
> 
> sarcasm doesn't really work well in genuine dialogue. And as far as
> the more knowledgeable people on the board go redevelopment is not
> supposed to be finished at the moment. 
> 
> Are you like werner, projecting your own failure to finish projects
> onto others? We'll never know, because you need to be anonymous.
> 
> --- In AsburyPark@yahoogroups.com, "New Beetoap"  wrote:
> >
> > Wasn't it you that wanted to talk about the budget?
> > Am I mistaken?
> > 
> > Like I said, this seems like an economics issue.
> > AP is broke$$$ from what I hear. Shouldn't they cut
> > all these expenses and encourage the business community
> > to take up the cause?
> > 
> > That takes the town being selective of certain
> > religious/cultural support out of the picture.
> > 
> > Last report was that you are $13 million in the hole
> > from non-redevelopment. OOps there's that timetable again.
> > 






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[AsburyPark] Re: WoW - TGIO

[asburycouple]

Tom, I couldn't prove the case any better than you do with nearly 
every message you post...  

There are countless times you have placed your own "interpretative 
wording", defining other people's thoughts in a way that either skew 
or demonize their positions while positioning that wording as if it 
was their's, not yours.  Mario's example below is one, but there are 
countless others.  I'll not debate them with you.  Instead people can 
read your posts and judge for themselves.  It's likely that many 
already have.



--- In AsburyPark@yahoogroups.com, "justifiedright" 
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> Newbie and AsburyCouple,
> 
> By Strawman you two are alleging that I have misstated Mario's 
> position.
> 
> The sure test of that is for Mario to state it to see if it is 
> different than I said.
> 
> You two however, having thrown the allegation at me, are then 
> asserting you know his position.
> 
> So prove yourself right.
> 
> State Mario's position. Compare and contrast to what I said it was 
to 
> show how what I said is different.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> --- In AsburyPark@yahoogroups.com, "asburycouple"  
> wrote:
> >
> > Those kind of "tactics" in his arguments is why for the most part 
> > I've stopped getting into political discussions with Tom on the 
> > board.  It just gets old...
> > 
> > Unfortunate, because stepping past the BS I believe he has much 
to 
> > add...
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > --- In AsburyPark@yahoogroups.com, MarioAPNJ@ wrote:
> > >
> > > Observe below.  The tactic of introducing words never 
> > uttered:   "clam up" 
> > > and "insists."
> > >  
> > > The "Straw Man" technique.
> > >  
> > > Another apple of discord from the Temple of Eris.
> > >  
> > >  
> > >  
> > > In a message dated 11/9/2008 9:41:23 A.M. Eastern Standard 
Time,  
> > > justifiedright@ writes:
> > > 
> > > Hey  Newb,
> > > 
> > > Tell me how you define "stirring the pot" and "discussing an  
> > issue."
> > > 
> > > You are a person with a lot to say.  Don't clam up because  
Mario 
> > > insists you do.
> > > 
> > > 
> > > **AOL Search: Your one stop for directions, recipes 
> and 
> > all other 
> > > Holiday needs. Search Now. 
> > > 
> (http://pr.atwola.com/promoclk/10075x1212792382x1200798498/aol?
> > redir=http://searchblog.aol.com/2008/11/04/happy-holidays-from
> > > -aol-search/?ncid=emlcntussear0001)
> > > 
> > > 
> > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> > >
> >
>





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[AsburyPark] Re: Sexy Ideas

[Gabrielle Obre]

Nice observation, thanks. That is what so frustrating. When we can't
look at our own baggage before we judge others. One of the reasons I
love this board so much is that it is really helping me to practice
taking other perspectives.


--- In AsburyPark@yahoogroups.com, "sharon_b283" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> In today's society, you may be liberal, when it comes to yourself and
> conservative, when it comes to everyone else!  That seemed to be what
> I got from white/black conservatives, who believe in less government,
> but lean on the government when it is them who are hurting!  See
Wall St.!
> 
> --- In AsburyPark@yahoogroups.com, "Gabrielle Obre"
>  wrote:
> >
> > here is another one about the different between liberals and
> > conservatives.  Please please please watch so we can better understand
> > one another in our community.
> > 
> > http://tinyurl.com/5mwc73
> >
>





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[AsburyPark] Re: WoW - TGIO

[New Beetoap]

Someone else posted the characterization of...

---Argument-For-Arguments-Sake---

And needing to be right .. I'm seeing it now...
maybe the reason for your handle 'Justifiedright'

Man I'm getting a real enlightening through the archives.
There are/were some very well informed intellegent people
on this board.

I don't understand the predisposition to discount and
marginalize them. Along with that some real tunnel vision
also.


--- In AsburyPark@yahoogroups.com, "justifiedright" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> Newbie and AsburyCouple,
> 
> By Strawman you two are alleging that I have misstated Mario's 
> position.
> 
> The sure test of that is for Mario to state it to see if it is 
> different than I said.
> 
> You two however, having thrown the allegation at me, are then 
> asserting you know his position.
> 
> So prove yourself right.
> 
> State Mario's position. Compare and contrast to what I said it was to 
> show how what I said is different.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> --- In AsburyPark@yahoogroups.com, "asburycouple"  
> wrote:
> >
> > Those kind of "tactics" in his arguments is why for the most part 
> > I've stopped getting into political discussions with Tom on the 
> > board.  It just gets old...
> > 
> > Unfortunate, because stepping past the BS I believe he has much to 
> > add...
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > --- In AsburyPark@yahoogroups.com, MarioAPNJ@ wrote:
> > >
> > > Observe below.  The tactic of introducing words never 
> > uttered:   "clam up" 
> > > and "insists."
> > >  
> > > The "Straw Man" technique.
> > >  
> > > Another apple of discord from the Temple of Eris.
> > >  
> > >  
> > >  
> > > In a message dated 11/9/2008 9:41:23 A.M. Eastern Standard Time,  
> > > justifiedright@ writes:
> > > 
> > > Hey  Newb,
> > > 
> > > Tell me how you define "stirring the pot" and "discussing an  
> > issue."
> > > 
> > > You are a person with a lot to say.  Don't clam up because  Mario 
> > > insists you do.
> > > 
> > > 
> > > **AOL Search: Your one stop for directions, recipes 
> and 
> > all other 
> > > Holiday needs. Search Now. 
> > > 
> (http://pr.atwola.com/promoclk/10075x1212792382x1200798498/aol?
> > redir=http://searchblog.aol.com/2008/11/04/happy-holidays-from
> > > -aol-search/?ncid=emlcntussear0001)
> > > 
> > > 
> > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> > >
> >
>






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[AsburyPark] Re: Proof Of Media "In the Tank" for Obama

[sharon_b283]

Cheech!
Best Damned Post I've seen all year!

--- In AsburyPark@yahoogroups.com, "asburycheech" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
wrote:
>
> --- In AsburyPark@yahoogroups.com, "justifiedright"
>  wrote:
> >
> > Good grief.  GOOD GRIEF
> > 
> > Working on the campaign!!!  Filing reports with "his version of 
> > reality!"   While drunk
> > 
> > Nope.  Can't beat hope.  Not with media in the tank.
> > 
> > Enjoy the new world order:
> > 
> > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LTOXlo1npmY
> >
> 
>  Good grief indeed! Honest to God, is this the crap that we'll all
> have to put up with until the next election in four years???  I
> thought the man-child haters in this group would have the decency to
> have their heads explode last Tuesday night so we could all give it a
> rest.  No such luck.  
>  I guess we'll all have to grin and bear it until 2012 when "the
> future of the Republican Party", sassy Sarah, will head the ticket.  I
> hope so.  She, like herpes, is the gift that keeps on givin'.  
>  Yes, 2012, when every electoral vote except those of soon to be
> independent Alaska, where they elect convicted felons and idiots, will
> go to President Obama, the first person actually to  be elected in 12
> long years.  You betcha.
> 
>Frank "Get Over It" D'Alessandro
>





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[AsburyPark] Re: Here Is An Asbury Park Discussion!

[sharon_b283]

After reading the memo twice, I gather this letter was sent to local
businesses.  I've considered asking for donations from my group and
still will, since it benefits the community.  What do you get from
this appeal?  Seems the City is just offering a "location" to have
said celebration and get "credit" for it!

--- In AsburyPark@yahoogroups.com, "justifiedright"
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> I've uploaded a new file to the Group.  Find it here:
> 
> http://tinyurl.com/62shsz
> 
> If anyone can't open it, it is City Letterhead sent to businesses 
> about taking part in the City's Kwanzaa celebration, sent from our 
> official "Kwanzaa Celebration Coordinator."
> 
> Love to hear your thoughts on this:
> 
> Is it an impermissible government expenditure for violating the 
> establishment clause?
> 
> 
> Is it a permissible expenditure in furtherance of supporting a 
> cultural holiday?
> 
> 
> Lots of other questions can be presented.
> 
> Would love to get councilman Keady's thoughts on it all.
> 
> I hope for a well reasoned and lively discussion with no 
> personalizing.
>





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[AsburyPark] Re: Here Is An Asbury Park Discussion!

[Gabrielle Obre]

You can only discuss the budget with others willing to discuss it. Did
you respond to my request for some insight on the budget?

sarcasm doesn't really work well in genuine dialogue. And as far as
the more knowledgeable people on the board go redevelopment is not
supposed to be finished at the moment. 

Are you like werner, projecting your own failure to finish projects
onto others? We'll never know, because you need to be anonymous.

--- In AsburyPark@yahoogroups.com, "New Beetoap" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> Wasn't it you that wanted to talk about the budget?
> Am I mistaken?
> 
> Like I said, this seems like an economics issue.
> AP is broke$$$ from what I hear. Shouldn't they cut
> all these expenses and encourage the business community
> to take up the cause?
> 
> That takes the town being selective of certain
> religious/cultural support out of the picture.
> 
> Last report was that you are $13 million in the hole
> from non-redevelopment. OOps there's that timetable again.
> 
> 
> --- In AsburyPark@yahoogroups.com, "Gabrielle Obre" 
wrote:
> >
> > I think its pretty reasonable to have a discussion on this. If people
> > gripe about Columbus day its reasonable to talk about this. I had no
> > idea it was an issue until recently someone gleefully told me they
> > were supporting it particularly because it always gets people up in
> > arms. See how we behave?
> > 
> > It seems like a cultural event, not a religious one. Would it make
> > sense to consider how an event reflects the culture of the town that
> > celebrates it?
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > --- In AsburyPark@yahoogroups.com, MarioAPNJ@ wrote:
> > >
> > > In a message dated 11/8/2008 9:02:56 P.M. Eastern Standard Time,  
> > > justifiedright@ writes:
> > > 
> > > Well  Mario, not everyone was here in years past.  I would like to 
> > > hear  from new people about what they think.
> > >  
> > > ==
> > >  
> > > In 2008, there were 44 new members to this group.  Only 6 of
them have  
> > > become active participants: 4 only occasionally,  and 5 are
> > decidedly  against 
> > > competitive "argument for the sake of  argument."
> > > **AOL Search: Your one stop for directions, recipes and
> > all other 
> > > Holiday needs. Search Now. 
> > >
> > (http://pr.atwola.com/promoclk/10075x1212792382x1200798498/aol?
> redir=http://searchblog.aol.com/2008/11/04/happy-holidays-from
> > > -aol-search/?ncid=emlcntussear0001)
> > > 
> > > 
> > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> > >
> >
>





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[AsburyPark] Re: Official!

[sharon_b283]

Good for you!  Statistics weigh out what I stated!  No, I'm NOT a
Human Resources person, but I hired and fired at will employees, none
of which were white! Just WHO the hell are you?

--- In AsburyPark@yahoogroups.com, Rock Musician <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> Are you a human resources employee of any large company?  My guess
is you not because they are actually trying to lobby for the change.
It is not fair to any person who is Qualified for a position, to lose
it to s stat hire to fill a quota. It is not fair to a company to have
to waste money to fill shoes. It is not fair to America and its
Economy to have this excess $ waste $. It should be changed back to
Qualifications to fill a position. I am not racist in this I actually
know 23 people that are the head of Human resources in 23 different
companies that say this. For the record the are not Caucasian.   
 
> From: sharon_b283 <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: AsburyPark@yahoogroups.com
> Sent: Friday, November 7, 2008 8:40:31 AM
> Subject: [AsburyPark] Re: Official!
> 
> 
> Guess who benefitted from Affirmative Action? White women and Asians!
> Blacks can barely get a promotion or job, because these 2 groups ride
> on our backs, oh and also West Indians that "look" Black but when tell
> you in a New York minute, that THEY have a country, be it Haiti,
> Jamaica or Trinidad, by way of Brooklyn!
> 





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[AsburyPark] Re: WoW - TGIO

[justifiedright]

Newbie and AsburyCouple,

By Strawman you two are alleging that I have misstated Mario's 
position.

The sure test of that is for Mario to state it to see if it is 
different than I said.

You two however, having thrown the allegation at me, are then 
asserting you know his position.

So prove yourself right.

State Mario's position. Compare and contrast to what I said it was to 
show how what I said is different.




--- In AsburyPark@yahoogroups.com, "asburycouple" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> 
wrote:
>
> Those kind of "tactics" in his arguments is why for the most part 
> I've stopped getting into political discussions with Tom on the 
> board.  It just gets old...
> 
> Unfortunate, because stepping past the BS I believe he has much to 
> add...
> 
> 
> 
> --- In AsburyPark@yahoogroups.com, MarioAPNJ@ wrote:
> >
> > Observe below.  The tactic of introducing words never 
> uttered:   "clam up" 
> > and "insists."
> >  
> > The "Straw Man" technique.
> >  
> > Another apple of discord from the Temple of Eris.
> >  
> >  
> >  
> > In a message dated 11/9/2008 9:41:23 A.M. Eastern Standard Time,  
> > justifiedright@ writes:
> > 
> > Hey  Newb,
> > 
> > Tell me how you define "stirring the pot" and "discussing an  
> issue."
> > 
> > You are a person with a lot to say.  Don't clam up because  Mario 
> > insists you do.
> > 
> > 
> > **AOL Search: Your one stop for directions, recipes 
and 
> all other 
> > Holiday needs. Search Now. 
> > 
(http://pr.atwola.com/promoclk/10075x1212792382x1200798498/aol?
> redir=http://searchblog.aol.com/2008/11/04/happy-holidays-from
> > -aol-search/?ncid=emlcntussear0001)
> > 
> > 
> > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> >
>





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[AsburyPark] Re: Sexy Ideas

[sharon_b283]

In today's society, you may be liberal, when it comes to yourself and
conservative, when it comes to everyone else!  That seemed to be what
I got from white/black conservatives, who believe in less government,
but lean on the government when it is them who are hurting!  See Wall St.!

--- In AsburyPark@yahoogroups.com, "Gabrielle Obre"
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> here is another one about the different between liberals and
> conservatives.  Please please please watch so we can better understand
> one another in our community.
> 
> http://tinyurl.com/5mwc73
>





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[AsburyPark] Re: Sexy Ideas

[sharon_b283]

"Eat More, Weigh Less", comes to mind.

--- In AsburyPark@yahoogroups.com, "Gabrielle Obre"
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> I am holding onto my fantasy of having an idea festival in AP. In the
> meantime, I wanted to share a good one with you. Dean Ornish is an MD
> who has written books on more natural ways to heal. This talk is
> wonderful. He discusses among many things, the importance of community. 
> Its about 17 minutes long. Its good for you. And he talks about sex.
> 
> 
> http://tinyurl.com/5e6mdp
>





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[AsburyPark] Re: On the Pulse of Morning

[sharon_b283]

I have a copy of the poem in my files, that I read at a leadership
Conference, when I was the State USO Chairman.  The National President
of the American Legion Auxiliary, was our honored guest and after I
had made my presentation on the 21 Counties and their Cookie
donations, cash donations and the # of pounds donated to the USO at
Philadelphia Airport and Ft. Dix, I read the poem.  There wasn't a dry
eye in the audience, when I looked up to finish.  The Director of the
USO in Philly asked if she could use it, too and I sent her a copy,
via email.  That was in 2000!  

I took 3 courses in College English.  2 were required.  The courses
all speak of plaigerism and how it is abused, but a good speaker will
give credit to the author, if they're honest.  Just as some noted
American Historians were recently "outed" for stealing another's work
and not acknowleging them, "A Band of Brothers", "Roots" and a couple
more, I can't remember at the moment, leave a bad taste in my mouth,
thus the attitude, I've taken, when someone knowingly "steals" the
work of another and fails to credit the work of another.

http://www.jonwiener.com/?page_id=88

--- In AsburyPark@yahoogroups.com, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
>
> In a message dated 11/7/2008 7:55:56 P.M. Eastern Standard Time,  
> [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
> 
> There's a poem that  she reads all the time, written by an
> anonymous person.  She's read it  so many times, her audiences think
> she wrote it.  How I wish the  person who wrote it would acknowledge
> their work.  I see lots of  posters attributing parts of the poem to
> her and I hate her for taking  credit for anothers' work.
>  
> 
>  
> From  http://www.mayaangelou.com/Contact.html
>  
> "Please be aware that Dr. Maya Angelou has absolutely no affiliation
with  
> the following poems circulating the internet; Clothes, I Am A 
Christian and A 
> Woman Should Have . "
>  
> That disclaimer and the actual author's comments ---  Thanks to 
Snopes:   
> http://www.snopes.com/language/literary/awoman.asp
> **AOL Search: Your one stop for directions, recipes and
all other 
> Holiday needs. Search Now. 
>
(http://pr.atwola.com/promoclk/10075x1212792382x1200798498/aol?redir=http://searchblog.aol.com/2008/11/04/happy-holidays-from
> -aol-search/?ncid=emlcntussear0001)
> 
> 
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>





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[AsburyPark] Re: WoW - TGIO

[asburycouple]

Those kind of "tactics" in his arguments is why for the most part 
I've stopped getting into political discussions with Tom on the 
board.  It just gets old...

Unfortunate, because stepping past the BS I believe he has much to 
add...



--- In AsburyPark@yahoogroups.com, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
>
> Observe below.  The tactic of introducing words never 
uttered:   "clam up" 
> and "insists."
>  
> The "Straw Man" technique.
>  
> Another apple of discord from the Temple of Eris.
>  
>  
>  
> In a message dated 11/9/2008 9:41:23 A.M. Eastern Standard Time,  
> [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
> 
> Hey  Newb,
> 
> Tell me how you define "stirring the pot" and "discussing an  
issue."
> 
> You are a person with a lot to say.  Don't clam up because  Mario 
> insists you do.
> 
> 
> **AOL Search: Your one stop for directions, recipes and 
all other 
> Holiday needs. Search Now. 
> (http://pr.atwola.com/promoclk/10075x1212792382x1200798498/aol?
redir=http://searchblog.aol.com/2008/11/04/happy-holidays-from
> -aol-search/?ncid=emlcntussear0001)
> 
> 
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>





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[AsburyPark] Re: Obama to help municipalities

[sharon_b283]

The same place Bush got the 750 Billion to bail out Wall St, that's
where!  You know, "something" for the "little people", US!


--- In AsburyPark@yahoogroups.com, "justifiedright"
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> --- In AsburyPark@yahoogroups.com, "dfsavgny"  wrote:
> >
> > What a guy. One of the primary short-term objectives announced in his
> > press conference is to assist local governments and municipalities 
> > that are stretched so they do not have to RAISE TAXES.
> >
> 
> 
> The municipalities won't have to raise taxes.  So where does the money 
> to send to them come from?
> 
> Obama's magical Hope machine?
>





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[AsburyPark] Re: Here Is An Asbury Park Discussion!

[New Beetoap]

Holy Smokes Batman.

There it is... the Straw-Man...
Right after I find the definition..
How about that for timing ?

 --- In AsburyPark@yahoogroups.com, "justifiedright" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> Told everyone Mario won't address the issue.
> 
> He's against Columbus Day, but for Kwanzaa, but against Christmas.
> 
> Apparantly so is Councilman Keady.
> 
> No evenly applied standard - just make value judgements on whole 
> groups of people.
> 
> Bye Bye diversity - only certain groups are welcomed in Asbury Park.
> 






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[AsburyPark] Re: Here Is An Asbury Park Discussion!

[New Beetoap]

I never really knew what the term "Straw-Man" meant.
This is great and very informative :

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Straw_man

Carefully presenting and refuting a weakened form of an opponent's argument is 
not 
always itself a fallacy. It can refocus the scope of an argument or be a 
legitimate step of 
a proof by exhaustion. In contrast the straw man fallacy occurs in the 
following pattern:
1. Person A has position X.
2. Person B ignores X and instead presents position Y.
Y is a distorted version of X and can be set up in several ways, including:
Presenting a misrepresentation of the opponent's position and then refuting it, 
thus 
giving the appearance that the opponent's actual position has been refuted.[1]
Quoting an opponent's words out of context — i.e., choosing quotations that are 
not 
representative of the opponent's actual intentions (see contextomy and quote 
mining).[2]
Presenting someone who defends a position poorly as the defender and then 
refuting 
that person's arguments, thus giving the appearance that every upholder of that 
position, 
and thus the position itself, has been defeated.[1]
Inventing a fictitious persona with actions or beliefs that are criticized, 
such that the 
person represents a group of whom the speaker is critical.
Oversimplifying an opponent's argument, then attacking the simplified version.
3. Person B attacks position Y.
4. Person B draws a conclusion that X is false/incorrect/flawed.
This sort of "reasoning" is fallacious because attacking a distorted version of 
a position 
simply does not constitute an attack on the position itself.


--- In AsburyPark@yahoogroups.com, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
>
> In a message dated 11/9/2008 9:49:42 A.M. Eastern Standard Time,  
> [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
> 
> It is  Mario who refuses to take a postion on Kwanzaa as he bashed 
> Columbus Day,  as he as no fear of looking anti-America but is deathly 
> fearful of looking  anti-African.
>  
> Personalizing.
>  
> Nesting issues, like the Russian dolls.
>  
> Inflaming: "anti-America"
>  
> Pseudo-analyzing my motives: "fearful of looking anti-African.
>  
> Straw Man falsifying ad infinitum
>  
> Sun's up and shining, so enough for now.
>  
> But Pete has graciously extended the window on politics until Wednesday, so  
> if the divisive posts continue, I'll have three more days to deconstruct and  
> shed some light.
>  
> ;-)
> .
>  
>  
>  
>  
> **AOL Search: Your one stop for directions, recipes and all other 
> Holiday needs. Search Now. 
> (http://pr.atwola.com/promoclk/10075x1212792382x1200798498/aol?
redir=http://searchblog.aol.com/2008/11/04/happy-holidays-from
> -aol-search/?ncid=emlcntussear0001)
> 
> 
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>






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[AsburyPark] Re: Here Is An Asbury Park Discussion!

[justifiedright]

Told everyone Mario won't address the issue.

He's against Columbus Day, but for Kwanzaa, but against Christmas.

Apparantly so is Councilman Keady.

No evenly applied standard - just make value judgements on whole 
groups of people.

Bye Bye diversity - only certain groups are welcomed in Asbury Park.




--- In AsburyPark@yahoogroups.com, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
>
> In a message dated 11/9/2008 9:49:42 A.M. Eastern Standard Time,  
> [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
> 
> It is  Mario who refuses to take a postion on Kwanzaa as he bashed 
> Columbus Day,  as he as no fear of looking anti-America but is 
deathly 
> fearful of looking  anti-African.
>  
> Personalizing.
>  
> Nesting issues, like the Russian dolls.
>  
> Inflaming: "anti-America"
>  
> Pseudo-analyzing my motives: "fearful of looking anti-African.
>  
> Straw Man falsifying ad infinitum
>  
> Sun's up and shining, so enough for now.
>  
> But Pete has graciously extended the window on politics until 
Wednesday, so  
> if the divisive posts continue, I'll have three more days to 
deconstruct and  
> shed some light.
>  
> ;-)
> .
>  
>  
>  
>  
> **AOL Search: Your one stop for directions, recipes and 
all other 
> Holiday needs. Search Now. 
> (http://pr.atwola.com/promoclk/10075x1212792382x1200798498/aol?
redir=http://searchblog.aol.com/2008/11/04/happy-holidays-from
> -aol-search/?ncid=emlcntussear0001)
> 
> 
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>





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Re: [AsburyPark] Re: Here Is An Asbury Park Discussion!

[MarioAPNJ]

In a message dated 11/9/2008 9:49:42 A.M. Eastern Standard Time,  
[EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:

It is  Mario who refuses to take a postion on Kwanzaa as he bashed 
Columbus Day,  as he as no fear of looking anti-America but is deathly 
fearful of looking  anti-African.
 
Personalizing.
 
Nesting issues, like the Russian dolls.
 
Inflaming: "anti-America"
 
Pseudo-analyzing my motives: "fearful of looking anti-African.
 
Straw Man falsifying ad infinitum
 
Sun's up and shining, so enough for now.
 
But Pete has graciously extended the window on politics until Wednesday, so  
if the divisive posts continue, I'll have three more days to deconstruct and  
shed some light.
 
;-)
.
 
 
 
 
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[AsburyPark] Re: Here Is An Asbury Park Discussion!

[New Beetoap]

Wasn't it you that wanted to talk about the budget?
Am I mistaken?

Like I said, this seems like an economics issue.
AP is broke$$$ from what I hear. Shouldn't they cut
all these expenses and encourage the business community
to take up the cause?

That takes the town being selective of certain
religious/cultural support out of the picture.

Last report was that you are $13 million in the hole
from non-redevelopment. OOps there's that timetable again.


--- In AsburyPark@yahoogroups.com, "Gabrielle Obre" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> I think its pretty reasonable to have a discussion on this. If people
> gripe about Columbus day its reasonable to talk about this. I had no
> idea it was an issue until recently someone gleefully told me they
> were supporting it particularly because it always gets people up in
> arms. See how we behave?
> 
> It seems like a cultural event, not a religious one. Would it make
> sense to consider how an event reflects the culture of the town that
> celebrates it?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> --- In AsburyPark@yahoogroups.com, MarioAPNJ@ wrote:
> >
> > In a message dated 11/8/2008 9:02:56 P.M. Eastern Standard Time,  
> > justifiedright@ writes:
> > 
> > Well  Mario, not everyone was here in years past.  I would like to 
> > hear  from new people about what they think.
> >  
> > ==
> >  
> > In 2008, there were 44 new members to this group.  Only 6 of them have  
> > become active participants: 4 only occasionally,  and 5 are
> decidedly  against 
> > competitive "argument for the sake of  argument."
> > **AOL Search: Your one stop for directions, recipes and
> all other 
> > Holiday needs. Search Now. 
> >
> (http://pr.atwola.com/promoclk/10075x1212792382x1200798498/aol?
redir=http://searchblog.aol.com/2008/11/04/happy-holidays-from
> > -aol-search/?ncid=emlcntussear0001)
> > 
> > 
> > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> >
>






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[AsburyPark] Re: Here Is An Asbury Park Discussion!

[Gabrielle Obre]

I think its pretty reasonable to have a discussion on this. If people
gripe about Columbus day its reasonable to talk about this. I had no
idea it was an issue until recently someone gleefully told me they
were supporting it particularly because it always gets people up in
arms. See how we behave?

It seems like a cultural event, not a religious one. Would it make
sense to consider how an event reflects the culture of the town that
celebrates it?




--- In AsburyPark@yahoogroups.com, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
>
> In a message dated 11/8/2008 9:02:56 P.M. Eastern Standard Time,  
> [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
> 
> Well  Mario, not everyone was here in years past.  I would like to 
> hear  from new people about what they think.
>  
> ==
>  
> In 2008, there were 44 new members to this group.  Only 6 of them have  
> become active participants: 4 only occasionally,  and 5 are
decidedly  against 
> competitive "argument for the sake of  argument."
> **AOL Search: Your one stop for directions, recipes and
all other 
> Holiday needs. Search Now. 
>
(http://pr.atwola.com/promoclk/10075x1212792382x1200798498/aol?redir=http://searchblog.aol.com/2008/11/04/happy-holidays-from
> -aol-search/?ncid=emlcntussear0001)
> 
> 
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>





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[AsburyPark] Re: Here Is An Asbury Park Discussion!

[justifiedright]

--- In AsburyPark@yahoogroups.com, "Michael W. Brim" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> 
wrote:
>
> So if one is against using public funds for the Kwanzaa celebration,
> shouldn't we also think about the public money spent on 4th of July 
and the
> annual Holiday Lights? And Columbus Day as pointed out below.
> 
>  
> 
> Those two mean a lot to the community, as Kwanzaa does!


Michael Brim you and I are then in exact agreement. 

The archives here show I support the Kwanzaa celebration, as I 
support the other cultural celebrations.

It is Mario who refuses to take a postion on Kwanzaa as he bashed 
Columbus Day, as he as no fear of looking anti-America but is deathly 
fearful of looking anti-African.

For the same reason, Keady will bash Columbus Day and rage on (as he 
did last month again) about the use of public funds for a cultural 
holiday (Columbus Day) but stays silent on Kwanzaa.  

Yet Keady supports completely the cultural insult to many that comes 
from the Chamber of Commerce refusing to use the word Christmas at 
all, in any advertisement or event.

Since you weighed in, Michael, where are you on the Columbus 
Celebration and the Chamber's refusal to use the word "Christmas?"







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Re: [AsburyPark] Re: WoW - TGIO

[MarioAPNJ]

Observe below.  The tactic of introducing words never uttered:   "clam up" 
and "insists."
 
The "Straw Man" technique.
 
Another apple of discord from the Temple of Eris.
 
 
 
In a message dated 11/9/2008 9:41:23 A.M. Eastern Standard Time,  
[EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:

Hey  Newb,

Tell me how you define "stirring the pot" and "discussing an  issue."

You are a person with a lot to say.  Don't clam up because  Mario 
insists you do.


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[AsburyPark] Re: WoW - TGIO

[justifiedright]

Hey Newb,

Tell me how you define "stirring the pot" and "discussing an issue."

You are a person with a lot to say.  Don't clam up because Mario 
insists you do.

Give us your thoughts.  They are important.

We have a councilman who each year vigorously opposes Asbury Park's 
55 year old Columbus Day celebration.  He says the city should not 
spend money on a purely cultural event.

On the Kwanzaa cultural event, for which the city spends resources 
and hires an official "Kwanzaa Celebration Coordinator" he is silent.

That's a hefty Politcal issue.  Certainly worthy of AP discussion.

Add to that the same councilmember supports the Chamber of Commerce 
decision to wipe the word "Christmas" from their entire lexicon.

That's a very related issue.

Stir the pot?

"You betcha!"

Or, we can go back to dicussing whether the lights on Kingsley street 
are bright enough.




--- In AsburyPark@yahoogroups.com, "New Beetoap" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> 
wrote:
>
> OOps sorry I just responded, I think its an economic issue.
> If it goes back to politics I'm OUT.
> 
> I do see the pattern of wanting to stir the pot just for the h**ll 
of it.
> The archives are an interesting read.
> 
> 
> --- In AsburyPark@yahoogroups.com, MarioAPNJ@ wrote:
> >
> > Don't worry about it, Newbee.  It's NOT really about AP.  It's  
about culture 
> > wars being imposed on Asbury Park from the outside: Kwanzaa vs.  
Columbus 
> > Day, tangents to Merry Christmas vs. Happy Holidays, and 
inflammatory  remarks 
> > about an elected official here in town.
> >  
> > The majority of us who live here have long ago dismissed all of 
the above;  
> > they're not serious issues for this town; they're just divisive.
> >
>





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Re: [AsburyPark] Re: WoW - TGIO

[MarioAPNJ]

In a message dated 11/9/2008 9:36:19 A.M. Eastern Standard Time,  
[EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:

He  completely Obama of you!
=
 
Assuming you meant "How completely Obama,"
 
Thank you.
 
I accept the compliment "with humility."
 
;-)
 
 
 
 
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RE: [AsburyPark] Re: Here Is An Asbury Park Discussion!

[Michael W. Brim]

So if one is against using public funds for the Kwanzaa celebration,
shouldn't we also think about the public money spent on 4th of July and the
annual Holiday Lights? And Columbus Day as pointed out below.

 

Those two mean a lot to the community, as Kwanzaa does!

 

From: AsburyPark@yahoogroups.com [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Sunday, November 09, 2008 7:00 AM
To: AsburyPark@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [AsburyPark] Re: Here Is An Asbury Park Discussion!

 

Another Apple of Discord. Hail, Eris!


In a message dated 11/8/2008 9:02:56 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, 
[EMAIL PROTECTED]   writes:

Well Mario, not everyone was here in years past. I would like to 
hear from new people about what they think.

Also, Councilman Keady did again just last month, rail against the 
expenditure of public funds for Columbus Day, a cultural celebration.

I don't know the answer of whether he objects to the public 
expenditure of money for the Kwanzaa cultural celebration.

Seems a fair question to ask of a public official.

If you are out there Councilman Keady, I hope you will make a 
clarifying statement.

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[AsburyPark] Re: WoW - TGIO

[Gabrielle Obre]

Tommy is the one who wanted proof that it was meant to be done by now.
I don't care that much about timelines. I am simply completely happy
with the progress that has been made on the boardwalk. If there is
some grievous malfeasance going on, bring it to light. But if you say
that it was supposed to be done by now (I have NO idea and defer to
Tommy on this) you should prove it.

I don't know what else to say to you newbee. I love my life here. I
love the community, the music the bars the people. I love the
boardwalk, convention hall. i love the food, the homeless people, the
shady characters. I am sorry it doesn't bring you as much pleasure.


--- In AsburyPark@yahoogroups.com, "New Beetoap" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> Well thank you,
> A much nicer and civil attitude than your previous notes to me.
> Ok maybe insider/outsider is a bad way to put it.
> I'm thinking more along the lines of those who are in or around AP
> daily/weekly versus those who are not in the area.
> 
> I tried to have a discussion with you before about how close someone's
> involvement is effects their perceptions. You mentioned wanting proof
> about the timeline. Before that you said you don't care about timelines.
> 
> See what I mean - I know about it because thats what was reported and
> I know about it. You don't care about it or know about it, That doesn't
> make my surprise that things are not finished invalid.
> 
> 
> --- In AsburyPark@yahoogroups.com, "Gabrielle Obre" 
wrote:
> >
> > Temptation to channel Hemeon is greatsince he appears to be off
> > figuring a way to keep his stuff from being our stuff.  Were I him
> > this post would only be...
> > 
> > SMACKDOWN!
> > 
> > BTW newbie, i don't consider you an outsider. ap isn't a country club.
> > One of the most beautiful things about it is its diversity. It has to
> > be one of the most inclusive places in the state. One of the main
> > reasons I moved here. I hope it stays that way.
> > 
> > if you were referring to some sort of political/money power inside and
> > outside, i doubt those types of insiders post here very often other
> > than to announce something. in that regard i am as much an "outsider"
> > as you. which i find a delightful way to live. thats where the real
> > juice is.
> > 
> > whenever i have a delightful day in AP I think "I wish Newbie were
here!" 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > --- In AsburyPark@yahoogroups.com, "justifiedright"
> >  wrote:
> > >
> > > Hey Newb,
> > > 
> > > Right in the middle today I put up a topic that was 100% about AP.
> > > 
> > > You had nothing to say about it.
> > > 
> > > Yet you did respond the national political stuff.
> > > 
> > > What does that tell you?
> > > 
> > > 
> > > 
> > > --- In AsburyPark@yahoogroups.com, "New Beetoap"  
> > > wrote:
> > > >
> > > > But there is a group for that from what I understand.
> > > > 
> > > > Why is that crap still posted here when people have asked for it 
> > > to stop. Even the 
> > > > moderator who seems to have washed has hands of the whole group 
> > > started moderating 
> > > > in the past because there was no self control.
> > > > 
> > > > It just shows a complete lack of courtesy and self control by 
> > > those involved. I for one 
> > > > would like to talk and hear about AP things. If I want to hear 
> > > about politics I go to a 
> > > > politics board.
> > > > 
> > > > --- In AsburyPark@yahoogroups.com, "justifiedright" 
> > >  wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > Sure Newbie, the personalizing in the political discussion was 
> > > no fun 
> > > > > to read.  
> > > > > 
> > > > > You will find that behavior on the board even when
discussing AP 
> > > > > matters.  Unless you are willing to point out the personalizing 
> > > when 
> > > > > someone does it, you are going to have to get used to it.
> > > > > 
> > > > > I suggest you simply post the word "personalizing" when someone 
> > > does 
> > > > > it so perhaps they get the hint to stop.
> > > > > 
> > > > > That being said, its been an Asbury Park problem that the City 
> > > > > operates in a vaccum with no regard to politics and events 
> > > outside 
> > > > > its borders which affect the City, particularly on the County 
> > > and 
> > > > > State level.
> > > > > 
> > > > > Asbury's failure to react properly to the building of the 
> > > Parkway, 
> > > > > air conditioned cars, the desire of Ocean Township to have its 
> > > own 
> > > > > High School, the closing of Marlboro Hospital and the rise of 
> > > the 
> > > > > Malls (to name a few) are all examples of AP keeping its
head in 
> > > the 
> > > > > sand about events outside the City that greatly affected it.
> > > > > 
> > > > > Talking about the national election was certainly important to 
> > > AP, as 
> > > > > important as when we talk of national financial trends.
> > > > > 
> > > > > 
> > > > > 
> > > > > 
> > > > > --- In AsburyPark@yahoogroups.com, "New Beetoap"  
> > > > > wrote:
> > > > > >
> > > > > > 
> > > > > > Thank God Its Over
> > > >

Re: [AsburyPark] Re: Here Is An Asbury Park Discussion!

[MarioAPNJ]

In a message dated 11/8/2008 9:02:56 P.M. Eastern Standard Time,  
[EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:

Well  Mario, not everyone was here in years past.  I would like to 
hear  from new people about what they think.
 
==
 
In 2008, there were 44 new members to this group.  Only 6 of them have  
become active participants: 4 only occasionally,  and 5 are decidedly  against 
competitive "argument for the sake of  argument."
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[AsburyPark] Re: WoW - TGIO

[justifiedright]

--- In AsburyPark@yahoogroups.com, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
>
> It's for Asbury Park residents to decide.  

And for we on this board to discuss this important Asbury Park issue.


>Apparently the majority  >here 
> never considered Kwanzaa to be "infused with religion"; we 
>acknowledge it  as a 
> cultural celebration.

The founder of Kwanzaa does; he's waffled back and forth on the 
religious aspect of it.

Let's not bore everyone where you link quotes where he said it wasn't 
and I link quotes where he said it was.

The issue is a natural lead in to how the Asbury Park Chamber of 
Commerce bills its December celebrations as 'Winter Festival" despite 
the presence of decorated trees, wrapped presents, shining stars and 
Santa Claus.

The debate is religiously infused.

> My position was in favor of consistency, no matter how you want to 
>twist my  
> words back in 2006-2007: this city should sponsor either all 
>cultural  
> celebrations or none.

Pick one then - should they fund the cultural celebrations or not.


> If Councilman Keady decides to speak for himself, his position 
>should be  
> directed to his Asbury Park residents, his constituency; not to 
>culture  warriors 
> armed with chaff from the blogorrhea.  In the past, he has wisely  
>avoided 
> that bait.

Personalizing.

The Councilman should make his position on the City's Kwanzaa 
celebration with as mush heft as he used to vigorously oppose the 
Columbus Celebration.

> And this from someone who, like you, who did not support his 
>candidacy in  
> the last election.

So if I did not support him and he won, I should no longer be allowed 
to speak?

He completely Obama of you!




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Re: [AsburyPark] Re: WoW - TGIO

[MarioAPNJ]

It's for Asbury Park residents to decide.  Apparently the majority  here 
never considered Kwanzaa to be "infused with religion"; we acknowledge it  as a 
cultural celebration.
 
My position was in favor of consistency, no matter how you want to twist my  
words back in 2006-2007: this city should sponsor either all cultural  
celebrations or none.
 
If Councilman Keady decides to speak for himself, his position should be  
directed to his Asbury Park residents, his constituency; not to culture  
warriors 
armed with chaff from the blogorrhea.  In the past, he has wisely  avoided 
that bait.
 
And this from someone who, like you, who did not support his candidacy in  
the last election.  Inconsistent?  No, just fair minded.
 
==.
 
In a message dated 11/9/2008 8:34:43 A.M. Eastern Standard Time,  
[EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
 
Make up  your own mind, Newb, as should anyone else.

We are talking about the  public expenditure of tax dollars by the 
Asbury Park City council, infused  with religion an culture.

Mario does not want it discussed because when  it gets discussed, it 
shows an inconsistency in his postion.

The  same may or may not be true for Councilman Keady, but I'll let 
him speak  for himself.

My guess is he will not respond, or if he does, not  fully.


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[AsburyPark] Re: WoW - TGIO

[New Beetoap]

OOps sorry I just responded, I think its an economic issue.
If it goes back to politics I'm OUT.

I do see the pattern of wanting to stir the pot just for the h**ll of it.
The archives are an interesting read.


--- In AsburyPark@yahoogroups.com, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
>
> Don't worry about it, Newbee.  It's NOT really about AP.  It's  about culture 
> wars being imposed on Asbury Park from the outside: Kwanzaa vs.  Columbus 
> Day, tangents to Merry Christmas vs. Happy Holidays, and inflammatory  
> remarks 
> about an elected official here in town.
>  
> The majority of us who live here have long ago dismissed all of the above;  
> they're not serious issues for this town; they're just divisive.
>  






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[AsburyPark] Re: WoW - TGIO

[New Beetoap]

I don't know enough about what your asking to even comment.
But it sounds like it would fit into the budget talk that Gabbi wanted
to have.

>From what I have gathered AP is in deep sh*t financially.
Someone posted about the role of the chamber of commerce and the
downtown.

Seems to me that cutting expenses and letting non government
folks do the marketing would make sense. In my town there is a very
active downtown association that organizes events.


--- In AsburyPark@yahoogroups.com, "justifiedright" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> This one Newb:
> 
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/AsburyPark/message/42264
> 
> Even after posting that uniquely Asbury Park topic, people came on 
> to complain about the national politics posting.
>





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[AsburyPark] Re: WoW - TGIO - Response to New bee

[New Beetoap]

I consider this from you, drivel...

> > You complain and make judgements about timelines. Don't knock
> > someone who is actually doing something when you have the
>> audacity to be lazy enough to judge a whole community by what is
>> typed on a board by the same 15 people.

So you know about the Memorial Day promise also - Thats great.
Nice that you don't mind it didn't happen, are you an "insider" (there)?
I was very disappointed because that's what I came to see because
that's what was publicized. You can understand that - right?

I really think manipulating the media and lying is a cheap shot
that only hurts AP in the long run. Surprising that you put up with
it and condone it.

--- In AsburyPark@yahoogroups.com, "dsher4" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> first of all, i'd like an example of my drivel?
> 
> second of all, i was referring to your judgement of an entire town by 
> what is posted by 15 people on an internet message board.  
> 
> Third, i have been an advocate of not having political discussions on 
> this board.
> 
> Fourth, and this one is important - Memorial day for completion was 
> never a possibility.  We all knew that and discussed it when that was 
> announced during the winter.  It was physically impossible to 
> complete in that timeframe.  It was done to create a buzz about the 
> town to outsiders and to force the hand of the local government to 
> act in a business like fashion and not a political fashion (I'm not 
> sure if you know about the 100k dollars Madison marquette had in 
> escrow to expedite meetings, decisions, approvals etc.. that the town 
> would have to deal with due to overtime to town employees).  It was 
> probably also done so that everyone was aware of how fast the 
> developers wanted to move and they wouldn't tolerate "the kickbacks" 
> and under the table payments that have gone on in this town and 
> others in Jersey for generations. 
> 
> I was not lied to by Madison Marquette, they spent a boatload of 
> money this summer to make things better.  I am not going to be a 
> maniac over a date that was meant to spark enthusiasm and get the 
> wheels in motion. 
> 
> We also live in a town that has drugs and gangs, so much for your 
> fantasyland.  We came here to hopefully be a part of something that 
> improves.  Why don't you do the same or go spread your cheer in 
> another town.
>  
> 
> --- In AsburyPark@yahoogroups.com, "New Beetoap"  
> wrote:
> >
> > What is wrong with you ? I did go downtown, I did shop, I did enjoy 
> the boards and 
> > beach. I had a good time, I told you (all) that previously.
> > 
> > None of that good experience has anything to do with my 
> observations that AP just did 
> > not live up to advertised expectations. Is that not clear??
> > 
> > The media reported that the beach would be finished by Memorial 
> day - That was what 
> > the developer himself said. I didn't make the promise. I asume from 
> your past posts that 
> > you are a local. Doesn't it concern you that you are being lied to? 
> Doesn't it concern you 
> > that visitors come and go somewhat surprised and disappointed with 
> the lack of 
> > completion ?
> > 
> > What is wrong with you that you write such unrelated and 
> nonsensical drivel? The 
> > developer made promises, the media and town made promises, I know 
> what i hear, see 
> > and read. Seems that you (all) live in a fantasy land where nothing 
> can be amiss.
> > 
> > And, yes this board is a reflection of the people is town. I bet 
> most of the regulars who 
> > post are closely related to AP happenings. Too close to the fire I 
> guess to be open 
> > minded to outsiders observations.
> > 
> > 
> > --- In AsburyPark@yahoogroups.com, "dsher4"  wrote:
> > >
> > > Hey New Bee,  YOU WAKE UP
> > > 
> > > If you think that you can judge the character of a place or its 
> > > people by what is typed on a board, you are dillusional.  Go hang 
> > > out downtown and get a bite to eat at some of the nice 
> restaurants 
> > > or shop in the eclectic stores on Cookman.  
> > > 
> > > Enjoy the beautiful beach and boardwalk.  
> > > 
> > > Revel in the diversity of people and get to know them face to 
> face.  
> > > Until you do i would rather you reserve judgement.  
> > > 
> > > You complain and make judgements about timelines.  Don't knock 
> > > someone who is actually doing something when you have the 
> audacity 
> > > to be lazy enough to judge a whole community by what is typed on 
> a 
> > > board by the same 15 people.  
> > > 
> > > Dan S.  
> > > 
> > > --- In AsburyPark@yahoogroups.com, "New Beetoap"  
> > > wrote:
> > > >
> > > > 
> > > > Thank God Its Over
> > > > 
> > > > What a huge huge bad impression the posts on this board have 
> made.
> > > > I cant believe the crap that came from some of you. Completely 
> > > changed
> > > > my impression of the caliber of people in AP. No wonder AP has 
> been
> > > > sooo messed up for sooo long.
> > > > 
> > > > OK, so I'm a outsi

[AsburyPark] Re: WoW - TGIO

[justifiedright]

Make up your own mind, Newb, as should anyone else.

We are talking about the public expenditure of tax dollars by the 
Asbury Park City council, infused with religion an culture.

Mario does not want it discussed because when it gets discussed, it 
shows an inconsistency in his postion.

The same may or may not be true for Councilman Keady, but I'll let 
him speak for himself.

My guess is he will not respond, or if he does, not fully.



--- In AsburyPark@yahoogroups.com, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
>
> Don't worry about it, Newbee.  It's NOT really about AP.  It's  
about culture 
> wars being imposed on Asbury Park from the outside: Kwanzaa vs.  
Columbus 
> Day, tangents to Merry Christmas vs. Happy Holidays, and 
inflammatory  remarks 
> about an elected official here in town.
>  
> The majority of us who live here have long ago dismissed all of 
the above;  
> they're not serious issues for this town; they're just divisive.
>  
>  
> ==
>  
>  
> In a message dated 11/9/2008 8:10:42 A.M. Eastern Standard Time,  
> [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
> 
> What  post are you talking about?
> Middle of the day?
> A message number or some  other reference would help.
> I have never been in a political  discussion.
> 
> --- In AsburyPark@yahoogroups.com, "justifiedright"  
 
> wrote:
> >
> > Hey Newb,
> > 
> >  Right in the middle today I put up a topic that was 100% about 
AP.
> >  
> > You had nothing to say about it.
> > 
> > Yet you did respond  the national political stuff.
> > 
> > What does that tell  you?
> >  
> >
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Yahoo!  Groups Links
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> **AOL Search: Your one stop for directions, recipes 
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> Holiday needs. Search Now. 
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redir=http://searchblog.aol.com/2008/11/04/happy-holidays-from
> -aol-search/?ncid=emlcntussear0001)
> 
> 
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>





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Re: [AsburyPark] Re: Here Is An Asbury Park Discussion!

[MarioAPNJ]

In a message dated 11/9/2008 8:24:55 A.M. Eastern Standard Time,  
[EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:

Personalizing.

I KNOW why you don't want to discuss this very  Asbury Park issue.
 

 
Eristic escalation.
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[AsburyPark] Re: How about we let this group focus on AP...

[justifiedright]

Kumitetoday,

While you were making this post, two very Asbury Park issues were 
rasied on this board.

Can we have the benefit of your thoughts on these subjects?

Here is one:

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/AsburyPark/message/42264



--- In AsburyPark@yahoogroups.com, "kumitetoday" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> 
wrote:
>
> --- In AsburyPark@yahoogroups.com, "Jack Pitzer"  wrote:
> >
> > ...And move all of our political talk to the political forum?
> >
> 
> i would think the monitor of this group would have the ability to
> delete posts on non Asbury topics. after all it's "owned" by 
him/her
>





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Re: [AsburyPark] Re: WoW - TGIO

[MarioAPNJ]

Don't worry about it, Newbee.  It's NOT really about AP.  It's  about culture 
wars being imposed on Asbury Park from the outside: Kwanzaa vs.  Columbus 
Day, tangents to Merry Christmas vs. Happy Holidays, and inflammatory  remarks 
about an elected official here in town.
 
The majority of us who live here have long ago dismissed all of the above;  
they're not serious issues for this town; they're just divisive.
 
 
==
 
 
In a message dated 11/9/2008 8:10:42 A.M. Eastern Standard Time,  
[EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:

What  post are you talking about?
Middle of the day?
A message number or some  other reference would help.
I have never been in a political  discussion.

--- In AsburyPark@yahoogroups.com, "justifiedright"  <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> 
wrote:
>
> Hey Newb,
> 
>  Right in the middle today I put up a topic that was 100% about AP.
>  
> You had nothing to say about it.
> 
> Yet you did respond  the national political stuff.
> 
> What does that tell  you?
>  
>





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[AsburyPark] Re: Here Is An Asbury Park Discussion!

[justifiedright]

--- In AsburyPark@yahoogroups.com, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
>
> Another Apple of Discord.  Hail, Eris!

Personalizing.

I KNOW why you don't want to discuss this very Asbury Park issue.




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[AsburyPark] Re: WoW - TGIO

[New Beetoap]

Well thank you,
A much nicer and civil attitude than your previous notes to me.
Ok maybe insider/outsider is a bad way to put it.
I'm thinking more along the lines of those who are in or around AP
daily/weekly versus those who are not in the area.

I tried to have a discussion with you before about how close someone's
involvement is effects their perceptions. You mentioned wanting proof
about the timeline. Before that you said you don't care about timelines.

See what I mean - I know about it because thats what was reported and
I know about it. You don't care about it or know about it, That doesn't
make my surprise that things are not finished invalid.


--- In AsburyPark@yahoogroups.com, "Gabrielle Obre" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> Temptation to channel Hemeon is greatsince he appears to be off
> figuring a way to keep his stuff from being our stuff.  Were I him
> this post would only be...
> 
> SMACKDOWN!
> 
> BTW newbie, i don't consider you an outsider. ap isn't a country club.
> One of the most beautiful things about it is its diversity. It has to
> be one of the most inclusive places in the state. One of the main
> reasons I moved here. I hope it stays that way.
> 
> if you were referring to some sort of political/money power inside and
> outside, i doubt those types of insiders post here very often other
> than to announce something. in that regard i am as much an "outsider"
> as you. which i find a delightful way to live. thats where the real
> juice is.
> 
> whenever i have a delightful day in AP I think "I wish Newbie were here!" 
> 
> 
> 
> --- In AsburyPark@yahoogroups.com, "justifiedright"
>  wrote:
> >
> > Hey Newb,
> > 
> > Right in the middle today I put up a topic that was 100% about AP.
> > 
> > You had nothing to say about it.
> > 
> > Yet you did respond the national political stuff.
> > 
> > What does that tell you?
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > --- In AsburyPark@yahoogroups.com, "New Beetoap"  
> > wrote:
> > >
> > > But there is a group for that from what I understand.
> > > 
> > > Why is that crap still posted here when people have asked for it 
> > to stop. Even the 
> > > moderator who seems to have washed has hands of the whole group 
> > started moderating 
> > > in the past because there was no self control.
> > > 
> > > It just shows a complete lack of courtesy and self control by 
> > those involved. I for one 
> > > would like to talk and hear about AP things. If I want to hear 
> > about politics I go to a 
> > > politics board.
> > > 
> > > --- In AsburyPark@yahoogroups.com, "justifiedright" 
> >  wrote:
> > > >
> > > > Sure Newbie, the personalizing in the political discussion was 
> > no fun 
> > > > to read.  
> > > > 
> > > > You will find that behavior on the board even when discussing AP 
> > > > matters.  Unless you are willing to point out the personalizing 
> > when 
> > > > someone does it, you are going to have to get used to it.
> > > > 
> > > > I suggest you simply post the word "personalizing" when someone 
> > does 
> > > > it so perhaps they get the hint to stop.
> > > > 
> > > > That being said, its been an Asbury Park problem that the City 
> > > > operates in a vaccum with no regard to politics and events 
> > outside 
> > > > its borders which affect the City, particularly on the County 
> > and 
> > > > State level.
> > > > 
> > > > Asbury's failure to react properly to the building of the 
> > Parkway, 
> > > > air conditioned cars, the desire of Ocean Township to have its 
> > own 
> > > > High School, the closing of Marlboro Hospital and the rise of 
> > the 
> > > > Malls (to name a few) are all examples of AP keeping its head in 
> > the 
> > > > sand about events outside the City that greatly affected it.
> > > > 
> > > > Talking about the national election was certainly important to 
> > AP, as 
> > > > important as when we talk of national financial trends.
> > > > 
> > > > 
> > > > 
> > > > 
> > > > --- In AsburyPark@yahoogroups.com, "New Beetoap"  
> > > > wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > 
> > > > > Thank God Its Over
> > > > > 
> > > > > What a huge huge bad impression the posts on this board have 
> > made.
> > > > > I cant believe the crap that came from some of you. Completely 
> > > > changed
> > > > > my impression of the caliber of people in AP. No wonder AP has 
> > been
> > > > > sooo messed up for sooo long.
> > > > > 
> > > > > OK, so I'm a outsider, My opinion doesn't count... Right? Wake 
> > up,
> > > > > this is a publicly readable board and if you think the past 
> > weeks 
> > > > have
> > > > > made a good impression and will encourage people to visit AP 
> > you are
> > > > > out of your minds.
> > > > > 
> > > > > I turned some friends on to the group thinking they could back 
> > me up
> > > > > about the importance of visual impressions and the delivering 
> > what 
> > > > was
> > > > > promised. WoW... did they get a wakeup reading all that crap.
> > > > > 
> > > > > They, and I'm sure many lurkers, or just people who got he

[AsburyPark] Re: WoW - TGIO

[justifiedright]

This one Newb:

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/AsburyPark/message/42264

Even after posting that uniquely Asbury Park topic, people came on 
to complain about the national politics posting.





--- In AsburyPark@yahoogroups.com, "New Beetoap" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> 
wrote:
>
> What post are you talking about?
> Middle of the day?
> A message number or some other reference would help.
> I have never been in a political discussion.
> 
> --- In AsburyPark@yahoogroups.com, "justifiedright" 
 wrote:
> >
> > Hey Newb,
> > 
> > Right in the middle today I put up a topic that was 100% about 
AP.
> > 
> > You had nothing to say about it.
> > 
> > Yet you did respond the national political stuff.
> > 
> > What does that tell you?
> > 
> >
>





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[AsburyPark] Re: WoW - TGIO

[New Beetoap]

What post are you talking about?
Middle of the day?
A message number or some other reference would help.
I have never been in a political discussion.

--- In AsburyPark@yahoogroups.com, "justifiedright" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> Hey Newb,
> 
> Right in the middle today I put up a topic that was 100% about AP.
> 
> You had nothing to say about it.
> 
> Yet you did respond the national political stuff.
> 
> What does that tell you?
> 
>





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RE: [AsburyPark] Re: Watermark Lounge

[Debbie DeLisa]

I agree with Doug and Kathy---The Watermark Lounge is beautiful!!!  As I was 
standing on the outside deck looking north over our city I was very proud and 
very moved to be a part of this. 
 
Also I had a chance to enjoy a wonderful dinner at Stella Marina-I felt as if I 
was dining in Manhattan.  Thank you to Joe and his staff from Serenas and also 
to Madison Marquette for bringin such an extraordinary restaurant to Asbury 
Park.



To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]: [EMAIL PROTECTED]: Sat, 8 Nov 2008 16:51:25 
+Subject: [AsburyPark] Re: Watermark Lounge



Sounds cool.--- In AsburyPark@yahoogroups.com, "dougandcathy_mcqueen" <[EMAIL 
PROTECTED]> wrote:>> Last night my wife and I went to the "soft" opening of the 
Watermark > Lounge in the First Avenue Pavillion. They expect to open on by 
about > November 15th, but they had friends and family there last night so that 
> the bartenders could get up to speed.> > The place is stunning on inside. 
There are huge areas of comfortable > seating overlooking the ocean, a great 
patio, and a large bar area. > The face of the lodgepole pine bar is a true 
piece of craftsmanship. > There is a gas fireplace in an area that repeats the 
lodgepole pine > theme. The patio is going to be great in the summer. Their 
special > drink menu has lots of interesting items.> > It's definitely worth 
checking out.> 





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[AsburyPark] A Political Manners Manual

[MarioAPNJ]

 
In a message dated 11/9/2008 12:28:37 A.M. Eastern Standard Time,  
[EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
 
During  the election I was a complete Huffington Post addict. It
already seems  obnoxious to me. At least the comments. I made fun of
Palin as much and  sometimes worse than anyone, but they just keep on
at it. Gail Collins had  a nice piece about being good winners. I think
a lot more people need to  read it.


===
Same feelings here, Gabrielle.  Gail Collins' piece was not only  about 
gloating winners but also sore losers.
 
Enough with Palin and Barney the White House dog.  Maybe some pointers  below 
to keep in mind regarding our next city council election
 
A Political Manners Manual - >>>  http://tinyurl.com/5zox4g
 
With all the stories about people doing happy dances in the street  and 
smiling on the subways after Barack Obama won, we have overlooked the dark  
side of 
the postelection mood.
 
 
I am sorry to say that there have been some instances of gloating  winners 
and sore losers, going even beyond the moment when Barney the White  House dog 
bit a Reuters reporter. 
For instance, there was the matter of Senator Lindsey Graham. In the  fervor 
of the final week of the campaign, Graham basically promised to drown  himself 
if Barack Obama took North Carolina. When I wrote that we did not really  
expect Graham to follow through, a number of readers took  exception. 
“A promise is a promise,” wrote John Kaseley of Bonita Springs,  Fla. 
“Can’t we at least throw him in the lake?” asked someone else.  
There are two problems with this attitude. First of all, you cannot  be angry 
with Republicans for supporting the Republican presidential candidate.  It’s 
like getting angry at squirrels for climbing trees. Second, and far more  
important, Graham is not actually going to drown himself, so you might as well  
get points for urging him to stay out of the water.  
In the good old days, victorious politicians did not have to worry  about 
currying good will. Their defeated opponents were sent to work out their  
issues 
in the Libyan salt mines. That doesn’t happen much anymore, so let’s try  to 
be gracious. 
Sure, it was an intense campaign. Of course, regrettable things were  said in 
the heat of the moment. My mother and my sister Patti, for instance, had  an 
argument about the prospects of the local Republican congressman that  
culminated in my mother betting her house that he would be re-elected. But when 
 he 
lost, Patti generously announced that she had decided to let Mom stay in  
residence. I think this is the spirit we should all be trying to  emulate. 
Still, there is a fine line between good sportsmanship and being  played for 
a sucker. I am thinking of McCain’s other BFF, Senator Joseph  Lieberman, who 
not only endorsed the Republican ticket and spoke at the  Republican 
convention but also said, in the course of the campaign, that unlike  McCain, 
Obama did 
not always put his country first. Since Lieberman is part of  the Senate 
Democratic caucus, all this is not normal like squirrels climbing  trees. It’s 
more like squirrels breaking into your house and setting fire to the  sofa.  
On the other hand, the most Lieberman accomplished with months and  months of 
nonstop campaigning was to push McCain support in his home state of  
Connecticut to 38 percent. Treachery is bad, but inept treachery is easier to  
get 
over. Since Harry Reid, the Senate majority leader, needs the vote, you  could 
understand him telling Lieberman that he’s still welcome. 
Lieberman, however, apparently is demanding that he also be allowed  to keep 
his chairmanship of the homeland security committee. CNN reported that  he 
turned down appointments to less prestigious posts and went home to mull his  
options. I know what you’re wondering, but Lieberman did not promise to drown  
himself if Connecticut failed to go for John McCain.  
The Republicans are being way more nasty to Sarah Palin than the  Democrats 
are to Lieberman. They’ve been portraying her as both a shopaholic and  a woman 
who walks around in nothing but a bath towel, a hillbilly who’s also a  prima 
donna. The leakathon climaxed this week when Fox News’s Carl Cameron  
announced that Palin did not know that Africa was a continent. 
Palin says this is untrue. But the worst part is that if these people  get 
any meaner, we’re going to wind up feeling sorry for her. This is not  
something 
we are looking forward to, Republicans, and we will resent you for  it. 
Another bad role model on the postelection manners front is the House  
minority leader, John Boehner, who called Rahm Emanuel, Obama’s future White  
House 
chief of staff, “an ironic choice for a president-elect who has promised  to 
change Washington, make politics more civil and govern from the  center.” 
The only possible argument for this kind of language was that it was  
actually not all that inaccurate.  
Still, nobody should want to be first i

Re: [AsburyPark] Re: Here Is An Asbury Park Discussion!

[MarioAPNJ]

Another Apple of Discord.  Hail, Eris!
 
 
In a message dated 11/8/2008 9:02:56 P.M. Eastern Standard Time,  
[EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:

Well  Mario, not everyone was here in years past.  I would like to 
hear  from new people about what they think.

Also, Councilman Keady did again  just last month, rail against the 
expenditure of public funds for Columbus  Day, a cultural celebration.

I don't know the answer of whether he  objects to the public 
expenditure of money for the Kwanzaa cultural  celebration.

Seems a fair question to ask of a public  official.

If you are out there Councilman Keady, I hope you will make a  
clarifying statement.

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