Re: [AsburyPark] Re: C-8 part 2....1 year later
I believe the city came to an agreement with Metro. Payment for the City attorney fees and a new timeline was decided. I can't find the info but Dec 2008 or Jan 2009 sticks in my head for Metro to submit a new plan. From: Jack Pitzer <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: AsburyPark@yahoogroups.com Sent: Thursday, December 4, 2008 3:18:43 PM Subject: [AsburyPark] Re: C-8 part 21 year later Perhaps the ESP could be repurposed into being an urban paintball game, with a special area similar to "Shoot the Geek" in Pt. Pleasant, but in the AP version, the geek could be wearing a Dean Geibel mask. --- In [EMAIL PROTECTED] ups.com, "wernerapnj" wrote: > > --- In [EMAIL PROTECTED] ups.com, "cwpvt" wrote: > > > > It's been a year, can't the City force them to remove what is there > > if they are not going to use it? Or hire someone to remove it and > > bill the owner. I would assume that if they can arrest someone for a > > porch, they can have the owner (who is still in business) fined until > > it's gone. The same thing with the Metropolitan, why is that hulk > > still standing. I would have to assume they removed the good part, > > because they were afraid that someone was going to force them to > > restore it. If I remember correctly, the city sent an engineer over > > who said it was unsafe, or that was the excuse anyway! Wouldn't the > > remains qualify the same way? > > > = = = = === == > > It would actually be better to include the Esperanza site in the > parking discussion. The part that is built is the proposed parking levels. > > It could be finished as such rather easily forming the base of a > future tower expansion should the economy warrant. > > The City could exercise Eminent Domain, take the site, make it public > property and then lease the rights to operate it as Parking with some > commercial uses perhaps. > > Thank you for the thought, I see myself in your post > Several terms come to mind: > > - Selective Enforcement > - Malicious Prosecution > > I've been photo documenting various sites for years. > It's clear that there is some 'Personalizing' going on. > > Werner > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/AsburyPark/ <*> Your email settings: Individual Email | Traditional <*> To change settings online go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/AsburyPark/join (Yahoo! ID required) <*> To change settings via email: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[AsburyPark] Re: C-8 part 2....1 year later
--- In AsburyPark@yahoogroups.com, "Jack Pitzer" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > Didn't the ESP shut down this month last year? > Has anybody heard any updates about it fate, or plans to restart building? > It's starting to be a real slap in the cities face that there's another > derelict structure on the > same exact location as the last one. > = What about the indignation expressed by the City Council at that time? Demanding an accounting of their financial information as I recall. Giving deadlines for a response, making a big show of it in the media. So, where is the info? Werner Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/AsburyPark/ <*> Your email settings: Individual Email | Traditional <*> To change settings online go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/AsburyPark/join (Yahoo! ID required) <*> To change settings via email: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[AsburyPark] Re: C-8 part 2....1 year later
Perhaps the ESP could be repurposed into being an urban paintball game, with a special area similar to "Shoot the Geek" in Pt. Pleasant, but in the AP version, the geek could be wearing a Dean Geibel mask. --- In AsburyPark@yahoogroups.com, "wernerapnj" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > --- In AsburyPark@yahoogroups.com, "cwpvt" wrote: > > > > It's been a year, can't the City force them to remove what is there > > if they are not going to use it? Or hire someone to remove it and > > bill the owner. I would assume that if they can arrest someone for a > > porch, they can have the owner (who is still in business) fined until > > it's gone. The same thing with the Metropolitan, why is that hulk > > still standing. I would have to assume they removed the good part, > > because they were afraid that someone was going to force them to > > restore it. If I remember correctly, the city sent an engineer over > > who said it was unsafe, or that was the excuse anyway! Wouldn't the > > remains qualify the same way? > > > === == > > It would actually be better to include the Esperanza site in the > parking discussion. The part that is built is the proposed parking levels. > > It could be finished as such rather easily forming the base of a > future tower expansion should the economy warrant. > > The City could exercise Eminent Domain, take the site, make it public > property and then lease the rights to operate it as Parking with some > commercial uses perhaps. > > Thank you for the thought, I see myself in your post > Several terms come to mind: > > - Selective Enforcement > - Malicious Prosecution > > I've been photo documenting various sites for years. > It's clear that there is some 'Personalizing' going on. > > Werner > Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/AsburyPark/ <*> Your email settings: Individual Email | Traditional <*> To change settings online go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/AsburyPark/join (Yahoo! ID required) <*> To change settings via email: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[AsburyPark] Re: C-8 part 2....1 year later
--- In AsburyPark@yahoogroups.com, "cwpvt" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > It's been a year, can't the City force them to remove what is there > if they are not going to use it? Or hire someone to remove it and > bill the owner. I would assume that if they can arrest someone for a > porch, they can have the owner (who is still in business) fined until > it's gone. The same thing with the Metropolitan, why is that hulk > still standing. I would have to assume they removed the good part, > because they were afraid that someone was going to force them to > restore it. If I remember correctly, the city sent an engineer over > who said it was unsafe, or that was the excuse anyway! Wouldn't the > remains qualify the same way? > = It would actually be better to include the Esperanza site in the parking discussion. The part that is built is the proposed parking levels. It could be finished as such rather easily forming the base of a future tower expansion should the economy warrant. The City could exercise Eminent Domain, take the site, make it public property and then lease the rights to operate it as Parking with some commercial uses perhaps. Thank you for the thought, I see myself in your post Several terms come to mind: - Selective Enforcement - Malicious Prosecution I've been photo documenting various sites for years. It's clear that there is some 'Personalizing' going on. Werner Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/AsburyPark/ <*> Your email settings: Individual Email | Traditional <*> To change settings online go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/AsburyPark/join (Yahoo! ID required) <*> To change settings via email: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[AsburyPark] Re: C-8 part 2....1 year later
The problem is there might be 60 million of construction costs already spent sitting there. Why scrap that? If anything, that could lure a new builder in who doesn't have to re-create what is there but can build on top. This is clearly delayed but not unworkable. --- In AsburyPark@yahoogroups.com, "cwpvt" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > It's been a year, can't the City force them to remove what is there > if they are not going to use it? Or hire someone to remove it and > bill the owner. I would assume that if they can arrest someone for a > porch, they can have the owner (who is still in business) fined until > it's gone. The same thing with the Metropolitan, why is that hulk > still standing. I would have to assume they removed the good part, > because they were afraid that someone was going to force them to > restore it. If I remember correctly, the city sent an engineer over > who said it was unsafe, or that was the excuse anyway! Wouldn't the > remains qualify the same way? > > > > > > --- In AsburyPark@yahoogroups.com, "dsher4" wrote: > > > > The sad fact is that it is virtually impossible to get a loan to do > > almost anything at the current time for even the most creditworthy > > of borrowers. > > Real Estate is on the lower end of the health spectrum at the > moment. > > I have no specific knowledge here but my guess is that this project > > is going nowhere for a while until the health of the lending market > > improves considerably. > > So the update would be that it is in limbo for quite some time. > > > > > > --- In AsburyPark@yahoogroups.com, "Jack Pitzer" wrote: > > > > > > Didn't the ESP shut down this month last year? > > > Has anybody heard any updates about it fate, or plans to restart > > building? > > > It's starting to be a real slap in the cities face that there's > > another derelict structure on the > > > same exact location as the last one. > > > > > > Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/AsburyPark/ <*> Your email settings: Individual Email | Traditional <*> To change settings online go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/AsburyPark/join (Yahoo! ID required) <*> To change settings via email: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[AsburyPark] Re: C-8 part 2....1 year later
It's been a year, can't the City force them to remove what is there if they are not going to use it? Or hire someone to remove it and bill the owner. I would assume that if they can arrest someone for a porch, they can have the owner (who is still in business) fined until it's gone. The same thing with the Metropolitan, why is that hulk still standing. I would have to assume they removed the good part, because they were afraid that someone was going to force them to restore it. If I remember correctly, the city sent an engineer over who said it was unsafe, or that was the excuse anyway! Wouldn't the remains qualify the same way? --- In AsburyPark@yahoogroups.com, "dsher4" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > The sad fact is that it is virtually impossible to get a loan to do > almost anything at the current time for even the most creditworthy > of borrowers. > Real Estate is on the lower end of the health spectrum at the moment. > I have no specific knowledge here but my guess is that this project > is going nowhere for a while until the health of the lending market > improves considerably. > So the update would be that it is in limbo for quite some time. > > > --- In AsburyPark@yahoogroups.com, "Jack Pitzer" wrote: > > > > Didn't the ESP shut down this month last year? > > Has anybody heard any updates about it fate, or plans to restart > building? > > It's starting to be a real slap in the cities face that there's > another derelict structure on the > > same exact location as the last one. > > > Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/AsburyPark/ <*> Your email settings: Individual Email | Traditional <*> To change settings online go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/AsburyPark/join (Yahoo! ID required) <*> To change settings via email: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[AsburyPark] Re: C-8 part 2....1 year later
The sad fact is that it is virtually impossible to get a loan to do almost anything at the current time for even the most creditworthy of borrowers. Real Estate is on the lower end of the health spectrum at the moment. I have no specific knowledge here but my guess is that this project is going nowhere for a while until the health of the lending market improves considerably. So the update would be that it is in limbo for quite some time. --- In AsburyPark@yahoogroups.com, "Jack Pitzer" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > Didn't the ESP shut down this month last year? > Has anybody heard any updates about it fate, or plans to restart building? > It's starting to be a real slap in the cities face that there's another derelict structure on the > same exact location as the last one. > Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/AsburyPark/ <*> Your email settings: Individual Email | Traditional <*> To change settings online go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/AsburyPark/join (Yahoo! ID required) <*> To change settings via email: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [AsburyPark] Re: C-8 Coming Down
"I think the guy likes to hear himself talk or in this case read what he typed." i think you all do. Blab-away for as little as 1¢/min. Make PC-to-Phone Calls using Yahoo! Messenger with Voice. SPONSORED LINKS Asbury park home Asbury park nj Asbury park hotel Asbury park foreclosure Asbury park real estate Asbury park YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS Visit your group "AsburyPark" on the web. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
[AsburyPark] Re: C-8 Coming Down-Dan's Notes
--- In AsburyPark@yahoogroups.com, "dfsavgny" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > --- In AsburyPark@yahoogroups.com, charlie leonard > wrote: > > > > C-8 was going to be 14 and 10 i havn't talked, or read anything on this board in a few months. > but i think ill try and make it back. did something change with the > esparenza's plan? twice as tall?? im pretty sure the c8 standing now, > is about 12.. and the esarenza is said to be built out to the orignaly > height of the c8, 18th? > > > The new tower is taller, but better yet, you only saw ONE tower on C-8; > there will be two now. > Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/AsburyPark/ <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[AsburyPark] Re: C-8 Coming Down - a multitude of sins
--- In AsburyPark@yahoogroups.com, "Skip Bernstein" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > When you've not drunk in days a puddle of muddy water may tempt, when > you haven't eaten for a week an old shoe might cause you to drool, and > when you've lived in a once great city, whose delights have been left > to rack and ruin for 30 years, the demolition of a 12 story eyesore > could cause you to think the future bright; however, it is equally > likely that this joyous moment merely hides and disguises a multitude > of sins not dealt with, still lying just beneath the surface. > I hear you! They're making it look like "something" is being done when in essence, it's the end of one mistake, going back from 84' to the present! All of these problems go back to 1984. What were a lot of you doing back then? Back when they shut the boardwalk down? I had 3 kids in college, with no financial aid, loans, or anything! Still had 2 kids in Jr. High and High School! OK, 3 tears in a bucket for me! I'll bet half of the posters ween't living here, then, and if so, no one knew the repercussions of the nightmare Carabetta eventually took us through! He virtually drained the life's blood, what was left of it, OUT of this City! Now here we are 22 years later and how far have we come with the Partners? Another oxymoron! Ler Er' Rip! Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/AsburyPark/ <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[AsburyPark] Re: C-8 Coming Down-Dan's Notes
--- In AsburyPark@yahoogroups.com, charlie leonard <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > i havn't talked, or read anything on this board in a few months. but i think ill try and make it back. did something change with the esparenza's plan? twice as tall?? im pretty sure the c8 standing now, is about 12.. and the esarenza is said to be built out to the orignaly height of the c8, 18th? The new tower is taller, but better yet, you only saw ONE tower on C-8; there will be two now. Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/AsburyPark/ <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [AsburyPark] Re: C-8 Coming Down-Dan's Notes
"After all, C8 represents the fastest of the once proclaimed "fasttrack" projects, and after 4 years of Larry's do nothing agenda, itsremoval merely signifies "a new day" wherein something twice as tallwill supposedly thrill us in the midst of the despair and disrepair ofa very fishy waterfront; drink up, you may well need it." i havn't talked, or read anything on this board in a few months. but i think ill try and make it back. did something change with the esparenza's plan? twice as tall?? im pretty sure the c8 standing now, is about 12.. and the esarenza is said to be built out to the orignaly height of the c8, 18th? Yahoo! Messenger with Voice. PC-to-Phone calls for ridiculously low rates. SPONSORED LINKS Asbury park home Asbury park nj Asbury park hotel Asbury park foreclosure Asbury park real estate Asbury park YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS Visit your group "AsburyPark" on the web. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
[AsburyPark] Re: C-8 Coming Down - a multitude of sins
When you've not drunk in days a puddle of muddy water may tempt, when you haven't eaten for a week an old shoe might cause you to drool, and when you've lived in a once great city, whose delights have been left to rack and ruin for 30 years, the demolition of a 12 story eyesore could cause you to think the future bright; however, it is equally likely that this joyous moment merely hides and disguises a multitude of sins not dealt with, still lying just beneath the surface. Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/AsburyPark/ <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[AsburyPark] Re: C-8 Coming Down
--- In AsburyPark@yahoogroups.com, "dfsavgny" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > --- In AsburyPark@yahoogroups.com, "Fred" wrote: > > > > OK I got it. It was the deal and the courts upheld it. > > > > What was the deal? The issue of whether C-8 can be rebuilt has not > been brought before the court.Neither has the issue of which is the > proper WRP - June 5, 2002 or March 15, 2002, or if either plan was > in fact lawfully adopted since the city apprently did not follow the > requisite statutes to adopt a WRP, which of course would then make > the 1991 the only valid WRP. If you are talking anout the recent > lawsuit decision that was a challenge to the WRP on the basis that > property owners are not afforded the rightto develp their own > properties. Bad decision, but what the court said was that their > cases were not ripe since they had not exhausted all alternatives, > i.e., apply to Asbury Partners to be subdevelopers of their own > properties. Nothing to do with what I am talking about, which is, > issuing a building permit that violates the WRP. I say the June 5 > WRP is the valid one (if you pick the March WRP then there is no > valid WRP except 1991) but even the March Draft only allows a > developer to "finish" the C-8 project. No reasonable person can > interprete what is now going on to be "finishing." I'd like to see > the Esperanza built, but that doesn't change the facts. > Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/AsburyPark/ <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[AsburyPark] Re: C-8 Coming Down
--- In AsburyPark@yahoogroups.com, "Fred" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > It was the deal and the courts upheld it. > What was the deal? The issue of whether C-8 can be rebuilt has not been brought before the court.Neither has the issue of which is the proper WRP - June 5, 2002 or March 15, 2002, or if either plan was in fact lawfully adopted since the city apprently did not follow the requisite statutes to adopt a WRP, which of course would then make the 1991 the only valid WRP. If you are talking anout the recent lawsuit decision that was a challenge to the WRP on the basis that property owners are not afforded the rightto develp their own properties. Bad decision, but what the court said was that their cases were not ripe since they had not exhausted all alternatives, i.e., apply to Asbury Partners to be subdevelopers of their own properties. Nothing to do with what I am talking about, which is, issuing a building permit that violates the WRP. I say the June 5 WRP is the valid one (if you pick the March WRP then there is no valid WRP except 1991) but even the March Draft only allows a developer to "finish" the C-8 project. No reasonable person can interprete what is now going on to be "finishing." I'd like to see the Esperanza built, but that doesn't change the facts. Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/AsburyPark/ <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[AsburyPark] Re: C-8 Coming Down
--- In AsburyPark@yahoogroups.com, "dfsavgny" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > --- In AsburyPark@yahoogroups.com, "Fred" wrote: > > > > It was the deal and the courts upheld it. If you think you can be Aaron in Court go for it. > > > > > > Sometimes it doesn't matter if you win; courts makewrong decisioms > al the time. What matters is that you have your day in court and > show that officials can't run a city as a personal fiefdom wihtout > challenge. Of course there is not as strong a deterent as winning. > At best I put the chances at 50-50. It will not be easy to win, not > because I don't think the facts favor such as result, but because it > may be politically impossible for the court to decide agains the > city. And winning might not be such a popular result, although it > would be the rightone. I don't think there is a person in AP who has > been around since the plan was created who believed C-8 could be > rebuilt if demolished. That just wasn't the deal (and I wasn't > around). > Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/AsburyPark/ <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[AsburyPark] Re: C-8 Coming Down
--- In AsburyPark@yahoogroups.com, "Fred" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > >If you think you can be Aaron in Court go for it. > > Sometimes it doesn't matter if you win; courts makewrong decisioms al the time. What matters is that you have your day in court and show that officials can't run a city as a personal fiefdom wihtout challenge. Of course there is not as strong a deterent as winning. At best I put the chances at 50-50. It will not be easy to win, not because I don't think the facts favor such as result, but because it may be politically impossible for the court to decide agains the city. And winning might not be such a popular result, although it would be the rightone. I don't think there is a person in AP who has been around since the plan was created who believed C-8 could be rebuilt if demolished. That just wasn't the deal (and I wasn't around). Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/AsburyPark/ <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[AsburyPark] Re: C-8 Coming Down
--- In AsburyPark@yahoogroups.com, "dfsavgny" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > Excerpts from APP with my comments > > atIf you think you can be Aaron in Court go for it. "With help from about 90 pounds of explosives, the 130-foot-tall, 60- > foot-wide structure on Kingsley Street between Third and Fourth > avenues will come crashing down. Thousands of people are expected to > watch, and television cameras will be on hand to capture the > building's downfall." > > But an even bigger building will go up in its place. Bigger than > most realize. > > "It's over. It's finally over, Councilman James Bruno said > Wednesday." > > As Yogi said Jimbo, it ain't over till its over. > > "It's been nothing but frustration. It's the last remnant of the > failed redevelopment." > > Yes it is, but are the decaying hulks now on a waterfront a symbol > of a successful redevelopment? > > "It's been a gargantuan effort to get to this point, said Dean > Geibel, the managing partner of Metro Homes." > > You're not over the finish line yet Dean. There might be a little > difficulty actually being able to build the Esperanza. > > "I hope that thousands of people will watch it come down, said > Councilman John Loffredo, who will push the button to start the > implosion." > > This is the most ironic part of the story. John campaigned (when the > WRP was being negotiated) to demolish C-8, and as part of the > Planning Board, recommended that it be demolished rather than > reused. The PB and Johnny went even further recommending that no one > be able to rebuild on the site higher than the height limitations > for the rest of the waterfront (3, 4 and 8 stories). The WRP infact > adopted the latter but permitted rebuilding. John posed with C-8 for > TCN vowing to have it demolished and even went on the radio (Asbury > Radio) stating his opinions, including that anything built on the > site taller than the height limitations would stick out like a sore > thumb. John has now done an about face. Not his first and not his > last. Some of us still care about the truth. The only way to > determine if the WRP REALLY allows C-8 to be rebuilt is to have a > full hearing of the facts before the court. I'll be glad to see C-8 > come down and the Esperanza to go up, but the latter only if it is > done legally. The WRP must be amended. > Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/AsburyPark/ <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[AsburyPark] Re: C-8 Coming Down
--- In AsburyPark@yahoogroups.com, "dfsavgny" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > --- In AsburyPark@yahoogroups.com, "apoojo" wrote: > > > > > > sounds like this is going to the courts on your behalf? i also > care > > > > > It's hard to pound your chest when you have man breasts. That being > said, why should I care about saying I told you so? I know I am > right and the council is wrong. From what I have seen from the NJ > courts I doubt I would prevail anyway and it would probably be the > council, Aaron and Fred here laughing and them saying "I told you > so." If I go forward (and I really don't feel like spending the > money) it would certainly not be on my behalf or benefit. As I said > to someone recently who asked if I had an interest in the C-8 site, > I replied that I only have an interest in my own house in AP and I > am losing that interest rapidly because of the shenanigans. So my > intentions are to do what is right because it is simply the right > thing to do. > thank you for your answer, i not like the next guy that comments, about your motvies respect your answer Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/AsburyPark/ <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[AsburyPark] Re: C-8 Coming Down
--- In AsburyPark@yahoogroups.com, Allan Peterson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > I think the guy likes to hear himself talk or in this case read what he typed. Actually both Allan, but irrelevant as to my raison de etre. Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/AsburyPark/ <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[AsburyPark] Re: C-8 Coming Down-Dan's Notes
--- In AsburyPark@yahoogroups.com, "bluebishop82" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > Your comments below sound a little sour. I haven't heard anyone > else talk this way about the event, no matter how they feel about > this redevelopment. > Since the steel was coming down no matter what, whether they can > build to 16 stories or only 8, why not jump in with the rest of us > and have some fun with it this weekend. Personally I am estatic about C-8 coming down. That I can cheer and will, in fact, I have a ticket for the explosion and hope I can work it out to be there since I have a communion party as well that day. But I can compartmentalize issues and I think it is important that we don't lose sight over this happy moment about the scam the city is trying to pull with C-8's rebuilding. While happy about its demolition, it reminds me of what the city's blatant lies over this episode which I find insulting. Not sour, just bittersweet. Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/AsburyPark/ <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[AsburyPark] Re: C-8 Coming Down-Dan's Notes
"Your comments below sound a little sour. I haven't heard anyone else talk this way about the event, no matter how they feel about this redevelopment. This is a chance for some real unity in the City. One big party weekend centered around something we all agree on - that ugly thing will no longer be in view." Perhaps what you hear is a note of disappointment that while most agree C8's coming down is good, any celebration ignores the many residents and businesses forced to pay the piper, so as to give obscene millions to The Fishman and his band of thieves. After all, C8 represents the fastest of the once proclaimed "fast track" projects, and after 4 years of Larry's do nothing agenda, its removal merely signifies "a new day" wherein something twice as tall will supposedly thrill us in the midst of the despair and disrepair of a very fishy waterfront; drink up, you may well need it. Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/AsburyPark/ <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [AsburyPark] Re: C-8 Coming Down
I think the guy likes to hear himself talk or in this case read what he typed.apoojo <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: --- In AsburyPark@yahoogroups.com, "dfsavgny" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:>> Excerpts from APP with my comments> > > "It's over. It's finally over, Councilman James Bruno said > Wednesday."> > As Yogi said Jimbo, it ain't over till its over.> > Yes it is, but are the decaying hulks now on a waterfront a symbol > of a successful redevelopment?> > "It's been a gargantuan effort to get to this point, said Dean > Geibel, the managing partner of Metro Homes."> > You're not over the finish line yet Dean. There might be a little > difficulty actually being able to build the Esperanza.> > > Some of us still care about the truth. The only way to > determine if the WRP REALLY allows C-8 to be rebuilt is to have a > full hearing of the facts before the court. I'll be glad to see C-8 > come down and the Esperanza to go up, but the latter only if it is > done legally. The WRP must be amended.>sounds like this is going to the courts on your behalf? i also care about the truth, met you twice at council meetings, i know you are intelligent,and hopefully sincere. please state your intended litigation, if it is to pound your chest and say i told you so, i disagree with you, if it is to negotiate to give them more units to save other areas, and get fair market value for the triangle, you may have many supporters, again please state your intentions, like denzel said explain it to me(us) as if i am a second grader. this is written with all due respect to you i am not busting your back, i would just like to know your intentions, i do not think putting them out in public will hurt your case, but if you do i respect your reply saying that thank you. Yahoo! Messenger with Voice. Make PC-to-Phone Calls to the US (and 30+ countries) for 2¢/min or less. YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS Visit your group "AsburyPark" on the web. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
[AsburyPark] Re: C-8 Coming Down
--- In AsburyPark@yahoogroups.com, "apoojo" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > > sounds like this is going to the courts on your behalf? i also care > about the truth, met you twice at council meetings, i know you are > intelligent,and hopefully sincere. please state your intended > litigation, if it is to pound your chest and say i told you so, i > disagree with you, if it is to negotiate to give them more units to > save other areas, and get fair market value for the triangle, you may > have many supporters, again please state your intentions, like denzel > said explain it to me(us) as if i am a second grader. this is written > with all due respect to you i am not busting your back, i would just > like to know your intentions, i do not think putting them out in > public will hurt your case, but if you do i respect your reply saying > that thank you. > It's hard to pound your chest when you have man breasts. That being said, why should I care about saying I told you so? I know I am right and the council is wrong. From what I have seen from the NJ courts I doubt I would prevail anyway and it would probably be the council, Aaron and Fred here laughing and them saying "I told you so." If I go forward (and I really don't feel like spending the money) it would certainly not be on my behalf or benefit. As I said to someone recently who asked if I had an interest in the C-8 site, I replied that I only have an interest in my own house in AP and I am losing that interest rapidly because of the shenanigans. So my intentions are to do what is right because it is simply the right thing to do. The WRP says it cannot be built whether you read the March draft or the June version we all know and love. I have even informed the city privately that they could simply ward off any lawsuit by just amending the WRP. They are so stubborn and know-it- alls that they will cut off their noses to spite their faces. I learned early on that the truth does not have to jump through hoops to be believed. The city's reaction to the claim that the WRP does not permit the rebuilding of C-8 was to jump through hoops. Quite simply a comedy of errors. So to answer your question - I might sue and I might not. I certainly will if I have support because I have nothing to gain but to have the truth revealed. I may just say "why bother" like so many in this city. Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/AsburyPark/ <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[AsburyPark] Re: C-8 Coming Down-Dan's Notes
Dan there is a very fun atmosphere in AP this week in anticipation of this. It's like everyone is gearing up for a big party. People are feeling some sort of release in the symbolism, and it feels great. I know it doesn't really mean anything, but somethimes that's what symbolism is about. Your comments below sound a little sour. I haven't heard anyone else talk this way about the event, no matter how they feel about this redevelopment. Since the steel was coming down no matter what, whether they can build to 16 stories or only 8, why not jump in with the rest of us and have some fun with it this weekend. This is a chance for some real unity in the City. One big party weekend centered around something we all agree on - that ugly thing will no longer be in view. I know you have strong feelings about where we go from here, and I respect that. This weekend though, I just want to raise a glass with you and your fine family and enjoy this time of comraderie. I'll see you out there, freind! --- In AsburyPark@yahoogroups.com, "dfsavgny" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > Excerpts from APP with my comments > > "With help from about 90 pounds of explosives, the 130-foot-tall, 60- > foot-wide structure on Kingsley Street between Third and Fourth > avenues will come crashing down. Thousands of people are expected to > watch, and television cameras will be on hand to capture the > building's downfall." > > But an even bigger building will go up in its place. Bigger than > most realize. > > "It's over. It's finally over, Councilman James Bruno said > Wednesday." > > As Yogi said Jimbo, it ain't over till its over. > > "It's been nothing but frustration. It's the last remnant of the > failed redevelopment." > > Yes it is, but are the decaying hulks now on a waterfront a symbol > of a successful redevelopment? > > "It's been a gargantuan effort to get to this point, said Dean > Geibel, the managing partner of Metro Homes." > > You're not over the finish line yet Dean. There might be a little > difficulty actually being able to build the Esperanza. > > "I hope that thousands of people will watch it come down, said > Councilman John Loffredo, who will push the button to start the > implosion." > > This is the most ironic part of the story. John campaigned (when the > WRP was being negotiated) to demolish C-8, and as part of the > Planning Board, recommended that it be demolished rather than > reused. The PB and Johnny went even further recommending that no one > be able to rebuild on the site higher than the height limitations > for the rest of the waterfront (3, 4 and 8 stories). The WRP infact > adopted the latter but permitted rebuilding. John posed with C-8 for > TCN vowing to have it demolished and even went on the radio (Asbury > Radio) stating his opinions, including that anything built on the > site taller than the height limitations would stick out like a sore > thumb. John has now done an about face. Not his first and not his > last. Some of us still care about the truth. The only way to > determine if the WRP REALLY allows C-8 to be rebuilt is to have a > full hearing of the facts before the court. I'll be glad to see C- 8 > come down and the Esperanza to go up, but the latter only if it is > done legally. The WRP must be amended. > Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/AsburyPark/ <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[AsburyPark] Re: C-8 Coming Down
--- In AsburyPark@yahoogroups.com, "dfsavgny" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > Excerpts from APP with my comments > > > "It's over. It's finally over, Councilman James Bruno said > Wednesday." > > As Yogi said Jimbo, it ain't over till its over. > > Yes it is, but are the decaying hulks now on a waterfront a symbol > of a successful redevelopment? > > "It's been a gargantuan effort to get to this point, said Dean > Geibel, the managing partner of Metro Homes." > > You're not over the finish line yet Dean. There might be a little > difficulty actually being able to build the Esperanza. > > > Some of us still care about the truth. The only way to > determine if the WRP REALLY allows C-8 to be rebuilt is to have a > full hearing of the facts before the court. I'll be glad to see C-8 > come down and the Esperanza to go up, but the latter only if it is > done legally. The WRP must be amended. > sounds like this is going to the courts on your behalf? i also care about the truth, met you twice at council meetings, i know you are intelligent,and hopefully sincere. please state your intended litigation, if it is to pound your chest and say i told you so, i disagree with you, if it is to negotiate to give them more units to save other areas, and get fair market value for the triangle, you may have many supporters, again please state your intentions, like denzel said explain it to me(us) as if i am a second grader. this is written with all due respect to you i am not busting your back, i would just like to know your intentions, i do not think putting them out in public will hurt your case, but if you do i respect your reply saying that thank you. Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/AsburyPark/ <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[AsburyPark] Re: C-8 Language Solved
--- In AsburyPark@yahoogroups.com, "bluebishop82" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > What cause of action would your lawsuit plead Many things I assume including following a plan that is not valid (March), violating the legally valid plan (June), violating public trust, etc. , and what relief would > it seek? Do you think drawing and quartering might be too heavy handed? > What "crime" would you allege has been committed if you talk to the > FBI? Oh Tom, must you ask? If what I say is true (and it is, just read for yourself) do you not think crime(s) have been committed? As I said before, the best we have to hope for is incompetence. It is attitudes like yours in the face of apparent malfeasance that have allowed such corruption to fester in NJ. No one can explain what has or is going on here. If the glove fits, you must acquit. Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ~--> Get fast access to your favorite Yahoo! Groups. Make Yahoo! your home page http://us.click.yahoo.com/dpRU5A/wUILAA/yQLSAA/Y2tolB/TM ~-> Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/AsburyPark/ <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[AsburyPark] Re: C-8 Language Solved
--- In AsburyPark@yahoogroups.com, "dfsavgny" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > I have given an > ultimatium to the City to come clean and fire Aaron. If not, lawsuit > and FBI time. Enough is enough. What cause of action would your lawsuit plead, and what relief would it seek? What "crime" would you allege has been committed if you talk to the FBI? Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ~--> Get fast access to your favorite Yahoo! Groups. Make Yahoo! your home page http://us.click.yahoo.com/dpRU5A/wUILAA/yQLSAA/Y2tolB/TM ~-> Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/AsburyPark/ <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[AsburyPark] Re: C-8 What Happen?
--- In AsburyPark@yahoogroups.com, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: > John Clark would have made Richard Nixon proud. > The developer's lawyer did the talking for the consultant. > > New Councilman James Keady thinks Mr. Aarron, the city's redevelopment > attorney should reign. > Do you remember when the old council was going to replace Phil Konvis & > Terry Weldon's associates? > Aaron said outside the meeting that he does not plan to leave his job. > Does anybody remember when Mr. Aaron did step down? He did for a couple of > weeks. > And Deputy Mayor James Bruno on Friday said: "The majority of the council is > behind Jim Aaron." > Do you remember when Councilman John Loffredo and followers wanted C-8 taken > down. I wrote to Nancy Sheilds congratulating her on the article and especially for refraining from editorializing. However, I did acknowledge that she ommitted certain facts, most notably the fact tha Clarke could not remember WHAT he did or WHY he did it. Also, she failed to report that Faiella did most of the "testifying". In the end, they brough John Clarke in to "fall on his sword" like a good Roman, yet we are still no closer to knowing WHY a June plan was even created, let alone submitted to NJDEP. If submitting the wrong plan was a mistake, so be it, that is small compared to WHY the plan was created if NO ONE apparently asked for it. The council should have excoriated Faiella for interupting Keady's questioning of Clarke. It was an insult to the council and citizens. If that is what they had in mind they could have left Clarke in Trenton. Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ~--> Get fast access to your favorite Yahoo! Groups. Make Yahoo! your home page http://us.click.yahoo.com/dpRU5A/wUILAA/yQLSAA/Y2tolB/TM ~-> Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/AsburyPark/ <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[AsburyPark] Re: C-8 Sale Closes - $33+ Million - it takes bold visionaries
"Based upon the pro forma I have seen, the 7% of sales exceeds $11 million and the infrastructure is $4.48 million. All in all its around $33 million for land to build 224 units. Do the math. something like $147,000 per unit of land value. That's what gets me about Asbury Partners, the Council and our redevelopment attorney (Aaron). When the land here has this type of value we are supposed to take $175,000 or $490,000 for the Triangle and streets, which can have 95 units, ON THE BEACH (Ocean Ave closed). If the City does not realize several millions of dollars from the Triangle there should be a recall of Bruno, Loffredo and Sanders. Aaron of course should be fired on the spot." Dan, there are several contributing factors you've not considered. First, according to a certain myopic Bishop, " guys like Sanders, Loffredo, Bruno and Jim Aaron. Very intelligent bunch and way ahead of the curve for recognizing the merits of high denisty condos to bolster the City economy", which I gather means that C8 would likely have remained worthless were it not for their constructing a sweetheart deal for Larry. Secondly, had not Larry painted all of the Pavilions puke yellow and finished them with those ever so cute cartoon images of `our beloved city by the sea', no seriousprofessional developer would ever have considered tackling C8. Finally my friend, it takes bold visionaries in speculative markets as hot as we've seen these last 10 years to even think people might wish to buy condominiums overlooking the ocean, only 35 miles from Manhattan. http://groups.yahoo.com/group/allthingsasbury/message/41 --- In AsburyPark@yahoogroups.com, "dfsavgny" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > I posted a message regarding the recent closing of the C-8 site to > Metro Homes on the new Yahoo forum. Please visit and read the message. > Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ~--> Get fast access to your favorite Yahoo! Groups. Make Yahoo! your home page http://us.click.yahoo.com/dpRU5A/wUILAA/yQLSAA/Y2tolB/TM ~-> Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/AsburyPark/ <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [AsburyPark] Re: C-8 Demolition Question, today's paper
I think Werner has it right, the plan is the plan. The revelation that C-8 is not properly built or would be too costly to make "right" is what's driving the change of plans. We need to make the government of this little city accountable for their actions. There needs to be an outside investigation into this whole mess. - Original Message - From: "wernerapnj" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: Sent: Friday, October 21, 2005 6:58 PM Subject: [AsburyPark] Re: C-8 Demolition Question, today's paper > Dan I urge you to rethink your position of accepting the City's story > that "the wrong plan was submitted" > > As I wrote earlier, There is no evidence to that effect, to the > contrary the preponderence of the evidence is that the correct plan was > submitted and that this is a flim-flam being perpetrated on the public > to benefit the developer. > > Werner > > --- In AsburyPark@yahoogroups.com, "dfsavgny" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: >> ...That is not >> what is at issue here. What is is legality and possible fraud > >> What it does not explain however, is whether the wrong >> plan was given to NJDEP intentionally, and if not, why, when Aaron >> told the Developer that the June plan could not be adopted, the >> Developer did not inform NJDEP. It also doesn;t answer why when the >> City knew it was the wrong plan that it did not contact NJDEP. > > > > > > > > > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ~--> Get fast access to your favorite Yahoo! Groups. Make Yahoo! your home page http://us.click.yahoo.com/dpRU5A/wUILAA/yQLSAA/Y2tolB/TM ~-> Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/AsburyPark/ <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[AsburyPark] Re: C-8 Demolition Question, today's paper
Dan I urge you to rethink your position of accepting the City's story that "the wrong plan was submitted" As I wrote earlier, There is no evidence to that effect, to the contrary the preponderence of the evidence is that the correct plan was submitted and that this is a flim-flam being perpetrated on the public to benefit the developer. Werner --- In AsburyPark@yahoogroups.com, "dfsavgny" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > ...That is not > what is at issue here. What is is legality and possible fraud > What it does not explain however, is whether the wrong > plan was given to NJDEP intentionally, and if not, why, when Aaron > told the Developer that the June plan could not be adopted, the > Developer did not inform NJDEP. It also doesn;t answer why when the > City knew it was the wrong plan that it did not contact NJDEP. Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ~--> Get fast access to your favorite Yahoo! Groups. Make Yahoo! your home page http://us.click.yahoo.com/dpRU5A/wUILAA/yQLSAA/Y2tolB/TM ~-> Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/AsburyPark/ <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[AsburyPark] Re: C-8 Demolition Question, today's paper
--- In AsburyPark@yahoogroups.com, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: > > > > This article gives a very simple version of what happened at that meeting. > > Dan Sciannameo did a great job explaining why the June 5, 2002 Plan should > be followed. > At the meeting Councilmen Johnson, Keady, and Lofferdo seem to be very > concern. > Does anybody even care if C-8 is rebuilt or should the new buildings on that > block conforms with the June 5, 2002 Plan. > Gerry, for the record, I hope the Esperanza gets built. That is not what is at issue here. What is is legality and possible fraud. I did not start this. I can't make believe that I did not see the corpse in the closet. I did and I must say it. If, as I now suspect, that it was NJDEP that required the additional language about demolishing C-8, that explains why the Developer put it in the June plan. That also conforms to the Cty's story that it did not request the language. What it does not explain however, is whether the wrong plan was given to NJDEP intentionally, and if not, why, when Aaron told the Developer that the June plan could not be adopted, the Developer did not inform NJDEP. It also doesn;t answer why when the City knew it was the wrong plan that it did not contact NJDEP. That's why I claim credit for it the other night, not to be boastful, but not to let it appear as if the city approached NJDEP on its own. That was how it was being conveyed and was not how it happened. Finally, if NJDEP did require that language, they should not let the CAFRA permit stand without having that language, which the adopted plan does not according to the city. To have it in there, the plan has to go back to the Planning Board. They all brought this on themselves. I am not persecuting them or trying to stop development regardless of what Nancy Shields puts n her editorials. She was given the scoop on this before and could have broke the story but didn't. It is what it is. No spin. Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ~--> Get fast access to your favorite Yahoo! Groups. Make Yahoo! your home page http://us.click.yahoo.com/dpRU5A/wUILAA/yQLSAA/Y2tolB/TM ~-> Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/AsburyPark/ <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[AsburyPark] Re: C-8 - closer to the mark
"The Casino is the ugliest building ever constructed." I get that you think or believe it behooves you to say that, so this should be no challenge, name your top 10 recently constructed buildings. It would be nice if they were local, but that's probably unfair, give it your best shot. --- In AsburyPark@yahoogroups.com, "bluebishop82" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > The Casino is the ugliest building ever constructed. Warren & Wetmore, > despite other successes, clearly drew it over a liquid lunch. > > --- In AsburyPark@yahoogroups.com, "dfsavgny" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > --- In AsburyPark@yahoogroups.com, "bluebishop82" > > > > > > That's what you get when your planning starts being driven by > > > Nostalgia. Hey, why have one empty, barely used convention center > > > on the boardwalk when we can have two empty, barely used > convention > > > centers on the boardwalk! > > > > > > > Nostalgia is a powerful thing, look at Ocean Grove, Cape May, etc. > Not > > that AP should be that. It isn't nostalgia that pushes the cart for > me > > with the Casino. That is done by its architectural beauty. Not to > > mention that it was designed by Warren and Wetmore. Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ~--> Get fast access to your favorite Yahoo! Groups. Make Yahoo! your home page http://us.click.yahoo.com/dpRU5A/wUILAA/yQLSAA/Y2tolB/TM ~-> Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/AsburyPark/ <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[AsburyPark] Re: C-8 - closer to the mark
--- In AsburyPark@yahoogroups.com, "bluebishop82" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > The Casino is the ugliest building ever constructed. Warren & Wetmore, > despite other successes, clearly drew it over a liquid lunch. > Different strokes for different folks. Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ~--> Get fast access to your favorite Yahoo! Groups. Make Yahoo! your home page http://us.click.yahoo.com/dpRU5A/wUILAA/yQLSAA/Y2tolB/TM ~-> Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/AsburyPark/ <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[AsburyPark] Re: C-8 - closer to the mark
The Casino is the ugliest building ever constructed. Warren & Wetmore, despite other successes, clearly drew it over a liquid lunch. --- In AsburyPark@yahoogroups.com, "dfsavgny" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > --- In AsburyPark@yahoogroups.com, "bluebishop82" > > > > That's what you get when your planning starts being driven by > > Nostalgia. Hey, why have one empty, barely used convention center > > on the boardwalk when we can have two empty, barely used convention > > centers on the boardwalk! > > > > Nostalgia is a powerful thing, look at Ocean Grove, Cape May, etc. Not > that AP should be that. It isn't nostalgia that pushes the cart for me > with the Casino. That is done by its architectural beauty. Not to > mention that it was designed by Warren and Wetmore. Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ~--> Get fast access to your favorite Yahoo! Groups. Make Yahoo! your home page http://us.click.yahoo.com/dpRU5A/wUILAA/yQLSAA/Y2tolB/TM ~-> Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/AsburyPark/ <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[AsburyPark] Re: C-8 - closer to the mark
--- In AsburyPark@yahoogroups.com, "bluebishop82" > > That's what you get when your planning starts being driven by > Nostalgia. Hey, why have one empty, barely used convention center > on the boardwalk when we can have two empty, barely used convention > centers on the boardwalk! > Nostalgia is a powerful thing, look at Ocean Grove, Cape May, etc. Not that AP should be that. It isn't nostalgia that pushes the cart for me with the Casino. That is done by its architectural beauty. Not to mention that it was designed by Warren and Wetmore. Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ~--> Get fast access to your favorite Yahoo! Groups. Make Yahoo! your home page http://us.click.yahoo.com/dpRU5A/wUILAA/yQLSAA/Y2tolB/TM ~-> Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/AsburyPark/ <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[AsburyPark] Re: C-8 - closer to the mark
"I urged him to knock down the Casino and build something spectacular at the site." What you miss is his intention to knockdown the ice rink, that's where the Fishy Mall is to be located and will be but part of his legacy, undoubtedly "something extraordinary", hideously so, and it and crumbling Convention Hall, his puke yellow pavilion and collapsing Howard Johnson's will be the ultimate footnote to Asbury's lost opportunity. "Hey, why have one empty, barely used convention center on the boardwalk when we can have two empty, barely used convention centers on the boardwalk!" It's but part of The Fishy plan, empty halls, pavilions, carousel house, power plant along with everything he can eminent domain, all left empty to be joined, if they're ever built, by empty condominiums; it seems The Fishman needs space in which to grow. --- In AsburyPark@yahoogroups.com, "bluebishop82" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > No Skip, I've actually talked to Larry about just this subject. I > urged him to knock down the Casino and build something spectacular > at the site. I tried to convince him that the site could be his > family's lagacy; an opportunity to have something extraordinary > associated with his efforts here in Asbury Park. > > He wouldn't even consider what I said. Instead, from what I could > gather from what he said, he was bowing to all of you, because you > folks seem to want it restored so badly (still seems funny to me > that those who are most nostalgic for the Casino were never in it). > > That's what you get when your planning starts being driven by > Nostalgia. Hey, why have one empty, barely used convention center > on the boardwalk when we can have two empty, barely used convention > centers on the boardwalk! > > Good Grief. > > > > > --- In AsburyPark@yahoogroups.com, "Skip Bernstein" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > wrote: > > `To me, he wants it to fall into the ocean so he can say "don't > blame > > me, it was an act of God that caused the damage."' > > > > Gary you're a little closer to the mark; I suspect the > BlindBishop's > > having a bit of fun with us, he is after all The Fish's stalking > horse. > > > > > > > > --- In AsburyPark@yahoogroups.com, Lighty <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > > On 9/20/05 4:17 PM, "bluebishop82" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > > > > > > Skip, > > > > > > > > Larry agrees with you on re-building the Casino. He is > against my > > > > idea of knocking it down and putting something better there. > > > > > > > > > > > > > Do you really believe he wants to rebuild the Casino? If so, why > > wouldn't > > > you try doing something to protect it from further decline after > > these past > > > 5 years or so? > > > > > > To me, he wants it to fall into the ocean so he can say "don't > blame > > me, it > > > was an act of God that caused the damage." Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ~--> Get fast access to your favorite Yahoo! Groups. Make Yahoo! your home page http://us.click.yahoo.com/dpRU5A/wUILAA/yQLSAA/Y2tolB/TM ~-> Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/AsburyPark/ <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[AsburyPark] Re: C-8 - closer to the mark
No Skip, I've actually talked to Larry about just this subject. I urged him to knock down the Casino and build something spectacular at the site. I tried to convince him that the site could be his family's lagacy; an opportunity to have something extraordinary associated with his efforts here in Asbury Park. He wouldn't even consider what I said. Instead, from what I could gather from what he said, he was bowing to all of you, because you folks seem to want it restored so badly (still seems funny to me that those who are most nostalgic for the Casino were never in it). That's what you get when your planning starts being driven by Nostalgia. Hey, why have one empty, barely used convention center on the boardwalk when we can have two empty, barely used convention centers on the boardwalk! Good Grief. --- In AsburyPark@yahoogroups.com, "Skip Bernstein" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > `To me, he wants it to fall into the ocean so he can say "don't blame > me, it was an act of God that caused the damage."' > > Gary you're a little closer to the mark; I suspect the BlindBishop's > having a bit of fun with us, he is after all The Fish's stalking horse. > > > > --- In AsburyPark@yahoogroups.com, Lighty <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > On 9/20/05 4:17 PM, "bluebishop82" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > > > > Skip, > > > > > > Larry agrees with you on re-building the Casino. He is against my > > > idea of knocking it down and putting something better there. > > > > > > > > > Do you really believe he wants to rebuild the Casino? If so, why > wouldn't > > you try doing something to protect it from further decline after > these past > > 5 years or so? > > > > To me, he wants it to fall into the ocean so he can say "don't blame > me, it > > was an act of God that caused the damage." Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ~--> Get fast access to your favorite Yahoo! Groups. Make Yahoo! your home page http://us.click.yahoo.com/dpRU5A/wUILAA/yQLSAA/Y2tolB/TM ~-> Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/AsburyPark/ <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[AsburyPark] Re: C-8 - closer to the mark
`To me, he wants it to fall into the ocean so he can say "don't blame me, it was an act of God that caused the damage."' Gary you're a little closer to the mark; I suspect the BlindBishop's having a bit of fun with us, he is after all The Fish's stalking horse. --- In AsburyPark@yahoogroups.com, Lighty <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > On 9/20/05 4:17 PM, "bluebishop82" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > > Skip, > > > > Larry agrees with you on re-building the Casino. He is against my > > idea of knocking it down and putting something better there. > > > > > Do you really believe he wants to rebuild the Casino? If so, why wouldn't > you try doing something to protect it from further decline after these past > 5 years or so? > > To me, he wants it to fall into the ocean so he can say "don't blame me, it > was an act of God that caused the damage." Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ~--> Get fast access to your favorite Yahoo! Groups. Make Yahoo! your home page http://us.click.yahoo.com/dpRU5A/wUILAA/yQLSAA/Y2tolB/TM ~-> Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/AsburyPark/ <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[AsburyPark] Re: C-8 -- Skip and Larry - perfect together.
You know I long said that Larry's some kind of guy. Imagine that The Fish and me agreeing on something. "Now if it seems absurd when I do it to you, I assure you it is just as absurd when you do it to me." Oh contraire, what's good for the BlindBishop's good for the Skipster, but I've gotta tell you I'm more than a bit skeptical. --- In AsburyPark@yahoogroups.com, "bluebishop82" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > Skip, > > Larry agrees with you on re-building the Casino. He is against my > idea of knocking it down and putting something better there. > > So, since you and Larry agree on something, what should I do, accuse > you of being in his pocket? Looking for something from him? Being > a shill for him? Agreeing with everything he has ever said and done? > > Skip and Larry - perfect together. > > Now if it seems absurd when I do it to you, I assure you it is just > as absurd when you do it to me. > > > > --- In AsburyPark@yahoogroups.com, "Skip Bernstein" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > wrote: > > " the Casino. If it is in such disrepair that there exists less > of it > > than more of it, you aren't saving it anyway; you're just > rebuilding > > something new that follows the old form. If you are rebuilding new > > anyway, why stay cuffed by the dead-hand control of our > predecessors? > > We can use the opportunity to employ our own creativity and build > > something even more magnificent today than what used to be there. > It > > is just a matter of believing in ourselves to do better than those > > that came before us. Just a little bravery is all it takes to break > > from the past and be something better." > > > > You're certainly working hard for Fish money, it remains to be seen > > whether he'll ever throw you a bone. Re the Casino, you actually > > believe "there exists less of it than more of it", that today's > > builders and architects can match or exceed "dead-hand control of > our > > predecessors" and that "a little bravery is all it takes to break > from > > the past and be something better"? > > > > I'm aware of the party line of the `3 clown news and world report' > > that only world class design is sufficient for groovy condo Asbury; > > that this is at odds with having The Fish as developer appears to > have > > escaped the attention of your hustler employer, but then I think we > > all know DJ is playing for the long game and he too will have to > wait > > and see whether Larry will ever throw him a bone. > > > > However, you appear to have endless confidence that `new stuff' > beats > > the hell out of old stuff; you're large on facts so how about > > providing a few examples, all I know of your tastes is an > inordinate > > love affair with Monster Trucks. > > > > > > > > --- In AsburyPark@yahoogroups.com, "bluebishop82" > <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > wrote: > > > --- In AsburyPark@yahoogroups.com, "dfsavgny" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > wrote: > > > > > > > Yes, I assume there is a threshold when partial dismantling > becomes > > > > total demolition. I see it in NYC and is the difference in > getting a > > > > New Building permit versus an Alteration. > > > > > > Dan, > > > > > > This is the point I've made in my column about the Palace and > the > > > Casino. If it is in such disrepair that there exists less of it > than > > > more of it, you aren't saving it anyway; you're just rebuilding > > > something new that follows the old form. > > > > > > If you are rebuilding new anyway, why stay cuffed by the dead- > hand > > > control of our predecessors? We can use the opportunity to > employ our > > > own creativity and build something even more magnificent today > than > > > what used to be there. It is just a matter of believing in > ourselves > > > to do better than those that came before us. Just a little > bravery is > > > all it takes to break from the past and be something better. Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ~--> Get fast access to your favorite Yahoo! Groups. Make Yahoo! your home page http://us.click.yahoo.com/dpRU5A/wUILAA/yQLSAA/Y2tolB/TM ~-> Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/AsburyPark/ <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[AsburyPark] Re: C-8
--- In AsburyPark@yahoogroups.com, Lighty <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > Do you really believe he wants to rebuild the Casino? If so, why wouldn't > you try doing something to protect it from further decline after these past > 5 years or so? > > To me, he wants it to fall into the ocean so he can say "don't blame me, it > was an act of God that caused the damage." Rebuild or Restore? If it is the latter, he certainly doesn't want to use his own money to do so. (|) Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ~--> Get fast access to your favorite Yahoo! Groups. Make Yahoo! your home page http://us.click.yahoo.com/dpRU5A/wUILAA/yQLSAA/Y2tolB/TM ~-> Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/AsburyPark/ <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [AsburyPark] Re: C-8
On 9/20/05 4:17 PM, "bluebishop82" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > Skip, > > Larry agrees with you on re-building the Casino. He is against my > idea of knocking it down and putting something better there. > Do you really believe he wants to rebuild the Casino? If so, why wouldn't you try doing something to protect it from further decline after these past 5 years or so? To me, he wants it to fall into the ocean so he can say "don't blame me, it was an act of God that caused the damage." Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ~--> Get fast access to your favorite Yahoo! Groups. Make Yahoo! your home page http://us.click.yahoo.com/dpRU5A/wUILAA/yQLSAA/Y2tolB/TM ~-> Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/AsburyPark/ <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[AsburyPark] Re: C-8
Skip, Larry agrees with you on re-building the Casino. He is against my idea of knocking it down and putting something better there. So, since you and Larry agree on something, what should I do, accuse you of being in his pocket? Looking for something from him? Being a shill for him? Agreeing with everything he has ever said and done? Skip and Larry - perfect together. Now if it seems absurd when I do it to you, I assure you it is just as absurd when you do it to me. --- In AsburyPark@yahoogroups.com, "Skip Bernstein" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > " the Casino. If it is in such disrepair that there exists less of it > than more of it, you aren't saving it anyway; you're just rebuilding > something new that follows the old form. If you are rebuilding new > anyway, why stay cuffed by the dead-hand control of our predecessors? > We can use the opportunity to employ our own creativity and build > something even more magnificent today than what used to be there. It > is just a matter of believing in ourselves to do better than those > that came before us. Just a little bravery is all it takes to break > from the past and be something better." > > You're certainly working hard for Fish money, it remains to be seen > whether he'll ever throw you a bone. Re the Casino, you actually > believe "there exists less of it than more of it", that today's > builders and architects can match or exceed "dead-hand control of our > predecessors" and that "a little bravery is all it takes to break from > the past and be something better"? > > I'm aware of the party line of the `3 clown news and world report' > that only world class design is sufficient for groovy condo Asbury; > that this is at odds with having The Fish as developer appears to have > escaped the attention of your hustler employer, but then I think we > all know DJ is playing for the long game and he too will have to wait > and see whether Larry will ever throw him a bone. > > However, you appear to have endless confidence that `new stuff' beats > the hell out of old stuff; you're large on facts so how about > providing a few examples, all I know of your tastes is an inordinate > love affair with Monster Trucks. > > > > --- In AsburyPark@yahoogroups.com, "bluebishop82" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > wrote: > > --- In AsburyPark@yahoogroups.com, "dfsavgny" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > > > > Yes, I assume there is a threshold when partial dismantling becomes > > > total demolition. I see it in NYC and is the difference in getting a > > > New Building permit versus an Alteration. > > > > Dan, > > > > This is the point I've made in my column about the Palace and the > > Casino. If it is in such disrepair that there exists less of it than > > more of it, you aren't saving it anyway; you're just rebuilding > > something new that follows the old form. > > > > If you are rebuilding new anyway, why stay cuffed by the dead- hand > > control of our predecessors? We can use the opportunity to employ our > > own creativity and build something even more magnificent today than > > what used to be there. It is just a matter of believing in ourselves > > to do better than those that came before us. Just a little bravery is > > all it takes to break from the past and be something better. Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ~--> Get fast access to your favorite Yahoo! Groups. Make Yahoo! your home page http://us.click.yahoo.com/dpRU5A/wUILAA/yQLSAA/Y2tolB/TM ~-> Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/AsburyPark/ <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[AsburyPark] Re: C-8
" the Casino. If it is in such disrepair that there exists less of it than more of it, you aren't saving it anyway; you're just rebuilding something new that follows the old form. If you are rebuilding new anyway, why stay cuffed by the dead-hand control of our predecessors? We can use the opportunity to employ our own creativity and build something even more magnificent today than what used to be there. It is just a matter of believing in ourselves to do better than those that came before us. Just a little bravery is all it takes to break from the past and be something better." You're certainly working hard for Fish money, it remains to be seen whether he'll ever throw you a bone. Re the Casino, you actually believe "there exists less of it than more of it", that today's builders and architects can match or exceed "dead-hand control of our predecessors" and that "a little bravery is all it takes to break from the past and be something better"? I'm aware of the party line of the `3 clown news and world report' that only world class design is sufficient for groovy condo Asbury; that this is at odds with having The Fish as developer appears to have escaped the attention of your hustler employer, but then I think we all know DJ is playing for the long game and he too will have to wait and see whether Larry will ever throw him a bone. However, you appear to have endless confidence that `new stuff' beats the hell out of old stuff; you're large on facts so how about providing a few examples, all I know of your tastes is an inordinate love affair with Monster Trucks. --- In AsburyPark@yahoogroups.com, "bluebishop82" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > --- In AsburyPark@yahoogroups.com, "dfsavgny" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > > Yes, I assume there is a threshold when partial dismantling becomes > > total demolition. I see it in NYC and is the difference in getting a > > New Building permit versus an Alteration. > > Dan, > > This is the point I've made in my column about the Palace and the > Casino. If it is in such disrepair that there exists less of it than > more of it, you aren't saving it anyway; you're just rebuilding > something new that follows the old form. > > If you are rebuilding new anyway, why stay cuffed by the dead-hand > control of our predecessors? We can use the opportunity to employ our > own creativity and build something even more magnificent today than > what used to be there. It is just a matter of believing in ourselves > to do better than those that came before us. Just a little bravery is > all it takes to break from the past and be something better. Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ~--> Get fast access to your favorite Yahoo! Groups. Make Yahoo! your home page http://us.click.yahoo.com/dpRU5A/wUILAA/yQLSAA/Y2tolB/TM ~-> Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/AsburyPark/ <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[AsburyPark] Re: C-8
--- In AsburyPark@yahoogroups.com, "wernerapnj" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > Whoa! I understand a lot more than the average (insert name) around > here. Let's not get testy. :-) That's the problem with cyberspace, unless you make use of symbols and caps, etc. you cannot convey your demeanor. Me testy? Here's 3 smileys for you. :) :) :) (|) That's me mooning you in cyberspace. I'll send you what I got privately. Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ~--> Get fast access to your favorite Yahoo! Groups. Make Yahoo! your home page http://us.click.yahoo.com/dpRU5A/wUILAA/yQLSAA/Y2tolB/TM ~-> Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/AsburyPark/ <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[AsburyPark] Re: C-8
--- In AsburyPark@yahoogroups.com, "dfsavgny" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > Why do you have trouble understanding this? Whoa! I understand a lot more than the average (insert name) around here. Let's not get testy. :-) >... I know the plan accounts > for both, but if demolished it can't be built to its existing > height. The amendment would be to AMEND that fact, i.e., "okay > we're demolishing it and can't built it to 16 stories, but > please let us do it anyway." Are we clear? Thank you, now you have made your concern clear. :-) > $PSF? Depends on what you use for average size. I used 1,200 sf. > Could be larger. But 1,200 sf X 224 = 268,800 sf. $18 million / > 268,800 sf = $66.97/sf. That seems like steel for an entire > building (every sf) not just portions. Thanks again, Where did you see the $18M figure for steel, I'd like to archive that away. Consider that the existing steel needs to be refurbished, they would essentially be doing an "entire building" The cost savings is in not having to pay for the demolition and disposal of existing material in addition to building an entire building. Werner Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ~--> Get fast access to your favorite Yahoo! Groups. Make Yahoo! your home page http://us.click.yahoo.com/dpRU5A/wUILAA/yQLSAA/Y2tolB/TM ~-> Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/AsburyPark/ <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[AsburyPark] Re: C-8
--- In AsburyPark@yahoogroups.com, "wernerapnj" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > You, and others, keep refering to the potential need for an amendment > to the plan. That exactly are you thinking would be the deviation? > The plan accounts for both options, build out or build new. Neither > would trigger an amendment. Why do you have trouble understanding this? I know the plan accounts for both, but if demolished it can't be built to its existing height. The amendment would be to AMEND that fact, i.e., "okay we're demolishing it and can't built it to 16 stories, but please let us do it anyway." Are we clear? To amend the even if you demolish it you can still build higher. > How are you calculating this? The $18M (if correct) is not just for > partial demolition/reconstruction. The currently existing tower needs > to be finished to 16 floors, the second tower needs to be built to 10 > floors, the "floors" themselves need to be installed, etc, etc. $PSF? Depends on what you use for average size. I used 1,200 sf. Could be larger. But 1,200 sf X 224 = 268,800 sf. $18 million / 268,800 sf = $66.97/sf. That seems like steel for an entire building (every sf) not just portions. Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ~--> Get fast access to your favorite Yahoo! Groups. Make Yahoo! your home page http://us.click.yahoo.com/dpRU5A/wUILAA/yQLSAA/Y2tolB/TM ~-> Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/AsburyPark/ <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[AsburyPark] Re: C-8
--- In AsburyPark@yahoogroups.com, "dfsavgny" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: >... The original issue is > the rumour that C-8 may be torn down. It is clear that if that is > so it cannot be built to its exisitng bulk. That would likely > result in a request for an amendment to the plan. You, and others, keep refering to the potential need for an amendment to the plan. That exactly are you thinking would be the deviation? The plan accounts for both options, build out or build new. Neither would trigger an amendment. ... > In the case of C-8, I guess only time will tell, however, based > upon the budgeted amount for steel, which $18 million and comes > to $50-$70 a buildable foot, that seems like an awlful lot of > steel for "partial demolition." How are you calculating this? The $18M (if correct) is not just for partial demolition/reconstruction. The currently existing tower needs to be finished to 16 floors, the second tower needs to be built to 10 floors, the "floors" themselves need to be installed, etc, etc. ... All I am saying is that if in fact an amendment is > requested which puts more money in someone's pocket, it is > about thime the City asks for some of that money in return. > A developer only asks for an amendment because it increases its > profit. Its all a dollar and cents game whether in sale prices, > more area, cost or time. Let's not fool oursleves. I'm on the same page regarding this issue ! Werner Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ~--> Get fast access to your favorite Yahoo! Groups. Make Yahoo! your home page http://us.click.yahoo.com/dpRU5A/wUILAA/yQLSAA/Y2tolB/TM ~-> Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/AsburyPark/ <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[AsburyPark] Re: C-8
--- In AsburyPark@yahoogroups.com, "bluebishop82" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > This is the point I've made in my column about the Palace and the > Casino. If it is in such disrepair that there exists less of it than > more of it, you aren't saving it anyway; you're just rebuilding > something new that follows the old form. > > If you are rebuilding new anyway, why stay cuffed by the dead-hand > control of our predecessors? We can use the opportunity to employ our > own creativity and build something even more magnificent today than > what used to be there. It is just a matter of believing in ourselves > to do better than those that came before us. Just a little bravery is > all it takes to break from the past and be something better. Not that I disagree with you (I'll take it on a case-by-case basis), but I think I am saying something different here. The original issue is the rumour that C-8 may be torn down. It is clear that if that is so it cannot be built to its exisitng bulk. That would likely result in a request for an amendment to the plan. I said would should get something in return since the land and project under the two scenarios would have drastically different values. Werner indicates that it will not be torn down "completely" but that sections will require demolition. My response was that at some point, a "partial tear down" becomes a demolition in essence. In NYC there is a threshold and I think it is pretty low, that in some cases all you have to leave is the foundation and one wall. By doing so, you can rebuild a new building the same size as the pre-existing building which under then-current zoning regs was considered overbuilt. Even in NYC that is somewhat contradictory since an overbuilt building (considered a legally non-complying use) is more than 75% destroyed by fire, flood, etc., cannot be rebuilt. In the case of C-8, I guess only time will tell, however, based upon the budgeted amount for steel, which $18 million and comes to $50-$70 a buildable foot, that seems like an awlful lot of steel for "partial demolition." All I am saying is that if in fact an amendment is requested which puts more money in someone's pocket, it is about thime the City asks for some of that money in return. A developer only asks for an amendment because it increases its profit. Its all a dollar and cents game whether in sale prices, more area, cost or time. Let's not fool oursleves. Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ~--> Get fast access to your favorite Yahoo! Groups. Make Yahoo! your home page http://us.click.yahoo.com/dpRU5A/wUILAA/yQLSAA/Y2tolB/TM ~-> Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/AsburyPark/ <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[AsburyPark] Re: C-8
--- In AsburyPark@yahoogroups.com, "dfsavgny" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > Yes, I assume there is a threshold when partial dismantling becomes > total demolition. I see it in NYC and is the difference in getting a > New Building permit versus an Alteration. Dan, This is the point I've made in my column about the Palace and the Casino. If it is in such disrepair that there exists less of it than more of it, you aren't saving it anyway; you're just rebuilding something new that follows the old form. If you are rebuilding new anyway, why stay cuffed by the dead-hand control of our predecessors? We can use the opportunity to employ our own creativity and build something even more magnificent today than what used to be there. It is just a matter of believing in ourselves to do better than those that came before us. Just a little bravery is all it takes to break from the past and be something better. Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ~--> Get fast access to your favorite Yahoo! Groups. Make Yahoo! your home page http://us.click.yahoo.com/dpRU5A/wUILAA/yQLSAA/Y2tolB/TM ~-> Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/AsburyPark/ <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[AsburyPark] Re: C-8
--- In AsburyPark@yahoogroups.com, "wernerapnj" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > - The reversion to the 'new' plan is in the event that the entire > building can not be rehabilitated. > - The approvals are within the envelope of the plan except that 12 > foot extensions may be build on the north and south facades. > - The demolition is selective for the southeast section which > suffered from exposure more than the other sections. > - The budget is for the rehabilitation, repair and completion of the > superstructure > > Hope that helps, Werner Yes, I assume there is a threshold when partial dismantling becomes total demolition. I see it in NYC and is the difference in getting a New Building permit versus an Alteration. Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ~--> Get fast access to your favorite Yahoo! Groups. Make Yahoo! your home page http://us.click.yahoo.com/dpRU5A/wUILAA/yQLSAA/Y2tolB/TM ~-> Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/AsburyPark/ <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[AsburyPark] Re: C-8
--- In AsburyPark@yahoogroups.com, "dfsavgny" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: ... The reference to > Block 161 was in the land use section. Pretty confusing, but not > surprising considering this city. In any event, I assume the > Planning Board approved the 224 units assuming the structure > stays up. If it doesn't and needs to come down, how can the > Planning Board approve something that contradicts the underlying > blueprint (plan) with amendation? The structure may be salvageable, > as we all thought, but there are rumours that the developers > are shopping for demo estimates. Also, the constrcution budget > I saw showed $18 million for steel. > Where's that going? I guess time will tell. It helps to have been through all the hearings. - 224 units is the max, it can be less. The two towers can be 10 and 16 floors max, they can be less. - The reversion to the 'new' plan is in the event that the entire building can not be rehabilitated. - The approvals are within the envelope of the plan except that 12 foot extensions may be build on the north and south facades. - The demolition is selective for the southeast section which suffered from exposure more than the other sections. - The budget is for the rehabilitation, repair and completion of the superstructure Hope that helps, Werner Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ~--> Get fast access to your favorite Yahoo! Groups. Make Yahoo! your home page http://us.click.yahoo.com/dpRU5A/wUILAA/yQLSAA/Y2tolB/TM ~-> Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/AsburyPark/ <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[AsburyPark] Re: C-8
--- In AsburyPark@yahoogroups.com, "wernerapnj" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > Dan, you've misinterpreted the chart on that page, it is not a > controlling part of the plan, it is only an example of how the > project might be built out. > > The height controls are elsewhere in the document. The C-8 site, if > leveled would follow the same pattern as the rest on the blocks. 3 > floors at Ocean Ave, 4 floors at mid block and 8 floors at Kingsley > St (maximums, could be less) That was my original post (3,4 & 8 stories) but that is from the chart showing comparison of the 1990-91 and 2002 plans. The reference to Block 161 was in the land use section. Pretty confusing, but not surprising considering this city. In any event, I assume the Planning Board approved the 224 units assuming the structure stays up. If it doesn't and needs to come down, how can the Planning Board approve something that contradicts the underlying blueprint (plan) with amendation? The structure may be salvageable, as we all thought, but there are rumours that the developers are shopping for demo estimates. Also, the constrcution budget I saw showed $18 million for steel. Where's that going? I guess time will tell. If we see it come down and don't hear of amendments to the plan questions need to be asked. Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ~--> Get fast access to your favorite Yahoo! Groups. Make Yahoo! your home page http://us.click.yahoo.com/dpRU5A/wUILAA/yQLSAA/Y2tolB/TM ~-> Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/AsburyPark/ <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[AsburyPark] Re: C-8
--- In AsburyPark@yahoogroups.com, "dfsavgny" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > I have uploaded another page from the plan that shows if C- > 8 (Block 176) is demolished, then it can only be built to the height > limits specified for Block 161, which are 2 and 4 stories. ... (calculation of units, etc) Dan, you've misinterpreted the chart on that page, it is not a controlling part of the plan, it is only an example of how the project might be built out. The height controls are elsewhere in the document. The C-8 site, if leveled would follow the same pattern as the rest on the blocks. 3 floors at Ocean Ave, 4 floors at mid block and 8 floors at Kingsley St (maximums, could be less) Werner Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ~--> Get fast access to your favorite Yahoo! Groups. Make Yahoo! your home page http://us.click.yahoo.com/dpRU5A/wUILAA/yQLSAA/Y2tolB/TM ~-> Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/AsburyPark/ <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
