[AsburyPark] Re: validity of the city's claim regarding a riparian grant
--- In AsburyPark@yahoogroups.com, "wernerapnj" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > > Right you are, I tend to think in present terms regarding the plan. > The plan we have = current plan...The original plan = 1991 plan. > > I continue to believe the current plan was not arrived at legally. > > Werner > Well it certainly wasn't adopted pursuant to NJ statutes. I think that has been proven. The city can't answer the question. It could be overturned on that point, but don't know if it should. With a willing council the current plan could be amended to have the best of both worlds. Everything could be accommodated, Fasano developing and saving 4th Ave block, DePetro finishing Jersey apts, fair prices/or infill for condemned properties, etc. Fishman would make even more money. As you said, in return, it's nothing to add a couple of floors here and there. As with regard to asano and DePetro, these guys would start tomorrow. If the city was only willing to use the power it has. Aaron emasculates the Council. Fishman ill negotiate. Aaron - Weldo - Faiella. Same club. Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/AsburyPark/ <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[AsburyPark] Re: validity of the city's claim regarding a riparian grant
--- In AsburyPark@yahoogroups.com, "dfsavgny" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > No to the 1991 plan, I can't find it. You said in your post > the "original" plan. Since 1984 was superceded by 1987, and the > latter by 1991, the "original" is 1984, or at least that is what one > would reasonably assume by that use. Next time use the yar of the > plan as a modifier. The 1984 plan shows both sites being developed. > Right you are, I tend to think in present terms regarding the plan. The plan we have = current plan...The original plan = 1991 plan. I continue to believe the current plan was not arrived at legally. Werner Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ~--> See what's inside the new Yahoo! Groups email. http://us.click.yahoo.com/2pRQfA/bOaOAA/yQLSAA/Y2tolB/TM ~-> Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/AsburyPark/ <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[AsburyPark] Re: validity of the city's claim regarding a riparian grant
--- In AsburyPark@yahoogroups.com, "wernerapnj" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > Dan, > > It appears that you are making the same error that was was made by the Council and > others when the Carabetta bankruptcy was settled. That is, using the wrong plan. The > 1984 Plan is irrelevent as it was superceded by the 1987 Plan which was then superceded > by the 1991 Plan. > > The 1991 Plan is the only document what carries any legal significance when comparing > what we have now 'After Fishman' (AF) versus 'Before Fishman' (BF). > > The City/Fishman/etc were obligated under land use and redevlopment law to implement > the 1991 Plan. That document was the one legally in force at the time of the > redevlelopment rights transfer. > > To determine what the intent of redevelopment was you need to compare the 1991 > development controls to what we have today. I'm looking for it in my stack of paper. Do > you have an electronic version of that ? > > Werner > No to the 1991 plan, I can't find it. You said in your post the "original" plan. Since 1984 was superceded by 1987, and the latter by 1991, the "original" is 1984, or at least that is what one would reasonably assume by that use. Next time use the yar of the plan as a modifier. The 1984 plan shows both sites being developed. Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ~--> Yahoo! Groups gets a make over. See the new email design. http://us.click.yahoo.com/XISQkA/lOaOAA/yQLSAA/Y2tolB/TM ~-> Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/AsburyPark/ <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[AsburyPark] Re: validity of the city's claim regarding a riparian grant
--- In AsburyPark@yahoogroups.com, "dfsavgny" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > Check the 1984 plan I sent you. It's around page 62 or so. The map > shows high density residential on both the Marine Grill (probably the > portion that goes west of OA) and the Triangle. > Dan, It appears that you are making the same error that was was made by the Council and others when the Carabetta bankruptcy was settled. That is, using the wrong plan. The 1984 Plan is irrelevent as it was superceded by the 1987 Plan which was then superceded by the 1991 Plan. The 1991 Plan is the only document what carries any legal significance when comparing what we have now 'After Fishman' (AF) versus 'Before Fishman' (BF). The City/Fishman/etc were obligated under land use and redevlopment law to implement the 1991 Plan. That document was the one legally in force at the time of the redevlelopment rights transfer. To determine what the intent of redevelopment was you need to compare the 1991 development controls to what we have today. I'm looking for it in my stack of paper. Do you have an electronic version of that ? Werner Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ~--> Great things are happening at Yahoo! Groups. See the new email design. http://us.click.yahoo.com/TISQkA/hOaOAA/yQLSAA/Y2tolB/TM ~-> Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/AsburyPark/ <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[AsburyPark] Re: validity of the city's claim regarding a riparian grant
--- In AsburyPark@yahoogroups.com, "wernerapnj" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > Dan, The "real" Marine Grill site, the one East of Ocean avenue at the > foot of Deal Lake, was not even part of the original redevelopment plan. > > Recall that the eastern boundry of the Redevelopment Area is Ocean > Avenue. Everything east of Ocean Ave was Public Property and was > designated a rehabilitation area. > > Condos east of O.A. was never part of the vision. Recall also that the > redevelopment area boundries were incorrectly transcribed early on and > that is why the triangle came to be refered to as the "Marine Grill" > site. > > With regard to the "Triangle" I beleive that it too was not slated for > development. Reason being that it is also Public Property.. I will > check my documents. > > Werner > Check the 1984 plan I sent you. It's around page 62 or so. The map shows high density residential on both the Marine Grill (probably the portion that goes west of OA) and the Triangle. Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/AsburyPark/ <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[AsburyPark] Re: validity of the city's claim regarding a riparian grant
--- In AsburyPark@yahoogroups.com, "dfsavgny" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > I think the 1984 plan envisioned high density residential on both the > triangle and marine grill sites. Dan, The "real" Marine Grill site, the one East of Ocean avenue at the foot of Deal Lake, was not even part of the original redevelopment plan. Recall that the eastern boundry of the Redevelopment Area is Ocean Avenue. Everything east of Ocean Ave was Public Property and was designated a rehabilitation area. Condos east of O.A. was never part of the vision. Recall also that the redevelopment area boundries were incorrectly transcribed early on and that is why the triangle came to be refered to as the "Marine Grill" site. With regard to the "Triangle" I beleive that it too was not slated for development. Reason being that it is also Public Property.. I will check my documents. Werner Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ~--> Something is new at Yahoo! Groups. Check out the enhanced email design. http://us.click.yahoo.com/SISQkA/gOaOAA/yQLSAA/Y2tolB/TM ~-> Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/AsburyPark/ <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[AsburyPark] Re: validity of the city's claim regarding a riparian grant
--- In AsburyPark@yahoogroups.com, "wernerapnj" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > The Triangle is clearly visible in the second image. What most people do not realize is that > the parcel was never developed or contemplated for development. it has, as far as I can > determined, been public property. Another example of the lack of research and planning in > this redevelopment project. > > Werner > I think the 1984 plan envisioned high density residential on both the triangle and marine grill sites. Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ~--> See what's inside the new Yahoo! Groups email. http://us.click.yahoo.com/2pRQfA/bOaOAA/yQLSAA/Y2tolB/TM ~-> Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/AsburyPark/ <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[AsburyPark] Re: validity of the city's claim regarding a riparian grant
--- In AsburyPark@yahoogroups.com, "oakdorf" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > -got to back even further to the mid 70's when the first deal to sell the boardwalk was > hatched to a guy from Red bank named robert Oberst or something close. I don't have docs, > but perhaps werner could help pin down the time frame - 76-78 around there. > it was in the early 80s he and his partners wanted to redevelop entire bdwlk area, put on public display in the old senior center, his original renderings were not that bad, was thrown out not sure think kramer was gone fiorentino mayor, supposedly, allegedly, not saying its the truth would'nt kick back hence we got caarabretta Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ~--> Yahoo! Groups gets a make over. See the new email design. http://us.click.yahoo.com/XISQkA/lOaOAA/yQLSAA/Y2tolB/TM ~-> Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/AsburyPark/ <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[AsburyPark] Re: validity of the city's claim regarding a riparian grant
--- In AsburyPark@yahoogroups.com, "oakdorf" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > from Peter lucia's amzing ap site: > > http://homepage.mac.com/peterlucia/noweverthen/asbury/ap2fold/ap2.31.html > > the old triangle and marine grill. > The Triangle is clearly visible in the second image. What most people do not realize is that the parcel was never developed or contemplated for development. it has, as far as I can determined, been public property. Another example of the lack of research and planning in this redevelopment project. Werner Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ~--> Yahoo! Groups gets a make over. See the new email design. http://us.click.yahoo.com/XISQkA/lOaOAA/yQLSAA/Y2tolB/TM ~-> Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/AsburyPark/ <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[AsburyPark] Re: validity of the city's claim regarding a riparian grant
--- In AsburyPark@yahoogroups.com, "oakdorf" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > -somewhere there was a once some proposals to develop the marine grill site. > At some point > in time, the DEP and or the city denied the proposal. I'll think about it. > Maybe it wound up in > the shredder. > The project was for the construction of a Holiday Inn. Werner Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ~--> Something is new at Yahoo! Groups. Check out the enhanced email design. http://us.click.yahoo.com/SISQkA/gOaOAA/yQLSAA/Y2tolB/TM ~-> Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/AsburyPark/ <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[AsburyPark] Re: validity of the city's claim regarding a riparian grant
--- In AsburyPark@yahoogroups.com, "oakdorf" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > the 2002 agreement and the master plan don't even agree over the marine grill site. > > Besides, in any other town, as it should be here - this is WETLANDS. Take the example from > Shark River and other little piece of water - 300' from the water THEN start your setbacks. > The Triangle is not wetlands Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ~--> Something is new at Yahoo! Groups. Check out the enhanced email design. http://us.click.yahoo.com/SISQkA/gOaOAA/yQLSAA/Y2tolB/TM ~-> Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/AsburyPark/ <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[AsburyPark] Re: validity of the city's claim regarding a riparian grant
-got to back even further to the mid 70's when the first deal to sell the boardwalk was hatched to a guy from Red bank named robert Oberst or something close. I don't have docs, but perhaps werner could help pin down the time frame - 76-78 around there. Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ~--> See what's inside the new Yahoo! Groups email. http://us.click.yahoo.com/2pRQfA/bOaOAA/yQLSAA/Y2tolB/TM ~-> Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/AsburyPark/ <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[AsburyPark] Re: validity of the city's claim regarding a riparian grant
the 2002 agreement and the master plan don't even agree over the marine grill site. Besides, in any other town, as it should be here - this is WETLANDS. Take the example from Shark River and other little piece of water - 300' from the water THEN start your setbacks. Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ~--> Yahoo! Groups gets a make over. See the new email design. http://us.click.yahoo.com/XISQkA/lOaOAA/yQLSAA/Y2tolB/TM ~-> Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/AsburyPark/ <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[AsburyPark] Re: validity of the city's claim regarding a riparian grant
--- In AsburyPark@yahoogroups.com, "oakdorf" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > -somewhere there was a once some proposals to develop the marine grill site. At some point > in time, the DEP and or the city denied the proposal. I'll think about it. Maybe it wound up in > the shredder. > I have it, it is in the 1984 WRP which I just found on line today. It specifically says that it will attempt to relieve the state's claim on the Marine Grill site, which it defines as both the Marine Grill and the Triangle. In 1985 the city and state entered into the settlement. Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ~--> See what's inside the new Yahoo! Groups email. http://us.click.yahoo.com/2pRQfA/bOaOAA/yQLSAA/Y2tolB/TM ~-> Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/AsburyPark/ <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[AsburyPark] Re: validity of the city's claim regarding a riparian grant
--- In AsburyPark@yahoogroups.com, "wernerapnj" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > --- In AsburyPark@yahoogroups.com, "dfsavgny" wrote: > > > There is going to be consequences to lying to the public > > if that is what occurred. > > HA, HAHA, HAHAHA, AAA, ROTFL, LOL > > No consequences yet to the many lies and misrepresentations handed to the public regarding > the entire Redevelopment. > > Sorry I just needed a laugh, as i'm usually quite depressed over the "Replacement" of this > great City. > > werner > You're excused and deserve a laugh. But this might be different. Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ~--> See what's inside the new Yahoo! Groups email. http://us.click.yahoo.com/2pRQfA/bOaOAA/yQLSAA/Y2tolB/TM ~-> Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/AsburyPark/ <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[AsburyPark] Re: validity of the city's claim regarding a riparian grant
open space map, 2005: http://logan.west21.com/coap/MasterPlan/2005NovDraft/maps/ RecreationOpenSpace_maps.pdf Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ~--> Something is new at Yahoo! Groups. Check out the enhanced email design. http://us.click.yahoo.com/SISQkA/gOaOAA/yQLSAA/Y2tolB/TM ~-> Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/AsburyPark/ <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[AsburyPark] Re: validity of the city's claim regarding a riparian grant
from Peter lucia's amzing ap site: http://homepage.mac.com/peterlucia/noweverthen/asbury/ap2fold/ap2.31.html the old triangle and marine grill. Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ~--> Yahoo! Groups gets a make over. See the new email design. http://us.click.yahoo.com/XISQkA/lOaOAA/yQLSAA/Y2tolB/TM ~-> Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/AsburyPark/ <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[AsburyPark] Re: validity of the city's claim regarding a riparian grant
-somewhere there was a once some proposals to develop the marine grill site. At some point in time, the DEP and or the city denied the proposal. I'll think about it. Maybe it wound up in the shredder. Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ~--> Yahoo! Groups gets a make over. See the new email design. http://us.click.yahoo.com/XISQkA/lOaOAA/yQLSAA/Y2tolB/TM ~-> Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/AsburyPark/ <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[AsburyPark] Re: validity of the city's claim regarding a riparian grant
--- In AsburyPark@yahoogroups.com, "dfsavgny" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > There is going to be consequences to lying to the public > if that is what occurred. HA, HAHA, HAHAHA, AAA, ROTFL, LOL No consequences yet to the many lies and misrepresentations handed to the public regarding the entire Redevelopment. Sorry I just needed a laugh, as i'm usually quite depressed over the "Replacement" of this great City. werner Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ~--> Yahoo! Groups gets a make over. See the new email design. http://us.click.yahoo.com/XISQkA/lOaOAA/yQLSAA/Y2tolB/TM ~-> Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/AsburyPark/ <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[AsburyPark] Re: validity of the city's claim regarding a riparian grant
--- In AsburyPark@yahoogroups.com, "oakdorf" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > > Did any of the appraisals note that in their report of the triangle. > Are you kidding? They didn't even include the street vacation areas which the sales agreement clearly defines as enlarging the premises. In the end, they didn't appraise the subject property. They could have had $50,000-$100,000 in services for free. Whatever it took for me to get money out of Partners. In the end their egos got in the way, and we all pay for it. There should be a revolution in this city over what is going on with the Triangle. It is as bad as coming in your house and stealing your furniture and jewels. The cards are stacked against the citizens of this city. We have a redevelopment attorney that works to the benfit of the master developer and a majority on the council that simply plays ball with him out of ignorance or complicity. Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ~--> Check out the new improvements in Yahoo! Groups email. http://us.click.yahoo.com/6pRQfA/fOaOAA/yQLSAA/Y2tolB/TM ~-> Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/AsburyPark/ <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[AsburyPark] Re: validity of the city's claim regarding a riparian grant
--- In AsburyPark@yahoogroups.com, "oakdorf" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > Dan, > > That "problem" may have impacted the original plan to build on the Marine Grill site. I just > don't remember the details. I was a still a dumb kid then working on getting married. > > So you mean to say that in effect, The triangle comes with a beach (privatized) as well? > > Did any of the appraisals note that in their report of the triangle. > > The shifting of a vote date is nothing new in AP politics. From what I always heard, that was > the way to do it. Do it enough times, then no one shows up. > What I am saying is that it appears that the riparian grant is on the Marine Grill site and not the Triangle. In fact, the affidavit from NJDEP's engineer (for the settlement in court) delineated the grant to cover only a portion (27%) of the Marine Grill site as tidelands which was vested in the State. The balance (73%) was designated as uplands with title vesting in the City. The engineer simply put the wrong Block/Lot ID on the parcel, but the map clearly shows it NOT to be the Triangle. I have also seen a letter from a local engineering firm who is a consultant to the developer reaching the same conclusion as I do. I believe the City had these documents and should have also reached the same conclusion. I am contacting DEP just to make sure that I am right and if I am, then the hammer will drop. There is going to be consequences to lying to the public if that is what occurred. Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ~--> Check out the new improvements in Yahoo! Groups email. http://us.click.yahoo.com/6pRQfA/fOaOAA/yQLSAA/Y2tolB/TM ~-> Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/AsburyPark/ <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
