[SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Re: SB3 + high end DAC versus high end CD Player?
Can I suggest that you/we read up on correlated vs. uncorrelated jitter as they are different beasts... Philodox - what I am saying is that bass solidity (well defined, easy to listen to) is easily damaged by jitter. One of the most commonly heard improvements is "better" bass when jitter is significantly reduced. -- Phil Leigh Phil Leigh's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=85 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=24670 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
[SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Re: digital room correction
mgraves Wrote: > ...and a significant disadvantage as wellthe processed files would > likely be unsuitable as a source for transcoding to MP3 in support of a > portable device. > > I'd probably end up keeping unprocessed files, processed files, and > MP3s in your library. > > Michael You could do that, but actually I didn't mean that the processing would happen first and produce a processed version of your library, but instead that the computer would simply do the processing more or less as you listened (that's what I meant by faster than real time). So that way you could dynamically adjust the filter if you had a reason to, not to mention many other possibilities. For example, you might want to filter multiple channels of audio while watching a movie in surround sound, and that would be very easy to add to a computer-based implementation like this, and very hard to add to a harware one like TacT. -- opaqueice opaqueice's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=4234 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=24519 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
[SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Re: SB3 + high end DAC versus high end CD Player?
Robin Bowes Wrote: > opaqueice wrote: > > Robin Bowes Wrote: > >> Please read up on what jitter is and how it can and does have a > >> spectrum > >> related to the music. > >> > > > > I have read quite a lot, and I think I have a decent understanding > of > > jitter. Nothing I have read has indicated that the jitter spectrum > > should be harmonically related to the original analogue signal. On > the > > contrary, many people mention specifically that it is not, and cite > that > > as the reason jitter sounds so bad. Here's an excellent example: > > > >> These sidebands around the signal being decoded aren't harmonically > >> related to the signal, making them particularly unpleasant. > > > > from http://www.stereophile.com/reference/1093jitter/ . I recommend > > you take a look at figure 4 of that reference, and then explain to > me > > how the spectrum of that noise has anything whatsoever to do with > the > > harmonic content of the music. > > Please read what I actually wrote. > Well, actually I did read what you wrote, and just did again... and again, I ask you - why would jitter "have a spectrum related to the music" as you claim? Maybe this exchange would be more interesting if you would actually back up what you're claiming. I'm not saying this can't happen, and I'm certainly not an expert on this, but I've never read anything which says this - in fact just the contrary. Furthermore it makes little sense logically, unless perhaps there is some effect where the analogue part of the audio path induces jitter in the digital signal. reeve_mike Wrote: > > The above statement refers specifically to the numbers in the example > given in the text. > > If one chose the right numbers one could make them related, see the > formula in Footnote 5 of the article. > Of course they could be related coincidentally, but it would be just that - coincidence. It's as someone said earlier, like claiming getting a book wet would obscure only the R's and no other letters... I agree about subjectivity, but I think one can learn a lot examining possible causes for what people hear. -- opaqueice opaqueice's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=4234 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=24670 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
[SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Re: Best Hard Drive For Music Quality?
My employer manufactures and sells broadcast graphics systems. Many of our systems have attached RAID 5 arrays in support of video clip record/playback capability. These run from 144 GB to >1 TB. Because of very high bandwidth requirements we can only use Seagate 15,000 RPM SCSI drives. For boot drives we tend to use Seagate 10k rpm SATA drives. Over the years Seagate has been proven to be the most reliable drives. We can look back and warranty repair/replacement records and know exactly which drive failed, when and why. When other manufacturers introduced compeitive 15k rpm drives we tested them, but none could touch the Seagates for raw, continuous throughput. OTOH, my three Tivo units have Maxtor PATA drives. All three failed. Two under warranty. I eventually replaced them all with another brand. Michael -- mgraves mgraves's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=4078 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=24616 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
[SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Re: digital room correction
...and a significant disadvantage as wellthe processed files would likely be unsuitable as a source for transcoding to MP3 in support of a portable device. I'd probably end up keeping unprocessed files, processed files, and MP3s in your library. Michael -- mgraves mgraves's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=4078 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=24519 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
[SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Re: SB3 + high end DAC versus high end CD Player?
opaqueice wrote: > Robin Bowes Wrote: >> Please read up on what jitter is and how it can and does have a >> spectrum >> related to the music. >> > > I have read quite a lot, and I think I have a decent understanding of > jitter. Nothing I have read has indicated that the jitter spectrum > should be harmonically related to the original analogue signal. On the > contrary, many people mention specifically that it is not, and cite that > as the reason jitter sounds so bad. Here's an excellent example: > >> These sidebands around the signal being decoded aren't harmonically >> related to the signal, making them particularly unpleasant. > > from http://www.stereophile.com/reference/1093jitter/ . I recommend > you take a look at figure 4 of that reference, and then explain to me > how the spectrum of that noise has anything whatsoever to do with the > harmonic content of the music. Please read what I actually wrote. >> The file won't get corrupted in transfer - or at least, if it does, >> you'll know about it. That's what the error correction is for. >> >> > > Files of course _do_ get corrupted in transfer occasionally. However, > if you refuse to discuss this analogy there are many others - for > example the distortion you hear over a digital cell phone, or the image > distortion you sometimes see on TV from a bad digital satellite feed, or > take your pick. Again, please read what I actually wrote. The effect of jitter is much more subtle than any of the other examples you give. R. ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
[SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Re: SB3 + high end DAC versus high end CD Player?
opaqueice Wrote: > I'm afraid you fall into Phil's category 1, hence helping prove his > point ;-).I can turn that around pretty easily. People who can't accept that > high end transports make a difference... don't own them. :popaqueice Wrote: > But seriously, and I ask this in a spirit of friendly skepticism, how > can digital errors (either jitter or missed bits) change something like > bass detail? The bits themselves have essentially nothing to do with > bass, until they get decoded through a very complex process in the DAC.No > idea, but it is a common observation. When I first got a high end CD player I didn't even have a decent amp yet... hooked it up to an all in one portable DAC/Amp that I had and there was a huge difference over my AV320 which was outputting WAV files. I don't bother trying to figure out why I hear what I hear. I trust my ears. :)opaqueice Wrote: > To make an analogy, since you're a network engineer isn't it kind of > like saying when you send a jpeg file over a wireless net versus wired > the reds in the image are more washed out and less saturated, but the > greens and blues are fine? > > EDIT - to make my analogy a bit better, suppose one of the files was > corrupted slightly, but the image was still viewable...Ummm... sorry, that > analogy seems to make sense on the surface, but these are two completely different things. What people seem to forget is that regardless of the DATA you are starting with, the method by which your transport 'transports' the data to your DAC is the important part... as long as it does its job in first retrieving the data. [Which any decent player will] -- philodox box clever, watch your system come together crazy weather at the end of my tether ::る:: heavily modded akg k340 < xlr out < lavry *black* da10 > headphone out > john grado hf-1 slim devices squeezebox /\ ultimate power cell 200 eastsound cd-e5 signature edition philodox's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=5061 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=24670 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Re: Best Hard Drive For Music Quality?
I've been using the 120GB enterprise class WD drives in a RAID 10 array for a while now and haven't had any drive failures.http://www.wdc.com/en/products/index.asp?cat=2 On 6/10/06, ezkcdude <[EMAIL PROTECTED] > wrote:I use Seagate. Definitely do not go with Western Digital, if you value your music collection.--ezkcdudeSB3->Derek Shek TDA1543/CS8412 NOS DAC->MIT Terminator 2interconnects->Endler Audio 24-step Attenuators (RCA-direct)->ParasoundHalo A23 125W/ch amplifier->Speltz anti-cables->DIY 2-ways + Dayton Titanic 10" subwooferHe's not hi-fi, he's my stereo.ezkcdude's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=2545View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=24616___ audiophiles mailing listaudiophiles@lists.slimdevices.comhttp://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
[SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Re: SB3 + high end DAC versus high end CD Player?
opaqueice Wrote: > > "These sidebands around the signal being decoded aren't harmonically > related to the signal, making them particularly unpleasant." > The above statement refers specifically to the numbers in the example given in the text. If one chose the right numbers one could make them related, see the formula in Footnote 5 of the article. However, I agree that it is hard to believe that specific frequencies will be systematically affected at all times for any music in a particular system ... BTW take a look at the dcs AES paper on the subjective effects of high sample rates and bit depths, can time smear really explain the perceived bass benefits of increased sample rates ...? At the end of the day, audio, like anything else involving the senses, is too subjective for absolute statements :-O But, as a scientist, it's fun trying to find explanations ... :-) -- reeve_mike reeve_mike's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=995 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=24670 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
[SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Re: SB3 + high end DAC versus high end CD Player?
Robin Bowes Wrote: > > Please read up on what jitter is and how it can and does have a > spectrum > related to the music. > I have read quite a lot, and I think I have a decent understanding of jitter. Nothing I have read has indicated that the jitter spectrum should be harmonically related to the original analogue signal. On the contrary, many people mention specifically that it is not, and cite that as the reason jitter sounds so bad. Here's an excellent example: > > These sidebands around the signal being decoded aren't harmonically > related to the signal, making them particularly unpleasant. from http://www.stereophile.com/reference/1093jitter/ . I recommend you take a look at figure 4 of that reference, and then explain to me how the spectrum of that noise has anything whatsoever to do with the harmonic content of the music. > > > The file won't get corrupted in transfer - or at least, if it does, > you'll know about it. That's what the error correction is for. > > Files of course _do_ get corrupted in transfer occasionally. However, if you refuse to discuss this analogy there are many others - for example the distortion you hear over a digital cell phone, or the image distortion you sometimes see on TV from a bad digital satellite feed, or take your pick. -- opaqueice opaqueice's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=4234 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=24670 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
[SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Re: SB3 + high end DAC versus high end CD Player?
Robin Bowes Wrote: > > Please read up on what jitter is and how it can and does have a > spectrum > related to the music. > To follow Robin's advice, here is a much quoted good place to start: http://www.stereophile.com/reference/1093jitter/index.html And note the distinction between on the one hand the causes of jitter and on the other hand the impact of the jitter on the audio signal ... Mike -- reeve_mike reeve_mike's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=995 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=24670 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
[SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Re: SB3 + high end DAC versus high end CD Player?
All I was saying is that bass "solidity" (timing?) is affected by jitter (IMHO). I think we humans are quite sensitive to timing errors in lower frequencies - it's just a theory, nothing more. There is an audible difference in correlated vs. uncorrelated jitter... IME jitter is responsible for most (maybe all?) of the core problems with digital reproduction. I've tried higher sampling rates/bit depths extensively in studio conditions and whilst there are improvements to be had IMHO they are NOT critical. I'm not convinced we really understand the science behind all of this...however, jitter is definitely audible to me. It manifests itself to me as indistinct bass and vague treble and I get a headache after 30 mins or so... ymmv. In my system I can listen for 12 hours+ with NO stress. It is not the best system in the world (by any measure) but it does some things OK. -- Phil Leigh Phil Leigh's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=85 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=24670 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
[SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Re: Help...not enjoying my SB3
Hiya Jack, Hope your getting your bits/ripping sorted. Glad to hear your dac is more chilled than the dac1, just started looking into dacs and good to hear opinions. If I ever heard mellow, chilled out, kicked back, etc in a digi coax it would be this one: http://tinyurl.com/epemj FAB! for chill out listening/relaxing. I do like the odd chill out track, but mostly fast stuff so it was not the one for me. If you have not heard it... -- Deaf Cat Deaf Cat's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=515 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=24613 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
[SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Re: SB3 + high end DAC versus high end CD Player?
opaqueice wrote: > Robin Bowes Wrote: >> It's the timing information that is the issue. This has been covered on >> these formums many times. >> > > There are (at least) two problems which could occur; one is timing > (jitter) and the other is simply bad bits. I think it's impossible for > bad bits to have an effect like changing the bass. But even for jitter, > it seems rather unlikely, since the spurious sounds introduced by jitter > will have a spectrum which has absolutely nothing to do with the music. > They are due to reflections in the cable, interference from the power > supply, maybe your neighbor running his dishwasher - but it's nothing > at all to do with the frequency spectrum of the music itself (unlike > analogue, where there are many frequency dependent effects). Please read up on what jitter is and how it can and does have a spectrum related to the music. >> No, it's not the same at all. >> >> Network transmission has error correction. The data is wrapped up in >> various layers of protocols. >> >> With digital audio, the bits simply transmitted over an analogue >> medium. >> There are all sorts of ways the signal can degrade in transmission and >> hence the musical information represented by the signal can be >> affected. >> >> R. > > I agree, it's not a very good analogy - so suppose instead the file > gets corrupted in transfer, then the same question. The file won't get corrupted in transfer - or at least, if it does, you'll know about it. That's what the error correction is for. You don't have that luxury in digital audio. R. ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
[SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Re: Help...not enjoying my SB3
If you're not enjoying that SB3 yet, I'll give you $50 plus shipping for it... TD -- tyler_durden tyler_durden's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=2701 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=24613 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
[SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Re: SB3 + high end DAC versus high end CD Player?
Robin Bowes Wrote: > > It's the timing information that is the issue. This has been covered on > these formums many times. > There are (at least) two problems which could occur; one is timing (jitter) and the other is simply bad bits. I think it's impossible for bad bits to have an effect like changing the bass. But even for jitter, it seems rather unlikely, since the spurious sounds introduced by jitter will have a spectrum which has absolutely nothing to do with the music. They are due to reflections in the cable, interference from the power supply, maybe your neighbor running his dishwasher - but it's nothing at all to do with the frequency spectrum of the music itself (unlike analogue, where there are many frequency dependent effects). > > > No, it's not the same at all. > > Network transmission has error correction. The data is wrapped up in > various layers of protocols. > > With digital audio, the bits simply transmitted over an analogue > medium. > There are all sorts of ways the signal can degrade in transmission and > hence the musical information represented by the signal can be > affected. > > R. I agree, it's not a very good analogy - so suppose instead the file gets corrupted in transfer, then the same question. -- opaqueice opaqueice's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=4234 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=24670 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
[SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Re: SB3 + high end DAC versus high end CD Player?
Robin Bowes Wrote: > > No, it's not the same at all. > > Network transmission has error correction. The data is wrapped up in > various layers of protocols. > > With digital audio, the bits simply transmitted over an analogue > medium. > There are all sorts of ways the signal can degrade in transmission and > hence the musical information represented by the signal can be > affected. > > R. I think his point is just that, if an error were to happen, it wouldn't make sense for it to only happen to certain colors. Every bit is equally open to corruption. It would be like drenching a book in water and giving to someone, only to have them complain that all the R's were missing. That being said, I could buy that perhaps the corruption could cause a lack of "bass solidity". Going back to the JPEG example, the corruption might exist throughout the entire photo but be *easier to see* in areas that are solid black, but less noticeable in more "busy" sections of the image. -- azinck3 azinck3's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=3967 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=24670 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
[SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Re: SB3 + high end DAC versus high end CD Player?
opaqueice wrote: > philodox Wrote: >> I use both my Squeezebox 3 and my Eastsound CD-E5 as transports to my >> Lavry Black DA10. The Eastsound is noticably better as a transport. > > I'm afraid you fall into Phil's category 1, hence helping prove his > point ;-). > > But seriously, and I ask this in a spirit of friendly skepticism, how > can digital errors (either jitter or missed bits) change something like > bass detail? The bits themselves have essentially nothing to do with > bass, until they get decoded through a very complex process in the DAC. It's the timing information that is the issue. This has been covered on these formums many times. > To make an analogy, since you're a network engineer isn't it kind of > like saying when you send a jpeg file over a wireless net versus wired > the reds in the image are more washed out and less saturated, but the > greens and blues are fine? No, it's not the same at all. Network transmission has error correction. The data is wrapped up in various layers of protocols. With digital audio, the bits simply transmitted over an analogue medium. There are all sorts of ways the signal can degrade in transmission and hence the musical information represented by the signal can be affected. R. ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
[SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Re: SB3 + high end DAC versus high end CD Player?
Phil Leigh Wrote: > > I'm wondering if Philodox is hearing jitter...bass "solidity" is one of > the victims of jitter IMHO... Can you eleborate on that? I've heard a few examples of (intentionally) jittered sound files (with MUCH more jitter added than the SB or any decent source should), and they sounded pretty bad, but I didn't notice that the bass was particularly affected. More like some extra non-harmonic frequencies in there; really unpleasant to listen to. -- opaqueice opaqueice's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=4234 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=24670 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
[SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Re: SB3 + high end DAC versus high end CD Player?
flac jacket - very funny (ROTFLMHO) I too can hear NO difference between coax (expensive Kimber Silver one) and toslink (middling quality) in my particular system - but I'm happy to believe that others will hear differences in their systems. I'm wondering if Philodox is hearing jitter...bass "solidity" is one of the victims of jitter IMHO...I do think there is mileage in trying to get rid of jitter on the SPDIF/toslink i/f. My argument was about the transport of the "bitstream" to the output of the SB..not about what happens next. As a case in point (and with due deference to Sean!) I do think that the sound can be "improved" by removing jitter just before (or within) the DAC. Phil (kevlar upgraded to chain mail - old technology, but good reviews (5 maces) in "What Armour") -- Phil Leigh Phil Leigh's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=85 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=24670 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
[SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Re: SB3 + high end DAC versus high end CD Player?
Phil Leigh Wrote: > > Until you try and turn them into sound, bits are indeed bits... There > are many reasons why an accurate rip to HD will give a reliably (ie > repeatably) accurate rendition of the right bits in the right order - > and why even the BEST CDP in the world (whatever that is) will sometime > misread bits from a spinning disc... > No Kevlar jacket required for the above, it's a fact! [Although some of the latest CDPs which use ROM drives and do multiple reads will be less prone to occasionally delivering bad data ...] I have two sources: a SB & a dcs Verdi. For CD replay these feed a dcs Elgar+ via a dcs Purcell upsampler. The whole replay chain is synch'ed via a dcs Verona clock (the SB path is modified to include a word clock input). If I have ripped a CD I play it via the SB; not the Verdi, why would I ...? -- reeve_mike reeve_mike's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=995 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=24670 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
[SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Re: Help...not enjoying my SB3
Koenraadr Wrote: > just to add my bit to the thread.. > > I finally got to try my SB3 against my CD player (Arcam alpha 5+)in a > proper blind test with my blind audiophile friend. > > He instantly chose the CD from SB3 but also declared the SB3 quite > acceptable for day to day listening. I played FLAC, 320kbps MP3 and 192 > kbps MP3. > > Admittedly he does know the quality of my system as he has heard it > many times b4. My only logic here is he instantly heard a difference. > So with the only change being the source as the interconnects are > identical, he heard a difference... Slighty less treble (which I had > spotted) and more bass (which I had not) > > Amp is Audiolab 8000C + 2 x 8000P + old well run in TDL RTL4's. Hi Koenraadr, could you specify if you were using them as transports to an external DAC, or with their analogue outs? -- opaqueice opaqueice's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=4234 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=24613 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
[SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Re: SB3 + high end DAC versus high end CD Player?
philodox Wrote: > I use both my Squeezebox 3 and my Eastsound CD-E5 as transports to my > Lavry Black DA10. The Eastsound is noticably better as a transport. I'm afraid you fall into Phil's category 1, hence helping prove his point ;-). But seriously, and I ask this in a spirit of friendly skepticism, how can digital errors (either jitter or missed bits) change something like bass detail? The bits themselves have essentially nothing to do with bass, until they get decoded through a very complex process in the DAC. To make an analogy, since you're a network engineer isn't it kind of like saying when you send a jpeg file over a wireless net versus wired the reds in the image are more washed out and less saturated, but the greens and blues are fine? -- opaqueice opaqueice's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=4234 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=24670 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
[SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Re: SB3 + high end DAC versus high end CD Player?
Phil Leigh Wrote: > > > The only people who don't accept that an accurate rip+HD will > outperform a high-end CDP as a digital transport are: > > 1) people who (currently) own high-end CDP's > 2) hi-fi reviewers > 3) buffoons who know nothing about how computers work. (Pat, this isn't > a reference to you!) > > Phil (kevlar jacket enabled) While I too salute your bravery, in this particular forum I'm not sure you'll really need the flac jacket... on the issue of digital transports, an experiment anyone with an external DAC can do easily is compare Toslink to coax. Many DACS have an input selector switch, so try comparing (say) a cheap plastic Toslink cable to high quality coax. I've tried that, and I didn't hear any difference in my system. This is relevant because Toslink should (at least according to some DSP engineers) induce lots of jitter relative to coax - probably much more of a difference than between two good-quality digital transports such as SB and CD player. Apparently in my case it wasn't enough to make an audible difference. And of course (here I go again!) please do this blind if you think you can hear a subtle difference... -- opaqueice opaqueice's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=4234 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=24670 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
[SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Re: Dac for SB3 - Benchmark vs. Lavry vs. ...?
Though I own the Lavry, I like this little bit about the Stello: "Full Balanced Class A Operation Analog Stage" -- philodox box clever, watch your system come together crazy weather at the end of my tether ::る:: heavily modded akg k340 < xlr out < lavry *black* da10 > headphone out > john grado hf-1 slim devices squeezebox /\ ultimate power cell 200 eastsound cd-e5 signature edition philodox's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=5061 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=24200 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
[SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Re: Help...not enjoying my SB3
just to add my bit to the thread.. I finally got to try my SB3 against my CD player (Arcam alpha 5+)in a proper blind test with my blind audiophile friend. He instantly chose the CD from SB3 but also declared the SB3 quite acceptable for day to day listening. I played FLAC, 320kbps MP3 and 192 kbps MP3. Admittedly he does know the quality of my system as he has heard it many times b4. My only logic here is he instantly heard a difference. So with the only change being the source as the interconnects are identical, he heard a difference... Slighty less treble (which I had spotted) and more bass (which I had not) Amp is Audiolab 8000C + 2 x 8000P + old well run in TDL RTL4's. -- Koenraadr Koenraadr's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=5142 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=24613 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
[SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Re: SB3 + high end DAC versus high end CD Player?
Phil Leigh Wrote: > The only people who don't accept that an accurate rip+HD will outperform > a high-end CDP as a digital transport are: > > 1) people who (currently) own high-end CDP's > 2) hi-fi reviewers > 3) buffoons who know nothing about how computers work.I use both my > Squeezebox 3 and my Eastsound CD-E5 as transports to my Lavry Black DA10. The Eastsound is noticably better as a transport. I am also a network administrator, and I know about all of the little audiophile tricks to get good sound out of a computer system. With the squeezebox being electrically seperate from the computer you would assume that it should be just as good. Whatever the reason, this is not the case. Bass is much better defined on the Eastsound and there is more clarity overall. Now, I still use my Squeezebox a lot of the time as it is one hell of a fun toy... but until I address these issues I will be sticking with my Eastsound for critical listening. Perhaps a battery PSU for the Squeezebox will even out the playing field. ;) -- philodox box clever, watch your system come together crazy weather at the end of my tether ::る:: heavily modded akg k340 < xlr out < lavry *black* da10 > headphone out > john grado hf-1 slim devices squeezebox /\ ultimate power cell 200 eastsound cd-e5 signature edition philodox's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=5061 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=24670 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
[SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Re: Dac for SB3 - Benchmark vs. Lavry vs. ...?
Here is some information taken directly from the Stello website (for the DA220 MkII): > Supports upto 24Bit/192kHz upsampling > - Sampling Rate Selectable: Bypass, 48kHz, 96kHz, 192kHz > - True 24Bit Delta-Sigma DAC > - Digital De-emphasis > - Phase Selection: 0, 180 Degree > - On-chip PLL eliminates jitter > - Custom designed 6th order digital filtering circuitry > - Special buffer stage between digital filter and analog out > - Separate transformers for analog and digital circuits > - High quality electronic components and gold plated RCA connectors > - 4 Digital Inputs (1 AES/EBU, 1 Coaxial, 1 Coaxial or USB selectable, > 1 Toslink) > - 3 Digital Outputs (1 AES/EBU, 1 Coaxial, 1 Toslink) > - 2 Analog Outputs: 1 Balanced Output (XLR) & 1 Unbalanced Output > (RCA) > - Full Balanced Class A Operation Analog Stage Some things bother me like "On-chip PLL", "6th order digital filtering", and "True 24-bit Delta-Sigma DAC". Let's take them in order. "On-chip PLL": Well, this is simply marketing, as every SPDIF and USB receiver chip I know of uses "on-chip" PLL to recover the incoming clock. They might as well have said, "It uses a combination of resistors, capacitors, and transistors to propagate the electrical signal!" "Sixth-order digital filtering": This one's too obvious. Hey, the more filtering the better, right? "True 24-bit Delta-Sigma DAC": This one is bad in so many ways. Suffice it to say, that even the cheapest off-the-shelf DAC chips use this methodology. This is just a case of snazzy marketing. In summary, if I were choosing between the Lavry and Stello, I'd go with the former. The Lavry is a much more sophisticated design in every conceivable way. The Stello is just taking off the shelf chips, connecting them in the usual ways, and using brilliant marketing and packaging to cover it up. Anyway, that's my opinion. -- ezkcdude SB3->Derek Shek TDA1543/CS8412 NOS DAC->MIT Terminator 2 interconnects->Endler Audio 24-step Attenuators (RCA-direct)->Parasound Halo A23 125W/ch amplifier->Speltz anti-cables->DIY 2-ways + Dayton Titanic 10" subwoofer He's not hi-fi, he's my stereo. ezkcdude's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=2545 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=24200 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
[SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Re: Help...not enjoying my SB3
Wombat - that all makes sense, but IME 48k resampling = rubbish sound when done cheaply (ie badly)... I can't get my head round Lyonesse saying that he thinks the digital out of the SB into a (good) DAC is sibilant/bright...it just isn't. If anything its a bit warm...? Others on this board have the sb/Bel Canto combo - can't believe it's overbright... I've got Townshend Supertweeters on my system and also I'm sure I could hear anything dodgy in the 10-14k region. Also as other posters said, whatever the differences are in digital cables (and I do agree that they can affect the sound) they don't act like tone controls...they don't introduce frequency shifts or peaks/troughs... I'm really confused - something must be fundamentally wrong somewhere in the setup / system...or the rips? -- Phil Leigh Phil Leigh's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=85 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=24613 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
[SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Re: SB3 + high end DAC versus high end CD Player?
I tip my hat to Phil and his brave display of logic :) -- radish radish's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=77 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=24670 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
[SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Re: SB3 + high end DAC versus high end CD Player?
Until you try and turn them into sound, bits are indeed bits...and one day someone will devise an experiment to prove this. There are many reasons why an accurate rip to HD will give a reliably (ie repeatably) accurate rendition of the right bits in the right order - and why even the BEST CDP in the world (whatever that is) will sometime misread bits from a spinning disc... In the world of SPDIF/Toslink, even with the correct bits, what matters is jitter messing up the "timing of the bits" and of course the filtering and final analogue stage of the DAC. The clocking and cabling play a part in all of this, as does PSU noise and interference. caution - sweeping generalization alert :o) The only people who don't accept that an accurate rip+HD will outperform a high-end CDP as a digital transport are: 1) people who (currently) own high-end CDP's 2) hi-fi reviewers 3) buffoons who know nothing about how computers work. Phil (kevlar jacket enabled) -- Phil Leigh Phil Leigh's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=85 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=24670 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
[SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Re: Dac for SB3 - Benchmark vs. Lavry vs. ...?
Iron_Dreamer Wrote: > I have the MkI, and it's my favorite DAC so far (owned DAC1, DA10, > Aqvox). The sound was very marginally more to my liking than the Lavry > (more a flavor issue than technical betterment), but the build quality > is off the chart. I could hit someone over the head with this thing, > and the go right back to listening to music without missing a beat. > That, plus the great looks, switchable usampling, and digital outputs > sold me on it. Huh... Within $1K price range Lavry and Stello are my major candidates. The problem with Stello is lack of information. I don't have an opportunity to hear it myself before I buy it, and even if I could, I don't entirely believe to my first impression, which is too subjective. So I want to know how good the design is, the parts, it's way of jitter handling, etc. Looks like Stello guys find it too irrelevant for an average Joe... -- 325xi 325xi's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=5661 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=24200 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
[SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Re: Bel Canto Dac2 + SB3
I'm with ezkcdude on this one...USB does not equal no jitter (usually it equals problems!) and whilst a balanced system will generally exhibit less noise (and better rejection of interference), in and of itself it does not guarantee better sound quality. -- Phil Leigh Phil Leigh's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=85 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=24206 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] SB3 + high end DAC versus high end CD Player?
Mike Anderson wrote: > For sound quality, how would you compare the SB3 running into a high end > DAC with a high end CD player? This is really not a question you can ask someone else. There are too many variables. > I'm having a debate with someone who thinks you simply can't beat a top > quality CD player, no matter how good your DAC is. > I'm not an engineer, but I can't imagine why this would be the case, > assuming you've got error-free rips of your CDs. > Can any engineers or technophiles address this issue? I am a hardcore tech geek and software engineer. I could be wrong I can't see any reason to believe that any high end transport pulling RedBook data from a CD will have any impact at all. Once the bits are off the RedBook, then the DAC and its analog circuitry is all that matters. And the reality is that everyone uses a commodity DAC chip, typically from TI (Burr Brown) or other major supplier. The cost and quality of semiconductors is directly related to how many million of them you want to buy. There is no such thing as a hand wired point-to-point DAC that is "better" than a high end commodity DAC. Getting error-free data extracted off the RedBook is a bit of a challenge, and I think something like AccuRip is the right idea even tho I think AccuRip's implementation is not ideal in many ways. Once it is extracted, and compressed with any of the many lossless systems, it becomes "bits is bits" All IMHO, of course. -- Pat http://www.pfarrell.com/music/slimserver/slimsoftware.html ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
[SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Re: Slim Devices NAS Device
A poll associated with this post was created, to vote and see the results, please visit http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=24534 Question: What do you think about the new SD NAS device? - Awesome! Where can I get one? - Nice. I'll put that on my wish list. - Not for me, but it sure is pretty. - Lame idea. Have the SD folks lost their minds? I don't use iTunes with slimserver, but according to the wiki slimserver and iTunes do _not_ need to be running on the same machine. Slimserver just needs to be able to read the iTunes library xml file. The wiki entry is clearly still a work in progress, but it does seem clear on this point. http://wiki.slimdevices.com/index.cgi?BeginnersGuideToiTunes Coming at it from a slightly different angle: I couldn't see anywhere in the Infrant web docs what operating system the NAS is running, but I'd certainly expect it's some flavor of Linux. As iTunes is Mac/Windows only, it would have to run on a different machine, and the wiki indicates that's do-able. -- aubuti aubuti's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=2074 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=24534 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
[SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Re: Help...not enjoying my SB3
Lyonesse Wrote: > Thanks Wombat, no more glitch removal shenanigans for me thats for > sure!. I was using a cheap trust card with digital coaxial out, > everything turned off in software except the spdif. i bought this > especially to enable listening through my Hi-Fi. > Jack. Aha! Cheap Trust soundcard = resampling everything to 48kHz due to the AC97 standard. Resampling from 44.1kHz to 48kHz isn´t that easy to do correct. Now it makes absolute sense. There are enough measurements around the web that these resampling algorhytms used in cheap soundcards resample away highs often. Imagine the new X-Fi uses most of its 5000! Transistors just to do a clean resampling. I bet your Trust card does the soundchange and not foobar. You can test this with a foobar plugin that resamples everything to 48kHz with the SSRC algorythm so your soundcard hasn´t to do this job. I am very interested how it sounds then. -- Wombat Wombat's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=4113 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=24613 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
[SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Re: Slim Devices NAS Device
A poll associated with this post was created, to vote and see the results, please visit http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=24534 Question: What do you think about the new SD NAS device? - Awesome! Where can I get one? - Nice. I'll put that on my wish list. - Not for me, but it sure is pretty. - Lame idea. Have the SD folks lost their minds? What happens if you want to run iTunes with Slimserver. Don't they have to run on the same machine? Would you be able to install itunes on their NAS?? -- Imagika Imagika's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=774 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=24534 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
[SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Re: Denon DRA-395
Hi, I am also looking at the DRA-395, I am currently using a Denon avr w/ the optical to squeezebox v.2. Moving to an analog DRA-395 is a concern,using only the analog. Should I worry or upgrade to another avr with optical? Does this concern you? -- dmarshal dmarshal's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=1142 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=23912 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
[SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Re: SB3 + high end DAC versus high end CD Player?
opaqueice Wrote: > > If you were using the CD player as a digital transport (i.e. sending > its digital out into the same DAC as the SB) I think the SB will > probably win or tieThat's not my experience - good though the SB3 is, it just > isn't as good as the best transports. In theory, the SB should be capable of being at least as good as any CDP. But in practice, it's generally down to the detail and quality of the actual implementation (in both cases). -- Patrick Dixon www.at-tunes.co.uk Patrick Dixon's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=90 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=24670 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
[SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Re: SB3 + high end DAC versus high end CD Player?
Mike Anderson Wrote: > For sound quality, how would you compare the SB3 running into a high end > DAC with a high end CD player? > > I'm having a debate with someone who thinks you simply can't beat a top > quality CD player, no matter how good your DAC is. > > I'm not an engineer, but I can't imagine why this would be the case, > assuming you've got error-free rips of your CDs. > > Can any engineers or technophiles address this issue? > > thanks There are two things at play there - jitter and the quality of the DAC (either external or internal). If you were using the CD player as a digital transport (i.e. sending its digital out into the same DAC as the SB) I think the SB will probably win or tie, as its jitter is supposed to be (and has been measured to be) very low. Of course jitter can't really be quantified with one number (it has a spectrum), but I think the SB jitter is so low it's below the quantization error inherent in 16 bit audio, and hence should be totally inaudible. One caveat is that this applies to jitter measured at the SB digital out, but additional jitter will be induced by the connection to the DAC. Some external DACs (Benchmark for example) claim to be able to eliminate jitter entirely via rebufferring. I'm not sure this is really possible, but if true it would make essentially all digital sources sound exactly the same. On the other hand if you compare the analogue outs of the CD to the SB with or without external DAC, there are now more variables in play - the relative quality of the DACs, etc. Furthermore some high-end CD players have fancy systems for reducing jitter in the internal connections (for example using the same clock for both the buffer output and the DAC). In any case I suspect the most important factor here is the quality of the analogue output stage of the DAC, rather than jitter. As an aside, I think the differences involved here are far, far less important than those due to speakers and room acoustics. -- opaqueice opaqueice's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=4234 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=24670 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
[SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Re: Help...not enjoying my SB3
Lyonesse Wrote: > > Hi Patrick Im taking a good long look at your website, I live in > Shropshire. :)I just delivered one to someone in Telford, and my parents > still live in Shrewsbury. I've also lived in Church Stretton and Newport (Salop), long ago in my youth ... -- Patrick Dixon www.at-tunes.co.uk Patrick Dixon's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=90 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=24613 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
[SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Re: Help...not enjoying my SB3
Thanks Wombat, no more glitch removal shenanigans for me thats for sure!. I was using a cheap trust card with digital coaxial out, everything turned off in software except the spdif. i bought this especially to enable listening through my Hi-Fi. Hi Patrick Im taking a good long look at your website, I live in Shropshire. :) Fuzzy I havent tried the analogue outs as yet but will do tonight, Jack. -- Lyonesse Lyonesse's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=5496 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=24613 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
[SlimDevices: Audiophiles] SB3 + high end DAC versus high end CD Player?
For sound quality, how would you compare the SB3 running into a high end DAC with a high end CD player? I'm having a debate with someone who thinks you simply can't beat a top quality CD player, no matter how good your DAC is. I'm not an engineer, but I can't imagine why this would be the case, assuming you've got error-free rips of your CDs. Can any engineers or technophiles address this issue? thanks -- Mike Anderson 'FREE RADICAL RADIO!' (http://nvo.com/cd) Hours of free radical MP3s. Mike Anderson's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=1705 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=24670 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Re: Help...not enjoying my SB3
Lyonesse wrote: Im not knocking the SB3 in any way, I just want to find a way to integrate it into my system better so as to kick back and chillout with my new toy ;) Have you tried using the SB3's analog outputs? It won't cost anything to try this and you may find that they sound better (to you, in your system). You may also want to try one of the linear power supplies. Though scoffed at by the empiricists, and lacking a clear engineering story for why the sound might improve, many users have reported an audible and desirable change in the quality of the sound. It's not free, but is cheap to try this. --rt ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
[SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Re: Bel Canto Dac2 + SB3
SuperQ Wrote: > A friend of mine who knows the guys at bel canto saw the unit a little > bit ago, he says it's very good, and the USB input is the best way to > get sound out of it. (no pesky jitter correction needed) I was going > to try and check out the unit while I was in town, but ran out of time. > > The big thing I like about the bel canto stuff is balanced output on > the analog side.. anyone who does 'audiophile' stuff with single ended > links is silly. First, you need to read up on USB interfaces to DAC's. It's simply not true that "no pesky jitter correction needed". In fact, some implementations are much worse. Now, as for your second point, you should think twice about throwing out an insult like that around here. Many of us are proud owners of "unbalanced" systems. Anyway, do you know for a fact that your system is *fully* balanced from input to output? Care to share with us what exactly you are listening to? -- ezkcdude SB3->Derek Shek TDA1543/CS8412 NOS DAC->MIT Terminator 2 interconnects->Endler Audio 24-step Attenuators (RCA-direct)->Parasound Halo A23 125W/ch amplifier->Speltz anti-cables->DIY 2-ways + Dayton Titanic 10" subwoofer He's not hi-fi, he's my stereo. ezkcdude's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=2545 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=24206 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
[SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Re: Minor Rant: I wish more CD players had digital inputs
The Cary 303/200 and 306/200 (both now discontinued) are cd players that also have digital input and digital output. -- drs drs's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=3536 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=24627 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
