[SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Re: letter to Hi Fi News
Phil Leigh Wrote: > OK I think we all agree that the bits will be the same regardless of > flac/wav etc...so could someone please do some comparative jitter > measurements and then we can put this "old chestnut" to bed? Sean did some jitter measurements for a linear PSU versus a switcher. Switcher actually did slightly better, although not significantly. I (and several others) did some listening tests for FLAC versus WAV streaming. No difference, even for people that had thought they heard one before they did it blind. There was a claim that the sound was better wired versus wireless. When the guy did it blind, no difference. Long discussion about absolute phase (relevant to SB because early firmware reversed it) - conclusion, no difference in music, or in anything other than highly artificial asymmetric waveforms. Probably more I'm forgetting at the moment. Anyone else see a pattern here? -- opaqueice opaqueice's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=4234 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=25138 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
[SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Re: Best Audiophile Music Server
It's definitely true that EAC will rip discs that several CDP's refuse to play. The only audible "ticks" (and accompanying error reports) I ever get with EAC are certain types of copy protection or from bronzed discs (depends how bad they are). The bronzed discs refuse to play at all on any CDP I have access to. I accept that my Samsung DVDR drive is not a Plextor, but then it doesn't need to be for this purpose. PS having copied 500+ albums to cd, I'm pretty "tuned in" to clicks etc ! -- Phil Leigh Phil Leigh's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=85 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=24957 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
[SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Re: Question to Slim Devices
Surely someone can stump up a dCS, Esoteric, Naim or whatever? Once we know the answer we can start looking again at DAC's (yes and cables/interconnection methods) rather than the transport element! I can see three possible outcomes: 1) SB good as high end CDP 2) SB better than high-end CDP 3) SB significantly worse than high end CDP If 3 then the SB will be improved until 1 or 2 is true...whatever, we all benefit. -- Phil Leigh Phil Leigh's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=85 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=25188 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
[SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Re: letter to Hi Fi News
OK I think we all agree that the bits will be the same regardless of flac/wav etc...so could someone please do some comparative jitter measurements and then we can put this "old chestnut" to bed? -- Phil Leigh Phil Leigh's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=85 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=25138 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Re: Best Audiophile Music Server
P Floding wrote: > A brand new CD with uncorrectable errors? Sure, happens due to manufacturing errors. The RedBook spec has pretty good error correction specs, especially given it was written in the mid 1970s. But anything made on a production line can have errors. -- Pat http://www.pfarrell.com/music/slimserver/slimsoftware.html ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
[SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Re: Best Audiophile Music Server
cliveb Wrote: > My apologies for not explicitly answering your question earlier. On 26th > June opaqueice posted something in response which sort of summed up what > EAC does when it detects an uncorrectable error. I posted a slight > clarification on 27th, and thought that between them those two posts > covered it. But clearly I was wrong to think that, so > > Let's consider what happens when a CD has an uncorrectable error, ie. > enough bad symbols in a data block that even after C2 CIRC processing, > they cannot be corrected. When being read by an audio CD player, the > incorrect data is interpolated. In other words, the CD player "makes > up" some replacement data that it hopes will provide a seamless join > between the preceding and following correct data. Very often, such an > interpolation works very well. > > This isn't what EAC does. The reading drive reports an uncorrected C2 > error, and EAC starts re-reading the same block over & over again, in > the hope that the error will go away. But in most cases the error > *doesn't* go away. My experience is that if EAC detects an > uncorrectable error, it rarely pops out the other side of this process > having eliminated it. And the normal result is an audible "tick" in the > extracted WAV file. I have yet to see any evidence that EAC performs > error concealment through interpolation in the way that audio players > do. Even CDROM drives that have error interpolation capability (eg. my > Plextor PX712A) are not utilised fully by EAC. I recently ripped a > brand new CD that had uncorrectable errors, and only Plextools was able > to get a clean result, precisely because it apparently knows how to > instruct the drive to deploy its interpolation algorithm. EAC could not > produce a tick-free result in any mode (secure, fast or burst). A brand new CD with uncorrectable errors? Was it by any chance "protected" by som idiot-style copy protection scheme? The CD's (if indeed it even is a real CD) sleeve notes should say. -- P Floding P Floding's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=2932 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=24957 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
[SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Re: Question to Slim Devices
seanadams Wrote: > btw if anyone has a very high-end CD player that they'd like to loan me > for a week in exchange for a free SB3, I can do some head-to-head tests > using the same measurement setup. I only wish I lived closer to you, wherever that might be. (Not in the UK, I bet.) -- P Floding P Floding's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=2932 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=25188 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
[SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Re: Question to Slim Devices
btw if anyone has a very high-end CD player that they'd like to loan me for a week in exchange for a free SB3, I can do some head-to-head tests using the same measurement setup. -- seanadams seanadams's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=3 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=25188 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
[SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Re: Best Audiophile Music Server
mauidan Wrote: > "Of course I acknowledge that CDs do exist which cannot be read without > error. They may be damaged, or they may have been mastered/pressed > badly. But in my experience, playing such a CD on an audio CD player > and recording the SPDIF output often gives a better result than letting > EAC "do its magic." - cliveb > > I'm still waiting for cliveb to explain what "magic" EAC is going to > perform if you've recorded a signal with ECCs. My apologies for not explicitly answering your question earlier. On 26th June opaqueice posted something in response which sort of summed up what EAC does when it detects an uncorrectable error. I posted a slight clarification on 27th, and thought that between them those two posts covered it. But clearly I was wrong to think that, so Let's consider what happens when a CD has an uncorrectable error, ie. enough bad symbols in a data block that even after C2 CIRC processing, they cannot be corrected. When being read by an audio CD player, the incorrect data is interpolated. In other words, the CD player "makes up" some replacement data that it hopes will provide a seamless join between the preceding and following correct data. Very often, such an interpolation works very well. This isn't what EAC does. The reading drive reports an uncorrected C2 error, and EAC starts re-reading the same block over & over again, in the hope that the error will go away. But in most cases the error *doesn't* go away. My experience is that if EAC detects an uncorrectable error, it rarely pops out the other side of this process having eliminated it. And the normal result is an audible "tick" in the extracted WAV file. I have yet to see any evidence that EAC performs error concealment through interpolation in the way that audio players do. Even CDROM drives that have error interpolation capability (eg. my Plextor PX712A) are not utilised fully by EAC. I recently ripped a brand new CD that had uncorrectable errors, and only Plextools was able to get a clean result, precisely because it apparently knows how to instruct the drive to deploy its interpolation algorithm. EAC could not produce a tick-free result in any mode (secure, fast or burst). -- cliveb cliveb's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=348 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=24957 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
[SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Re: letter to Hi Fi News
Triode Wrote: > People worried about the different processing being performed by the cpu > for flac vs wav may like to consider the impact of repeating bit > patterns in the digital stream. Surely it would all sound better if > the data being processed exibited no repeating patterns which could be > coupled into the power rails Triode, I don't think people are worried. However, it is false to say the there -cannot- be any differences in FLAC and WAV reproduction. It may be unlikely -but that is not the same as saying that it is impossible. -- P Floding P Floding's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=2932 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=25138 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
[SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Re: letter to Hi Fi News
People worried about the different processing being performed by the cpu for flac vs wav may like to consider the impact of repeating bit patters in the digital stream. Surely it would all sound better if the data being processed exibited no repeating patterns which could be coupled into the power rails -- Triode Triode's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=17 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=25138 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
[SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Re: Question to Slim Devices
Unless you know exactly how they were measured, don't believe any jitter numbers, and certainly don't try to compare them. -- seanadams seanadams's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=3 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=25188 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
[SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Re: Best Audiophile Music Server
opaqueice Wrote: > I'm not sure anyone can figure out what you're asking - maybe you should > try asking a more coherent question if you want a response. > > EAC reads CDs, which have a form of ECC built in - is that what you're > asking about? And cliveb was claiming (for some reason) that EAC is no > better, or even worse, than standard CD players... so I for one have no > idea what you're asking about. Please read his quote again: "Of course I acknowledge that CDs do exist which cannot be read without error. They may be damaged, or they may have been mastered/pressed badly. But in my experience, playing such a CD on an audio CD player and recording the SPDIF output often gives a better result than letting EAC "do its magic." - cliveb" As Phil points out, a CDP is not going to be able read a damaged disc as well as EAC, so the recording cliveb makes off the CDP's SPDIF output is probably going to contain ECCs. If cliveb now runs this CDR through EAC, I'd like to know what "magic" EAC is going to perform to recover the data that the CDP couldn't read. -- mauidan mauidan's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=1679 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=24957 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
[SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Re: letter to Hi Fi News
Robin Bowes Wrote: > CardinalFang wrote: > > Robin Bowes Wrote: > >> 3. The very act of running the flac conversion routine on silicon > >> inside > >> the SB causes interference with other parts of the SB (EMF, change > in > >> current draw, voltage drops, etc.). > >> > > > > Would a quick check of the audio effect of varying current demand be > > achievable by listening with the display on and off? That must draw > > more current than any difference in instructions being executed or > > speed of update of the display. > > > It might do. Then again, it might not. > It's usually a feature of high-end gear to be able to turn off the display for sound quality reasons, so it might be worth a blind test. It is a genuine change in current demand, running a different code sequence isn't. Robin Bowes Wrote: > > > As far as I can see, decoding FLAC only requires a difference > sequence > > of code to be executed and code is code. The same digital data is > sent > > to the audio backend. > > But that code is not being executed when PCM data (as in PCM data > received over the network) is being sent to the DAC. > > I have no evidence that this phenomenon has any effect on the output, > or > that it even exists at all. In fact, I'm highly skeptical. I am merely > highlighting certain things that could *possibly* cause a difference > between natively-decoded flac and flac files decoded on the server. But at the end of the day, the code executed is uing the same instruction set, in fact I bet it's tough to tell the differnce from looking at a random code sequence whether FLAC decoding is going on (unless you wrote the code or are good at spotting codecs). Unless the processor has a sleep mode and shuts down when it has nothing to do, it'll still be executing a code sequence from a fixed instruction set all the time. Unless it is using anciliary features like a FP unit for FLAC and not for PCM, or changing clock speeds, it's actually doing the same thing at a processor level - running instuctions from a limited set of ADDs, MOVEs etc. It'd be a real audiophile mess if you had to choose which compiler or machine code to use for sound quality reasons! :-) What is far more likely in my mind is that FLAC decoding requires less/different network activity or updating the display less often cause fewer peaks of some sort and therefore there *could* be a difference in power consuption and behaviour there (especially in a weak WiFi area), but I think we're clutching at straws here. -- CardinalFang You're only young once, but you can be immature forever... CardinalFang's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=962 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=25138 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
[SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Re: letter to Hi Fi News
Ok everybody is discussing the lossless transfer and the Flac conversion, but what about the spdif transformation when the digital out is used. As I understand this is done by the processor in the sB2 and not using any standard chip. I compared the SB2 to two CDPs, in both cases the perceived sound is 'brighter', like highly pitched, mid and high frequencies are more prominent. Why? At the beginning that was bothering me, now I'm accustom and I also use a DEQ for room correction so it can compensate a bit. Chris -- krzys krzys's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=2256 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=25138 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
[SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Re: Best Audiophile Music Server
Why EAC (or cdparanoia or a whole slew of rippers) get more accurate readings is because though there is error correction on CD's, it is not always able to correct every error. It is possible that enough bits are off that there is insufficent correction code to fix them (or the ECC bits got corrupted by the same errors). This is called "Uncorrectable Data Error" because that is exactly what it is. To make matters more interesting, not all CD-ROM drives report when this happens. CDP's will know when this happens and have a variety of mechanisms to fudge the data so you ideally won't notice. EAC gets around this lack of information from the hardware by rereading the sector and comparing on drives that don't report failures. This is why EAC is a lot faster on drives that do report uncorrectable errors and why if you have a 48x drive, you still usually end up ripping at 4x or so. So, yes, EAC is quite capable of reading a disc that a conventional CDP player will either refuse to play (some just stop playing if they get to a particularly nasty spot), or that will fudge data just to make it sound better. It's not unique to EAC: cdparanoia does much the same thing on Unix platforms and I'm sure there are plenty of other programs that don't blindly trust the drive to fix every error. -- snarlydwarf snarlydwarf's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=1179 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=24957 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
[SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Re: letter to Hi Fi News
CardinalFang Wrote: > Would a quick check of the audio effect of varying current demand be > achievable by listening with the display on and off? That must draw > more current than any difference in instructions being executed or > speed of update of the display. > > As far as I can see, decoding FLAC only requires a difference sequence > of code to be executed and code is code. The same digital data is sent > to the audio backend. It is not just current being drawn that matters, but how it is being drawn. What noise is created and how it travels, and so on. Only measurements can really answer that question. -- P Floding P Floding's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=2932 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=25138 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
[SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Re: letter to Hi Fi News
CardinalFang wrote: > Robin Bowes Wrote: >> 3. The very act of running the flac conversion routine on silicon >> inside >> the SB causes interference with other parts of the SB (EMF, change in >> current draw, voltage drops, etc.). >> > > Would a quick check of the audio effect of varying current demand be > achievable by listening with the display on and off? That must draw > more current than any difference in instructions being executed or > speed of update of the display. It might do. Then again, it might not. > As far as I can see, decoding FLAC only requires a difference sequence > of code to be executed and code is code. The same digital data is sent > to the audio backend. But that code is not being executed when PCM data (as in PCM data received over the network) is being sent to the DAC. I have no evidence that this phenomenon has any effect on the output, or that it even exists at all. In fact, I'm highly skeptical. I am merely highlighting certain things that could *possibly* cause a difference between natively-decoded flac and flac files decoded on the server. R. ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
[SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Re: Best Audiophile Music Server
mauidan Wrote: > > I'm still waiting for cliveb to explain what "magic" EAC is going to > perform if you've recorded a signal with ECCs. I'm not sure anyone can figure out what you're asking - maybe you should try asking a more coherent question if you want a response. EAC reads CDs, which have a form of ECC built in - is that what you're asking about? And cliveb was claiming (for some reason) that EAC is no better, or even worse, than standard CD players... so I for one have no idea what you're asking about. -- opaqueice opaqueice's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=4234 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=24957 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
[SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Re: letter to Hi Fi News
Robin Bowes Wrote: > > 3. The very act of running the flac conversion routine on silicon > inside > the SB causes interference with other parts of the SB (EMF, change in > current draw, voltage drops, etc.). > Would a quick check of the audio effect of varying current demand be achievable by listening with the display on and off? That must draw more current than any difference in instructions being executed or speed of update of the display. As far as I can see, decoding FLAC only requires a difference sequence of code to be executed and code is code. The same digital data is sent to the audio backend. -- CardinalFang You're only young once, but you can be immature forever... CardinalFang's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=962 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=25138 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
[SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Re: letter to Hi Fi News
Robin Bowes Wrote: > > 3. The very act of running the flac conversion routine on silicon > inside > the SB causes interference with other parts of the SB (EMF, change in > current draw, voltage drops, etc.). > > R. I don't believe 2 would be likely, as SD tells us they have verified the bit-correctness of the on-board FLAC decoder. Also, jitter due to network transfer is not an issue, apart from activity in the SB affecting the power supply. No. 3 is more likely, as decoding FLAC should require a lot more processing power than just receiving WAV. -- P Floding P Floding's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=2932 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=25138 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
[SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Re: Best Audiophile Music Server
I simply don't agree with Clive. Given the mechanics and processes involved, EAC will always give a more accurate (or equally accurate) bitstream as a good/great/the best CDP...There's no evidence at all that any CDP can CONSISTENTLY retrieve the same accuracy as EAC ( or whatever) and definitely no evidence that a CDP can retrieve a MORE accurate bitstream. I may just have to fork out for one of those DED devices to prove the point... -- Phil Leigh Phil Leigh's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=85 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=24957 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
[SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Re: Best Audiophile Music Server
"Of course I acknowledge that CDs do exist which cannot be read without error. They may be damaged, or they may have been mastered/pressed badly. But in my experience, playing such a CD on an audio CD player and recording the SPDIF output often gives a better result than letting EAC "do its magic." - cliveb I'm still waiting for cliveb to explain what "magic" EAC is going to perform if you've recorded a signal with ECCs. -- mauidan mauidan's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=1679 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=24957 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
[SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Re: letter to Hi Fi News
As far as I can see (but NOT hear!) only your final point may actually have any bearing on the end result. However, I can't hear any difference between streaming flac or wav... -- Phil Leigh Phil Leigh's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=85 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=25138 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
[SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Re: Ideas for a hidden set-up?
When I say 20 Yards I am talking about cable length. I am not sure if I need 20 yards or not I was just trying to get an understanding of what people would consider is acceptable for length of signal and speaker wires? I do not have a basement only solid concrete floors. I am currently specifying the wiring for a major overhaul of our house which is why I am asking these questions now. Loosing cables in walls is no issue. I mention the rack as I will have a rack in the study and if it is possible to hide the amps away in another central room that would be an excellent solution, if it works. I do like the powered speaker solution and may use this in some other rooms, such as the kitchen where they can be positioned out of the way, maybe above cupboards. But in the lounge I believe I will look for surface mount speakers to keep the install as unobtrusive as possible. -- GregW GregW's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=5875 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=24563 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
[SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Re: letter to Hi Fi News
Robin Bowes Wrote: > > > The only ways I can think of that could possibly cause any difference > are: > > 1. flac decoding routine in SB firmware is not correct - unlikely, and > I > seem to remember that it has been confirmed that the decoding is > accurate by recording SPDIF data from the digital out and comparing to > the original PCM data. > > 2. The decoded PCM data is fed to the DAC in a different way than PCM > data received directly from the network with possibly differing clock > stability and resulting difference in jitter. Again, unlikely. > > 3. The very act of running the flac conversion routine on silicon > inside > the SB causes interference with other parts of the SB (EMF, change in > current draw, voltage drops, etc.). > > R. Possibility 1 is out - many people have verified that the S/PDIF stream is bit-accurate. 2 and 3 are possible, in principle. Of course, they also allow for the possibility - just as likely - that streaming FLAC sounds better than streaming WAV. Everyone that has actually tried this blind has been unable to hear a difference... so why are we wasting our time discussing it? -- opaqueice opaqueice's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=4234 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=25138 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
[SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Re: Question to Slim Devices
325xi Wrote: > This is about what I did. > I liked the initially found number close to 100ps very much, until I > found this. http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=24392 Are you sure this is so bad, compared to a good CD player? You have to be careful with these number - jitter has a spectrum, so it can't be quantified completely with a single number. In this case, the low numbers he quotes are the root-mean-square values. That is, take a clock edge, subtract the time it occurred from the ideal time (in picoseconds), square that, sum over all edges, and then take the square root. That's almost certainly the standard number you'd see quoted anywhere, and it's very low, from what I've seen. The peak-peak values are the largest values of the deviation from ideal that occur anywhere in the sample set (he doesn't say how long it is, but it's probably very very long). So when you compare, make sure you're comparing apples to apples! -- opaqueice opaqueice's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=4234 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=25188 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
[SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Re: Help...not enjoying my SB3
Lyonesse Wrote: > > Did you used to live in that beautiful old timber framed house near the > institute (the Sylvester Horne institute i think). > Sylvester Horne - that's right! No, it's called Ashford House, and it's the town house immediately left of the SH Institute as you look at it from the road. It was (is) a lovely house. We are talking 30 years ago though! -- Patrick Dixon www.at-tunes.co.uk Patrick Dixon's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=90 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=24613 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
[SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Re: Help...not enjoying my SB3
Robin You would be very welcome to drop in next time your around, drop me an email! :) Jack -- Lyonesse Lyonesse's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=5496 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=24613 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
[SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Re: Help...not enjoying my SB3
Hi Patrick Did you used to live in that beautiful old timber framed house near the institute (the Sylvester Horne institute i think). Im going to shoot over to Gary's house in telford to listen to your SB+ sometime at the beginning of August (when my new dac is burnt in)...we will also compare our usb/ SPDIF converters, He has an Empirical Off ramp Turbo which will almost certainly trounce my hagerman. :) just for the record... I use Valve amplification because of a sensitivity to Brightness, Sibilence. I wish I had burnt my SB3 in for longer as others have suggested. Jack. -- Lyonesse Lyonesse's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=5496 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=24613 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
[SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Re: Question to Slim Devices
Robin Bowes Wrote: > 325xi wrote: > > First I would like to mention that I use SB only as Ethernet to > SPDIF > > interface, and it seems to do very well as such. > > > > The only concern for this kind of device I can think about is > jitter. > > The data on jitter on coax output is fairly controversial: some say > > it's around 100ps (I don't remember whether it's RMS or pk-pk), but > > measurements on this forum give another number - about 470ps pk-pk, > > which is not low at all. I also recall some post elsewhere where > John > > Atkinson wrote he wasn't impressed with jitter measurements either. > > > > My question is whether Slim Devices recognize that current jitter > > measurements as something that requires improvement? > > Are there any plans to work on getting closer (in terms of jitter) > to > > good CD players, which now register 180-220ps pk-pk on coax outputs? > > > > I'd like to emphasize that I'm not talking about so called > "audiophile" > > version of SB with nice thick front panel and nice-to-have but > pretty > > much useless in this application AES/EBU digital out, etc. - but > rather > > about getting it's major functionality to the appropriate level. > > This is a classic loaded question: > http://www.fallacyfiles.org/loadques.html > > Search these forums some more - you'll see that Sean has performed > extensive jitter measurements and that the jitter figures are nowhere > near as high as you're claiming. > > R. This is about what I did. I liked the initially found number close to 100ps very much, until I found this. http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=24392 -- 325xi 325xi's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=5661 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=25188 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
[SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Re: Question to Slim Devices
325xi wrote: > First I would like to mention that I use SB only as Ethernet to SPDIF > interface, and it seems to do very well as such. > > The only concern for this kind of device I can think about is jitter. > The data on jitter on coax output is fairly controversial: some say > it's around 100ps (I don't remember whether it's RMS or pk-pk), but > measurements on this forum give another number - about 470ps pk-pk, > which is not low at all. I also recall some post elsewhere where John > Atkinson wrote he wasn't impressed with jitter measurements either. > > My question is whether Slim Devices recognize that current jitter > measurements as something that requires improvement? > Are there any plans to work on getting closer (in terms of jitter) to > good CD players, which now register 180-220ps pk-pk on coax outputs? > > I'd like to emphasize that I'm not talking about so called "audiophile" > version of SB with nice thick front panel and nice-to-have but pretty > much useless in this application AES/EBU digital out, etc. - but rather > about getting it's major functionality to the appropriate level. This is a classic loaded question: http://www.fallacyfiles.org/loadques.html Search these forums some more - you'll see that Sean has performed extensive jitter measurements and that the jitter figures are nowhere near as high as you're claiming. R. ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
[SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Re: Help...not enjoying my SB3
Patrick Dixon Wrote: > Maybe it shouldn't, but in fact it does. The only thing you can do to it is to lower its jitter, but jitter-only related changes are subtle (how much lower you can get it?), and I'm doubt they will have two dramatically different "own" sounds. It will be the same with subtle improvements. Otherwise I don't see where can it get it's own coloration, unless you use its analog stage. -- 325xi 325xi's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=5661 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=24613 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
[SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Re: Help...not enjoying my SB3
325xi wrote: > Although I don't > believe in too cheap analog stuff. SB is just a transmitter (assuming > it feeds an outboard DAC), and a good one. It doesn't, and shouldn't, > have it's own sound. Not so. A digital source still transmits digital data to an external DAC synchronously over an analogue transmission path, be that coax or toslink. There are several ways that the transmitting device, the connecting cable, and the receiving device can interact to produce a distinctive sound. R. ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
[SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Question to Slim Devices
First I would like to mention that I use SB only as Ethernet to SPDIF interface, and it seems to do very well as such. The only concern for this kind of device I can think about is jitter. The data on jitter on coax output is fairly controversial: some say it's around 100ps (I don't remember whether it's RMS or pk-pk), but measurements on this forum give another number - about 470ps pk-pk, which is not low at all. I also recall some post elsewhere where John Atkinson wrote he wasn't impressed with jitter measurements either. My question is whether Slim Devices recognize that current jitter measurements as something that requires improvement? Are there any plans to work on getting closer (in terms of jitter) to good CD players, which now register 180-220ps pk-pk on coax outputs? I'd like to emphasize that I'm not talking about so called "audiophile" version of SB with nice thick front panel and nice-to-have but pretty much useless in this application AES/EBU digital out, etc. - but rather about getting it's major functionality to the appropriate level. -- 325xi 325xi's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=5661 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=25188 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
[SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Re: Help...not enjoying my SB3
325xi Wrote: > SB is just a transmitter (assuming it feeds an outboard DAC), and a > good one. It doesn't, and shouldn't, have it's own sound.Maybe it shouldn't, > but in fact it does. -- Patrick Dixon www.at-tunes.co.uk Patrick Dixon's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=90 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=24613 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
[SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Re: letter to Hi Fi News
P Floding wrote: > Yeah, well.. > Of course a lot of technical ignorants might listen for differences > that should be impossible. On the other hand, could you explain to me > how the FLAC gets converted to 16/44 inside the SB3 without -anything- > different going on compared to playing WAV? Well, of course something different "goes on" - the flac data has to be decoded to PCM by firmware routines within the SB. i.e. 1. When you playback a .wav file natively, it is streamed to the SB as PCM data, received by the network "module" and fed to the DAC. 2. When you playback a .flac file natively, it is streamed to the SB as flac data, received by the network module and fed to an implementation in firmware of the flac decoding routines. This produces PCM data which is fed to the DAC. 3. When you playback a .flac file with server-side conversion, it is converted to PCM data on the server and streamed to the SB as PCM data, received by the network "module" and fed to the DAC. Either way, the DAC is (or should be) receiving *exactly* the same bits (since flac is lossless). The only ways I can think of that could possibly cause any difference are: 1. flac decoding routine in SB firmware is not correct - unlikely, and I seem to remember that it has been confirmed that the decoding is accurate by recording SPDIF data from the digital out and comparing to the original PCM data. 2. The decoded PCM data is fed to the DAC in a different way than PCM data received directly from the network with possibly differing clock stability and resulting difference in jitter. Again, unlikely. 3. The very act of running the flac conversion routine on silicon inside the SB causes interference with other parts of the SB (EMF, change in current draw, voltage drops, etc.). R. ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
[SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Re: Help...not enjoying my SB3
325xi wrote: > > ajmitchell Wrote: >> If would rather say he wants to sell the bimmer because he did not like >> the interiorwhich to me is totally acceptable if you only realise >> the interior isn't ideal later. > That's fine, but here he sold bimmer because he likes civic's interior > more. That, BTW, also fine, his personal business, but why to claim > that civic's one is substantially better, while it's technically not > true? You can say "I like it more", but not "it's superior". And, I > wouldn't look at bimmers for interior first place. To be fair, I think all that Jack (Lyonesse) has said is that he doesn't like the sound he's heard from his Squeezebox. Now, personally, I think that there must be something wrong with his setup for him to hear so much treble/sibilance. The fact that he claims that swapping the audio interconnects from his DAC to amp substantially improved the sound reinforces this view - there's no way that should make a big difference. This reinforces my view that there was something wrong somewhere. It's a shame that we couldn't figure that out beforeh e decide to sell. However, Jack has made his choice - and he's now enjoying music again, which is of course the most important thing. Jack, if I'm ever near Church stretton, Shropshire I'd be interested in listening to your setup (with my SB3) to see if I can identify a problem. R. ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
[SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Re: Help...not enjoying my SB3
ajmitchell Wrote: > Personally, I like the sound from the SB3 but I wouldn't say everyone > has to like it, or that it cannot be improved. My g/f cannot hear the > difference between a $500 setup and my $5000 setup - but I have learned > the hard way not to point this out too often ;) [You might say she is > lucky she can really enjoy the cheaper system] Well, I learned not to make any conclusions based on the price at all. Good $500 setup can sound better then incompetent multi-thousands one, rarely though. I also learned to think that digital stage of the rig can cost 1/10 of the whole, and be perfectly good. Although I don't believe in too cheap analog stuff. SB is just a transmitter (assuming it feeds an outboard DAC), and a good one. It doesn't, and shouldn't, have it's own sound. One just have to configure his system properly. If it sounds bright to you, it's your DAC. Or somehting faulty - cables, EMI/RF, etc. Or your former CDP was badly coloured, but then it's not SB's fault. ajmitchell Wrote: > If would rather say he wants to sell the bimmer because he did not like > the interiorwhich to me is totally acceptable if you only realise > the interior isn't ideal later. That's fine, but here he sold bimmer because he likes civic's interior more. That, BTW, also fine, his personal business, but why to claim that civic's one is substantially better, while it's technically not true? You can say "I like it more", but not "it's superior". And, I wouldn't look at bimmers for interior first place. -- 325xi 325xi's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=5661 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=24613 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
[SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Re: Help...not enjoying my SB3
As the first one to reply to this thread I would like to come in again near the end... 325xi Wrote: > The only reason for properly functioning SB to sound bad is owner's > technical ignorance, no offence intended of course. I think we should try and avoid criticism of people asking for help. Good sound is ultimately subjective, as is bad sound. An indistinct less dynamic sound to some will be rated as smooth and silky by others. Personally, I like the sound from the SB3 but I wouldn't say everyone has to like it, or that it cannot be improved. My g/f cannot hear the difference between a $500 setup and my $5000 setup - but I have learned the hard way not to point this out too often ;) [You might say she is lucky she can really enjoy the cheaper system] 325xi Wrote: > > All this story sounds like you sold bimmer because you found your civic > to have a nicer door knob. If would rather say he wants to sell the bimmer because he did not like the interiorwhich to me is totally acceptable if you only realise the interior isn't ideal later. Alex -- ajmitchell ajmitchell's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=800 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=24613 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
[SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Re: Best Audiophile Music Server
...you say money was no object. Hmmm As for the Server side - I'd be running slimserver on my own IBM AS/400 under Linux. The port for Cray ins't finished yet. as for the Hifi side, The speakers would have to be Avantegardes matched to Wavac Amps. Lastly, I'd buy shares in Slim Devices Inc. which would hopefully help them on their goal of World Domination with the biggest, baddest and bestest Player(s) around. Oh, I'd buy out Roku just for funbecause I can:-) you did say money was object right? .it was fun dreaming for a while...:-) Cheers R -- Siriosys Siriosys's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=5154 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=24957 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
[SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Re: Help...not enjoying my SB3
Lyonesse Wrote: > Everyone is different and their listening approach is also different,I > dont wanna get bogged down with the do's and donts of my testing. The > squeezebook is another innovative but ultimately unmusical creation... > Ive gone over to laptop as pc server with a hagerman usb / spdif > converter, everything is again as it should be...ahhh :) Now just > waiting for my Altman attraction Dac to arrive and the SB3 will be just > a distant and slightly unpleasant memory. > > In fact Im selling it on Ebay atm... > > So bag yourself an austere thin sounding sibilent bargain! > > Jack. Oh, have you already... sold it? The only reason for properly functioning SB to sound bad is owner's technical ignorance, no offence intended of course. Audio world does require at least some basic knowledge of how things work, unless you allow someone knowledgeable to set up your system. All this story sounds like you sold bimmer because you found your civic to have a nicer door knob. -- 325xi 325xi's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=5661 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=24613 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
[SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Re: letter to Hi Fi News
Phil Leigh Wrote:
> This month a letter enquired as to the best lossless codec for sound
> quality on an SB3...at least they got the answer right (ie it doesn't
> matter so long as the SS/SB supports it).
>
> Expect next months letter to be which Ethernet cable sounds best, then
> which disk, PC/Mac etc etc
>
> Oh and by the way, I've decided to write/email to every magazine each
> time they suggest that a digital cable or transport can make audible
> differences in freq response ("better, deeper bass" for example) or
> anything that clearly isn't jitter-related. Call it a crusade...
Yeah, well..
Of course a lot of technical ignorants might listen for differences
that should be impossible. On the other hand, could you explain to me
how the FLAC gets converted to 16/44 inside the SB3 without -anything-
different going on compared to playing WAV?
--
P Floding
P Floding's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=2932
View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=25138
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[SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Re: letter to Hi Fi News
Be simple: try Leffe Blonde - just a couple of bottles applied on your CDs improves music transparency for 76%. -- 325xi 325xi's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=5661 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=25138 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
