Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Hypersonic effect: high frequency spectrum listening experience
opaqueice;352725 Wrote: > If it takes 10s of seconds for the brain to even respond to the HFS, > this is something that has little or nothing to do with hearing. Yes YES now we are on the same line again! True and part of the message from this study: we can't hear it! > Precisely what it is I wouldn't want to speculate - but to think it has > anything particular to do with music appreciation would be completely > unjustified. I'd like to see this test repeated with random test-tones > replacing the HF component. They do speculate with two scenario's in the "discussion" part of the paper and fully state it's nothing more than speculations. Also: replacing the HF component of the song with random HF test tones (sweeps even) might indeed produce the same results. I would believe it. I even suspect that the change in brain response is similar to adding a good drink/smoke to the sound. > I gave an example - perhaps HF ambient sound was absent in the testing > room, and so HF sound was present only when they played it, and further > perhaps that missing HF background somehow makes the subjects nervous. > Far-fetched? Sure - but so are the results. But how do you explain that when they repeat that test under the same conditions but with short samples (same song, same HF component) the results revert back to those from the other/older tests. The conditions you describe were present in both tests, if present at all. Clearly, only the sample length and interval time is different! Remember that both were double-blind tests under professional supervision and thus accurate. > HF tones produce all kinds of lower frequency components when played > over cheap computer speakers. When I did that test some time ago it > was easier to hear the 18kHz than the 16, and I'm certain that is not > because of some weird anomaly in my hearing response But the average persons hearing response isn't a nice one to start with, I mean, it's not like some electronic band-pass filter with smooth 3/6/9 dB cut-offs and linear response in between. Many people have problems hearing a tone of freq x but no trouble with x + b (a higher freq. I mean). When I listen to a constant dB level slow sweep over the entire range, I sense it as going up and down in volume multiple times. If the dB level goes down, parts become more difficult to hear, I think that this is normal. Humans ears don't get the quality control and consistency of some decent type of mics. Also, you need better PC speakers or a scope connected to check it out;-) > Very few people I know can hear NTSC TV screens - that goes even for > kids. And that's a little below 16kHz. True, although I think some of them can hear it but don't realize it is the sound you are talking about. But I was referring to the audiophile members here and we are not average nor normal... we have golden or at least silver ears! > It's certainly not bad news. I have no problem at all with hi-rez > formats - if you can do it, why not do it? And if it focuses attention > on sound quality that's good in my book. But I think there are many > other areas that are far more important and could gain much more from > this kind of attention (room effects, bass management, DSP, dynamic > compression, etc.). Glad to hear it, you had me a bit worried there ;-) But I am sure that these areas you mention get lots, if not more, attention too. I have bigger problems with the way most manufacturers of high-end audio kit operate. An example: I think that the members of this forum cooperating in a single thread, can come up with specs and even parts to use for a truly all-out DAC + pre-amp that can be manufactured for a fraction of the price of most "all-out" DAC's available now, and many still have serious flaws included with the ridiculous price they charge for it. We should do that and ask Sean what he thinks about (making) it! ciao! Nick. -- DeVerm DeVerm's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=18104 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=54077 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Whole house Amp
JJZolx;352728 Wrote: > How do sleep at night knowing there are people in this world listening > to less than stellar audio systems in their dining rooms and nurseries? I try not to think about it plus I would want a real powerfull system in the nursery! ;-) No, but seriously, this is the audiophile forum so IMO it's a logical place to give negative opinions on amps that can't be considered audiophile by far when one feels that way about the amp. When you read back my posts in this thread, I recommended Boom's which are less than stellar too and even, I almost don't dare to repeat it, decent active PC speakers. It's not about the absolute quality level itself, but about the lack of any level of quality requirement and the way one implements it. > I think what you're missing (not that anyone can convince you) is that > many people want neat, unobtrusive, whole house audio systems in their > homes. Some nearly invisible ceiling or in-wall speakers and a control > on the wall. Not an entire stereo system in every freaking room of the > house. To my own surprise I follow you here but only partly :) I would want neat, unobtrusive systems in most of my house (if I didn't live on a boat), but I disagree you need "whole-house" amps for that. And I would have nothing against in-wall speakers as long as they provide something more than the "Burger King PA sound". And if someone puts a "van Gogh" on the wall I can even understand it when they don't want a on-wall or in-wall speaker next to it. I do object to the idea that pulling speaker wires from the other side of the house into a room, plus installing in-wall volume controls is less work than finding an AC outlet or even adding one (and electrical codes do allow that even above the ceiling) plus finding an invisible spot for SB + active speakers. Or put a Boom in the bedroom instead and eliminate all work. And there are really nice and small amps available that one can hide from view in anything but a prison cell, although I would prefer active speakers and yes you can buy active in-wall and in-ceiling speakers with remote volume control too! Much better than that amp and wires and stuff. I would also end up with several different systems for different rooms because I would have different sonic requirements for them. I actually removed all cabin in-wall-volume-controls aboard Jedi. They were really nice, incl. switches for A/B speakers and even headphone sockets! Expensive stuff... but they were noisy and some emitted smoke somewhere down the road... I find it much more unobtrusive to have no such controls at all but use a wireless remote instead... plus it won't smoke or add noise! I really don't understand why someone would reject them and insist on in-wall volume controls instead. In another forum here I see photo's where people build a SB into the wall as the only visible evidence that there's an audio-system in the room. You can see what's playing and use the local IR remote not just for volume but for selecting music too. Or, if you don't even want to see that, it's easy to hide a very small SB receiver and some active (on/in wall/ceiling) speakers and you see nothing and use the SB controller for everything. I you don't want to carry these with you around the house, buy a couple extra. So, yes I prefer non obtrusive systems but no I don't want in-ceiling speakers nor in-wall volume controls and I consider a SB + active speakers not more a "entire stereo system in every freaking room" than I do passive speakers plus in-wall volume controls plus speaker wires to the other side of the house to a dingelingeling amp. I'll even go further and claim that the SB + active speakers is a much more neat and clean and better sounding system with less trouble and less installation time than the wires and in-wall volume controls and passive speakers setup. And I don't have to go to a "Pacific Rim Marketing" dealer to buy the amp because the sales droid that I would meet there is stuff for nightmares. You might also have noticed that I like spicy postings but don't worry, I laugh about myself and my posting too and they are never too hot for my taste... although I consider editing the "reason for editing" of my previous post if I figure out how to do that ;-) cheers, Nick. -- DeVerm DeVerm's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=18104 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=53288 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Video equivalent of Transporter
MusicAddict;352474 Wrote: > I don't (yet) own one of these, but my guess is that the Popcorn Hour > A-110 is the closest thing available. > > http://www.popcornhour.com > I agree that the popcorn hour (i own an A-100) is the closest thing you can buy todoy. The same applies to other sybas-based network players (iStar, Dune HD/BD whatever, ...) Although i don't know the venerable slimp3 player i would think video streamers are in the same age today: working but not near as mature as those Slim Players (+ Squeezecenter) are nowadays. What's similar: you can spend quite some time tweaking and expanding this system as there are a lot of 'addons' (http://code.google.com/p/moviejukebox/wiki/MovieJukebox) and an acitve 'community' (http://www.networkedmediatank.com/) Summary: As much as i'd like to see a network video streamer with the qualities of a transporter i don't think it's prime time(*) for these devices yet. kind regards, Markus (*) It's not the technical domain only but much more the content delivery part... -- schiegl schiegl's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=6654 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=54102 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Whole house Amp
DeVerm;352723 Wrote: > I still get a sick feeling in my stomach when I think of what you're > gonna build How do sleep at night knowing there are people in this world listening to less than stellar audio systems in their dining rooms and nurseries? > You now also make it sound like it's harder to find AC outlets around a > house than it is to find speaker wires in place in a star-configuration > between a cabinet and every room. I think what you're missing (not that anyone can convince you) is that many people want neat, unobtrusive, whole house audio systems in their homes. Some nearly invisible ceiling or in-wall speakers and a control on the wall. Not an entire stereo system in every freaking room of the house. -- JJZolx Jim JJZolx's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=10 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=53288 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Hypersonic effect: high frequency spectrum listening experience
By the way, I had a look at the citations to that paper. There are a total of 9 references in English which show up on google scholar, of which some are loudspeaker manufacturer white-papers, one is a description of the SACD standard, a few are by authors of the paper, and only one is a scientific paper by other authors (but at one of the same universities) - and it has nothing to do with HF sound audibility (I think the reference is due to some of the EEG techniques used). This for a paper from 2000. Now this isn't my field, but a paper with only a few self-cites, industry whitepapers, and a single more or less peripheral reference from one's colleagues after 8 years is a failure. It usually means the paper is believed to be wrong by everyone else in the field and hence is ignored. Oh - and ISI turns up this one as well: "Signal to noise: calculating the high-resolution-audio reality-to-hype ratio" which refers to it as well. > If the benefits of a migration beyond 16-bit, 44.1-kHz audio are so > obscure, then why do so many people claim that the new formats sound so > much better, especially when they're auditioning in nonideal listening > environments? One pragmatic answer is that brains are fickle organs; if > someone wants to believe that one thing is better than another, the > brain happily distorts its sensory inputs to create the desired result. > If you've just spent tens of thousands of dollars to upgrade your gear > and music collection, that investment can be a strong perception > incentive. http://www.edn.com/article/CA272755.html http://www.edn.com/article/CA276213.html -- opaqueice opaqueice's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=4234 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=54077 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Hypersonic effect: high frequency spectrum listening experience
DeVerm;352709 Wrote: > But that is just part 3 of this test and you conveniently leave out the > other 2 major parts so you can say the whole study is similar to > previous ones? That would not be correct. But I didn't say it > "It seems, therefore, that an exposure to FRS shorter than 20 s, as > recommended by the CCIR and ITU-R, may be insufficient to introduce a > physiological effect. By the same token, a short exposure to HCS > following FRS with a short interval of 0.5-1 s may not be enough to > withdraw physiological effects, if any, induced by the preceding FRS. > Based on this physiological consideration, we performed our > psychological experiment with sound materials of longer duration. " Let's examine that a little. If in fact this is the correct explanation, it only adds to the oddness of the result. If it takes 10s of seconds for the brain to even respond to the HFS, this is something that has little or nothing to do with hearing. Precisely what it is I wouldn't want to speculate - but to think it has anything particular to do with music appreciation would be completely unjustified. I'd like to see this test repeated with random test-tones replacing the HF component. > True, but when they make a big point of subject comfort on both EEG and > PET testing, one can assume they did the same for the subjective part. I'm perfectly willing to give them that - that wasn't my point. My point is that since this is such a bizarre result, and since they are really grasping at straws to try to account for it, one has to worry about all sorts of things that would normally be discarded. I gave an example - perhaps HF ambient sound was absent in the testing room, and so HF sound was present only when they played it, and further perhaps that missing HF background somehow makes the subjects nervous. Far-fetched? Sure - but so are the results. > From what I read in this forum, we all are blessed with an above average > hearing because we could all hear the 18 kHz sample in that on-line > test! I wouldn't count on it. HF tones produce all kinds of lower frequency components when played over cheap computer speakers. When I did that test some time ago it was easier to hear the 18kHz than the 16, and I'm certain that is not because of some weird anomaly in my hearing response (it's due to some weird anomaly in the crappy soundcard and speakers I was using). Very few people I know can hear NTSC TV screens - that goes even for kids. And that's a little below 16kHz. > So, in your world, is it bad news for people like Sean with hi-end audio > kit like the transporter, or just bye bye to SACD/DVD-audio? I hope your > world has a place for improvement because red book is definitely not the > best we can do now and certainly not the best for the future. It's certainly not bad news. I have no problem at all with hi-rez formats - if you can do it, why not do it? And if it focuses attention on sound quality that's good in my book. But I think there are many other areas that are far more important and could gain much more from this kind of attention (room effects, bass management, DSP, dynamic compression, etc.). -- opaqueice opaqueice's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=4234 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=54077 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Whole house Amp
xanadu;352214 Wrote: > I'm glad that a few people finally got it. Thanks for the input on the > other amps. > > I do have another listening area for "critical listening". I mentioned > this in this forum because I thought that some of the brighter members > would have an opinion on the amp. Instead a few found it necessary to > point out how antiquated it would be compared to buying 6 separate amps > and finding power for each amp/receiver throughout the house. Audiophile > doesn't mean "As complicated as you can make it". Well, as you can't let it rest I'll pop up again ;-) If you ask the readers of this audiophile forum for their opinions, you get them. Much better than a silent forum like you find with many other manufacturers, don't you agree? I was the first replying to your initial post and wrote that I wasn't hot for that amp and neither for the whole setup you proposed. I did think you were trolling too, but I said "sorry" after realizing you weren't. This was back in June and post #9 in this thread. And now you complain again that I, among others, don't share your view on this amp and/or setup. When you only want to hear opinions that include "oh and ah and wow and how wonderful" you should ask the question to the sales droids that sell the amp and not in this public forum. I still get a sick feeling in my stomach when I think of what you're gonna build and it's my right to do so and post about it here because you asked me to and even if you wouldn't have asked I can still write that without your approval. If you can't handle critical opinions, you should only ask people who love either you or what's in your wallet. I have nothing to gain from whatever you're gonna do so why do you take my honest opinion so personal? Believe me, it isn't. You now also make it sound like it's harder to find AC outlets around a house than it is to find speaker wires in place in a star-configuration between a cabinet and every room. You also make it sound like streamed audio (and SB in particular) was developed to put all your six SB's on a stack in a cabinet and run speaker wires through-out the house instead of streaming the audio to the room where one wants to listen to it. Or that people who buy an amplifier or active speakers for every room where they want to listen to music are stupid because it's obvious that a 12 channel whickywhack amplifier (that is sold mostly by discount-mart style shops, security firms and network consultants (hmmpff) in a small part of the world) is much better. You can suggest all that but the suggestions are surely wrong. But you can do it your way, I have no problem with that! Just don't jump on me because I think differently. And I'm sure the amp will be good enough for your sonic requirements too... cheers, Nick. -- DeVerm DeVerm's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=18104 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=53288 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Hypersonic effect: high frequency spectrum listening experience
opaqueice;352675 Wrote: > No, that's exactly what I said (several times already). The > questionnaire/listener response part of this study was more or less > identical - other than the length of the samples - to those previous > papers. Its results contradict those of the previous studies. Ah, you're talking about just the 3rd (minor) part of this test, the subjective evaluation part. I really missed that and you could have guessed because I was writing about the EEG and PET all the time. Indeed, they used a similar questionnaire and found a difference using longer samples and intervals than the other ones. But that is just part 3 of this test and you conveniently leave out the other 2 major parts so you can say the whole study is similar to previous ones? That would not be correct. But you also missed a very important part of that subjective testing, I quoted it before but you probably misread it as being the part you had in mind. So let's see what happened in this part 3 of the test. They had found an average 10's of seconds "delay" between starting the full-spectrum sound and the brain reacting. Same for stopping the sound or just cutting a component of it: the brain still went on in it's more-active state for an average 10's of seconds. These findings lead to this: "It seems, therefore, that an exposure to FRS shorter than 20 s, as recommended by the CCIR and ITU-R, may be insufficient to introduce a physiological effect. By the same token, a short exposure to HCS following FRS with a short interval of 0.5-1 s may not be enough to withdraw physiological effects, if any, induced by the preceding FRS. Based on this physiological consideration, we performed our psychological experiment with sound materials of longer duration. " And here we are: the subjects now hit the right targets in a subjective test too, like you say, contradicting previous tests that used the CCIR/ITU method of short samples and intervals. And now comes the part that you missed: They did another subjective test and I quote: "We also examined the psychological evaluation using the same material and sound presentation system as was used for the present study, but followed the presentation method recommended by the CCIR, and confirmed that the results were in agreement with the studies by Muraoka et al. (1978) and Plenge et al. (1979)." And what do we have now? When they use short samples and intervals like in all those previous tests, we get the same results as they did in those previous tests! And don't forget: they used double blind testing here! So --that-- is the reason I was saying that the results were -not- in disagreement with the previous tests. They repeated using the same procedure of those tests and got the same results as those tests. Only when they changed the test with the longer samples and intervals, they get different results. They confirmed that this was a result of the changed durations of samples and intervals. > That was for the EEG part of the experiment. As far as I can see they > never describe the conditions under which the questionairre part was > conducted. True, but when they make a big point of subject comfort on both EEG and PET testing, one can assume they did the same for the subjective part. It would not be logical to assume that they would radically change this. They went to great pains to check on comfort, even performing EEG scans while the subjects went into the "scary" PET scanner and eliminating the results of one subject whose EEG clearly showed he/she wasn't in love with the PET scanner or radio-active injection ;-) Also, we can assume that they did all subjective tests in the same room with the same conditions in which case they would not have been able to demonstrate the different outcome with short samples and intervals if what you say would be true so they eliminated that possibility by doing both subjective tests. > All natural sounds have harmonics. Precisely how much is present will > be a function of the specific environment. But just as an example, an > NTSC TV screen produces a sound around 16kHz (which I can hear, by the > way) plus harmonics. Computer monitors also produce HF sounds, as do > florescent lights, and probably lots of other household electronics. >From what I read in this forum, we all are blessed with an above average hearing because we could all hear the 18 kHz sample in that on-line test! But just to make sure: sounds from TV's, monitors, lights etc. are not natural sounds, they are all man-made. Also, most of these are of a stationary nature, like the 16 kHz NTSC we hear (PAL gives less discomfort btw). Also, the amplitude of these sounds are well below the dB level of the HF components of music used in the tests. The graph shows that the average dB level (avg for duration of the song) for say 20 kHz was -20 dB from the full-spectrum (which was played at 80 dB) which will be way louder than the emissions from TV's etc. But for all we know,
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Video equivalent of Transporter
The Apple TV is another such device... -- DCtoDaylight Audiophile wish list: Zero Distortion, Infinite Signal to Noise Ratio, and a Bandwidth from DC to Daylight DCtoDaylight's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=7284 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=54102 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Hypersonic effect: high frequency spectrum listening experience
DeVerm;352540 Wrote: > I agree with most you write, but your example would loose the "blind" > part of it as you can see which version has the higher sample-rate. > Also, for abx you would need three recordings of which two are the > same... Yes, you are correct, there does need to be a little bit of trust... You can't go looking at the file size, or bit rate. It doesn't show on the screen by default, and you have to promise not to go looking for it! FWIW, my mother was part of a double blind medical study, and really pissed off the organizer, by reading the label that was under the masking tape! But if you honestly want to find the truth, you have to resist temptation! Of course, comparing digital audio files under an ABX type system is relatively easy... Comparing equipment is much tougher! As I said at the onset, it's not easy to run this sort of test! Cheers, Dave -- DCtoDaylight Audiophile wish list: Zero Distortion, Infinite Signal to Noise Ratio, and a Bandwidth from DC to Daylight DCtoDaylight's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=7284 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=54077 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Hypersonic effect: high frequency spectrum listening experience
darrenyeats;352654 Wrote: > Whoa. Even die-hard red book fans, as you put it, have always known it > is possibly to hear the difference between red book and hi-rez -under > certain conditions.-. In this sense this study isn't really news. Correct, it's 8 year old news. But my question to you is: how can you stay a die-hard red book fan when, at the same time, you hear (as opposed to just knowing) that there's something better available? What's so special about red book that it is protected and cherished with an almost religious fanaticism? In my view, we can do away with it any time as soon as we have a better format for all the music I like. I like flac 24/48 much more. > The way I see it using "the gamelan music of Bali, which is extremely > rich in HFCs with a nonstationary structure" is a bit like playing > silence very loudly. It's trying to prove a point...but not a point I'm > interested in. I think you misread that part like they use some obscure instrument that will influence test results. They don't, see below: > What about some nice classical piece, aren't there enough instruments of > sufficient frequency range in there? Picking a genre like classical > because it has HF content is as far as I'm willing to go. Any more > picky than that and you're rigging the game so much I don't care about > the outcome. Gamelan music is popular in Asia and all the test-subjects were Asian and listen to that music at home too so it's not a rigged setup. They use mostly the same instruments that are used in Western classical music and I have no doubt that a western xylophone, violin or flute has comparable harmonics than the Asian version even though they look a bit different. But I knew the red book lovers & guardians were gonna find new arguments, the crusade is on! ;-) "A gamelan is a musical ensemble of Indonesia typically featuring a variety of instruments such as metallophones, xylophones, drums, and gongs; bamboo flutes, bowed and plucked strings, and vocalists may also be included." cheers, Nick. -- DeVerm DeVerm's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=18104 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=54077 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Hypersonic effect: high frequency spectrum listening experience
DeVerm;352595 Wrote: > Well, it seems that you insist that the methods used were the same as in > earlier studies so it's no use to keep arguing about this. But, for the > record, I state that studies by Muraoka et al. (1978) and Plenge et al. > (1979) did use questionnaires only and not EEG or PET scans of the > brain. The paper states that also. You disagree? No, that's exactly what I said (several times already). The questionnaire/listener response part of this study was more or less identical - other than the length of the samples - to those previous papers. Its results contradict those of the previous studies. > (you also never seem to answer the questions I post so it's impossible > to work down to the core of your disagreement... you evade.) No, you just don't read my posts. > You repeat again. Your AFAIK is fake because you know that "independent > of a subjective evaluation of sound quality" EEG and PET measurements > are differences too. I said "on the question/response part of the study". There is no point in continuing this if you don't even read what I write and instead attack something from your own imagination (as you have done repeatedly). > But now you say that they "probably used damped soundbooths" which isn't > trolling because I know you would never do that... but it feels like it > is anyway. That was for the EEG part of the experiment. As far as I can see they never describe the conditions under which the questionairre part was conducted. > You also say that normal listening environments have ambient HF but I > wonder how you know that or what it's source might be. Especially how > that would be at the dB levels of playing music. The only info I find > is that HF is present in natural environments like the rainforest, but > I assume that audiophiles prefer a non-natural environment like a house > (or boat). All natural sounds have harmonics. Precisely how much is present will be a function of the specific environment. But just as an example, an NTSC TV screen produces a sound around 16kHz (which I can hear, by the way) plus harmonics. Computer monitors also produce HF sounds, as do florescent lights, and probably lots of other household electronics. > Now the BIG question: do you hear a difference between 44 and 48/96 kHz > sampled music? Many, many audiophiles do and indeed, releasing these HD > formats more and more (now 5000 SACD titles and 5000 DVD-audio titles) > indicate that many prefer it. Why? There is no evidence for that assertion. Time and time again audiophiles have made such claims, only to fail completely when asked to distinguish blind. A recent case was the failure of hundreds of subjects tested over two years to distinguish between 16/44 and SACD. That study was much more directly relevant to home audio than this one. Not one subject succeeded. > Again you question the established EEG and PET scans. I'm simply applying precisely the same convoluted logic to the instruments the experimenters applied to human hearing. > Like I wrote before, these findings were 8 years ago and we have > accepted it and moved on to HD, no matter if you believe it or not. What world are you living in? In mine, hi-res audio formats are dead (albeit still twitching occasionally). -- opaqueice opaqueice's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=4234 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=54077 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Hypersonic effect: high frequency spectrum listening experience
Part of this study refers to the redbook upper frequency cut. Also, as I understand, part of this study refers to the ABX methodology. In my opinion, ABX tests and the statistical methodology that accompanies them are NOT DIRECTLY questioned in this experiment. Nevertheless, ABX tests are used to try to establish a difference or to establish the absence of a difference (similitude) among the way two reproduction machines can reproduce music. So we use sound samples as means of conducting these tests, then we proceed to the conclusion (are they similar or not). We knew _before_ this experiment that : - Frequency samples cannot be used to distinguish two reproduction machines using ABX tests. Explanation: A music message is a sum of primary (for instance: sinusoidal) sounds. This is similar to the way a D/A conversion works. One could think that if we can distinguish a difference using two frequency samples, then we can conclude that we can -logically- distinguish the resulting (as a sum) music. In fact, several tests (I participated myself in one of them) proved that we CANNOT distinguish two frequency-based sound samples reproduced by two different machines, even if we could distinguish (using the same ABX tests) these machines using normal (time-based) music samples. Why ? Simply because a human ear is NOT a linear measurement instrument. Not really a big discovery, some may say. Exactly: Oscilloscopes and other measurement instruments are much better than our ears. Conclusion: Never use frequency-based (primary) sounds to proceed to ABX tests: The results are irrelevant, the tests are void. But we have always thought that: - Duration samples (complex, but of a small duration) could be used to distinguish two reproduction machines using ABX tests. This experiment concludes that duration samples cannot be used to proceed to ABX tests, because the results _may_be_ irrelevant. Well what then ? What does it mean -may be- ? They are, or they are not ? In fact, as ABX tests use mathematical (statistical) methodology, the range rule apply: the measurement means MUST be absolute. No -maybe- is accepted, or the methodology is broken. Statistics need facts to work, not approximations. So, in fact, as this experiment establishes an approximation (or even -the not measurable possibility- of an approximation, if you are optimistic), the samples cannot be used anymore. Simple mathematics. So what ? No problem: It's enough to use longer, complex samples to validate the ABX tests, that's all. No problem, as I stated. On the other hand: any ABX test that doesn't use long, complex samples is void. We can't manipulate maths as we want, pity. :D -- Themis SB3 - North Star dac 192 - Denon 3808 - Sonus Faber Grand Piano Domus Themis's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=14700 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=54077 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Hypersonic effect: high frequency spectrum listening experience
DeVerm;352604 Wrote: > The simple fact that it happens remains and is only disputed by die-hard > red book fans Whoa. Even die-hard red book fans, as you put it, have always known it is possibly to hear the difference between red book and hi-rez -under certain conditions.-. In this sense this study isn't really news. The way I see it using "the gamelan music of Bali, which is extremely rich in HFCs with a nonstationary structure" is a bit like playing silence very loudly. It's trying to prove a point...but not a point I'm interested in. What about some nice classical piece, aren't there enough instruments of sufficient frequency range in there? Picking a genre like that because it has HF content is as far as I'm willing to go. Any more picky than that and you're rigging the game so much I don't care about the outcome. And before you say it Gamelan music isn't a genre (not one that means anything to me) any more than silence...or square waves for that matter. :^) Darren -- darrenyeats SB3 / Inguz -> Krell KAV-300i (pre bypass) -> PMC AB-1 Dell laptop -> JVC UX-C30 mini system darrenyeats's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=10799 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=54077 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Dead end or not...
seanadams;352328 Wrote: > But I give you props for creativity. :) But Sean, you could bundle it with an ultra-portable audiophile DAC with belt-clip, available in 6 colors! Also, you would want to add a newly developed, environment hardened toslink cable with the same color selection, plus an add-on for external video so that you can add the display-glasses as a future option, with Gucchi frame! cheers, Nick. -- DeVerm DeVerm's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=18104 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=54078 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Looking at SPDIF with a scope...
OK - I will post some pics tomorrow and try the 12k/48 wave. Thanks for your feedback. This is looking increasingly like a "bug" in the ASRC algorithm, at least to me! Some other fora have implied this might be the result of jitter folding back into the analogue domain as harmonic distortion... but I'm not convinced. I did try a toslink connection between the sb and TACT - no change whatsoever to the waveforms - so I don't think this is a jitter related phenomena. Cheers Phil -- Phil Leigh You want to see the signal path BEFORE it gets onto a CD/vinyl...it ain't what you'd call minimal...SB3+Stontronics PSU - Altmann JISCO/UPCI - TACT 2.2X (Linear PSU) + Good Vibrations S/W - MF Triplethreat(Audiocom full mods)- Linn 5103 - Aktiv 5.1 system (6x LK140's, ESPEK/TRIKAN/KATAN/SEIZMIK 10.5), Townsend Supertweeters, Kimber & Chord cables Outdoors: Boombox+Creative Sub (If I remember to turn it on...) Phil Leigh's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=85 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=53345 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Looking at SPDIF with a scope...
Phil Leigh;352422 Wrote: > 20kHz sine - looks like a perfect sine hmmm I had hoped it would not. This is evidence that we're not looking for a frequency related artifact. > 21Khz sine - Audacity can't go over 20kHz!!! double hmmm... we really need a > 22.050 kHz sine in 48 kHz sample rate to check what happens above 44.1 kHz sample-rate. It might just ditch it for all I know! The other hmmm is that we find more and more bugs, now it's audacity! > 10kHz square - as you predicted - one "valley" in the peak/trough of a > sine We really need a photo of this, with detail so put the scope's timebase so that we get only 1 cycle. We must see if there are any comparable artifacts in that 1 valley. > 12kHz square - nice 12kHz sine wave! Theory agrees with measurement, great! ;-) But this is only the sanity check for the next one: 12 kHz square at 48 kHz sample rate. It should then look exactly like the 10 kHz square at 44 kHz sample rate! cheers, Nick. -- DeVerm DeVerm's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=18104 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=53345 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Looking at SPDIF with a scope...
Phil Leigh;352432 Wrote: > Some more results: > > changing the sampling rate of the generated waveforms from 44.1 to 48 > makes no difference to any results! Well, then there's something wrong in either the test-setup or the TACT. I come to that conclusion because at 48 we should have up to 24 kHz frequency response which includes the 23f harmonic of the 1 kHz square wave. This means that the SB should show an additional harmonic-top. On the foto's from the 44 sample it was still easy to count the 11 tops. Can you confirm if you now see 12 or still 11? If 11, there's something wrong with the test. > I can't go to 96 because the SB3 doesn't support it! What? you have no transporter yet? ;-) How about a decent sound-card in the PC? This test is important because anything lower than 96 will be upsampled by the TACT as I understand it... > It looks like a component at roughly double the waveform frequence is > being superimposed on the ringing harmonics - as you said. Weird indeed. In analog electronics and at these low frequencies, it is normally feedback via the power supply. This can be helped by adding capacitors right at the components power-feed that experience this AM interference (like at OP-AMPS, easy to filter LF AC component when you only need DC) but this is all in the digital and software domain. I can only conclude that it is a flaw in the algorithm used (because it's still the 2nd harmonic when you change the frequency) and as it is in by-pass mode, it must be either the up-sampling algorithm or it isn't really in bypass (like the DSP is still in-line and processing but with a flat-response algorithm) and the DSP itself is flawed. I think it really is time for eBay and you can use the recovered funds for nice sound panels, bass-traps etc. Good WAF ! I scanned the net a bit and am I correct in my finding that the (or one of the) designers went his own way (in Denmark?) and is now selling a new product? (http://www.lyngdorf.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=19&Itemid=41) ciao! Nick. -- DeVerm DeVerm's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=18104 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=53345 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Hypersonic effect: high frequency spectrum listening experience
lanierb;352549 Wrote: > I'm jumping in late here, but is there a theory about how exactly these > high frequency harmonics make any difference to a human whose ears > can't render them? Clearly you can't feel them either as you can with > low frequency. Is there meant to be some other "sense" that picks them > up? Sounds crazy to me for this simple reason. > > Edit: OK I just found the other thread where at least one person raised > the issue already. Answer: there is no serious explanation, just wild > speculation. Exactly, there is no consensus whatsoever on explaining why this happens. The simple fact that it happens remains and is only disputed by die-hard red book fans of the Mr. O kind ;-) Another fact is that one can refuse to believe something forever and one can always find new objections and reasons for this not-believing-it. Some people still don't believe that man walked on the moon and no one can convince them that we did. But luckily, that doesn't stop progress too much so we now have HD music for sale and can play en enjoy it and send nifty little robots to Mars etc. cheers, Nick. -- DeVerm DeVerm's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=18104 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=54077 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Hypersonic effect: high frequency spectrum listening experience
opaqueice;352477 Wrote: > That's just... wrong. You're directly contradicting the authors of this > paper: Well, it seems that you insist that the methods used were the same as in earlier studies so it's no use to keep arguing about this. But, for the record, I state that studies by Muraoka et al. (1978) and Plenge et al. (1979) did use questionnaires only and not EEG or PET scans of the brain. The paper states that also. You disagree? Furthermore: this study used 200s samples (complete song) and 10s interval. I state (as does the paper) that the studies by Muraoka et al. (1978) and Plenge et al. (1979) did use 15-20s samples and 0.5s intervals. You disagree? (you also never seem to answer the questions I post so it's impossible to work down to the core of your disagreement... you evade.) Lastly, they did studies using EEG before (Oohashi et al. 1994) and the findings are in agreement with that study. > Those studies (probably among many others) showed that people cannot > distinguish between sounds including high frequencies and sounds not > including them. That *directly contradicts* the findings of this > study, and the method (on the question/response part of this research) > was essentially identical AFAIK. The only significant difference is > the length of the sample. You repeat again. Your AFAIK is fake because you know that "independent of a subjective evaluation of sound quality" EEG and PET measurements are differences too. I'll quote it here: "In our EEG and PET experiments, we focused on physiological brain responses and objectively evaluated the effect of the combination of audible sounds and inaudible HFCs on brain activity, independent of a subjective evaluation of sound quality." You also ignore the third part of the current study where they followed the same procedure as in the studies by Muraoka et al. (1978) and Plenge et al. (1979) and found the same results as they did in the 70's. > *Hypothesis*: people feel strange in environments (such as the damped > soundbooths this experiment probably used) with zero HFS present. > Adding HFS to music in an otherwise completely silent environment > "reassures" the brain that all is well, whereas playing only LFS leaves > this strange feeling. In a normal living-room type listening > environment with ambient HFS reproducing the HF content of music would > have no effect, because the background HFS field would "reassure" the > brain on its own. > > If that hypothesis is correct - and as far as I know it's consistent > with their data, even accepted at face value - these findings would > have no relevance whatsoever for home audio. You read the paper so you know that they describe the rooms where the tests were performed incl. the decorations, paintings on the wall and even the view from the window. But now you say that they "probably used damped soundbooths" which isn't trolling because I know you would never do that... but it feels like it is anyway. You also say that normal listening environments have ambient HF but I wonder how you know that or what it's source might be. Especially how that would be at the dB levels of playing music. The only info I find is that HF is present in natural environments like the rainforest, but I assume that audiophiles prefer a non-natural environment like a house (or boat). > Fact: neither people's brains nor conscious minds react to HFS alone. > > Claimed fact: people's brains and responses are different when exposed > to HFS+LFS versus LFS alone. It is not claimed anywhere that HF sound changes the brain. But it is an demonstrated fact that full range music results in a significant larger brain-response are shown by both EEG and PET scans as compared to the same music without the HF components. You can't accept that. But you --can-- accept that listening experience changes when you consume for example alcohol or have a good(!) smoke. Or that it changes in the presence of other fans of the song etc. In these cases, do you think that these factors change your ears? It is established that it doesn't change your ears but invokes other brain activity which, in combination with the music you hear, changes your listening experience. It's no different with this study when you replace the alcohol/smoke/fans with HF audio components. Now the BIG question: do you hear a difference between 44 and 48/96 kHz sampled music? Many, many audiophiles do and indeed, releasing these HD formats more and more (now 5000 SACD titles and 5000 DVD-audio titles) indicate that many prefer it. Why? > I repeat, how do you establish that the measuring gear you're using > doesn't exhibit this kind of non-linear response? You really can't > until you have a self-consistent theory for where the effect is coming > from, and so far there isn't one. Again you question the established EEG and PET scans. I wonder what you're gonna do if you would need any of these in a hospital? Question it's linear response with the docto
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Hypersonic effect: high frequency spectrum listening experience
Since sound is just air vibrating, I can't see no reason why your whole body - and not only your eardrums - could not act as a receptor. I believe skull bone is being used as a resonator for helping hearing-impaired people. Ever felt infra-basses in your stomach during a concert? It's not about hearing low or high frequencies, it's all about feeling them. -- sebp System : Mac Mini for ripping to FLAC (Max) > SqueezeCenter 7.2 running on a ReadyNAS NV+ Living room : Squeezebox 3 > North Star Model 192 > NuForce IA-7 v2 > KEF iQ9 Bedroom : Squeezebox 3 > Beresford DAC > NAD C315BEE > KEF iQ3 Kitchen : SB Receiver > Trends Audio TA10.1 > Celestion F10 'Last.fm' (http://www.last.fm/user/sebp) sebp's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=11768 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=54077 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Hypersonic effect: high frequency spectrum listening experience
I'm jumping in late here, but is there a theory about how exactly these high frequency harmonics make any difference to a human whose ears can't render them? Clearly you can't feel them either as you can with low frequency. Is there meant to be some other "sense" that picks them up? Sounds crazy to me for this simple reason. -- lanierb lanierb's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=5566 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=54077 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Hypersonic effect: high frequency spectrum listening experience
DeVerm;352540 Wrote: > I agree with most you write, but your example would loose the "blind" > part of it as you can see which version has the higher sample-rate. > Also, for abx you would need three recordings of which two are the > same... if I understand it all correctly. > > But again, I agree and one could be given 3 black boxes labeled A, B > and X with only on/off switch and analog output and let you play with > it for as long as you want. But, two years? after 2 years you would be > listening to obsolete stuff! > > cheers, > Nick. Nah - I'd probably still be listening to "Wish You Were Here" :o) -- Phil Leigh You want to see the signal path BEFORE it gets onto a CD/vinyl...it ain't what you'd call minimal...SB3+Stontronics PSU - Altmann JISCO/UPCI - TACT 2.2X (Linear PSU) + Good Vibrations S/W - MF Triplethreat(Audiocom full mods)- Linn 5103 - Aktiv 5.1 system (6x LK140's, ESPEK/TRIKAN/KATAN/SEIZMIK 10.5), Townsend Supertweeters, Kimber & Chord cables Outdoors: Boombox+Creative Sub (If I remember to turn it on...) Phil Leigh's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=85 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=54077 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Hypersonic effect: high frequency spectrum listening experience
DCtoDaylight;352310 Wrote: > Why not? Two full, album length recordings, each at different sample > rates. You are given two years to decide which is better... I didn't > say it was easy, what I said was it's possible. > > I see too many cases of people claiming ABX testing is flawed or can't > reveal the truth, when in fact, it isn't ABX testing that's at fault, > but rather it's a specific implementation that's at fault. I agree with most you write, but your example would loose the "blind" part of it as you can see which version as the higher sample-rate. Also, for abx you would need three recordings of which two are the same... if I understand it all correctly. But again, I agree and one could be given 3 black boxes labeled A, B and X with only on/off switch and analog output and let you play with it for as long as you want. But, two years? after 2 years you would be listening to obsolete stuff! cheers, Nick. -- DeVerm DeVerm's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=18104 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=54077 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Hypersonic effect: high frequency spectrum listening experience
sebp;352273 Wrote: > Could it be simply possible that Mr Oohashi, for this experiment, asked > Pioneer to manufacture speakers according to his specs?True. But after this > experiment, several manufacturers started producing super tweeters. It's quite common nowadays speakers (and headphones) delivering 30-50kHz. -- Themis SB3 - North Star dac 192 - Denon 3808 - Sonus Faber Grand Piano Domus Themis's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=14700 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=54077 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Hardware Upsamplers
krzys;352531 Wrote: > It has Wordclock in! I hacked it to input the clock signal from an > aftermarket clock installed in one of the DCXes ;-)) > And above that it is easy to resell > Chris Indeed - if only I had a DAC with word clock out! (one day) -- Phil Leigh You want to see the signal path BEFORE it gets onto a CD/vinyl...it ain't what you'd call minimal...SB3+Stontronics PSU - Altmann JISCO/UPCI - TACT 2.2X (Linear PSU) + Good Vibrations S/W - MF Triplethreat(Audiocom full mods)- Linn 5103 - Aktiv 5.1 system (6x LK140's, ESPEK/TRIKAN/KATAN/SEIZMIK 10.5), Townsend Supertweeters, Kimber & Chord cables Outdoors: Boombox+Creative Sub (If I remember to turn it on...) Phil Leigh's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=85 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=54066 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Hardware Upsamplers
It has Wordclock in! I hacked it to input the clock signal from an aftermarket clock installed in one of the DCXes ;-)) And above that it is easy to resell Chris -- krzys krzys's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=2256 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=54066 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Hardware Upsamplers
krzys;352524 Wrote: > I'm using it only to upsample to 48/24 from the SB to Behringer > DCxes*because it does it better than the DCXes themselves and it offers > the choice of three digital inputs > http://www.behringer.com/SRC2496/index.cfm?lang=ENG Well at £89.75+shipping it's certainly cheap enough to try! - thanks for the tip! Cheers Phil -- Phil Leigh You want to see the signal path BEFORE it gets onto a CD/vinyl...it ain't what you'd call minimal...SB3+Stontronics PSU - Altmann JISCO/UPCI - TACT 2.2X (Linear PSU) + Good Vibrations S/W - MF Triplethreat(Audiocom full mods)- Linn 5103 - Aktiv 5.1 system (6x LK140's, ESPEK/TRIKAN/KATAN/SEIZMIK 10.5), Townsend Supertweeters, Kimber & Chord cables Outdoors: Boombox+Creative Sub (If I remember to turn it on...) Phil Leigh's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=85 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=54066 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Hardware Upsamplers
I'm using it only to upsample to 48/24 from the SB to Behringer DCxes*because it does it better than the DCXes themselves and it offers the choice of three digital inputs http://www.behringer.com/SRC2496/index.cfm?lang=ENG -- krzys krzys's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=2256 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=54066 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Hardware Upsamplers
krzys;352512 Wrote: > I think the Behringer SRC can do that for a very low price. > Chris Chris - hmmm - yes I'd forgotten about the Behringer! Can I just use it to upsample without it doing anything else? -- Phil Leigh You want to see the signal path BEFORE it gets onto a CD/vinyl...it ain't what you'd call minimal...SB3+Stontronics PSU - Altmann JISCO/UPCI - TACT 2.2X (Linear PSU) + Good Vibrations S/W - MF Triplethreat(Audiocom full mods)- Linn 5103 - Aktiv 5.1 system (6x LK140's, ESPEK/TRIKAN/KATAN/SEIZMIK 10.5), Townsend Supertweeters, Kimber & Chord cables Outdoors: Boombox+Creative Sub (If I remember to turn it on...) Phil Leigh's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=85 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=54066 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Hardware Upsamplers
I think the Behringer SRC can do that for a very low price. Chris -- krzys krzys's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=2256 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=54066 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Hypersonic effect: high frequency spectrum listening experience
DeVerm;352261 Wrote: > > No, that "disagreed part" you mention was never tested before. The > subjects still can't hear the HFS part even when it's played together > with the LFS part... but --their brains react to it--. The scope of > previous tests never included that possibility and thus did not monitor > the brains of the subjects. When working from two different scopes like > that, you can't say that there is disagreement as the first test didn't > include this part. You can say that the first test missed it. That's just... wrong. You're directly contradicting the authors of this paper: > > -Explanation of the discrepancy between the present and previous > studies- > > The fact that we used an entire piece of natural music lasting 200 s as > sound stimuli instead of short fragments of sounds might explain the > discrepancy between our findings and those of previous studies carried > out around 1980 to determine the format for digital audio CDs (e.g., > Muraoka et al. 1978; Plenge et al. 1979), which concluded that the > presence of sounds containing a frequency range above 15 kHz was not > recognized as making a difference in sound quality. Those studies (probably among many others) showed that people cannot distinguish between sounds including high frequencies and sounds not including them. That *directly contradicts* the findings of this study, and the method (on the question part) is essentially identical AFAIK. The only significant difference mentioned is the length of the sample. Which brings up another problem with this. If the author's proposed explanation is correct (that the effects only manifest themselves over time periods of 10s of seconds), it's perfectly possible that -any- presence of HFS (regardless of whether it's harmonically related to the music) could activate these beneficial effects. In other words... *Hypothesis*: people feel strange in environments (such as the damped soundbooths this experiment probably used) with zero HFS present. Adding HFS to music in an otherwise completely silent environment "reassures" the brain that all is well, whereas playing only LFS leaves this strange feeling. In a normal living-room type listening environment with ambient HFS no such effect would take place, because the background would "reassure" the brain anyway. If that hypothesis is correct - and as far as I know it's consistent with their data, even accepted at face value - these findings would have no relevance whatsoever for home audio. > > Nack. Why is this bizarre? Fact: neither people's brains nor conscious minds react to HFS alone. Claimed fact: people's brains and responses are different when exposed to HFS+LFS versus LFS alone. That's very weird. It's the kind of thing that is out there enough that it could have many potential explanations (for example the one I gave above). Once you allow for possibilities like that, everything should be questioned - for example, I repeat, how do you know that the measuring gear you're using doesn't exhibit this kind of non-linear response too? -- opaqueice opaqueice's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=4234 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=54077 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Video equivalent of Transporter
I don't (yet) own one of these, but my guess is that the Popcorn Hour A-110 is the closest thing available. http://www.popcornhour.com Check out the review at http://reviews.cnet.co.uk/accessories/0,39100116,49298605,00.htm and the review "The best media streamers" at http://reviews.cnet.co.uk/accessories/0,39100116,49299176,00.htm. Enjoy ;-) -- MusicAddict -- Duet, SB3, DS207 mit SSODS. Duet: manchmal etwas hakelig. DS 207: etwas lahm. SB3:super. Insgesamt: ein Traum ;-) MusicAddict's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=20459 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=54102 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Hardware Upsamplers
DCtoDaylight;352308 Wrote: > It would be interesting to know what chip it uses for the data rate > conversion. There are only a handful of devices on the market that do > this, unless they've taken in inboard on an FPGA, and I would think you > can draw some broad similarities between products using the same IC's. That's a good point... I wonder if they will tell me what chip is in it...? -- Phil Leigh You want to see the signal path BEFORE it gets onto a CD/vinyl...it ain't what you'd call minimal...SB3+Stontronics PSU - Altmann JISCO/UPCI - TACT 2.2X (Linear PSU) + Good Vibrations S/W - MF Triplethreat(Audiocom full mods)- Linn 5103 - Aktiv 5.1 system (6x LK140's, ESPEK/TRIKAN/KATAN/SEIZMIK 10.5), Townsend Supertweeters, Kimber & Chord cables Outdoors: Boombox+Creative Sub (If I remember to turn it on...) Phil Leigh's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=85 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=54066 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
[SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Video equivalent of Transporter
Hi all, does a video equivalent of a TP / SB exist ? if yes which one is the best ? -- pkfox When the going gets weird - the weird turn pro. Hunter S Thompson CD's -> EAC/Grip -> ReadyNas NV -> CAT5 -> Sonicwall -> TP -> Meridian 551 -> Monitor Audio Gold -> Me :-) pkfox's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=5346 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=54102 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Can THIS be integrated with SlimServer?
pkfox;352393 Wrote: > Interesting, have you set it up yet (LinuxMCE) also, how can it possibly > turn off lights etc... ? No, I use the Original SlimServer :) LinuxMCE is very cool open source project, but it does too much things for my humble needs. But I do use Z-Wave to setup lights etc in my listening room, and to cut TV in the next room You just need these http://www.automatedoutlet.com/home.php?cat=6 modules to control everything. For automatic control one would need Windows PC running 24/7, which I don’t like. So this new Vera product does the same and more running in a tiny box. SlimServer could easily issue commands to Vera to prepare your house for listening – simple http requests. And when you're done it could restore previous state - lights etc. It's just a matter of any of developers to get interested in this kind of integration. -- 325xi ( sb3 >> stello da220mkii || simaudio nova cdp ) >> simaudio moon i-5 >> revel performa m20 on *skylan* stands via acoustic zen matrix reference ii and acoustic zen satori sb3 >> audioengine 5 325xi's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=5661 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=53854 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Looking at SPDIF with a scope...
Some more results: changing the sampling rate of the generated waveforms from 44.1 to 48 makes no difference to any results! I can't go to 96 because the SB3 doesn't support it! Below roughly 750 Hz the squarewaves coming out of the TACT and SB look pretty much the same (it's quite hard to tell) but as you go up to 1k, 2h and so on the differences become more obvious and are just like that photo I posted earlier in the thread. It looks like a component at roughly double the waveform frequence is being superimposed on the ringing harmonics - as you said. Weird! -- Phil Leigh You want to see the signal path BEFORE it gets onto a CD/vinyl...it ain't what you'd call minimal...SB3+Stontronics PSU - Altmann JISCO/UPCI - TACT 2.2X (Linear PSU) + Good Vibrations S/W - MF Triplethreat(Audiocom full mods)- Linn 5103 - Aktiv 5.1 system (6x LK140's, ESPEK/TRIKAN/KATAN/SEIZMIK 10.5), Townsend Supertweeters, Kimber & Chord cables Outdoors: Boombox+Creative Sub (If I remember to turn it on...) Phil Leigh's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=85 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=53345 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Looking at SPDIF with a scope...
DeVerm;352213 Wrote: > Same here, sorry Phil. Will start a separate thread next time and stop > off-topic posts here. > > Actually, I have been thinking about your problem. My observation from > your photo's is that the tops from the 5th-7th harmonics are clearly > missing from the square wave. As the fundamental was 1 kHz, this is the > harmonics at 5, 7 and 9 kHz. I also read that you checked at different > amplitude levels and frequencies and that the pictures were the same. I > would propose this: > > 1. check those pictures for the different frequencies again or may be > you remember this detail clearly still. If that 5th-7th harmonic is > still the missing, it is not frequency related but algorithm related. > If it's also the same for lower amplitudes, we can assume that it's a > core-bug in the algorithm and not just an amplitude-related artifact of > overflow etc. > > 2. I am still curious on the TACT picture of a pure sine 21 kHz signal > because it will show what the TACT does with signals at the limits of > the 44 kHz sample rate. I mean, it will up-sample it, after which it > isn't close to the limit anymore. The question is if distortion appears > before, during or after the up-sampling. If we see any distortion here, > it would point to a bug before or during up-sampling. > > 3. test with a 21 kHz sine but in a 48 kHz sample-rate file. Again for > 96 kHz rate. Just to make sure it isn't a frequency limit. > > 4. Did you do the 1 kHz squarewave with 48 and 96 kHz files? I assume > the TACT up-samples to 96 kHz? And I assume it doesn't up-sample if the > input is 96 kHz already because I wouldn't know how that would be done. > This will show several things: > > The middle of the squarewave isn't the 5th-7th harmonics anymore > because we go beyond the 11f harmonic for the higher sample-rates. So, > if it's still missing the "center" tops instead of the 5th-7th tops, > the error is independent from input-signal > > If the 5th-7th harmonic is still missing (the flattened part moves left > of center square-top), we must re-evaluate our thinking ;-) > > A final set of test-signals would be a 10 and a 12 kHz squarewave as 44 > kHz sample-rate. The 10 should show one big valley between two tops and > the 12 kHz should show... a sine? See if there still is that same > distortion. > > cheers, > Nick. Nick - some results for you to ponder :o) 16-bit wav files, 44.1kHz sampling rate 1) 20kHz sine - looks like a perfect sine 2) 21Khz sine - Audacity can't go over 20kHz!!! 3) 10kHz square - as you predicted - one "valley" in the peak/trough of a sine 4) 12kHz square - nice 12kHz sine wave! 5) 1500Hz square - very similar to 1k 6) reducing the level of the generated waveforms makes no difference to their shapes - doesn't seem to be a level-related phenomena I'm going to try the 48kHz sampling next Regards Phil -- Phil Leigh You want to see the signal path BEFORE it gets onto a CD/vinyl...it ain't what you'd call minimal...SB3+Stontronics PSU - Altmann JISCO/UPCI - TACT 2.2X (Linear PSU) + Good Vibrations S/W - MF Triplethreat(Audiocom full mods)- Linn 5103 - Aktiv 5.1 system (6x LK140's, ESPEK/TRIKAN/KATAN/SEIZMIK 10.5), Townsend Supertweeters, Kimber & Chord cables Outdoors: Boombox+Creative Sub (If I remember to turn it on...) Phil Leigh's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=85 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=53345 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Can THIS be integrated with SlimServer?
325xi;350629 Wrote: > Yeah, I intended to post it in General forum, but hit Audiophile by > mistake :) > > But have you guys heard about how LinuxMCE integrates SlimServer into > its whole? So this one could be even more elegant. They prepare a IR > controller linked to that box, which would allow to program AV > controlling in a way similar to Logitech remotes, but integrated with > the rest of the home - press one button, and it not just turns on your > SB, amp, and selects input, but also turns off AC and dim lights. And > also can reduce TV volume in the next room so it won't disturb > listening, and turn off TV in kids room so they finally go to bed :) Interesting, have you set it up yet (LinuxMCE) also, how can it possibly turn off lights etc... ? -- pkfox When the going gets weird - the weird turn pro. Hunter S Thompson CD's -> EAC/Grip -> ReadyNas NV -> CAT5 -> Sonicwall -> TP -> Meridian 551 -> Monitor Audio Gold -> Me :-) pkfox's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=5346 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=53854 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Dead end or not...
seanadams;352327 Wrote: > OP wants a mini-jack with toslink, like apple uses. Interesting mod > opportunity I guess, but I fail to imagine any general appeal for that > in a mobile product. This is why it's usually bundled with an SBR. Ah, yeah that makes sense now. I had no idea apple did this. I could understand wanting (or some sort of digital anyway) from the bottom connector, but not really from the headphone jack. -- funkstar funkstar's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=2335 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=54078 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Looking at SPDIF with a scope...
DeVerm;352231 Wrote: > Another thought: > > Your scope should have a test-square-wave output on the front. It's > analog and you should calibrate your probes on it using the little > adjustment-screw (capacitor). > > Also, something that Mr. O observed already > (http://forums.slimdevices.com/showpost.php?p=348946&postcount=46) but > I'd like to repeat it here because it's the 2nd more obvious part of > the distortion: > > 1. phase distortion. When you bring that to the picture, it means that > the tops are not horizontal anymore. Look at fig. 6.7 here: > http://www.tpub.com/neets/book23/101a.htm > You normally get this when passing the signal through a filter and the > higher the order of the filter, the more tilted it gets. But where's > the filter in the TACT? (a digital software filter shouldn't do that > and I'm not familiar enough with DSP's to tell if they cause phase > distortion like this...) > > 2. AM modulation. The 2 kHz modulation is obvious and this is the 2nd > harmonic of the fundamental. Measuring at different frequencies will > show if it's a persistant 2nd harmonic modulation. I have no clue yet > where this can come from... > > cheers, > Nick. Nick - thanks - I will check the scope calibration Arguably the TACT is one big fliter - but when in bypass mode the digital filter has its co-effecients set to zero so it should just pass through.. I'll post some more pictures later thanks Phil -- Phil Leigh You want to see the signal path BEFORE it gets onto a CD/vinyl...it ain't what you'd call minimal...SB3+Stontronics PSU - Altmann JISCO/UPCI - TACT 2.2X (Linear PSU) + Good Vibrations S/W - MF Triplethreat(Audiocom full mods)- Linn 5103 - Aktiv 5.1 system (6x LK140's, ESPEK/TRIKAN/KATAN/SEIZMIK 10.5), Townsend Supertweeters, Kimber & Chord cables Outdoors: Boombox+Creative Sub (If I remember to turn it on...) Phil Leigh's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=85 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=53345 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Dead end or not...
funkstar;352278 Wrote: > I don't even *understand* this post :) > > What were you expecting, or hoping for, when you took a photo of the > mini jack? It's mostly ramblings anyway. I assumed toslink used infrared light or something like that. But someone told that the light in toslink is visible, so forget about that. And yes, what I was querying about was the possibility of digital out from the Controller. If not for nothing else than as a fun exercise. Bjorn -- bhaagensen bhaagensen's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=7418 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=54078 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
