Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] SPDIF is evil
netchord;486194 Wrote: > > i understand the XLR *output* of the transporter is much better than > either SPDIF output. is the same true of the XLR *input*? Sean who designed the TP stated otherwise quite recently. The AES/EBU output is not as good (or at least no better) than the coax s/pdif, with the toslink the worst. How much this matters depends on your DAC. -- Phil Leigh You want to see the signal path BEFORE it gets onto a CD/vinyl...it ain't what you'd call minimal... SB Touch Beta (wired) - TACT 2.2X (Linear PSU) + Good Vibrations S/W - MF Triplethreat(Audiocom full mods) - Linn 5103 - Aktiv 5.1 system (6x LK140's, ESPEK/TRIKAN/KATAN/SEIZMIK 10.5), Townsend Supertweeters, Blue Jeans Digital,Kimber Speaker & Chord Interconnect cables Kitchen Boom, Outdoors: SB Radio Phil Leigh's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=85 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=71464 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Will a transporter sound as good as the Linn Majik DS
kphinney;486089 Wrote: > Yet you still insist that I can't make a valid judgment without an SPL? > I prefer to go with what my ears want, not engineers from Linn or MD PhD > BA and Total BS self proclaimed experts whom have never sat in my > chair. > > Tom for President!!! He's magic and knows all!!! Look, it is well established that we often will ascribe a qualitative difference to a difference in SPL. We perceive louder as better. If you don't equalize volume levels with an SPL you can't be sure you are not just hearing that difference rather than a qualitative diff. This is very basic. If you can't accept that then I will glady sell you snake oil and laugh all the way to the bank. It is obvious that your opinion of gear is based more on bias than any kind of minimally controlled comparisons. But hey, be an audio fool and waste your money, that is your right. You have come across with a bullying, arrogant attitude telling audiomuze he was off topic when he wasn't. You don't get to censor or control threads. That is a job for moderators. -- tomjtx tomjtx's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=7449 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=60169 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Will a transporter sound as good as the Linn Majik DS
JezA;486200 Wrote: > tomjtx .. I can't find any reference to or use of the "PRAT" - pace, > rhythm and timing - phrase on the Linn website or in any of their > marketing material. I think this was a phrase that some hifi journalists > invented some years ago, and is more commonly associated with NAIM > equipment. Jeza , maybe so. The Linn guys do hype prat when they give the demos I have attended. That and "follow the tune"...toe tapping bs. -- tomjtx tomjtx's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=7449 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=60169 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Will a transporter sound as good as the Linn Majik DS
JezA;486200 Wrote: > tomjtx .. I can't find any reference to or use of the "PRAT" - pace, > rhythm and timing - phrase on the Linn website or in any of their > marketing material. I think this was a phrase that some hifi journalists > invented some years ago, and is more commonly associated with NAIM > equipment. Yeah, he actually means Linn's Tune Dem. Can't blame him for lack of research - too busy prattling himself. -- kphinney -I like it, you may not. I understand and respect that.- kphinney's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=10409 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=60169 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Will a transporter sound as good as the Linn Majik DS
tomjtx .. I can't find any reference to or use of the "PRAT" - pace, rhythm and timing - phrase on the Linn website or in any of their marketing material. I think this was a phrase that some hifi journalists invented some years ago, and is more commonly associated with NAIM equipment. -- JezA JezA's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=21219 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=60169 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] SPDIF is evil
back in the day, i recall the original Proceed transport and DAC (the PDT and PDP)had Toslink, COAX, and Balanced connections, as well as a proprietary Proceed connection that used a special glass cable (the connector was not toslink). i spent an afternoon listening, and thought the sound of the proceed connection and XLR were very close, with the latter being perhaps slightly better (and susceptible to tweaking with different cables). COAX and Toslink were 3rd and 4th, respectively. i understand the XLR *output* of the transporter is much better than either SPDIF output. is the same true of the XLR *input*? -- netchord netchord's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=21002 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=71464 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] SPDIF is evil
There's the audiophile spirit - Why try, you probably can't hear the difference anyway! -- miklorsmith miklorsmith's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=4349 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=71464 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Audiophile Music File Protection
sfraser;486028 Wrote: > My neighbor and I upgraded our CAT5E buried service cable between our > houses from 100M to GE. Both of us have a Ubuntu Server with identical > large LVM file systems and plan on using the rsync application to keep > video and audio files syncronised between the two servers... We hope > this will provide us a decent level of redundancy. Wow, that sounds like a robust setup (unless a tornado takes out your whole neighborhood). -- TiredLegs TiredLegs's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=6201 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=42358 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] SPDIF is evil
Yes of course , my SPDIF and AES outputs on all my gear sound like doo doo and adopting one of these newfangled not a hope in hell chance of being adopted universally schemes is going to transform my system , hell even my wife would be able to hear the difference...from the next room.. :) -- Rodney_Gold Sb3/Z-sys RDP1/meridian DSP5500's TP/X-cans v3/Senns 650's TP/SCM 50a's SB3/Meridian DSP5000's TP/PS audio perfectwave DAC/woo audio Wa2 Headphone amp/Sehneisser Hd800's "The nicest thing about smacking your head against the wall is...the feeling you get when you stop" Rodney_Gold's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=14618 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=71464 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Will a transporter sound as good as the Linn Majik DS
kphinney;486089 Wrote: > Yet you still insist that I can't make a valid judgment without an SPL? > I prefer to go with what my ears want, not engineers from Linn or MD PhD > BA and Total BS self proclaimed experts whom have never sat in my > chair. > > Tom for President!!! He's magic and knows all!!! Hmmm, perhaps he just knows an audiofool when he encounters one -- audiomuze audiomuze's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=33613 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=60169 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] SPDIF is evil
radish;486139 Wrote: > You mean a Transporter, right? I believe the Transporter's clock input is wordclock? Frequencies are based on the sampling rate, in the kilohertz range? The Lessloss solution operates in the superclock/megahertz range, which they believe is better. I'm a technical idiot, but I believe the Transporter's system is different. JohnSwenson - that sounds very neat! -- miklorsmith miklorsmith's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=4349 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=71464 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] SPDIF is evil
Even though I'm generally in the "evil S/PDIF" camp my latest DAC actually uses S/PDIF (coax or optical). But I'm using both an in and an out stream. The DAC generates a stream that is has all zeros for data, this is fed to a soundcard that can sync its output stream to an incoming stream. It doesn't matter how good or bad the cables are etc since the timing on the S/PDIF links is not used for anything. The Local oscillators in the DAC are used to drive the DAC chips. By doing this I get to use an asynchronous interface without having to write any drivers, the soundcard manufacturer takes care of that for me. The best interface would be for something like the Touch to have clock inputs (NOT a word clock) that drive in instead of its local crystals, nothing other than a switch needed. The data can still go out over the existing digital outs. This automatically syncs it up to the device generating the external clocks and it can still switch between sample rates. The receiving DAC will have to look at its incoming stream and figure out what the sample rate is so it can choose the right clock to use, but that is not particularly difficult. As for a new interface I'm actually working on one based on netjack (network protocol for the jack server) which is a very simple protocol using UDP, its simple enough that it can be implemented entirely in a cheap FPGA. It uses standard network infrastructure so you can use regular ethernet cable, switches etc. It doesn't just have to use special hardware, it uses standard low level protocols so a computer can talk this directly out of its existing Ethernet port. The protocol was designed for studio use so it supports many channels and sample rates. Its not just a one to one system, you can have many different devices connected to the same network and route audio data between them. John S. -- JohnSwenson JohnSwenson's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=5974 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=71464 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] SPDIF is evil
pfarrell;486152 Wrote: > > Why would you suggest an asynchronous protocol? The whole problem, if > there is any, with jitter is that its not synchronized well enough. > Because carrying the signal asynchronously as far as possible in the chain is a simple solution which by definition avoids any (replay-chain) generated jitter, since there won't be any. It has to get synchronous at some point, but this should be as close to the dac-chip as possible. At least in the "same box" so that the DAC, "source point" and the bus connecting them can be driven off the same crystal. Thats IMO the best solution, since its a solution by design and hardware wise it should be a no-brainer today... -- bhaagensen bhaagensen's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=7418 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=71464 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] SPDIF is evil
bhaagensen wrote: > TCP/IP could be one choice, but its probably too complicated and > overkill (i.e. does too many things). Asynchronous USB could be another > choice, which I believe is already used in some transports/dacs today. > Such a choice would also narrow the "compatibility" gap with a lot of > present equipement. In terms of needed hardware it would be dead cheap I > believe. Why would you suggest an asynchronous protocol? The whole problem, if there is any, with jitter is that its not synchronized well enough. Just include a clock signal with the existing data signal, and joy and happyness. > HDMI well if becomes a political matter, I'm sure all is set for a > catfight. Yeah, anytime you get the record industry and the movie industry into technology, its very ugly. -- Pat Farrell http://www.pfarrell.com/ ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] SPDIF is evil
Finding a replacement protocol for spdif isn't, and shouldn't, be a complicated technical matter. The only thing needed is a properly asynchronous protocol. There are lots of them, but why not choose something which can be implemented using off-the-shelf components. TCP/IP could be one choice, but its probably too complicated and overkill (i.e. does too many things). Asynchronous USB could be another choice, which I believe is already used in some transports/dacs today. Such a choice would also narrow the "compatibility" gap with a lot of present equipement. In terms of needed hardware it would be dead cheap I believe. HDMI well if becomes a political matter, I'm sure all is set for a catfight. -- bhaagensen bhaagensen's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=7418 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=71464 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] SPDIF is evil
miklorsmith;486126 Wrote: > I have two other, more-typical SB3s but it would be great if a single > unit could be bought off the shelf that would give either option. You mean a Transporter, right? -- radish 'HELP ME RAISE MONEY FOR CHILDREN'S CANCER RESEARCH!' (HTTP://WWW.ADAMREEVE.COM/24IN24/) http://www.last.fm/user/polymeric radish's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=77 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=71464 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] SPDIF is evil
My big-rig setup includes a hacked SB3 with all analog circuitry removed that has been converted entirely to a bit-server. Its secondary clock has been removed and the master clock bypassed to an additional connector on the outside of the unit. It cannot run without an outboard clock signal, and was modded with my Lessloss DAC as clock. The Lessloss unit can operate in 'slave' mode, i.e. normal spdif mode, or it can act as clock-master with 'data in' and 'clock out'. The DAC replaces the transport superclock signal, these guys are WAY into the question of clocking,jitter, and solutions: http://www.lessloss.com/page.html?id=41 http://www.lessloss.com/page.html?id=33 http://www.lessloss.com/page.html?id=42 It takes two digital cables to run, one for data and the other for clock, so a little more complex. The SB3 mod was pretty cheap, a couple hundred bucks of a modder's time - that's the good news. The bad news is the DAC isn't cheap, about $4,500 today. Hey this IS the audiophile forum. :) The results are quite special. I've had quite a group of nice DACs and CDPs through the house and this is the best I've heard. I have a modded Rega CD transport that can take advantage of the feature too, though they now recommend CEC transports which have the clock input feature standard. It wouldn't be that hard for manufacturers to include the master-clocking feature Without any change in format. The connectors are the same, the data and clock streams are the same - just separated. In my experience it's completely worthwhile to do this but honestly, even the audiophile folks aren't talking about it. -- miklorsmith miklorsmith's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=4349 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=71464 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] SPDIF is evil
I too think we are stuck with SPDIF which is unfortunate. It appears the two remedies are to employ an external clock to hopefully counter the woes that the flawed SPDIF protocol may impart on the sound you hear or to put everything into one box in order to avoid SPDIF in the first place. -- Pneumonic Main: Transporter Squeezebox 3 > Metric Halo ULN2 > Sonic Frontiers Ultra Jitterbug > Roksan DAC/PS Modwright Sony SCD 777ES Sonic Frontiers SFL-2 Preamp Quicksilver Silver 90 Mono Power amps Martin Logan CLS IIa Speakers Office: Squeezebox 3 > Lite Audio DAC60 Muse Model One Preamp Quicksilver 8417 Mono Power amps Vandersteen 2Ci Speakers Pneumonic's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=10091 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=71464 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] [SPAM] Re: Will a transporter sound as good as the Linn Majik DS
On 16/11/09 17:39, kphinney wrote: > > tomjtx;486086 Wrote: >> The recording engineers aren't necessarily the one's that came up with >> that silly PRAT terminology. >> Besides, they are engineers, not musicians. >> >> I have been a[ yadda yadda yadda...] As a trained musician I find >> myself feeling embarased for the Linn "engineers" when they display >> there utter lack of musical knowledge. > > Yet you still insist that I can't make a valid judgment without an SPL? He's right. All other things being equal, louder will sound better, so it's important to level match before comparing. Otherwise, you could just be determining which option is the higher level. > I prefer to go with what my ears want Right, this is the only really valid approach. Your ears are the most important judge. However, it is important to understand their limitations, and how easily they are fooled by your brain. Hence the need to eliminate expectation bias. > not engineers from Linn or MD PhD BA and Total BS forum trolls. Tom is not a troll. Please open your mind to the advice you're being given, rather than fighting it. R. ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] SPDIF is evil
pfarrell;486088 Wrote: > Is I2S related to I2C? I2C is used all over the place. Not really... I2C is a general purpose, two wire buss, clock and data, with formats for addressing different devices on the buss etc. I2S is a much simpler three wire interface, with a bit clock, a L/R word clock, and a data signal. Cheers, Dave -- DCtoDaylight Audiophile wish list: Zero Distortion, Infinite Signal to Noise Ratio, and a Bandwidth from DC to Daylight DCtoDaylight's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=7284 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=71464 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Will a transporter sound as good as the Linn Majik DS
tomjtx;486086 Wrote: > The recording engineers aren't necessarily the one's that came up with > that silly PRAT terminology. > Besides, they are engineers, not musicians. > > I have been a[ yadda yadda yadda...] As a trained musician I find > myself feeling embarased for the Linn "engineers" when they display > there utter lack of musical knowledge. Yet you still insist that I can't make a valid judgment without an SPL? I prefer to go with what my ears want, not engineers from Linn or MD PhD BA and Total BS forum trolls. Tom for President!!! He's magic and knows all!!! -- kphinney -I like it, you may not. I understand and respect that.- kphinney's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=10409 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=60169 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] SPDIF is evil
Rodney_Gold wrote: > With 99% of all music lovers thinking that Mp3 is as good as it gets and > with 20+ years of legacy products using the evil spdif, what chance is > there of mnfgrs introducing yet ANOTHER digital standard? > Do you think another digital audio transmission interface would make > such a massive difference to sound quality that its really justified? > > from .sig > meridian DSP5500's Folks who are willing to pay for Meridian gear would gladly pay for it. The MP3 is good enough folks will assume we are all from Mars. But this is the audiophiles list. we are all a bit weird already. And we can dream. A large percentage of current SPDIF users don't care much about audio quality. Most that are used are in home theater rigs, where volume of booms is much more critical. Additionally, I'd bet that most folks who own gear with SPDIF connectors never use them, they have been standard on motherboards for years. -- Pat Farrell http://www.pfarrell.com/ ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Will a transporter sound as good as the Linn Majik DS
JezA;485941 Wrote: > tomjtx, the Linn engineers who you call "musically illiterate" include > guys who have made award winning classical music and jazz recordings. > > Why don't you get your facts right before you hurl abuse? > > What recordings have you made, that we may judge your competence from? > > What other top-end hi-fi company has made such a large body of high > quality recordings? The recording engineers aren't necessarily the one's that came up with that silly PRAT terminology. Besides, they are engineers, not musicians. I have been a professional classical guitarist for over 30 years, am internationally active and have years of ear training and grad degrees. Western classical music invented a descriptive terminology hundreds of years ago that is now in worldwide use. We have a vocabulary of expression in music that has extraordinary breadth and depth. I have Doctoral, Masters and Bachelor students from all over the word and teaching them the subtle differences that exist between ,for example, a ritard and ritennuto, is part of the job. If one can name an expressive device and think it then it is easier to hear it. Learning the expressive vocabulary make one a more astute and satisfied listener. It also makes one a more discerning judge of the "musicality" of a stereo system. Using PRAT is akin to relying on a blind mans description of a painting. Linn would have been well advised to learn that terminology to hone their listening skills. That is , if they were sincere in their effort. It is obvious that PRAT is just another marketing gimmick to delude musically uneducated people to buy overpriced Linn gear. I have attended Linn demos. As a trained musician I find myself feeling embarased for the Linn "engineers" when they display there utter lack of musical knowledge. -- tomjtx tomjtx's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=7449 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=60169 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] SPDIF is evil
Rodney_Gold wrote: > PS audio use I2S via hdmi cable... Is I2S related to I2C? I2C is used all over the place. I was thinking that to make it have a chance, the new "better audio DIF" would have to use an existing commodity cable, such as USB 3.0 or HDMI. But I don't know if you can use these cables without using the appropriate full protocol. -- Pat Farrell http://www.pfarrell.com/ ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] SPDIF is evil
PS audio use I2S via hdmi cable...of course it sounds better , according to them , with one of their specilaised cables -- Rodney_Gold Sb3/Z-sys RDP1/meridian DSP5500's TP/X-cans v3/Senns 650's TP/SCM 50a's SB3/Meridian DSP5000's TP/PS audio perfectwave DAC/woo audio Wa2 Headphone amp/Sehneisser Hd800's "The nicest thing about smacking your head against the wall is...the feeling you get when you stop" Rodney_Gold's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=14618 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=71464 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] SPDIF is evil
With 99% of all music lovers thinking that Mp3 is as good as it gets and with 20+ years of legacy products using the evil spdif, what chance is there of mnfgrs introducing yet ANOTHER digital standard? Do you think another digital audio transmission interface would make such a massive difference to sound quality that its really justified? -- Rodney_Gold Sb3/Z-sys RDP1/meridian DSP5500's TP/X-cans v3/Senns 650's TP/SCM 50a's SB3/Meridian DSP5000's TP/PS audio perfectwave DAC/woo audio Wa2 Headphone amp/Sehneisser Hd800's "The nicest thing about smacking your head against the wall is...the feeling you get when you stop" Rodney_Gold's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=14618 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=71464 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] SPDIF is evil
Recognizing that SP/DIF is less than ideal, the next step is obvious, propose an implement a new standard. The problem with this, is the vast majority of the marketplace see's nothing wrong with SP/DIF, and isn't going to pay anything more for it In fact, in addition to the separate word clock, there has been another standard proposed, and implemented by some manufactures: the I2S interface (I squared S). This derives from another Sony/Philips spec, a buss intended for IC to IC communication inside a CD player. The name is an abbreviation of Inter-IC Sound buss. The original version (championed by Audio Alchemy) used a DIN connector to handle the extra pins required. Not the best connector, as it isn't a controlled impedance connection, but at least it did split the data and clocks. Ultra Analog developed an improved version of this interface dubbed I2S enhanced, which extended the spec to allow for the clock to be sourced from either the DAC or Transport. It used a 13W3 connector, which is an odd looking beast used by high end graphics terminals. Externally, it looks like a DB25 but is interesting in that it has 3 75ohm coaxial cable connections along with 5 twisted pairs. Wadia (who ultimately bought out Ultra Analog) and Sonic Frontiers had products which made use of this interface. The point of all of this, is that better interfaces have been proposed, implemented, marketed, and failed Sad to say, but I think we're stuck with SP/DIF... -- DCtoDaylight Audiophile wish list: Zero Distortion, Infinite Signal to Noise Ratio, and a Bandwidth from DC to Daylight DCtoDaylight's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=7284 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=71464 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Audiophile Music File Protection
My neighbor and I upgraded our CAT5E buried service cable between our houses from 100M to GE. Both of us have a Ubuntu Server with identical large LVM file systems and plan on using the rsync application to keep video and audio files syncronised between the two servers. We are both running our own squeezecenter service however my audio file system will be master for both houses and his will be backup. His video file sytem is the master and mine will be the backup. We hope this will provide us a decent level of redundancy. -- sfraser 2 Chan. System SB3->Benchmark DAC-1-> Bryston(BP-25,3B)->PMC TB2 Home Theater System SB2-> Bryston(SP1,4B,4B,2B,2B)-> PSB Stratus Goldi Basement System SB2-> Parasound Preamp (carver M1.0t) ->Klipsch La Scala's Bedroom System SB2-> Sony BoomBox Rear Deck/Patio Duet-> Yamaha Reciever-> PSB Mini's, sfraser's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=2026 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=42358 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] SPDIF is evil
pfarrell;486011 Wrote: > (starting a new thread) > > Themis wrote: > > In any case, it would have been much better if in the digital audio > > protocol the clock was explicitly indicated by the A/D (in the data) > > and stored with it. This way, transport wouldn't have to add its own > > jitter. > > > > Now, whatever is done, we can't go back. > > Er, SPDIF is done, but its not the end of the world. > > SP/DIF was designed by Sony and Philips defined it as a inexpensive > consumer interface. And while AES was aimed at the studio recording > market (i.e. professionals) it is not designed to be better. Other > than > using XLR connectors and not having the "do not copy" bit in the > stream, > its exactly the same spec. > > All of the problems with timing and clocks could be trivially fixed by > adding one extra wire to the cable, and sending clock. (and a bit of > signaling protocols to allow each end to argue over who is in charge > of > the clock). > > This would not prevent the cable from adding jitter, but you wouldn't > care, as any delay in the clock will also impact the data signal. > > In time, if there is sufficient demand, a new standard could evolve. > > As a wise man said: Standards are great, there are so many of them to > chose from > > > -- > Pat Farrell > http://www.pfarrell.com/ This an excellent idea, too. :) -- Themis SB3 - North Star dac 192 - Cyrus 8xp - Sonus Faber Grand Piano Domus Themis's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=14700 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=71464 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] SPDIF is evil
Themis wrote: > So, the idea was : to include the A/D clock in the initially recorded > data. > This could allow all the intermediate "transports" to do just that : > transport the initial data (and clock, thus) without adding anything to > the stored data. Whatever the number of intermediate transports the > data+clock would remain unchanged. Close. actually, the clock becomes irrelevant with data on the "disk" then it is just data. But when recording, you need to have all of your ADC on the same clock. You need meta data to say what clock rate is applicable to the data, but the actual clock timing is no longer important. Then on playback, you pull the data off the "disk", and create a clock of the appropriate rate, and send the clock and data together. Of course, "disk" is just a storage place, it could be a flash drive, hard disk, or TCP/IP link. -- Pat Farrell http://www.pfarrell.com/ ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] SPDIF is evil
Well, thank you for starting a new thread (I was a bit shy, to be honest). So, the idea was : to include the A/D clock in the initially recorded data. This could allow all the intermediate "transports" to do just that : transport the initial data (and clock, thus) without adding anything to the stored data. Whatever the number of intermediate transports the data+clock would remain unchanged. In the end, the overall error would be the one introduced by the D/A process trying to imitate whatever timing error was initially recorded. Perhaps it's a naive point of view, but, from the data+clock integrity point of view this is probably the best option. :) -- Themis SB3 - North Star dac 192 - Cyrus 8xp - Sonus Faber Grand Piano Domus Themis's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=14700 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=71464 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
[SlimDevices: Audiophiles] SPDIF is evil
(starting a new thread) Themis wrote: > In any case, it would have been much better if in the digital audio > protocol the clock was explicitly indicated by the A/D (in the data) > and stored with it. This way, transport wouldn't have to add its own > jitter. > > Now, whatever is done, we can't go back. Er, SPDIF is done, but its not the end of the world. SP/DIF was designed by Sony and Philips defined it as a inexpensive consumer interface. And while AES was aimed at the studio recording market (i.e. professionals) it is not designed to be better. Other than using XLR connectors and not having the "do not copy" bit in the stream, its exactly the same spec. All of the problems with timing and clocks could be trivially fixed by adding one extra wire to the cable, and sending clock. (and a bit of signaling protocols to allow each end to argue over who is in charge of the clock). This would not prevent the cable from adding jitter, but you wouldn't care, as any delay in the clock will also impact the data signal. In time, if there is sufficient demand, a new standard could evolve. As a wise man said: Standards are great, there are so many of them to chose from -- Pat Farrell http://www.pfarrell.com/ ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Will a transporter sound as good as the Linn Majik DS
JezA;485941 Wrote: > tomjtx, the Linn engineers who you call "musically illiterate" include > guys who have made award winning classical music and jazz recordings. > ... > > What other top-end hi-fi company has made such a large body of high > quality recordings? This is all very true. Nevertheless, let's not over-idealize the relationship between Linn's engineers, their recording studios and the marketing/product section. ;) -- Themis SB3 - North Star dac 192 - Cyrus 8xp - Sonus Faber Grand Piano Domus Themis's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=14700 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=60169 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Query for Sean Adams
In any case, it would have been much better if in the digital audio protocol the clock was explicitly indicated by the A/D (in the data) and stored with it. This way, transport wouldn't have to add its own jitter. Now, whatever is done, we can't go back. -- Themis SB3 - North Star dac 192 - Cyrus 8xp - Sonus Faber Grand Piano Domus Themis's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=14700 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=70626 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Transporter factory reset on power off???
I filled out a bug, because it is a quite serious bug. It nearly burned off my Martin Logans because I thought that My Tact was master, and volume turned down, but instead it startet up with 250W in both speakers, becase Transporter volume was at 100% !! Bug 15117 - Squeezebox server 7.4.1 does not save audio settings correctly on Transporter (edit) -- callesoroe Callesoroe SB-duet, Transporter, Tact RCS 2.2X digital preamp, Martin Logan Vista speakers, Acoustic Reality Ear Enigma AMPs(2 pieces BIAMP) callesoroe's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=22693 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=71415 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Transporter and Tact RCS 2.2X
GuyDebord;485953 Wrote: > Hello Guys, > > I wanted to try Phil's custom-config file but I couldnt find out how to > replace it, as I didnt find any file with the same name could you > please let me know how? I use mac os. > > cheers! Guy, I know nothing about Macs, on XP the file is called "custom-convert.conf" and is in the c:\program files\Squeezecenter\server folder. regards, Phil -- Phil Leigh You want to see the signal path BEFORE it gets onto a CD/vinyl...it ain't what you'd call minimal... SB Touch Beta (wired) - TACT 2.2X (Linear PSU) + Good Vibrations S/W - MF Triplethreat(Audiocom full mods) - Linn 5103 - Aktiv 5.1 system (6x LK140's, ESPEK/TRIKAN/KATAN/SEIZMIK 10.5), Townsend Supertweeters, Blue Jeans Digital,Kimber Speaker & Chord Interconnect cables Kitchen Boom, Outdoors: SB Radio Phil Leigh's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=85 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=70166 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Transporter and Tact RCS 2.2X
Hello Phil, I wanted to try your custom-config file but I couldnt find out how to replace it, as I didnt find any file with the same name could you please let me know how? I use mac os. cheers! -- GuyDebord '*LAST.FM*' (http://www.last.fm/user/bloodyrosa) - SPEAKERS: Kharma CRM 3.2FE -> v/dHul Inspiration - PRE: Lyngdorf DPA-1 -> Kharma Grand Reference XLR's -> AMP: Halcro MC20 - ANALOGUE: Clearaudio Ambient CMB, Satisfy Carbon & Lyra Helikon SL, ASR Basis Exclusive phono pre -> Acoustic Zen SilverReference II XLRs - DIGITAL: SlimDevices Transporter -> Siltech GoldenRidge AES/EBU -> Lyngdorf DPA-1 - AC: PS Audio PowerPlantPremier, PS Audio Statement(PPP), ASR MagicCord(ASR), Siltech SPX30 MKII's for Lyngdorf, Halcro & Transporter GuyDebord's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=14587 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=70166 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Will a transporter sound as good as the Linn Majik DS
tomjtx, the Linn engineers who you call "musically illiterate" include guys who have made award winning classical music and jazz recordings. Why don't you get your facts right before you hurl abuse? What recordings have you made, that we may judge your competence from? -- JezA JezA's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=21219 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=60169 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Transporter being phased out?
I did talk with a Stereo store technician in Switzerland. The Transporter is phased out of the Logitech lineup on the website and standard Logitech retail channel. Apparently they want to push this high-end product throught the traditional hi-fi channel with real stores where you could listen to it and test it with different speakers , This kind of makes senses to me. They had it in a consumer exhibit running on some 25K speakers and it sounded just great, -- kbgva kbgva's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=34326 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=71092 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
