Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Beatles 24 vs 16 bits...
OK, so I diffed the 24 and 16 bit versions of Come Together. First observation: these come from the same digital master. There is zero sample rate difference between them (ie the samples all line up perfectly - not possible if they were from different masters). Second observation: the overall null is -82dB (so in 16-bit terms the difference is in the bottom 3 bits). The difference file sounds silent until you give it 50dB of boost - then you can hear broadband noise (hiss) plus the basics of the music itself - you can follow the words!. Interestingly the hi-hats are very clear... Looking at the diff file frequency plot, the differences are all below 500Hz or above 15kHz. In between there is little difference. Conclusion: the files are very similar but still different. The differences should be audible on good equipment. The differences should manifest themselves at the top end (hi-hats) and possibly in the bass guitar/drums. The 24-bit masters are worth having - certainly Abbey Road is. -- Phil Leigh You want to see the signal path BEFORE it gets onto a CD/vinyl...it ain't what you'd call minimal... SB Touch Beta (wired) - TACT 2.2X (Linear PSU) + Good Vibrations S/W - MF Triplethreat(Audiocom full mods) - Linn 5103 - Aktiv 5.1 system (6x LK140's, ESPEK/TRIKAN/KATAN/SEIZMIK 10.5), Townsend Supertweeters, Blue Jeans Digital,Kimber Speaker & Chord Interconnect cables Kitchen Boom, Outdoors: SB Radio Phil Leigh's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=85 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=72852 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Sound quality between wav and flac
Louishlomador;497315 Wrote: > Hi Guys, As the original owner of this post, I have read through some of > the technical measurements Phil and others have come up with. Would we > all say its fair to say that the reason we are having these discussions > is because there may be too many factors to consider when doing these > tests? such as type of sound card being used for the measurements, type > interconnects, as they all have different characteristics, Whether > diffmaker has been installed properly on the respective PCs. The list > could be very lengthy here. > > > I have taken some time to do some research on codecs, file formats. It > seems some codecs do a better job than others. Everybody agrees without > a doubt that the flac files are identical to wave, in terms of what > information each file holds. There is absolutely, without a doubt that > the CD converted, whether in FLAC or WAV is the same as the original > source. As we all agree with this, lets move forward, what else could be > the reason why some can tell the differences, others cannot? > > My question to everyone is what version of codec software was used in > the firmware, when using squeezecenter 7.2. I'll tell you why I'm asking > these questions. I recently converted a few of my CD's to AIFF which is > the wav file version of apple. Strangely AIFF will play in native mode > for 7.2. Unfortunately it doesn't work for 7.4, 7.4.1, or even 7.5. It > only plays for 7.4, 7.4.1 or 7.5 when you have "flac/SOX" turned on. It > doesn't play natively. Bandwidth is not an issue for some of us, hence > we want the full spectrum of the file streamed naturally, not converted > to FLAC by the decoder. Why does 7.2 work perfectly and all other > versions I have tested doesn't? > > Louis, The reason we are having these discussions is that various people have asserted that there is an audible difference in wav vs flac playback. As far as I am concerned this is untrue for SPDIF playback. There is NO difference - none. In ADM you simply cannot get an accidental null >100dB. With analogue playback it is harder to be absolutely sure because of the clock issue, however my tests and listening lead me to conclude that the same is true. If I am following your thinking correctly, you are now looking at the codec that does the translation of flac or wav into PCM before tcp/ip transmission to the SB? Clearly these codecs works perfectly otherwise the diff tests would fail... and DTS and HDCD replay would fail too. wav-pcm and flac-pcm are both LOSSLESS transformations. There is no ambiguity or doubt here. The unfortunate fact that AIFF will not play natively post 7.2 has no bearing on any of this. There are only 2 factors in play, the bits and the clocks. The bits are always the same - can we agree on this?. The clocks only come into play at the spdif transmitter/receiver and/or DAC. Codecs don't know about clocks. -- Phil Leigh You want to see the signal path BEFORE it gets onto a CD/vinyl...it ain't what you'd call minimal... SB Touch Beta (wired) - TACT 2.2X (Linear PSU) + Good Vibrations S/W - MF Triplethreat(Audiocom full mods) - Linn 5103 - Aktiv 5.1 system (6x LK140's, ESPEK/TRIKAN/KATAN/SEIZMIK 10.5), Townsend Supertweeters, Blue Jeans Digital,Kimber Speaker & Chord Interconnect cables Kitchen Boom, Outdoors: SB Radio Phil Leigh's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=85 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=71321 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Beatles 24 vs 16 bits...
Wombat;497444 Wrote: > There comes me one thing to mind. Mr. Phil Leigh has some interesting > findings with throwing everything into an Audio Diffmaker. > It should be easy to compare 2 files. It also should show what version > is louder by nature and may sound different alone due to that. I'll look into it. I have the 16 & 24-bit versions of AR and LIB... -- Phil Leigh You want to see the signal path BEFORE it gets onto a CD/vinyl...it ain't what you'd call minimal... SB Touch Beta (wired) - TACT 2.2X (Linear PSU) + Good Vibrations S/W - MF Triplethreat(Audiocom full mods) - Linn 5103 - Aktiv 5.1 system (6x LK140's, ESPEK/TRIKAN/KATAN/SEIZMIK 10.5), Townsend Supertweeters, Blue Jeans Digital,Kimber Speaker & Chord Interconnect cables Kitchen Boom, Outdoors: SB Radio Phil Leigh's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=85 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=72852 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Beatles 24 vs 16 bits...
There comes me one thing to mind. Mr. Phil Leigh has some interesting findings with throwing everything into an Audio Diffmaker. It should be easy to compare 2 files. It also should show what version is louder by nature and may sound different alone due to that. -- Wombat Transporter -> RG142 -> Avantgarde based monoblocks -> Sommer SPK240 -> self-made speakers Wombat's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=4113 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=72852 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Low budget audiophile surprise (Asus O-Play + Dacmagic)
Very true. I was a bit myopic in my replay, but I wasn't considering your 24/48 vs 24/96 point. Sorry. I can't really speak to that other than my own experience comparing a SB3/CI Audio DAC vs Transporter. I discovered this week that my comparison method was faulty: I had both units set to sync in the SServer and as a result the server was outputting the greatest resolution file they could both decode - 24/48. I'd like to compare again when I get the chance to go north to the cabin, but as of my last listening I much preferred the SB/DAC over the TP. I have a transcoding post here, in which the consensus is that the default settings are optimized: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=72703 And the streaming sync post here: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?p=495595#post495595 Perhaps one can provide you with the info to help, but to state the overly obvious: you ear is your best guide. If the Asus sounds better to you I can't debate, only be glad that you found the best fit for your system/room/ear. I'd certainly give the Asus another look if I had the chance and wan't please with my current set up (which does not include any Squeezebox in my current home system). -- kphinney -I like it, you may not. I understand and respect that.- kphinney's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=10409 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=72766 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
[SlimDevices: Audiophiles] 24bit/96kHz to Transporter
Hello, how can I be sure that the Transporter gets 24bit/96kHz Flac music? Not something downsampled? Thanks. Christian -- Schindler Schindler's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=8461 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=72861 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Beatles 24 vs 16 bits...
Archimago;497345 Wrote: > > I'm thinking of upsampling a track from remastered 16-bit CD to 24-bits > and doing some ABXing myself, any Beatle audiophile can recommend which > track is considered of high enough quality that 24 bits can make a > difference??? None. I doubt any of the originals was recorded with more dynamic range a 16bit version can offer even after remastering. If i read correctly i even wonder why they offer 24/44.1. I doubt they did the remastering at 44.1kHz so they had already processed it inbetween again. Of cause they may have treated the master to 24/44.1 different as the master to 16/44.1 -- Wombat Transporter -> RG142 -> Avantgarde based monoblocks -> Sommer SPK240 -> self-made speakers Wombat's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=4113 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=72852 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
[SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Beatles 24 vs 16 bits...
Just got my Beatles USB stick. Anyone done ABX testing of 24 bit FLAC vs CD? I'm thinking of upsampling a track from remastered 16-bit CD to 24-bits and doing some ABXing myself, any Beatle audiophile can recommend which track is considered of high enough quality that 24 bits can make a difference??? -- Archimago Archimago's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=2207 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=72852 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Low budget audiophile surprise (Asus O-Play + Dacmagic)
kphinney;497166 Wrote: > PS - I really don't think this is an Audiophile Forum topic. For the later > part of my initial post (regarding Squeezeplay on the O-Play) you're right. This may be something for the DIY section. For me the 24bit/96kHz performance of the Asus/Dacmagic combo is highly audiophile, because it touches me emotional. When I compare the same 16bit/44kHz files between the Asus and the Squeezebox (both connected to the Dacmagic) I can't hear any difference. Not very surprising, it's the same signal converted on the same DAC. The performance of both combos is on a high level, clearly better then the same Track played on my Linn Karik CD Player. With 24bit/96kHz files the difference is extreme. Played on the O-Play it shines, played on the Squeezebox it looses a lot of the performance. Maybe my Squeezebox (Sox) isn't configured correctly? -- Ripfabrik Ripfabrik's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=35060 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=72766 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] It's Now Official: Computer Based Audio Goes High End
Just thinking about this new Audiophile USB cable has made my music sound better already. Since I have let my brain fool my ears because enjoying music is *-Really-* about how much equipment costs and not how the reproduction of sound waves from audio equipment approaches what was recorded in the actual performance, I now don't have to spend the money on the audiophile USB cable! I wonder if I also need the Machina Dynamica's Clever Little Clock so that the timing of the ones and zeros down the cable are properly timed? 'More foolish junk' (http://www.audiojunkies.com/blog/959/will-gullible-audiophiles-buy-absolutely-anything) It never ends does it, as long as there are fools there will be people after their money! -- iPhone *iPhone* Media Room: Transporter, VTL TL-6.5 Signature Pre-Amp, Ayre MX-R Mono's, VeraStarr 6.4SE 6-channel Amp, Vandersteen Speakers: Quatro Mains, VCC-5 Reference Center, four VSM-1 Signatures, Video: Runco RS 900 CineWide AutoScope 2.35:1 Living Room: Duet, ADCOM GTP-870HD, Cinepro 3K6SE III Gold, Vandersteen Model 3A Signature, Two 2Wq subs, VCC-2, Two VSM-1 Kitchen: Squeezebox BOOM Bedroom: Second Boom Bathroom: Squeezebox Radio Ford Thunderbird: Duet, Mac Mini Ford Expedition: SB Touch, USB drive iPhone's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=13622 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=72768 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Sound quality between wav and flac
Hi Guys, As the original owner of this post, I have read through some of the technical measurements Phil and others have come up with. Would we all say its fair to say that the reason we are having these discussions is because there may be too many factors to consider when doing these tests? such as type of sound card being used for the measurements, type interconnects, as they all have different characteristics, Whether diffmaker has been installed properly on the respective PCs. The list could be very lengthy here. I have taken some time to do some research on codecs, file formats. It seems some codecs do a better job than others. Everybody agrees without a doubt that the flac files are identical to wave, in terms of what information each file holds. There is absolutely, without a doubt that the CD converted, whether in FLAC or WAV is the same as the original source. As we all agree with this, lets move forward, what else could be the reason why some can tell the differences, others cannot? My question to everyone is what version of codec software was used in the firmware, when using squeezecenter 7.2. I'll tell you why I'm asking these questions. I recently converted a few of my CD's to AIFF which is the wav file version of apple. Strangely AIFF will play in native mode for 7.2. Unfortunately it doesn't work for 7.4, 7.4.1, or even 7.5. It only plays for 7.4, 7.4.1 or 7.5 when you have "flac/SOX" turned on. It doesn't play natively. Bandwidth is not an issue for some of us, hence we want the full spectrum of the file streamed naturally, not converted to FLAC by the decoder. Why does 7.2 work perfectly and all other versions I have tested doesn't? I will be very happy if one of the slim devices team can answer these questions. You only get a loud audible sound, similar sound to when searching for TV channels on an old TV, say in the 1980's. I think there is a serious flaw in the firmware or software that i am more than happy to input my findings and get this fixed. The only reason why i decided to convert some of my music CDs to AIFF was because the new software versions by default converted wav files to flac. Me thinking by ripping my CDs in AIFF I could get away with streaming the file naturally as its supposed to didn't work for the new versions. It only works for 7.2. How can an older version of software do a better job than the new versions? Can someone also test and come up with the results. I'm confident that this has been missed in the new software. If a wave file is designed to be streamed as wav then i believe it should, same for flac or other formats, rather than using some codec to convert at the background to allow the file to play. In my view i think the software engineers will have to come up with a better solution to this flac, wave, or AIFF issue that will never go away. Not everyone has bandwidth issues, hence i believe strongly the software should be flexible enough to allow you to setup how you want your files streamed, knowing the consequence could be bandwidth. Please do the tests , thus rip a CD in AIFF format, then in the file types section in Squeezserver set the AIFF to play natively, disable "flac/sox". It just wont play the music, It only plays natively in 7.2. I hope this posting will help develop a better software, then there will be no diffmaker tests etc.. if every file is streamed as its supposed to using the right codecs Thanks guys NB: I am aware that you can stream wav in its native format for all versions, however i'm afraid to say 7.2 wav streaming sounds better than all the other versions natively and this is why my question is what codec is being used for 7.2? is streaming done the same way with the other versions? what has changed between the different versions -- Louishlomador Louishlomador's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=34260 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=71321 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Sound quality between wav and flac
Louishlomador;497302 Wrote: > Hi Guys, As the original owner of this post, I have read through some of > the technical measurements Phil and others have come up with. Would we > all say its fair to say that the reason we are having these discussions > is because there may be too many factors to consider when doing these > tests? such as type of sound card being used for the measurements, type > interconnects, as they all have different characteristics, Whether > diffmaker has been installed properly on the respective PCs. The list > could be very lengthy here. I have taken some time to do some research > on codecs, file formats. It seems some codecs do a better job than > others. Everybody agrees without a doubt that the flac files are > identical to wave, in terms of what information each file holds. There > is absolutely, without a doubt that the CD converted, whether in FLAC or > WAV is the same as the original source. As we all agree with this, lets > move forward, what else could be the reason why some can tell the > differences, others cannot? My question to everyone is what version of > codec software was used in the firmware, when using squeezecenter 7.2. > I'll tell you why I'm asking these questions. I recently converted a few > of my CD's to AIFF which is the wav file version of apple. Strangely > AIFF will play in native mode for 7.2. Unfortunately it doesn't work for > 7.4, 7.4.1, or even 7.5. It only plays for 7.4, 7.4.1 or 7.5 when you > have "flac/SOX" turned on. It doesn't play natively. Bandwidth is not an > issue for some of us, hence we want the full spectrum of the file > streamed naturally, not converted to FLAC by the decoder. Why does 7.2 > work perfectly and all other versions I have tested doesn't? I will be > very happy if one of the slim devices team can answer these questions. > You only get a loud audible sound, similar sound to when searching for > TV channels on an old TV, say in the 1980's. I think there is a serious > flaw in the firmware or software that i am more than happy to input my > findings and get this fixed. The only reason why i decided to convert > some of my music CDs to AIFF was because the new software versions by > default converted wav files to flac. Me thinking by ripping my CDs in > AIFF I could get away with streaming the file naturally as its supposed > to didn't work for the new versions. It only works for 7.2. How can an > older version of software do a better job than the new versions? Can > someone also test and come up with the results. I'm confident that this > has been missed in the new software. If a wave file is designed to be > streamed as wav then i believe it should, same for flac or other > formats, rather than using some codec to convert at the background to > allow the file to play. In my view i think the software engineers will > have to come up with a better solution to this flac, wave, or AIFF issue > that will never go away. Not everyone has bandwidth issues, hence i > believe strongly the software should be flexible enough to allow you to > setup how you want your files streamed, knowing the consequence could be > bandwidth. Please do the tests , thus rip a CD in AIFF format, then in > the file types section in Squeezserver set the AIFF to play natively, > disable "flac/sox". It just wont play the music, It only plays natively > in 7.2. I hope this posting will help develop a better software, then > there will be no diffmaker tests etc.. if every file is streamed as its > supposed to using the right codecs Thanks guys Louis Would you please sort this out into paragraphs ? Chris:) -- Stratmangler Stratmangler's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=20387 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=71321 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Sound quality between wav and flac
See this thread (final message posted). You should still be able to stream WAV > WAV with the right settings. http://forums.slimdevices.com/showpost.php?p=393216&postcount=16 -- garym garym's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=17325 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=71321 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Sound quality between wav and flac
Hi Guys, As the original owner of this post, I have read through some of the technical measurements Phil and others have come up with. Would we all say its fair to say that the reason we are having these discussions is because there may be too many factors to consider when doing these tests? such as type of sound card being used for the measurements, type interconnects, as they all have different characteristics, Whether diffmaker has been installed properly on the respective PCs. The list could be very lengthy here. I have taken some time to do some research on codecs, file formats. It seems some codecs do a better job than others. Everybody agrees without a doubt that the flac files are identical to wave, in terms of what information each file holds. There is absolutely, without a doubt that the CD converted, whether in FLAC or WAV is the same as the original source. As we all agree with this, lets move forward, what else could be the reason why some can tell the differences, others cannot? My question to everyone is what version of codec software was used in the firmware, when using squeezecenter 7.2. I'll tell you why I'm asking these questions. I recently converted a few of my CD's to AIFF which is the wav file version of apple. Strangely AIFF will play in native mode for 7.2. Unfortunately it doesn't work for 7.4, 7.4.1, or even 7.5. It only plays for 7.4, 7.4.1 or 7.5 when you have "flac/SOX" turned on. It doesn't play natively. Bandwidth is not an issue for some of us, hence we want the full spectrum of the file streamed naturally, not converted to FLAC by the decoder. Why does 7.2 work perfectly and all other versions I have tested doesn't? I will be very happy if one of the slim devices team can answer these questions. You only get a loud audible sound, similar sound to when searching for TV channels on an old TV, say in the 1980's. I think there is a serious flaw in the firmware or software that i am more than happy to input my findings and get this fixed. The only reason why i decided to convert some of my music CDs to AIFF was because the new software versions by default converted wav files to flac. Me thinking by ripping my CDs in AIFF I could get away with streaming the file naturally as its supposed to didn't work for the new versions. It only works for 7.2. How can an older version of software do a better job than the new versions? Can someone also test and come up with the results. I'm confident that this has been missed in the new software. If a wave file is designed to be streamed as wav then i believe it should, same for flac or other formats, rather than using some codec to convert at the background to allow the file to play. In my view i think the software engineers will have to come up with a better solution to this flac, wave, or AIFF issue that will never go away. Not everyone has bandwidth issues, hence i believe strongly the software should be flexible enough to allow you to setup how you want your files streamed, knowing the consequence could be bandwidth. Please do the tests , thus rip a CD in AIFF format, then in the file types section in Squeezserver set the AIFF to play natively, disable "flac/sox". It just wont play the music, It only plays natively in 7.2. I hope this posting will help develop a better software, then there will be no diffmaker tests etc.. if every file is streamed as its supposed to using the right codecs Thanks guys -- Louishlomador Louishlomador's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=34260 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=71321 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] audiotests in menu of transporter
On 20/12/09 07:46, Pat Farrell wrote: > Phil Leigh wrote: > >> In this case, putting a nice full range sine wave through your speakers >> will often kill them pretty quickly if the amp vol is high... > > It doesn't even have to be full range. Its trivial to blow out tweeters > with test tones, since most of us can't hear all that well up in tweeter > territory. I can verify that. I blew the same tweeters twice with the same CD (AC/DC, Highway To Hell) and not playing it all that loud! R. ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
