Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] External DAC - does it make a difference?
jgenner;518642 Wrote: > > I have recently tried both an external DAC in the 300 and 1200 > price range with my SB 3. Frankly speaking, neither me nor my spouse > have been able to detect more than a very subtle difference to the sound > of the SB 3 connected directly to my Creek Destiny Integrated Amp plus > Power Amp and System Audio Ranger system. > > Thus, I ask myself the question: Don't we (forty-somethings) hear a > difference or is there no sonic difference? At least no difference that > could not be achieved by increasing the volume a little bit? Do we all > only believe that there is a difference to justify the money we spend? > In the latter case, I would be much better of to spend our money on a > second SB 3 or a touch if it was available or, much better - there > really is a difference - to buy more vinyl record? > > Jörg Hi Jörg, as you have tried these dacs (which ones ?), and according to your findings, I see 3 possibilities: 1. Your setup (speaker placement, room acoustics, amp driving speakers,...) is not optimum to appreciate the main differences 2. You don't know which differences to look for and the listening material (music and passages chosen) is not appropriate to highlight the main differences. 3. Neither you nor your spouse find the differences are worth the money All this can be true to a certain extend, but the "age" argument is not so much a concern, imho. Your ears and brain adapt, and, although you're unable to listen to 16kHz material, your sensitivity to subtle changes in other frequencies (because of the 16kHz content) may become more precise. This is the way I see it. In any case, you're the right person to take the decision, but I don't consider "reasonable" to spend more than 10% of the total system's price on the source (+dac). ;) -- Themis SB3 - North Star dac 192 - Croft 25Pre and Series 7 power - Sonus Faber Grand Piano Domus Themis's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=14700 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=75447 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] External DAC - does it make a difference?
"difference is in the ear of the beholder" Actually, it is not. As I already mentioned, we were not able to hear a real difference. In particular, not the incredible effects some people are raving about in reviews and forums. Of course, I know that a room can make a big difference, and probably the biggest one. (We moved from a modern building in Germany to a flat in an old house with 4.50 m high ceilings in Brussels. The former room was deep, the current one is broad. It was a pain to get rid of bass refections.) More over, my equipment was assembled with my listening preferences in mind. As I am not living on guaranteed bonuses, I tried to get good quality for the money I spent - about € 1 overall. And no, I don't want to start experimenting. On the contrary, I want to stop and focus on listening again. However, as I find the SB 3 not only very convenient but perfectly acceptable from a sound perspective (my Creek Destiny CDP risks to start collecting dust), I was thinking about ways to improve it or replace it by playing the music directly from my mini PC to an external DAC. So far, I am not convinced it is worth the extra investment. I am quite capable of realizing differences between the cartridges of my turntable even nothing else is changed. I believe to hear a difference between flac and mp3 rips of the same CD. As regards the DAC's: not really. At least not after calibrating same to the same volume. Thus, I ask my question again: Is there really a difference we hear that could not be achieved by turning the volume knob? Doesn't the quality of the recording have a much bigger impact? Jörg -- jgenner jgenner's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=34212 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=75447 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] External DAC - does it make a difference?
Hi- I agree with the others - if you are happy with what you've got, great. However,it is possible the differences are subtle and you will only notice them after extended listening. You could try listening to the external DAC for a week or more and then switch back. If there is a difference your ears can hear and that your system can reproduce, you will notice it. That said, I have 2 external DACs. The differnces between them and the output of my Duet are significant, but not so noticeable that it is like a slap in the face. Sometimes after listening for a few minutes I notice that "something doesn't sound right" and realize I'm listening to the Duet from it's DAC-analogue outs and not the external DAC I usually am switched to. The switch over to the external DAC makes a noticeable improvement, but it's not on the level of "bad" sounding vs. "good" sounding. -- firedog Tranquil PC fanless WHS server running SqueezeCenter; SB Duet through Empirical Audio Pace Car; TACT 2.2XP; MF X-150 amp, Sonus Faber Concerto; Mirage MS-12 sub; Dual 506 + Ortofon 20 (occasional use); sometimes use PC with M-Audio 192 as digital source. SB Boom. Arcam CD82 which I don't use anymore, even though it's a very good player. firedog's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=11550 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=75447 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] External DAC - does it make a difference?
Jörg, In the search for nirvana, I have become a recent convert to listening room optimisation, and have found that moving the sofa around the room has a far greater impact on the sound that I hear than any amount of fiddling with the electronics. I have gone down the 'this dac is better than that dac' route and to be honest, many £1000s later, while I can hear differences (and have convinced myself that it was money well spent), I can't pretend that it in any way was value for money. Sean and the boys at Slim seem to have done a pretty decent job on the audio stages of the Squeeze products, and introducing a dac that is separate from the streamer introduces issues of its own. You may have already done this, but if not, spend a day trying different listening room configurations. You may find that the 'weakness' you perceived in your system was actually a standing wave bouncing off the far wall. Strangely, my room sounds best with all the windows opened wide, and the curtains closed. My Wife thinks I am mad. Andy. -- Andy8421 Andy8421's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=16846 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=75447 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] External DAC - does it make a difference?
Curt962 wrote: > Of course the best equipment will be capable of resolving the smallest > subtleties better than will lesser components. For some suitable definition of "best equipment" Perhaps. Maybe. -- Pat Farrell http://www.pfarrell.com/ ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] External DAC - does it make a difference?
Great post Joerg. Of course the best equipment will be capable of resolving the smallest subtleties better than will lesser components. Whether this greater capability ever reveals itself to the listener is another matter. The trained ear of a classical musician, or one immersed in the arts will be far more sensitive to deviations from the truth than will one who has never set foot in a concert hall. Unfortunately many amongst the latter group will be quick to affirm the huge "improvements" wrought by some component when perhaps they've never actually made any sort of comparison. Sorry...it's true. When you spend $5K for 25 bucks worth of parts..you are for darned sure going to find some way to justify it. As has been suggested earlier, vague "Differences" can cost you a fortune, while very substantive improvements in your sound can be had for little more than the effort expended with experimenting with the set up of your existing system. I don't want to be one of those "It's all the same" peoplebecause I'm not, but I've gotten far less the my money's worth in the past and I'm not letting it happen again. It's good that your listening. If you don't hear it...it's not worth it My $0.02 -- Curt962 Curt962's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=31949 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=75447 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] External DAC - does it make a difference?
I have found that the pursuit of "differences" is not a good approach for the audio hobbyist. What is more productive is to explore the question: What is it that I do and don't like about the sound of my system? There are ways to solve various problems in ones system and it is not as simple as buying a "better" piece of equipment, such as adding an external DAC. All systems sound different. Even the exact same system in a different room sounds very different. The cheapest way to make your system sound different is to move it to a very different room in your home. Guaranteed it will sound different. Possibly better, possibly worse. Move it around in the same room - different again. You can learn more about the strengths and weaknesses of your system from doing this. Focus on the things that you don't like about the sound you are now listening to. Locate the source of the problem and make some changes. Not an easy thing to do. Reading about how others "feel" about the sound of various components is helpful. You can draw some generalities from these reviews that can lead you in the right direction - harshness can be cured with good wires and tubes. Muddiness can be corrected with better crossover components, etc. etc. Many different opinions to go around. Take them all and form you own. Experiment! Don't be afraid! - Bon Chance! -- earwaxer Waxer Transporter Winsome labs mouse (modified) Maggie MMG's (modified) JPS Labs power cords Audioquest Granite speaker wire Silver Bullet interconnect HSU research sub earwaxer's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=32040 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=75447 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] External DAC - does it make a difference?
mlsstl;518661 Wrote: > You are the only one who can decide if any particular change in gear is > worth it. There are too many variables involved for others to make that > decision for you. Sure, there is a degree of difference in the physical > hearing abilities between individuals, but probably more important is > the importance they assign to the differences they hear (or don't.) > > Some people become obsessed with minute subtleties and will spend vast > sums on equipment chasing that last fraction of a percent improvement. > Others are quite happy with a modest system and can't imagine why it is > important to spend buckets of money for differences they have to strain > to hear. > > There are plenty of people out there who will insist you start on some > long journey of equipment trading in a search for audio nirvana. Others > will be happy to insult you for your inability to appreciate their holy > grail. > > My suggestion? You tried some upgrades. There was a difference but it > didn't seem to mean much to you. So, stick with your SB3 and enjoy! That > extra money will probably be much better spent (or saved) elsewhere. Ahh...words of wisdom. If you don't think the changes are significant, they are not. -- Kevin Haskins Kevin Haskins's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=30729 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=75447 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Small form factor Amp/receiver
Do you want to power existing speakers? What size of Speakers? What roomsize? For smaller setups the since a few years there are the so called Class T (Tripath) amplifiers. Very small and very strange price ranges. They are all based on the same three chips and you can buy them from 50USD (low power, around 5W per Channel) to 1000USD (around 30W per channel, hifi design, no specs released and crazy overpriced). -- fragfutter fragfutter's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=35184 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=75439 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Small form factor Amp/receiver
I've seen good reviews of the Trends Audio T-10 amp (http://www.trendsaudio.com/index.php), but I've never heard one. The Parasound Zamp v3 may also fit the bill, although it's more of an in-rack design than a bookshelf design. -- aubuti aubuti's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=2074 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=75439 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Small form factor Amp/receiver
I listened to this at CES in 2008 and thought it was a fantastic sounding piece of kit for the size and cost. http://www.nuforce.com/hp/products/icon/index.php -- twylie Thecus N5200 -> transporter -> Krell KRC2 -> 4 x nuforce 8b -> Von Schweikert VR-4 Gen III Thecus N5200 -> SB3 -> Monarchy DIP -> Monarchy Super DIP -> Monarchy 18b -> AES 845 monos -> Sonus Faber Concertos / Audio Physic Sparks Thecus N5200 -> SB3 -> Russound CAV6.6 and CAM6.6 -> whole house audio twylie's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=956 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=75439 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] External DAC - does it make a difference?
Could it be that just by rescanning you got your library cached in memory? -- michael123 michael123's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=23745 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=75447 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] External DAC - does it make a difference?
jgenner;518642 Wrote: > Hi, > > Does an external DAC really make a difference? > > I have recently tried both an external DAC in the 300 and 1200 > price range with my SB 3. Frankly speaking, neither me nor my spouse > have been able to detect more than a very subtle difference to the sound > of the SB 3... You are the only one who can decide if any particular change in gear is worth it. There are too many variables involved for others to make that decision for you. Sure, there is a degree of difference in the physical hearing abilities between individuals, but probably more important is the importance they assign to the differences they hear (or don't.) Some people become obsessed with minute subtleties and will spend vast sums on equipment chasing that last fraction of a percent improvement. Others are quite happy with a modest system and can't imagine why it is important to spend buckets of money for differences they have to strain to hear. There are plenty of people out there who will insist you start on some long journey of equipment trading in a search for audio nirvana. Others will be happy to insult you for your inability to appreciate their holy grail. My suggestion? You tried some upgrades. There was a difference but it didn't seem to mean much to you. So, stick with your SB3 and enjoy! That extra money will probably be much better spent (or saved) elsewhere. -- mlsstl mlsstl's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=9598 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=75447 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Small form factor Amp/receiver
There line of compact amps are quite wonderful and very affordable. The new One.two looks great for the price. Be sure to add one of the better power supplies - they make a huge difference. http://store.virtueaudio.com/ -- ismarketing ismarketing's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=30585 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=75439 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
[SlimDevices: Audiophiles] External DAC - does it make a difference?
Hi, Does an external DAC really make a difference? I have recently tried both an external DAV in the 300 and 1200 price range with my SB 3. Frankly speaking, neither me nor my spouse have been able to detect more than a very subtle difference to the sound of the SB 3 connected to my Creek Destiny Integrated Amp plus Power Amp System Audio Ranger system. Thus, I ask myself the question: Don't we (forty-somethings) hear a difference or is there no sonic difference? At least no difference that could not be achieved by increasing the volume a little bit? Do we all only believe that there is a difference to justify the money we spend? In the latter case, I (we) would be much better of to spend our money on a second SB 3 or a touch if it was available or, much better - there really is a difference - to buy more vinyl record? Jörg -- jgenner jgenner's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=34212 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=75447 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Transporter troubleshooting question
I appreciate the clarification, I was worried I somehow bricked the damn thing. -- cosmopolous cosmopolous's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=36593 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=75438 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Transporter troubleshooting question
cosmopolous wrote: > I'll try that tonight. fingers crossed. > Is this something that's common? It happens. I've had it perhaps twice in the many years that I've had my Transporter. -- Pat Farrell http://www.pfarrell.com/ ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Transporter troubleshooting question
I'll try that tonight. fingers crossed. Is this something that's common? -- cosmopolous cosmopolous's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=36593 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=75438 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Transporter troubleshooting question
cosmopolous;518584 Wrote: > I really hope you folks can help me w/ a question. > > I recently purchased an original Slim Transporter used off Audiogon. > I already had a Duet and wanted the better DAC. > > Over the past several months I have been rebuilding my system. I just > finished rebuilding a pair of classic Dahlquist DQ-20's, I just finished > upgrading my Hafler amp to take 10g speaker cable... > > I've had my whole rig in my shop for the past month, the new Trans > arrived, I upgraded the firmware... Everything was working fine. Trans > was working fine. > > Last night I finished pulling new cat6, new speaker wire and installed > all the gear, including the Trans. > > When I fired up the Trans, it goes into a loop where the left display > says "Factory Reset..." and the right display says "TRANSPORTER". > > After 1-2 seconds, some clicking, it does the same thing again. > > It will not proceed into a reset. If I interrupt the reset, it goes > into "Pick a region, English..." but will not advance further in the > set up, either from the Trans or through the remote. > > I have tried the "Hard Factory Reset" process by pulling the power cord > and holding the "+" button when powering up. Again, it goes into the > "Factory Reset" loop. > > I'm stumped, I can't find a wiki or FAQ that deals with this > situation. > > Any help would be greatly appreciated. It's been months getting > everything done and now I'm dead in the water. > > TIA Try a Xilinx reset - press and hold 1 on the remote whilst applying power to the Transporter... -- Phil Leigh You want to see the signal path BEFORE it gets onto a CD/vinyl...it ain't what you'd call minimal... SB Touch Beta (wired) - TACT 2.2X (Linear PSU) + Good Vibrations S/W - MF Triplethreat(Audiocom full mods) - Linn 5103 - Aktiv 5.1 system (6x LK140's, ESPEK/TRIKAN/KATAN/SEIZMIK 10.5), Townsend Supertweeters, Blue Jeans Digital,Kimber Speaker & Chord Interconnect cables Kitchen Boom, Outdoors: SB Radio Phil Leigh's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=85 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=75438 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
[SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Small form factor Amp/receiver
Hi, looking to repower my SB3 (touch in future) with a smaller form factor (bookshelf if possible) , relatively high qaulity amp/receiver. Just clean stereo ampification is all I neeed. Room is relatively small. Any suggestions would be appreciated.. -- Mongo Mongo's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=6329 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=75439 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
[SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Transporter troubleshooting question
I really hope you folks can help me w/ a question. I recently purchased an original Slim Transporter used off Audiogon. I already had a Duet and wanted the better DAC. Over the past several months I have been rebuilding my system. I just finished rebuilding a pair of classic Dahlquist DQ-20's, I just finished upgrading my Hafler amp to take 10g speaker cable... I've had my whole rig in my shop for the past month, the new Trans arrived, I upgraded the firmware... Everything was working fine. Trans was working fine. Last night I finished pulling new cat6, new speaker wire and installed all the gear, including the Trans. When I fired up the Trans, it goes into a loop where the left display says "Factory Reset..." and the right display says "TRANSPORTER". After 1-2 seconds, some clicking, it does the same thing again. It will not proceed into a reset. If I interrupt the reset, it goes into "Pick a region, English..." but will not advance further in the set up, either from the Trans or through the remote. I have tried the "Hard Factory Reset" process by pulling the power cord and holding the "+" button when powering up. Again, it goes into the "Factory Reset" loop. I'm stumped, I can't find a wiki or FAQ that deals with this situation. Any help would be greatly appreciated. It's been months getting everything done and now I'm dead in the water. TIA -- cosmopolous cosmopolous's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=36593 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=75438 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
