Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Transporter volume-control digital input
mswlogo;541853 Wrote: > And no 24bit DAC actually resolves 24bits. More like 20bits for a good > 24bit DAC. > > So now your talking -24dB before you start losing bits (Also ignoring > non-linearity of lower bits which I believe is critical) all of which is compensated for by the fact that no ADC can put anything but noise into bits 21-24 and no human can hear them in normal conditions anyway -- Phil Leigh You want to see the signal path BEFORE it gets onto a CD/vinyl...it ain't what you'd call minimal... Touch(wired/XP) - TACT 2.2X (Linear PSU) + Good Vibrations S/W - MF Triplethreat(Audiocom full mods) - Linn 5103 - Aktiv 5.1 system (6x LK140's, ESPEK/TRIKAN/KATAN/SEIZMIK 10.5), Townsend Supertweeters, Blue Jeans Digital,Kimber Speaker & Chord Interconnect cables Kitchen Boom, Outdoors: SB Radio Phil Leigh's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=85 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=76659 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] DAC Resolution Test and Don't EVER use Digital Volume Control
mswlogo;541844 Wrote: > Wow lot posts since I last checked this thread. > > Folks I'm well aware of Practice vs Theory. > > The point of the test is to check *ROUGHLY* what your limit is. > > I was actually surprised I could easily hear 18bits or more from sweet > spot (GRANTED at full analog volume). > > Also keep in mind when you use digital attenuation your shifting EVERY > bit down into a worse performing range. So in "Practice" it's actually > worse than this very simple signal. > > Sorry on the mix up on 440Hz vs 3.5K. I had two sets and mixed the > first two up. It's not that big a deal because I expect most will get > past the first two test files and the rest are consistent labeled > correctly. > > When I did my testing I bypassed my digital Preamp for those > questioning what Meridian is doing. I tested with Meridian DSP speakers > that don't upsample. It's basically a DAC/Preamp/Amp/Speaker all in one > box. > > I've convinced a bunch of Meridian owners to reconfigure their preamp > to basically run full scale and not let the processor attenuate even > 1/2 a bit (3dB). 21 folks say it sounds better 0 say it has no change. > This was effectively removing roughly 3-6dB of digital attenuation. > > Then I dug into why this is so and why 24bit doesn't avoid problems > with digital attenuation. > > Will you hear the difference attenuating Lady Gaga digitally, probably > not. > > Digital Attenuation is BAD BAD BAD BAD even just a little is BAD. > > This test is only part of it. It was mainly to show you can't hear > 24bits from your DAC even in UNREASLISTIC extreme cases but you can > easily hear over 16bits. > > They say human hearing has 120dB dynamic range (20-bits). > > Another test I may do is take a nice delicate classical piece of music > and stuff noise in bits 17-24, then 18-24, then 19-24, etc. I'll bet > you can easily hear the noise even at normal levels past 16bits. This > will be a more realistic test (still not perfect though). > > I used Audacity to generate the test files. But I would like to make a > cleaner set they are a little rough but they got the job done. Your last test has already been done, as I posted earlier. The fact is that people cant hear a brass marching band stuffed into the bottom bits of a 16-bit file playing Brahms Lullaby! Ironically, if they could, reducing the volume would eventually lose the Brass Band but leave the Brahms... You are also missing the point about human hearing vs what systems can actually do in terms of dynamic range. There are very few hi-fi systems that can generate 120dB of clean sound. Even so, the human ear cannot actually hear 0dB and 120dB AT THE SAME TIME (especially if the ambient noise level is at a realistic 50dB). Yes the loudest sound we can comfortably tolerate for a short while may be 120 and the quietest we can hear might be 0 - but the brain doesn't work like a microphone! It has to make choices. -- Phil Leigh You want to see the signal path BEFORE it gets onto a CD/vinyl...it ain't what you'd call minimal... Touch(wired/XP) - TACT 2.2X (Linear PSU) + Good Vibrations S/W - MF Triplethreat(Audiocom full mods) - Linn 5103 - Aktiv 5.1 system (6x LK140's, ESPEK/TRIKAN/KATAN/SEIZMIK 10.5), Townsend Supertweeters, Blue Jeans Digital,Kimber Speaker & Chord Interconnect cables Kitchen Boom, Outdoors: SB Radio Phil Leigh's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=85 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=77725 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Transporter Display problems
mlsstl;541819 Wrote: > I can see not supplying parts for a relatively inexpensive SB3/Classic > that's out of warranty, but I'm rather taken aback that Logitech > wouldn't support a $2,000 piece of equipment. The Transporter hasn't > been out the market all that long. It's not like one is looking for a > NOS chassis for a Marantz 9 amp from almost 50 years ago or such. > > Is this indeed correct? AFAIK it is the expensive VFD displays that are the issue for the TP, SB3 etc. If the manufacturers are no longer making them, there is little to be done. -- Phil Leigh You want to see the signal path BEFORE it gets onto a CD/vinyl...it ain't what you'd call minimal... Touch(wired/XP) - TACT 2.2X (Linear PSU) + Good Vibrations S/W - MF Triplethreat(Audiocom full mods) - Linn 5103 - Aktiv 5.1 system (6x LK140's, ESPEK/TRIKAN/KATAN/SEIZMIK 10.5), Townsend Supertweeters, Blue Jeans Digital,Kimber Speaker & Chord Interconnect cables Kitchen Boom, Outdoors: SB Radio Phil Leigh's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=85 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=77638 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Transporter volume-control digital input
cliveb;532132 Wrote: > Ah, right, in that case I agree: that much digital attenuation is > definitely to be avoided. > > Funny thing is, though, that Fxdwg123 said he preferred the sound of > the TP/DAC direct to his power amps *with 48dB of digital attenuation* > over the sound of the TP/DAC at 100% through his Meridian G02. If he's > using 16 bit source material, then -48dB doesn't actually lose much if > any resolution through a 24 bit DAC (ignoring non-linearity of the > lower bits). All it does is degrade the S/N ratio. If he's listening at > fairly low levels, I posit that the extra noise could still be > inaudible. And no 24bit DAC actually resolves 24bits. More like 20bits for a good 24bit DAC. So now your talking -24dB before you start losing bits (Also ignoring non-linearity of lower bits which I believe is critical) -- mswlogo XP > Cat5 > Transporter/DuetController > SPDIF > Meridian G68 > DSP6000, DSP5500HC, DSP5000 XP > Cat5 > SB3 > SPDIF > Meridian DSP5000 XP > Cat5 > DuetReceiver > SPDIF > Meridian G91 > DSP5000 'My Transporter Setup' (http://forums.slimdevices.com/showpost.php?p=350741&postcount=45) 'Hitch Hikers Guide to Meridian' (http://www.meridianunplugged.com) mswlogo's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=9090 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=76659 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] AC Power Overload Error on Transporter
Sean has posted about this issue before and I think he understands it and greatly improved it but it's not quite eliminated. It sounds to me that something is constantly sampling the voltage and occasionally gets interrupted too long and miscalculates what it thinks the voltage is and trips. I hope he can consult or something on the issue and eventually get it resolved. It's a wonderful unit other than this glitch. -- mswlogo XP > Cat5 > Transporter/DuetController > SPDIF > Meridian G68 > DSP6000, DSP5500HC, DSP5000 XP > Cat5 > SB3 > SPDIF > Meridian DSP5000 XP > Cat5 > DuetReceiver > SPDIF > Meridian G91 > DSP5000 'My Transporter Setup' (http://forums.slimdevices.com/showpost.php?p=350741&postcount=45) 'Hitch Hikers Guide to Meridian' (http://www.meridianunplugged.com) mswlogo's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=9090 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=71526 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] AC Power Overload Error on Transporter
Sean has posted about this issue before and I think he understands it and greatly improved it but it's not quite eliminated. It sounds to me that something is constantly sampling the voltage and occasionally gets interrupted too long and miscalculates what it thinks the voltage is and trips. I hope he can consult or something on the issue and eventually get it resolved. It's a wonderful unit other than this glitch. -- mswlogo XP > Cat5 > Transporter/DuetController > SPDIF > Meridian G68 > DSP6000, DSP5500HC, DSP5000 XP > Cat5 > SB3 > SPDIF > Meridian DSP5000 XP > Cat5 > DuetReceiver > SPDIF > Meridian G91 > DSP5000 'My Transporter Setup' (http://forums.slimdevices.com/showpost.php?p=350741&postcount=45) 'Hitch Hikers Guide to Meridian' (http://www.meridianunplugged.com) mswlogo's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=9090 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=71526 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] DAC Resolution Test and Don't EVER use Digital Volume Control
Wow lot posts since I last checked this thread. Folks I'm well aware of Practice vs Theory. The point of the test is to check *ROUGHLY* what your limit is. I was actually surprised I could easily hear 18bits or more (GRANTED at full analog volume). Also keep in mind when you use digital attenuation your shifting EVERY bit down into a worse performing range. So in "Practice" it's actually worse than this very simple signal. Sorry on the mix up on 440Hz vs 3.5K. I had two sets and mixed the first two up. It's not that big a deal because I expect most will get past the first two test files and the rest are consistent labeled correctly. When I did my testing I bypassed my digital Preamp for those questioning what Meridian is doing. I tested with Meridian DSP speakers that don't upsample. It's basically a DAC/Preamp/Amp/Speaker all in one box. I've convinced a bunch of Meridian owners to reconfigure their preamp to basically run full scale and not let the processor attenuate even one 1/2 a single bit (3dB). 21 folks say it sounds better 0 say it has no change. This was effectively removing rough 3-6dB of digital attenuation. Then I dug into why this is so and why 24bit doesn't avoid problems with digital attenuation. Will you hear the difference attenuating Lady Gaga digitally, probably not. Digital Attenuation is BAD BAD BAD BAD even just a little is BAD. This test is only part of it. It was mainly to show you can't hear 24bits from your DAC even in UNREASLISTIC extreme cases but you can easily hear over 16bits. They say human hearing has 120dB dynamic range. Another test I may do is take a nice delicate classical piece of music and stuff noise in bits 17-24, then 18-24, then 18-24. I'll bet you can easily hear it even at normal levels past 16bits. This will be a more realistic test. I used Audacity to generate the test files. But I would like to make a cleaner set they are a little rough but they got the job done. -- mswlogo XP > Cat5 > Transporter/DuetController > SPDIF > Meridian G68 > DSP6000, DSP5500HC, DSP5000 XP > Cat5 > SB3 > SPDIF > Meridian DSP5000 XP > Cat5 > DuetReceiver > SPDIF > Meridian G91 > DSP5000 'My Transporter Setup' (http://forums.slimdevices.com/showpost.php?p=350741&postcount=45) 'Hitch Hikers Guide to Meridian' (http://www.meridianunplugged.com) mswlogo's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=9090 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=77725 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Transporter Display problems
I can see not supplying parts for a relatively inexpensive SB3/Classic that's out of warranty, but I'm rather taken aback that Logitech wouldn't support a $2,000 piece of equipment. The Transporter hasn't been out the market all that long. It's not like one is looking for a NOS chassis for a Marantz 9 amp from almost 50 years ago or such. Is this indeed correct? -- mlsstl mlsstl's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=9598 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=77638 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Transporter Display problems
Mnyb;538142 Wrote: > Is it possible to use some used SB3 or SB2 as donor for the display ? is > it the same part. That's right, I have slaughtered a sb3 and the display built into the transporter. All works perfectly except the death-SB3. -- robert62 robert62's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=37678 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=77638 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Any audiophiles got a SB Touch to beta test?
Anyone able to compare the sound of these 2 devices? I'd be curious to hear the result. (obviously the Touch has the 96k file capability, which isn't a point of comparison, but let's ignore that and compare the 2 as they reproduce standard 16/44.1) Thanks -- firedog Tranquil PC fanless WHS server running SqueezeServer; SB Duet through Empirical Audio Pace Car; MF X-150 amp, MF V DAC3, Devore Gibbon Super 8 Speakers; Mirage MS-12 sub; Dual 506 + Ortofon 20 (occasional use); sometimes use PC with M-Audio 192 as digital source. SB Boom in second room. Arcam CD82 which I don't use anymore, even though it's a very good player. firedog's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=11550 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=70167 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Squeezebox Duet and Beresford Caiman DAC
dogsnadgers;541566 Wrote: > I too use the Duet with a T-7510 and I am very pleased with the sound, I > sold my Naim CD5i as I couldn't tell the difference, unplugging the DAC > from a cheap power strip and plugging it straight into un-switched wall > sockets improved the sound dramatically so no regrets selling the CD > player. > I use it with a Naim Nait5i and Neat Motive 2's, it has a lovely > transparency to the sound, from comments on here I am considering > upgrading to the Touch though! If you do a comparison between non-external DAC and DAC would be welcome. Currently using a Touch into (no DAC) an elderly Naim 32/250 Pre/power amp. -- spile spile's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=37780 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=78036 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] DAC Resolution Test and Don't EVER use Digital Volume Control
Thanks for all your help chaps, much appreciated. I'll go and have another play with the setup over the weekend. I like the idea of using the 518 as a preamp and keeping things 'digital' as long as possible but the 502 is such a lovely piece of kit that it seems a shame not to use it! Many thanks -- acanning acanning's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=13303 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=77725 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
