Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Transporter EAC vs. CD audio... Throwing Down the Gauntlet !!!
Toy Maker;637606 Wrote: > Most if not ALL of the 15+ systems that will be at the fest are In the > $10,000+ range... ours fall into the $50,000 range. Not sure what $300 > units you are talking about... I hope that not all of systems are all Carver equipment:) Toy Maker;637606 Wrote: > The perfect outcome in my opinion would be in test-1, that there is no > difference, and we never even go on to test-2 > I hope the outcome IS null, that they DO sound the same. THAT IS THE > TEST. I beg to differ. The best outcome would be where Mr. Golden Ears hears a difference and actually prefers the wav/flac files over the CD. Then truly justice would be served. -- ralphpnj Lock, Stock and Two Smoking Barrels -> Snatch -> The Transporter -> Transporter 2 (oops) -> Touch 'Last.fm' (http://www.last.fm/user/jazzfann/) ralphpnj's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=10827 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=88364 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Transporter EAC vs. CD audio... Throwing Down the Gauntlet !!!
Toy Maker;637606 Wrote: > Most if not ALL of the 15+ systems that will be at the fest are In the > $10,000+ range... ours fall into the $50,000 range. Not sure what $300 > units you are talking about... Probably the $300 Sennheiser headphones you mention in the first post on the Carver forums. Toy Maker;637606 Wrote: > I recently learned that EAC wav files are 100% uncompressed, as perfect > to the original CD track as possible. So FLAC files are out too. I can > make FLAC files using EAC as well... We could A-B test wav vs FLAC for > a 2nd test. But we will have enough on our plate already I think. All wav files are uncompressed, not only "EAC wav files". And the compression in all FLAC files is _lossless_ (that's what the L stands for in FLAC), and therefore as equally perfect to the original CD track as wav. Toy Maker;637606 Wrote: > We came to the conclusion, that there will be (2) parts to the test. > 1) Can you hear a difference between the 2 sources... and Tom will > have to document what cues he hears in each recording, that don't match > up. > 2) Which of the 2 "sounds better, and why" test-2 will only have to be > done if test-1 is NOT NULL. > > The perfect outcome in my opinion would be in test-1, that there is no > difference, and we never even go on to test-2 > I hope the outcome IS null, that they DO sound the same. THAT IS THE > TEST. I don't see how you're going to do the statistics on that test. Part 1 sounds like it would be much better to do it as an ABX test, which would provide more conclusive results than Tom saying "I hear these differences". I understand that Tom won't know which source is A and which source is B, but will he know when you are switching them? -- aubuti aubuti's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=2074 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=88364 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Transporter EAC vs. CD audio... Throwing Down the Gauntlet !!!
Most if not ALL of the 15+ systems that will be at the fest are $10,000+ range... ours fall into the $50,000 range. Not sure what $300 units you are talking about... Well here was the latest update to the test as of last night The test is about the same... a few minor changes, but nothing major.. NO optic cables, as I have learned THEY SUCK. Digital RCA's will be the cable of choice, from each source to the pre-amp, which I will be MAKING myself ;) I recently learned that EAC wav files are 100% uncompressed, as perfect to the original CD track as possible. So FLAC files are out too. I can make FLAC files using EAC as well... We could A-B test wav vs FLAC for a 2nd test. But we will have enough on our plate already I think. The Proceed pre-amp is in, as the pre-amp/DAC that will decode both the CDP and the PC files. Other than that, I don't think much has changed since the start of this thread. Tom and I got off the phone a little while ago. We discussed "What the test should actually be" We came to the conclusion, that there will be (2) parts to the test. 1) Can you hear a difference between the 2 sources... and Tom will have to document what cues he hears in each recording, that don't match up. 2) Which of the 2 "sounds better, and why" test-2 will only have to be done if test-1 is NOT NULL. The equipment will be set up by me, and Tom will not know which source is which. He will only be able to go by source-A and source-B. We will be able to switch back and forth on the fly with the Proceed's remote, and if whatever CDP'r we use has a remote, then we will be able to cue up the PC file and the CD track simultaneously every time, and Tom will never know which source he's really listening to. The perfect outcome in my opinion would be in test-1, that there is no difference, and we never even go on to test-2 I hope the outcome IS null, that they DO sound the same. THAT IS THE TEST. -- Toy Maker (2) Squeezebox3's - (1) Transporter2 - 7TB Acer Home Server - iPad - iPeng And more toys than any one person should be aloud to own. Toy Maker's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=7397 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=88364 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] XTC Room Analyzer
Phil Leigh;637539 Wrote: > Darren, You can't address time and frequency separately..they are > intrinsically inter-linked! :-) Yes. Of course, damping the space with bass treatments will have a different effect to bass EQ. Each approach will have some effect both in time and frequency response but not an equivalent effect. Darren -- darrenyeats http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/richpub/listmania/byauthor/A3H57URKQB8AQO/ref=cm_pdp_content_listmania/203-7606506-5721503. SB3, SB Touch darrenyeats's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=10799 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=88429 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Blind tests? I don't get it...
Physics and engineering aren't all of science! If statements of perception aren't fact then Psychology isn't science. (It is science.) I am actually siding with those of you explaining the use of blind tests. However, incoherent arguments and inaccurate statements don't help even when in favour of a sound conclusion. If someone hears X is better or different to Y that is a fact. A blind test can help us determine whether this fact is due to physical causes or psychological. The fact that someone hears a blue cable is better than red doesn't necessarily mean the blue cable is better...or even different! Yes of course I agree. Darren -- darrenyeats http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/richpub/listmania/byauthor/A3H57URKQB8AQO/ref=cm_pdp_content_listmania/203-7606506-5721503. SB3, SB Touch darrenyeats's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=10799 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=88345 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] XTC Room Analyzer
Hi everyone, I am the US distributor of XTZ Room Analyzer. I've been working on putting up educational material on the different measurements on my website in the Acoustics University section. I'm also writing a white paper with another acoustician, Jeff Hedback, on the acoustic measurement targets for high end audio reproduction which will be released in a few months and is worth keeping an eye out for. All the best, Nyal -- Nyal Mellor Nyal Mellor's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=47716 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=88429 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Blind tests? I don't get it...
Dont worry, be happy! Its about enjoyment. Whatever increases the same is good (as long as it doesn't cause destruction of one's health, job, family etc.) The pursuit of audio satisfaction is a lifelong path for the "purest". Take your time, enjoy the ride. Take a "holistic" approach. We humans are not machines, but we use machines, science, and precision as a tool. Use it as a tool. -- earwaxer9 System: modified Winsome Labs Mouse, modified Maggie MMG's, Transporter, HSU sub 12, MSB DAC to 500 watt sub slave amp, JPS labs power cords, Silver audio interconnect, Audioquest Granite speaker cable. earwaxer9's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=39527 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=88345 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] downsampling 24/96 for listening tests
Steve - you can also use Sox with foobar. You dont have to do the command line thing. I'm a big fan of Sox, and foobar for that matter. While you are at it, have some fun with experimenting with the phase response slider. -- earwaxer9 System: modified Winsome Labs Mouse, modified Maggie MMG's, Transporter, HSU sub 12, MSB DAC to 500 watt sub slave amp, JPS labs power cords, Silver audio interconnect, Audioquest Granite speaker cable. earwaxer9's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=39527 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=88338 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Patch lead from wall to Touch ?
tank121;637464 Wrote: > Apologies Phil I know you've answered this elsewhere ? > > Best unshielded ? > > Cat5 OK ? It about 1ft run. I ran UTP, so the shielded question is academic. A Cat5 patch lead will be fine - all the Squeezebox family have Base100 as their maximum connection speed. Chris :) -- Stratmangler There is no element of personal attack in my response. Stratmangler's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=20387 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=88428 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Blind tests? I don't get it...
what about " pretty up" an ordinarie cable make it look very expensive and claim an truly awsome pricetag and let people do sigthed test with still very expensive Hi-end cables from other brands and compare ;) let it be a signal cable test, and the other cables should be of decent electrical parameters, i suspect that some really exotic designs are actually very " different " and could be picked out in tests ;) But wait, thats basically what "cable designers" are doing :confused: -- Mnyb Main hifi: Touch + CIA PS +MeridianG68J MeridianHD621 MeridianG98DH 2 x MeridianDSP5200 MeridianDSP5200HC 2 xMeridianDSP3100 +Rel Stadium 3 sub. Bedroom/Office: Boom Kitchen: SB3 + powered Fostex PM0.4 Misc use: Radio (with battery) iPad 64gB wifi +3g with iPengHD & SqueezePad Mnyb's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=4143 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=88345 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Transporter EAC vs. CD audio... Throwing Down the Gauntlet !!!
It looks like a worthwhile test. Some comments: Would it not be better to use a fairly high end system? Even high end headphones, rather than $300 ones? Secondly, if the ears of the listener are so good that he can note down the differences, why not ask him to say which an unknown player is? This would be an ABX test - you play A and B, to the listener's satisfaction, then ask him which X is. If he can get this right, it would be really strong evidence for a difference. Thirdly, could you randomise the inputs for each test, i.e. in test 1 A is the CD, in test 2 B is, and so on. Then the listener could say which he thinks is the best. If he consistently chooses one, above statistical likelihood, then you have evidence. This is a lot easier to run than ABX. Finally, it's worth getting in someone who knows statistics to help you to decide how many tests to run. -- adamslim MPD on Linux PC, Caiman, DIY Kondo M7 pre, 6B4G SET, Lowther monsters SB3, Charlize 2, DIY open baffle speakers Boom x 2, Radio adamslim's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=7355 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=88364 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Speaker Cable - Upgrade ?
Ron Olsen;637438 Wrote: > Anyone thinking of buying expensive speaker wire should take the time to > get educated on the subject: http://www.roger-russell.com/wire/wire.htm > > And then buy high-quality wire for less than $2/ft. from a source like > Blue Jeans: http://www.bluejeanscable.com/store/speaker/index.htm > > Spending lots of money on speaker wire may give you pride of ownership > but it isn't going to give you better sound quality. > > Owning a Rolex watch may make you feel good and impress your friends, > but it won't tell time any better than a $20 Timex. Only watch out for really low impedance speakers they need thicker cables (more cross section of copper) And keep them short and if they are not short don't tie the leftover to a nice bundle that looks like and act as a coil . -- Mnyb Main hifi: Touch + CIA PS +MeridianG68J MeridianHD621 MeridianG98DH 2 x MeridianDSP5200 MeridianDSP5200HC 2 xMeridianDSP3100 +Rel Stadium 3 sub. Bedroom/Office: Boom Kitchen: SB3 + powered Fostex PM0.4 Misc use: Radio (with battery) iPad 64gB wifi +3g with iPengHD & SqueezePad Mnyb's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=4143 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=88346 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Blind tests? I don't get it...
FACT: I'm annoyed I get inconsistent results from my two testing methods. 1. When I see (know) which cable is being used I do hear a difference. 2. When I do not see (do not know) which cable is being used I do not hear a difference. FACT: I'm perplexed because another variable delivers very consistent results using both testing methods 1 & 2. This occurs when the cable is unplugged. ;) -- toby10 toby10's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=12553 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=88345 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Blind tests? I don't get it...
darrenyeats;637530 Wrote: > I would say hot is just a word. > > It is hot. Subjective statement. > I feel it is hot. Factual statement. > > The second is clearly a fact because it is a statement about how a > person perceives something. Science knows about the placebo effect > precisely through experiments that use such "feely" observations as > data (facts) as input. > > Perceptions are facts only when they are described explicitly that > way. > > "You're annoying!" is a poor phrase compared to "You annoy me!" The > former is inflammatory and subjective. The latter must be accepted. > Understanding the very profound difference between these two is key in > many walks of life. > Darren The point made in post 59 is the only one which really matters: unless a statement asserts a testable and falsifiable proposition then in this context (broadly about how to make your hifi sound better)it is meaningless and/or unhelpful. The distinction you refer to between "I feel annoyed" and "you are annoying" is well known and well ventilated in the fields of counselling, management theory etc but it has nothing whatsoever to do with electrical engineering. Of course the statement "I feel annoyed" cannot be vouchsafed (essentially for the same reasons as the Cogito), but that actually means that outside the sphere of personal relations it is meaningless or unhelpful. Its very certainty precludes it from imparting knowledge. Whilst it is strictly true that "I feel annoyed/hear an improvement" is a fact of sorts, it is not necessarily a fact which imparts any useful knowledge about the world. So back to the OP, the reason why blind tests are useful is to distinguish between not very useful facts about people's beliefs on the one hand and useful facts about (in this case)audio equipment. -- adamdea adamdea's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=37603 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=88345 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] XTC Room Analyzer
darrenyeats;637536 Wrote: > These sorts of tools distinguish themselves by identifying time-based > issues e.g. RT60 and waterfall. Actually these are the issues I am > addressing first (for slightly intuitive reasons) rather than frequency > response. (And as an extra I hope FR will get better anyway when the > time-based issues are addressed.) > > Solving time-based problems requires room treatments mostly, I think. > > I agree with Phil that you should get everything in and live with it > for a while first! > Darren, You can't address time and frequency separately..they are intrinsically inter-linked! :-) -- Phil Leigh You want to see the signal path BEFORE it gets onto a CD/vinyl...it ain't what you'd call minimal... Touch(wired/XP) - Audiolense 3.3/2.0+INGUZ DRC - MF M1 DAC - Linn 5103 - full Aktiv 5.1 system (6x LK140's, ESPEK/TRIKAN/KATAN/SEIZMIK 10.5), Pekin Tuner, Townsend Supertweeters, Blue Jeans Belden Digital,Kimber 8TC Speaker & Chord Signature Plus Interconnect cables Stax4070+SRM7/II phones Kitchen Boom, Outdoors: SB Radio, Harmony One remote for everything. Phil Leigh's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=85 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=88429 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] XTC Room Analyzer
These sorts of tools distinguish themselves by identifying time-based issues e.g. RT60 and waterfall. Actually these are the issues I am addressing first (for slightly intuitive reasons) rather than frequency response. (And as an extra I hope FR will get better anyway when the time-based issues are addressed.) Solving time-based problems requires room treatments mostly, I think. I agree with Phil that you should get everything in and live with it for a while first! Darren -- darrenyeats http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/richpub/listmania/byauthor/A3H57URKQB8AQO/ref=cm_pdp_content_listmania/203-7606506-5721503. SB3, SB Touch darrenyeats's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=10799 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=88429 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Blind tests? I don't get it...
Phil Leigh;637482 Wrote: > So, when you hear that holographic imaging from your new linear PSU, > that's a fact?...no. It's only a fact to the rest of us if you can get > consensus on the existence of that holographic imaging. Good luck with > that, but the real point is you can't claim that your personal > opinion/experience is "fact". > > By the way, "hot" is not a fact; it's a subjective assessment. Hotter > (than something else) is a MEASURABLE fact... I would say hot is just a word. It is hot. Subjective statement. I feel it is hot. Factual statement. The second is clearly a fact because it is a statement about how a person perceives something. Science knows about the placebo effect precisely through experiments that use such "feely" observations as data (facts) as input. Perceptions are facts only when they are described explicitly that way. "You're annoying!" is a poor phrase compared to "You annoy me!" The former is inflammatory and subjective. The latter must be accepted. Understanding the very profound difference between these two is key in many walks of life. Darren -- darrenyeats http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/richpub/listmania/byauthor/A3H57URKQB8AQO/ref=cm_pdp_content_listmania/203-7606506-5721503. SB3, SB Touch darrenyeats's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=10799 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=88345 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
