Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] soundcheck's Touch Toolbox 3.0
adamdea;669408 Wrote: > None of this takes away from klaus' pioneering work for which I am very > grateful. me tooKlaus hasn't ever put a gun to anyone's head demanding to use his mod's or else The process is so easy and reversible, everyone can make a choice rather easily as to what they prefer. Checks and balances are critical.debate is healthy. -- Stilly77 Stilly77's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=43680 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=91322 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] soundcheck's Touch Toolbox 3.0
guidof;669401 Wrote: > For years I assumed that coax was the way to go. Then I read Phil > Leigh's post in which he questioned that conventional wisdom. So I > thought I would give Toslink a chance. I first tried an Amazon Basic > optical cable(about $8). I didn't expect much, but I was astonished at > how different my main system (see below) sounded with this cheapy. More > detail, better definition of individual instrument lines and, > especially, lots more "air" around individual instruments and voices. A > very seductive presentation, marred, unfortunately, by a hardening of > timbres and overall rough character of the sound. > > But now I was on a roll. Hoping to correct the Amazon's cable > weaknesses and preserve its virtues, I next tried an X-series coax by > Emotiva ($19), on the strength of the excellent experience I've had > with the balanced version of these interconnects. It sounded a lot more > refined than my Have, but not as open and airy as the Amazon optical. > > Maybe an Emotiva Toslink ($16) would do the trick? I tried that. Close, > but no cigar. > > At this point, I was determined to find a "better" Toslik. I turned to > Lifatec. They specialize in fiber optics, including medical > applications. I ordered 3 feet of their Silflex Glass cable ($70), on a > 30 day return, full refund basis. > > This Toslink did it! Now I got the accurate timbres and tonal balance > of the Emotiva coax, but also the infectious three-dimensionality and > air of the Amazon Toslink. > > In my system, the overall sound signature of the Silflex Toslink and > Emotiva coax are essentially the same, but the presentation through the > Silflex is clearly closer to hearing live musicians perform in a real > space. > > Each system is different. But if you feel adventurous, you too may want > to give Toslink a chance. > > Best luck! > > Guido F. thanks for that feedback, appreciated, will look into it! -- Stilly77 Stilly77's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=43680 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=91322 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] soundcheck's Touch Toolbox 3.0
cut-throat;669424 Wrote: > attention starved? He brings up valid points about networking, > unfortunately it's taken personal when it shouldn't. > > I say keep up the debate in this thread it's healthy.+2 +3 -- lake_eleven lake_eleven's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=48979 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=91322 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] soundcheck's Touch Toolbox 3.0
Phil Leigh;669252 Wrote: > Is "sleeping giant" a term of endearment? :-) > Sorry to spoil everyone's love-in... > > However, last time I looked this was a FORUM and therefore we are > allowed to have differing views and opinions. No worries Phil. I like you more than I hate you. :) -- RadioClash RadioClash's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=2839 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=91322 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] soundcheck's Touch Toolbox 3.0
jeff flowerday;669269 Wrote: > attention starved? He brings up valid points about networking, > unfortunately it's taken personal when it shouldn't. > > I say keep up the debate in this thread it's healthy. +2 -- Cut-Throat Cut-Throat's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=43167 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=91322 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] soundcheck's Touch Toolbox 3.0
> Stilly77;669386 I also support debate. However I am not really sure what debate there really is to have. It seems that the basic fact is understood that there is no such thing as tc/ip jitter in the sense that there is spdif jitter and that any effect would have to work via loading the touch hardware and/or its psu. This is no big deal for klaus since the whole philosophy of the toolbox is to lower the processor load on the touch by cutting out unnecessary processes. So far so good. Now this load reduction may or may not affect the touch's analog outs to an extent which is perceptible. There is some evidence that it does affect the output. Perceptibly is a different matter. Most people on the audiophile forum use external dacs however and whether the mods can significantly affect these is a whole other ball game. Obviously I am ignoring the subjective reports which are depending on ones point of view A the only thing that matters B of no interest whatsoever ; or C somewhere imbetween A and B These reports are also to say the least not entirely consistent. I am not really sure what debate there is to be had. I think people should be aware that conventional wisdom would have it that the likelihood of any of this making any significant difference to a competently designed dac is very slight. Of course the same goes for digital cables and cd transports which are reviewed as having noticeable subjective effects in every issue of every(?) hifi magazine. Conventional wisdom may be wrong and lots of audiophiles are utterly uninterested in it, even if they are even dimly aware that it differs somewhat from hifi magazine op ed. The only point in rehearsing this IMHO is in case anyone who had done no general reading on the subject, and stumbled on this forum, were under the misapprehension that everyone was agreed that turning off your touches wifi was likely to make your benchmark/lavry/ Weiss dac sound better. I only pick these examples because IIRC the designers of these dacs have published views which tend to suggest they would be very surprised if this was the case. Perhaps one day John Atkinson or paul miller can be persuaded to do an series of tests using touches with and without mods into various dacs to see if the jitter and distortion measurements change much. I have my doubts that this will make much difference if they do not show a significant change because it will be said that they are measuring the wrong thing. None of this takes away from klaus' pioneering work for which I am very grateful. -- adamdea adamdea's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=37603 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=91322 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] soundcheck's Touch Toolbox 3.0
Klaus, I remember back when I crimped ethernet cables by hand, I would just peel the sheilding back & not terminate it-- in prebuilt cables, are the sheilds tied to one of the pins? or how does that work? -- sckramer CiAudio vdc-Sb - Touch (TT 2.0 mods) PSaudio DL3 DAC (Cullen 4 mods) - PSaudio Trio C-100 Amp (Cullen 3 mods) Energy Veritas 2.2i speakers (mundorf silver oil capacitor, inductor, and resistor mods) Martin Logan Depth i (x2) PSaudio ac3 / Cardas power cables - PSaudio Duet - Cardas clear light interconnect -- black cat veloce digital cable - Audioquest slate biwire spkr cables sckramer's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=20311 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=91322 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] soundcheck's Touch Toolbox 3.0
Stilly77;669108 Wrote: > I will and thanks for the feedback Guidobesides the Touch, I have > two SB'3 and various laptop's / PC's so having a external DAC (my first > one) will be interesting. > > What's your feeling on optical cables? Plastic, glass ??? For years I assumed that coax was the way to go. Then I read Phil Leigh's post in which he questioned that conventional wisdom. So I thought I would give Toslink a chance. I first tried an Amazon Basic optical cable(about $8). I didn't expect much, but I was astonished at how different my main system (see below) sounded with this cheapy. More detail, better definition of individual instrument lines and, especially, lots more "air" around individual instruments and voices. A very seductive presentation, marred, unfortunately, by a hardening of timbres and overall rough character of the sound. But now I was on a roll. Hoping to correct the Amazon's cable weaknesses and preserve its virtues, I next tried an X-series coax by Emotiva ($19), on the strength of the excellent experience I've had with the balanced version of these interconnects. It sounded a lot more refined than my Have, but not as open and airy as the Amazon optical. Maybe an Emotiva Toslink ($16) would do the trick? I tried that. Close, but no cigar. At this point, I was determined to find a "better" Toslik. I turned to Lifatec. They specialize in fiber optics, including medical applications. I ordered 3 feet of their Silflex Glass cable ($70), on a 30 day return, full refund basis. This Toslink did it! Now I got the accurate timbres and tonal balance of the Emotiva coax, but also the infectious three-dimensionality and air of the Amazon Toslink. In my system, the overall sound signature of the Silflex Toslink and Emotiva coax are essentially the same, but the presentation through the Silflex is clearly closer to hearing live musicians perform in a real space. Each system is different. But if you feel adventurous, you too may want to give Toslink a chance. Best luck! Guido F. -- guidof MUSIC ROOM: Marantz TT 15S1 Turntable, Virtuoso Wood Cartridge -> Conrad Johnson Motif preamp Oppo BDP--83 Universal Player; Squeezebox Touch (digital out) -> Cambridge Azur 840C DAC -> Adcom GFP-750 preamp -> Music Reference RM-200 Mk II amp -> Martin Logan SL3 speakers DSpeaker Antimode 8033 equalizer -> REL T1 Subwoofer BEDROOM: Squeezebox Touch (analog out) -> Little Dot Mk III amp -> AKG K701 headphones SECOND BEDROOM: Squeezebox Touch -> Grado SR125 headphones guidof's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=40448 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=91322 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] soundcheck's Touch Toolbox 3.0
SoftwireEngineer;669363 Wrote: > Since I am a vegetarian I have tried other kinds of grease (optrix, > auric illuminator, mikrosmooth )and IME they do sound different :-) > I know it is controversial .. feel free to have a laugh :) it's no more ridiculous than many of the other claims made here, if you say you notice a difference, then you must. I haven't experienced that phenomena yet. -- Stilly77 Stilly77's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=43680 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=91322 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] soundcheck's Touch Toolbox 3.0
On 11 Nov 2011, at 14:30, RadioClash wrote: > > Did you guys really have to wake up that sleeping monster, Phil Leigh? > It was so peaceful. > Yes, but so much less fun. ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] soundcheck's Touch Toolbox 3.0
Stilly77;669104 Wrote: > That one ranks up there with the jitter arguement! > > I suppose a cd with fried chicken grease would sound different after a > good cleaning :) > > My cd's are pristine..usually in and out of the machine. > > I used to spin vinyl and don't miss that debacle. Since I am a vegetarian I have tried other kinds of grease (optrix, auric illuminator, mikrosmooth )and IME they do sound different :-) I know it is controversial .. feel free to have a laugh -- SoftwireEngineer Main Wellborne Labs Power Supply -> SBT -> Zu Ash Coax -> TACT Digital Integrated Amp-> Zu Wax Speaker Cables -> Silverline Sonatina. Power Conditioning by Running Springs Audio Haley Mobile FLAC Files->TECLAST T51 Mp3 Player -> Silver Cables -> Ultimate Ears Triple Fi 10 SoftwireEngineer's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=7000 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=91322 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] soundcheck's Touch Toolbox 3.0
I do TCP/IP/socket programming at work (with CS/EE major). Network throughput can cause buffering logic to churn and put different loads on the CPU. This might have either powersupply or network chip related interference in the SB. When it comes to sound, some people have keen hearing and the silly little squeezebox is a complex system at that level of hearing. You have to consider all variables, recognize/accept the phenomenon first and then find reasons behind them. (note, Apple would not support Flash because of the CPU load/battery drain) -- SoftwireEngineer Main Wellborne Labs Power Supply -> SBT -> Zu Ash Coax -> TACT Digital Integrated Amp-> Zu Wax Speaker Cables -> Silverline Sonatina. Power Conditioning by Running Springs Audio Haley Mobile FLAC Files->TECLAST T51 Mp3 Player -> Silver Cables -> Ultimate Ears Triple Fi 10 SoftwireEngineer's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=7000 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=91322 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] soundcheck's Touch Toolbox 3.0
Folks. If everything would be that easy... I'm well aware that there are massive EMI/RFI and noise respectively serious grounding issues in private households. I'm a telecommunications engineer btw. You can read about that on my blog for more than a year btw. The first measure was to use unshielded ethernet cable. It got better, but that's wasn't solving all the upstream impact. How would you guys explain that different server settings or different OS or different servers make a difference? Yep. All common-mode noise. I know. As you've seen some posts earlier, somebody had a bottleneck in the network. He got rid of it and everything got better. I bet you. The data he received were always correct. We turn off WLAN and things get better. There's more than one factor to look at. How you'd finally call the baby is another question. It's not about who is wrong or right. Many people do experience that impact. What's missing is the explanation for it. Cheers -- soundcheck ::: ' Touch Toolbox 3.0 and more' (http://soundcheck-audio.blogspot.com) ::: by soundcheck soundcheck's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=34383 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=91322 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] soundcheck's Touch Toolbox 3.0
Sometimes there can an issue when the screen is disabled and you can't check the server has started and not stopped. Is there a way of doing this via winscp or squeezecommander etc ? -- tank121 Squeezebox touch Arcam A85 amp Chord rumour speaker cable Dali Mentor Menuets on Custom Design stands Room 2 Boom Bedroom RADIO tank121's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=17169 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=91322 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] soundcheck's Touch Toolbox 3.0
I'm sure these mods do make a difference in standalone mode. Surely if each mod is taking some strain off the touch then it will be more apparent in standalone mode ? Can someone else test this to make sure it's not just my ears playing tricks on me! -- tank121 Squeezebox touch Arcam A85 amp Chord rumour speaker cable Dali Mentor Menuets on Custom Design stands Room 2 Boom Bedroom RADIO tank121's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=17169 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=91322 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] soundcheck's Touch Toolbox 3.0
Phil Leigh;669170 Wrote: > Instead of issuing personal attacks against me, perhaps you'd like to > explain HOW network "packet jitter" can possibly impact audio quality? > I'm sure the entire industry would like to know. > > Just completely disconnect the network from the SB (pull the ethernet > plug from the SB) - does the audio sound quality change during the 20 > seconds or so it takes to drain the hardware buffer? - no it doesn't. > During this time, The Touch is doing NO network related processing, > since it is receiving no TCP packets. The sound quality should actually > IMPROVE according to your theories. > > Anyone can try this for themselves. This test removes the network AND > the SBS server hardware/software from the equation. > > > Of course, your computer and the low-quality power supplies of your > network devices may still be injecting crap onto the mains and into the > air... really gotta side with Phil on this one, maybe there is a sonic change, but only because the touch is bleeding some sort of noise from that network section of the hardware over into the analog & spdif section, causing audio jitter or whatever-- crapshoot & beyond what I am not willing to tweak (all this router/server/network stuff) that far aaargh :) -- sckramer CiAudio vdc-Sb - Touch (TT 2.0 mods) PSaudio DL3 DAC (Cullen 4 mods) - PSaudio Trio C-100 Amp (Cullen 3 mods) Energy Veritas 2.2i speakers (mundorf silver oil capacitor, inductor, and resistor mods) Martin Logan Depth i (x2) PSaudio ac3 / Cardas power cables - PSaudio Duet - Cardas clear light interconnect -- black cat veloce digital cable - Audioquest slate biwire spkr cables sckramer's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=20311 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=91322 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] soundcheck's Touch Toolbox 3.0
Howard Turkster;669261 Wrote: > Your posts reveal you're attention-starved, whether or not you > understand that. Attention starved? He brings up valid points about networking, unfortunately some people seem to take it personal. I say keep up the debate in this thread it's healthy. -- Jeff Flowerday Jeff Flowerday's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=15883 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=91322 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] soundcheck's Touch Toolbox 3.0
Howard Turkster;669261 Wrote: > Your posts reveal you're attention-starved, whether or not you > understand that. I very much doubt thatI wouldn't read too much into what people post, its a forum on the internet - you can really understand what people are fully like from it -- socistep socistep's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=18860 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=91322 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] soundcheck's Touch Toolbox 3.0
Phil Leigh;669257 Wrote: > I'm not attacking this thread. I haven't said a word about about the > mods. > I was merely commenting on the relevance or otherwise of the terms > "ethernet jitter" and "packet jitter". > > This post reveals far about you than you probably intended. Your posts reveal you're attention-starved, whether or not you understand that. -- Howard Turkster *Soft mods*: SC TT 2.0 + Dynaudio's mods *Components*: Squeezebox Touch (analogue outs) - Rega Mira 3 - Boston Acoustics VR2s - Rel T2 sub, D-Link hub between touch & server *Cables*: VH Audio Spectrum (Cu) RCAs, Chord Rumour speaker wire, custom neutrik speakon cable (sub) *Power*: Touch stock power supply with SBooster filter VH Audio Flavor 4 power cable x2 (amp and sub) stock DLink power supply Porter A/C Ports *Server*: Squeezebox server on Windows 7, Core2duo Howard Turkster's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=39563 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=91322 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] soundcheck's Touch Toolbox 3.0
debate is good, I guess in this sense its a very detailed and technical discussion - however someone like Phil is obviously a very knowledgable person on the subject -- socistep socistep's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=18860 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=91322 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] soundcheck's Touch Toolbox 3.0
Howard Turkster;669253 Wrote: > Why don't we create a whole separate thread for Phil in which to attack > this thread instead of cluttering up this one? I'm not attacking this thread. I haven't said a word about about the mods. I was merely commenting on the relevance or otherwise of the terms "ethernet jitter" and "packet jitter". This post reveals far about you than you probably intended. -- Phil Leigh You want to see the signal path BEFORE it gets onto a CD/vinyl...it ain't what you'd call minimal... Touch(wired/W7)+Teddy Pardo PSU - Audiolense 3.3/2.0+INGUZ DRC - MF M1 DAC - Linn 5103 - full Aktiv 5.1 system (6x LK140's, ESPEK/TRIKAN/KATAN/SEIZMIK 10.5), Pekin Tuner, Townsend Supertweeters,VdH Toslink,Kimber 8TC Speaker & Chord Signature Plus Interconnect cables Stax4070+SRM7/II phones Kitchen Boom, Outdoors: SB Radio, Harmony One remote for everything. Phil Leigh's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=85 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=91322 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] soundcheck's Touch Toolbox 3.0
Phil is not attacking anyone. Why are some people threatened by engineering and facts? This is not a religious forum, although audiophilia is sometimes similar to a religion I suppose. -- garym Location 1: Vortexbox Appliance 6TB (1.10) > SbS 7.6.2 > Transporter, Touch, Boom, Radio w/Battery (all ethernet except Radio) Location 2: Win7(64) laptop > LMS 7.7.0 > Touch>Benchmark DAC I, Boom, Radio w/Battery (all ethernet except Radio and laptop) Retired: SB3, Duet Receiver Controlled at both locations with: iPhone (iPeng), iPad (iPengHD & SqueezePad), CONTROLLER, or SqueezePlay 7.7 on Win7(64) laptop Ripping (FLAC) - dbpoweramp, Additional Tagging - mp3tag garym's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=17325 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=91322 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] soundcheck's Touch Toolbox 3.0
Why don't we create a whole separate thread for Phil in which to attack this thread instead of cluttering up this one? -- Howard Turkster *Soft mods*: SC TT 2.0 + Dynaudio's mods *Components*: Squeezebox Touch (analogue outs) - Rega Mira 3 - Boston Acoustics VR2s - Rel T2 sub, D-Link hub between touch & server *Cables*: VH Audio Spectrum (Cu) RCAs, Chord Rumour speaker wire, custom neutrik speakon cable (sub) *Power*: Touch stock power supply with SBooster filter VH Audio Flavor 4 power cable x2 (amp and sub) stock DLink power supply Porter A/C Ports *Server*: Squeezebox server on Windows 7, Core2duo Howard Turkster's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=39563 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=91322 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] soundcheck's Touch Toolbox 3.0
RadioClash;669216 Wrote: > Did you guys really have to wake up that sleeping giant Phil Leigh? It > was so peaceful. Is "sleeping giant" a term of endearment? :-) Sorry to spoil everyone's love-in... However, last time I looked this was a FORUM and therefore we are allowed to have differing views and opinions. -- Phil Leigh You want to see the signal path BEFORE it gets onto a CD/vinyl...it ain't what you'd call minimal... Touch(wired/W7)+Teddy Pardo PSU - Audiolense 3.3/2.0+INGUZ DRC - MF M1 DAC - Linn 5103 - full Aktiv 5.1 system (6x LK140's, ESPEK/TRIKAN/KATAN/SEIZMIK 10.5), Pekin Tuner, Townsend Supertweeters,VdH Toslink,Kimber 8TC Speaker & Chord Signature Plus Interconnect cables Stax4070+SRM7/II phones Kitchen Boom, Outdoors: SB Radio, Harmony One remote for everything. Phil Leigh's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=85 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=91322 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] soundcheck's Touch Toolbox 3.0
oh no, the thread has gone into very low level discussion on things the majority of users know nothing about :-) I think I'll go and put some music on, or maybe try and come up with a spotify playlist of songs with the name Jitter in the title -- socistep socistep's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=18860 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=91322 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] soundcheck's Touch Toolbox 3.0
soundcheck;669227 Wrote: > ...Your comments ""...Oh dear... "packet jitter" is only relevant to > network protocols..."" do sound kind of arrogant to me. > You suggest you'd understand the whole subject. I'm saying you don't. > If you just look at one aspect I call it pigeonhole thinking. What's > personal about that!?!? > > Cheers Me arrogant? - wow... No one on the planet understands the whole subject. However, I certainly understand how network or packet jitter cannot impact sound quality - especially when the device is not connected to a network :-) -- Phil Leigh You want to see the signal path BEFORE it gets onto a CD/vinyl...it ain't what you'd call minimal... Touch(wired/W7)+Teddy Pardo PSU - Audiolense 3.3/2.0+INGUZ DRC - MF M1 DAC - Linn 5103 - full Aktiv 5.1 system (6x LK140's, ESPEK/TRIKAN/KATAN/SEIZMIK 10.5), Pekin Tuner, Townsend Supertweeters,VdH Toslink,Kimber 8TC Speaker & Chord Signature Plus Interconnect cables Stax4070+SRM7/II phones Kitchen Boom, Outdoors: SB Radio, Harmony One remote for everything. Phil Leigh's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=85 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=91322 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] soundcheck's Touch Toolbox 3.0
praganj;669226 Wrote: > I don't know how it is possible, but the quality of the network affects > the sound quality. This is my experience. I tried two different routers > and four different switches dedicated to SBS-SBT connection and they all > affects the sound. Maybe when TCPIP packets arriving lets say in "waves" > instead of a steady stream are causing some short load peaks on the SBT > which affects the internal SBT clock ? > > SBT has a buffer. Is the SBS data buffered as a "music data - pcm ?" > after it was transferred from the TCPIP packets, or SBT has a buffer > before it happens ? > > If the buffer is keeping the "pcm data", than those data can be > influenced with a jitter caused by some load peaks on SBT before you > have disconnected the network cable. It is much more likely that the power supplies of the routers and switches are indirectly affecting the sound through RFI/EMI (assuming for a moment that there actually is a real change in the sound), rather than the way in which the routers/switches are doing their job of moving TCP/IP packets around. The hardware buffer simply holds blocks of data - there is NO CLOCK within that data and the data is demonstrably "bit-perfect". So, there is NO JITTER (of any sort) there - there can't be, because there is no clock to "jitter" against. The buffer either has data or no data - there is no other state the buffer can possibly be in. "Load peaks" on the SBT do not - cannot - impact the DATA content of the network data buffer in any way, and it has no TIMING context. So no, peaks CANNOT affect what is in the buffer - unless the peaks are so bad that they cause the network to fail to deliver packets and the buffer runs out of data - you would hear that! As I stated before, "packet jitter" is not relevant. It is theoretically possible for load peaks within the Touch to affect the DAC inside the Touch and (to a much lesser extent) external DAC's and cause jitter there. That is the main point of Klaus's work. I'm not discussing any of that (yet); I'm simply talking about how the network and the SB buffer work. -- Phil Leigh You want to see the signal path BEFORE it gets onto a CD/vinyl...it ain't what you'd call minimal... Touch(wired/W7)+Teddy Pardo PSU - Audiolense 3.3/2.0+INGUZ DRC - MF M1 DAC - Linn 5103 - full Aktiv 5.1 system (6x LK140's, ESPEK/TRIKAN/KATAN/SEIZMIK 10.5), Pekin Tuner, Townsend Supertweeters,VdH Toslink,Kimber 8TC Speaker & Chord Signature Plus Interconnect cables Stax4070+SRM7/II phones Kitchen Boom, Outdoors: SB Radio, Harmony One remote for everything. Phil Leigh's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=85 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=91322 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] soundcheck's Touch Toolbox 3.0
Phil Leigh;669170 Wrote: > Instead of issuing personal attacks against me, perhaps you'd like to > explain HOW network "packet jitter" can possibly impact audio quality? > I'm sure the entire industry would like to know. > > Just completely disconnect the network from the SB (pull the ethernet > plug from the SB) - does the audio sound quality change during the 20 > seconds or so it takes to drain the hardware buffer? - no it doesn't. > During this time, The Touch is doing NO network related processing, > since it is receiving no TCP packets. The sound quality should actually > IMPROVE according to your theories. > > Anyone can try this for themselves. This test removes the network AND > the SBS server hardware/software from the equation. > > > Of course, your computer and the low-quality power supplies of your > network devices may still be injecting crap onto the mains and into the > air... I don't know how it is possible, but the quality of the network affects the sound quality. This is my experience. I tried two different routers and four different switches dedicated to SBS-SBT connection and they all affects the sound. Maybe when TCPIP packets arriving lets say in "waves" instead of a steady stream are causing some short load peaks on the SBT which affects the internal SBT clock ? SBT has a buffer. Is the SBS data buffered as a "music data - pcm ?" after it was transferred from the TCPIP packets, or SBT has a buffer before it happens ? If the buffer is keeping the "pcm data", than those data can be influenced with a jitter caused by some load peaks on SBT before you have disconnected the network cable. -- praganj praganj's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=41091 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=91322 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] soundcheck's Touch Toolbox 3.0
Phil Leigh;669170 Wrote: > Instead of issuing personal attacks against me, perhaps you'd like to > explain HOW network "packet jitter" can possibly impact audio quality? > If I'd try to find out and explain the root cause behind all the areas of improvement, TT3.0 would have been launched in 2015 earliest. If I'd be black and white thinking as you do, I wouldn't have figured out any of my tweaks. I do not intend to do any scientific work here. If anybody would be willing to pay for it, please let me know. Following my (to all of you known, if your read my blog) strategy I consider highly efficient and result oriented. It just works out for me. Phil. If you'd be really ambitioned and interested you could be the one supporting the project. Find out the root cause of any of the mod associated improvements. Your comments ""...Oh dear... "packet jitter" is only relevant to network protocols..."" do sound kind of arrogant to me. You suggest you'd understand the whole subject. I'm saying you don't. If you just look at one aspect I call it pigeonhole thinking. What's personal about that!?!? Cheers -- soundcheck ::: ' Touch Toolbox 3.0 and more' (http://soundcheck-audio.blogspot.com) ::: by soundcheck soundcheck's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=34383 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=91322 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] soundcheck's Touch Toolbox 3.0
Phil Leigh;669170 Wrote: > Instead of issuing personal attacks against me, perhaps you'd like to > explain HOW network "packet jitter" can possibly impact audio quality? > If I'd try to find out and explain the root cause behind all the araes of improvement, TT3.0 would have been launched in 2015 earliest. If I'd be black and white thinking as you do, I wouldn't have figured out any of my tweaks. I do not intend to do any scientific work here. If anybody would be willing to pay for it, please let me know. Following my (to al of you known) strategy I ocnsider highly efficient and result oriented. It just works out for me. If you'd be really ambitioned and interested you could be the one supporting the project. Find out the root cause of any of the mod associated improvements. Your comments ""...Oh dear... "packet jitter" is only relevant to network protocols..."" do sound kind of arrogant to me. You suggest you'd understand the whole subject. I'm saying you don't. If you just look at one aspect I call it pigeonhole thinking. What's personal about that!?!? Cheers -- soundcheck ::: ' Touch Toolbox 3.0 and more' (http://soundcheck-audio.blogspot.com) ::: by soundcheck soundcheck's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=34383 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=91322 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] soundcheck's Touch Toolbox 3.0
Did you guys really have to wake up that sleeping monster, Phil Leigh? It was so peaceful. -- RadioClash RadioClash's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=2839 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=91322 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] soundcheck's Touch Toolbox 3.0
Is there a reason I can't connect to my Touch via Squeezeplay after running TT 3.0? Never had this problem with 2.0. -- Howard Turkster *Soft mods*: SC TT 2.0 + Dynaudio's mods *Components*: Squeezebox Touch (analogue outs) - Rega Mira 3 - Boston Acoustics VR2s - Rel T2 sub, D-Link hub between touch & server *Cables*: VH Audio Spectrum (Cu) RCAs, Chord Rumour speaker wire, custom neutrik speakon cable (sub) *Power*: Touch stock power supply with SBooster filter VH Audio Flavor 4 power cable x2 (amp and sub) stock DLink power supply Porter A/C Ports *Server*: Squeezebox server on Windows 7, Core2duo Howard Turkster's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=39563 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=91322 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] soundcheck's Touch Toolbox 3.0
soundcheck;669149 Wrote: > ...All these different types of jitter are non linear variations and > might cause this are that nasty sideeffect. And this is what Phil will > never understand. > > Even though it's evident that there is an issue, nobody really has > nailed it down yet: > > One reason IMO is that the industry might has a problem to fight this > problem. > I'd understand of course if they'd even keep their solution in the > pocket. As long as customers are buying there's no need to waste all > your munition. There'll be a tommorrow. ;) > > As soon as they find a solution, they'd have a great marketing message. > I can see the new white papers and marketing messages already in front > of me. "A new generation of DACs just arrived..." "...now we are > 99,99% immune against PC originated distortions" "...place your order > today..." ;) > > That's what we've e.g. seen on asynch USB - They still selling it at as > holy grail to fight PC originated distortions -- which is nonsense. They > just cover a part of the story. However. It works on most of the > customers. > > > > Another reason are people like Phil with a kind of pigeonholing > attitude, which is all but constructive. We as customers should push > the industry to do something about their issues. > ... > Instead of issuing personal attacks against me, perhaps you'd like to explain HOW network "packet jitter" can possibly impact audio quality? I'm sure the entire industry would like to know. Just completely disconnect the network from the SB (pull the ethernet plug from the SB) - does the audio sound quality change during the 20 seconds or so it takes to drain the hardware buffer? - no it doesn't. During this time, The Touch is doing NO network related processing, since it is receiving no TCP packets. The sound quality should actually IMPROVE according to your theories. Anyone can try this for themselves. This test removes the network AND the SBS server hardware/software from the equation. Of course, your computer and the low-quality power supplies of your network devices may still be injecting crap onto the mains and into the air... -- Phil Leigh You want to see the signal path BEFORE it gets onto a CD/vinyl...it ain't what you'd call minimal... Touch(wired/W7)+Teddy Pardo PSU - Audiolense 3.3/2.0+INGUZ DRC - MF M1 DAC - Linn 5103 - full Aktiv 5.1 system (6x LK140's, ESPEK/TRIKAN/KATAN/SEIZMIK 10.5), Pekin Tuner, Townsend Supertweeters,VdH Toslink,Kimber 8TC Speaker & Chord Signature Plus Interconnect cables Stax4070+SRM7/II phones Kitchen Boom, Outdoors: SB Radio, Harmony One remote for everything. Phil Leigh's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=85 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=91322 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] soundcheck's Touch Toolbox 3.0
soundcheck;669149 Wrote: > Good that you bring that up. Thanks for endorsing my reflexion. I thought I was from another planet here. Sent from my GT-S5830 using Tapatalk -- evdplancke evdplancke's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=43147 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=91322 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] soundcheck's Touch Toolbox 3.0
My new server HW -- Zotac Zbox ID41 ION2 -- arrived. My TT server Linux is prepared and working. I spent a couple of hours on it last night. Unbelievable: This new ION2 platform performs worse than my old ION1. I can't get HD 1080p material to play anymore. I'll send it back. I need to find an alternative which manages both - server duties and HD playback at a simlar footprint and cost. (any hints are welcome) -- soundcheck ::: ' Touch Toolbox 3.0 and more' (http://soundcheck-audio.blogspot.com) ::: by soundcheck soundcheck's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=34383 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=91322 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] soundcheck's Touch Toolbox 3.0
evdplancke;669118 Wrote: > I am afraid you are not the only one to know the truth about jitter :) > > Just to broaden a little bit your culture, jitter in data networking > protocols commonly means packet jitter, meaning that the delay between > packets is varying over time. > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jitter#Packet_jitter_in_computer_networks > This is namely an important network characteristics for good voice > quality in VoIP networks. > > Nothing to do at all with jitter on s/pdif protocol except that one may > have an incidence on the other (this is just an hypothesis, consistent > with the fact that variable processing load may have an incidence on > s/pdif jitter). > > For sure, your opinion about this subject may differ from mine but I > don't see where is the confusion over here ;) Good that you bring that up. There is a 'Wiki' (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jitter) that pretty much explains that the term jitter is not exclusive to audiophiles. All these different types of jitter are non linear variations and might cause this are that nasty sideeffect. Even though it's evident that there is an issue, nobody really has nailed it down yet. One reason IMO is that the industry got a huge problem to fight this problem. As soon as they find with a solution, they'll have a great marketing message. That's what we've seen on asynch USB - They still selling it at as holy grail to fight PC originated distortions, which is nonsense. They just cover a part of the story. -- soundcheck ::: ' Touch Toolbox 3.0 and more' (http://soundcheck-audio.blogspot.com) ::: by soundcheck soundcheck's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=34383 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=91322 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
