Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] RESULTS: Blind Test MP3 vs. Lossless out now...
cdmackay wrote: > Is this really consistent with that? This test seems to show a > preference for MP3, which suggests a lack of transparency, for whatever > odd reason. Or are you saying this test is the rare special case? > > and thanks to OP for the excellent test :) Exactly. It was frankly a bit odd but that's what the data seemed to point to... Not true transparency as I would understand the word. Rather an unexpected bias towards MP3. It's quite amazing reading in the comments how sure some respondents were that they were right, yet in reality they chose the MP3! I don't know about large scale tests of MP3 or where they have been published. Most I believe use the ABX methodology where one is at least able to listen to a sample of the lossless, a sample of MP3, and then presented with X to choose which of the 2 it sounds like... In this study, it was purely on preference, or at least one's own expectation of which sounds "better"; as such, I think it shows something quite interesting! Archimago's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=2207 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=98010 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] RESULTS: Blind Test MP3 vs. Lossless out now...
garym wrote: > > Edit: And your results are essentially consistent with many large scale > tests of the transparency of mp3 files relative to the original > lossless. High bitrate mp3 files test as completely transparent (no > ability to ABX differences) except for certain relatively rare special > cases. Is this really consistent with that? This test seems to show a preference for MP3, which suggests a lack of transparency, for whatever odd reason. Or are you saying this test is the rare special case? and thanks to OP for the excellent test :) cdmackay's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=24816 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=98010 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] MEASUREMENTS: Some Squeezebox numbers to consider...
jvanhambelgium wrote: > Did you perform some measurement between "regular" PSU of the Touch and > some ultra-lineair one ? > That would be interesting too. No. Don't have an (ultra)linear PS to test. Archimago's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=2207 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=97950 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] What outboard DAC do you use with Squeezebox?
Hmm... seems like no one is reading my posts. Nonetheless if still someone is interestet. Now i link to another side i thought i´ll never do but this one is interesting. Airport Express has native 16/44.1 digital out: http://www.computeraudiophile.com/content/466-measurements-first-and-second-generation-apple-airport-express/ I looked up that JRiver can push everything to an Airport Express device and do the resampling for you at that. Didn´t find out if this happens gapless. Wombat's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=4113 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=72018 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] MEASUREMENTS: Some Squeezebox numbers to consider...
Archimago wrote: > FWIW since folks are talking power cables now, I compared the Essence > One's output using the stock power cable vs. hospital/biomedical power > cable used in ICU equipment. Obviously the biomed cable is much better > built and more robust, with better shielding. > > No difference with the noise floor (around -113 dB). Remember, this is > all plugged into a relatively generic Belkin powerstrip with a noisy i7 > nearby... > > I can imagine a situation where a psychiatrist gets consulted to the ICU > with the reason for the request being: "Middle aged post-MI 'audiophile' > refuses repeat ECG unless done with Shunyata power cables." =-O Did you perform some measurement between "regular" PSU of the Touch and some ultra-lineair one ? That would be interesting too. jvanhambelgium's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=21453 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=97950 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] What outboard DAC do you use with Squeezebox?
Touch (coax) -> Onkyo 875 The Onkyo has some Burr-Brown PCM1796 (24bit/192kHz) DAC's onboard. I'm very happy with the quality of the sound and it sounds great on my Klipsch RF7-MKII's ! jvanhambelgium's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=21453 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=72018 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] What outboard DAC do you use with Squeezebox?
pandasharka wrote: > From someone who flamed me for being an apple fan boy? Lets call it > quits. I dont really have the inclination. Enjoy your set up, and I will > too. Agreed and I'm sorry about the fanboy remark. ralphpnj's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=10827 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=72018 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] What outboard DAC do you use with Squeezebox?
ralphpnj wrote: > It's not the heat, it's the density. Do me a favor and try reading what > I write and stop calling me names. > > I already told you that if the Airport Express works for you then great. > The fact of the matter is that the Airport Express is NOT equivalent to > the SB Touch in many, many ways. That said, in the way you are using the > Airport Express and the way you were using the Touch, i.e. for streaming > Spotify, the two units are basically equivalent. But you are taking that > equivalence and trying to apply it to all features of the devices and > this just isn't the case. I've done a little research trying to find out > exactly what is the maximum bit rate that the Airport Express will pass > along via the digital output but I could find this information. The best > answer I could come with is that the Airport Express limits the PCM > stream to 16bit/48kHz whereas the Touch handles up to 24bit/96kHZ and > the Touch handles FLAC files, which you STILL haven't answered whether > the Airport Express can handle FLAC files. > > So whenever you decide to be a little less dense please let me know and > maybe we can have a more civil conversation. >From someone who flamed me for being an apple fan boy? Lets call it quits. I dont really have the inclination. Enjoy your set up, and I will too. pandasharka's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=45806 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=72018 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] What outboard DAC do you use with Squeezebox?
pandasharka wrote: > I guess when the heat gets a lil hot, best out hey? > > Idiot. It's not the heat, it's the density. Do me a favor and try reading what I write and stop calling me names. I already told you that if the Airport Express works for you then great. The fact of the matter is that the Airport Express is NOT equivalent to the SB Touch in many, many ways. That said, in the way you are using the Airport Express and the way you were using the Touch, i.e. for streaming Spotify, the two units are basically equivalent. But you are taking that equivalence and trying to apply it to all features of the devices and this just isn't the case. I've done a little research trying to find out exactly what is the maximum bit rate that the Airport Express will pass along via the digital output but I could find this information. The best answer I could come with is that the Airport Express limits the PCM stream to 16bit/48kHz whereas the Touch handles up to 24bit/96kHZ and the Touch handles FLAC files, which you STILL haven't answered whether the Airport Express can handle FLAC files. So whenever you decide to be a little less dense please let me know and maybe we can have a more civil conversation. ralphpnj's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=10827 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=72018 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] What outboard DAC do you use with Squeezebox?
ralphpnj wrote: > I already told what you would lose so I'll just go back to my original > reply to you: I guess when the heat gets a lil hot, best out hey? Idiot. pandasharka's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=45806 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=72018 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] MEASUREMENTS: Some Squeezebox numbers to consider...
FWIW since folks are talking power cables now, I compared the Essence One's output using the stock power cable vs. hospital/biomedical power cable used in ICU equipment. Obviously the biomed cable is much better built and more robust, with better shielding. No difference with the noise floor (around -113 dB). Remember, this is all plugged into a relatively generic Belkin powerstrip with a noisy i7 nearby... Archimago's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=2207 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=97950 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] What outboard DAC do you use with Squeezebox?
ralphpnj wrote: > I know that for 99% of music it is very difficult to tell the difference > between a 320K mp3 and a flac but that does not mean there aren't > differences. If you are happy with 320k mp3 or whatever is the Apple > equivalent then great. I prefer flac or lossless files. However that is > not the reason I have chosen not to use Spotify or any other premium > music stream service, I don't use them because they do not offer much of > the music I listen to on a regular basis. > > Also I rip all my CDs to flac, which is a lossless format unlike 320k > mp3, which is a lossy format. I really do not want to have a discussion > on the merits of lossless over lossy since that is a topic which has > been beaten to death. As I stated above, if you're happy with the sound > of Spotify and like their selection then more power to you. > > Now please tell us about the Linn DS, what music you listen on it and > how you control it. Thanks Very defensive here isnt it Ralph? Hope you managed to upgrade from feeding your SBs into shite Marantz and headphone amps, from 2009? That wouldnt be very audiophile would it? Please let us know what you moved on to, it would help us to understand your audiophile standing, if that means anything at all, whatsoever. Have a nice day now. pandasharka's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=45806 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=72018 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] What outboard DAC do you use with Squeezebox?
pandasharka wrote: > The Linn Klimax DS set up I have with 4500+ CDs burnt to storage is > irrelevant, controlled with iPad and Kinsky. > > Also please forward a sensible argument as to why if you sold your SB > gear and streamed into an external DAC via airport express or similar, > you would lose anything either via spotify for radio (as you put it) or > CD rip? > > Looking forward to hearing if there is any logic or just bluster. I already told what you would lose so I'll just go back to my original reply to you: ralphpnj wrote: > And good riddance too! ralphpnj's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=10827 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=72018 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] What outboard DAC do you use with Squeezebox?
ralphpnj wrote: > I know that for 99% of music it is very difficult to tell the difference > between a 320K mp3 and a flac but that does not mean there aren't > differences. If you are happy with 320k mp3 or whatever is the Apple > equivalent then great. I prefer flac or lossless files. However that is > not the reason I have chosen not to use Spotify or any other premium > music stream service, I don't use them because they do not offer much of > the music I listen to on a regular basis. > > Also I rip all my CDs to flac, which is a lossless format unlike 320k > mp3, which is a lossy format. I really do not want to have a discussion > on the merits of lossless over lossy since that is a topic which has > been beaten to death. As I stated above, if you're happy with the sound > of Spotify and like their selection then more power to you. > > Now please tell us about the Linn DS, what music you listen on it and > how you control it. Thanks The Linn Klimax DS set up I have with 4500+ CDs burnt to storage is irrelevant, controlled with iPad and Kinsky. Also please forward a sensible argument as to why if you sold your SB gear and streamed into an external DAC via airport express or similar, you would lose anything either via spotify for radio (as you put it) or CD rip? Looking forward to hearing if there is any logic or just bluster. pandasharka's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=45806 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=72018 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] RESULTS: Blind Test MP3 vs. Lossless out now...
azinck3 wrote: > Very interesting results. Thank you for the time and care you spent > doing this. > > I am not a researcher, just an amateur like yourself :), but I have a > few methodological concerns: > > 1) You bundled the files into two complete bundles (all mp3s were in > group A, all lossless in B). In doing so it becomes much more difficult > to draw any conclusions about the detectability/preference of mp3 > encoding as it pertains to any one pair of files. It also allows people > to focus intently only on the files they care to listen to, or those > which they came across first, and then to make conclusions about the > whole group. Additionally, it prevents you from changing the order of > the files (selection of group A by most respondents may have been > primacy effect, to some degree). Asking about confidence on a per-file > basis as you did would seem to mitigate some of these concerns but I > don't think it fully addresses the potential problems. > > 2) There's no control group. This could have helped identify any > possible the primacy effect, too (if you'd had each individual file > pairing done independently it would have been possible to have two > identical files as one of the pairs). > > 3) Your main question "which set sounded inferior" had 3 answers: A, B, > or "no audible difference". This, paired with the question about > confidence does a decent job of answering the question "which sounds > better" but I wonder if it does a good enough job of answering the > question "is mp3 distinguishable from lossless". There could be a > subset of people who had a hard time developing an opinion on which one > sounded inferior, but an easy time distinguishing between the files. > These people would not have wanted to answer "no audible difference" so > may have taken a guess for the question "which set sounded inferior", > but for "how difficult was it to come to your conclusion" they might > have said "easy" (since it was easy for them to distinguish the files). > Maybe I'm splitting hairs here; these are just some thoughts that came > to mind while reading the results. > > 4) I also wonder about the decision to use such an unorthodox mp3 > encoding technique. I understand your rationale for doing so, but in > the end it seems that your conclusion necessarily becomes "people tend > to prefer this unusual method of audio processing over the original > files". If you'd used a more typical encoding method then your > conclusions could be more useful by applying more broadly to mp3s in the > "real" world. > > > These all sound like harsh criticisms. They're not. Your survey is, to > me, exactly the kind of stuff audio publications should be doing. You > clearly put a lot of though into this; it was a great read! Thanks azinck, I agree with your points and appreciate you putting them down. In preparation for the test, I wanted to make sure that it was first and foremost "doable" in the sense of being simple enough to perform and not onerous for those wanting to partake. I was already a bit concerned about the 75MB file size for example. 1. Out of simplicity I bundled the songs together. I agree that people would likely only pick the ones they can bear to listen to! This was why 3 songs were provided spanning a few genres... I was also worried about confusion and error if I were to mix-and-match especially "out in the wild" where the respondents can become confused if they had to respond with something like "I liked Church_A, Time_B, KeineZeit_A". 2. Don't know how I could have done this unless I provided at least 2 ZIP files; 1 being just MP3 A&B or lossless A&B to guage the serial position effect (primacy effect vs. recency effect). Again, we'd be looking at more complexity and the survey would have to allow people to identify which test they downloaded... 3. & 4. Good points and I think the most important criticisms of the methodology. Interestingly, nobody said the test was "easy" but voted for "no difference" (good that didn't happen! :-). Yes the unorthodox MP3 encoding was what bothered me the most but I considered it a "necessary evil"! However, if it's that easy to create a preference for MP3, that's meaningful as well! Archimago's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=2207 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=98010 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] MEASUREMENTS: Some Squeezebox numbers to consider...
SoftwireEngineer wrote: > BTW, Shunyata in sanskrit language means, nothingness. They are trying > to shoot for it in their cable designs. I'm sorry to have to correct you on this but the nothingness has nothing to do with their cable designs and everything to do with the contents of your wallet, has in Shunyata is trying to achieve the nothingness state for your wallet. And based on their prices I would say that they are well on their to achieving their objective :) ralphpnj's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=10827 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=97950 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] MEASUREMENTS: Some Squeezebox numbers to consider...
Gentlemen, I know you like to have a laugh at the audiophile madness, just like I am aghast at the obscene pricing and unnecessary cosmetic build materials. In the case, of speaker cables and power cables, if you measure the electrical properties of stock vs say, Shunyata, there will surely be some difference. But does it translate to difference in the sound of your system ? Probably not that much. To be fair, some audiophile reviewers, they do say it does not benefit some very high end equipment. So for power cables, it depends on the power supply in your equipment. In the case of speaker cables, it all depends on the output impedence of your amplifier and the impedence characteristics of your speaker. All the speaker cable designers do, is keep tweaking the inductance/capacitance balance. Many try to reduce the capacitance, while keeping the inductance low (by winding which actually will increase capacitance). Note, resistor, capacitor or inductor that we buy/use in our circuits are not necessarily purely resistance, capacitance or inductance. They have other properties as well, but very low. It is quite possible some people can hear the differences between different resistors, capacitors or inductors of the same value but from different brand/quality. This is the same story with power or speaker cables, they are not purely resistive. BTW, Shunyata in sanskrit language means, nothingness. They are trying to shoot for it in their cable designs. SoftwireEngineer's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=7000 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=97950 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] RESULTS: Blind Test MP3 vs. Lossless out now...
Very interesting results. Thank you for the time and care you spent doing this. I am not a researcher, just an amateur like yourself :), but I have a few methodological concerns: 1) You bundled the files into two complete bundles (all mp3s were in group A, all lossless in B). In doing so it becomes much more difficult to draw any conclusions about the detectability/preference of mp3 encoding as it pertains to any one pair of files. It also allows people to focus intently only on the files they care to listen to, or those which they came across first, and then to make conclusions about the whole group. Additionally, it prevents you from changing the order of the files (selection of group A by most respondents may have been primacy effect, to some degree). Asking about confidence on a per-file basis as you did would seem to mitigate some of these concerns but I don't think it fully addresses the potential problems. 2) There's no control group. This could have helped identify any possible the primacy effect, too (if you'd had each individual file pairing done independently it would have been possible to have two identical files as one of the pairs). 3) Your main question "which set sounded inferior" had 3 answers: A, B, or "no audible difference". This, paired with the question about confidence does a decent job of answering the question "which sounds better" but I wonder if it does a good enough job of answering the question "is mp3 distinguishable from lossless". There could be a subset of people who had a hard time developing an opinion on which one sounded inferior, but an easy time distinguishing between the files. These people would not have wanted to answer "no audible difference" so may have taken a guess for the question "which set sounded inferior", but for "how difficult was it to come to your conclusion" they might have said "easy" (since it was easy for them to distinguish the files). Maybe I'm splitting hairs here; these are just some thoughts that came to mind while reading the results. 4) I also wonder about the decision to use such an unorthodox mp3 encoding technique. I understand your rationale for doing so, but in the end it seems that your conclusion necessarily becomes "people tend to prefer this unusual method of audio processing over the original files". If you'd used a more typical encoding method then your conclusions could be more useful by applying more broadly to mp3s in the "real" world. These all sound like harsh criticisms. They're not. Your survey is, to me, exactly the kind of stuff audio publications should be doing. You clearly put a lot of though into this; it was a great read! azinck3's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=3967 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=98010 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] What outboard DAC do you use with Squeezebox?
pandasharka wrote: > OK, so if you accept there is no difference streaming Spotify at 320k or > whatever their premium service streams at in extreme, > can you elaborate on the difference between streaming any other media > please? Eg. Ripped CD's. > > In the space of one post, we've come back from your reply that you can > only stream to Airport Express via iTunes. Incorrect. > > I wonder what else is? > > I'm only talking about the Touch here. The Linn stuff, I know the > answer. > > Oh, by the way, where did you read that Spotify wasnt a real world > audiophile app? Have you tried it? Or just read about it? I know that for 99% of music it is very difficult to tell the difference between a 320K mp3 and a flac but that does not mean there aren't differences. If you are happy with 320k mp3 or whatever is the Apple equivalent then great. I prefer flac or lossless files. However that is not the reason I have chosen not to use Spotify or any other premium music stream service, I don't use them because they do not offer much of the music I listen to on a regular basis. Also I rip all my CDs to flac, which is a lossless format unlike 320k mp3, which is a lossy format. I really do not want to have a discussion on the merits of lossless over lossy since that is a topic which has been beaten to death. As I stated above, if you're happy with the sound of Spotify and like their selection then more power to you. Now please tell us about the Linn DS, what music you listen on it and how you control it. Thanks ralphpnj's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=10827 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=72018 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] What outboard DAC do you use with Squeezebox?
ralphpnj wrote: > Now I understand, or think I understand, so please correct me if I'm > mistaken. It appears that you are only using the Airport Express to > stream content from Spotify, in other words, to stream Internet "radio", > which is basically what Spotify is. > > Streaming Spotify is not really an "audiophile" application and I would > say that you are correct in that there is no advantage to using the > Touch versus the Airport Express when one is only listening to Spotifyl. OK, so if you accept there is no difference streaming Spotify at 320k or whatever their premium service streams at in extreme, can you elaborate on the difference between streaming any other media please? Eg. Ripped CD's. In the space of one post, we've come back from your reply that you can only stream to Airport Express via iTunes. Incorrect. I wonder what else is? I'm only talking about the Touch here. The Linn stuff, I know the answer. Oh, by the way, where did you read that Spotify wasnt a real world audiophile app? Have you tried it? Or just read about it? pandasharka's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=45806 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=72018 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] What outboard DAC do you use with Squeezebox?
The second generation Airport is a nice device. It has a native and clean 16/44.1 digital output that should be the majority of files most users own. So it may be a worthwhile digital transport, why not? The HiRes files you have you can resample yourself to 16/44.1 for daily use and don´t let Airport do it. At least that is how i would use it. But having to use iTunes!? No and never. Aren´t there any alternative frontends already that push flac to an Airplay device like JRiver? Wombat's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=4113 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=72018 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] RESULTS: Blind Test MP3 vs. Lossless out now...
garym wrote: > Very interesting. You'll now need to change your identity and go into > the witness protection program. The Audiophiles will hunt you > downparticularly with this line: > > "... it seems like the participants with more expensive equipment > preferred the lossy tracks." > > Seriously though, nice work (and also nice work on the measurements in > the other thread). I was frankly shocked when I ran the data looking at these subsets! When I first did the <$500 group, I thought it looked rather random with just a bias towards Set A and figured the high-price-tag group would probably be similar... Apparently not! The preference was even stronger! Archimago's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=2207 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=98010 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] What outboard DAC do you use with Squeezebox?
pandasharka wrote: > Very sorry to disappoint you, no iTunes this end, Spotify only. Now tell > me about the audiophile advantage of SB Touch in that scenario. > > I'm all ears, and waiting with baited breath.. pandasharka wrote: > Forget iTunes, I've never used it and never will. My external DAC > supports FLAC etc. > > Now please, give me your best arguments for why I should not have sold > the SB Touch at a nice profit, replaced it with an airport express to > stream into my external DAC. (Which made my standard SB Touch sound > average without it)? Mnyb wrote: > Is it no so that airport/iTunes resample,everything to 16/48 Now I understand, or think I understand, so please correct me if I'm mistaken. It appears that you are only using the Airport Express to stream content from Spotify, in other words, to stream Internet "radio", which is basically what Spotify is. Streaming Spotify is not really an "audiophile" application and I would say that you are correct in that there is no advantage to using the Touch versus the Airport Express when one is only listening to Spotify. However all my other reasons would still apply if one were going to use the Airport Express to stream one's own digital audio files. By the way, I'm not aware of any DACs that support FLAC - what they is PCM, which is what the Airport Express' or the Touch's digital output provides. Now this takes care of the garden equipment so what do you use to control the Linn DS and are you also only using the Linn DS to liten to Spotify because that would really be a bit of overkill. ralphpnj's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=10827 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=72018 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] RESULTS: Blind Test MP3 vs. Lossless out now...
Archimago wrote: > I think the results will be surprising for most. I was certainly > surprised as I checked the survey day to day and started to see the bias > / significance building strongly a couple weeks into the test! > > Bottom line - most respondents thought the lossless Set sounded > "inferior"! > > archimago.blogspot.com Very interesting. You'll now need to change your identity and go into the witness protection program. The Audiophiles will hunt you downparticularly with this line: "... it seems like the participants with more expensive equipment preferred the lossy tracks." Seriously though, nice work (and also nice work on the measurements in the other thread). garym's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=17325 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=98010 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] What outboard DAC do you use with Squeezebox?
Forget iTunes, I've never used it and never will. My external DAC supports FLAC etc. Now please, give me your best arguments for why I should not have sold the SB Touch at a nice profit, replaced it with an airport express to stream into my external DAC. (Which made my standard SB Touch sound average without it)? pandasharka's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=45806 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=72018 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
[SlimDevices: Audiophiles] RESULTS: Blind Test MP3 vs. Lossless out now...
I think the results will be surprising for most. I was certainly surprised as I checked the survey day to day and started to see the bias / significance building strongly a couple weeks into the test! Bottom line - most respondents thought the lossless Set sounded "inferior"! archimago.blogspot.com Archimago's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=2207 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=98010 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] What outboard DAC do you use with Squeezebox?
Is it no so that airport/iTunes resample,everything to 16/48 Mnyb's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=4143 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=72018 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] What outboard DAC do you use with Squeezebox?
ralphpnj wrote: > Three really, really BIG reasons: > > 1) In order to stream digital audio to the Airport Express one has to > use iTunes which means no FLAC support. > > 2) iTunes is a horrible music library manager > > 3) No support for 24bit files. > > Sorry to disappoint you. Very sorry to disappoint you, no iTunes this end, Spotify only. Now tell me about the audiophile advantage of SB Touch in that scenario. I'm all ears, and waiting with baited breath.. pandasharka's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=45806 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=72018 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] What outboard DAC do you use with Squeezebox?
pandasharka wrote: > Just for a laugh, I wonder whether you can articulate the 'audiophile' > advantage of standard SB Touch, over the Airport Express into external > DAC please? Three really, really BIG reasons: 1) In order to stream digital audio to the Airport Express one has to use iTunes which means no FLAC support. 2) iTunes is a horrible music library manager 3) No support for 24bit files. Sorry to disappoint you. ralphpnj's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=10827 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=72018 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] What outboard DAC do you use with Squeezebox?
ralphpnj wrote: > Very true but the reason for my dismissal of pandasharka is that it > appears that he/she is nothing more than an apple fanboy. Nice try Ralph. You missed the bit about the Linn DS set up. Just for a laugh, I wonder whether you can articulate the 'audiophile' advantage of standard SB Touch, over the Airport Express into external DAC please? On second thoughts don't bother, it was only used in the garden, hardly the best place for 'audiofool' listening. I was responding to the original post with a valid answer, having had the use of the Touch for a couple of years and more recently with one of the best value budget DACs on the market. Sorry to disappoint you about the apple fanboy bit. Idiot. pandasharka's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=45806 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=72018 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] What outboard DAC do you use with Squeezebox?
ralphpnj wrote: > The iPod Classic I use when traveling or taking the train. Great little > device but not audiophile quality without installing RockBox which I > have not done. Audiophille quality is hardly that important when listening to an iPod on the train. But there is something far more useful about installing Rockbox - it has a dynamic range compressor which helps enormously when trying to listen on trains/planes and in cars. I urge you to try it out. cliveb's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=348 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=72018 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] MEASUREMENTS: Some Squeezebox numbers to consider...
Mnyb wrote: > If I charge my phone via the Shunyata research would my mp3's sound > better? Of course. The electric field compensation circuit ensures the bits settle in an unbiased state inside your phone - very important considering all the eddy currents within the phone. I wonder if there is a subtle message in the fact that they name their products after snakes... :) Julf's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=42050 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=97950 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] MEASUREMENTS: Some Squeezebox numbers to consider...
Mnyb wrote: > Any Dylan in particular ( I find stones overrated but a good live show ) > I sometime listen to Dylan but not often . > > If I charge my phone via the Shunyata research would my mp3's sound > better ? I don't find the background black I'm rather surrounded by > busses and bicycles and people . > ( this idea is not more crazy than thinking filling a squeezebox buffer > with a server with a tweaked OS or some such sounds better than data > otherwise gathered , I get " better " electrons in my iPhone ). The "Bob Dylan" album was not part of the SACD remasters but was remastered in 16/44.1 in 2005. This version beats anything previously released IMHO. I like all of the hybrid SACD remasters. There is an excellent discussion here: http://bobdylanisis.com/contents/en-uk/d94.html I'm a big fan of the early Stones material and was very glad ABKCO decided to finally do something about the lousy original recordings when they remastered the albums. Considering the sources available, they did a great job I think. The Shunyata needs to be connected to something actively playing music. You will be unable to discern a difference if used merely to recharge your iPhone. It will make mp3's sound like 24/192, with increased air around the instruments and a major improvement in PRaT. Jeff52's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=103 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=97950 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] What outboard DAC do you use with Squeezebox?
Julf wrote: > I don't have much experience *as* an audiophile in the way that you > seem to be using the word. > > I have merely enjoyed good music reproduction using electronic and > electro-mechanical systems I've come to dislike the word "audiophile" and do not use it in reference to myself. There are way too many people who invoke their private definition when they use it. Conversation becomes difficult when an individual attaches his personal baggage to a word. mlsstl's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=9598 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=72018 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] MEASUREMENTS: Some Squeezebox numbers to consider...
Jeff52 wrote: > Check out the CD layers of the remastered Rolling Stones and Bob Dylan > hybrid SACDs, in particular, Let It Bleed by the Stones. The CD layers > benefit from the DSD remastering of the SACD layer and really sound > good. > > > > > I quite agree about Kind Of Blue. Some other good ones: Getz/Gilberto > SACD (2011 Analogue Productions remaster), Getz & Byrd Jazz Samba (1994 > DCC remaster). Of course they would sound better with a Shunyata > Research ZTRON Anaconda power cable, but unfortunately I'm stuck with > the stock power cord for my Bryston amp. Any Dylan in particular ( I find stones overrated but a good live show ) I sometime listen to Dylan but not often . If I charge my phone via the Shunyata research would my mp3's sound better ? I don't find the background black I'm rather surrounded by busses and bicycles and people . ( this idea is not more crazy than thinking filling a squeezebox buffer with a server with a tweaked OS or some such sounds better than data otherwise gathered , I get " better " electrons in my iPhone ). Mnyb's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=4143 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=97950 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] MEASUREMENTS: Some Squeezebox numbers to consider...
Mnyb wrote: > Like a coincidence , if DVDA or SACD has a cd quality layer ,this layer > always sounds worse than the hirez ;) Check out the CD layers of the remastered Rolling Stones and Bob Dylan hybrid SACDs, in particular, Let It Bleed by the Stones. The CD layers benefit from the DSD remastering of the SACD layer and really sound good. ralphpnj wrote: > For anything recorded since the beginning of the stereo era (about the > mid 1950s) it's not the age of the recording but rather the quality of > the recording that matters. There are plenty of recordings from the > 1950s and 1960s which sound as good as anything recorded today. For > example Miles Davis' "kind of Blue" is very well recorded and compares > favorably with most "modern" recordings. I quite agree about Kind Of Blue. Some other good ones: Getz/Gilberto SACD (2011 Analogue Productions remaster), Getz & Byrd Jazz Samba (1994 DCC remaster). Of course they would sound better with a Shunyata Research ZTRON Anaconda power cable, but unfortunately I'm stuck with the stock power cord for my Bryston amp. Jeff52's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=103 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=97950 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] What outboard DAC do you use with Squeezebox?
jh901 wrote: > Frankly, you have little experience as an audiophile I guess you are right. I have a fair bit of experience with various cults and secret societies, but I don't seem to belong to the one you belong to. Instead I have merely enjoyed good music reproduction using electronic and electro-mechanical systems for, well, probably something like 40 years, and worked with both professional audio and digital sound processing beside my main career. So yes, I guess I have little experience as an audiophile. I guess my life is sad and incomplete. Oh well... Julf's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=42050 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=72018 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] What is the best top end player now ?
chill wrote: > Yes, it seems obvious now in light of your explanation, and indeed I > poked around on the miniDSP site and found a confirmation in a forum > thread that the volume control is done in the digital domain. This > means of course that the potentiometer doesn't have to be 'audiophile' > grade - it's not in the audio chain. My own pre-amp is one of these > resistor ladder designs (http://www.eijndhoven.net/jos/relaixed2/) which > I built as a first foray into circuit board assembly. Yes an audiophile grade pot can easilly cost more than all silicon used in the mini dsp (which tells you why modern HT amps works as they do ) If it's further augmented with dither the quantisation noise will be randomised , and you would just descend into the noise floor as per Julfs earlier explanation . And that would happen at extemely low levels if power amp gain is kept in a sane domain Mnyb's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=4143 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=96407 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] What is the best top end player now ?
Mnyb wrote: > With correct system gain digital volume would be the best solution > ,actually the only workable one if you want *exact* volume tracking > between all channels , you ever had a preamp where the volume is > slightly higher in one channel on low volume ? > You don't want the balance between drivers to shift with volume . > There is possible some ( expensive ) step ladder solution too possibly > with laser trimmed resistors or something . > But it can be done with zero investment in hardware just more software > . > > My own meridian hometheater would serve as a good example in total > including the subwoofer channel it would be 12 volume controls ! And > they should all track perfectly at all volumes :) > > A very good project indeed , I wish I had time to indulge in such things > . Yes, it seems obvious now in light of your explanation, and indeed I poked around on the miniDSP site and found a confirmation in a forum thread that the volume control is done in the digital domain. This means of course that the potentiometer doesn't have to be 'audiophile' grade - it's not in the audio chain. My own pre-amp is one of these resistor ladder designs (http://www.eijndhoven.net/jos/relaixed2/) which I built as a first foray into circuit board assembly. chill's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=10839 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=96407 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] MEASUREMENTS: Some Squeezebox numbers to consider...
Mnyb wrote: > Great ! It also seams like flac has a bit higher distortion a whooping > 0.0002 % more :) atrocious . > > So the FLAC/WAV thing is also an Nigerian letter to the audiophiles . > The most interesting thing is that the ones claiming that they hear this > difference often uses external DAC's too ? Where the difference would be > non existing . :-) Important to keep in mind that these are measurements with test tones which of course places a different kind of load on the electronics. Real music with all its intricacies may of course lead to a different kind of response. Archimago's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=2207 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=97950 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
