Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Once again - does wav sound different than flac?
netchord wrote: > you misstate what I, and likely most other subjectivists believe: "If I > hear it, I hear it." i can then decide whether to spend the time/money > to address what i've heard. in the specific instance mentioned here, > there's no time difference, and the money (in storage) is negligible. And that is of course fine in a subjectivist, "everybody is right" world, and if we would be discussing the taste of chocolate or opinions about art, it would be a totally valid form of discourse. When discussing the audibility of different file formats (or cables, for that matter), your "If I hear it, I hear it" would have to be restated "If I think I hear it, I believe I hear it" to be technically valid. Reproduction of audio is an area of engineering (a form of applied science), so the rules of science apply. It's not just a bunch of subjective opinions. Let's say you take a walk along the shores of Loch Ness, and see a huge aquatic animal out in the lake. Based on the subjectivist position of "if I see it, I see it" you would accept that Nessie exists, and it might cause you to spend time and money as a result. A more scientific approach would be to admit that it is easy to be influenced about all the stories about monsters in Loch Ness, and that a lot of floating objects might look like an animal in the dusk, so independent and objective verification might be a good idea. "To try to judge the real from the false will always be hard. In this fast-growing art of 'high fidelity' the quackery will bear a solid gilt edge that will fool many people" - Paul W Klipsch, 1953 Julf's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=42050 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=104227 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Technical Question: Is the amount of jitter a function of the type of connection?
What I mean is does the amount of jitter vary for different types of connection? \"YES\" So is there more or less jitter present in a USB connection than in a coax connection? \"IT DEPENDS ON THE TYPE OF USB AND CAN BE IMPLEMENTATION DEPENDENT YOU CAN NOT SAY UNLESS YOU HAVE TWO MEASURED EXAMPLES TO COMPARE . HOWEVER ASYNCHRONOUS USB 2 MAKES IT SOURCE INDEPENDENT AND IT'S JUST WHAT THE DAC DOES THAT'S MATTER \" More or less jitter present in a coax connection than in an Ethernet connection? \"N/A ETHERNET IS NOT THAT KIND OF INTERFACE . THE COAX SPDIFF INTERFACE HAS THIS . ETHERNET IS ALWAYS ASYCHROUNUAS AND BUFFERED FOR OUR PURPOSES\" More or less jitter present in an Ethernet connection than in file played from a memory buffer? \"N/A YOU CAN NOT PLAY DIRECTLY FROM ETHERNET , THERE IS ALWAYS AN OS AND A MEMORY INVOLVED . IT'S LIKE ASKING IF A DOWNLOADED FILE GETS MORE JITTER OVER TIME ;) SO THESE TWO ARE THE SAME YOU ARE PLAYING FROM A MEMORY BUFFER WITH ETHERNET , PULL THE WIRE FROM YOUR SQUEEZEBOX AND IT WILL PLAY FOR ALMOST 30 SECONDS\" More or less jitter present in a file played from a standard hard drive or a file played from an SSD? \"N/A THAT'S NOT HOW THINGS WORK, NOT IN A DIRECT WAY THAT REALLY MATTERS\" More or less jitter present in a file from an SSD or a file played from RAM? \"N/A THAT'S NOT HOW THINGS WORK, NOT IN A DIRECT WAY THAT REALLY MATTERS\" And finally: Is some amount of jitter always present regardless of connection type? A TENTATIVE YES , BUT THE KEY IS A CONNECTION THAT'S TIMING DEPENDENT , THIS IS USUALLY BETWEEN DIFFERENT MACHINES AND WITH PRIMITIVE INTERFACES LIKE SPDIFF WHERE A TIME BASE IS DERIVED FROM THE SIGNAL ITSELF . THE DAC SYNC ITS PLAYBACK ONTO THE 44.1 IT CAN DERIVE FROM THE SPDIFF CARRIER Please note: I am not trolling, I am trying to get a better understanding of jitter and what causes jitter in the first place. \"ITS NOISE IN THE TIMING OF A SIGNAL BUT THE CONTEXT IS IN AN INTERFACE WHERE IT'S MATTERS . LIKE IN DA CONVERSION WHERE THE DAC TURNS A 16 BIT WORD INTO A VOLTAGE EVERY 1/44.1 SECOND THE TIMING OF THIS MUST BE PRECISE, NOTE MY EXAMPLE IS SIMPLIFIED DAC ARE MORE INVOLVED THESE DAYS\" -"But this is more or less a solved problem it's not present in audible quantities in modern DAC's and the question does not really apply to what's going on inside a computer . It's a popular marketing term as it can always be improved in minute increments ;) "- Main hifi: Touch + CIA PS +MeridianG68J MeridianHD621 MeridianG98DH 2 x MeridianDSP5200 MeridianDSP5200HC 2 xMeridianDSP3100 +Rel Stadium 3 sub. Bedroom/Office: Boom Kitchen: Touch + powered Fostex PM0.4 Misc use: Radio (with battery) iPad1 with iPengHD & SqueezePad (spares Touch, SB3, reciever ,controller ) server HP proliant micro server N36L with ClearOS Linux http://people.xiph.org/~xiphmont/demo/neil-young.html Mnyb's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=4143 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=104340 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
[SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Technical Question: Is the amount of jitter a function of the type of connection?
As I asked in the thread title: Is the amount of jitter a function of the type of connection? What I mean is does the amount of jitter vary for different types of connection? So is there more or less jitter present in a USB connection than in a coax connection? More or less jitter present in a coax connection than in an Ethernet connection? More or less jitter present in an Ethernet connection than in file played from a memory buffer? More or less jitter present in a file played from a standard hard drive or a file played from an SSD? More or less jitter present in a file from an SSD or a file played from RAM? And finally: Is some amount of jitter always present regardless of connection type? Please note: I am not trolling, I am trying to get a better understanding of jitter and what causes jitter in the first place. Living Rm: Transporter-SimAudio pre/power amps-Vandersteen 3A Sign. & sub Home Theater: Touch-Marantz HTR-Energy Veritas 2.1 & Linn sub Computer Rm: Touch-Headroom Desktop w/DAC-Aragon amp-Energy Veritas 2.1 & Energy sub Bedroom: Touch-HR Desktop w/DAC-Audio Refinement amp-Energy Veritas 2.0 Guest Rm: Duet-Sony soundbar Garage: SB3-JVC compact system Controls: iPeng; SB Controller; Moose & Muso Server: SBS on dedicated windows 7 computer w/2 Drobos 'Last.fm' (http://www.last.fm/user/jazzfann/) ralphpnj's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=10827 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=104340 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Once again - does wav sound different than flac?
Julf wrote: > Good point. It also leads me to ask if the subjectivist view of "if I > hear it, it must be The Truth" is either the ultimate in solipsism, or > just extremely arrogant. you misstate what I, and likely most other subjectivists believe: "If I hear it, I hear it." i can then decide whether to spend the time/money to address what i've heard. in the specific instance mentioned here, there's no time difference, and the money (in storage) is negligible. -- 4 TB Drobo-->FW 800-->mac mini-->Ethernet Transporter--> Wireworld Eclipse 6 coax-->Meridian G61 G61--> Nordost Red Dawn-->Primare 30.3 Primare-->Ocos--Vienna Acoustics Beethoven/Maestro netchord's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=21002 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=104227 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Once again - does wav sound different than flac?
.moving right along! In any case, I love my lossless collection which has close to 1000 hires albums (yes, a fortune). And played through standard STP and UTP cabling here to my streamer and DAC. But mainly - I enjoy my music. End. Marantz NA-11S1 PCM/DSD streamer with Squeezebox Touch front-end - Marantz UD9004 / AV8801 / MM8003 & CI Audio D-200 MkII (front only) - Nubert NuVero & R.E.L. R-528SE - Siltech & ProLine custom made Silver & Gold, XLR where possible Audiotic's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=5912 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=104227 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Once again - does wav sound different than flac?
marcoc1712 wrote: > Sure if I heard it it's real for me using my system I guess that then comes down to your definition of "real". It still assumes your senses are infallible. You are the only one using absolute terms here, pretending to know "The Thruth". That is actually pretty much opposite to what I am actually saying. All I am asking is "how do you know what you think you know". > Please let's start with the ABX, I'm here waiting for you... What exactly is it that you are waiting for? "To try to judge the real from the false will always be hard. In this fast-growing art of 'high fidelity' the quackery will bear a solid gilt edge that will fool many people" - Paul W Klipsch, 1953 Julf's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=42050 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=104227 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Once again - does wav sound different than flac?
Julf wrote: > I suspect those who live in the wonderful make-believe world of unicorns > and fairies enjoy their music more than I do, but then again, there is > more to life than just audio... Dunno, I would say that a near pathological focus on finding the imaginary flaws that need imaginary remedies doesn't strike me as a way of enjoying the actual music. alfista's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=32396 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=104227 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Once again - does wav sound different than flac?
Julf wrote: > Good point. It also leads me to ask if the subjectivist view of "if I > hear it, it must be The Truth" is either the ultimate in solipsism, or > just extremely arrogant. Don't know, not interested about, never said this and sure is not my mind. Sure if I heard it it's real for me using my system, if soemone else said he could hear it in other systems I suppose it could be real in a more generic way. You are the only one using absolute terms here, pretending to know "The Thruth", mocking others and putting words in others mouth. If I'm arrogant, how we should call you? Please let's start with the ABX, I'm here waiting for you... Shall we start the ABX? SB+, Klimo Merlino + Kent Gold, Monitor Audio Studio 20 Gold SE+, Klimo reference and DIS Interconnect. marcoc1712's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=34842 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=104227 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Once again - does wav sound different than flac?
marcoc1712 wrote: > Sure, doing what you are doing here, as an example. Good point. It also leads me to ask if the subjectivists view of "if I hear it, it must be The Truth" is either the ultimate in solipsism, or just extremely arrogant. "To try to judge the real from the false will always be hard. In this fast-growing art of 'high fidelity' the quackery will bear a solid gilt edge that will fool many people" - Paul W Klipsch, 1953 Julf's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=42050 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=104227 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Once again - does wav sound different than flac?
Julf wrote: > I suspect those who live in the wonderful make-believe world of unicorns > and fairies enjoy their music more than I do, but then again, there is > more to life than just audio... Sure, doing what you are doing here, as an example. SB+, Klimo Merlino + Kent Gold, Monitor Audio Studio 20 Gold SE+, Klimo reference and DIS Interconnect. marcoc1712's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=34842 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=104227 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Once again - does wav sound different than flac?
Julf wrote: > I suspect those who live in the wonderful make-believe world of unicorns > and fairies enjoy their music more than I do, but then again, there is > more to life than just audio... but not more than music. -- 4 TB Drobo-->FW 800-->mac mini-->Ethernet Transporter--> Wireworld Eclipse 6 coax-->Meridian G61 G61--> Nordost Red Dawn-->Primare 30.3 Primare-->Ocos--Vienna Acoustics Beethoven/Maestro netchord's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=21002 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=104227 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Once again - does wav sound different than flac?
netchord wrote: > do you enjoy the music more, constantly checking your audio privilege? I suspect those who live in the wonderful make-believe world of unicorns and fairies enjoy their music more than I do, but then again, there is more to life than just audio... "To try to judge the real from the false will always be hard. In this fast-growing art of 'high fidelity' the quackery will bear a solid gilt edge that will fool many people" - Paul W Klipsch, 1953 Julf's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=42050 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=104227 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Once again - does wav sound different than flac?
Mnyb wrote: > He he is it not another trend by the golden eared to not have sufficient > buffers and try make the PC behave as much as possible as a bad old CD > player and stream continiusly with very small buffers ? Interesting observation Mnyb. I really wonder who started this idea about small buffers or even shutting off all buffers and essentially polling the CPU to feed data. I commented on this weirdness with the 'JPLAY software back in 2013' (http://archimago.blogspot.ca/2013/06/measurements-part-ii-bit-perfect.html) as this was the recommendation of "practitioners" of the software back then... You'd think that adding to CPU load (from something like <3% with decent buffering to >15% with tiny buffers when I tested) would "logically" increase "noise" and "jitter" given how concerned some folks seem to be about all this stuff in computer audio. I'm guessing they're still of that mindset these days. Of course, none of this made any audible difference to me nor measurable difference even with null testing. To add insult to injury, hilarious that JPLAY still had the 'same bug in 2015' (http://archimago.blogspot.ca/2015/08/measurements-audiophile-sound-and.html) as reported in 2013 with 24/48 Kernel Streaming! Good deal at a mere 99Euros when foobar can be had for free :-). Archimago's Musings: (archimago.blogspot.com) A 'more objective' audiophile blog. Archimago's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=2207 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=104227 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
