Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Once again - does wav sound different than flac?
marcoc1712 wrote: > And how, de gratia, could one be informed by the "accepted fact" state > of the art, are we supposed to join a mailing list? Ore listening to > Julf is enough? At this point it seems clear that you either don't want to understand or simply haven't read what I have been writing. > Please. next time You would like to spend some time, please don't use my > name in opening a Thread here, but Your. Please, next time, when people are asking you to open a new thread, could you please do it yourself so others don't have to do it on your behalf? "To try to judge the real from the false will always be hard. In this fast-growing art of 'high fidelity' the quackery will bear a solid gilt edge that will fool many people" - Paul W Klipsch, 1953 Julf's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=42050 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=104227 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Once again - does wav sound different than flac?
marcoc1712 wrote: > Again, Who decide when evidence are enougth do become "accepted fact"? > Oh, yes...Always You. No, not me at all, except as a tiny part of the scientific and engineering community. The people who design the gear you use. > Sure, but here is not the same, I say I heard it and I'm not the only > one, Again what more evidence you need to accept we feel it (not on why > and how), please be clear! The established gold standard is properly controlled, double-blind testing. The best standards are ITU-R BS.1116 and BS.1534. Both are definitely worth reading. > Why not, if you could hear a 40Hz pedal in your little room is becouse > of it. Try to measure and detect the 40Hz note in sound... The fact your > instruments could not detect it means is not there? > > The fact is that IS in the music BUT NOT in the sound (where music is > the perceived message ans sound is the phisical medium) becouse masking > take effects only in the uman brain. If it is not there it is not there. Just like there is a lot of stuff in a mp3 file that isn't there, but your ear fills in. If it isn't in the data, and it isn't in the sound wave that comes from your speaker, it isn't physically there. And that is not splitting hairs - it is a very important design parameter for the sound system that does or does not have to reproduce the 40 Hz signal - and in this case we don't, as it doesn't have to be there for your ear-brain combination to *think* that it is hearing a 40 Hz tone. It isn't. It is generating the perception in the brain. > The "errror" is in the instruments that don't look at the particular > combination of sounds being played that origin the 40Hz note or in my > brain? If for you is in my brain, ok, stop here. Isn't saying "if you don't agree with me, stop here" somewhat arrogant? If you perceive something that isn't physically there, how is it *not* "in your brain"? > Again and again and again... What evidence could someone give of his > perception other than to say I could feel it? Again and again and again, there are lots of test methods, such as double-blind ABX, that can verify if you really can perceive a difference. > Please be honest and clear!!! You want me to say I could not heard any > differences, but I can't if I want to be honest. But the question you should ask yourself (unless you arrogantly believe your senses are infallible) is "but how do I know the differences are real?" > Then You are judging about other people reliability, not evidences Only to the extent that I think someone who accepts the existence of the Loch Ness monster purely on the basis of somebody saying so, whoever the person, is rather gullible. > Again, just You need to change the theories first than accept the > evidence that some phenomenon could take place. First I need proof that our current theories don't work. > Actual thoeries on digital sound reproduction (that don't really care if > flac sound the same of wav at the analog output and why, by the way) are > valid since someone will eventually demostrate something different, but > this not means we could not accept and then investigate that some people > claim to hear some difference and they are not crazy. You are making the rather arrogant assumption that having conceptual biases (we all have them) means people are "crazy". I am all for investigating the claims - that is exactly what I am trying to advocate. How do *you* suggest we investigate them? > More and Again, I'm not here to demostrate anything other than state I - > and others - could hear some difference, are this anecdotes and hearsay? Yes - unless you provide some *verifiable* evidence. "To try to judge the real from the false will always be hard. In this fast-growing art of 'high fidelity' the quackery will bear a solid gilt edge that will fool many people" - Paul W Klipsch, 1953 Julf's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=42050 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=104227 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Once again - does wav sound different than flac?
SBGK wrote: > It's like the 3 Billy Goats Gruff story. Thanks for dropping in and providing the troll part! "To try to judge the real from the false will always be hard. In this fast-growing art of 'high fidelity' the quackery will bear a solid gilt edge that will fool many people" - Paul W Klipsch, 1953 Julf's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=42050 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=104227 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Once again - does wav sound different than flac?
marcoc1712 wrote: > Then I loose you, when you say that since we don't have a clear pattern > in people preferring DACs with better isolations, we should argue that > isolation does not have any matter in sound quality. > > In main stream market, sound quaility is not the priority, price (and > cost reduction) is for sure a more important factor, we are still > talking about absolute sond quality or about 'good enougth' objects? In > the latter case, I don't think anyone is taking care of the little > differences we are talking about... > > Has ever market pattern demostrate something other than people > behaivours is more sensitive to fashion than quality? I wasn't talking about the mainstream market. Have we seen any evidence from *audiophile* listening tests that *discerning listeners* prefer a) isolation from jitter (buffers and ASRCs) b) electrical noise? > Again, I'm not the one who could formulate a theory on how and why in > some systems and for some people flac do sund different than wav, so I > don't have to prove anything in this regard, no matter how long you'll > keep putting someothers words in my mouth You don't have to prove anything, but if you state "I hear a difference", without any supporting evidence, the only thing we can conclude is that you do believe you can hear a difference. It really doesn't tell us anything more than that. > 1. In perception matters the only evidence possible is someone sayng "I > feel it". I guess you missed the part where I pointed out that that is not true. Someone saying "I hear it" tells us what they *believe* they hear., but double-blind ABX can actually verify if they actually can hear a difference. > 2. The fact one could not explain how and why does not imply it could > not feel it. But in this case we have perfectly valid explanations for why you might think you hear something - but you are asking us to ignore the most plausible explanation (cognitive bias) and go for an explanation (theory) that has no evidence supporting it. There are simple experiments which can tell us which explanation is more valid/likely, but you choose to ignore them. I would call that arrogant. > 3. There is no 'scientific' demostrated thruth that 'is impossible'. No. There is simply a scientific process that you are ignoring. I suggest reading a 101 course in Theory of Knowledge. > 4. We have measurement that say difference are in place,the fact they > are considerer 'too little to be audible' is opinable. >From archimagos summary, it appears he disagrees with you. > Is that dogma and faith? I know who JS and others are, please, could you > explain what's your merits to say that? Yes, relying on somebody's merits and qualifications to determine if what they say is true or not is dogma and faith in authority. My "merits" are purely an academic education in electronics and digital systems, and something like 35 years of experience in audio and digital systems. But that really shouldn't have any bearing on the case. Either unicorns exist or they don't - just because the Pope declares them to exist (or not) doesn't prove anything. > Again, you looks to me a little arrogant... Real arrogance would be to quote Dilbert and state "Sometimes it is better if the aquarium owner doesn't explain to the turtle how the filtration system works". But jokes aside, I think the ultimate arrogance is assuming your own senses are infallible guides to the truth, and refusing to question your assumptions. Let's go back to the basic premise - you believe that file formats could make an audible difference. How do you suggest we can test that assumption in a repeatable, verifiable way? "To try to judge the real from the false will always be hard. In this fast-growing art of 'high fidelity' the quackery will bear a solid gilt edge that will fool many people" - Paul W Klipsch, 1953 Julf's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=42050 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=104227 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Once again - does wav sound different than flac?
marcoc1712 wrote: > Who is deciding witch one is strong or weak? We all do. If there is enough evidence, stuff becomes "accepted fact". > The only evidence about perception one could give is "I fell" or "I > can't feel". The last is weak, becouse if you - or eve majority cant' > fells something, is non that it does not exists... You will never prove > something this way, so better stop discussing it. Just because we can't prove that something doesn't exist doesn't prove that it exists. If you consistently fail to show any evidence that something exists, and accepted knowledge is indicating it shouldn't exist, why should we believe it exists? Do you believe in unicorns? I can't prove they don't exist... > I'm open minded and firm believer that one is honest until proved he is > not and even more, also if you have evidence that someone sometime lie, > this not mean he will always lie or is lying in this special matter. > > You know, I'm liar (how could you say I always lie then...). > > In any case, you moved from evidence matter to people reliability and I > don't think You, me and people in this forum is allowed to discuss > people reliability, is not so fair. No, this is not about necessarily suspecting people of lying (unless you count lying to yourself). I am convinced most people (we are not talking about snake oil vendors here) truly believe they are hearing the differences they claim they are hearing. But should they blindly believe what they think their senses are saying? Which of the two horizontal lines is shorter? 18793 > Other than this, You are not looking for evidences at all here, if was > like that you just asked if someone could feel differences, retaining > yourself by moking people reporting positive result and asking them to > demostrate is possible... > > This witch-hunt climax is not confortable and obviously prevent people > to produce evidences, this is why I first asked not to open this can of > worms, as an example, not so difficult to understand why. "Extraordinary claims demand extraordinary evidence". Audio technology is the result of engineering. Engineering is applied science. Not voodoo. You can't design a decent DAC just by throwing resistors in the air and watch how they land. OK, you *can* "design" a decent DAC by buying a suitable chip or board, inserting it in a "aircraft-grade virgin titanium" box and salting it with buzzwords, but that is a different story... > I first admit that not all the people, not in all the systems and not in > any circumstance heard differences betwen flac and wav, but i trust > someone in some systems in some circumstance could, just becouse they > (and I with them) report to. And I trust the Loch Ness monster exists, because people have reported seeing it/him/her. > Any why and how theory could result wrong and change in years, but this > does not means 'evidence' are false, in any matter. Are we talking about evidence, or "evidence"? Real evidence is subject to peer review and constant criticism - and that is a good thing. That is really what scientists mean when they talk about keeping an open mind. Theories are updated based on *validated* evidence, not anecdotes and hearsay. +---+ |Filename: ponzo-illusion-cortex-research.jpg | |Download: http://forums.slimdevices.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=18793| +---+ "To try to judge the real from the false will always be hard. In this fast-growing art of 'high fidelity' the quackery will bear a solid gilt edge that will fool many people" - Paul W Klipsch, 1953 Julf's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=42050 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=104227 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Once again - does wav sound different than flac?
marcoc1712 wrote: > Crazy audiophiles believe NOS ladder R2R DAC sounds better. Unless you > think all dacs sound the same, in that case no way you could heard > wav/flac differences, no ASRC here, sure. > > Noise (yes, rumor was a naive translation from italian) come from signal > line but also from power supply, ground paths and even EMI, RFI and > vibrations, as in any other analogue device, why should not in the > output stage of our beloved dac? Sure some device are better than > others, also in this aspect. Yes, analog stages of DACs definitely differ, and some are more susceptible to noise than others. But would that noise depend on the data format? This is where science and engineering comes in. Let's take the two most common "theories" (I'd rather call them "speculation") - 1) jitter is a major factor in the resulting sound, and jitter can be affected by the source and data format used, and 2) the source (and the data format used) is affecting the DAC through electrical noise conducted from the source to the DAC. The way the scientific method works is that you formulate tests, based on your theories, that can validate or invalidate your theory. In the case of jitter, DACs with ASRCs and fifo buffers should perform much better than DACs without them (albeit the ones with ASRCs might have other sound quality issues). Do we see a clear pattern of people preferring DACs with ASRCs and buffers? Do they do better in listening tests? In the case of electrical noise, do we find that systems using optical connections generally sound better than systems using electrical connections? I think the answer to both questions is "no". It is good to have an open mind, but that doesn't mean abandoning scientific thinking in favour of faith and dogma. "To try to judge the real from the false will always be hard. In this fast-growing art of 'high fidelity' the quackery will bear a solid gilt edge that will fool many people" - Paul W Klipsch, 1953 Julf's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=42050 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=104227 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Once again - does wav sound different than flac?
marcoc1712 wrote: > What's a decent evidence in this regards? Could you better explain what > we have to present as a proof we do heard some difference in our system > when playing flac or wav? There is no single criteria - some evidence is strong, some evidence is weak, but any evidence is better than no evidence at all. You present your evidence, others question it and try to replicate it - if questions and concerns are addressed, and others reach similar results, then the evidence gains credibility. "To try to judge the real from the false will always be hard. In this fast-growing art of 'high fidelity' the quackery will bear a solid gilt edge that will fool many people" - Paul W Klipsch, 1953 Julf's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=42050 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=104227 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Once again - does wav sound different than flac?
marcoc1712 wrote: > Jitter means nothing to you? Rurmor coming by interferences?...The final > stage of a dac Is nothing different from any analog device in that > matter. Most modern DAC designs have an ASRC or at least fifo buffer at their input that isolates the rest of the DAC from timing variations in the input, so jitter is less of an issue than it was 20 years ago. I assume your "rurmor" is hum and noise, and if that was an issue, we would see lots of reports of optical connections sounding much better than electrical ones. Do we? And yes, the final stage of a DAC is analog, but pretty well isolated (in any modern DAC design) from the input. "To try to judge the real from the false will always be hard. In this fast-growing art of 'high fidelity' the quackery will bear a solid gilt edge that will fool many people" - Paul W Klipsch, 1953 Julf's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=42050 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=104227 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Once again - does wav sound different than flac?
docbob wrote: > I merely object to the pretentious "it *can't* happen" attitude by some. Fair enough, and not an unreasonable reaction - but I do have to point out that with some of us, it is not "it *can't* happen", it is "unless there is decent evidence, it didn't happen" (a slight variation of 'pics or it didn't happen' (http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=pics+or+it+didn%27t+happen)). "To try to judge the real from the false will always be hard. In this fast-growing art of 'high fidelity' the quackery will bear a solid gilt edge that will fool many people" - Paul W Klipsch, 1953 Julf's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=42050 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=104227 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Once again - does wav sound different than flac?
docbob wrote: > Other than standards (like red book), there aren't "agreements" for > proper design, and engineers are free to make mistakes... and they do. > I'm not intending to disparage all, most, or even many current designs. > I just point out that design mistakes occur, even when the proper design > is printed in the textbook. There are widely accepted design rules, but yes, engineers are free to make mistakes, knowingly or not. It is still important to differentiate "wav sounds better than flac" from "this piece of gear is so badly designed that the CPU load affects the sound". "To try to judge the real from the false will always be hard. In this fast-growing art of 'high fidelity' the quackery will bear a solid gilt edge that will fool many people" - Paul W Klipsch, 1953 Julf's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=42050 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=104227 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Once again - does wav sound different than flac?
docbob wrote: > It's pretty arbitrary, right? 16 years for driving. 18,000 ft for Class > A airspace... Those two are arbitrary in the sense that they could equally well be 18 years (as in most European countries) or 5,500 metres (as it was in the bad old, purely metric, Soviet Union). But, while no laws of nature, they are not arbitrary in the sense of "well, whatever I think it is" - they are both the result of extensive research, studies, debates and agreements. Pretty much like the current scientific and engineering understanding of proper design of digital sound reproduction systems... "To try to judge the real from the false will always be hard. In this fast-growing art of 'high fidelity' the quackery will bear a solid gilt edge that will fool many people" - Paul W Klipsch, 1953 Julf's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=42050 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=104227 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Once again - does wav sound different than flac?
docbob wrote: > Sighted evaluations have flaws, but they are not worthless. They provide > the evaluation of the person- in situ-, i.e. as he/she will actually be > listening. But do we really need to evaluate the person (as opposed to the gear)? "To try to judge the real from the false will always be hard. In this fast-growing art of 'high fidelity' the quackery will bear a solid gilt edge that will fool many people" - Paul W Klipsch, 1953 Julf's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=42050 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=104227 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Once again - does wav sound different than flac?
marcoc1712 wrote: > Are you really asking this? What's means Monna Lisa is beautiful, how > was determined? Are you going to measure this? If I ask "Do you think Mona Lisa is beautiful or not?", I am asking for a subjective opinion (that can only be measured statistically over a large group of people), but if I ask "Are these two copies of Mona Lisa identical or not", then it is something that can very well be measured. "To try to judge the real from the false will always be hard. In this fast-growing art of 'high fidelity' the quackery will bear a solid gilt edge that will fool many people" - Paul W Klipsch, 1953 Julf's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=42050 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=104227 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Once again - does wav sound different than flac?
marcoc1712 wrote: > Better is a even more personal opinion based on each one perception, > culture and individual preferences, are you going to debate also this? > Hope you are not. > > Here you and I could not listen to his system, so please respect his > opinion, unless you are meaning it could not be, because they are > exactly and obviously the same, in that case state it directly and be > ready to prove that the difference - that indeed are in place - are > inaudible, for him in his system, not for you in your system, we already > know this. You might have noticed that I followed up with: Julf wrote: > And open eyes, I assume? > > What did you do to maintain an open mind (as opposed to one affected by > cognitive biases)? So yes, I was actually interested in hearing if it was purely a subjective opinion, or if there actually was some sort of formal listening test that attempted to address the issues associated with sighted listening. "To try to judge the real from the false will always be hard. In this fast-growing art of 'high fidelity' the quackery will bear a solid gilt edge that will fool many people" - Paul W Klipsch, 1953 Julf's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=42050 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=104227 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Once again - does wav sound different than flac?
netchord wrote: > open ears, open mind. And open eyes, I assume? What did you do to maintain an open mind (as opposed to one affected by cognitive biases)? "To try to judge the real from the false will always be hard. In this fast-growing art of 'high fidelity' the quackery will bear a solid gilt edge that will fool many people" - Paul W Klipsch, 1953 Julf's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=42050 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=104227 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Once again - does wav sound different than flac?
ralphpnj wrote: > Question: does it sound better or does it just perform better, i.e. less > buffering, or both? And how was the "better" determined? "To try to judge the real from the false will always be hard. In this fast-growing art of 'high fidelity' the quackery will bear a solid gilt edge that will fool many people" - Paul W Klipsch, 1953 Julf's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=42050 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=104227 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Once again - does wav sound different than flac?
OK, to provide some more meaningless numbers...
I took a 4-minute CD track ("Making plans for Nigel" by XTC), made two
copies, one flac and one wav, stripped all tags from the flac (so that
there wouldn't be a major difference in display activity during
playback), removed the wav->flc rule from convert.conf, and played each
track in a loop for 15 minutes on my squeezebox touch, while monitoring
the load with "top".
Results? Meaningless. The CPU and I/O load varies too much to give any
reasonable picture - the only thing I can say is that not surprisingly,
wav uses more system time in relation to user space time compared to
flac.
The short-term load figures for wav were more uneven compared to flac,
with occasional sudden bursts of very heavy load (I assume when
copying/filling buffers).
The 15-minute load averages were too close to call - 0.64 for wav, 0.63
for flac.
Conclusion: the differences are too small to determine by simplistic
measures like this, and it does indeed seem that wav trades application
CPU usage for system CPU usage.
"To try to judge the real from the false will always be hard. In this
fast-growing art of 'high fidelity' the quackery will bear a solid gilt
edge that will fool many people" - Paul W Klipsch, 1953
Julf's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=42050
View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=104227
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Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Once again - does wav sound different than flac?
marcoc1712 wrote: > You posted here something regarding Jitter, are we talking about this? > I'm not, so any conclusion is irrrilevant here. You are talking about audible differences. As we all agree there is no change in the actual bits, the differences have to be either jitter or noise. > The other Article by Archimago, posted in the other thd Is much more > relevant, since compare the output from different formats. Please read > conclusions. Could you post a link and quote the part of the conclusions you think support your position? > I've scrolled but found ANY measure... Definitely several mentions of measurements. No actual numbers, but then your numbers, without any details of hws they were measured, are rather worthless: pippin wrote: > I've done measurements with a profiler on ARM6 on iOS in the past and > there the App side of the network code alone (reading the data from the > network subsystem and writing it into the output ring buffer) created > more load than reading half the data as FLAC and decoding the FLAC but > that might be caused partially by inefficiencies in the iOS network > subsystem. It definitely shows how efficient FLAC is, there's almost no > CPU load involved for the decoding alone. Wombat wrote: > I didn't think about these things a while but remember a developer of > the rockbox alternative player firmware team posted something similar at > hydrogenaudio. Playing flac allowed players playing longer as > uncompressed. As to he questions you didn't answer: Julf wrote: > So your load numbers are not total system load numbers? Are they the > numbers just for the squeezelite process? Is kernel-side load included? > How did you measure it? > "To try to judge the real from the false will always be hard. In this fast-growing art of 'high fidelity' the quackery will bear a solid gilt edge that will fool many people" - Paul W Klipsch, 1953 Julf's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=42050 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=104227 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Once again - does wav sound different than flac?
marcoc1712 wrote: > measuring Jitter and measurinng THD or others at the analog out is > different. How do you think jitter is usually measured? "To try to judge the real from the false will always be hard. In this fast-growing art of 'high fidelity' the quackery will bear a solid gilt edge that will fool many people" - Paul W Klipsch, 1953 Julf's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=42050 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=104227 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Once again - does wav sound different than flac?
marcoc1712 wrote: > I really don't think so, actually very poor 'measuring systems' could > reach -140 db and more, actually -90 db is not a so good S/N ratio for a > decent DAC. Did you actually read archimago's conclusions? > I've posted mine, if you don't believe they are true, is not up to > me... How about answering the follow-up questions? > Where are yours or from "other people"? Please point me to ANY > measurement where CPU load - at same samplerate, channels, endianess and > dept - is better for flac than for Wav. Please scroll up. "To try to judge the real from the false will always be hard. In this fast-growing art of 'high fidelity' the quackery will bear a solid gilt edge that will fool many people" - Paul W Klipsch, 1953 Julf's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=42050 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=104227 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Once again - does wav sound different than flac?
marcoc1712 wrote: > I was the first asking not to open this can of worm , again... Yes and no. Had you simply stated "I know there is no audible difference, but I have other reasons", it probably would not have caused any reactions. But instead you argued for the audibility of the differences, just like below: > Aftre reding the Archimago article, it's clear (and is not nothing) that > differences are little but are in place, "-90db means are inaudible" is > wrong, it depends on many factors. But here I think other than IT guys > should join the discussion. No, -90dB means "probably at the limit of the measuring system". > Measure by two different systems shows me that CPU usage is increasing > using flac vs WAV, network traffic is - of course - decreasing by a > greater factor (see the original THD for details), but sure, those > measure are too naif. > > I'm still missing the one that prouf the opposite and - in any case- I > think they are not 'the answer' to the question. We have asked you for details about your measurements. Meanwhile several people have pointed out measurements that show less load when using flac. "To try to judge the real from the false will always be hard. In this fast-growing art of 'high fidelity' the quackery will bear a solid gilt edge that will fool many people" - Paul W Klipsch, 1953 Julf's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=42050 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=104227 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Once again - does wav sound different than flac?
SBGK wrote: > that's easy, just empty Loch Ness of water and if there's not a monster > at the bottom then it doesn't exist. Though it could have gone to the > pub that evening, I suppose. Exactly - that is precisely the issue. Even if you managed to empty Loch Ness, there would be someone that would claim Nessie was out for a walk... "To try to judge the real from the false will always be hard. In this fast-growing art of 'high fidelity' the quackery will bear a solid gilt edge that will fool many people" - Paul W Klipsch, 1953 Julf's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=42050 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=104227 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Once again - does wav sound different than flac?
SBGK wrote: > what's the chain ? > > flac -> sox -> aplay -> pcm -> kernel -> drivers -> device > > wav -> aplay -> pcm -> kernel -> drivers -> device > > so kernel and drivers see the same amount of data unless the sample > rates and/or bit depth are different, but then you're comparing apples > and pears. I have no idea what your chains are based on, but they seem to completely ignore the network. "To try to judge the real from the false will always be hard. In this fast-growing art of 'high fidelity' the quackery will bear a solid gilt edge that will fool many people" - Paul W Klipsch, 1953 Julf's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=42050 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=104227 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] generating free energy by using chrystal
arnyk wrote: > You just spoke for yourself, whether or not you are self-aware to > perceive it or not. Of course. "To try to judge the real from the false will always be hard. In this fast-growing art of 'high fidelity' the quackery will bear a solid gilt edge that will fool many people" - Paul W Klipsch, 1953 Julf's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=42050 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=104207 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] generating free energy by using chrystal
arnyk wrote: > You've got to get over your apparent belief that you are as educated as > anybody. You obviously aren't. That makes you an easy target. A perfect example of the 'Dunning-Kruger effect' (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunning%E2%80%93Kruger_effect). "To try to judge the real from the false will always be hard. In this fast-growing art of 'high fidelity' the quackery will bear a solid gilt edge that will fool many people" - Paul W Klipsch, 1953 Julf's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=42050 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=104207 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] generating free energy by using chrystal
SBGK wrote: > Or what ? It was just a friendly suggestion to avoid the impression that you just disappear off into silence whenever someone asks questions that shows the errors in your arguments. All up to you if you choose to answer or run away. As it is off-topic to this thread, I'll leave it at that. "To try to judge the real from the false will always be hard. In this fast-growing art of 'high fidelity' the quackery will bear a solid gilt edge that will fool many people" - Paul W Klipsch, 1953 Julf's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=42050 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=104207 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] generating free energy by using chrystal
SBGK wrote: > Rather confused thinking there about extracting energy by making the > wind turbulent. Ah, nice to have you back! Now that you are here, how about the 'unfinished business' (http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?104136-MEASUREMENTS-Audiophile-Sound-and-Operating-Systems-(Windows-8-1-Windows-10-)&p=827775&viewfull=1#post827775)? "To try to judge the real from the false will always be hard. In this fast-growing art of 'high fidelity' the quackery will bear a solid gilt edge that will fool many people" - Paul W Klipsch, 1953 Julf's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=42050 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=104207 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
[SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Once again - does wav sound different than flac?
User marcoc1712 started 'this thread' (http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?104198-Disk-and-folder-browsing&p=828137&viewfull=1#post828137) in the developer forum. The tread is primarily about possible bugs associated with trying to stream pure pcm or wav format files. In order to keep that thread focused on the actual functioning of the software, this thread, here in the Audiophile subforum, is discussion about the possible claimed benefits (and disadvantages) of "raw" pcm vs. flac. Technically wav isn't a very good format for streaming, so anyone using it probably has reasons for doing so. The usual reason is the audiophile folklore about "uncompressed" sounding better than lossless compression. Often the folklore is based on misunderstanding the nature of lossless encodings, but a slightly more sophisticated argument is based on the supposed extra CPU load caused by flac decoding. This ignores the added processing and IO load (not just in the player application, but also in the kernel and device drivers) caused by the redundant data - and assumes that small differences in CPU load would cause audible differences. Archimago 'measured the effect of cpu load on jiitter' (http://archimago.blogspot.com/2013/03/measurements-hunt-for-load-induced.html) in 2013, and concluded that "symmetrical jitter sidebands are no different whether CPU or GPU load high". So far I have not seen any measurements or controlled listening tests showing any audible difference. I would welcome pointers to either. "To try to judge the real from the false will always be hard. In this fast-growing art of 'high fidelity' the quackery will bear a solid gilt edge that will fool many people" - Paul W Klipsch, 1953 Julf's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=42050 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=104227 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] generating free energy by using chrystal
ralphpnj wrote: > there is no free lunch. Except if you are a high-end audio reviewer... "To try to judge the real from the false will always be hard. In this fast-growing art of 'high fidelity' the quackery will bear a solid gilt edge that will fool many people" - Paul W Klipsch, 1953 Julf's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=42050 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=104207 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] generating free energy by using chrystal
arnyk wrote: > Hiding a coil of wire attached to a power source under the table and > never revealing it seems to be a clear cut example of malice. > > Some one is going to convince me that they were too ignorant to know... > ??? Come on, did evil spirits make you construct the coil and hide it > when you were unconscious? GMAB! > > Many equally unbelievable circumstances can be found on CA. No, on CA they would insist that we can not be sure that all of the effect was provided by the power source under the table, so despite this one being based on malicious intent, the actual effect was probably still there... "To try to judge the real from the false will always be hard. In this fast-growing art of 'high fidelity' the quackery will bear a solid gilt edge that will fool many people" - Paul W Klipsch, 1953 Julf's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=42050 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=104207 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] generating free energy by using chrystal
Mnyb wrote: > was it not some one who said that we should not invoke intent or agents > where normal stupidity is the likely answer. Hanlon's razor - "Never attribute to malice that which is adequately explained by stupidity". "To try to judge the real from the false will always be hard. In this fast-growing art of 'high fidelity' the quackery will bear a solid gilt edge that will fool many people" - Paul W Klipsch, 1953 Julf's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=42050 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=104207 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
[SlimDevices: Audiophiles] generating free energy by using chrystal
I am sure this would have applications in audio too. 'Free Energy & Over-unity Charging Circuit' (https://youtu.be/VOAaFyv_shY) Please watch to the end, or skip to 6:20 after watching at least the beginning... "To try to judge the real from the false will always be hard. In this fast-growing art of 'high fidelity' the quackery will bear a solid gilt edge that will fool many people" - Paul W Klipsch, 1953 Julf's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=42050 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=104207 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] MEASUREMENTS: Audiophile Sound and Operating Systems. (Windows 8.1, Windows 10...)
SBGK wrote: > no, I think the tirnahifi ban was for trolling and the CA was for > promising not to troll after the first ban and then continuing to troll, > facts is facts, doncha know. Facts for facts the tirnahifi ban was because you demanded my removal. Anyway, no big loss, and I am glad you changed your license to reflect reality. But thanks for dropping back in - seems there was some unfinished business: Archimago wrote: > Excellent points and discussions folks... I wonder if this is also the > point at which SBGK typically bows out of these discussions. > > SBGK: Stay and talk if you're seriously committed to your findings. > Speaking about the theory is good but it would truly be great if there > is a way to discuss how you think your theories can be verified. Archimago wrote: > Hi Mnyb. Yes, I agree :-). I think the tests speak for themselves in > capturing all I think can be captured in a way that would encompass what > we can hear... Differences beyond the core finding of the tests as far > as I can tell would be inaudible. > > Nonetheless, I do want to hear from folks like SBGK to make sure > verifiable claims are looked at. If claims are unverifiable; perhaps > better yet the beliefs "unfalsifiable", then I think we can say clearly > we are not dealing with the scientific domain. > > SBGK: here's a thought. Since you have developed the software over > years, maybe you can give us 2 versions. One that sounds 'good', and one > 'bad' (early version? Poor compilation settings?). No messing around > with bitperfect of course. Surely with all the incremental improvements, > differences would be additive and at some point measurable, right? > > If not, then what physical characteristics do you think should be looked > at / measured? Or do you believe it's just not measurable? bonze wrote: > So can we take it [...] that you no longer have a squeezebox product? Archimago wrote: > Have you tried to measure the sonic output from the various iterations > of your program? Can you identify what component of high fidelity > improves with each iteration? For example, with the response above, why > do you think v69 "had more clarity" in physical / engineering terms? Julf wrote: > So how does the speed of the render loop correlate with sound quality? > Or perhaps an easier question - How is the speed of the render loop > reflected in any way in the waveform coming out of the DAC? "To try to judge the real from the false will always be hard. In this fast-growing art of 'high fidelity' the quackery will bear a solid gilt edge that will fool many people" - Paul W Klipsch, 1953 Julf's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=42050 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=104136 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] The Case for Ignorance
And how long before someone mentions quantum physics? "To try to judge the real from the false will always be hard. In this fast-growing art of 'high fidelity' the quackery will bear a solid gilt edge that will fool many people" - Paul W Klipsch, 1953 Julf's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=42050 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=104178 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] MEASUREMENTS: Audiophile Sound and Operating Systems. (Windows 8.1, Windows 10...)
Mnyb wrote: > Yes but have the changed sponsor i cant find the shill article about AQ > cables he wrote ? who is CA's new pimp ?g Don't know - I was banned from CA after pointing out that sgbk was in violation of his own software license terms... "To try to judge the real from the false will always be hard. In this fast-growing art of 'high fidelity' the quackery will bear a solid gilt edge that will fool many people" - Paul W Klipsch, 1953 Julf's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=42050 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=104136 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Merchants of Doubt
ralphpnj wrote: > Even though the issues dealt with in this documentary (based on the book > of the same title - > http://www.amazon.com/Merchants-Doubt-Handful-Scientists-Obscured/dp/1608193942) > are much more important than anything in the world of audio, watching > this film (it's a very entertaining 90 minutes - > http://www.imdb.com/title/tt3675568/?ref_=nv_sr_3) will give you a very > good idea of how the high end audio business model works. At times > fascinating, troubling, infuriating and amazing. A must see for any > reformed audiophile. Thanks for the link! Excellent - and yes, I agree - ""Doubt is our product," wrote one executive. These "experts" supplied it." works as well for business="high end audio" as for business="tobacco". "To try to judge the real from the false will always be hard. In this fast-growing art of 'high fidelity' the quackery will bear a solid gilt edge that will fool many people" - Paul W Klipsch, 1953 Julf's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=42050 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=104168 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] MEASUREMENTS: Audiophile Sound and Operating Systems. (Windows 8.1, Windows 10...)
Wombat wrote: > No matter how correct you are, there are prayers to undermine all > obvious conclusions of experiments done the way Archimago does. > Here JS feeds the community with what they want to hear. Maybe now that > the Regen business started it becomes even more important. > http://www.computeraudiophile.com/f8-general-forum/gordon-rankin-says-im-wrong-about-universal-serial-bus-industry-standard-cables-connectors-and-communications-protocols-between-computers-and-electronic-devices-cable-sound-20814/index53.html#post445769 > This Quote may be most interesting: > "Once you get the reproduction very close, there are some very small > changes that can make the perception say "wow it is real", even though > the usual measuring systems cannot distinguish any differences." Ah, yes, some people do have a vested interest in pushing foo - and computer audiophile jumped the shark long ago, pretty much when it went commercial... "To try to judge the real from the false will always be hard. In this fast-growing art of 'high fidelity' the quackery will bear a solid gilt edge that will fool many people" - Paul W Klipsch, 1953 Julf's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=42050 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=104136 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] MEASUREMENTS: Audiophile Sound and Operating Systems. (Windows 8.1, Windows 10...)
Archimago wrote: > Except in the case of audiophilia, science has been in retreat and we're > in the perverse and unenviable position of ending up being: > -*"A bunch of assholes trying to DISPROVE shit."*- Because evidently audiophiles don't drink their tea out of Russell's tea pot... 18595 +---+ |Filename: russells-teapot.jpg | |Download: http://forums.slimdevices.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=18595| +---+ "To try to judge the real from the false will always be hard. In this fast-growing art of 'high fidelity' the quackery will bear a solid gilt edge that will fool many people" - Paul W Klipsch, 1953 Julf's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=42050 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=104136 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] MEASUREMENTS: Audiophile Sound and Operating Systems. (Windows 8.1, Windows 10...)
Mnyb wrote: > They also don't realise that archimagi have measured to a resolution > greater than CD (-112dB) his "low end" system is thus transparent to CD > resolution material , everything on A CD passes trough . So if some one > heard differences in this department when listening to CD standard > material ;) they have to explain by what mechanism these alleged > differences enter the brain . It's obvuisly not carried by the > electrical signal from the DAC and thus not by any sound wave reaching a > listener . Ah, but anyone who has listened to Neil Young knows that the CD standard is a truly crap standard - even 8-track tape is better. :) "To try to judge the real from the false will always be hard. In this fast-growing art of 'high fidelity' the quackery will bear a solid gilt edge that will fool many people" - Paul W Klipsch, 1953 Julf's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=42050 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=104136 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] MEASUREMENTS: Audiophile Sound and Operating Systems. (Windows 8.1, Windows 10...)
18593 +---+ |Filename: e1e934726a413b96b69081703632546d.jpg | |Download: http://forums.slimdevices.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=18593| +---+ "To try to judge the real from the false will always be hard. In this fast-growing art of 'high fidelity' the quackery will bear a solid gilt edge that will fool many people" - Paul W Klipsch, 1953 Julf's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=42050 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=104136 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] MEASUREMENTS: Audiophile Sound and Operating Systems. (Windows 8.1, Windows 10...)
Archimago wrote: > Nonetheless, I do want to hear from folks like SBGK to make sure > verifiable claims are looked at. If claims are unverifiable; perhaps > better yet the beliefs "unfalsifiable", then I think we can say clearly > we are not dealing with the scientific domain. Yes, that is a very under-appreciated part of science - the huge amount of tests, studies and measurements where we are already pretty sure that the results will be negative, but it still has to be done, so we can be sure. "To try to judge the real from the false will always be hard. In this fast-growing art of 'high fidelity' the quackery will bear a solid gilt edge that will fool many people" - Paul W Klipsch, 1953 Julf's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=42050 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=104136 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] MEASUREMENTS: Audiophile Sound and Operating Systems. (Windows 8.1, Windows 10...)
Mnyb wrote: > Are we not making things to complicated in these cases archimago shows > with two methods that the output of the dac is the same hence no need > for DBT or other complex measures. That is the whole point about the scientific method (especially post-Popper) - any scientific theory should make predictions or falsifiable statements that can be tested. We don't know what we are supposed to measure or test, as the speculations we have seen are too vague and contain no falsifiable statements to verify, apart from "xxx makes an audible difference", leaving DBT as the only test method. "To try to judge the real from the false will always be hard. In this fast-growing art of 'high fidelity' the quackery will bear a solid gilt edge that will fool many people" - Paul W Klipsch, 1953 Julf's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=42050 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=104136 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] MEASUREMENTS: Audiophile Sound and Operating Systems. (Windows 8.1, Windows 10...)
arnyk wrote: > How is hearing a difference in a DBT really any different from hearing a > difference in any other context? It isn't. Well, if you have drunk the cool-aid, the artificiality, forced conditions and pressure of DBT makes you less sensitive to differences - just like the bad vibrations caused by the presence of a sceptic in a room makes fairies less likely to show up. :) This effect of controls spoiling bad science is in no way restricted to audiophiles or parapsychologists - 'Registered clinical trials make positive findings vanish' (http://www.nature.com/news/registered-clinical-trials-make-positive-findings-vanish-1.18181). "To try to judge the real from the false will always be hard. In this fast-growing art of 'high fidelity' the quackery will bear a solid gilt edge that will fool many people" - Paul W Klipsch, 1953 Julf's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=42050 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=104136 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] MEASUREMENTS: Audiophile Sound and Operating Systems. (Windows 8.1, Windows 10...)
arnyk wrote: > It's also false because it forces a false dichotomy between observations > and measurements when in fact they are the same thing. I think the way SBGK uses the word "observation" is in the sense of "acquisition of information employing the senses", while you are using it in the scientific meaning of the word. A few useful reminders on 'observation' (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Observation): > Observations play a role in the second and fifth steps of the scientific > method. However the need for reproducibility requires that observations > by different observers can be comparable. Human sense impressions are > subjective and qualitative making them difficult to record or compare. > Theed or shared by all observers, and counting how many of the standard > units are comparable to the object. Measurement reduces an observation > to a number which can be recorded, and two observations which result in > the same number are equal within the resolution of the process. > > Senses are limited, and are subject to errors in perception such as > optical illusions. Scientific instruments were developed to magnify > human powers of observation, such as weighing scales, clocks, > telescopes, microscopes, thermometers, cameras, and tape recorders, and > also translate into perceptible form events that are unobservable by > human senses, such as indicator dyes, voltmeters, spectrometers, > infrared cameras, oscilloscopes, interferometers, geiger counters, x-ray > machines, and radio receivers. > The human senses do not function like a video camcorder, impartially > recording all observations. Human perception occurs by a complex, > unconscious process of abstraction, in which certain details of the > incoming sense data are noticed and remembered, and the rest forgotten. > What is kept and what is thrown away depends on an internal model or > representation of the world, called by psychologists a schema, that is > built up over our entire lives. The data is fitted into this schema. > Later when events are remembered, memory gaps may even be filled by > "plausible" data the mind makes up to fit the model; this is called > reconstructive memory. How much attention the various perceived data are > given depends on an internal value system, which judges how important it > is to the individual. Thus two people can view the same event and come > away with entirely different perceptions of it, even disagreeing about > simple facts. This is why eyewitness testimony is notoriously > unreliable. > Human observations are biased toward confirming the observer's conscious > and unconscious expectations and view of the world; we "see what we > expect to see". In psychology, this is called confirmation bias. Since > the object of scientific research is the discovery of new phenomena, > this bias can and has caused new discoveries to be overlooked. One > example is the discovery of x-rays. It can also result in erroneous > scientific support for widely held cultural myths, for example the > scientific racism that supported ideas of racial superiority in the > early 20th century. Correct scientific technique emphasizes careful > recording of observations, separating experimental observations from the > conclusions drawn from them, and techniques such as blind or double > blind experiments, to minimize observational bias. > Another bias, which has become more prevalent with the advent of "big > science" and the large rewards of new discoveries, is bias in favor of > the researcher's desired hypothesis or outcome; we "see what we want to > see". Called pathological science and cargo cult science, this is > different from deliberate falsification of results, and can happen to > good-faith researchers. Researchers with a great incentive or desire for > a given outcome can misinterpret or misjudge results, or even persuade > themselves they have seen something they haven't. Possible examples of > mistaken discoveries caused by this bias are Martian "canals", N rays, > polywater, cold fusion, and perpetual motion machines. Recent decades > have seen scientific scandals caused by researchers playing "fast and > loose" with observational methods in order to get their pet theories > published. This type of bias is rampant in pseudoscience, where correct > scientific techniques are not followed. The main defense against this > bias, besides correct research techniques, is peer review and repetition > of the experiment, or the observation, by other researchers with no > incentive to bias. For example, an emerging practice in the competitive > field of biotechnology is to require the physical results of > experiments, such as serums and tissue cultures, be made available to > competing laboratories for independent testing. "To try to judge the real from the false will always be hard. In this fast-growing art of 'high fidelity' the quackery will bear a solid gilt edge that will fool many people" - Paul W Klipsch, 1953 --
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] MEASUREMENTS: Audiophile Sound and Operating Systems. (Windows 8.1, Windows 10...)
SBGK wrote: > Most science was observed or theorized before actual measurements were > made, so I don't think I'm being unscientific in my discoveries. I was talking about the scientific method, so confining myself to empirical science. And you are definitely not following scientific methodology. "A central concept in science and the scientific method is that it must be empirically based on the evidence of the senses. Both natural and social sciences use working hypotheses that are testable by observation and experiment." Here is a good first pointer: 'Explorable.com: Empirical Research' (https://explorable.com/empirical-research). > Just the measurers need to step up their game and measure rather than > sniping from the sidelines. Anyone can make claims or speculate, but if they want to be taken seriously, they have to provide evidence for their claims and a rational basis for their speculation. Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence, and so far you have provided none. > the current version only plays one track at a time and people are > concatenating files so they can play a whole album, would they be doing > that if they didn't like the sound or they could get the same from using > foobar? 'Psychology wiki: Irrational beliefs' (http://psychology.wikia.com/wiki/Irrational_beliefs). "To try to judge the real from the false will always be hard. In this fast-growing art of 'high fidelity' the quackery will bear a solid gilt edge that will fool many people" - Paul W Klipsch, 1953 Julf's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=42050 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=104136 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] MEASUREMENTS: Audiophile Sound and Operating Systems. (Windows 8.1, Windows 10...)
bonze wrote: > Congrats! seems you got a bite on both threads :cool: Looking forward to a constructive, rational and fact-based discussion :) "To try to judge the real from the false will always be hard. In this fast-growing art of 'high fidelity' the quackery will bear a solid gilt edge that will fool many people" - Paul W Klipsch, 1953 Julf's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=42050 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=104136 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] MEASUREMENTS: Audiophile Sound and Operating Systems. (Windows 8.1, Windows 10...)
Mnyb wrote: > There is next lever of silly , sound quality differences of OS when used > as squeezebox server . In this case no audio is going on the server at > all as the player do the payback in the squeezebox world. But that level of silliness is actually a very useful data point, in that it really illustrates the problems with the whole subjective, placebophile and "just try it, you will hear a difference" snake oil approach by means of an reductio ad absurdum. If people are convinced that there is a difference when anyone with even basic knowledge about electrical engineering and information science know that there is no possible mechanism causing a real difference (as opposed to a perceived one), then what about their claims in similar, but less ridiculously silly situations? The fact that "we can't measure everything" audiophiles willingly embrace the foo is a damning statement about their belief system. "To try to judge the real from the false will always be hard. In this fast-growing art of 'high fidelity' the quackery will bear a solid gilt edge that will fool many people" - Paul W Klipsch, 1953 Julf's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=42050 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=104136 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] MEASUREMENTS: Audiophile Sound and Operating Systems. (Windows 8.1, Windows 10...)
SBGK wrote: > Now what about answering my questions to you about how you can measure > something when you can't hear any differences, most people would hear a > difference and then investigate why. And the investigation would follow the scientific method. First you would verify that there really is a difference, by isolating possible other causes (such as confirmation bias and the placebo effect), and by independent verification / replication. Then you would formulate an attempt at explaining the phenomenon, and come up with testable statements about it - and make the tests, to verify your explanation. "To try to judge the real from the false will always be hard. In this fast-growing art of 'high fidelity' the quackery will bear a solid gilt edge that will fool many people" - Paul W Klipsch, 1953 Julf's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=42050 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=104136 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] MEASUREMENTS: Audiophile Sound and Operating Systems. (Windows 8.1, Windows 10...)
SBGK wrote: > Well, the render loop takes 9 uops with no port pressure or register > stalls, that's the only measurement I've done recently, seems better > than the previous 13 and 11 uop versions. So how does the speed of the render loop correlate with sound quality? Or perhaps an easier question - How is the speed of the render loop reflected in any way in the waveform coming out of the DAC? "To try to judge the real from the false will always be hard. In this fast-growing art of 'high fidelity' the quackery will bear a solid gilt edge that will fool many people" - Paul W Klipsch, 1953 Julf's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=42050 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=104136 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] MEASUREMENTS: Audiophile Sound and Operating Systems. (Windows 8.1, Windows 10...)
Archimago wrote: > Yeah. Plus he admits to having some kind of mental issue and finds > programming a source of comfort. That's cool. No need to stress the guy > out. Indeed. But he does seem to exhibit the rather frequent combination of unverified, non-scientific "miracle audiophilia" and other pseudoscientific beliefs (such as the vitamin C thing). I am not going to add "and some kind of mental issue" to that list. :) "To try to judge the real from the false will always be hard. In this fast-growing art of 'high fidelity' the quackery will bear a solid gilt edge that will fool many people" - Paul W Klipsch, 1953 Julf's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=42050 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=104136 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] MEASUREMENTS: Audiophile Sound and Operating Systems. (Windows 8.1, Windows 10...)
SBGK wrote: > I just recompiled mqn using vs 2015 and that made a difference to the > sq, another factor to measure. Would love to see the results of your measurements. "To try to judge the real from the false will always be hard. In this fast-growing art of 'high fidelity' the quackery will bear a solid gilt edge that will fool many people" - Paul W Klipsch, 1953 Julf's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=42050 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=104136 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] MEASUREMENTS: Audiophile Sound and Operating Systems. (Windows 8.1, Windows 10...)
Archimago wrote: > I actually think the "ultimate" in tweakability is Bug Head Emperor - > MEGA tuning opportunities: 'http://orya.world.coocan.jp/bughead' > (http://orya.world.coocan.jp/bughead/) > > Look at the description on that page and self-disclosure. Well, at least the poor guy is honest - "However, I am not able to show scientific basis." "To try to judge the real from the false will always be hard. In this fast-growing art of 'high fidelity' the quackery will bear a solid gilt edge that will fool many people" - Paul W Klipsch, 1953 Julf's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=42050 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=104136 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] MEASUREMENTS: Audiophile Sound and Operating Systems. (Windows 8.1, Windows 10...)
Wombat wrote: > This is again a good one! This makes me wonder how far this OS > optimizing and the search for the perfect player got and why? Wasn't the 'mqnplayer' (http://mqnplayer.blogspot.nl/) the ultimate incarnation of this silliness? "To try to judge the real from the false will always be hard. In this fast-growing art of 'high fidelity' the quackery will bear a solid gilt edge that will fool many people" - Paul W Klipsch, 1953 Julf's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=42050 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=104137 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] MEASUREMENTS: Audiophile Sound and Operating Systems. (Windows 8.1, Windows 10...)
Archimago wrote: > Well folks, now that Windows 10 is released, I bet a number of folks are > wondering *yet again* whether the OS will make things "sound better"... Just like people will be wondering if they might not see Bigfoot again this year. Thanks for the measurements and writeup - it must be frustrating to have to keep making the measurements over and over just to conclude that the laws of physics actually still work... "To try to judge the real from the false will always be hard. In this fast-growing art of 'high fidelity' the quackery will bear a solid gilt edge that will fool many people" - Paul W Klipsch, 1953 Julf's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=42050 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=104136 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Calling Arny... What do you make of this? (Amir's ABX again...)
ralphpnj wrote: > By the way a very similar argument can be used to prove how much better > pro-audio equipment is than any consumer grade audio equipment, > including "high end" audio equipment, by just quoting any professional > audio engineer. Ah, but there is the word "engineer" in there. We all know that engineers don't know anything about quality and emotion - they are narrow-minded small souls who just blindly follow numbers and rules. "To try to judge the real from the false will always be hard. In this fast-growing art of 'high fidelity' the quackery will bear a solid gilt edge that will fool many people" - Paul W Klipsch, 1953 Julf's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=42050 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=104081 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Calling Arny... What do you make of this? (Amir's ABX again...)
Archimago wrote: > I guess that's that then. For us, yes, but probably not for the crusaders who see it as the ultimate (and only) proof that ABX doesn't work, and will keep quoting it. "To try to judge the real from the false will always be hard. In this fast-growing art of 'high fidelity' the quackery will bear a solid gilt edge that will fool many people" - Paul W Klipsch, 1953 Julf's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=42050 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=104081 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Ars Technica / Randi Ethernet Test Results...
Archimago wrote: > Oh my. Missed opportunity IMO... Indeed. A shame. "To try to judge the real from the false will always be hard. In this fast-growing art of 'high fidelity' the quackery will bear a solid gilt edge that will fool many people" - Paul W Klipsch, 1953 Julf's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=42050 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=104060 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] I need a new turntable. Suggestions.
d6jg wrote: > I read somewhere that vinyl sales in 2014 had increased dramatically. It is always easy to do dramatic increase from "almost nothing" to "very little" :) "In November 2014, it was reported that over one million vinyl records had been sold in the UK since the beginning of the year. Sales had not reached this level since 1996. The British Phonographic Industry (BPI) predicted that Christmas sales would bring the total for the year to around 1.2 million. However, vinyl sales were still a very small proportion of total music sales. Pink Floyds The Endless River became the fastest-selling UK vinyl release of 2014 - and the fastest-selling since 1997 - despite selling only 6,000 copies." 18428 +---+ |Filename: Screen-Shot-2013-05-02-at-23.13.37-500x255.png | |Download: http://forums.slimdevices.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=18428| +---+ "To try to judge the real from the false will always be hard. In this fast-growing art of 'high fidelity' the quackery will bear a solid gilt edge that will fool many people" - Paul W Klipsch, 1953 Julf's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=42050 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=104038 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] I need a new turntable. Suggestions.
arnyk wrote: > The evidence I see suggests that as my generation dies off, so will > vinyl. This time for real. But fortunately there will be the hipster 8-track/c-cassette revival (albeit short-lived, as all hipster trends are, by definition). :) "To try to judge the real from the false will always be hard. In this fast-growing art of 'high fidelity' the quackery will bear a solid gilt edge that will fool many people" - Paul W Klipsch, 1953 Julf's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=42050 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=104038 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] I need a new turntable. Suggestions.
Archimago wrote: > I'm wondering in the DJ'ing community, what's the demand for traditional > turntables like over the years? I did a friend's birthday party with the > free 'Mixxx software' (http://www.mixxx.org/) a few months ago and I > think it came out sounding pretty good even though it was the first time > using the program. I still have a 'Numark iDJ2' (http://www.numark.com/product/idj2) (that I got because I know the people who designed it), but I very rarely use it - for the occasional DJ gig I do, it is now completely laptop-based. "To try to judge the real from the false will always be hard. In this fast-growing art of 'high fidelity' the quackery will bear a solid gilt edge that will fool many people" - Paul W Klipsch, 1953 Julf's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=42050 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=104038 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Question on equipment
Archimago wrote: > Well. Nothing wrong with Ferraris! But when was the last time a Ferrari > afficianado claims better MPG than a Honda Civic :confused:? At least > they concede to the objective facts and can be proud of why they love > their car... Not really. A lot of Ferrari owners a) think Ferraris are actually better than other cars, and b) think Ferrari is a car company (as opposed to a brand). > Most reasonable people already know that homeopathy / conspiracies / > superstitions / horoscopes are bunk. Really? Look at the number of people in the US who believe in creationism. Or "organic" food (when was the last time you ate inorganic food?). > Hence the idea of the "objectivist audiophile" is not an oxymoron as I > believe many of us here personify... To love great sound. To be > insightful enough to admit that maybe something I own costs way more $$$ > than is needed because I WANT IT is just fine without claims of "golden > ears" or "price:sound quality" correlation. I think the term "audiophile" is too soiled by now. Probably "music lover" is closer to what you describe. "To try to judge the real from the false will always be hard. In this fast-growing art of 'high fidelity' the quackery will bear a solid gilt edge that will fool many people" - Paul W Klipsch, 1953 Julf's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=42050 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=103980 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Internet Blind Test: Linear vs. Minimum Digital Filters...
Mnyb wrote: > Like that's not happening thousands of times for every track in a modern > DAW :D Sssh! Don't tell them! :) "To try to judge the real from the false will always be hard. In this fast-growing art of 'high fidelity' the quackery will bear a solid gilt edge that will fool many people" - Paul W Klipsch, 1953 Julf's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=42050 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=103537 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Internet Blind Test: Linear vs. Minimum Digital Filters...
Mnyb wrote: > So the typical oversampling DAC with a filter thats not your ca 1986 > brickwall filter does it roughly rigth ? Indeed. > I not versed in the exact technical details . I'm certain that there is > some kind of group of good compromises that gets its done like the SoX > settings you use. Yes - I think that is the "way beyond more than good enough" point. > Hence the idea now that CPU power cost nought to do this stuff with > proper floating point math in software . Do we want to go there? I can already see it - "ah, but floating point is never totally precise, so there is always room for improvement" :) "To try to judge the real from the false will always be hard. In this fast-growing art of 'high fidelity' the quackery will bear a solid gilt edge that will fool many people" - Paul W Klipsch, 1953 Julf's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=42050 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=103537 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Question on equipment
Archimago wrote: > That's a good point Arny. Because the idea of valuing audio equipment as > an "investment" bestows upon them a non-utilitarian mystique. The > problem is that many refuse to acknowledge the main reasons why this > stuff is expensive - they look good, impresses friends and family, makes > a guy (usually) feel good that he has "reached the pinnacle" of > quality... All these are of course characteristics of luxury goods. None > of those qualities necessary imply that it -sounds any good-. We all know that people buy Ferraris for the reliability, great fuel economy and ample luggage space. :) > As much as we might be the "underdogs" in this battle among > self-professed "audiophiles" at this time, I do think it's still worth > "the fight"... I think in time, the "objectivist audiophile" will again > be the dominant viewpoint. It is worth the fight, but I am afraid "objectivist audiophile" will be the dominant viewpoint about the same time as we get rid of homeopathy, conspiracy theories, superstition and horoscopes... "To try to judge the real from the false will always be hard. In this fast-growing art of 'high fidelity' the quackery will bear a solid gilt edge that will fool many people" - Paul W Klipsch, 1953 Julf's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=42050 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=103980 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: Ars prepares to put �audiophile� Ethernet cables to the test
DJanGo wrote: > is your car audio system connected to the internet? No - and fortunately the cars are old enough not to be easy hacking vectors either :) > is there any connection to something like itunes or radiostream? No - all the music is coming from a local hard disk, so I am OK running something really old (I think it has a 2.2 linux kernel). > how many "not believers" are using their lms System to use it over the > internet (at least each two weeks there is question about how to) and no > one is using a vpn setup... My LMS system is on a separate, firewalled network. > How many pages in the wiki should be read and changed? Probably quite a lot. "To try to judge the real from the false will always be hard. In this fast-growing art of 'high fidelity' the quackery will bear a solid gilt edge that will fool many people" - Paul W Klipsch, 1953 Julf's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=42050 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=103978 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: Ars prepares to put �audiophile� Ethernet cables to the test
DJanGo wrote: > did you (or some others) think that you can change someomes will to buy > a audiophile usb cable if he wants it cause he believes of it and he is > president in the more money than brain club? Probably not. But we can perhaps help the ones who have a brain to make more informed decisions. > How long you think a (theoretical) open source software would live when > there is only one maintainer? > Can we do /change something in this case or in the other (stated above)? It depends on your definition of "live" and "maintain". My (linux-based) car stereo runs software that was last updated maybe 8 years ago, and still works just fine. I know of open source software in production use where the original author/maintainer hasn't updated it in almost 20 years... "To try to judge the real from the false will always be hard. In this fast-growing art of 'high fidelity' the quackery will bear a solid gilt edge that will fool many people" - Paul W Klipsch, 1953 Julf's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=42050 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=103978 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: Ars prepares to put �audiophile� Ethernet cables to the test
Wombat wrote: > Now that the test is over the only report i found is on another forum > here: > http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showthread.php?t=295995 > Not much info but the testers seem to have failed very quick. Unfortunately it seems they had a self-selecting test group, and saying "can't hear a difference" was an option, so the results are pretty useless. :) "To try to judge the real from the false will always be hard. In this fast-growing art of 'high fidelity' the quackery will bear a solid gilt edge that will fool many people" - Paul W Klipsch, 1953 Julf's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=42050 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=103978 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Question on equipment
jh901 wrote: > Engineers who actually design audio gear for a living and who have > decades of experience will run circles around Hydrogen worshipers So which ones have you talked with? "To try to judge the real from the false will always be hard. In this fast-growing art of 'high fidelity' the quackery will bear a solid gilt edge that will fool many people" - Paul W Klipsch, 1953 Julf's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=42050 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=103980 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: Singer-songwriter & musician Neil Young said 7/15/2015 he won�t allow streaming his m
ralphpnj wrote: > So when will the Pono store have the recording of your glorious singing > at 24bit/192kHz, of course, available for purchase and download? I think that is banned by the Geneva Convention... "To try to judge the real from the false will always be hard. In this fast-growing art of 'high fidelity' the quackery will bear a solid gilt edge that will fool many people" - Paul W Klipsch, 1953 Julf's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=42050 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=103982 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: Ars prepares to put �audiophile� Ethernet cables to the test
arnyk wrote: > Watching it is IMO time well spent. I agree. But so is watching the whole Penn & Teller "BS" series... "To try to judge the real from the false will always be hard. In this fast-growing art of 'high fidelity' the quackery will bear a solid gilt edge that will fool many people" - Paul W Klipsch, 1953 Julf's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=42050 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=103978 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Seeking suggestions for a new term/label
bonze wrote: > This might be a good time to remind everyone to remember to bring their > soldering iron guards to forthcoming meetings. To quote one of my t-shirts: "If it smells like chicken, you are holding the wrong end". "To try to judge the real from the false will always be hard. In this fast-growing art of 'high fidelity' the quackery will bear a solid gilt edge that will fool many people" - Paul W Klipsch, 1953 Julf's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=42050 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=103950 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Seeking suggestions for a new term/label
doctor_big wrote: > Go back and read my post again - at no point did I say that expensive > cables sound better. Only that I like having them in my system, and > that my system SEEMS to sound better. Just like wearing a nice suit > makes me feel more confident. The suit does nothing, but my perception > of the suit is what counts. I don't think any of us have any issues with that. What we do have an issue with is "I *know* X sounds better than Y, because I can hear the difference, and if ABX doesn't show any difference, it is ABX that is flawed". > But I can take my experience - a lifetime of listening to different > amplifiers and hearing substantial differences between them -- and end > up with the belief, or knowledge, or confidence, that often they sound > different from each other. That's not cognitive dissonance. It is - if there actually aren't any differences. It is just like our whole lifetime experience of seeing flat horizons is telling us earth is flat - despite measurements telling us it isn't so. > I say go for it - take an ABX test and try to pick out whether you can > hear the difference between 128kb MP3s and 16bit wav files. My guess is > that without some training you'll have difficulties. Indeed. > Then spend a day listening to MP3s and then another day listening to the > same music in wav format. Heck, do the second part blind! I'd wager > that you'll enjoy the wav files much more, even if you can't pick them > out in the ABX test. And that would be a valid test only if there was no other way for you to know which day it was mp3 files, and which day it was wav (or flac). Have you done that? "To try to judge the real from the false will always be hard. In this fast-growing art of 'high fidelity' the quackery will bear a solid gilt edge that will fool many people" - Paul W Klipsch, 1953 Julf's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=42050 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=103950 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Seeking suggestions for a new term/label
SBGK wrote: > what to call an anti audiophile? I think this is one of the most fundamental fallacies - so if you are against pseudoscience, you are automatically "anti-audiophile"? Does that make "audiophiles" a cult - "unless you buy into our faith system, you are against us"? > Anyone who has such an absolute claim on science just doesn't know how > much he doesn't know. A common trait amongst eejits. 'Distinguishing Science from Pseudoscience' (https://web2.ph.utexas.edu/~coker2/index.files/distinguish.htm). "To try to judge the real from the false will always be hard. In this fast-growing art of 'high fidelity' the quackery will bear a solid gilt edge that will fool many people" - Paul W Klipsch, 1953 Julf's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=42050 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=103950 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Question on equipment
philippe_44 wrote: > And frankly speaking, Swedish people are notably good in English while > French are notably bad - education There is also the issue of need/motivation - French is spoken by something like 100 million people as a first language, and another 200 million as a second language, while Swedish is spoken by 9 million and Finnish by 5 million people... :) "To try to judge the real from the false will always be hard. In this fast-growing art of 'high fidelity' the quackery will bear a solid gilt edge that will fool many people" - Paul W Klipsch, 1953 Julf's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=42050 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=103980 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Question on equipment
philippe_44 wrote: > Yes, thank you - not being English-native makes it extra-difficult > sometimes :( I can relate to that - as I might have stated before, English is my third language (the first and second were Swedish and Finnish), and I have pretty much lost all my German since learning Dutch (I have been living here in Amsterdam since 1997). It does help that my wife is American and teaches English (literature)... :) "To try to judge the real from the false will always be hard. In this fast-growing art of 'high fidelity' the quackery will bear a solid gilt edge that will fool many people" - Paul W Klipsch, 1953 Julf's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=42050 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=103980 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Question on equipment
doctor_big wrote: > Very true. However, tube gear seems to hold its value better than solid > state. Probably due to the fact that the bog-standard EL34 pentode > circuit matured 50+ years ago, and the value is all in the transformers. > A 20 year old tube amp is going to hold more of its original value than > is a 20 year old SS amp. Kinda like quartz watches vs automatics (the > parallel there holds to several levels). That is a good point - just like some classic cars are now going for way more than they were worth when new, while others can be had for peanuts - it is all a question of perception, desirability and "collectability". > Pretty much any cheap tube integrated is a Dynaco Stereo 70 at its core, > and ST70s sell for more today than when they were new. I guess the last big development in tube amps was the change to semiconductor rectifiers in the power supplies - but it is funny how some modern tube amps now have microprocessors (with hundreds of thousands of transistors) just to automatically adjust the bias and switch the inputs... "To try to judge the real from the false will always be hard. In this fast-growing art of 'high fidelity' the quackery will bear a solid gilt edge that will fool many people" - Paul W Klipsch, 1953 Julf's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=42050 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=103980 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: Singer-songwriter & musician Neil Young said 7/15/2015 he won�t allow streaming his m
RonM wrote: > Bear in mind he sometimes records in a phone booth and finds it > satisfactory. Well, some of us sing in the bathroom... "To try to judge the real from the false will always be hard. In this fast-growing art of 'high fidelity' the quackery will bear a solid gilt edge that will fool many people" - Paul W Klipsch, 1953 Julf's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=42050 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=103982 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Question on equipment
arnyk wrote: > That seems like a concession that if tubed equipment has audible > distortion, then should be ignored because it is not High Fidelity. No, I think what philippe is saying is "I don't care if it is high fidelity or not - if it is pleasing, it is pleasing". "To try to judge the real from the false will always be hard. In this fast-growing art of 'high fidelity' the quackery will bear a solid gilt edge that will fool many people" - Paul W Klipsch, 1953 Julf's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=42050 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=103980 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: Singer-songwriter & musician Neil Young said 7/15/2015 he won�t allow streaming his m
ralphpnj wrote: > Young is just being a real audiophile in that he is comparing the sound > of something from his (distant) past to the sound of something in the > present. But things *did* sound better back when I was young! "To try to judge the real from the false will always be hard. In this fast-growing art of 'high fidelity' the quackery will bear a solid gilt edge that will fool many people" - Paul W Klipsch, 1953 Julf's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=42050 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=103982 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Seeking suggestions for a new term/label
doctor_big wrote: > The neat part about this sighted test is that there's no way in hell > you'd have any sort of expectation bias for any result other than the > same null you'd get from that ABX test. That is not really how it works. We don't control all our biases, and we are usually not aware of them. "To try to judge the real from the false will always be hard. In this fast-growing art of 'high fidelity' the quackery will bear a solid gilt edge that will fool many people" - Paul W Klipsch, 1953 Julf's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=42050 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=103950 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: Singer-songwriter & musician Neil Young said 7/15/2015 he won�t allow streaming his m
ralphpnj wrote: > To be fair to Mr. Young on many, if not most, of the free music > streaming services the sound quality leaves a lot to be desired since > they then to lossy files encoded at 128kps or less and these files often > sound inferior to higher bit lossy files (192kps and above). And inferior to AM radio and 8-track tape? "To try to judge the real from the false will always be hard. In this fast-growing art of 'high fidelity' the quackery will bear a solid gilt edge that will fool many people" - Paul W Klipsch, 1953 Julf's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=42050 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=103982 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Seeking suggestions for a new term/label
Gandhi wrote: > "Snoilers"? A good one! "To try to judge the real from the false will always be hard. In this fast-growing art of 'high fidelity' the quackery will bear a solid gilt edge that will fool many people" - Paul W Klipsch, 1953 Julf's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=42050 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=103950 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: Singer-songwriter & musician Neil Young said 7/15/2015 he won�t allow streaming his m
arnyk wrote: > Singer-songwriter and musician Neil Young said on Wednesday he wonÂt > allow his music to be streamed any more, not because of disputes over > royalties, but rather over poor sound quality. While at the same time being totally OK with being played over vinyl, FM radio and cassette, I assume... "To try to judge the real from the false will always be hard. In this fast-growing art of 'high fidelity' the quackery will bear a solid gilt edge that will fool many people" - Paul W Klipsch, 1953 Julf's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=42050 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=103982 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Question on equipment
philippe_44 wrote: > Budget I don't have a precise idea, I just don't want to go ridiculously > high. Room is about 40m2 and listen to classical jazz I would say Archimago's $1000 for the amp is probably near the sweet spot. Sounds like you don't need super-deep bass or "goes to 11" volume levels. Is the reason to go for a tube amp a desire to experience a retro feeling - in that case, i would go for something like the smaller Tannoy dual concentrics - if not, I agree with the KEF LS50 recommendation. "To try to judge the real from the false will always be hard. In this fast-growing art of 'high fidelity' the quackery will bear a solid gilt edge that will fool many people" - Paul W Klipsch, 1953 Julf's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=42050 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=103980 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Question on equipment
arnyk wrote: > Why waste a set of good speakers on a tubed amp? Subjective preference? "To try to judge the real from the false will always be hard. In this fast-growing art of 'high fidelity' the quackery will bear a solid gilt edge that will fool many people" - Paul W Klipsch, 1953 Julf's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=42050 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=103980 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Question on equipment
philippe_44 wrote: > In the audiophile forum of LMS, where I hope people are usually > reasonnable, what would be your advice for a good pair of speakers and a > tube amplifier (I've always wanted to try one). Nothing extra fancy, but > a "reasonnable" budget. Please no fights here, my question is candide, > no hidden intention to create another flame war. That's a rather open-ended question :) What is your budget? How big is you room? What do you usually listen to? With a tube amp, you want reasonably sensitive speakers. My current tube amp is an old Sonic Frontiers Assemblage kit, but I'm afraid they aren't available any more :( "To try to judge the real from the false will always be hard. In this fast-growing art of 'high fidelity' the quackery will bear a solid gilt edge that will fool many people" - Paul W Klipsch, 1953 Julf's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=42050 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=103980 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: Ars prepares to put �audiophile� Ethernet cables to the test
Wirrunna wrote: > Should be interesting. But as Lee Hutchinson writes, "Realistically, we also know that this test wonÂt sway anyoneÂif for no other reason than that audiophiles tend to discount the results of blind listening tests (especially A/B/X tests like weÂre planning on conducting)." "To try to judge the real from the false will always be hard. In this fast-growing art of 'high fidelity' the quackery will bear a solid gilt edge that will fool many people" - Paul W Klipsch, 1953 Julf's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=42050 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=103978 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Seeking suggestions for a new term/label
Archimago wrote: > SBGK: Why do you continue to ignore my questions? I guess for the same reason he carefully avoids answering my questions as well... "To try to judge the real from the false will always be hard. In this fast-growing art of 'high fidelity' the quackery will bear a solid gilt edge that will fool many people" - Paul W Klipsch, 1953 Julf's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=42050 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=103950 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Seeking suggestions for a new term/label
18385 +---+ |Filename: Fonzie_jumps_the_shark.PNG | |Download: http://forums.slimdevices.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=18385| +---+ "To try to judge the real from the false will always be hard. In this fast-growing art of 'high fidelity' the quackery will bear a solid gilt edge that will fool many people" - Paul W Klipsch, 1953 Julf's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=42050 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=103950 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Seeking suggestions for a new term/label
toby10 wrote: > For which he and his completely bogus un-scientific study was > resoundingly refuted and discredited. Exactly. Refuted and discredited based on facts and evidence - not rhetoric, personal attacks and subjective anecdotes. "To try to judge the real from the false will always be hard. In this fast-growing art of 'high fidelity' the quackery will bear a solid gilt edge that will fool many people" - Paul W Klipsch, 1953 Julf's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=42050 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=103950 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Seeking suggestions for a new term/label
doctor_big wrote: > I've seen the "tests" you perform where you set up two utterly different > systems - one lo-fi, one upper-mid-fi, and abx them behind a screen. You > trot out a bunch of audiophiles who are utterly wamboozled and unable to > differentiate which one is X. Not sure what test you are referring to. > So, I am quite convinced by my own experience that ABX is not a valid > test for subtle differences in audio. JH901 or whatever his name is, is > trying to set up an ABX test using cables. Without even knowing the > scenario in detail, I do know that if he sets the test up correctly he's > going to fail miserably. Does that mean there's no difference? I > really don't know. The problem is that we have numerous examples where measurements show there are no differences, but people hear differences - as long as it is a sighted test. As soon as you remove that one component (being able to know which system is which), the differences disappear. At the same time, perceptional research has shown that our preconceived notions of what we should hear actually makes us hear exactly what we expect to hear - even if there is no actual difference. So what is the reasonable conclusion? That there is some magical property in our audio systems that can't be measured, and can't be heard in double-blind (not just ABX) tests? > I hear differences in cables, but I can't say for sure whether it's > expectation bias or a real difference that flies under the ABX radar. I > suspect the latter, but have no way of proving it. It would not be impossible to prove. There are many other ways to do double-blind tests - ABX is not the only method. Have you heard of MUSHRA (MUltiple Stimuli with Hidden Reference and Anchor)? Do you think people like the International Telecommunication Union are wrong in specifying double-blind as their standard test method? > Just because you have a background in science doesn't mean you aren't > agenda driven or biased. Wakefield was a scientist, right? Remember > him? The autism/MMR guy? A background in science doesn't grant you a > free pass. Indeed. No background, degree or reputation gives anyone a free pass. That is one of the great things about science - it's not about who you are or what your motivation is - it is about the factual evidence you present. You are right in that I definitely have an agenda - I passionately hate pseudoscience, and believe audio is based on sound engineering principles, not voodoo. "To try to judge the real from the false will always be hard. In this fast-growing art of 'high fidelity' the quackery will bear a solid gilt edge that will fool many people" - Paul W Klipsch, 1953 Julf's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=42050 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=103950 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Seeking suggestions for a new term/label
SBGK wrote: > You guys have lost the plot, why are you attacking someone just because > they have a different viewpoint ? I think you might want to go back and look at the messages, and see who it is who attacks people who disagree with them. Pointing out factually false statements is not the same as attacking someone. "To try to judge the real from the false will always be hard. In this fast-growing art of 'high fidelity' the quackery will bear a solid gilt edge that will fool many people" - Paul W Klipsch, 1953 Julf's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=42050 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=103950 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Seeking suggestions for a new term/label
jkeny wrote: > And Julf is still doing well on the troll table - unless Arny turns up > soon, I can see Julf's name being engraved on the Troll Trophy. And I guess the voting/tabulating is actually for real on a certain Irish forum... :) I hope you, sbgk and a couple of others realize it is readable and searchable by anybody, not just the members... "To try to judge the real from the false will always be hard. In this fast-growing art of 'high fidelity' the quackery will bear a solid gilt edge that will fool many people" - Paul W Klipsch, 1953 Julf's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=42050 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=103950 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Seeking suggestions for a new term/label
jkeny wrote: > I'm outta here. I guess that proved to be as true as all your other claims. And not for the first time... "To try to judge the real from the false will always be hard. In this fast-growing art of 'high fidelity' the quackery will bear a solid gilt edge that will fool many people" - Paul W Klipsch, 1953 Julf's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=42050 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=103950 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Seeking suggestions for a new term/label
doctor_big wrote: > A point - I like nice, thick, well-made cables, ones that cost a lot of > money (which I can afford). I liken it to putting proper P0 tires on my > Maserati. Would General tires from Green and Ross do just as well for > way less money? Probably. Would I notice a difference? Probably not. > But I'm not gonna do it. I would KNOW they're sub-par for the car. > Same with my stereo. I won't put zip cord between my tube mono amp and > my $30k speakers. Does the cable I have in there now sound better than > zip cord? Seems to me like it does. Could I pick it out in an ABX > test? No goddamn way - I'm not stupid. But still, I think it sounds > best with these here high-end cables, so I'm going to leave them in. It > works for me. Right. So you acknowledge you are making an emotional, non-rational choice. We all do that. Do I own the most sensible car for me? Hell, no. Do I argue it is? No. > Now, if I were to post in the General forum about how my thick, > penis-enlarging cables sound better than zip cord - have at it. Crucify > me. I'd deserve it. But if I want to talk about getting rid of > upper-midrange glare by changing cables down here in the audiophile > basement, why should I have to deal with a gang of petty goons calling > me an idiot? In both forums, it would be totally OK to state "I know there is no rational reason to prefer a thick cable, but I feel better with a cable as thick as a python that just ate an aardvark". Should the audiophile forum be labelled "no rules of physics or rational thinking apply"? "To try to judge the real from the false will always be hard. In this fast-growing art of 'high fidelity' the quackery will bear a solid gilt edge that will fool many people" - Paul W Klipsch, 1953 Julf's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=42050 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=103950 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Seeking suggestions for a new term/label
jkeny wrote: > I'm still trying to organise the test but not on this forum - as this > section is unmoderated & populated by trolls - an example being the > immediately posted bullshit from ralphpnj - complete waste of time So I guess that means " b) want to restrict the distribution of the results". I guess your preference would be a certain obscure Irish hifi forum? :) "To try to judge the real from the false will always be hard. In this fast-growing art of 'high fidelity' the quackery will bear a solid gilt edge that will fool many people" - Paul W Klipsch, 1953 Julf's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=42050 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=103950 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Seeking suggestions for a new term/label
doctor_big wrote: > For crying out loud, why is YOUR so-called objective approach the right > one? who made you the arbiter of science? Nobody. Feel free to refute any of his claims based on factual evidence. "To try to judge the real from the false will always be hard. In this fast-growing art of 'high fidelity' the quackery will bear a solid gilt edge that will fool many people" - Paul W Klipsch, 1953 Julf's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=42050 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=103950 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Seeking suggestions for a new term/label
doctor_big wrote: > Further, you (and this could be the royal -you-) harp on about > established science, as if you're a -scientist!- Because some of us are. Even more of us are engineers. Engineering is applied science - that is what audio is. > But you take this one little corner - ABX etc - and trot it out as if > it's the final, proven, de facto physical law that proves - -proves- I > say - that there is no difference between a 90's era CD player and state > of the art digital from the present day (or any other such -no > difference- mantra - take your pick). A real scientist - someone who's > actually interested in getting to the truth rather than furthering an > agenda - would look at the situation and say "well, they swear that > they're hearing a difference, and ABX doesn't reveal it. Let's try > something else." But that is exactly what "subjectivists" seem to miss - we have done exactly that. There are pretty well understood and verified scientific explanations as to why people hear a difference, but the science is perceptional science and psychology. > But you blather on about pseudoscience all the while ignoring true > scientific method. "The scientific method is an ongoing process, which usually begins with observations about the natural world. Human beings are naturally inquisitive, so they often come up with questions about things they see or hear and often develop ideas (hypotheses) about why things are the way they are. The best hypotheses lead to predictions that can be tested in various ways, including making further observations about nature. In general, the strongest tests of hypotheses come from carefully controlled and replicated experiments that gather empirical data. Depending on how well the tests match the predictions, the original hypothesis may require refinement, alteration, expansion or even rejection. If a particular hypothesis becomes very well supported a general theory may be developed. Although procedures vary from one field of inquiry to another, identifiable features are frequently shared in common between them. The overall process of the scientific method involves making conjectures (hypotheses), deriving predictions from them as logical consequences, and then carrying out experiments based on those predictions. A hypothesis is a conjecture, based on knowledge obtained while formulating the question. The hypothesis might be very specific or it might be broad. Scientists then test hypotheses by conducting experiments. Under modern interpretations, a scientific hypothesis must be falsifiable, implying that it is possible to identify a possible outcome of an experiment that conflicts with predictions deduced from the hypothesis; otherwise, the hypothesis cannot be meaningfully tested. The purpose of an experiment is to determine whether observations agree with or conflict with the predictions derived from a hypothesis.[8] Experiments can take place in a college lab, on a kitchen table, at CERN's Large Hadron Collider, at the bottom of an ocean, on Mars, and so on." So what specific parts are we ignoring? "To try to judge the real from the false will always be hard. In this fast-growing art of 'high fidelity' the quackery will bear a solid gilt edge that will fool many people" - Paul W Klipsch, 1953 Julf's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=42050 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=103950 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Seeking suggestions for a new term/label
doctor_big wrote: > To follow up with your analogy regarding food. Say you spend $500 on a > hand-made, forged Japanese chef's knife. You buy high-end waterstones > to polish and refine the edge, which you get down to one molecule and it > glows blue when Orcs are around. You make a meal with this knife, and > -- as you said -- your pride in what you did makes it taste better. > Wouldn't it suck to post this pride in your work on a forum and have a > bunch of cheerless wankers jump all over you saying you wasted your > money and that a $50 Wusthorf is as good? I don't think we have an issue with that - what we have an issue with is someone who sells knives and his friend who has come up with a badly working sharpening stone walking into a cooking forum claiming cutlery makes a major difference to the taste of food, and how the usual way of tasting food must be flawed because it doesn't show the difference. "To try to judge the real from the false will always be hard. In this fast-growing art of 'high fidelity' the quackery will bear a solid gilt edge that will fool many people" - Paul W Klipsch, 1953 Julf's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=42050 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=103950 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Seeking suggestions for a new term/label
jkeny wrote: > I'll PM Archimago about the Regen test - it makes no sense for this to > be where the details of that test & the results are published as it will > only attract more troll infestation & shit - not worth bothering with or > taking up any time on. Does that mean that you a) are backing out of the test, or b) want to restrict the distribution of the results? "To try to judge the real from the false will always be hard. In this fast-growing art of 'high fidelity' the quackery will bear a solid gilt edge that will fool many people" - Paul W Klipsch, 1953 Julf's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=42050 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=103950 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
