Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Confused by the digital formats
I think, you guys lost the OP. If at all OP is still reading, my suspects are 1) amp 2) SB Touch. Just swap out with a more high-powered amp and see the speakers "open up". Currently, I know my magnepans on the wall are not being driven well by Panasonic receiver. The sound is usually flat in this case. The DAC would be just nuances, noise/haze etc. SoftwireEngineer's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=7000 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=98591 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] MEASUREMENTS: Some Squeezebox numbers to consider...
garym wrote: > Archimago has done a lot of this quite nicely (option b). So have > others (plenty of threads at hydrogenaudio.org that discuss, provide > references to technical peer-reviewed papers, etc.). None of this > makes a bit of difference to the audiophools who refuse to believe. > They instead try to come up with twisted arguments as to why > double-blind tests are not valid when it comes to audio or simply > declare that one's system is not revealing enough to hear the > (unmeasurable) benefits from better USB cables or the jitter reduction, > etc. Actually, what Archimago is doing is awesome. First time, we have comparative datapoints. The Dunn tests are my favorite and the moment he started doing it, it was serious game. Now we need to extend this comparison methodology to actual blind tests, say in a local audio society setting. I very much would like to participate in one, if it is in the SF Bay Area. (note, for example, he does show some differences between the async and adaptive USB, this should attract quite a few audiophiles who are 'on the wall' as well). SoftwireEngineer's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=7000 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=97950 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] MEASUREMENTS: Some Squeezebox numbers to consider...
Jeff52 wrote: > Like you I am no expert but do understand basic science and have some > ability to detect BS. :) For some reason audio, as opposed to most other > similar things, remains firmly "grounded" in subjectivity even when the > subjective opinions are obviously without any scientific basis. I got a > kick out of Archimago's comment on his blog "...feel free to drop me a > note -if there's good data or controlled tests- to suggest USB cables > make a significant difference contrary to these findings." Apparently he > is unwilling to consider that the majority of audiophiles can hear a > difference between the cables. Here is my take on this - if we consider ourselves as part of the scientific/objective community - a) If we are 100% sure that power cables, interconnects, speaker cables and usb cables etc do not make a difference and that audiophiles are deluding themselves. We just have to state that and ignore them all. b) If at all we are not 100% sure - we can investigate ourselves, specify the situations where they do make a difference, either system or quantitative level. We can also come up with a metric with gives an idea of the sound quality or a particular attribute of that sound quality. When there are no established scientific metrics that correlate with sound quality, quackery thrives. SoftwireEngineer's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=7000 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=97950 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] MEASUREMENTS: Some Squeezebox numbers to consider...
Archimago wrote: > ... BUT I can say that the $50 CM6631A has 16-bit J-Test jitter > measurements on par with the excellent Oppo BDP-105; and that's a FACT, > not some subjectivist opinion. Sounds good, but all you guys have more pricey equipment than mine :-) Sometimes I feel, you, Mynb, ralph and others are colluding to make sure only you guys have good sounding equipment and others languish is low-price mid-fi hell :-) SoftwireEngineer's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=7000 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=97950 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] MEASUREMENTS: Some Squeezebox numbers to consider...
garym wrote: > I'm always relaxed. I'm just a bit worried that there are folks running > around that are trained as engineers, doing programming for companies > that may find its way into products and services I rely on (banking, > utilities, etc), and these same engineers may believe in magic and > voodoo in spite of their training. ;-) Valid concern :-) Dont worry my QA guys are your kind. They are always trying to break my code. SoftwireEngineer's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=7000 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=97950 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] MEASUREMENTS: Some Squeezebox numbers to consider...
garym wrote: > What drugs are you taking. I want some. Or you have a really bad > system. No other explanation. Gary, relax. This is all fun. My drugs are not real.. it is all in my mind. If you want you can call it - Maya :-) SoftwireEngineer's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=7000 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=97950 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] MEASUREMENTS: Some Squeezebox numbers to consider...
Mnyb wrote: > Not quite like that the DAC's may offcourse be different but anything > goes as a transport to the DAC given its async USB2 ? > > ... . Agree, yes theoretically (for that matter Touch is also an asynch transport). But there are reviews of various async usb transports in various forums. Actually, one person has compared 10-15 transport and the current kind of the hill is either the Audiophilleo or the Berkeley Audio Design Alpha. You can never see these in the used market yet. Very hot. But with my technical background, I dont have the heart to pay $1K or above for just a converter. I might if it shows up in the used market so see what the fuss is all about and then put it back on audiogon. SoftwireEngineer's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=7000 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=97950 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Magico S1
garym wrote: > It used to almost be that way here in US. I went to state university as > undergrad and my tuition cost was about $200 a semester. Almost free. > But public universities have gone from state supported to state assisted > to state located (ie in name only). Legislators have become > anti-education. They see universities as elitist places that study > science and make up climate change data and create liberals. They prefer > voters that think cavemen rode dinosaurs. Of course many universities > are more concerned with sports and building beautful dorms that rival > luxury condos. Plenty of blame to go around. Sorry for the off topic > rant... Good to know the history in the US. I went to school in India. Inspite of the almost free university education, my parents could not afford the dorm fees. Scholarships helped me on this front. I think the education system in the US needs to be seriously revisited to compete with state-sponsored education in India, China etc. SoftwireEngineer's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=7000 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=98249 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Magico S1
Mnyb wrote: > The tact may as well have other issues to . Wonder if not most normal > DAC by today's standard have this buffering regardless of price . Price > vs performance is not connected in high end and rather flat in small > signal electronics and IMO it actually gets worse in the ultra high end > you get " exotic " designs to put it nicely that performs worse than > Chinese supermarket DVD players for 40$ > > The bufferings is not what's expensive in meridian it's merely a natural > consequence of thier design . > > You get 30s buffer in a Touch that's more than in my meridian system. > > One thing M has done for the quite ludicrous amount of $$$ I paid is > true upgradable products my ht processor is almost 10 years old ! :) > > I did hesitate for years before committing that cash I recon that the m > systems cost 5-10 times as much as it "should" if it had mass-market > appeal and been made in larger series , now it's basically hand built in > great Britain by people with decent pay . > > And actually it was the tech nerd in my that bought it ,it is done " the > rigth way " in absolute performance I could done better in hindsight . > > But back in 1998-2003 the meridian systems was almost the only DVD Audio > kit that transported 6ch 24/96 digitally to the processor ? > They have a proprietary drm system that allowed them do this . > Almost all other DVDA and SACD stuff had 6ch analog out ? That's pretty > much broken IMHO ? If want to do some DRC and speaker management , > youmhadmto fudge with some of it in the player and some mysterius 6ch > analog in on some amps ? Broken by design ? > > The speakers are not that old ( I bought the dealers demo kit otherwise > I could not afford it ) > > And I'm quite carefree at the moment no one but myself to tend too, > otherwise ther would be no m system for me . Actually, the buffering I am talking about in Meridian is different than the 30s buffer in Touch. Meridian buffers SPDIF data and reclocks it out. Touch is using network connection and it always generates its own clock. Meridian looks like are pioneers in this digital audio business. They were architecturally/technologically way ahead. I guess this is what added up to their cost. They had to implement their own hardware. Yes, currently the SPDIF buffering is common in a few hundred dollar DACs sold on ebay from China. The TACT folks were also not bad. They have digital crossovers and their amps can be daisy chained. Since they were into room correction, I think, they do not see jitter as having that much of an impact in the sound. Anyways, I just want to squeeze the maximum out of my current setup (a quality SPDIF stream), before I move to one of those current DACs and analog amps. SoftwireEngineer's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=7000 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=98249 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Magico S1
Mnyb wrote: > Yea and preoccupation with pseudoscience like audiophilia is "harmless" > :/ run the decision to buy more 5000$ cables truogh your wife and kids > and see what they think . > > "College fund" , luckily we don't have that where I live , anyone can go > to university if their grades are good enough no fee and you can get a > government sponsored loan to cover the living expenses while you study > . > By sponsored I mean that the interst rate is very real and a part of it > is subsidised but you have to submit passed grades to secure your loan > ie prove that you actually study something , the loafing around and > party and do nothing is still for the rich kids . > > I had to party and study , sleep ? You can do,that when you die :) Mynb, you are the one who has spent so much cash on Meridian stuff, which buffers the bits everywhere (and so the high price). No wonder you are oblivious of all digital issues. I run digital straight into a TACT amp which I sadly dont think has good buffering or even galvanic isolation for the price I paid - $1400 for it used. List was $3K-5K. SoftwireEngineer's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=7000 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=98249 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] MEASUREMENTS: Some Squeezebox numbers to consider...
Archimago wrote: > Hey guys, > Another blog post up for this week... Measured some of my laptops! > Native built-in DAC, adaptive USB1 DAC, asynchronous CM6631 USB-SPDIF. > > Bottom line: No voodoo. Computer audio can be complicated but so long as > the software player & drivers are bit-perfect, and you don't have noise > polluting the DAC output... Then you're good. > > http://archimago.blogspot.ca/2013/04/measurements-laptop-audio-survey-apple.html Good one. Asynchronous USB is a good development. But I doubt all asynch DACs will sound the same. You or others might disagree. SoftwireEngineer's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=7000 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=97950 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] MEASUREMENTS: Some Squeezebox numbers to consider...
Archimago wrote: > So lets consider the experiment for a minute and what one would imagine > happening... > > I assume you believe jitter will ebb and flow with the irregular data > rate at <40%? > > If so, then you believe that if I use the J-Test to graph it out, I > would see these jitter sidebands showing up here and there over time at > amounts and amplitudes higher than say a wired connection? Well, never mind. Thanks though. SoftwireEngineer's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=7000 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=97950 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] MEASUREMENTS: Some Squeezebox numbers to consider...
Mnyb wrote: > PS if you want to hear the buffer (or rather not ) it's easy with a > wired player just pull out the cable . > > Then add the fact the data in the buffer would bee the same even if it > was filled via wifi . > > the juggle the odds that such differences being a real electro acoustic > effect or something playing with our perception . > > One of these system are simple and designed the other extremely complex > and not designed which is more likely to give you wierd experiences :) Exactly, I agree with you. Theoretically. But I guess there might be implementation issues, say for eg, the wifi chip being close to the clock etc. I did pull out the ethernet cable and saw the buffering. But I could swear there is quite a difference. The sound is much more relaxed and less harsh. SoftwireEngineer's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=7000 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=97950 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Magico S1
Gary, no problem. I would like to characterize my obsession with jitter as a 'preoccupation' or pure intellectual curiosity :-) Just like Quad, I need to put myself through some blind testing. Except my wife would think, it is a weird behavior for a middle-aged family man, who should be focussing on the kid's college fund otherwise :-). SoftwireEngineer's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=7000 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=98249 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Magico S1
darrenyeats wrote: > I've had similar experiences. > Darren > > > Sent from my Nexus 10 using Tapatalk HD Sad and Funny at the same time. One of the psychological things that might be happening is - the sound/quality is always there. But we notice them only after we upgrade something :-) Leaving my possible ignorance/obsession with jitter aside, or my IQ, main thing I was trying to figure out is how to evaluate sound when a blind test is not possible. SoftwireEngineer's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=7000 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=98249 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Magico S1
ralphpnj wrote: > ... > Can someone, anyone please explain what it is about digital audio data > that gives it this totally unique property. This is well-known . The clock is also derived from the SPDIF interface. Ethernet cables and USB cables in async mode will not cause any problems, unless the overall throughput is being affected which is causing some timing/CPU issues on the playing computer/device. I am still listening to you guys. My 'observation' could all be in my head. But note that, even though people here have suggested the best way to use the Touch is over a wired connection, I never bothered because if it is playing without hiccups it should be good enough. Let me ask, if you go to somebody else's place, can you tell that system is better or worse than yours ? If something is better than yours, what was different in it ? SoftwireEngineer's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=7000 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=98249 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Magico S1
ralphpnj wrote: > P... dare I say it, jitter. Once you get past a certain point it's just > over designed and over built. Right, I guess I am having trouble finding that "certain point" :-) Sorry, as always I find myself as the 'middle-of-the-road' say compared to you and jh ... I am now listening to my Touch in a wired setup.. (wifi disabled) the extender reporting 65% wifi connectivity and 96khz/24bit playing without any hiccups.. normal res sounds better. Let me describe the sound - things are quieter, each instruments sounds separate..I am able to listen to at a lower volume and still hear all the instruments. I did not "expect" this change before going in I put the extender mainly for the sake of my blu-ray player streaming Netflix. Well, all this could be my imagination. But I am seriously thinking jitter is probably not necessarily the sidebands way down in db. Some other aspect of it might be at play.. SoftwireEngineer's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=7000 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=98249 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] MEASUREMENTS: Some Squeezebox numbers to consider...
Archimago wrote: > On Page 7 where I measured the Touch, WiFi strength was around 70%. > Since I did all the Touch measurements at the same location in my home, > they'd all be around that value. > > If the WiFi is unreliable, re-buffering can surely be an issue and would > lead to audible problems. However, it would no be accurate to call this > "jitter" per se since that would not be the "picosecond" imperfections > in data clocking. :-) right. I should know .. I write streaming code . But is it possible for you to measure jitter when the wifi is < 40% ? it'd still play nicely but I want to see whether there is any change in the jitter spec. Really, appreciate that and thanks so much . SoftwireEngineer's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=7000 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=97950 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] MEASUREMENTS: Some Squeezebox numbers to consider...
@Archimago - when you did the jitter test for wired/wireless, do you remember or have noted the signal strength. Looks like anything less than 50% seems not good for jitter. I think I can even hear it, but not so sure. I just added a repeater and connected the Touch wired through it and I can now play 96khz/24bit without any interruption (with decoding on the server). I just need to save start saving up for the $3K ethernet cable :-) SoftwireEngineer's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=7000 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=97950 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Differences between digital sources
darrenyeats wrote: > Measurements have been posted on this forum proving different transports > have different THD+N at the outputs of outboard DACs, even with optical > SPDIF. > > There is nothing magical going on. The differences must be down to > jitter, RFI or power supply noise. > > But the differences disappeared completely when balanced outputs were > used ... indicating that differences were down to RFI from the > transports or their power supplies being picked up by single ended > interconnects. > Darren > > Sent from my Nexus 10 using Tapatalk HD Archimago has done some great work on testing for differences in jitter. Now all we need is a get together and do some blind testing whenever there is even a slight difference in jitter. SoftwireEngineer's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=7000 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=98374 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Differences between digital sources
Quad wrote: > It's hard to describe the difference in words. I will necessarily sound > like always But I'll give it a try. > > In favor of the Touch: > - PC sounds somehow thinner > - Touch is somehow warmer > > In favor of the PC: > - sounds more effortless > - harsh recording passages have less ringing (piano, violin) > - less fatiguing > > My hardware is an Intel HD 3000 with HDMI out (integrated into Sandy > Bridge processor). And as far as I can remember WASAPI is the > bit-perfect Windows alternative to ASIO (Steinberg). I get the same > results if connected through USB and WASAPI. There is no processing > involved, neither on LMS nor on foobar. The M51 is supposed to sound best over HDMI. I also understand (not very sure) that HDMI is a sort of asynch/packet protocol so the clock is generated in the M51 versus derived from the SPDIF over coax. If you had taken care of other points raised my forum members and you are listening to the same exact bit stream over both interfaces, then the only culprit is the j demon. Maybe you should also try some blind testing with a crappy toslink/coax vs good coax, to establish that you can hear jitter differences. My wife used to help me with these things when I was newly married but not anymore :-) SoftwireEngineer's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=7000 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=98374 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] MEASUREMENTS: Some Squeezebox numbers to consider...
Mnyb wrote: > Buts it's more expensive and comes in shiny aluminium so it must > therefore be better ! > > Crackpot review ,yes all the boxes ticked . > > Usually digital disc transports are not very "worth the money" sometimes > it is usually the manufacturer taking their most expensive cd player and > rips out 2/3 of the innards and double the price ,oh and they migth add > an AES/EBU port for you to get all varm and fuzzy about . Is it showing > " healty disregard for the price/cost" that impresses some even on this > forum. > > This NAD is actually better than some as it adds streaming , so it's not > as useless as a pure disc transport and is probably not a bad product > but 10 times to expensive in proportion to performance . > Performance is practically the same for all well designed transports so > a good piont to compare is the Touch what it costed and what other > features you got . > > Separate transport is the component where you get absolutely least for > the money in hifi ( I don't count the cables as components ). But the > clientele for the product category is endlessly fascinated by paying > these high prices . > In general audiophiles gets the components they deserve ;) > > Wonder why NAd did not throw in thier DAC in the box ? Are they not > doing a very good DAC at the moment , this would have turned the table > to make the package much more attractive ? > > Right.. I think NAD and other companies try to recoup any development cost upfront by reflecting it in the price right away. Slimdevices/squeezebox was a startup and maybe it was priced in the hope of reaching higher volumes. Re: adding DAC to the box. It is the audiophiles who are helping these companies out to make cool revenues. They want to buy everything as separate components and add pricey power cords, interconnects, shelf etc. I guess once you establish some sort of a name in the audiophile business life must be really cool. When I was younger I guess I too was spending too much on these. Now that I am a parent faced with upcoming college fees for three children I am beginning to question the reasonableness of all this .. SoftwireEngineer's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=7000 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=97950 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] MEASUREMENTS: Some Squeezebox numbers to consider...
Note, the comparison with Touch - http://www.the-ear.net/review-hardware/nad-m50-m52-streamer-server SoftwireEngineer's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=7000 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=97950 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Magico S1
ralphpnj wrote: > Thank you Darren and Mnyb for those excellent responses. .. +1 ..yes very good ..much appreciated SoftwireEngineer's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=7000 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=98249 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Differences between digital sources
garym wrote: > ...But in my day job I'm mostly doing scientific method-based research > and I just can't measure "magic" or "air" in music... I have some test tracks (Chesky, I think) which have recordings of instruments at different distances from the mic. It also has instruments at different height relative to the mic. I or in my system I dont think I can notice the height very well. But the distance is very discernible if the distance is more than 5-10 ft(vague memory). So something like this could help evaluate the "room" in the original post. "Air" I think is pretty much decay. We can probably measure the decay trail too. But I doubt in dbs it will be much significant. Re: FLAC vs 320Kbps. I have not done much testing but Spotify is easily discernible for me from my original FLAC tracks. The music sounds flat (no depth) and I think there is also some sort of "haze" or vagueness to the sound. My FLACs when the system is at its best (late night/quiet etc) sounds very 'crisp'. SoftwireEngineer's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=7000 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=98374 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Differences between digital sources
Ok, this is a better way of saying than jumping the gun and deciding I need a transport with less jitter (mea culpa :-) ) . Inspired by Archimago, I threw away the TT tweak on my Touch, but later I went back to it, because I felt I was missing the resolution I had earlier. I also knew that Archimago, measured the jitter differences to be very less or insignificant. Now, I am wondering whether some sort of noise creeps into the DACs/Amps from the transport (no pulse transformer/galvanic isolation) ??? (in that context, a shielded power cord to the touch linear power supply seemed to reduce some haze and/or increase resolution). Another observation or illusion (?), if I unplug all the power cords, clean the prongs with just a clean paper towel and plug it in, the system sounds very detailed. I check for this with very low volume listening. What could be happening ? SoftwireEngineer's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=7000 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=98374 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] MEASUREMENTS: Some Squeezebox numbers to consider...
Looks like the jitter sidebands are way below 100db in most of the DACs. Does that mean we don't hear jitter at that level or is it some other distortion/parameters in the DAC that is responsible for the sound other than jitter ? (there are examples of DAC with high jitter but considered good sounding). Confusing .. SoftwireEngineer's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=7000 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=97950 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Amazing DIY speakers. wow.
Awesome.. He is a pro. More than his carpentary skills, the last comment in the thread is interesting. He basically recreated a BW802 by sleuthing around !!! SoftwireEngineer's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=7000 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=98315 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Magico S1
@Mynb - very good post @darrenyeats - why do you think you will not enjoy your music without a 'flavour' or 'flavor' added by the components ? If you like some band/genre you should be able to enjoy it recreated faithfully in your system.I find for the kind of music, I like, the more clarity and full-range the music recreation is, the better I like it. SoftwireEngineer's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=7000 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=98249 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Magico S1
Daverz wrote: > It's interesting how these sorts of threads fill up with conjectures > about gear that people have limited experienced with. > > There really isn't one tube sound. Tube amps can sound vastly different > depending on the design. Not all are syrupy or romantic sounding with > flabby bass, the knock on many old designs. > > Without the tubes visible, I doubt most people could tell that my Rogue > M-180s were a tube design by just listening. They do not have a > stereotypical tube character (though I could probably tweak that with a > different choice of power tubes). Well..not a conjecture.. probably a generalization based on my limited experience (in stores and my friends' systems). Interesting review of M-180 on Stereophile. That even Stereophile should compare the M-180 sound to the sound of a solid state amplifier is telling of the 'typical' sound of tube designs. SoftwireEngineer's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=7000 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=98249 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Magico S1
@Darren - it depends on your type of favorite music (Ella or Louis Armstrong would sound wonderful). I don't think large ensemble classical or rock lends itself well to tubes. Basically, if there is not many instruments/voices and if dynamics is not a major requirement then it would sound good with tubes. I think most people with tubes know they are doing it for the 'flavor'. I have seen people with both solid and tube setups and they play different genres in them. Some people like tube headphone amplifiers. After I got into digital amplification (Panasonic, TACT ) I found the absolute transparency and dynamics/power (especially in TACT) is difficult to move away from for me. It is fun also as the music character changes completely from recording to recording. SoftwireEngineer's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=7000 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=98249 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Magico S1
darrenyeats wrote: > Hold on chaps! > > If you subscribe to "high fidelity is fidelity to the recording" then I > agree with your valve skepticism. > > If you subscribe to "high fidelity is getting my favourite recordings to > sound reminiscent of real life" then valves have their place! I have > experienced them doing a great job of opening up certain kinds of older > recordings. In this sense they can be quite "musical", in my > experience. > > Personally I veer to the former view but I don't think there is a right > and wrong about it. I think valve lovers are on very shaky ground to > claim their equipment is better in any objective sense. But it might be > better in a subjective sense for their system and their favourite > recordings, I think. > Darren Once when I walked into a high-end audio store around Kitchener-Waterloo, Canada I was completely captivated by the sound of some pricey tube equipment driving some expensive speakers. At that I could only buy the recording, but later on while investigating tubes, even though they sound good, they sound the same on all the recordings !!! Probably good for my Indian classical or Jazz, but not for my classic rock or classical collection. After a while, it is actually a 'version of reality' but not 'reality' itself, that is true fidelity to the recording. The idea of having a high-fidelity equipment is you can actually hear different genres as they sound in their typical venues. I doubt tubes can do this. SoftwireEngineer's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=7000 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=98249 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Magico S1
ralphpnj wrote: > Must have been one those terrible British cars :) Let me narrate an interesting anecdote here. While visiting my folks in India, my brother-in-law tells our driver (chauffeur) "make sure all the wheels are tightened/intact" . I said, "what ? checking on the gas I understand, but wheels ?". Apparently, there is lot of this wheel stealing going on (alloy wheels). When one guy is doing the deed another watches on the owner. If the owner seems to be returning the actual "worker" is informed over the cell phone to quit. And in one such instance the owner drove with wheels(s) almost removed and met with a tragic end !! Yes, yes bolts are not bad, I have seen them on ships and airplanes too.. SoftwireEngineer's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=7000 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=98249 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Magico S1
ralphpnj wrote: > ..To many of us here the Magicos walk a fine line between being money > well spend and just a rip-off. Unfortunately the high end audio world is > structured so that it is very difficult to find out whether or not high > priced products are really worth their asking price. ... I think this is a very succinct description of the state of the union in the audiophile world !!! SoftwireEngineer's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=7000 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=98249 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Magico S1
After this thread, I went ahead and read about Magico. One interesting thing the designer mentions is about screwing the drivers to MDF. They ultimately become loose. But the whole Magico frame itself is bolted together. Wouldn't these bolts become loose too ? Anyways, the idea of an inert enclosure has always intrigued me as well. And I have looked into Egglestonworks speakers and enclosure less speakers like the Magnepan and Martin Logans. China has helped reduce the cost of cabinet manufacturing and I think these MDF based speaker prices have gone down or you should not be buying high priced versions of them either. I think this is where Magico is positioning itself. A real high-end model, it is the same technique premium for the last mile performance. Back to good deals, I think KEF and Focal are good because they are able to do some R&D because of their market share/volume. B&W is still high priced. As for me personally, I am eyeing the Magnepans as the smallest one on the wall I have now in the bedroom sounds very 'real' compared to any other speakers I have had (PSB, Paradigm, Silverline and even my current Newform Research). SoftwireEngineer's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=7000 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=98249 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] MEASUREMENTS: Some Squeezebox numbers to consider...
TheOctavist wrote: > DSD/SACD has no use... > > it is good in one application. mastering straight from analogue. when > done this way (from analog master straight to sacd disk) it retains the > properties that make it advantageous. however.. > > if one uses a DSD recorder, or processes the file in *any* way outside > of the first scenario above, all advantages are lost, due to HF present > in the source signal hitting a second delta sigma modulator. I have also come to the same observation. Only the analog to DSD seem to be good. I have a few SACDs but never bothered to buy more. Same goes for high-res. I have some 44.1/16 which are equally good. Actually, the original recording/transfer matters more than the format. SoftwireEngineer's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=7000 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=97950 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] MEASUREMENTS: Some Squeezebox numbers to consider...
Mnyb wrote: > Re measurments . > > I have to crosspost a link Octavist posted in another tread :) > > "a test designed to cure "Gear Hypochondria" " > > http://www.zmix.net/Converter_Test/index.htm Oh my goodness ...there is only a very slight difference between the 1 one and the 60th generation. 60th generation either has 60 times the jitter (or is it 120 or 120-1 ?) and still the difference is only very little. This is the best way to test for jitter. Every D/A and A/D will add some jitter, if a system cannot resolve this or you are unable to hear any difference, then 60 times the jitter is unnoticeable. How much jitter can one reduce in the playback chain ? Do the digital cables or any tweaks reduce jitter by 50-100 times ? Very interesting. Thanks for the link.. SoftwireEngineer's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=7000 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=97950 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Magico S1
@ralph - how come you are supportive of over-engineered analog specs but not digital specs ? :-) SoftwireEngineer's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=7000 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=98249 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] MEASUREMENTS: Some Squeezebox numbers to consider...
ralphpnj wrote: > Would you please be so kind as to provide a few examples of audio > reviewers are using the Touch as a transport with very good DACs since I > do not remember seeing this in any publication, print or on line. > Thanks! I am positive I remember reading this in a webzine audio equipment review. I will post/link next time around. I also have seen people using Oppo players as transports. SoftwireEngineer's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=7000 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=97950 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] MEASUREMENTS: Some Squeezebox numbers to consider...
Gentlemen, jitter has been the #1 design consideration in audio for long. Audio manufacturers like Meridian engineered buffered systems with accurate clocks and charged a premium for their products. Only that, now all this circuitry has been miniaturized and available in a single chip. To be fair to the reasonable of the audio reviewer lot, some do mention that DACs in the $1K range are now offering performance that had cost 10 times a few years ago. One of the main aspects of the DAC design is to receive data but reject the jitter in it. The CS8416 receiver used in the Headroom DAC is not bad, but apparently the diy audiophile community seems to favor the WM8805 chip because of a buffered logic. (These chips may have only a few micro sec buffer, but something like the TotalDAC is engineered with 0.1 sec buffer) . Please note, the quality of the power supply will greatly influence jitter. So, if you take the Aune X1 (for example) and modded the dc regulators to ensure a clean power supply (costing less than a few dollars) it might rival the performance of $1K dacs. BTW, I am also upset about the Squeezebox getting 'damned with faint praise' but I do see quite a few audio reviewers are using it as a transport with very good DACs. SoftwireEngineer's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=7000 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=97950 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] MEASUREMENTS: Some Squeezebox numbers to consider...
ralphpnj wrote: > I think a lot of what becomes audio myths starts off with some small > kernel of truth which is then blown well out of proportion. Cables and > vibration isolation are two examples. > .. Good point,. I see equipment stands for $7000 !!! Of course, cables are selling for ridiculous amount as well.. I guess these things are more of social status symbols.. SoftwireEngineer's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=7000 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=97950 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] MEASUREMENTS: Some Squeezebox numbers to consider...
Archimago wrote: > Yeah... Massive... The sky opened, veils were removed, soundstage > widened/deepened, speakers were like 20ft tall, I could feel the > singer's breath while singing, the music just became so much more > focused, saturated, and vivid. It was so good that I could feel the > conductor's baton hit my head during dynamic passages! ;-) > > Softwire: You *know* you want some AES/EBU's! Life would be incomplete > otherwise :-( > > BTW: Just put up a little video called "The hunt for load-induced > jitter!" > > archimago.blogspot.com Archimago, as mentioned earlier. This is not the jitter characteristic of the computer output but that of the receiver chip in Aune X1. You need a simple DAC with only a PLL to measure the actual jitter, It is quite possible that jitter is affected by what is going on in the computer. But in my view it is ridiculous to throw money at computer power supplies etc. There is a expression in my first language - tamil - even if you dump it into the river measure it before you do !! (As ralph mentioned elsewhere - Squeezebox/network players are an asynchoronous mechanism to isolate from the vagaries of a complex system like the computer) SoftwireEngineer's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=7000 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=97950 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Magico S1
@jh901 - Hope your anger was not directed at me. If you find my comments offensive, I take it back. It was just friendly banter. I do understand producing full range sound that very well is challenging. But the sentiments expressed here is against high-products is not isolated. See the comments on the stereophile site as well. I guess good engineers like Andrew Jones are led my marketing people who think they can play in the high-end of the market very easily. It is more like a consultancy business than a product business. With products, you need volume to make the profit. Maybe this high-end business is easier than the volume business. BTW, if you are calling me a non-audiophile, I am not at all offended :-) I buy stuff at my own pace and when I can really hear the difference. And when I am impressed with the engineering. I do respect engineering but with some caveats. SoftwireEngineer's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=7000 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=98249 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Magico S1
@mynb - agreed. 'audiophile exotica' nice term :-) One thing for sure - jh901- has too much cash in his hands :-) SoftwireEngineer's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=7000 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=98249 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] MEASUREMENTS: Some Squeezebox numbers to consider...
ralphpnj wrote: > If Archimago wrote for any of the audio magazines then he would hear > massive, as in night and day, differences in the sound. Remember every > jitter bit counts! But now, he has me tempted me to try a XLR cable after seeing how transparent the graph is .. If he can buy all this equipment when he is not hearing any changes, I HAVE to, because I think I hear differences all the times, jitter or whatever, :-) SoftwireEngineer's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=7000 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=97950 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Magico S1
@Mynb - agree on the bad side-effects of over-driving single driver. But you know there are people who prefer a single-driver speaker, actually. Mine is a two-way, but it is a half-tower. I dont like stand-mounts. I dont want to spend too much money on stands. Instead of a brute-force construction, I'd like to seem some real design/engineering like in the new KEF monitor (which is considered a best buy in two-way monitors now). SoftwireEngineer's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=7000 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=98249 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Oppo BDP-105 - Measurements up!
@Mynb - I figured out the brightness comes when I upsample to 96Khz. At 88Khz, it becomes soft. Leaving it at the actual rate sounds the best (this is what soundchek also asserts, whatever credibility he has in your books). So no more upsampling. I was not very comfortable with the sound of my system after I switched out my Panasonic and put in the TACT. It seems like there was a mid-bass hump or room-mode kind of coloration. After some changes which should not actually make much of a difference (power cords, position of SBT etc, some simple isolation for the power supply/SBT) I am now getting a sounds which is much satisfactory. I am satisfied with my low volume listening now (all the detail). It is kind of weird, the sound got dialled in well. I was even thinking of getting a usb converter in the $500 range. But now I am skeptical whether a usb converter will make much of a difference. I might still get a usb converter supposedly with low-jitter etc to see what the fuss is all about, but I am in no rush. SoftwireEngineer's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=7000 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=98187 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Oppo BDP-105 - Measurements up!
Julf wrote: > Yes. All I can say is that they are pretty darn impressive. Awesome.. Please check your Private Messages Inbox. SoftwireEngineer's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=7000 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=98187 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Magico S1
I am happy with my two-way too. 7in woofer like the S1 but a 30in ribbon tweeter. It all depends on how much low it can go and in how big a room. Still, 12.5K is a lot of money. Surely, this is not a value speaker. The Magnepans are high value, for eg. .Too much money/effort spent on the box (all solid aluminum). I'd prefer a different technology and lower price. SoftwireEngineer's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=7000 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=98249 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] MEASUREMENTS: Some Squeezebox numbers to consider...
Archimago wrote: > Thanks. Even though it's been said that the AES/EBU interface isn't as > good as BNC, I gotta admit that what I'm seeing is pretty damn good! Great work.. but you still dont hear any thing in the sound right ? Real pursuit of science !!! :-) SoftwireEngineer's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=7000 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=97950 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] MEASUREMENTS: Some Squeezebox numbers to consider...
Archimago - you are probably noticing only the jitter characteristics of the SPDIF transceiver chip in the X1 - WM8805 (atleast when using the coaxial input). It is also possible that the USB output also passed through this before the DAC chip. That will explain the lack of any effect from the load on the computer. Follow leeperry on head-fi he know how to find out the source jitter by connecting it to DACs without any buffer/de-jittering chips. BTW, the WM8805 is a wonder which otherwise (10 years ago or so) needed a discrete implementation in the Genesis Digital Lens. Now these transceiver chips (WM8804/5, CS8414/6 are showing up in cheap ebay DACs/converters and helping make jitter as a non-issue even in affordable electronics. Note, though such quality chips were not available in the past and it is better to upgrade to new electronics even at low-mid price levels. SoftwireEngineer's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=7000 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=97950 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Oppo BDP-105 - Measurements up!
Archimago wrote: > > Anyhow, in March my day job is going to get a lot busier so I likely > won't be around as much. I've got a couple other measurements I'd like > to finish up on - adaptive vs. asynchronous USB through the same DAC is > one... > > Speaking of companies taking an Oppo and modding it, I might have an > opportunity to measure a ModWright Oppo BDP-105... It'd be fascinating > to see what tubes do to those very impressing results I obtained! This > will all depend on whether the owner of said unit would let me get close > to the thing with my "test bench" :-)A @Archimago - one more thing you might be interested is - upsampling using sox. This is surely something I can tell a difference, even in a DBT, I think. I used the options from Klaus/Soundcheck (TT author). He does not like it. He thinks the sound will turn mellow or bright, For me it is on the bright side, I think, but I like it, because it seems like I am hearing more detail. Actually, even at low volume I can pick out the details now. @Julf - is it the NCORE modules ? I want to go crossover-less as well. But since TACT has folded I am not keen on another TACT amp. I might keep the current one and probably get some DIY full digital amplifier (like the hifimediy module). I may have to do some surgery on my Newform Research speakers, which are known to work well with full digital amps. SoftwireEngineer's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=7000 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=98187 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Oppo BDP-105 - Measurements up!
@Archimago - you are doing a great service in the understanding of the issues in high-fidelity music reproduction. We just cannot rely only on audiophile mag/webzines. It also encourages people (like me) to be more technically involved in this hobby. That said, I do think there are too many specifications/parameters, whose optimal values lead to good sound. This is the reason I think people just go by the ear. Also, I think some distortions are euphonic (tubes. vinyl ?) and many audiophile designs make this part of their circuit (the colorations crowd) which muddies the waters between high-fidelity and sweet-fidelity. My problem is, somewhere among these audiophile manufacturers there are a few who have addressed real issues in high-fidelity reproduction without spending too much on cosmetics so as to extract a premium. The challenge is to identify these 'value' manufacturers/price point. Oppo might be a good example. I still have a player (like Ralph, I guess) which I guess for SACD/DVD-Audio out into HDMI of my Panasonic receivers. These players are being rebadged my audiophile manufacturers (like Ayre, Nuforce etc). Maybe it will be a good idea to test these and see what these manufacturers have done and see if the sound is an improvement (DBT or even subjective impressions from unbiased audiophiles). @Julf - what is the best home audio system you have heard ? The problem is all the systems I have heard which sound good are all 'tricked' out systems - high end player, amp, cables etc. A friend of mine, recently, who was using high-end Marantz receivers moved to PS Audio player/DAC, wyred4sound amps etc. He says, for sure there is an improvement in the sound. SoftwireEngineer's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=7000 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=98187 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Oppo BDP-105 - Measurements up!
Great..the jitter graph looks really nice. Thanks Archimago. So does better measurements correlate with better sound subjectively ? Otherwise, it might be just a waste of engineering effort. Maybe the companies are building over-speced pieces just to justify the high-price of the equipment. SoftwireEngineer's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=7000 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=98187 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] MEASUREMENTS: Some Squeezebox numbers to consider...
Archimago also knows the exact meaning of Nirvana - freedom :-) I think I have to work through my karma before I attain this state. My system sounds different at different times of the day. Plugging in different power cords into different condtioners or outlets seem to change the sound.. the Touch Toolbox seems to make a difference .. Oh well. It must be all in my head .. but just one more tweak I need to try before I give up (for the nth time) :-) .. USB converter ... clean power.. stable clocks...direct connection to COAX input .. If somebody can spend $30K (on dCS gear) ..I can spend $1K ..ha my temptations :-) SoftwireEngineer's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=7000 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=97950 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] MEASUREMENTS: Some Squeezebox numbers to consider...
@Archimago - you make it sound like your system has attained a stage of Nirvana that nothing changes the sound of it :-) Or maybe you have so that you can hear the music clearly in your head, even without the system being on :-) Anyways, reading a thread on audibility of jitter - Steve Nugent says, he has been 'wasting his time' on improving jitter. That is a very philosophical statement if you read deeply. I think I have seen you on audioasylum. But you need to frequent head-fi.org, if not already. This is where I find people who understand some technical things - for eg when they talk about a DAC they always talk about the receiver chip used in it (which can help reject jitter). SoftwireEngineer's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=7000 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=97950 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] MEASUREMENTS: Some Squeezebox numbers to consider...
krochat wrote: > Back in 1986 I bought a Toyota Camry without consulting my wife (since > she wasn't available at the time - I did try to call her). > She still reminds me about it occasionally - 27 years later! We did keep > the car for 15 years, so I wasn't totally in the doghouse. > > Kim Good to see a SBT+TACT user. Thats an elaborate playback chain you have there. Can you describe ? SoftwireEngineer's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=7000 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=97950 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] MEASUREMENTS: Some Squeezebox numbers to consider...
ralphpnj wrote: > ... By the way before I had the two methods mentioned above I made the > mistake of bypassing the spouse when purchasing a rather costly piece > equipment. I can tell you from experience DON'T EVER DO SUCH A FOOLISH > THING!!! :) Great point.. gratefully noted :-) SoftwireEngineer's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=7000 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=97950 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] MEASUREMENTS: Some Squeezebox numbers to consider...
Archimago wrote: > I'm gonna have to take a look at the adaptive USB AUNE X1 DAC I measured > again and have a look at the J-Test results out of that unit. All I can > say for now is that the RightMark results looked OK despite the > different USB conditions - so presumably the jitter sidebands were not > impairing the adaptive USB interface in a bad enough way to cause major > measurement anomalies. > > I'll also soon be taking delivery of a CM6631 USB to SPDIF unit to try > which is an asynchronous USB system and I can hook that up to the AUNE > and have a "shootout" between direct adaptive USB vs. asynchronous USB > to SPDIF through the same DAC. > > It'll be interesting to see if adaptive USB is really that bad at least > with the system I'm proposing above... > > As for the cables, the effects I found I believe are interactions > between the DAC-computer USB chipset-drivers. I highly doubt cables > would make any difference! Confused..isn't your Asus Xonar E1 cm6631 based ? I am not sure it is worth testing the adaptive USB. If you do an ls on your computer, while playing it might change the jitter spectrum. This is what took many audiophiiles into the rat hole. SoftwireEngineer's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=7000 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=97950 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] MEASUREMENTS: Some Squeezebox numbers to consider...
ha ha.. good observation ..Ralph .I have a reality check at home - wife. More over all money is in joint account !!! Unless approved by CFO, cannot do much in this company :-) SoftwireEngineer's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=7000 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=97950 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] MEASUREMENTS: Some Squeezebox numbers to consider...
ralphpnj wrote: > Softwire you are starting to sound as if you drank some the Kool-Aid :) > You are correct that audio quality is not an open-shut case but it's > also not the night and day case that the audio rags would have us > believe. However in the case of jitter there is quite clearly a case of > the audio press selectively choosing when jitter is audible and when > it's not. In order to pedal asynchronous USB DACs for aging audiophiles > to use with their precious miniMacs jitter became this horrible beast to > slayed at any cost. However when pedaling high end NOS DACs jitter is no > longer important because the DAC is just so wonderful. Give me a break! > > Look I've stated my case many times on many other posts on this forum. I > agree that is a place for envelope pushing state of the art designs and > equipment that by its very nature costs a small fortune but that is > quite different from refusing to use ANY objective testing standards in > ANY of the reviews. All manufacturers are free to charge as much as they > possibly can for their products because it's always caveat emptor as far > as us poor consumers are concerned and again this is quite a different > thing from having a entire industry of audio review magazines which > serve the manufacturers (also know as advertisers) rather than the > readership. Pushing $500 USB cables makes them CLOWNS. Ignoring the big > bad jitter monster when it suits the proposes of the manufacturer makes > them CLOWNS. Refusing to do the least bit of any kind of objective > testing makes them CLOWNS. > > Now that being said does not absolve the manufacturers of their share of > the blame. Just as there are more clownish members of the high end press > (TAS are by far the master clowns) there are more dishonest > manufacturers (with high end cable manufacturers leading the way). > Charging $3,000 for a black metal speaker is dishonest no matter how you > slice it. Charging $7,200 for a power cord or $13,100 for a one meter > pair of interconnects (no that's not a mistake $13,100 is correct) as do > Crystal Cable and then having that same over-priced piece of garbage > named a Product of the Year, as is the case in the latest issue of TAS, > only makes it case of CLOWNS squared. So I'm going to continue to > calling out these CLOWNS as often as I like because the audio press is > just not interested in honestly helping their readers. It's a dirty job > but someone has to do it. Ralph - I agree with you on the appalling exotic cable vendors fleecing the rich , gullible audiophiles (deservedly :-) ) . Especially, the Audioquest Ethernet cables was the most silliest thing I have ever seen. That said, I probably have taken a different path than you in this hobby. I started out young and knowing EE, I thought digital cables are digital and so used some cheap toslink, I also used a TV stand with castors for my audio equipment. Even the salesman, who sold, NAD integrated amps and PSB speakers, sold me some bulk speaker cables because they were good enough for me, even though he was selling high-priced wires otherwise. But I realized, changing to a electrical digital cable, a good solid rack and wires like DHLabs t-14 did make a change in the sound of my system. I tried different speakers. I tried different amps. Currently loving my Newform Research and TACT amp. I think this is the most transparent sound I have heard (though not completely blowing away Silverline Sonatinas). Because of the various changes I did to get this far . I keep wondering if I modded my Squeezebox with better clocks or got a asynch USB converter, will the sound improve. I know fully well from Archimago's graphs things are way below 100db. But I am unable to get over this mental sickness :-) SoftwireEngineer's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=7000 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=97950 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] MEASUREMENTS: Some Squeezebox numbers to consider...
@Archimago - if this is the case with asynch USB, I cannot imagine the situation with 'adaptive' USB earlier. No wonder, the exotic USB cable vendors 'made hay when the sun shone'. SoftwireEngineer's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=7000 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=97950 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] MEASUREMENTS: Some Squeezebox numbers to consider...
Archimago wrote: > Honestly don't think I've ever been able to hear differences between > decent digital cables; coax or TosLink. > > I have downstairs the Transporter (Behringer DEQ2496 digital loop for > room EQ via TosLink) --> Simaudio Moon i3.3 --> Paradigm Signature S8. > (Apparently I like my Canadian audio :-) > > Occasionally if I want to have a taste of tube sound, I'll plug in the > Onix SP3 amp. > > In the longer term, I'm actually interested in making the room into a > good surround setup so still evaluating options around digital surround > processors + amp. I have a pair of older Paradigm Studio 80 which should > make some nice rears. Over the years I've gradually converted my DVD-A & > SACD's to 5.1 FLAC's. I'd love to have a listen to some of that over a > good surround DAC one day (probably thru HDMI from my HTPC although I > would love a Transporter-like device that can handle multichannel!). Archimago ..awesome speakers and amps. I am sure they load your room and you need treatments/equalization, probably you dont even need subwoofers. In your case, I suggest equalization on the server side. I am afraid, Behringer may not be up to the spec of the Transporter. When I had a SRC2496, it seemed to 'soften' up the sound. BTW, I worked in Waterloo, Ontario for little more than a year (during the early days of the Blackberry). Canadian speaker manufacturers are benefitting from a very nice state-run lab, I think, for anechoic testing. I started in this hobby with PSB speakers. SoftwireEngineer's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=7000 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=97950 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] MEASUREMENTS: Some Squeezebox numbers to consider...
ralphpnj wrote: > Not to quibble when you're bashing "audiophile 'golden ears'" but isn't > the jitter in the above graph still well below the audible range? Which > kind of means that jitter is really only a selective bogeyman brought > out or ignored depending on what piece of gear is being sold. Oops did I > just write "sold"? Must have a Freudian slip since I meant "reviewed". > So when pushing over priced USB cables jitter becomes this big scary > monster and when pedaling badly designed audiophile DACs jitter becomes > a cute little harmless kitten. Now hold on because you know it's > coming.THAT'S WHY I CALL THEM CLOWNS Ralph, I think you agree you have to pay a bit more to get some quality equipment and sound. So how is this equipment different from the 'consumer' range ? There is some engineering differences, right ? What are they ? Does a Behringer sound as good as a Lavry DAC ? Is it power supply, is it the output stage, is it DAC chip, is it the jitter reducing receiver before the DAC chip ? I think audio quality is not a open-shut case. It is a complex system of various engineering approaches to achieving high-fidelity (meaning loyal to the original) sound. Lower priced equipment make 'approximations'..higher priced equipment take it to the theorertical limits. Probably, these high-end companies take the circuit design to the limits even though after some point the audible benefits are beyond human perception. But this 'perception' thing is relative, what is not good to you, maybe is good enough for some. What is good to you maybe is not good enough for others. You can always say it is the placebo effect, snobbishness etc. We cannot make DBT a law .. so the unscrupulous of the engineers survive on the fringes of 'over-speced' equipment or as Mynb says, even on 'invented' specs of their own. SoftwireEngineer's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=7000 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=97950 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] MEASUREMENTS: Some Squeezebox numbers to consider...
Archimago wrote: > NOPE. Not for cables. > > Throughout these tests on occasion I have tried listening to music with > my Sennheiser HD800 plugged in to the headphone out on the E1. Can't > hear a difference even with the "RCA cable pretending to be coaxial" > between the Touch to E1. Some would argue however that you need to > listen with speakers for changes in soundstage, etc... Who knows. > > I guess what I could do is play music through the jittery condition, > record it, and play it back on my Transporter and see if I think there > has been a change in sound quality. In this way, it'll be jitter > injected into the music. Could be an interesting experiment! (another > blind test ;-)? Yes, headphones are not good for this (atleast in my case- I am ok wiht listening to mp3s also with my headphones) . Even though people at head-fi seem to buy expensive transports/DACs. I think I can detect differences in digital cables to some extent, but the difference is not as stark as say, switching my Panny amp out for the TACT (even though both operate using the same chipset from TI). What speakers do you have ? How is your system setup ? SoftwireEngineer's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=7000 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=97950 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] MEASUREMENTS: Some Squeezebox numbers to consider...
Archimago wrote: > Nope, the labeling is correct. From the perspective of data-correlated > sidebands, the TosLink seems to be worse. There is however more > "spectral spreading" of the central tone in the coaxial input. That's > what I was referring to when I mentioned the "base" was widened for the > coaxial inputs. I'm unclear why the "spectral purity" of the coaxial > input signal seems worse than TosLink in this regard or the interplay > with these measured sidebands. Anyone help explain this? > > BTW: Last week while measuring the Transporter, I ran the 16/44 J-Test > signal... Though not the same as the 24/48 one for the Touch, it's > comparable. > > 14450 > > Now that's a clean trace! Right, even though everything is way below 100db .. do you hear any differences in sound quality between the various cables or the Transporter into the E1 versus the SBT into the E1 ? SoftwireEngineer's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=7000 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=97950 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] MEASUREMENTS: Some Squeezebox numbers to consider...
Awesome..you did it . Archimago - BTW, did you label the graphs wrongly ?. Looks to me the Toslink is better than coax (the base is wider with coax). Or I dont know to read the graph .. SoftwireEngineer's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=7000 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=97950 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] MEASUREMENTS: Some Squeezebox numbers to consider...
MichaelJ wrote: > While I appreciate the technical measurements in reviews, it would be > sweet if the reviewers had to post a graph of their own frequency > response before posting their subjective evaluations. They do to some extent. But the specs may not correlate with the reviewers gushing at times. Here is a good one - http://hi-fiworld.co.uk/index.php/internet-audio/531-xxx.html?showall=1 SoftwireEngineer's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=7000 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=97950 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] What is your personal philosophy as an "audiophile"?
ralphpnj wrote: > Halftime = autotune > > Inauguration = lip sync > > Similar but not the same. :-) I like to hear exactly what is in the recording as well. Tubes seem to take the leading edge out of recordings. This is not good, especially for rock. Even though I amplify the analog playback also digitally, I dont think I will get the same sound digitizing them. I think, the major difference in analog and digital, is in the way the source signal is created (electro-magnetic vs solid-state etc). And I think amplification technology is less important. This is just a guess, dont ask me for any theoretical proof. If at all, I move to an analog amp, I would try different DACs with different ways of digital-analog conversion. SoftwireEngineer's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=7000 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=98057 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Why 24/192 Files make no sense - article
Julf wrote: > OK, but we were asking about your statements about 24 bit vs 16 bit, not > about downsampling... I thought I was clear. 16bit-24bit is all about quantization. You should read about this yourself. SoftwireEngineer's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=7000 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=98044 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Why 24/192 Files make no sense - article
Julf wrote: > I don't think we are interested in the research - we are just interested > in why you think it matters. A bunch of us had it in school, and arrived > at different conclusions than you. I don't have that many Hi-Rez recordings. What ever I have i bought it mainly for those non-theoretical reasons (and continue to). There is some theoretical benefits to 24bit. But as I mentioned earlier in some other thread I have heard some RedBook recordings as good as Hi-Rez. So it is quite possible, if you downsampled Hi-Rez and ask me to pick the differences I may not be able to. SoftwireEngineer's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=7000 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=98044 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Why 24/192 Files make no sense - article
ralphpnj wrote: > Don't generalize! There are plenty of really bad and completely > worthless high resolution releases available. In the worse cases all > they do is upsample the CD master to "make" it high resolution. And what > happens with all those early all digital recordings which were recorded > at 16bit and a maximum of 48kHz? > > Not to mention some of the choices for what recordings get the high > resolution audiophile treatment which is more often than not merely a > question of licensing. There are quite a few audiophile releases which > leave me scratching my head wondering what makes this POS worthy of an > audiophile release? Yes.. yes .. I was generalizing.. there are always the unscrupulous in this business. SoftwireEngineer's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=7000 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=98044 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Why 24/192 Files make no sense - article
Wombat wrote: > This is a typical example of audiophile gibberish. How does this > mysterious "Quantization Error" in 16bit matter against 24bit? Please > explain it to me because i don´t see the issue. That is theoretically speaking.. You can do the research for yourself. SoftwireEngineer's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=7000 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=98044 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Why 24/192 Files make no sense - article
I read sampling theory in school, just like how Lavry explains. So I am not fond of anything over 44.1Khz. But I like the 24bit versions (less quantization error). And there are side-benefits in buying these Hi-Rez music (vs the theoretical non-advantages) - usually, the transfers to digital from the analog masters are done more carefully and with better quality digital equipment. Also, they pick good analog master tapes and good recordings (from sonics point of view) for these transfers. SoftwireEngineer's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=7000 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=98044 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] What is your personal philosophy as an "audiophile"?
@Archimago and Mynb - I have not bought much vinyl in recent years either. Also, right now, my turntable is packed up. My kids damaged the stylus and I dont want to replace it till my kids grow up a bit. (they are fascinated by mechanical things and will surely mess it up). That said, I have to say, IMHO, digital sounds veiled, atleast my digital compared to my vinyl, in my setup. I did mention it may not be accurate. But to me it sounds more 'real' than my SBT in my setup. No, I am not into euphonics, I just want it to sound like real instruments, the tone and dynamics. That is the reason I am still messing with my SBT. I may break down and get a Linux computer and a asynchronous USB converter eventually. SoftwireEngineer's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=7000 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=98057 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] What is your personal philosophy as an "audiophile"?
I think I am in the 'hi-fidelity' camp on this. Yes, the term audiophile has become associated with 'euphonics', over a period of time. I do think though that vinyl lovers do not necessarily fall under that euphonic category. I have a MMF-5 turntable and I feel it is one of the most transparent sounding sources I have had. It is very difficult to get that kind of transparency from digital. I think it is mostly related to actually recreating the sound physically (you can hear the sound when you are close when the amp is off) and just picking it up and amplifying it - more like a mic feed. Some say, it is not a accurate reproduction, but if you take a same analog recording - one cut to LP and another sampled, I think you might prefer the LP, for a reasonably priced system. Similarly, some feel that 'solid-state' does not truly recreate the waveforms like tubes and have a preference for the thermionic emission of the tubes. Apparently, any distortion the tubes create is harmonically related and is not damaging. After a while, people just start preferring the distortion itself and go after 'euphonic colorations' in their system. In my case, I have the 'listen from another room test'. Can I tell what is playing outside, another room is a real instrument or not ? For eg, I hear somebody playing the drums in a distant home, when I am going for a jog. No mistaking a real direct sound. Of course, it is difficult to recreate that with audio equipment, different musical instruments product different frequencies, but a speaker has to produce them all (of course, you have woofer, tweeter etc still). I think everything in the chain in a stereo system contributes/affects the sound. I like to keep it to a minium. I ran with my Panasonic digital amplifier for quite some time and then 'upgraded' to the TACT. For others, who like to use DAC/amp, I suggest going after a preamp-less system if you can deal with the number of source. Many DACs now come with preamp capabilities (source selection, volume control) and while doing doing AD, it can also do the volume adjustments and hence reduce one component/connection in the chain. SoftwireEngineer's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=7000 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=98057 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] MEASUREMENTS: Some Squeezebox numbers to consider...
Archimago wrote: > Absolutely agree that one should try it oneself and make your own > decisions. However, I would be cautious as to what "sounds better". As > my MP3 test I think has shown, what may sound better to some does not > mean it's "accurate" - same applies to the equipment itself. (There's > obviously a bigger philosophical discussion around this.) > > As for the E1. All tests were done with the "asymmetric upsampling" > defeated. There's a button on the front to disable the SHARC processor > inside doing the upsampling and I have noticed some anomalies with it so > I never use it. I also notice some mild increase in noise floor with the > DSP activated on the measurements. I have not seen your mp3 tests. But I myself prefer to listen to some mp3's, especially with headphones, because it acts like the 'contrast' control in TVs. But in my main system, you can tell the images are messed up/all over the place. The reference for me is live music and I also like to know how the recording was mic'ed. Recordings from Waterlily Acoustics are good for these kind of critical listening. "asymmetric upsampling" ? I thought the E1 had "symmetric upsampling". I did not like the ASRC in my Behringer SRC2496 either. The instruments seem to get 'softer'. SoftwireEngineer's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=7000 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=97950 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] MEASUREMENTS: Some Squeezebox numbers to consider...
Archimago wrote: > .. > I certainly do not want to be disparaging or unreasonably cynical since > the human mind and body is complex and many secrets are yet to be > discovered. Hey, I'm even happy to help out as an 'objectivist > audiophile' comparison group if my expenses are paid and everyone gets > some Nordost cables. (My cables of course will immediately get tested > and put up on eBay to the highest bidder.) Right, the problem is , these audio systems of these 'crazy' people do sound better than mine. So should I also follow whatever they did ? This is the main reason, I am reading, researching and trying things out myself. (BTW, is there a way to defeat the upsampling in your Asus Xonar E1 ?) SoftwireEngineer's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=7000 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=97950 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] MEASUREMENTS: Some Squeezebox numbers to consider...
AlexM wrote: > Yes, this is in comparison between SPDIF and USB outputs from the same > SBT running the EDO plug-in. I can also tell the difference between > Toslink and SP/DIF (Toslink sounds smoother but a bit lacking in detail, > imaging and bass, SP/DIF is more detailed, more 'air' and deeper bass). > > > USB is more like the toslink output in character, but has a nice > 'liquid' quality to the sound, although reble seems to slightly > rolled-off and weight isn't quite as impactful. > > It will be interesting if anything shows up in comparison between > measurements for SPDIF and USB. > > Cheers, > Alex hmm..surprising you should hear these differences even with your 851c. I hear the same characteristics (glass toslink/zu ash) with my humble Panny and to a smaller extent with my TACT S2150. This is the reason I am banking on Archimago to settle the issue once for all, atleast for a few of us involved in the discussions here. (no pressure, Archimago :-) ) I got into Squeezebox because I felt architecturally it is the best way to do computer audio. My main reasons - a) it is not dependent on computer hardware/power supply for the digital output. b) It is 'asynchronous' .i.e can handle network bandwidth/congestion. c) It is easier to provide a clean/good power supply to a smaller device than a computer (more complex). Only caveat was, Slimdevices themselves confused me by introducing a higher-end - Transporter. And now, the whole industry is after 'asynchronous USB' when the whole architecture was already there in SB. hmm.. SoftwireEngineer's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=7000 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=97950 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] MEASUREMENTS: Some Squeezebox numbers to consider...
@Archimago - this is awesome. But it feels like work though (I was benchmarking some Big Data code yesterday) :-) If you want to just load the CPU without network, some scripts (like while 1: ls -lR > /dev/null) would do the trick. What does the Spectrum Analysis do in RMAA ? Can we run a long 11Khz wav file and check the spectrum ? As long as it is plotted with good range and accuracy, just visually it can be checked for any difference. @AlexM - Are you noticing the difference between SPDIF and USB output from the same SBT ? Do you notice difference between Toslink and SPDIF ? SoftwireEngineer's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=7000 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=97950 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] MEASUREMENTS: Some Squeezebox numbers to consider...
@Alex - I dont think you need to worry about Jitter from the SBT. Your 851c has heavy buffering and processing which should take care of the jitter. In my case, I goes to my TACT Direct Digital Integrated amplifier, so I am always concerned about source jitter. I am not sure how much processing/buffering my TACT S2150 has. SoftwireEngineer's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=7000 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=97950 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] MEASUREMENTS: Some Squeezebox numbers to consider...
Looks like I also did the same experiments - measuring CPU using top. Conclusion - system is less idle when you are you streaming PCM. The sirq component is high, because, this is deferred processing of the incoming network data (which is more in case of PCM). The system starts a bit idle but as it goes into the song the sirq starts piling up and then again the last 1 minute of the song system frees up. If at all there is any sonic difference, it is not coming from a less idle CPU. BTW, I dont think I am noticing any difference. Also, I am able to stream 24/96 when I am streaming flac. So I am going to set it to flac streaming and run with it for a while and later switch see any subjective differences exist. +---+ |Filename: pcmstreaming.jpg | |Download: http://forums.slimdevices.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=14429| +---+ SoftwireEngineer's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=7000 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=97950 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] MEASUREMENTS: Some Squeezebox numbers to consider...
nordost and few others provide the measurements. Nordost's construction is actually pretty fascinating. It is cheaper to buy good copper or silver wire and Teflon and make it yourself. SoftwireEngineer's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=7000 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=97950 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] MEASUREMENTS: Some Squeezebox numbers to consider...
Gentlemen, I know you like to have a laugh at the audiophile madness, just like I am aghast at the obscene pricing and unnecessary cosmetic build materials. In the case, of speaker cables and power cables, if you measure the electrical properties of stock vs say, Shunyata, there will surely be some difference. But does it translate to difference in the sound of your system ? Probably not that much. To be fair, some audiophile reviewers, they do say it does not benefit some very high end equipment. So for power cables, it depends on the power supply in your equipment. In the case of speaker cables, it all depends on the output impedence of your amplifier and the impedence characteristics of your speaker. All the speaker cable designers do, is keep tweaking the inductance/capacitance balance. Many try to reduce the capacitance, while keeping the inductance low (by winding which actually will increase capacitance). Note, resistor, capacitor or inductor that we buy/use in our circuits are not necessarily purely resistance, capacitance or inductance. They have other properties as well, but very low. It is quite possible some people can hear the differences between different resistors, capacitors or inductors of the same value but from different brand/quality. This is the same story with power or speaker cables, they are not purely resistive. BTW, Shunyata in sanskrit language means, nothingness. They are trying to shoot for it in their cable designs. SoftwireEngineer's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=7000 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=97950 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] MEASUREMENTS: Some Squeezebox numbers to consider...
Archimago wrote: > Yes, these old recordings don't need 24/192. However, I must say that > this particular recording - the HDTracks 2011 release seems to be a good > remaster with DR14 and no crazy hi-frequency hash. > > I want to see if i get any snap/crackle/pop with 24/96 streamed > uncompressed over WiFi. Well.. it all depends on how strong your wifi connection is, right ? I have only 30-40% and with 24/96 uncompressed I do get interruptions/rebuffering pauses. Maybe, I will switch to compressed (after I hear back from pippin). @ralph - I have Davis's Kind of Blue. Agree with you. Very good recording. Even in 50s/60s there was good analog recording technologies/tape systems. SoftwireEngineer's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=7000 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=97950 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] MEASUREMENTS: Some Squeezebox numbers to consider...
BTW, it is good to buy DVD-As or high-res file just to get hold of good recordings. This is good mainly for classical music (different orchestras playing classics can be recorded with new/updated equipment). But for mainstream (rock, jazz etc) you are stuck with the original recording and get lucky when they release better transfers to digital from analog. SoftwireEngineer's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=7000 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=97950 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] MEASUREMENTS: Some Squeezebox numbers to consider...
Mnyb wrote: > Yep i've done a lot of that downsampled hirez ,but I've used modern > 24/192 /96 recordings so that is reasonable possibility of it making a > difference ,sorry even if I'm a fanboy of the DVDA format ( have > hundreds ) no difference . > > A good master is good master , the reality is that in some cases a much > better version/master can be sold under the hirez moniker. > This is apparently a needed marketing gimmick as the record companies > have destroyd " remastered " as a quality seal . > Nowadays "remastered" usually means crap , they tried to make it sound > modern with digital clipping and squashed dynamics etc the late 80's > early 90's CDs's of some stuff is usually the best bet . > > Like a coincidence , if DVDA or SACD has a cd quality layer ,this layer > always sounds worse than the hirez ;) DO you think they purposely mess up the CD layer ? I found the SACD/CD player sound almost the same in my Alison Kraus's New Favorite. But then again, I am listening to 24bit/88.2kHz output of my Oppo when playing SACDs. For some reason, I am not sure about SACD quality. It seems a little "smoothed" out. In contrast PCM recordings seem more 'transparent/natural' to me. My Magnepan speakers crossover cannot handle SACD output (the NewForms seem fine) and I hear some noise when playing SACDs even after it has been downsampled to PCM by the OPPO. Did not try the analog out of the Oppo to my digital amp when playing SACDs. Anyways, I have only around < 20 or 30 SACD/DVDAs. SoftwireEngineer's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=7000 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=97950 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] MEASUREMENTS: Some Squeezebox numbers to consider...
Mnyb wrote: > Thanks for this measurements series a lot of real work done . > > 4. Urgh , very fine recording but you tikled another toe here , the > intrisinic resolution of the old recordings are less than any modern > format you chose to present them in . Even if it's fantastic sounding > with fantastic music the noise levels and frequency response are such > that it can be completely coded by any format from 16/44.1 and upward. > The delivery format is never the limit nowadays . I have heard 16bit/44.1Khz that is as good as any other high-resolution. I think it all depends on the mic'ing techniques and the equipment used to record. To actually, compare low vs hi-res it is always good to downsample the high-res to low-res and then compare (instead of using a different low res recording). Usually, the high-res recordings are made with more care, better equipment and that is where the improvement comes from usually (my opinion). Quite likely beyond 24bit/48Khz there is any improvement. If at all there is, it is probably due to implementation reasons (the high-res bits taking a different path in the system than the low res) vs actual improvement from real resolution changes. SoftwireEngineer's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=7000 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=97950 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] MEASUREMENTS: Some Squeezebox numbers to consider...
pippin wrote: > Hi, let me chime in for one more question: did I overlook the test for > server-side FLAC decoding vs. FLAC decoding on the touch itself? > I would be really interested in that one, especially also in a > comparison between the WiFi vs. Ethernet performance. > > The rationale is that counter to "conventional" audiophile wisdom my > experience when testing 96/24 playback in iPeng was that the raw PCM > data actually caused a noticeably _higher_ system load compared to FLAC. > What this means is, that he system load caused by decoding FLAC is > actually less than the load caused by the higher amount of data (roughly > factor 2) for PCM. It was quite noticeable even on a device as > performant as iPad 3. > > Now, the iPad of course always uses WiFi (no Ethernet there) and it's > quite obvious that the load actually HAS to be higher: all the data > needs to go through the WPA decoding which certainly requires more power > than FLAC decoding. > But then I'm not sure that the WPA decoding isn't done in the WiFi > chipset so that the CPU (where I noticed the difference in load) doesn't > ever get involved. > > Any chance you'd run one (OK, four) more test(s)? The higher system load is on ipads right ? Have you checked this out on the Squeezebox itself (which is where this suggestion originated) ? This probably is related to hardware architecture. SoftwireEngineer's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=7000 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=97950 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] MEASUREMENTS: Some Squeezebox numbers to consider...
@Archimago - my speakers are fine. Just wanted to point out because of less number of drivers (than my previous Silverline Sonatina) it needs a different position. I have seen speaker designers say they do not shoot for a flat frequency response in an anechoic chamber, because with real music it does not sound good. I am not sure they are just trying to pander to the "audiophile" crowd with this statement. I personally, go for specs as well as sound. Many audiophile brands are not true "high-fidelity" systems. They are tuned to sound in a certain way. One of the Integrated Amps I had earlier 'AudioRefinement Complete' (ralph has it, I think) was found to be designed purposely with some non-linear compression by hackers ie. louder treble sounds get attenuated more. Apparently, this is done to voice it like tube amps. I have not liked this at all. The Primare brand is also voiced similarly based on my listening at the stores here. One of the reasons I like my true digital amplifiers (like TACT and Panasonic) very transparent. An audio reviewer also mentions he uses the current Nuforce D100 as the ultimate reference for transparency. I prefer 'live/dynamic/realistic/transparent' sound. My Newform seems a little bit "polite" compared to Magnepans which was the speakers I really liked for the 'live' sound. Sound can be created in many ways (dynamic, planar/ribbon, etc and solid-state/tube etc) it is difficult to say which one is really high-fidelity, I guess (some people say, micro-dynamics are good with tubes, I personally dont like that sound). SoftwireEngineer's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=7000 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=97950 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] MEASUREMENTS: Some Squeezebox numbers to consider...
I have to agree with Archimago on how difficult it is to evaluate audio equipment. Music is continually varying and we do most of the measurements with a single frequency which puts the system to a "steady-state". It is quite possible the system will behave differently with actual music. One of the reasons, we have measurements like Impulse response, Damping factor, square wave output shape etc to evaluate how the system would perform with real music. It is also quite possible we have not come up with a more accurate/relevant measurements yet. This is the reason I do give the benefit of doubt to audio reviewers. It is easy to spot who is more reasonable if you follow their writings for a while. For eg. recently reading about the NCORE amplifier module from Hypex, one writer wrote that some companies are upset that Hypex founders have started their own company to sell finished products which will put a damper on their plans to sell the NCORE amps with fancy cases and high price tags. Even though price does not go up linearly with performance, many times, the pricing of high-end audiophile products are obnoxious. Personally, for me, having born and grown up in a poor country (India) and living half my life in the US, I still cannot get myself to spend so much on audio (even though I do some charity to some extent) because of this "obnoxious pricing". Based on my following of these high-end companies - many just push the specs wherever they can, even if they translate into improved sound or not. Sometimes, I feel they themselves do not know why it sounds better (I do know one designer mentioning this), if at all it sounds better. Working on one aspect of the system but indirectly/unexpectedly resolve some other issue. So we may have to give them some room for just "trying". How much we are willing to pay for this is a different story :-) Right now, I am enjoying music on my Newform Research R630 with only one woofer. I have to keep the speakers close the the front wall for some bass reinforcement. Just to make a point about how speaker placement/room acoustics is more important than many other things electronic. IMHO, my speakers are not very good looking and the designer is more reasonable and less "greedy" than some audio manufacturers, who would otherwise put fancy bases, industrial design on these same speakers, advertise a lot and sell for much more money. One needs to hunt for value in this world. SoftwireEngineer's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=7000 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=97950 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] psycho acoustics: the nightmare of listening tests
Mnyb wrote: > For example I'm impressed by the technology and general system > architecture used by Meridian that was probably a large factor in the > buying decision . the whole user experience matters to . I am a similar personality. I go by specs and system architecture to some extent. Just like I have a cap on what I gamble with at Las Vegas :-) I make sure I buy used and sell it after a while, if the sound does not match up to my expectations. Anyways, I think measurements can come later - first thing is - some people should come to a consensus on some physical change to the system, makes a difference to the sound. ie. establish the phenomenon, then we can look for various measurements that correlate with the phenomenon (again the "characteristic" should correlate in all other systems as well). SoftwireEngineer's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=7000 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=93380 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Music To Your Ears
We need a standard on recording/mic'ing. Only then, we can have some standard processing/filters applied to do any kinds of 3D effects or whatever. I am not sure same algorithm applied on different recording techniques will produce similar results. SoftwireEngineer's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=7000 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=97909 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] MEASUREMENTS: Some Squeezebox numbers to consider...
oh my goodness, I must be deluded :-) .. You guys need to come over to my place and blind test me :-) Anyways, this is what Stereophile has to say - "There is no consensus about what levels of jitter in a digital product's output are acceptablethe audibility will depend on both level and spectrum. Some authorities also insist that the ear will tolerate relatively high levels of jitter, up to a few nanoseconds, though that has not been the experience of this magazine's writers. But as an indicator of a product's ultimate resolution, these measurements of jitter and noise floor are illuminating. The McIntosh, PrimaLuna, and Krell are all disappointing in different ways, while the Simaudio, Meridian, Bryston, Boulder, and Ayre measurements in particular indicate the presence of some serious audio engineering talent on the staffs of these companies. " at - http://www.stereophile.com/content/case-jitters Can you do similar tests with the RMAA suite ? (BTW, what do you mean by - "Subjectively, likewise, the Touch sounds great played through the Essence 1..." ? Also, "subjectively" do you notice any difference in sound between the toslink and coax) SoftwireEngineer's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=7000 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=97950 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] MEASUREMENTS: Some Squeezebox numbers to consider...
Archimago.. this is lot of work !!! Great contribution to the board. Thx. Looking forward to see any difference in DAC output when the Touch is used as a transport with some mods applied (like TT3.0, Linear Power supply etc). SoftwireEngineer's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=7000 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=97950 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] What is the best top end player now ?
Re: double-blind testing - Earlier (10 yrs ago - before the kids) I used to have a little bit more time to play around with my system. Either, I get some friends to listen or even my wife to listen when I keep changing things (my wife has more musical skills than I do). Nowadays, too busy with kids, work and stuff. Yes, I do go back and forth and listen. A few days back, I tried squeezelite from my ubuntu laptop to my Panny receiver over HDMI. There is a slight difference between that and my SBT+Coax. BTW, I dont know what I did the last few weeks my system sounds good. I am not tempted anymore to get a high-end usb-to-coax converter (all because of coming to the forum on the news Logitech is phasing out SBes and reading about EDO :-) ) . (Ambient noise is the worst for listening. Late night system sounds good most of the time). Re: power cords and speaker cables - again long ago I did quite a bit of reading and testing with different cables. I even made my own interconnects albeit with shoddy soldering. I do know the software the guys at KimberKable and Zu are using to model the cables and the design goals. There is some benefit in these designs either for power or speaker cables. But I have not changed these cables or bought new ones in the last 5 years or so. A good twisted design using good quality copper or silver with good dielectrics is all that you need. Fancy topology like the ones from Shunyata where they charge thousands of dollars are not worth it or way out in the price-performance curve for me. Somebody mentioned here about active speakers here - I think that is the way to go. Looks like if your preamp is good, it can drive long interconnects (preferably balanced). Then the active speaker crossover is placed before the amp and the amp drives the speaker in close proximity. You lose some flexibility and the amps have to be well-isolated for vibration/microphones. If you find a good speaker, then you can 'buy and forget'. Most of the things in this hobby, is about a constant itch to upgrade or feed our shopping instinct :-) . SoftwireEngineer's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=7000 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=96407 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] What is the best top end player now ?
ralphpnj wrote: > Two things: > > First I made no statement regarding the software engineers at JPlay, > rather my statement was in reference to the various equipment designers > at some high end audio equipment manufacturers who pose as engineers. > > Second you seem to be confusing my disdain for the high end audio press > with disdain for high end audio in general. This is not the case and for > the most part I agree with much of your last paragraph. For example for > many years Krell equipment was sold with fixed (non-detectable) power > cords because their designer (engineer?) felt that the supplied power > cord was all that was needed and it was only after much pressure from > the marketing department that Krell started to offer removable power > cords. And where did that pressure come from - you guessed it - from the > CLOWNS in the high end audio press shilling for the mega-buck power cord > manufuacturers, who just happen to be one of their biggest advertisers. > Follow the money, always follow the money. > > By the way, the manufacturers are not immune to chasing money - just > check out the insane prices being charged for the "required" speaker > stands of several high priced bookshelf, i.e. stand mounted, speakers, > such as $3,000 for black metal stands for Magico speakers. Again I say: > Follow the money, always follow the money. Good to know that about Krell. It is a pity if a high-end piece of equipment changes its sonics because of the power cord. That means its own power supply is inadequate. Power supply should be 30-40% of an amps circuit. (I do use some after-market power cords with my equipment which do not have good power supply built in. My search for a Power Factor Correcting power conditioner continues. Classe talk about PFC in their CP-800). SoftwireEngineer's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=7000 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=96407 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] What is the best top end player now ?
Julf wrote: > Of course - saying "all these DACs sound the same" doesn't sell very > many issues of the magazine :) > > > > Just curious, did you set up a proper double-blind ABX test? No, I have no interest in convincing anybody of anything. I think I have the lowest priced system of all the posters in this thread (but believe the performance of my system is way high and I attribute it to my pairing it with proper accessories and "tweaks" ). I am all about price-performance. I will try anything if it is cost-effective. SoftwireEngineer's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=7000 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=96407 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] What is the best top end player now ?
Mnyb wrote: > .. > Consider active speakers ( analog or digital ) getting rid of the > passive cross over and power the drivers directly is a very real > improvement , nb some of the simpler active speakers are just passive > speakers with built in amps and sort of misses the piont with coupling > the power amp,directly to the drivers . Exactly, my thoughts. I bought the Newform Research speakers used mainly to get rid of the crossovers and power them using my TACT (but I need to get another one M2150). Check this http://www.newformresearch.com/digital-amplifier-packages.htm. There will be no expensive preamp in my setup. The DAC has to have preamp/crossover functions (like the NAD M51). More than all these I am thinking of a separate AV room in a bigger house. Lets see when I can make that happen. SoftwireEngineer's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=7000 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=96407 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] What is the best top end player now ?
Mnyb wrote: > Nice ! Have a look at thier other measurement to in their data section > under the D2 product . It clearly shows better performance in all areas > than Touch , price similar to benchmark and actually a bit lower not > cheap but not silly . > Really solid performance if true ( any independt measurements done ). > > I never heard of the brand , how is the reputation regarding quality and > repair and waranty handling , for how long have they been > > Are you planning change amp didn't you have a completely " digital " > Panasonic ,where does the DAC fit in that setup ? Yes, currently, a DAC cannot be used in my setup. Just SBT-> coax -> Panasonic -> bi-amp-> speakers. But I am considering new speakers and thinking about DACs like the NAD M51. Wondering what the folks here think is a reasonably priced DAC (surely not the ones jh suggests :-) ) SoftwireEngineer's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=7000 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=96407 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
