subject:"\[SlimDevices\: Audiophiles\] How low is low\?"


magiccarpetride;688500 Wrote: 
> OK, good thing it's Friday, and you have the entire weekend ahead of
> you. Take it easy, get a lot of rest, drink a lot of liquids, and in
> general, relax and recuperate. We'll see you on Monday, and I'm sure
> the buzzing in your head will all get cleared up by then.
> 
> Cheers!

Thanks doctor. I'll be very happy to ignore you now you've attempted
humor in the face of ignoring the rest of us.


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Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] How low is low?


pski;688496 Wrote: 
> Prepare to be surprised !
> 
> Read up on this thread !
> 
> There was once a proposal for a new diacritical mark. It was called the
> interobang and was the combination of an exclamation point and a
> question mark. Here's what it meant to imply:
> 
> WTF?
> 
> I really think the idea was ahead of it's time.
> 
> So here's a more modern proposal: Choose  of two
> characters put together. I'll wait
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> OK, it means "whatever !"
> 
> no initial indicated.

OK, good thing it's Friday, and you have the entire weekend ahead of
you. Take it easy, get a lot of rest, drink a lot of liquids, and in
general, relax and recuperate. We'll see you on Monday, and I'm sure
the buzzing in your head will all get cleared up by then.

Cheers!


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Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] How low is low?


magiccarpetride;688495 Wrote: 
> I'd be surprised if piano players ever stopped to think what's the hz of
> the note they just played.

Prepare to be surprised !

Read up on this thread !

There was once a proposal for a new diacritical mark. It was called the
interobang and was the combination of an exclamation point and a
question mark. Here's what it meant to imply:

WTF?

I really think the idea was ahead of it's time.

So here's a more modern proposal: Choose  of two
characters put together. I'll wait





OK, it means "whatever !"

no initial indicated.


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Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] How low is low?


pski;688492 Wrote: 
> Actually, no.
> 
> My population there would me more like people who understand what a hz
> is.
> 
> As you can see, piano players know better.
> 
> p

I'd be surprised if piano players ever stopped to think what's the hz
of the note they just played.


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Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] How low is low?


magiccarpetride;688443 Wrote: 
> Surprising to whom? Piano players?

Actually, no.

My population there would me more like people who understand what a hz
is.

As you can see, piano players know better.

p


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Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] How low is low?


cunobelinus;688482 Wrote: 
> On 3 Feb 2012, at 21:14, Phil Leigh wrote:
> 
> > 
> > magiccarpetride;688443 Wrote: 
> >> Surprising to whom? Piano players?
> > 
> > I think he means people like SBGK whose systems roll off at well
> above
> > that...
> > 
> Much more likely that than piano players, don't you think? They'd all
> know, and most soloists would be well aware that, as I posted a couple
> of days ago, the special order Bösendorfer (the Imperial?) goes down to
> C0 or 16Hz, as can 't - common as muck in 't brass band - tuba in the
> right hands, although the usual tuba pedal note is a major 3rd higher
> at 20Hz E0.

+1

The sound that touches

Sometimes she does a good job 

P


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Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] How low is low?

2012-02-03 Thread cunobelinus


On 3 Feb 2012, at 21:14, Phil Leigh wrote:

> 
> magiccarpetride;688443 Wrote: 
>> Surprising to whom? Piano players?
> 
> I think he means people like SBGK whose systems roll off at well above
> that...
> 
Much more likely that than piano players, don't you think? They'd all know, and 
most soloists would be well aware that, as I posted a couple of days ago, the 
special order Bösendorfer (the Imperial?) goes down to C0 or 16Hz, as can 't - 
common as muck in 't brass band - tuba in the right hands, although the usual 
tuba pedal note is a major 3rd higher at 20Hz E0.
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Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] How low is low?

2012-02-03 Thread Phil Leigh


magiccarpetride;688443 Wrote: 
> Surprising to whom? Piano players?

I think he means people like SBGK whose systems roll off at well above
that...


-- 
Phil Leigh

You want to see the signal path BEFORE it gets onto a CD/vinyl...it
ain't what you'd call minimal...
Touch(wired/W7)+Teddy Pardo PSU - Audiolense 3.3/2.0+INGUZ DRC - MF M1
DAC - Linn 5103 - full Aktiv 5.1 system (6x LK140's,
ESPEK/TRIKAN/KATAN/SEIZMIK 10.5), Pekin Tuner, Townsend
Supertweeters,VdH Toslink,Kimber 8TC Speaker & Chord Signature Plus
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Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] How low is low?


pski;688419 Wrote: 
> It might be surprising that the low A on a piano is 27.5 hz

Surprising to whom? Piano players?


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Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] How low is low?


It might be surprising that the low A on a piano is 27.5 hz


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Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] How low is low?


TiredLegs;688202 Wrote: 
> Also, the fact that your speakers are specified to 40 Hz does not mean
> that they have zero output below that frequency, it just means that the
> output below that frequency is reduced below whatever threshold they use
> in their spec. (The response falloff isn't necessarily a cliff.)

Nah. It's all in the mind, you know.


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Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] How low is low?

2012-02-03 Thread adamdea

cunobelinus;688085 Wrote: 
> On 2 Feb 2012, at 13:50, Jeff Flowerday wrote:
> 
> > Down to what hz can you actually hear at 8ft?
> 
> Hearing is the least of it at these pitches. It's not the only sense
> involved. Profound bass is primarily felt. However, the answer to the
> question is about 12-14Hz.
> > 
> > How much music actually has much content below say 35hz?  The low E
> > string on the electric bass is about 40hz correct?
> 
> A lot. You can't get a convincing impression of much church/classical
> organ, low percussion, low strings and low brass (I'm talking about
> acoustic music here) - so most orchestral music of the last 200 years -
> without subsonic reproduction, despite the nominal 41Hz low on a double
> bass/ electric bass. That's actually not that low, as instruments go.
> 
> Wagner specified C1 low for parts of the Ring - that's 31Hz. Lowest
> note on a tuba, the Royal Festival Hall Organ (refurbished) and a
> Bosendorfer Grand is 16Hz. A 64 ft organ pipe (Royal Albert Hall) goes
> to 8Hz at which it is inaudible, but sets the seats - and chests -
> vibrating. The routine bass drum is probably about the same, and as a
> former orchestral percussionist, (and rock drummer, for that matter), I
> want to feel the shock wave when I'm listening to the audio as I did
> when I hit one.
> 
> Some synthesised music is at least as low, which must indicate an
> intention of being felt as well as heard. I now can't recall the lowest
> I measured sound on "Mirrorball" (Sarah McLachlan) when I was using a
> sub, but it was certainly way below 25Hz, and a lot louder to an SPL at
> that range than my ears heard it - although the chest was buzzing away
> nicely in sympathy. It's nothing like the same listening to it without
> the sub. I really must get it out and set it up with the Quads.

I would just like to add to this that although strings do not naturally
produce undertones in the same way that they do overtones, undertones
are apparently produced by the resonance of the body of instruments.
That would explain why having a sub seems to make acoustic instruments
like cellos and pianos seem more convincing.

I'm sorry to keep banging on about this but I simply can't understand
why anyone who cares about hifi would want to miss out on the bottom
octave. It's not foo it's absolutely  basic uncontroversial fact that
you can hear down to 20Hz. AFAIK the bottom range does not decline with
age (or if it does is doesn't do so dramatically) unlike to upper
limit.

Just think of the amount of time people spend arguing on this forum
that the operating system of your server or whatever just might
possibly affect the sound coming out of their speakers: I bet at least
half of them have speakers that only go down to 40-50hZ!
rgh.

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Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] How low is low?


On 3 Feb 2012, at 00:35, cunobeli...@mac.com wrote:

> 
> On 2 Feb 2012, at 23:48, pski wrote:
> 
>> 
>> TiredLegs;688202 Wrote: 
>>> Also, the fact that your speakers are specified to 40 Hz does not mean
>>> that they have zero output below that frequency, it just means that the
>>> output below that frequency is reduced below whatever threshold they use
>>> in their spec. (The response falloff isn't necessarily a cliff.)
>> 
>> +1
>> 
>> As well, the sound at the "bottom" is important. Does the speaker "drop
>> off like a rock" or "make a graceful exit" rather than burp and fart?
>> There's a little subjective issue here.
>> 
>> Where the speakers sit in the room and whether the amp has enough are
>> the questions. Expected volume is the other variable. 
> 
> My LS3/5As specified a frequency response down to about 70Hz, +/-3db (I think 
> - long time since I've looked at the spec). They measured as having a 
> diminishing but still very significant output down to 45-50Hz or so, when it 
> tailed rapidly off.
> 
> My sub was set to start rolling off at 40Hz (I now find, checking the 
> settings) and did so at a rate of 12db per octave up to 240Hz, 24db per 
> octave above that. The result was a pretty flat response up to 300Hz when the 
> test signals I was using gave out. But that's using only an SPL, and as has 
> been pointed out, the presence of loud distortions around the measured 
> frequency, especially low down, make that only a very rough guide. Still a 
> useful start for tweaking though.

That should have been "the combined result was a pretty flat response" etc etc.

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Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] How low is low?

On 2 Feb 2012, at 23:48, pski wrote:

> 
> TiredLegs;688202 Wrote: 
>> Also, the fact that your speakers are specified to 40 Hz does not mean
>> that they have zero output below that frequency, it just means that the
>> output below that frequency is reduced below whatever threshold they use
>> in their spec. (The response falloff isn't necessarily a cliff.)
> 
> +1
> 
> As well, the sound at the "bottom" is important. Does the speaker "drop
> off like a rock" or "make a graceful exit" rather than burp and fart?
> There's a little subjective issue here.
> 
> Where the speakers sit in the room and whether the amp has enough are
> the questions. Expected volume is the other variable. 

My LS3/5As specified a frequency response down to about 70Hz, +/-3db (I think - 
long time since I've looked at the spec). They measured as having a diminishing 
but still very significant output down to 45-50Hz or so, when it tailed rapidly 
off.

My sub was set to start rolling off at 40Hz (I now find, checking the settings) 
and did so at a rate of 12db per octave up to 240Hz, 24db per octave above 
that. The result was a pretty flat response up to 300Hz when the test signals I 
was using gave out. But that's using only an SPL, and as has been pointed out, 
the presence of loud distortions around the measured frequency, especially low 
down, make that only a very rough guide. Still a useful start for tweaking 
though.
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Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] How low is low?


TiredLegs;688202 Wrote: 
> Also, the fact that your speakers are specified to 40 Hz does not mean
> that they have zero output below that frequency, it just means that the
> output below that frequency is reduced below whatever threshold they use
> in their spec. (The response falloff isn't necessarily a cliff.)

+1

As well, the sound at the "bottom" is important. Does the speaker "drop
off like a rock" or "make a graceful exit" rather than burp and fart?
There's a little subjective issue here.

Where the speakers sit in the room and whether the amp has enough are
the questions. Expected volume is the other variable. 

P


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Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] How low is low?

2012-02-02 Thread darrenyeats


pski;688151 Wrote: 
> I did this test on my recent ScanSpeak build and the pink noise raising
> 71db, there was a jump from 84 to 88db at 35hz. Madisound had said Bass
> Box 6 Pro predicted an F3 of 35.5hz. I guess the ScanSpeak specs are
> fairly accurate.
> 
> Interestingly (it can only be environmental) the speakers gained a
> db/hz from  10-17hz (83db to 89db) and then retreated back to 84db at
> 24hz where it stayed until 35hz. I think basically represents the
> source (SBR) coming out of the basement to reasonable frequencies.
> 
> The measures were done with the SBR volume at 100% and attached to an
> Adcom GFP-565.
> 
> p
SPL meters are good as on overall guide. But bear in mind the SPL meter
measures the total SPL, not the SPL at the frequency you happen to be
interested in. For example, for a 10Hz input tone there will be a lot
of distortion output so the measurement isn't just for the 10Hz
fundamental...
Darren


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Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] How low is low?


On 2 Feb 2012, at 15:43, pski wrote:

> 
> cunobelinus;688016 Wrote: 
>> 
>> You could check the roll off, if you wanted to, using this:
>> 
>> http://www.realtraps.com/test-cd.htm
>> 
>> and a Radioshack SPL. Only a rough guide but might be interesting
>> nevertheless.
> 
> A bit of missing in the link: Where do you set the SPL meter to test
> the pink noise?
> 
> P
> 
I hope I've posted the right link: it should have been to a series of equal 
volume test tones increasing by 1Hz a time from 10-300Hz, although the set does 
include a pink noise file as well, which I didn't use, so I'm afraid that I 
can't answer that.

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Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] How low is low?


darrenyeats;688185 Wrote: 
> Bear in mind the SPL meter measures the total SPL, not the SPL at the
> frequency you happen to be interested in. For example, for a 10Hz input
> tone there will be a lot of distortion output so the measurement doesn't
> describe just the 10Hz fundamental...
> Darren

I call it "environment." 

It's a sad story of fried amps but a nearly happy ending: 

When I first got my infinity speakers, they replaced bi-amped DCM Time
Windows/Bases. The first hook-up sounded so good I gave 'em a lot of
wrapped dollars in a strawberry basket.

After I'd slept, and after I'd fried my GFA-1, and after I'd borrowed a
GFA-555 , and after I had a
walk outside behind the speakers, I realized that having 3 feet behind
the speaker wasn't the issue. I had to deal with the square faced house
next door. The bass to the rear was not impeded by my 1950's
construction.

To make a long story short, long live active crossovers ! They can make
your house sound better 

p


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Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] How low is low?

2012-02-02 Thread Phil Leigh


adamdea;688091 Wrote: 
> I don;t really understand what you mean by "at 8ft". You can hear down
> to 20Hz. Are you asking whether it is possible to generate frequencies
> below a certain level in an 8ft room? I don;t know the answer to that
> question but I think so. If there is a limitation I think it it will
> depend on the constrction and all the dimensions of the room too. 
> 
> Funnily enough loads of people have equipment that doesn;t reproduce
> that low but don't seem to care.
> 
> cf upper hearing range = 20kHz and yet loads of people want reocrdings
> with information above that level.
> 
> Beats the hell out of me.

realistically, if you are over c. 45 or have attended many loud rock
concerts, or played in a  rock band and stood anywhere near the drummer
or the PA or a Marshall stack on full tilt or listen to iPods a lot at
high volumes your hearing is rolling off from max 12Khz to a scary
7-10kHz!


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ain't what you'd call minimal...
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Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] How low is low?

2012-02-02 Thread darrenyeats

I don't think there's a lower limit based on room dimensions. However,
smaller dimensions mean room modes at higher frequencies (and harmonics
more spaced out and therefore noticeable) which make it harder to notice
the deeper sfuff. Standing waves are caused by reflections: damp the
bass and the reflections are tamed, reducing the standing wave effect -
so yes, treatments can help.

As for the importance of a sub, I think the common sense answer is it
depends on what kind of music you like. All speakers are far more
effective producing deep bass in-room than free standing (which is
where the specs are measured). Another common sense answer, don't
choose loudspeakers by specs or at least not by specs alone. Reading my
ATC brochure was an eye opener: it discusses nine distinct types of
loudspeaker distortion. This is surely an incomplete list yet no
current speaker has zero distortion in these nine aspects. Which
trade-offs are chosen and to what degree depends on the designer. Don't
chase x Hz at -6db specs! It's much much more complicated than that
because psychoacoustics is still not well understood. (Line level us so
much easier to measure and compare performance-wise.)

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Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] How low is low?

2012-02-02 Thread adamdea


Jeff Flowerday;688058 Wrote: 
> I knew I should have been much more specific, my mistake for putting my
> speaker specs in the post.
> 
> I wasn't asking for speaker placement advice, I wasn't asking for sub
> suggestions and I wasn't asking about room treatment.
> 
> What is the math, giving my current speaker position and listening
> position?  Or any for that matter.
> 
> Down to what hz can you actually hear at 8ft?
> 
> How much music actually has much content below say 35hz?  The low E
> string on the electric bass is about 40hz correct?
> 
> 
I don;t really understand what you mean by "at 8ft". You can hear down
to 20Hz. Are you asking whether it is possible to generate frequencies
below a certain level in an 8ft room? I don;t know the answer to that
question but I think so. If there is a limitation I think it it will
depend on the constrction and all the dimensions of the room too. 

Funnily enough loads of people have equipment that doesn;t reproduce
that low but don't seem to care.

cf upper hearing range = 20kHz and yet loads of people want reocrdings
with information above that level.

Beats the hell out of me.


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Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] How low is low?

2012-02-02 Thread TiredLegs


magiccarpetride;688107 Wrote: 
> There seems to be a lot of so-called psycho acoustics at play regarding
> these things. For example, my Maggies are spec-ed  at going down to 40
> hz. However, when I play "Another Brick In The Wall" by Pink Floyd, I
> can hear, loud and clear, the low D on the detuned bass guitar. And the
> low D is vibrating at 36 hz. So what gives?
> 
> A friend explained to me that I'm actually hearing the higher octave
> harmonic of that low D, and in my head I paint the picture and
> reconstruct the actual sound. So apparently the brain plays all kinds
> of trickery on us while we're listening...
Also, the fact that your speakers are specified to 40 Hz does not mean
that they have zero output below that frequency, it just means that the
output below that frequency is reduced below whatever threshold they use
in their spec. (The response falloff isn't necessarily a cliff.)


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Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] How low is low?


cunobelinus;688016 Wrote: 
> On 2 Feb 2012, at 03:13, Jeff Flowerday wrote:
> 
> > 
> > My current floor standing speakers are +-3db to 40hz but will extend
> > down to 33hz as per specifications.  Who knows how much roll off.
> 
> You could check the roll off, if you wanted to, using this:
> 
> http://www.realtraps.com/test-cd.htm
> 
> and a Radioshack SPL. Only a rough guide but might be interesting
> nevertheless.

A bit of missing in the link: Where do you set the SPL meter to test
the pink noise?

P


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Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] How low is low?

cunobelinus;688016 Wrote: 
> On 2 Feb 2012, at 03:13, Jeff Flowerday wrote:
> 
> > 
> > My current floor standing speakers are +-3db to 40hz but will extend
> > down to 33hz as per specifications.  Who knows how much roll off.
> 
> You could check the roll off, if you wanted to, using this:
> 
> http://www.realtraps.com/test-cd.htm
> 
> and a Radioshack SPL. Only a rough guide but might be interesting
> nevertheless.

I did this test on my recent ScanSpeak build and the pink noise raising
71db, there was a jump from 84 to 88db at 35hz. Madisound had said Bass
Box 6 Pro predicted an F3 of 35.5hz. I guess the ScanSpeak specs are
fairly accurate.

Interestingly (it can only be environmental) the speakers gained a
db/hz from  10-17hz (83db to 89db) and then retreated back to 84db at
24hz where it stayed until 35hz.

p

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Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] How low is low?

2012-02-02 Thread garym


magiccarpetride;688107 Wrote: 
> So apparently the brain plays all kinds of trickery on us while we're
> listening...

As people on this forum have been trying to explain to you for quite a
while.


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Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] How low is low?

2012-02-02 Thread adamdea


Jeff Flowerday;688098 Wrote: 
> Does the 56ft wave length @ 20Hz not play into things when you are only
> 8 feet from the source?  You might be feeling it but your probably not
> really hearing it, or am I wrong.

Err I'm not quite sure about this but i think that if your room is
entirely rigid then the minimum frequency you can play is one which has
a wavelength 4 times the largest dimension. 
a. I assume your room is not 8x8x8
b. you don't have to be able to fit one wavelength in, (think of the
symmetries)
c. if the walls are not perfectly rgid (eg stud partitions) then the
waves may just pass straight through so the room from the point of view
of bass notes is bigger than the room as you see it.

This is kind of from memory but i'm sure there will be someone along
who knows what they are talking about.

Ofd cpurse the dimensions of the room will create all sorts of  peaks
and nulls. With DRC my room has reasonably flat bass response beklow
30hZ and above 40Hz but i have a null around 30-40Hz which I cannot
fill. I assume this is somethign to do with negative interference of a
stadning wave. Perhaps acoustic treatments would help.


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Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] How low is low?

2012-02-02 Thread magiccarpetride


Jeff Flowerday;687976 Wrote: 
> One of the other threads had some discussions in regards to low end and
> indications that you may or may not be missing something if your
> speakers or speakers plus subwoofer won't go down to 25-35hz.
> 
> My current floor standing speakers are +-3db to 40hz but will extend
> down to 33hz as per specifications.  Who knows how much roll off.
> 
> How does room size and position from speaker play into it?  I'm
> currently sitting about 8-9ft from my speakers with just under 8ft
> between them.

There seems to be a lot of so-called psycho acoustics at play regarding
these things. For example, my Maggies are spec-ed  at going down to 40
hz. However, when I play "Another Brick In The Wall" by Pink Floyd, I
can hear, loud and clear, the low D on the detuned bass guitar. And the
low D is vibrating at 36 hz. So what gives?

A friend explained to me that I'm actually hearing the higher octave
harmonic of that low D, and in my head I paint the picture and
reconstruct the actual sound. So apparently the brain plays all kinds
of trickery on us while we're listening...


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Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] How low is low?

2012-02-02 Thread magiccarpetride


garym;688110 Wrote: 
> As people on this forum have been trying to explain to you for quite a
> while.

Oh, I thought it was just my brain playing trickery on me.


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Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] How low is low?


pski;688082 Wrote: 
> Jeff,
> 
> You gave the roll off. While the makers may say +-3db, it's almost
> always minus. This is also known as F3 and it's the frequency where the
> output has dropped by half (over simplified.) Each 3db doubles (or
> halves) the output so F6 would be 1/4 of the output, F9 would be 1/8 of
> the output.
> 
> I say this is over-simplified because at low frequencies (like everyone
> else has said,) room dynamics can damp or enhance bass response.
> 
> When it comes to position, check the instructions to see how far from
> the walls the maker recommends. This placement has a direct effect on
> bass response. If they are closer than 12-18 inches, they are probably
> suffering. How far apart and how far away has more of a stereo imaging
> effect.
> 
> P

I've got my speakers almost 2 feet from the side walls and over 3ft
from the back wall.  There's not much I can do without getting them too
close together to get a nice stereo image.


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Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] How low is low?


adamdea;688091 Wrote: 
> I don;t really understand what you mean by "at 8ft". You can hear down
> to 20Hz. Are you asking whether it is possible to generate frequencies
> below a certain level in an 8ft room? I don;t know the answer to that
> question but I think so. If there is a limitation I think it it will
> depend on the constrction and all the dimensions of the room too. 
> 
> Funnily enough loads of people have equipment that doesn;t reproduce
> that low but don't seem to care.
> 
> cf upper hearing range = 20kHz and yet loads of people want reocrdings
> with information above that level.
> 
> Beats the hell out of me.

Does the 56ft wave length @ 20Hz not play into things when you are only
8 feet from the source?  You might be feeling it but your probably not
really hearing it, or am I wrong.


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Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] How low is low?


Phil Leigh;688095 Wrote: 
> realistically, if you are over c. 45 or have attended many loud rock
> concerts, or played in a  rock band and stood anywhere near the drummer
> or the PA or a Marshall stack on full tilt or listen to iPods a lot at
> high volumes your hearing is rolling off from max 12Khz to a scary
> 7-10kHz!


I've don't some tests I'm down to about 12kHz and dropping fast. :(


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Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] How low is low?

On 2 Feb 2012, at 13:50, Jeff Flowerday wrote:

> Down to what hz can you actually hear at 8ft?

Hearing is the least of it at these pitches. It's not the only sense involved. 
Profound bass is primarily felt. However, the answer to the question is about 
12-14Hz.
> 
> How much music actually has much content below say 35hz?  The low E
> string on the electric bass is about 40hz correct?

A lot. You can't get a convincing impression of much church/classical organ, 
low percussion, low strings and low brass (I'm talking about acoustic music 
here) - so most orchestral music of the last 200 years - without subsonic 
reproduction, despite the nominal 41Hz low on a double bass/ electric bass. 
That's actually not that low, as instruments go.

Wagner specified C1 low for parts of the Ring - that's 31Hz. Lowest note on a 
tuba, the Royal Festival Hall Organ (refurbished) and a Bosendorfer Grand is 
16Hz. A 64 ft organ pipe (Royal Albert Hall) goes to 8Hz at which it is 
inaudible, but sets the seats - and chests - vibrating. The routine bass drum 
is probably about the same, and as a former orchestral percussionist, (and rock 
drummer, for that matter), I want to feel the shock wave when I'm listening to 
the audio as I did when I hit one.

Some synthesised music is at least as low, which must indicate an intention of 
being felt as well as heard. I now can't recall the lowest I measured sound on 
"Mirrorball" (Sarah McLachlan) when I was using a sub, but it was certainly way 
below 25Hz, and a lot louder to an SPL at that range than my ears heard it - 
although the chest was buzzing away nicely in sympathy. It's nothing like the 
same listening to it without the sub. I really must get it out and set it up 
with the Quads.

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Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] How low is low?


Jeff Flowerday;687976 Wrote: 
> 
> 
> My current floor standing speakers are +-3db to 40hz but will extend
> down to 33hz as per specifications.  Who knows how much roll off.
> 
> 

Jeff,

You gave the roll off. While the makers may say +-3db, it's almost
always minus. This is also known as F3 and it's the frequency where the
output has dropped by half (over simplified.) Each 3db doubles (or
halves) the output so F6 would be 1/4 of the output, F9 would be 1/8 of
the output.

I say this is over-simplified because at low frequencies (like everyone
else has said,) room dynamics can damp or enhance bass response.

When it comes to position, check the instructions to see how far from
the walls the maker recommends. This placement has a direct effect on
bass response. If they are closer than 12-18 inches, they are probably
suffering. How far apart and how far away has more of a stereo imaging
effect.

P


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Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] How low is low?


I knew I should have been much more specific... 

I wasn't asking for speaker placement advice, I wasn't asking for sub
suggestions and I wasn't asking about room treatment.

What is the math, giving my current speaker position and listening
position?  Or any for that matter.

Down to what hz can you actually hear at 8ft?

How much music actually has much content below say 35hz?  The low E
string on the electric bass is about 40hz correct?


Off topic:
I know that 99% of my music doesn't have anything much lower than what
the speakers can handle.  My Krell amp has loads of power and amazing
control in the lower registers, very seldom do I actually hear it
pushing the speakers to a point that they can no longer handle.  I have
as much treatment as I can do in my situation, and I can tell when the
speakers are losing control pretty easily.  Any more bass in my room
would get out of control.


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Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] How low is low?