Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Is anybody sick of the recent spate of threads?
cliveb wrote: > Darren, could you explain how you got those waveforms? As far as I can > see, they are screen shots from an audio editor, which presumably means > that you recorded the output of the DAC to a WAV file via a soundcard. > > Is it possible that the obvious clipping we see in the second waveform > might have been introduced by the soundcard at the recording stage, > rather than in the DAC during playback? To be sure that this isn't > happening, you'd need to attenuate the DAC output in the analog domain > before recording it. Did you do that? Clive, exactly four years later I notice I didn't reply! The answer is the second waveform is simply the original samples at 44kHz. The conclusion that the Benchmark DAC1 and others digitally clip is not proven by the two screenshots, it's shown elsewhere - the screenshots are just to illustrate the intersample overs you would be clipping with any DAC that does digitally clip. Some people say such inter-sample overs are few and hard to spot without heavy zooming, but this music shows the difference can be be seen easily throughout, at whole-track scale, with some recordings. Check it, add to it! http://www.dr.loudness-war.info/ SB Touch darrenyeats's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=10799 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=103842 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Is anybody sick of the recent spate of threads?
darrenyeats wrote: > > I have to check whether the [flac] part is really necessary, I added it > in whilst fiddling, once I fixed the sox part I didn't try taking out > the flac again! I'll report back if no-one else does. Cut down version indeed works: Code: flc flc * * [sox] -q -t flac - -t flac -C 0 $RESAMPLE$ - gain -33 dither Check it, add to it! http://www.dr.loudness-war.info/ SB Touch darrenyeats's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=10799 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=103842 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Is anybody sick of the recent spate of threads?
Julf wrote: > Indeed. Many of the more advanced DACs have pretty good DSP capabilities > these days, but the problem is that many of the high-end "designers" > don't have the skill and capabilities to actually program them, so they > prefer "just connect some exotic external components and put it all in > an expensive-looking box" hardware solutions. Mobile phones are designed > by real engineers who actually develop software and hardware. Aha the "lets stick some tubes in it" solution :) that's why I refer to this as cargo cult engineering . I suspect that the chip vendors reference application is running in those chips , this may not be adapted to real world problems. Or if one is cynical if you can get some fraction of dB more to meet a design goal. To impress those who are impressed with specs . Why not . And the audiophiles will hear whatever they imagine anyway ,just design the product impressive enough and tick some boxes like impressive mechanical build oversized linear psu etc Main hifi: Touch + CIA PS +MeridianG68J MeridianHD621 MeridianG98DH 2 x MeridianDSP5200 MeridianDSP5200HC 2 xMeridianDSP3100 +Rel Stadium 3 sub. Bedroom/Office: Boom Kitchen: Touch + powered Fostex PM0.4 Misc use: Radio (with battery) iPad1 with iPengHD & SqueezePad (spares Touch, SB3, reciever ,controller ) server HP proliant micro server N36L with ClearOS Linux http://people.xiph.org/~xiphmont/demo/neil-young.html Mnyb's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=4143 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=103842 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Is anybody sick of the recent spate of threads?
Mnyb wrote: > Funny enough i suspect a phone can best many DAC's in this regards as > they seems to have some really cool DSP onboard (in fact i think my > phone beats my first DAC in every other aspect as well ... ) Indeed. Many of the more advanced DACs have pretty good DSP capabilities these days, but the problem is that many of the high-end "designers" don't have the skill and capabilities to actually program them, so they prefer "just connect some exotic external components and put it all in an expensive-looking box" hardware solutions. Mobile phones are designed by real engineers who actually develop software and hardware. "To try to judge the real from the false will always be hard. In this fast-growing art of 'high fidelity' the quackery will bear a solid gilt edge that will fool many people" - Paul W Klipsch, 1953 Julf's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=42050 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=103842 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Is anybody sick of the recent spate of threads?
darrenyeats wrote: > Julf, for me the money shot is here: > http://www.pinkfishmedia.net/forum/showpost.php?p=1990168&postcount=11 Darren, could you explain how you got those waveforms? As far as I can see, they are screen shots from an audio editor, which presumably means that you recorded the output of the DAC to a WAV file via a soundcard. Is it possible that the obvious clipping we see in the second waveform might have been introduced by the soundcard at the recording stage, rather than in the DAC during playback? To be sure that this isn't happening, you'd need to attenuate the DAC output in the analog domain before recording it. Did you do that? Transporter -> ATC SCM100A cliveb's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=348 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=103842 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Is anybody sick of the recent spate of threads?
Julf wrote: > And as I keep saying, having the headroom (given the word length of > modern DSP architectures) is not hard. Julf, I agree totally! Should never happen. See http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?98661-Some-observations-about-the-Benchmark-DAC1/page2&highlight= see post 13 and 18 onwards where Archimago confirms the same issue for his TEAC UD-501. As Mynb astutely points out, why is Benchmark making a song and dance about it for the DAC2? Perhaps the problem is much more common than it should be? Darren Check it, add to it! http://www.dr.loudness-war.info/ SB Touch darrenyeats's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=10799 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=103842 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Is anybody sick of the recent spate of threads?
Julf wrote: > If they actually cared about real differences - but that would scare > away advertisers. Remember it is the advertisers, not the subscribers, > that pay for the audiorags. > > > > Indeed. And as I keep saying, having the headroom (given the word length > of modern DSP architectures) is not hard. Yes but are these ovesampling filter chips in most DAC really DSP processors, they where not in the past they where som hardware implementation ? DSP would be floating point at some incredible rate and software then just output to some word length suitable for the DAC chip ? then all is well :) Funny enough i suspect a phone can best many DAC's in this regards as they seems to have some really cool DSP onboard (in fact i think my phone beats my first DAC in every other aspect as well ... ) Main hifi: Touch + CIA PS +MeridianG68J MeridianHD621 MeridianG98DH 2 x MeridianDSP5200 MeridianDSP5200HC 2 xMeridianDSP3100 +Rel Stadium 3 sub. Bedroom/Office: Boom Kitchen: Touch + powered Fostex PM0.4 Misc use: Radio (with battery) iPad1 with iPengHD & SqueezePad (spares Touch, SB3, reciever ,controller ) server HP proliant micro server N36L with ClearOS Linux http://people.xiph.org/~xiphmont/demo/neil-young.html Mnyb's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=4143 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=103842 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Is anybody sick of the recent spate of threads?
Mnyb wrote: > Yea but is it ? that would be something for audiorags to actually test? If they actually cared about real differences - but that would scare away advertisers. Remember it is the advertisers, not the subscribers, that pay for the audiorags. > But imho stuff should have healthy headroom . Just like a preamp should > not collapse at 1.0-2.0 volts (yes they exist ) some robustness against > the digital version this is proper design ,again imo Indeed. And as I keep saying, having the headroom (given the word length of modern DSP architectures) is not hard. "To try to judge the real from the false will always be hard. In this fast-growing art of 'high fidelity' the quackery will bear a solid gilt edge that will fool many people" - Paul W Klipsch, 1953 Julf's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=42050 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=103842 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Is anybody sick of the recent spate of threads?
Julf wrote: > Indeed, and yes, intersample peaks are an issue with older DACs, but I > would expect modern designs to deal with it - it is pretty easy to do, > after all. Yea but is it ? that would be something for audiorags to actually test ? there are actually some old AES pappers on it on the net it was done some decade ago . they scoped up some consumer devices to test that showed this problem ,given that many brands uses the same chips as any one else , we really have just a few of them so the problems was widespread then ? So yes I think its safe to assume it's a real problem . Given that benchmark has it as a selling point in 2015 I wonder how often it's accounted for in the competition ? New test for audiomagazines overload the filter :) (I saw some hydrogen audio tread where some dude had managed to get such peaks at +11dB ) You can always turn the argument around why . It's actually the recordings that are broken ? But imho stuff should have healthy headroom . Just like a preamp should not collapse at 1.0-2.0 volts (yes they exist ) some robustness against the digital version this is proper design ,again imo Main hifi: Touch + CIA PS +MeridianG68J MeridianHD621 MeridianG98DH 2 x MeridianDSP5200 MeridianDSP5200HC 2 xMeridianDSP3100 +Rel Stadium 3 sub. Bedroom/Office: Boom Kitchen: Touch + powered Fostex PM0.4 Misc use: Radio (with battery) iPad1 with iPengHD & SqueezePad (spares Touch, SB3, reciever ,controller ) server HP proliant micro server N36L with ClearOS Linux http://people.xiph.org/~xiphmont/demo/neil-young.html Mnyb's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=4143 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=103842 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Is anybody sick of the recent spate of threads?
darrenyeats wrote: > Julf, for me the money shot is here: > http://www.pinkfishmedia.net/forum/showpost.php?p=1990168&postcount=11 > > It is far from a single cycle in the example given. It's a macro-effect > easily seen even at whole-track scale. It also happens to be one of my > favourite albums, not an extreme outlier I googled or anything. > Darren OK, I admit - that is definitely a convincing case. The track might not be an outlier, but the DAC is. So yes, if you have a DAC that has absolutely no headroom, then pre-scaling might be a good idea. "To try to judge the real from the false will always be hard. In this fast-growing art of 'high fidelity' the quackery will bear a solid gilt edge that will fool many people" - Paul W Klipsch, 1953 Julf's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=42050 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=103842 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Is anybody sick of the recent spate of threads?
Julf, for me the money shot is here: http://www.pinkfishmedia.net/forum/showpost.php?p=1990168&postcount=11 It is far from a single cycle in the example given. It's a macro-effect easily visible even at whole-track scale! Darren Check it, add to it! http://www.dr.loudness-war.info/ SB Touch darrenyeats's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=10799 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=103842 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Is anybody sick of the recent spate of threads?
darrenyeats wrote: > Julf, I have a DAC1. Set up the right way anyway, it's still a good > DAC. > http://www.pinkfishmedia.net/forum/showthread.php?t=137152 I have to agree with the comments from Werner in that thread. "To try to judge the real from the false will always be hard. In this fast-growing art of 'high fidelity' the quackery will bear a solid gilt edge that will fool many people" - Paul W Klipsch, 1953 Julf's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=42050 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=103842 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Is anybody sick of the recent spate of threads?
Julf, I have a DAC1. Set up the right way anyway, it's still a good DAC. http://www.pinkfishmedia.net/forum/showthread.php?t=137152 Check it, add to it! http://www.dr.loudness-war.info/ SB Touch darrenyeats's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=10799 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=103842 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Is anybody sick of the recent spate of threads?
Mnyb wrote: > Do you remeber our tread about "intersample overs" not many DAC > especially older ones shave not acounted for this effect Indeed, and yes, intersample peaks are an issue with older DACs, but I would expect modern designs to deal with it - it is pretty easy to do, after all. "To try to judge the real from the false will always be hard. In this fast-growing art of 'high fidelity' the quackery will bear a solid gilt edge that will fool many people" - Paul W Klipsch, 1953 Julf's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=42050 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=103842 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Is anybody sick of the recent spate of threads?
Mnyb wrote: > Do you remeber our tread about "intersample overs" not many DAC > especially older ones shave not acounted for this effect , which in turn > is an artefact of modern record producing . > DAC mfg is often hunting specs so even if some filters alows for gain > adjustments in theri parameters you get better snr if you don't :) so > they just assume perfect recordings This relates to the function of the newest Benchmark DAC, the DAC2. Pasted below is their brief discussion in their advertising. I think there is a longer discussion somewhere on their website. (I'm not claiming any of this is correct, as I don't knowjust pointing out this example). High Headroom DSP - with 3.5 dB "Excess" Digital Headroom All of the digital processing in the DAC2 HGC is designed to handle signals as high as +3.5 dBFS. Most digital systems clip signals that exceed 0 dBFS. The 0 dBFS limitation seems reasonable, as 0 dBFS is the highest sinusoidal signal level that can be represented in a digital system. However, a detailed investigation of the mathematics of PCM digital systems will reveal that inter-sample peaks may reach levels slightly higher than +3 dBFS while individual samples never exceed 0 dBFS. These inter-sample overs are common in commercial releases, and are of no consequence in a PCM system until they reach an interpolation process. But, for a variety of reasons, virtually all audio D/A converters use an interpolation process. The interpolation process is absolutely necessary to achieve 24-bit state-of-the art conversion performance. Unfortunately, inter-sample overs cause clipping in most interpolators. This clipping produces distortion products that are non-harmonic and non-musical . We believe these broadband distortion products often add a harshness or false high-frequency sparkle to digital reproduction. The DAC2 HGC avoids these problems by maintaining at least 3.5 dB of headroom in the entire conversion system. We believe this added headroom is a groundbreaking improvement. *Home:* VortexBox 4TB (2.3) > LMS 7.8 > Transporter, Touch, Boom, Radio (all ethernet) *Cottage:* VBA 3TB (2.3) > LMS 7.8 > Touch > Benchmark DAC I, Boom, Radio w/Battery (all ethernet except Radio) *Office:* Win8(64) > LMS 7.9 > Squeezelite *Spares:* Touch(3), Radio(3), Boom, SB3, CONTROLLER *Controllers:* iPhone6 & iPadAir2 (iPeng8 & Squeezepad), CONTROLLER, or SqueezePlay 7.8 on Win7(64) laptop *Files:* ripping: dbpoweramp > FLAC; post-rip: mp3tag, PerfectTunes; Streaming: Spotify garym's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=17325 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=103842 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Is anybody sick of the recent spate of threads?
Julf wrote: > So you suspect your DAC hasn't been designed with enough headroom? Do you remeber our tread about "intersample overs" not many DAC especially older ones shave not acounted for this effect , which in turn is an artefact of modern record producing . DAC mfg is often hunting specs so even if some filters alows for gain adjustments in theri parameters you get better snr if you don't :) so they just assume perfect recordings Main hifi: Touch + CIA PS +MeridianG68J MeridianHD621 MeridianG98DH 2 x MeridianDSP5200 MeridianDSP5200HC 2 xMeridianDSP3100 +Rel Stadium 3 sub. Bedroom/Office: Boom Kitchen: Touch + powered Fostex PM0.4 Misc use: Radio (with battery) iPad1 with iPengHD & SqueezePad (spares Touch, SB3, reciever ,controller ) server HP proliant micro server N36L with ClearOS Linux http://people.xiph.org/~xiphmont/demo/neil-young.html Mnyb's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=4143 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=103842 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Is anybody sick of the recent spate of threads?
darrenyeats wrote: > BTW I'd avoid above 90 in any event to give my DAC DSP headroom for > upsampling/ASRC. So you suspect your DAC hasn't been designed with enough headroom? "To try to judge the real from the false will always be hard. In this fast-growing art of 'high fidelity' the quackery will bear a solid gilt edge that will fool many people" - Paul W Klipsch, 1953 Julf's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=42050 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=103842 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Is anybody sick of the recent spate of threads?
Some recordings are very quiet others very loud. Sometimes I don't want to listen at a loud volume. I tend to use 30-65 most of the time but I occasionally need say 20-80. I don't want a physical preamp. Therefore I expect my digital volume to be blameless. 80-90 is not a realistic use case, far too narrow. (BTW I'd avoid above 90 in any event to give my DAC DSP headroom for upsampling/ASRC.) Obviously better than any attenuation is getting the gain structure right. I've done all I can on that front, that was step one. As we know, noise is far far more benign than distortion. I'd rather dither everything than have bit perfection but only for 16 bit and only certain volume levels. The volume control should be dithered! You can argue all you like about audibility but technically you know dithered would be better. Check it, add to it! http://www.dr.loudness-war.info/ SB Touch darrenyeats's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=10799 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=103842 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Is anybody sick of the recent spate of threads?
Mnyb wrote: > A guess 80-90 volume is ok for the best recordings ever made? Pretty much, yes. So far I haven't come across a single recording going beyond 90 dB or so. "To try to judge the real from the false will always be hard. In this fast-growing art of 'high fidelity' the quackery will bear a solid gilt edge that will fool many people" - Paul W Klipsch, 1953 Julf's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=42050 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=103842 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Is anybody sick of the recent spate of threads?
darrenyeats wrote: > Thanks Clive. > > To summarise what members utgg has clarified for us, a Touch volume > setting of 40 (~-30db) or higher will be bit perfect with 16 bit source. > So in this respect at least, similar to earlier Squeezeboxes according > to your link. > > That just leaves us (well, me anyway) the worry of volume 39 or lower > with 16 bit source or volume below 100 with 24 bit source. Good morning .. ( of to work in a minute ) With 24 bit sources you have a kind of wiggle room anyway so not quite 100 ( I'm again not going to figure the exact math, cue utgg ... ) We have discussed that no practical DAC's are really 24 bit ( more like 19-21 bit on a good day ). That also goes for ADC and other recording equipment assume that the best modern recordings ever made can reach the same level say 19-20 bits ,and that's a wide margin they are probably not that good . Typical recordings don't even challenge the cd system ( most of the recorded history including audiophile favourites like dstm ) , but this is the audiophile forum so assume your best records on your best system :) A guess 80-90 volume is ok for the best recordings ever made ? I have casually assumed that I have a practical 20 bit system at home ( best case quiet day ) and the recordings are at best 16 bit even if branded as 24 bit ( 8 bit of random noise is not going to make it better, even if you bougth them from HD tracks ) . So what gives ? I think I can use some of the Touch volume 70-90 and all of my meridian volume ( properly dithered ) without even theoretically limit my sq . I again I think the gain of the system is of more importance sending a quit signal to the DAC means it closer to its noise floor but preamp or power amp gain if of concern . And I use bits and dB as the same thing ? You can assume that with properly dithered modern equipment . Main hifi: Touch + CIA PS +MeridianG68J MeridianHD621 MeridianG98DH 2 x MeridianDSP5200 MeridianDSP5200HC 2 xMeridianDSP3100 +Rel Stadium 3 sub. Bedroom/Office: Boom Kitchen: Touch + powered Fostex PM0.4 Misc use: Radio (with battery) iPad1 with iPengHD & SqueezePad (spares Touch, SB3, reciever ,controller ) server HP proliant micro server N36L with ClearOS Linux http://people.xiph.org/~xiphmont/demo/neil-young.html Mnyb's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=4143 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=103842 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Is anybody sick of the recent spate of threads?
Thanks Clive. To summarise what member utgg has clarified for us, a Touch volume setting of 40 (~-30db) or higher will be bit perfect with 16 bit source. That just leaves us the problem of below Touch volume 39 or less. Check it, add to it! http://www.dr.loudness-war.info/ SB Touch darrenyeats's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=10799 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=103842 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Is anybody sick of the recent spate of threads?
darrenyeats wrote: > Can you remember where you read that? Sorry, this goes back to 2005 or 2006. I have tried searching the forums to find the threads that discussed the firmware updates in detail, but without success. But I do distinctly remember seeing discussions about how the volume adjustment had been modified to avoid the need to use the 25th bit for all but extreme attenuation settings. The one place where this is mentioned in passing is in an exchange between myself and Patrick Dixon (posts #11 to #16) in this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?28133-Transporter-Confused-about-volume-control/page2 darrenyeats wrote: > According to my tests on the TOUCH, vol approx 30-100 seems to obey > approx 0.5dB per step (which would make vol 40 approx -30db) but below > 30 the drop off in dB is more rapid. I can't say anything about the Touch. The firmware change I remember was for the old players (SB2/3, TP), from way before the Duet or Touch were introduced. Transporter -> ATC SCM100A cliveb's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=348 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=103842 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Is anybody sick of the recent spate of threads?
utgg wrote: > The table gain values of 2048 and greater are all multiples of 256. That > means if you multiply 16-bit data by the table values, the least > significant 8 bits of the 32-bit result will be all zeros - so there is > no truncation when the most significant 24 bits are fed to a 24-bit DAC. > The 2048 gain value corresponds to -30.1dB. With lower gain values than > that there is truncation. Great missed that :) cool that it can be without truncation and still fairly logaritmic Main hifi: Touch + CIA PS +MeridianG68J MeridianHD621 MeridianG98DH 2 x MeridianDSP5200 MeridianDSP5200HC 2 xMeridianDSP3100 +Rel Stadium 3 sub. Bedroom/Office: Boom Kitchen: Touch + powered Fostex PM0.4 Misc use: Radio (with battery) iPad1 with iPengHD & SqueezePad (spares Touch, SB3, reciever ,controller ) server HP proliant micro server N36L with ClearOS Linux http://people.xiph.org/~xiphmont/demo/neil-young.html Mnyb's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=4143 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=103842 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Is anybody sick of the recent spate of threads?
darrenyeats wrote: > utgg, do you know where and how could one invoke this function? > > Code: > > > --provide hook for applets to modify the gain curve > function overrideDefaultVolumeToGain(self, value) > _defaultVolumeToGain = value > end > > > > As it clearly is a stub function, I assume it gets invoked automatically, but can be overridden (or modified) to accomplish the desired mapping. "To try to judge the real from the false will always be hard. In this fast-growing art of 'high fidelity' the quackery will bear a solid gilt edge that will fool many people" - Paul W Klipsch, 1953 Julf's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=42050 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=103842 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Is anybody sick of the recent spate of threads?
utgg wrote: > The table gain values of 2048 and greater are all multiples of 256. I missed that. Probably because 256, 512 etc are missing below 2048! Why on earth try to follow some notional curve when SOME of these were for the taking?! We could have had some volume settings with non-truncation down to -48db! utgg wrote: > The 2048 gain value corresponds to -30.1dB. Yep. BTW, where and how could one invoke this function? Code: --provide hook for applets to modify the gain curve function overrideDefaultVolumeToGain(self, value) _defaultVolumeToGain = value end Thanks, Darren Check it, add to it! http://www.dr.loudness-war.info/ SB Touch darrenyeats's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=10799 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=103842 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Is anybody sick of the recent spate of threads?
darrenyeats wrote: > Thanks Mynb, > If the aim is not to truncate, the first numbers I expect to pop out are > binary roots of 65536 (i.e. powers of 2) e.g. 256, 512, ..., 16384, > 32768. Their absence indicates that avoiding truncation was not a goal > at all. > The table gain values of 2048 and greater are all multiples of 256. That means if you multiply 16-bit data by the table values, the least significant 8 bits of the 32-bit result will be all zeros - so there is no truncation when the most significant 24 bits are fed to a 24-bit DAC. The 2048 gain value corresponds to -30.1dB. With lower gain values than that there is truncation. utgg's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=40900 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=103842 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Is anybody sick of the recent spate of threads?
darrenyeats wrote: > Thanks Mynb, > I didn't realise that Touch used Squeezeplay! That was an important bit > of knowledge. Wondered where the Touch firmware was on github! > > If the aim is not to truncate, the first numbers I expect to pop out are > binary roots of 65536 (i.e. powers of 2) e.g. 256, 512, ..., 16384, > 32768. Their absence indicates that avoiding truncation was not a goal > at all. > > Possibly but it goes to some other code crossfade is done somewhere and the audiocodecs come in somehow then the OS ( squeezeos ) and its alsa process and then the hardware chips . So I would not know honestly . There is propably something akin to a "driver" for the audio hardware somewhere to ? But Playback lua looks like some control program but it does not actually do the playback or the volume control . The logaritmic volume curve expressed in 16 bit integers . How is that curve used later in the process ? I dont know that either ? Main hifi: Touch + CIA PS +MeridianG68J MeridianHD621 MeridianG98DH 2 x MeridianDSP5200 MeridianDSP5200HC 2 xMeridianDSP3100 +Rel Stadium 3 sub. Bedroom/Office: Boom Kitchen: Touch + powered Fostex PM0.4 Misc use: Radio (with battery) iPad1 with iPengHD & SqueezePad (spares Touch, SB3, reciever ,controller ) server HP proliant micro server N36L with ClearOS Linux http://people.xiph.org/~xiphmont/demo/neil-young.html Mnyb's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=4143 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=103842 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Is anybody sick of the recent spate of threads?
Mnyb wrote: > You can get the source code on github for squeezeplay > (controller,Touch,radio) . > > There is a file Playback.lua . > > There is 2 volume mappings in here . I dont read LUA so I cant really > figure which one is actually used but there are hundred discrete values > in "16 bit format" full volume is 65536 . > Thanks Mynb, I didn't realise that Touch used Squeezeplay! That was an important bit of knowledge. Wondered where the Touch firmware was on github! If the aim is not to truncate, the first thing I expect to pop on the list are binary roots of 65536 e.g. 32768, 16384. The fact they're absent indicates that avoiding truncation was not a goal at all. This part is interesting: Code: --provide hook for applets to modify the gain curve function overrideDefaultVolumeToGain(self, value) _defaultVolumeToGain = value end Check it, add to it! http://www.dr.loudness-war.info/ SB Touch darrenyeats's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=10799 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=103842 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Is anybody sick of the recent spate of threads?
You can get the source code on github for squeezeplay (controller,Touch,radio) . There is a file Playback.lua . There is 2 volume mappings in here . I dont read LUA so I cant really figure which one is actually used but there are hundred discrete values in "16 bit format" full volume is 65536 . These trace nice logaritmic curves :) very close to each other ( I did plot them in graph just to see ) . How these map onto 24bit it cant say . It must be done somewhere else in the code Just get the complete file from github if you are familiar with the programming language . I assume you need more than that to get the full picture audio decoding is spread amongst a several files and binaries Code: -- volumeMap has the correct gain settings for volume settings 1-100. Based on Boom volume curve --todo when this becomes SP device specific move to service method and make it per-device local _defaultVolumeToGain = { 16, 18, 22, 26, 31, 36, 43, 51, 61, 72, 85, 101, 120, 142, 168, 200, 237, 281, 333, 395, 468, 555, 658, 781, 926, 980, 1037, 1098, 1162, 1230, 1302, 1378, 1458, 1543, 1634, 1729, 1830, 1937, 2050, 2048, 2304, 2304, 2560, 2816, 2816, 3072, 3328, 3328, 3584, 3840, 4096, 4352, 4608, 4864, 5120, 5376, 5632, 6144, 6400, 6656, 7168, 7680, 7936, 8448, 8960, 9472, 9984, 10752, 11264, 12032, 12544, 13312, 14080, 14848, 15872, 16640, 17664, 18688, 19968, 20992, 22272, 23552, 24832, 26368, 27904, 29696, 31232, 33024, 35072, 37120, 39424, 41728, 44032, 46592, 49408, 52224, 55296, 58624, 61952, 65536, } local _serverVolumeToGain = _defaultVolumeToGain -- same since Squeezeplay.pm uses Boom curve --sb2 curve --local _serverVolumeToGain = { --232, 246, 260, 276, 292, 309, 327, 346, 366, 388, 411, 435, 460, 487, 516, 546, 578, 612, 648, 686, 726, 769, 814, 862, 912, 966, 1022, 1082, 1146, 1213, 1284, 1359, 1439, 1523, 1613, 1707, 1807, 1913, 2026, 2048, 2304, 2304, 2560, 2816, 2816, 3072, 3072, 3328, 3584, 3840, 4096, 4352, 4608, 4864, 5120, 5376, 5632, 5888, 6400, 6656, 7168, 7424, 7936, 8448, 8960, 9472, 9984, 10496, 11264, 11776, 12544, 13312, 14080, 14848, 15872, 16640, 17664, 18688, 19712, 20992, 22272, 23552, 24832, 26368, 27904, 29440, 31232, 33024, 35072, 37120, 39168, 41472, 44032, 46592, 49408, 52224, 55296, 58368, 61952, 65536, --} --provide hook for applets to modify the gain curve function overrideDefaultVolumeToGain(self, value) _defaultVolumeToGain = value end Why would i even have this info ? Our member Peter W ? I think figured how to fix the volume of the Touch ,before we got a server setting for it . In the old source i have its around line 819 decode:audioGain(data.gainL, data.gainR) Replace it with . decode:audioGain(65536, 65536) This of-course makes it possible to put in any other number , But it would be nice to know how the gain is implemented further down the code/hardware to be able to use numbers hat dont truncate . Main hifi: Touch + CIA PS +MeridianG68J MeridianHD621 MeridianG98DH 2 x MeridianDSP5200 MeridianDSP5200HC 2 xMeridianDSP3100 +Rel Stadium 3 sub. Bedroom/Office: Boom Kitchen: Touch + powered Fostex PM0.4 Misc use: Radio (with battery) iPad1 with iPengHD & SqueezePad (spares Touch, SB3, reciever ,controller ) server HP proliant micro server N36L with ClearOS Linux http://people.xiph.org/~xiphmont/demo/neil-young.html Mnyb's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=4143 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=103842 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Is anybody sick of the recent spate of threads?
cliveb wrote: > What are your sources? If they are native 24 bit, then fair enough. > However, if they are mainly 16 bit from CD rips, then you really don't > need to worry about dither. Many years ago the SB and TP firmwares were > updated so that all digital attentuation steps down to about -40dB or so > were arranged such that there was never any fixed point rounding or > truncation of the 16th bit (ie. not until you get down to the point > where the 16th bit becomes the 24th bit). Can you remember where you read that? According to my tests on the TOUCH, vol approx 30-100 seems to obey approx 0.5dB per step (which would make vol 40 approx -30db) but below 30 the drop off in dB is more rapid. 0.5dB per step is what I've seen quoted for SB/Transporter. I calculate for 16 bit source this would be possible only down to 30db assuming 12 volume steps = 1 bit. (Some intermediate volume steps between 40, 28, 16, 4, 0 would require truncation, there just aren't enough bits to preserve fractional bjt shifts down there.) But all this assumes that the Touch is similar, and it appears that's not a given! Does anyone have info on the Touch specifically? Check it, add to it! http://www.dr.loudness-war.info/ SB Touch darrenyeats's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=10799 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=103842 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Is anybody sick of the recent spate of threads?
cliveb wrote: > What are your sources? If they are native 24 bit, then fair enough. > However, if they are mainly 16 bit from CD rips, then you really don't > need to worry about dither. Many years ago the SB and TP firmwares were > updated so that all digital attentuation steps down to about -40dB or so > were arranged such that there was never any fixed point rounding or > truncation of the 16th bit (ie. not until you get down to the point > where the 16th bit becomes the 24th bit). Thanks for that info , then the noise floor on the rest of your hifi is the deciding factor of where you are to apply the volume or combinations thereof . For example with the proper attenuation or gain driving a power amp directly will be trouble free. That may also explain my results as my system is a bit different with another digital volume applied in the speakers given 16 bit sources . Unless I use to much attenuation in the Touch it will be all the same for me I just use less digital attenuation in my speakers I even get the same noise floor , it simply becomes a scaling ( the processor works in floating point anyway then output 24 bit to the speakers . Given that in practice no DAC performs better than ~20-21 bit I will not loose sleep . Btw I tried the practical resolution of my system . -112 dB signals is audible with the ear against a speaker driver and full volume . Much less sitting in the listening position with ambient noise etc can not remember the exact number still at full volume. If don't want to blow of your ears and play extremely loud I'm quite sure not even 16 bit is archived in practice in a home setting unless you have an anechoic chamber test chamber . Doing this test with your typical listening volume will usually result that you can't hear signals -70-80dB down . That is a test signal in isolation not masked by any music it gets totally quiet ! That get us around to the original subject of the tread , how are we supposed to hear all the wonderful improvements below say -130 dB :) they must be there as they are " unmeasurable " according to the cult practitioners as all objectivist fails to find them . Main hifi: Touch + CIA PS +MeridianG68J MeridianHD621 MeridianG98DH 2 x MeridianDSP5200 MeridianDSP5200HC 2 xMeridianDSP3100 +Rel Stadium 3 sub. Bedroom/Office: Boom Kitchen: Touch + powered Fostex PM0.4 Misc use: Radio (with battery) iPad1 with iPengHD & SqueezePad (spares Touch, SB3, reciever ,controller ) server HP proliant micro server N36L with ClearOS Linux http://people.xiph.org/~xiphmont/demo/neil-young.html Mnyb's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=4143 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=103842 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Is anybody sick of the recent spate of threads?
darrenyeats wrote: > Thanks Mynb. I'm aware the 24th bit is a long way down but then with > 30dB of digital attenuation it's 18th bit in practice. I'd like to > dither it, just to do it right. Audio nervosa perhaps but let's see if I > can rig up a variable way of doing this ... For me the point (as for so > many tweaks) is that it's technically better. What are your sources? If they are native 24 bit, then fair enough. However, if they are mainly 16 bit from CD rips, then you really don't need to worry about dither. Many years ago the SB and TP firmwares were updated so that all digital attentuation steps down to about -40dB or so were arranged such that there was never any fixed point rounding or truncation of the 16th bit (ie. not until you get down to the point where the 16th bit becomes the 24th bit). Transporter -> ATC SCM100A cliveb's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=348 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=103842 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Is anybody sick of the recent spate of threads?
Thanks Mynb. I'm aware the 24th bit is a long way down but then with 30dB of digital attenuation it's nearer 18th bit in practice. I'd like to either it, just to do it right. Audio nervosa perhaps but let's see if I can rig up a variable way of doing this ... For me the point (as for so many tweaks) is that it's technically better. I leave audibility aside when I have technical reasons. I have to check whether the [flac] part is really necessary, I added it in whilst struggling, once I fixed the sox part I didn't try taking out the flac again! I'll report back if no-one else does. Check it, add to it! http://www.dr.loudness-war.info/ SB Touch darrenyeats's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=10799 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=103842 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Is anybody sick of the recent spate of threads?
Mnyb wrote: > Ok but why ? Was it you that always had a constant upsamling going on or > was it some other member . Or is t to defeat potential intersample overs > ? I have for the last months tried to find out if I can produce any > awerse of positive effect by not running the volume on the Touch at 100% > when using its digital out to my Meridian system , just for these > intersample overs . My processor is designed in 2004 so circuits for > upsample may not be the most modern ( it samples everything to 24/96 > before applying volume and DRC , dithered volume ;) ). > > But it I have not done the most rigorous testing so it's still a null > result I'm yet to hear any difference on any recording . > Nb this will only manifest if a recording is such that it would provoke > this issue in the filter and if my over sample filter is sensitive to > this . > > Another effect , I'm now also personally convinced that the squeezeboxes > volume control is transparent for human listeners at least at the higher > volume settings regardless of how it's actually done in the software :) > depending on total system gain it's probably fine all the way down ! on > CD material the "problem" of no dither will probably only manifest when > reaching bit 16 of 24 that's probably at a fairly low volume . ( cd > stuff is padded with 8 zero bits by The player to make it 24 bit ). > > I'm ofcourse open to be totally wrong , that would not be the first time > ! Anyone with more insight on the squeezeboxes volume control . An instance of being totally wrong , when I was afflicted with the audiophile bug I was convinced that 100% volume was the only way and bit perfect was paramount to perfect sound. Well in some settings with many DAC it can still be the best practice to run the system bitperfect at 100% volume no doubt about that . But a slip on the volume control from 100% to 99% would not have a catastrophic effect on sq ;) in fact if you compensate the volume reduction elsewhere you can't even hear the difference. This way of thinking can arise from when you used a computer as a source then bitperfect output was also achieved when you managed to bypass Windows kmixer and other horrible stuff on your OS . So bitperfect out was achieved at the same time as defeating badly implemented resampling etc . Otherwise a good 24 bit volume control with dither should in every way be superior to an analog one , as it behaves as an ideal analog control for a fraction of the price . Besides try to keep channel balance in a 5.1 or 7.1 system in any other way Main hifi: Touch + CIA PS +MeridianG68J MeridianHD621 MeridianG98DH 2 x MeridianDSP5200 MeridianDSP5200HC 2 xMeridianDSP3100 +Rel Stadium 3 sub. Bedroom/Office: Boom Kitchen: Touch + powered Fostex PM0.4 Misc use: Radio (with battery) iPad1 with iPengHD & SqueezePad (spares Touch, SB3, reciever ,controller ) server HP proliant micro server N36L with ClearOS Linux http://people.xiph.org/~xiphmont/demo/neil-young.html Mnyb's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=4143 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=103842 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Is anybody sick of the recent spate of threads?
darrenyeats wrote: > Mynb, > Your comment stung me, I really thought otherwise and it's bothered me > since. > > I think* I've managed to attenuate with dither, albeit in a fixed > fashion, by doing this in convert.conf and setting the regular volume to > 100. > > In convert.conf, set the "flc flc" line as follows: > > flc flc * * > [flac] -dcs $START$ $END$ -- $FILE$ | [sox] -q -t wav - -t flac > -C 0 $RESAMPLE$ - gain -30 dither > > Replace -30 with whatever dB of attenuation you want. Beware since > non-FLAC files will still play at full volume! > Darren > > PS: *If anyone can confirm this is doing dither as it should, I'd > appreciate it. Ok but why ? Was it you that always had a constant upsamling going on or was it some other member . Or is t to defeat potential intersample overs ? I have for the last months tried to find out if I can produce any awerse of positive effect by not running the volume on the Touch at 100% when using its digital out to my Meridian system , just for these intersample overs . My processor is designed in 2004 so circuits for upsample may not be the most modern ( it samples everything to 24/96 before applying volume and DRC , dithered volume ;) ). But it I have not done the most rigorous testing so it's still a null result I'm yet to hear any difference on any recording . Nb this will only manifest if a recording is such that it would provoke this issue in the filter and if my over sample filter is sensitive to this . Another effect , I'm now also personally convinced that the squeezeboxes volume control is transparent for human listeners at least at the higher volume settings regardless of how it's actually done in the software :) depending on total system gain it's probably fine all the way down ! on CD material the "problem" of no dither will probably only manifest when reaching bit 16 of 24 that's probably at a fairly low volume . ( cd stuff is padded with 8 zero bits by The player to make it 24 bit ). I'm ofcourse open to be totally wrong , that would not be the first time ! Anyone with more insight on the squeezeboxes volume control . Main hifi: Touch + CIA PS +MeridianG68J MeridianHD621 MeridianG98DH 2 x MeridianDSP5200 MeridianDSP5200HC 2 xMeridianDSP3100 +Rel Stadium 3 sub. Bedroom/Office: Boom Kitchen: Touch + powered Fostex PM0.4 Misc use: Radio (with battery) iPad1 with iPengHD & SqueezePad (spares Touch, SB3, reciever ,controller ) server HP proliant micro server N36L with ClearOS Linux http://people.xiph.org/~xiphmont/demo/neil-young.html Mnyb's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=4143 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=103842 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Is anybody sick of the recent spate of threads?
Mnyb wrote: > It's a 24 bit volume control dithering may be academic in those cases > may actually not be needed in practice . > I don't think for example a SB3 or transporter has the horsepower to run > a dither algorithm ,so yes I think I actually read years ago that it is > undithered . > > But for example the practical noise level in the analog out of Touch > makes it a practical 17-18 bit device or what was it ? Mynb, Your comment stung me, I really thought otherwise and it's bothered me since. I think* I've managed to attenuate with dither, albeit in a fixed fashion, by doing this in convert.conf and setting the regular volume to 100. In convert.conf, set the "flc flc" line as follows: flc flc * * [flac] -dcs $START$ $END$ -- $FILE$ | [sox] -q -t wav - -t flac -C 0 $RESAMPLE$ - gain -30 dither Replace -30 with whatever dB of attenuation you want. Darren PS: *If anyone can confirm this, I'd appreciate it. Check it, add to it! http://www.dr.loudness-war.info/ SB Touch darrenyeats's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=10799 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=103842 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Is anybody sick of the recent spate of threads?
jkeny wrote: > Oh, the fact that the Regen has been reported to improve every digital > audio device it was used with, escaped you? If it improves these devices > they must therefore not be transparent & therefore "broken" according to > your statement. The obvious conclusion, based on your logic, is that all > these devices couldn't be broken - hence the Regen is snakeoil > > The fact that the Regen is $199 delivered also escaped your notice & > again that it "[COLOR=#33]magically solves all imaginable problems" > as has been cynically stated on this forum before? > > Interesting information about the economics of marketing small electronics on the web: http://www.eetimes.com/author.asp?section_id=36&doc_id=1327192&; Key comment: "In September 2012, motivated by some of these success stories we decided to launch a new single board computer project called Parallella on Kickstarter. The campaign ended up raising $898,921 from 4,965 backers in less than a month. On the surface this looked like a huge success, but over the next two years we ended up spending more than $1.5 million to deliver on all of our Kickstarter commitments." 18441 The Regen appears to fit most closely with the middle column of numbers. Note the "Minimum units for break even", which appears to be well in excess of anything reported publicly for the Regen. Simple logic suggests that if it is profitable, it is because it development costs are far less or its profit per unit is far more. +---+ |Filename: Andreas-1-Labor-costs.jpg| |Download: http://forums.slimdevices.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=18441| +---+ arnyk's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=64365 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=103842 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Is anybody sick of the recent spate of threads?
jh901 wrote: > I > > If seeing the forest for the trees by your account necessitates adhering > to Hydrogen Audio dogma, then I'll stick with the, er, sticks. > There is no such unique thing as "Hydrogen Audio Dogma". By claiming otherwise, you show your ignorance of the issue or at least willingness to reduce the matter to dogmatic posturing. There is however the small matter of science, for which you appear to have very limited knowlege of or respect for. arnyk's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=64365 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=103842 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Is anybody sick of the recent spate of threads?
jh901 wrote: > I blame my parents. > > If seeing the forest for the trees by your account necessitates adhering > to Hydrogen Audio dogma, then I'll stick with the, er, sticks. > > As far as I know Jason's career writing about music has turned out ok. > Presumably, he's very happy. Not to knock Jason but anyone writing for any print periodical publication in 2015 does not have much in the way of a career. The internet has pretty much put all print periodical publications on life support and as yet no one has figured out how to generate real income with an online publication since most people feel that anything and everything on the internet is free or else can be found for "free". Living Rm: Transporter-SimAudio pre/power amps-Vandersteen 3A Sign. & sub Home Theater: Touch-Marantz HTR-Energy Veritas 2.1 & Linn sub Computer Rm: Touch-Headroom Desktop w/DAC-Aragon amp-Energy Veritas 2.1 & Energy sub Bedroom: Touch-HR Desktop w/DAC-Audio Refinement amp-Energy Veritas 2.0 Guest Rm: Duet-Sony soundbar Garage: SB3-JVC compact system Controls: iPeng; SB Controller; Moose & Muso Server: SBS on dedicated windows 7 computer w/2 Drobos 'Last.fm' (http://www.last.fm/user/jazzfann/) ralphpnj's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=10827 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=103842 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Is anybody sick of the recent spate of threads?
arnyk wrote: > The poor guy grew up (if you can call it that) an irrational > subjectivist who lives in a multidimensional logic-tight box, what can I > say? > > I'll bet money JH you can't possibly see that, something about seeing > the forest for the trees... I blame my parents. If seeing the forest for the trees by your account necessitates adhering to Hydrogen Audio dogma, then I'll stick with the, er, sticks. As far as I know Jason's career writing about music has turned out ok. Presumably, he's very happy. Cary Audio 306 SACD Pro | Cary Audio SLP-05 | Cary Audio SA-200.2 | Focal Diablo Utopia III __Acoustic treatment: DIY Cylinder Bass traps | "Rule of Thirds" for speaker & sweet spot position __Speaker Cables: Analysis Plus Big Silver Oval | Shunyata Venom series power cords and power conditioning jh901's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=18175 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=103842 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Is anybody sick of the recent spate of threads?
jh901 wrote: > I'm sure Jason's parents are pleased that you feel so strongly that your > adult children turned out to be "better men than he". Perhaps you could > find out where they went wrong and then let us know. The poor guy grew up (if you can call it that) an irrational subjectivist who lives in a multidimensional logic-tight box, what can I say? I'll bet money JH you can't possibly see that, something about seeing the forest for the trees... arnyk's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=64365 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=103842 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Is anybody sick of the recent spate of threads?
arnyk wrote: > I've obviously, shall we say gently applied corporal punishment to > better men than he and that ain't just whistling Dixie! I'm sure Jason's parents are pleased that you feel so strongly that your adult children turned out to be "better men than he". Perhaps you could find out where they went wrong and then let us know. Cary Audio 306 SACD Pro | Cary Audio SLP-05 | Cary Audio SA-200.2 | Focal Diablo Utopia III __Acoustic treatment: DIY Cylinder Bass traps | "Rule of Thirds" for speaker & sweet spot position __Speaker Cables: Analysis Plus Big Silver Oval | Shunyata Venom series power cords and power conditioning jh901's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=18175 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=103842 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Is anybody sick of the recent spate of threads?
Archimago wrote: > Well Arny, > All I can say is, it looks like you dodged a bullet... Serinus didn't > call you a "pathetic girly man". :-) I have two sons that are probably about the same age as he, one with a PhD in Cancer Research, and the other with a MBA and dual BS in Environmental Engineering and Chemical Engineering. I've obviously, shall we say gently applied corporal punishment to better men than he and that ain't just whistling Dixie! If he doesn't give me respect I'll sick my daughter on him, who is a kickboxer with a PhD in Cancer research. ;-) arnyk's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=64365 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=103842 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Is anybody sick of the recent spate of threads?
Well Arny, All I can say is, it looks like you dodged a bullet... Serinus didn't call you a "pathetic girly man". :-) Archimago's Musings: (archimago.blogspot.com) A 'more objective' audiophile blog. Archimago's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=2207 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=103842 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Is anybody sick of the recent spate of threads?
ralphpnj wrote: > Remember what I wrote about how written history and the actual events > often have little in common? I would watch the video and then read > Stereophile's write up with a very, very big grain of salt. The audio recording is accurate. arnyk's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=64365 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=103842 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Is anybody sick of the recent spate of threads?
Archimago wrote: > Hey there Arny, oh yeah that Atkinson exchange from a decade back. I > remember reading the 'writeup in Stereophile' > (http://www.stereophile.com/news/050905debate/#l5EmtBLf2VFx0h18.97) > (Jason Victor Serinus, oi) and other audiophile places... I see it's on > YouTube. Will need to have a good listen tonight to really try to > understand how it went :-) Remember what I wrote about how written history and the actual events often have little in common? I would watch the video and then read Stereophile's write up with a very, very big grain of salt. Living Rm: Transporter-SimAudio pre/power amps-Vandersteen 3A Sign. & sub Home Theater: Touch-Marantz HTR-Energy Veritas 2.1 & Linn sub Computer Rm: Touch-Headroom Desktop w/DAC-Aragon amp-Energy Veritas 2.1 & Energy sub Bedroom: Touch-HR Desktop w/DAC-Audio Refinement amp-Energy Veritas 2.0 Guest Rm: Duet-Sony soundbar Garage: SB3-JVC compact system Controls: iPeng; SB Controller; Moose & Muso Server: SBS on dedicated windows 7 computer w/2 Drobos 'Last.fm' (http://www.last.fm/user/jazzfann/) ralphpnj's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=10827 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=103842 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Is anybody sick of the recent spate of threads?
arnyk wrote: > A criticism of the common audiophile definitions of objectivist and > subjectivist was the opening shot in my HE2005 debate with Atkinson. > > Hey, its only 10 years later and Atkinson's disciples are beginning to > understand my schtick! > > > > I remember its current proprietor when he was just another poster on the > Stereophile forum. I am unsure if he is rational enough to step in the > right direction and play his stereo at the same time. > > > > Of course. Subjectivists have to be in control or else some objectivist > weisenheimer will hand them their heads on a platter. > > > > That's a long way from a real-world psychoacoustically-based > understanding of the relationship of measurements and how the ear/brain > work. Hey there Arny, oh yeah that Atkinson exchange from a decade back. I remember reading the 'writeup in Stereophile' (http://www.stereophile.com/news/050905debate/#l5EmtBLf2VFx0h18.97) (Jason Victor Serinus, oi) and other audiophile places... I see it's on YouTube. Will need to have a good listen tonight to really try to understand how it went :-) https://youtu.be/oyaWMpnhusA Archimago's Musings: (archimago.blogspot.com) A 'more objective' audiophile blog. Archimago's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=2207 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=103842 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Is anybody sick of the recent spate of threads?
Archimago wrote: > > Notice the latest posting on AudioStream today? > A criticism of the common audiophile definitions of objectivist and subjectivist was the opening shot in my HE2005 debate with Atkinson. Hey, its only 10 years later and Atkinson's disciples are beginning to understand my schtick! > > Hmmm, a step in the right direction? > I remember its current proprietor when he was just another poster on the Stereophile forum. I am unsure if he is rational enough to step in the right direction and play his stereo at the same time. > > Of course, I've been banned from posting for some reason even though I > don't think I was rude or terribly argumentative! > Of course. Subjectivists have to be in control or else some objectivist weisenheimer will hand them their heads on a platter. > > "No one in their right mind dismisses the importance of objective > attributes when it comes to the design and manufacturer of audio > components. And no one in their right mind would dismiss the importance > of measurements after-the-fact in determining if a given component is > performing up to spec." > That's a long way from a real-world psychoacoustically-based understanding of the relationship of measurements and how the ear/brain work. arnyk's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=64365 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=103842 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Is anybody sick of the recent spate of threads?
Archimago wrote: > Well, when it comes to SBGK, I notice that he tends to disappear once > one confronts him with request for details on his testing method and > what he bases his conclusions on. > > As for CA. Such an unfortunate state of affairs. I think in its early > days many of the topics were useful and reality-based. There were some > excellent articles by folks like Mitchco looking at room treatments, > speaker digital XO's and such as examples of the value of some articles. > Seems like an excellent example of how trying to turn it into a > financial venture and the need to court advertisers and cater to the > 'needs' of certain manufacturers leads to acceptance and ultimately the > 'shilling' of questionable products. I guess when you go visit the > manufacturers in S. Korea, France, etc. this kind of thing happens??? > > On another note... Notice the latest posting on AudioStream today? Hmmm, > a step in the right direction? Of course, I've been banned from posting > for some reason even though I don't think I was rude or terribly > argumentative! > > "No one in their right mind dismisses the importance of objective > attributes when it comes to the design and manufacturer of audio > components. And no one in their right mind would dismiss the importance > of measurements after-the-fact in determining if a given component is > performing up to spec." > > I certainly would have thanked him for starting to take a more balanced > view... Archimago I believe that the developments at AudioStream kind of mirrored what happen over at Computer Audiophile in that AudioStream started off somewhat reality based but soon (a much faster turn around than CA) began to wave that audiophile flag loudly and proudly. But I can understand why both CA and AudioStream when down the audiophile rabbit hole - MONEY On a related note, why is that the vast majority of subjectivists only seem to respect subjective and sighted listening tests that yield those infamous "night and day" improvements/differences/what-have-yous and not the subjective and sighted listening tests that reach the conclusions that there is no difference? For example on this little forum that are many of us who hear absolutely no difference between well made and properly functioning USB cables, so why is that subjective observation dismissed but the ones that claim to hear a difference not only not dismissed but even revered. The main reason that I switched from the subjectivist camp over to the objectivist camp is that after awhile I could no longer hear any real or important difference between cables, speaker wires, power cords, electrical outlets, power conditions, etc. Sure I can hear differences between speakers and headphones but the difference between the sound of my Headroom amp with the standard DAC and power supply versus my Headroom amp with the upgraded power supply and DAC (yes I have two different Headroom DAC/amps) are not only NOT "night and day" but in fact may not just not be there at all. Now don't get me wrong in that the two amps could very well measure slightly different but those measurable differences just don't seem to translate into audible differences. Living Rm: Transporter-SimAudio pre/power amps-Vandersteen 3A Sign. & sub Home Theater: Touch-Marantz HTR-Energy Veritas 2.1 & Linn sub Computer Rm: Touch-Headroom Desktop w/DAC-Aragon amp-Energy Veritas 2.1 & Energy sub Bedroom: Touch-HR Desktop w/DAC-Audio Refinement amp-Energy Veritas 2.0 Guest Rm: Duet-Sony soundbar Garage: SB3-JVC compact system Controls: iPeng; SB Controller; Moose & Muso Server: SBS on dedicated windows 7 computer w/2 Drobos 'Last.fm' (http://www.last.fm/user/jazzfann/) ralphpnj's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=10827 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=103842 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Is anybody sick of the recent spate of threads?
Mnyb wrote: > Just saying that his most silly stuff is couple of years back nothing > else, take my word for it it would be utter waste of anyone’s time > to go back and read that . Agree about the rest . > > Computer Audiophile is even worse than delusional I've seen some article > shilling a certain cable brand ( I cant find it anymoore maybe they > stopped paying so it's down ) Well, when it comes to SBGK, I notice that he tends to disappear once one confronts him with request for details on his testing method and what he bases his conclusions on. As for CA. Such an unfortunate state of affairs. I think in its early days many of the topics were useful and reality-based. There were some excellent articles by folks like Mitchco looking at room treatments, speaker digital XO's and such as examples of the value of some articles. Seems like an excellent example of how trying to turn it into a financial venture and the need to court advertisers and cater to the 'needs' of certain manufacturers leads to acceptance and ultimately the 'shilling' of questionable products. I guess when you go visit the manufacturers in S. Korea, France, etc. this kind of thing happens??? On another note... Notice the latest posting on AudioStream today? Hmmm, a step in the right direction? Of course, I've been banned from posting for some reason even though I don't think I was rude or terribly argumentative! "No one in their right mind dismisses the importance of objective attributes when it comes to the design and manufacturer of audio components. And no one in their right mind would dismiss the importance of measurements after-the-fact in determining if a given component is performing up to spec." I certainly would have thanked him for starting to take a more balanced view... Archimago's Musings: (archimago.blogspot.com) A 'more objective' audiophile blog. Archimago's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=2207 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=103842 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Is anybody sick of the recent spate of threads?
arnyk wrote: > My SB join date is public knowledge. > > I bet that you know that this guy's name is Legion. (Biblical reference > for the post modern crowd) > > You can just about rank audio forums by the percentage of people who are > as out-of-touch and anti-science as he appears to be with Computer > Audiophile being near the max, and Hydrogen Audio being near the > minimum. and AVS being some place in between. Just saying that his most silly stuff is couple of years back nothing else, take my word for it it would be utter waste of anyones time to go back and read that . Agree about the rest . Computer Audiophile is even worse than delusional I've seen some article shilling a certain cable brand ( I cant find it anymoore maybe they stopped paying so it's down ) Main hifi: Touch + CIA PS +MeridianG68J MeridianHD621 MeridianG98DH 2 x MeridianDSP5200 MeridianDSP5200HC 2 xMeridianDSP3100 +Rel Stadium 3 sub. Bedroom/Office: Boom Kitchen: Touch + powered Fostex PM0.4 Misc use: Radio (with battery) iPad1 with iPengHD & SqueezePad (spares Touch, SB3, reciever ,controller ) server HP proliant micro server N36L with ClearOS Linux http://people.xiph.org/~xiphmont/demo/neil-young.html Mnyb's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=4143 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=103842 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Is anybody sick of the recent spate of threads?
Mnyb wrote: > You have not been on this forum that long have you seen his older treads > ?. My SB join date is public knowledge. I bet that you know that this guy's name is Legion. (Biblical reference for the post modern crowd) You can just about rank audio forums by the percentage of people who are as out-of-touch and anti-science as he appears to be with Computer Audiophile being near the max, and Hydrogen Audio being near the minimum. and AVS being some place in between. arnyk's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=64365 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=103842 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Is anybody sick of the recent spate of threads?
arnyk wrote: > At this point I think his *-tells-* seem to have painted a fairly > detailed picture of who he is. > > He obviously knows very little about audio technology and is incapable > of forming and expressing lucid word pictures about it. > > He feels threatened by people who are more comfortable with audio > technology and those people make him fearful and angry. > > He does not reread his own posts and notice how much his posts paint a > picture of their author being exactly the person he describes in hateful > ways. You have not been on this forum that long have you seen his older treads ? where he for example claims audible differences between server OS when used as LMS server . He can not grasp the concept that a squeezebox is not a soundcard with a long cable and that its server agnostic and works in completely different manner . The LMS server in itself does not need to have any working audio at all . He latest questions is in line with this way of thinking the buffer dont store bass treble and musicality separately it's only data ffs :D an error here would be very unlikely to target treble soundstage or whatever . but rather give you dropouts glitches static etc .. So yes he should measure that himself and present how he did that . in line with extraordinary claims must have extraordinary evidence . Main hifi: Touch + CIA PS +MeridianG68J MeridianHD621 MeridianG98DH 2 x MeridianDSP5200 MeridianDSP5200HC 2 xMeridianDSP3100 +Rel Stadium 3 sub. Bedroom/Office: Boom Kitchen: Touch + powered Fostex PM0.4 Misc use: Radio (with battery) iPad1 with iPengHD & SqueezePad (spares Touch, SB3, reciever ,controller ) server HP proliant micro server N36L with ClearOS Linux http://people.xiph.org/~xiphmont/demo/neil-young.html Mnyb's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=4143 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=103842 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Is anybody sick of the recent spate of threads?
bonze wrote: > Oh dear, another that runs out of anything useful to say, so resorts to > personal insults. At this point I think his *-tells-* seem to have painted a fairly detailed picture of who he is. He obviously knows very little about audio technology and is incapable of forming and expressing lucid word pictures about it. He feels threatened by people who are more comfortable with audio technology and those people make him fearful and angry. He does not reread his own posts and notice how much his posts paint a picture of their author being exactly the person he describes in hateful ways. arnyk's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=64365 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=103842 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Is anybody sick of the recent spate of threads?
Archimago wrote: > Well, I'm no rabbi or priest, but I do think there is a place for -faith > in one's life-. And hopefully in doing so, a better society. > > However, we do have to know the limits of faith. I see faith as giving > us motivation, inspiration, drive, dreams, sense of morality and > ultimately purpose. But these are high level subjective concepts along > the lines of "what's your favourite musical genre?" or "what's your > favourite book?" or "describe the most joyful thing you have ever done" > or "who do you love most in this world?" Perhaps science can one day > elucidate the neural mechanisms for these concepts and ideas, but until > then, nothing wrong with maintaining the wonder and joy around these > subjective intangibles of what gives us our -personalities-. > > I think in a nutshell, this is Stephen Jay Gould's "NOMA" > (Non-Overlapping Magisteria) concept as he puts it in the book '\"Rocks > of Ages: Science and Religion in the Fullness of Life\"' > (http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/034545040X/ref=as_li_tl?ie=UTF8&camp=1789&creative=390957&creativeASIN=034545040X&linkCode=as2&tag=archsmusi-20&linkId=ZJ6SDFEMUJRKBRVC). > Give to God what is God's and Science what is Science's... (At least in > terms of framework for understanding and ways of knowing "truth".) > > And I think it's pretty fair to say that sound quality as rendered by > technological machines is well within the "magisterium" of Science. :-) Very well said!! Rg System information Main: Vortexbox/Squeezelite > USB> Benchmark DAC2 D > LFD LE IV Signature amp > Revel Performa F208 speakers. Home Theatre: Touch (Wired) > Pioneer VSX 919 > Energy Take 5 Classic 5.1, Touch FW 7.8.0-r16754. LMS 7.9.0 - 0.71.20150313git1426153261 on a 1TB Micro Vortexbox Appliance, V 2.3. rgro's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=34348 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=103842 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Is anybody sick of the recent spate of threads?
rgro wrote: > I'm mostly with you guys, but wouldn't it be interesting to have a > really well-educated audiophile priest or rabbi chime in here with some > balancing thoughts on the place of faith in human societies? It's not > all just one big high-functioning computer out thereor is it? Well, I'm no rabbi or priest, but I do think there is a place for -faith in one's life-. And hopefully in doing so, a better society. However, we do have to know the limits of faith. I see faith as giving us motivation, inspiration, drive, dreams, sense of morality and ultimately purpose. But these are high level subjective concepts along the lines of "what's your favourite musical genre?" or "what's your favourite book?" or "describe the most joyful think you have ever done" or "who do you love most in this world?" Perhaps science can one day elucidate the neural mechanisms for these concepts and ideas, but until then, nothing wrong with maintaining the wonder and joy around these subjective intangibles of what gives us our -personalities-. I think in a nutshell, this is Stephen Jay Gould's "NOMA" (Non-Overlapping Magisteria) concept as he puts it in the book '\"Rocks of Ages: Science and Religion in the Fullness of Life\"' (http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/034545040X/ref=as_li_tl?ie=UTF8&camp=1789&creative=390957&creativeASIN=034545040X&linkCode=as2&tag=archsmusi-20&linkId=ZJ6SDFEMUJRKBRVC). Give to God what is God's and Science what is Science's... (At least in terms of framework for understanding and ways of knowing "truth".) And I think it's pretty fair to say that sound quality as rendered by technological machines is well within the "magisterium" of Science. :-) Archimago's Musings: (archimago.blogspot.com) A 'more objective' audiophile blog. Archimago's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=2207 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=103842 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Is anybody sick of the recent spate of threads?
I'm mostly with you guys, but wouldn't it be interesting to have a really well-educated audiophile priest or rabbi chime in here with some balancing thoughts on the place of faith in human societies? It's not all just one big high-functioning computer out thereor is it? Rg System information Main: Vortexbox/Squeezelite > USB> Benchmark DAC2 D > LFD LE IV Signature amp > Revel Performa F208 speakers. Home Theatre: Touch (Wired) > Pioneer VSX 919 > Energy Take 5 Classic 5.1, Touch FW 7.8.0-r16754. LMS 7.9.0 - 0.71.20150313git1426153261 on a 1TB Micro Vortexbox Appliance, V 2.3. rgro's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=34348 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=103842 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Is anybody sick of the recent spate of threads?
Wombat wrote: > I am at my tablet with Firefox. Must be the "m." in the link, sorry. > http://youtube.com/#/watch?v=icmRCixQrx8 > http://youtube.com/#/watch?v=U8rhIZJAdd0 > Do these work? Skip the '#/' in both links. Best Regards, Gandhi not often enough well recorded and mastered cds *|* dbpoweramp with accuraterip *|* flac *|* fanless asrock z77e-itx intel i5-3570t *|* ubuntu 12.04.1 lts 32-bit *|* lms 7.8.0 *|* brutefirdrc 3.0 (rewv5) *|* transporter (balanced out) *|* thule ia252b *|* audio physic scorpio *|* no fancy cables. *+* also some booms. *+* harmony 525s for them all, including waking the server from s3. Gandhi's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=58909 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=103842 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Is anybody sick of the recent spate of threads?
ralphpnj wrote: > The link does not appear to work, at least not for me - Windows > 7/Firefox. Please check the link. Thanks! I don't quite follow. They both link to Batman v Superman: Dawn of Justice. Fits the bill. :-) Best Regards, Gandhi not often enough well recorded and mastered cds *|* dbpoweramp with accuraterip *|* flac *|* fanless asrock z77e-itx intel i5-3570t *|* ubuntu 12.04.1 lts 32-bit *|* lms 7.8.0 *|* brutefirdrc 3.0 (rewv5) *|* transporter (balanced out) *|* thule ia252b *|* audio physic scorpio *|* no fancy cables. *+* also some booms. *+* harmony 525s for them all, including waking the server from s3. Gandhi's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=58909 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=103842 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Is anybody sick of the recent spate of threads?
ralphpnj wrote: > The link does not appear to work, at least not for me - Windows > 7/Firefox. Please check the link. Thanks! I am at my tablet with Firefox. Must be the "m." in the link, sorry. http://youtube.com/#/watch?v=icmRCixQrx8 http://youtube.com/#/watch?v=U8rhIZJAdd0 Do these work? Transporter (modded) -> RG142 -> Avantgarde Acoustic based 500VA monoblocks -> Sommer SPK240 -> self-made speakers Wombat's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=4113 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=103842 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Is anybody sick of the recent spate of threads?
Julf wrote: > Actually it seems that that has been articulated, by Florence Ambrose, > as "Any technology, no matter how primitive, is magic to those who don't > understand it". > > There is also Grey's law - "Any sufficiently advanced incompetence is > indistinguishable from malice" and Morgan's Maxim "Any sufficiently > advanced troll is indistinguishable from a genuine kook." :-) - Never attribute to malice what can be explained by stupidity. Don't assign to stupidity what might be due to ignorance. And try not to assume your opponent is the ignorant one -- until you can show it isn't you.- - M. L. Plano Best Regards, Gandhi not often enough well recorded and mastered cds *|* dbpoweramp with accuraterip *|* flac *|* fanless asrock z77e-itx intel i5-3570t *|* ubuntu 12.04.1 lts 32-bit *|* lms 7.8.0 *|* brutefirdrc 3.0 (rewv5) *|* transporter (balanced out) *|* thule ia252b *|* audio physic scorpio *|* no fancy cables. *+* also some booms. *+* harmony 525s for them all, including waking the server from s3. Gandhi's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=58909 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=103842 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Is anybody sick of the recent spate of threads?
Wombat wrote: > The decline of IQ? I like this case study ;) > http://m.youtube.com/#/watch?v=icmRCixQrx8 > http://m.youtube.com/#/watch?v=U8rhIZJAdd0 The link does not appear to work, at least not for me - Windows 7/Firefox. Please check the link. Thanks! Living Rm: Transporter-SimAudio pre/power amps-Vandersteen 3A Sign. & sub Home Theater: Touch-Marantz HTR-Energy Veritas 2.1 & Linn sub Computer Rm: Touch-Headroom Desktop w/DAC-Aragon amp-Energy Veritas 2.1 & Energy sub Bedroom: Touch-HR Desktop w/DAC-Audio Refinement amp-Energy Veritas 2.0 Guest Rm: Duet-Sony soundbar Garage: SB3-JVC compact system Controls: iPeng; SB Controller; Moose & Muso Server: SBS on dedicated windows 7 computer w/2 Drobos 'Last.fm' (http://www.last.fm/user/jazzfann/) ralphpnj's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=10827 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=103842 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Is anybody sick of the recent spate of threads?
The decline of IQ? I like this case study ;) http://m.youtube.com/#/watch?v=icmRCixQrx8 Transporter (modded) -> RG142 -> Avantgarde Acoustic based 500VA monoblocks -> Sommer SPK240 -> self-made speakers Wombat's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=4113 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=103842 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Is anybody sick of the recent spate of threads?
Julf wrote: > The Flynn effect? Unfortunately it seems to have reversed in the 1980's, > and average IQ has actually gone down since. This could partially be > explained by the fact that natural selection isn't working any more (or > doesn't select for intelligence) in a society where we aren't constantly > fighting to survive (and every time I turn on the TV, I somehow think > there might be something to it). Great stuff guys! I really like the turnaround in discussion to the "big picture" of science, belief, theory of knowledge, and epistemics. Yeah, the Flynn Effect is interesting. I remember talking to the neuropsychologist about this a number of years ago and as a result have kept my eyes open on this topic over the years. My worry/concern is that this is unfortunately correlated with the educational system in developed countries. I'm shocked at the little amount of focus paid to math and science in the school curriculum these days... (I have kids in elementary school so seeing the public school expectations first hand.) Indeed, parts of the -developed -world has demonstrated reversal of the Flynn effect 'like Norway by the 2000's' (http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0160289604000522). But there does also appear to be evidence that the developing parts of the world has 'maintained the Flynn effect like China' (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3834612/) where economic reforms have obviously bought the country "on-line" in numerous ways from the 1980's to 2010's. That paper speaks about similar effects in other nations like S. Korea, Taiwan, S. African Indians... I suspect one would find similar gains in places like India. It's also interesting that this effect at least in China seems to be primarily gains in Performance IQ rather than Verbal subtests (of WISC). Certainly adds to the thoughts raised about improved higher intellectual cognitive functioning like prefrontal executive tasks, working memory, processing speed rather than just an improvement in language acquisition. Certainly something to think about from a societal perspective and especially childhood education and development of intellect. Archimago's Musings: (archimago.blogspot.com) A 'more objective' audiophile blog. Archimago's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=2207 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=103842 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Is anybody sick of the recent spate of threads?
SBGK wrote: > now now, play nicely. you don't want to be remembered as a bitter old > man. Oh dear, another that runs out of anything useful to say, so resorts to personal insults. LMS Version: 7.9 TranquilPC T2-WHS-A3 - WHS 2011 2x Touch, 3x SB3 bonze's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=6150 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=103842 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Is anybody sick of the recent spate of threads?
arnyk wrote: > It would appear that ridicule is all you've got. > > > > If you actually had something useful to say, you'd have said it by now. now now, play nicely. you don't want to be remembered as a bitter old man. Touch optimisations http://touchsgotrythm.blogspot.co.uk/ SBGK's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=52003 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=103842 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Is anybody sick of the recent spate of threads?
Gandhi wrote: > Ouch. I didn't even notice the climate myths. But in retrospect I > understand that I did just that, but on a subconscious level and would > actually have propagated that opinion, had anyone asked me today. My > mind was on audio, or at least I thought so. > > Obviously very dangerous not to be on one's toes every millisecond. > > Now, was that an act of subconscious mimicry? Or is it just that I can't > entertain two thoughts at once? While the big bad internet is filled with lots of mis/dis-information it also contains a wealth of very useful and otherwise hard to find real information. In that way modern technology does make it more difficult (though not impossible) to rewrite history. One small benefit of getting on in years is that one gets to witness first hand as history is rewritten to either distort, if not flat out eliminate, past events. Remember that in every war ever fought god was always on the side of the victor, at least until the next war. I think Dylan wrote a song about this :) Living Rm: Transporter-SimAudio pre/power amps-Vandersteen 3A Sign. & sub Home Theater: Touch-Marantz HTR-Energy Veritas 2.1 & Linn sub Computer Rm: Touch-Headroom Desktop w/DAC-Aragon amp-Energy Veritas 2.1 & Energy sub Bedroom: Touch-HR Desktop w/DAC-Audio Refinement amp-Energy Veritas 2.0 Guest Rm: Duet-Sony soundbar Garage: SB3-JVC compact system Controls: iPeng; SB Controller; Moose & Muso Server: SBS on dedicated windows 7 computer w/2 Drobos 'Last.fm' (http://www.last.fm/user/jazzfann/) ralphpnj's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=10827 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=103842 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Is anybody sick of the recent spate of threads?
ralphpnj wrote: > Another zombie lie (lies that continue to persist in spike of debunked > over and over and over) > > https://www.climatecouncil.org.au/pause-in-warming-debunked > > http://www.scientificamerican.com/article/no-pause-in-global-warming/ > > http://insideclimatenews.org/news/04062015/global-warming-great-hiatus-gets-debunked-NOAA-study > > I suggest that you keep up with the current state of affairs in an issue > as important as global warming, aka climate change. Ouch. I didn't even notice the climate myths. But in retrospect I understand that I did just that, but on a subconscious level and would actually have propagated that opinion, had anyone asked me today. My mind was on audio, or at least I thought so. Obviously very dangerous not to be on one's toes every millisecond. Best Regards, Gandhi not often enough well recorded and mastered cds *|* dbpoweramp with accuraterip *|* flac *|* fanless asrock z77e-itx intel i5-3570t *|* ubuntu 12.04.1 lts 32-bit *|* lms 7.8.0 *|* brutefirdrc 3.0 (rewv5) *|* transporter (balanced out) *|* thule ia252b *|* audio physic scorpio *|* no fancy cables. *+* also some booms. *+* harmony 525s for them all, including waking the server from s3. Gandhi's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=58909 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=103842 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Is anybody sick of the recent spate of threads?
Gandhi wrote: > We actually agree. Perhaps I was unclear. I'll try again. > > Science is a method that has to be learned. But in general people can > actually think and plan things like trials and that must be one of our > few advantages on this harsh earth. (That and language. And being able > to sweat.) But some individuals have always been really good at that > they are genetically equipped with a sizable working memory, greater > than the average. It can also be trained. It enables deeper, more > abstract thinking, which is needed to think logically, plan ahead etc. > Everybody can't just mimic each other, nothing new would ever be > invented. We have made a great many inventions over the time, not just > fire and baking, which may have been found out in the wild and mimiced. > Also very important ideas like money, credit, insurance etc, that are > not found in nature. Not to mention hunting methods, building methods > and materials etc. Our forefathers may not have used the precise > scientific method, but they could think. However, at some point in time > we might have reached a critical mass, where the average intelligence > enabled us to make our living conditions significally better? It could > perhaps happen because people started living in larger communities. (If > you live in a tribe and meet 50 people in a lifetime, your brain might > not get as much impressions, and therefore training, as if you live in > NYC.) There something to that , there are more living scientist know than have ever died ? so they say . Main hifi: Touch + CIA PS +MeridianG68J MeridianHD621 MeridianG98DH 2 x MeridianDSP5200 MeridianDSP5200HC 2 xMeridianDSP3100 +Rel Stadium 3 sub. Bedroom/Office: Boom Kitchen: Touch + powered Fostex PM0.4 Misc use: Radio (with battery) iPad1 with iPengHD & SqueezePad (spares Touch, SB3, reciever ,controller ) server HP proliant micro server N36L with ClearOS Linux http://people.xiph.org/~xiphmont/demo/neil-young.html Mnyb's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=4143 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=103842 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Is anybody sick of the recent spate of threads?
Julf wrote: > I was at the founding meeting of the Finnish association of sceptics > back in the day, but found them a bit too fanatical. I am a supporter of > CSI (the Committee for Skeptical Inquiry), and do subscribe to the > Sceptical Inquirer. > > > > Michael Shermer is a great writer and researcher. But my personal > favourite scam exposers are Penn Jillette and Teller. Their 'Water > Bottle Survey' (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YFKT4jvN4OEhttp://) is > definitely relevant to this discussion... Penn JIllete is great . The Swedish sceptics are mostly booring but I pay the fee and keep them running . They expose some scam on yearly basis . Some of the members have written good books . They not fanatical not compared to the Americans . Main hifi: Touch + CIA PS +MeridianG68J MeridianHD621 MeridianG98DH 2 x MeridianDSP5200 MeridianDSP5200HC 2 xMeridianDSP3100 +Rel Stadium 3 sub. Bedroom/Office: Boom Kitchen: Touch + powered Fostex PM0.4 Misc use: Radio (with battery) iPad1 with iPengHD & SqueezePad (spares Touch, SB3, reciever ,controller ) server HP proliant micro server N36L with ClearOS Linux http://people.xiph.org/~xiphmont/demo/neil-young.html Mnyb's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=4143 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=103842 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Is anybody sick of the recent spate of threads?
jh901 wrote: > Ridicule is where it's at. > It would appear that ridicule is all you've got. > > Lord forbid Arny escape from Detroit for a few days and listen to some > actual household audiophile systems. Nah. If you actually had something useful to say, you'd have said it by now. arnyk's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=64365 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=103842 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Is anybody sick of the recent spate of threads?
Gandhi wrote: > We actually agree. Perhaps I was unclear. I'll try again. > > Science is a method that has to be learned. In general people can > actually plan things and that must be one of our few advanteges on this > harsh earth. But some individuals have always been really good at that > they are genetically equipped with a sizable working memory, greater > than the average. It can also be trained. It enables deeper, more > abstract thinking, which is needed to think logically, plan ahead etc. > Everybody can't just mimic each other, nothing new would ever be > invented. We have made a great many inventions over the time, not just > fire and baking, which may have been found out in the wild and mimiced. > Also very important ideas like money, credit, insurance etc, that are > not found in nature. Not to mention hunting methods, building methods > and materials etc. Our forefathers may not have used the precise > scientific method, but they could think. However, at some point in time > we might have reached a critical mass, where the average intelligence > enabled us to make our living conditions significally better? It could > perhaps happen because people started living in larger communities. (If > you live in a tribe and meet 50 people in a lifetime, your brain might > not get as much impressions, and therefore training, as if you live in > NYC.) Yes I understand what you're saying. Please keep in mind that throughout human history religion has acted, more often than not, as a kind of throttle on scientific knowledge and keeping the faithful "in the dark" regarding science, especially when the science runs counter to religious beliefs, helps to enable better "control" of the faithful. Add into this the fact while events will happen as they may, history is always written by those in power and throughout history religious leaders have been very powerful indeed. In other words, suppression of knowledge has always been a useful tool for those in power, as can be seen in my previous comments regarding climate change and zombie lies. Living Rm: Transporter-SimAudio pre/power amps-Vandersteen 3A Sign. & sub Home Theater: Touch-Marantz HTR-Energy Veritas 2.1 & Linn sub Computer Rm: Touch-Headroom Desktop w/DAC-Aragon amp-Energy Veritas 2.1 & Energy sub Bedroom: Touch-HR Desktop w/DAC-Audio Refinement amp-Energy Veritas 2.0 Guest Rm: Duet-Sony soundbar Garage: SB3-JVC compact system Controls: iPeng; SB Controller; Moose & Muso Server: SBS on dedicated windows 7 computer w/2 Drobos 'Last.fm' (http://www.last.fm/user/jazzfann/) ralphpnj's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=10827 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=103842 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Is anybody sick of the recent spate of threads?
ralphpnj wrote: > So gee how is that the Egyptians managed to build those pyramids? There > is an overwhelming bias in today's world that mankind lived in the dark > ages until Steve Jobs appeared on earth to save us mere mortals (I'm > exaggerating :)). Seriously there is a strong bias in favor of "modern" > science which only serves to discredit the very real scientific > achievements and discoveries that were made and that were well known > prior to The Dark Ages. For example the concept of logarithms was well > known hundreds of years ago > (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Logarithm#History). > > In particular this bias runs strongly in favor of electronics and > computer science and against what I would Newtonian science, i.e. the > everyday physical world. Of course my feelings on this issue are also > very biased by the fact that I am a mechanical engineer. Funny thing is > when one needs to dig a hole a simply shovel works a whole lot better > than an iPhone app. > > I'm not trying to be a Luddite but only to point out that much of the > foundation for today's modern marvels was laid many, many years ago. We actually agree. Perhaps I was unclear. I'll try again. Science is a method that has to be learned. In general people can actually plan things and that must be one of our few advanteges on this harsh earth. But some individuals have always been really good at that they are genetically equipped with a sizable working memory, greater than the average. It can also be trained. It enables deeper, more abstract thinking, which is needed to think logically, plan ahead etc. Everybody can't just mimic each other, nothing new would ever be invented. We have made a great many inventions over the time, not just fire and baking, which may have been found out in the wild and mimiced. Also very important ideas like money, credit, insurance etc, that are not found in nature. Not to mention hunting methods, building methods and materials etc. Our forefathers may not have used the precise scientific method, but they could think. However, at some point in time we might have reached a critical mass, where the average intelligence enabled us to make our living conditions significally better? It could perhaps happen because people started living in larger communities. (If you live in a tribe and meet 50 people in a lifetime, your brain might not get as much impressions, and therefore training, as if you live in NYC.) Best Regards, Gandhi not often enough well recorded and mastered cds *|* dbpoweramp with accuraterip *|* flac *|* fanless asrock z77e-itx intel i5-3570t *|* ubuntu 12.04.1 lts 32-bit *|* lms 7.8.0 *|* brutefirdrc 3.0 (rewv5) *|* transporter (balanced out) *|* thule ia252b *|* audio physic scorpio *|* no fancy cables. *+* also some booms. *+* harmony 525s for them all, including waking the server from s3. Gandhi's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=58909 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=103842 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Is anybody sick of the recent spate of threads?
Julf wrote: > The Flynn effect? Unfortunately it seems to have reversed in the 1980's, > and average IQ has actually gone down since. This could partially be > explained by the fact that natural selection isn't working any more (or > doesn't select for intelligence) in a society where we aren't constantly > fighting to survive (and every time I turn on the TV, I somehow think > there might be something to it). Ah yes, the Flynn effect. I guess natural selection nowadays works through the number of likes. And riding a bike in the dark with no lights while listening to music and scrolling in playlists on your smartphone, while wearing dark clothes and refusing to wear bicycle helmets because they ruin the hairdo. Exciting times! Is that very unfortunate decline representative for the entire world? The western world, I can imagine, but how about the less developed part, who recently just started to learn how to read and even can afford light to read books at night? Best Regards, Gandhi not often enough well recorded and mastered cds *|* dbpoweramp with accuraterip *|* flac *|* fanless asrock z77e-itx intel i5-3570t *|* ubuntu 12.04.1 lts 32-bit *|* lms 7.8.0 *|* brutefirdrc 3.0 (rewv5) *|* transporter (balanced out) *|* thule ia252b *|* audio physic scorpio *|* no fancy cables. *+* also some booms. *+* harmony 525s for them all, including waking the server from s3. Gandhi's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=58909 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=103842 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Is anybody sick of the recent spate of threads?
Gandhi wrote: > So according to neurocognition scientists, humans get more intelligent > by the decade, because of our environment. This curve has a name, which > I have forgotten. The Flynn effect? Unfortunately it seems to have reversed in the 1980's, and average IQ has actually gone down since. This could partially be explained by the fact that natural selection isn't working any more (or doesn't select for intelligence) in a society where we aren't constantly fighting to survive (and every time I turn on the TV, I somehow think there might be something to it). "To try to judge the real from the false will always be hard. In this fast-growing art of 'high fidelity' the quackery will bear a solid gilt edge that will fool many people" - Paul W Klipsch, 1953 Julf's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=42050 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=103842 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Is anybody sick of the recent spate of threads?
Wombat wrote: > Linking to CA for the proof of anything is a joke. Agreed (but you already knew that) SBGK wrote: > Just like the global warming theories haven't predicted the stall in > global temperatures Another zombie lie (lies that continue to persist in spike of debunked over and over and over) https://www.climatecouncil.org.au/pause-in-warming-debunked http://www.scientificamerican.com/article/no-pause-in-global-warming/ http://insideclimatenews.org/news/04062015/global-warming-great-hiatus-gets-debunked-NOAA-study I suggest that you keep up with the current state of affairs in an issue as important as global warming, aka climate change. Gandhi wrote: > I wonder about one thing. We invented the scientific principle 400 years > ago. (But perhaps the chinese actually invented it much earlier? They > were really good mathematicians 6,000 years ago, I think. Western > history books seldom include their history.) I find it hard to believe > that suddenly a mutation that allowed scientific thinking rapidly spread > over the world at that time. We must have been able to think like that a > long, long time, even if we didn't do that on a great scale. Has any > proof ever been produced that says that we have changed at all for > thousands of years? Since agriculture was invented 11,000 years ago we > have adapted to new food. But our mental capacity? Since the 1960s > (IIRC) we have started developing better concentration skills (bigger > working memory), because of the increasing amount of information we are > exposed to. That is said to translate directly to abstract intelligence. > So according to neurocognition scientists, humans get more intelligent > by the decade, because of our environment. This curve has a name, which > I have forgotten. But did this perhaps already start 400 years ago? If > so, could it have been the greater cities with more impressions, the > invention of the printing press and possibly time to read because of > better living conditions in general (if they were actually improved)? > Just thinking out loud... So gee how is that the Egyptians managed to build those pyramids? There is an overwhelming bias in today's world that mankind lived in the dark ages until Steve Jobs appeared on earth to save us mere mortals (I'm exaggerating :)). Seriously there is a strong bias in favor of "modern" science which only serves to discredit the very real scientific achievements and discoveries that were made and that were well known prior to The Dark Ages. For example the concept of logarithms was well known hundreds of years ago (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Logarithm#History). In particular this bias runs strongly in favor of electronics and computer science and against what I would Newtonian science, i.e. the everyday physical world. Of course my feelings on this issue are also very biased by the fact that I am a mechanical engineer. Funny thing is when one needs to dig a hole a simply shovel works a whole lot better than an iPhone app. I'm not trying to be a Luddite but only to point out that much of the foundation for today's modern marvels was laid many, many years ago. Living Rm: Transporter-SimAudio pre/power amps-Vandersteen 3A Sign. & sub Home Theater: Touch-Marantz HTR-Energy Veritas 2.1 & Linn sub Computer Rm: Touch-Headroom Desktop w/DAC-Aragon amp-Energy Veritas 2.1 & Energy sub Bedroom: Touch-HR Desktop w/DAC-Audio Refinement amp-Energy Veritas 2.0 Guest Rm: Duet-Sony soundbar Garage: SB3-JVC compact system Controls: iPeng; SB Controller; Moose & Muso Server: SBS on dedicated windows 7 computer w/2 Drobos 'Last.fm' (http://www.last.fm/user/jazzfann/) ralphpnj's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=10827 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=103842 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Is anybody sick of the recent spate of threads?
Mnyb wrote: > will[/B] believe in rubbish we are doomed to it by nature . There is always faith and authority... "To try to judge the real from the false will always be hard. In this fast-growing art of 'high fidelity' the quackery will bear a solid gilt edge that will fool many people" - Paul W Klipsch, 1953 Julf's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=42050 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=103842 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Is anybody sick of the recent spate of threads?
Mnyb wrote: > Yes I frequent sceptic websites to and are an active sceptic locally. I was at the founding meeting of the Finnish association of sceptics back in the day, but found them a bit too fanatical. I am a supporter of CSI (the Committee for Skeptical Inquiry), and do subscribe to the Sceptical Inquirer. > Dr. Shermer also provides the neuroscience behind our beliefs. Michael Shermer is a great writer and researcher. But my personal favourite scam exposers are Penn Jillette and Teller. Their 'Water Bottle Survey' (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YFKT4jvN4OEhttp://) is definitely relevant to this discussion... "To try to judge the real from the false will always be hard. In this fast-growing art of 'high fidelity' the quackery will bear a solid gilt edge that will fool many people" - Paul W Klipsch, 1953 Julf's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=42050 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=103842 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Is anybody sick of the recent spate of threads?
Julf wrote: > 'were not wired to think scientifically' > (http://eatingacademy.com/personal/wired-think-scientifically-can-done) > > "We are not genetically equipped to think logically or scientifically; > such thinking is a very recent tool of our species that must be learned > and, with great effort, overwritten. Furthermore, its likely that we > are programmed to identify and replicate the behavior of others, rather > than think independently, and independent thought may actually cause > emotional distress." Yes it's is an unnatural and learned way to think and act rationally . I do think 1 years is recent homo sapiens has been around circa 19 years . The scientific method may have been formalised very recently in it's current most stringent , and thus effective form very effective newton maxwell eistein planc et al had not been possible otherwise . But science is our check and balance otherwise we *will* believe in rubbish we are doomed to it by nature . Main hifi: Touch + CIA PS +MeridianG68J MeridianHD621 MeridianG98DH 2 x MeridianDSP5200 MeridianDSP5200HC 2 xMeridianDSP3100 +Rel Stadium 3 sub. Bedroom/Office: Boom Kitchen: Touch + powered Fostex PM0.4 Misc use: Radio (with battery) iPad1 with iPengHD & SqueezePad (spares Touch, SB3, reciever ,controller ) server HP proliant micro server N36L with ClearOS Linux http://people.xiph.org/~xiphmont/demo/neil-young.html Mnyb's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=4143 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=103842 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Is anybody sick of the recent spate of threads?
Mnyb wrote: > I've heard a lot of youtube lectures on this topic . But i have not yet > bougth the book > > http://www.michaelshermer.com/the-believing-brain/ > Gaawd, for a minute I thought the link pointed to a book by Michael Fremer! But now I feel better. Best Regards, Gandhi not often enough well recorded and mastered cds *|* dbpoweramp with accuraterip *|* flac *|* fanless asrock z77e-itx intel i5-3570t *|* ubuntu 12.04.1 lts 32-bit *|* lms 7.8.0 *|* brutefirdrc 3.0 (rewv5) *|* transporter (balanced out) *|* thule ia252b *|* audio physic scorpio *|* no fancy cables. *+* also some booms. *+* harmony 525s for them all, including waking the server from s3. Gandhi's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=58909 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=103842 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Is anybody sick of the recent spate of threads?
I've heard a lot of youtube lectures on this topic . But i have not yet bougth the book http://www.michaelshermer.com/the-believing-brain/ Yes I frequent sceptic websites to and are an active sceptic locally . Quote from it: " We form our beliefs for a variety of subjective, personal, emotional, and psychological reasons in the context of environments created by family, friends, colleagues, culture, and society at large; after forming our beliefs we then defend, justify, and rationalize them with a host of intellectual reasons, cogent arguments, and rational explanations. Beliefs come first, explanations for beliefs follow. Dr. Shermer also provides the neuroscience behind our beliefs. The brain is a belief engine. From sensory data flowing in through the senses the brain naturally begins to look for and find patterns, and then infuses those patterns with meaning. The first process Dr. Shermer calls *patternicity*: the tendency to find meaningful patterns in both meaningful and meaningless data. The second process he calls *agenticity:* the tendency to infuse patterns with meaning, intention, and agency. We cant help believing. Our brains evolved to connect the dots of our world into meaningful patterns that explain why things happen. These meaningful patterns become beliefs. Once beliefs are formed the brain begins to look for and find confirmatory evidence in support of those beliefs, which adds an emotional boost of further confidence in the beliefs and thereby accelerates the process of reinforcing them, and round and round the process goes in a positive feedback loop of belief confirmation.. " Main hifi: Touch + CIA PS +MeridianG68J MeridianHD621 MeridianG98DH 2 x MeridianDSP5200 MeridianDSP5200HC 2 xMeridianDSP3100 +Rel Stadium 3 sub. Bedroom/Office: Boom Kitchen: Touch + powered Fostex PM0.4 Misc use: Radio (with battery) iPad1 with iPengHD & SqueezePad (spares Touch, SB3, reciever ,controller ) server HP proliant micro server N36L with ClearOS Linux http://people.xiph.org/~xiphmont/demo/neil-young.html Mnyb's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=4143 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=103842 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Is anybody sick of the recent spate of threads?
Julf wrote: > "We are not genetically equipped to think logically or scientifically; > such thinking is a very recent tool of our species that must be learned > and, with great effort, overwritten. Furthermore, its likely that we > are programmed to identify and replicate the behavior of others, rather > than think independently, and independent thought may actually cause > emotional distress." That is one part of it - the other is that we live in a society increasingly dependent on technology, but with a very small, and decreasing, percentage of us being able to actually understand it. It does seem Clarke's third law applies - "Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic". So if you don't understand the technology, you think of it as magic - and what is the difference between a magic shiny translucent iThingamajig that transfers music from thousands of miles away in a millisecond, and fairies riding unicorns at that point? "To try to judge the real from the false will always be hard. In this fast-growing art of 'high fidelity' the quackery will bear a solid gilt edge that will fool many people" - Paul W Klipsch, 1953 Julf's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=42050 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=103842 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Is anybody sick of the recent spate of threads?
Julf wrote: > 'were not wired to think scientifically' > (http://eatingacademy.com/personal/wired-think-scientifically-can-done) > I wonder about one thing. We invented the scientific principle 400 years ago. (But perhaps the chinese actually invented it much earlier? They were really good mathematicians 6,000 years ago, I think. Western history books seldom include their history.) I find it hard to believe that suddenly a mutation that allowed scientific thinking rapidly spread over the world at that time. We must have been able to think like that a long, long time, even if we didn't do that on a great scale. Has any proof ever been produced that says that we have changed at all for thousands of years? Since agriculture was invented 11,000 years ago we have adapted to new food. But our mental capacity? Since the 1960s (IIRC) we have started developing better concentration skills (bigger working memory), because of the increasing amount of information we are exposed to. That is said to translate directly to abstract intelligence. So according to neurocognition scientists, humans get more intelligent by the decade, because of our environment. This curve has a name, which I have forgotten. But did this perhaps already start 400 years ago? If so, could it have been the greater cities with more impressions, the invention of the printing press and possibly time to read because of better living conditions in general (if they were actually improved)? Just thinking out loud... Best Regards, Gandhi not often enough well recorded and mastered cds *|* dbpoweramp with accuraterip *|* flac *|* fanless asrock z77e-itx intel i5-3570t *|* ubuntu 12.04.1 lts 32-bit *|* lms 7.8.0 *|* brutefirdrc 3.0 (rewv5) *|* transporter (balanced out) *|* thule ia252b *|* audio physic scorpio *|* no fancy cables. *+* also some booms. *+* harmony 525s for them all, including waking the server from s3. Gandhi's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=58909 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=103842 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Is anybody sick of the recent spate of threads?
Gandhi wrote: > Very interesting! You always link to such high quality articles. How do > you even find them? Thanks - but they seem to find me :) I guess I am lucky in having some interesting friends who forward/post a wide variety of stuff - but I have to use google (or duckduckgo, actually), as it is often a case of "I remember seeing something about that"... "To try to judge the real from the false will always be hard. In this fast-growing art of 'high fidelity' the quackery will bear a solid gilt edge that will fool many people" - Paul W Klipsch, 1953 Julf's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=42050 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=103842 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Is anybody sick of the recent spate of threads?
Julf wrote: > 'were not wired to think scientifically' > (http://eatingacademy.com/personal/wired-think-scientifically-can-done) > Very interesting! You always link to such high quality articles. How do you even find them? Best Regards, Gandhi not often enough well recorded and mastered cds *|* dbpoweramp with accuraterip *|* flac *|* fanless asrock z77e-itx intel i5-3570t *|* ubuntu 12.04.1 lts 32-bit *|* lms 7.8.0 *|* brutefirdrc 3.0 (rewv5) *|* transporter (balanced out) *|* thule ia252b *|* audio physic scorpio *|* no fancy cables. *+* also some booms. *+* harmony 525s for them all, including waking the server from s3. Gandhi's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=58909 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=103842 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Is anybody sick of the recent spate of threads?
jh901 wrote: > It makes more sense to you that any number of thousands of audiophiles > from Japan, Germany, France, UK, Canada, US, etc are brainwashed than > the far more obvious conclusion which is that you aren't interested in > understanding why the gear which I would likely buy reproduces recorded > music so much better than mass produced stuff in you would buy. Nah! > It's all the most epic business scam of all-time. Science. 'were not wired to think scientifically' (http://eatingacademy.com/personal/wired-think-scientifically-can-done) "We are not genetically equipped to think logically or scientifically; such thinking is a very recent tool of our species that must be learned and, with great effort, overwritten. Furthermore, its likely that we are programmed to identify and replicate the behavior of others, rather than think independently, and independent thought may actually cause emotional distress." "To try to judge the real from the false will always be hard. In this fast-growing art of 'high fidelity' the quackery will bear a solid gilt edge that will fool many people" - Paul W Klipsch, 1953 Julf's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=42050 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=103842 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Is anybody sick of the recent spate of threads?
jh901 wrote: > Your transparency mantra is hilarious. I'm not sure how you convinced > yourself, but I can see where it is convenient for you. Note that when > I "hit play" that the reproduced sound is extraordinary. None of the > gear is broken or otherwise deliberately designed with flaws. What you > hear at home is mediocrity if you are lucky. Transparency and all. And > science. I'm sure the sound at your place is extraordinary. You seem to have better speakers plus a larger and more treated listening room. In fact I would like to check out your system first hand, but unfortunately I live half a world away. But speakers and room are mainly the reasons that you have such a great sound. Since pissing contests obviously are very important to you, I quickly checked the published measurements of our respective gear that I could find. I easily conclude that, except for your speakers (presumably), my system actually measures better. This is because of your tube preamp, which colors the sound. Even J.A. was "a little disappointed". SOURCECOMPONENTS http://www.stereophile.com/content/cary-audio-design-cd-306-sacd-professional-version-sacdcd-player-measurements http://www.stereophile.com/content/slim-devices-transporter-network-music-player-measurements AMPLIFIERS http://www.stereophile.com/content/cary-audio-design-slp-05-preamplifier-measurements http://www.caryaudio.com/products/sa-200-2/ My integrated amplifier Thule IA252B measures better than the tube preamp, but I can't find a published measurement (though I have a broschure on paper at home). SPEAKERS http://www.stereophile.com/content/audio-physic-scorpio-loudspeaker-measurements I can't find a published measurement for the Focal Diablo Utopia III. I'm sure it's a much better speaker than mine, though. Please tell me if you find it. OOPS I won't even mention the designer speaker cables, or the power cables. Best Regards, Gandhi not often enough well recorded and mastered cds *|* dbpoweramp with accuraterip *|* flac *|* fanless asrock z77e-itx intel i5-3570t *|* ubuntu 12.04.1 lts 32-bit *|* lms 7.8.0 *|* brutefirdrc 3.0 (rewv5) *|* transporter (balanced out) *|* thule ia252b *|* audio physic scorpio *|* no fancy cables. *+* also some booms. *+* harmony 525s for them all, including waking the server from s3. Gandhi's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=58909 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=103842 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Is anybody sick of the recent spate of threads?
Mnyb wrote: > That you like the sound so much does not really imply that its > "reproduced" . I would count using vacuum tubes as flawed especially any > brand that's ever done a 300B amp like Cary, to use tube *is* to design > with flaws. > I think that what is going on with our science-hating correspondent is that he figured out all by himself on his own that it is pretty easy to turn the usual scientistic rhetoric around and get a reaction from many people of a scientific orientation that way. What he posts is actually meaningless to him, it is just empty rhetoric that he contrived to reinforce his need to feel superior. We might just wait for him to say something that he actually believes in... ;-) arnyk's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=64365 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=103842 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Is anybody sick of the recent spate of threads?
jh901 wrote: > Your transparency mantra is hilarious. I'm not sure how you convinced > yourself, but I can see where it is convenient for you. Note that when > I "hit play" that the reproduced sound is extraordinary. None of the > gear is broken or otherwise deliberately designed with flaws. What you > hear at home is mediocrity if you are lucky. Transparency and all. And > science. > > Send a local forum member my way to report back to you. Prepare a new > tactic in the meantime. That you like the sound so much does not really imply that its "reproduced" . I would count using vacuum tubes as flawed especially any brand that's ever done a 300B amp like Cary, to use tube *is* to design with flaws. And it the big scheme it's not strange at all the humans believe weird things audiophiledom is a very small thing , look up the newest diet or go to a health store , swim with dolphins deny climate change/evolution, fake cancer treatments homepathy, religions, racism the list goes on . As in US where only 60% do not believe in evolution that mean that about a hundred million people are even more fooled than audiophiles ! To only be an audiophile is to have a very limited flaw in the perception off reality . it's not at all strange that there is a whole cult/hobby/business grown around this . It is perfectly within human nature and we all get caught up in something similar from time to time . The key here is "critical thinking" to realise Im I drinking the cool aid now ? So the big picture is that probably >90 of the human population hold some very very weird belief or opinon of some sort close to their hearts , we are simply not built to experience reality "as is", every experience we have a re prefiltered via our subconsius/brain etc . We need a toolbox sometimes call it the "scientific method" . So that all audiophiles are missguided is not a very preposterous claim at all . Do you really think that the "scientific method" can be wrong regarding audio and at the same time be right about the medicine you use ? or why your car work or why your computers works (wonder why no one yet proposed that my excell spreadsheets would compute better with tube power supply ) . It's a method and a system it is not limited to audio . Main hifi: Touch + CIA PS +MeridianG68J MeridianHD621 MeridianG98DH 2 x MeridianDSP5200 MeridianDSP5200HC 2 xMeridianDSP3100 +Rel Stadium 3 sub. Bedroom/Office: Boom Kitchen: Touch + powered Fostex PM0.4 Misc use: Radio (with battery) iPad1 with iPengHD & SqueezePad (spares Touch, SB3, reciever ,controller ) server HP proliant micro server N36L with ClearOS Linux http://people.xiph.org/~xiphmont/demo/neil-young.html Mnyb's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=4143 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=103842 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Is anybody sick of the recent spate of threads?
jh901 wrote: > Your transparency mantra is hilarious. > Dismissing something this easy to prove scientifically is itself pretty hilarious. I've already told you about how some people have locked themselves in logic tight boxes. It is so convenient to have an object lesson right before us! > > I'm not sure how you convinced yourself, > Science. > > but I can see where it is convenient for you. > I can see how it is inconvenient for you due to your stated need to be that much better than everybody else. > > Note that when I "hit play" that the reproduced sound is > extraordinary. None of the gear is broken or otherwise deliberately > designed with flaws. > Since I don't know what sort of gear you have, how would I know? Unlike you, I have no delusions of my own omniscience as demonstrated below: > > What you hear at home is mediocrity if you are lucky. Transparency and > all. And science. > Please explain your hatred and distrust of science. arnyk's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=64365 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=103842 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Is anybody sick of the recent spate of threads?
SBGK wrote: > there is enough anecdotal evidence from people round the planet who have > changed buffer sizes in asio, wasapi, alsa to be certain that there is > an effect. I guess you didn't get the memo - anecdotal evidence is scientifically speaking worthless. Here are just a few ideas that were supported by anecdotal evidence from millions of people: (1) Flat earth (2) Phlogiston. (3) Earth is the center of the universe etc., etc. arnyk's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=64365 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=103842 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Is anybody sick of the recent spate of threads?
Gandhi wrote: > > > Wouldn't selling transparent stuff for a reasonable price be a very > strange scam? Your transparency mantra is hilarious. I'm not sure how you convinced yourself, but I can see where it is convenient for you. Note that when I "hit play" that the reproduced sound is extraordinary. None of gear is broken or otherwise deliberately designed with flaws. What you hear at home is mediocrity if you are lucky. Transparency and all. Send a local forum member my way via messaging. Cary Audio 306 SACD Pro | Cary Audio SLP-05 | Cary Audio SA-200.2 | Focal Diablo Utopia III __Acoustic treatment: DIY Cylinder Bass traps | "Rule of Thirds" for speaker & sweet spot position __Speaker Cables: Analysis Plus Big Silver Oval | Shunyata Venom series power cords and power conditioning jh901's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=18175 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=103842 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Is anybody sick of the recent spate of threads?
jh901 wrote: > It makes more sense to you that any number of thousands of audiophiles > from Japan, Germany, France, UK, Canada, US, etc are brainwashed than > the far more obvious conclusion which is that you aren't interested in > understanding why the gear which I would likely buy reproduces recorded > music so much better than mass produced stuff in you would buy. Nah! > It's all the most epic business scam of all-time. Science. Thousands of audiophiles are outnumbered by millions of engineers. Wouldn't selling transparent stuff for a reasonable price be a very strange scam? Best Regards, Gandhi not often enough well recorded and mastered cds *|* dbpoweramp with accuraterip *|* flac *|* fanless asrock z77e-itx intel i5-3570t *|* ubuntu 12.04.1 lts 32-bit *|* lms 7.8.0 *|* brutefirdrc 3.0 (rewv5) *|* transporter (balanced out) *|* thule ia252b *|* audio physic scorpio *|* no fancy cables. *+* also some booms. *+* harmony 525s for them all, including waking the server from s3. Gandhi's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=58909 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=103842 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Is anybody sick of the recent spate of threads?
bonze wrote: > You should know by now that those were his thorough tests. Ridicule is where it's at. Lord forbid Arny escape from Detroit for a few days and listen to some actual household audiophile systems. Nah. Cary Audio 306 SACD Pro | Cary Audio SLP-05 | Cary Audio SA-200.2 | Focal Diablo Utopia III __Acoustic treatment: DIY Cylinder Bass traps | "Rule of Thirds" for speaker & sweet spot position __Speaker Cables: Analysis Plus Big Silver Oval | Shunyata Venom series power cords and power conditioning jh901's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=18175 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=103842 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Is anybody sick of the recent spate of threads?
arnyk wrote: > > > Exactly. The recent spate of posts from jkeny appear to be just a > trolling expedition. The legendary troll is looking back at you in the mirror. Your constant claim that genuine audiophiles are anti-science is typical, meaningless rhetoric. This ploy isn't new. You may have invented though. It makes more sense to you that any number of thousands of audiophiles from Japan, Germany, France, UK, Canada, US, etc are brainwashed than the far more obvious conclusion which is that you aren't interested in understanding why the gear which I would likely buy reproduces recorded music so much better than mass produced stuff in you would buy. Nah! It's all the most epic scam of all-time. Science. Cary Audio 306 SACD Pro | Cary Audio SLP-05 | Cary Audio SA-200.2 | Focal Diablo Utopia III __Acoustic treatment: DIY Cylinder Bass traps | "Rule of Thirds" for speaker & sweet spot position __Speaker Cables: Analysis Plus Big Silver Oval | Shunyata Venom series power cords and power conditioning jh901's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=18175 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=103842 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Is anybody sick of the recent spate of threads?
SBGK wrote: > there is enough anecdotal evidence from people round the planet who have > changed buffer sizes in asio, wasapi, alsa to be certain that there is > an effect. Just like there is more than enough anecdotal evidence that unicorns exist. > The question I had was can this be measured? Depends on what "this" is. > It's fairly obvious to me that frequency output differs with buffer size > and now there seems to be a theory that would back that finding. What, exactly, is your theory? Would it be possible to state it in precise terms that can be discussed? What does "frequency output differs" mean? That the frequency response is altered? Or that there is some sort of frequency shift? I really wish people wouldn't try to use technical terms if they don't understand them. "To try to judge the real from the false will always be hard. In this fast-growing art of 'high fidelity' the quackery will bear a solid gilt edge that will fool many people" - Paul W Klipsch, 1953 Julf's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=42050 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=103842 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Is anybody sick of the recent spate of threads?
arnyk wrote: > Why don't you run your own tests? > > You've said the following: > > "real science would be trying to come up with theories to match the > evidence rather than ridiculing the evidence." > > can you back those brave words up with relevant action? there is enough anecdotal evidence from people round the planet who have changed buffer sizes in asio, wasapi, alsa to be certain that there is an effect. If abx showed there wasn't an effect then that would be a reflection on abx testing. When I broached the subject before on this forum the objectivists would say I was hearing things and bits are bits, but now we have accepted that usb can create an 8khz noise due to frame noise then I am theorizing that the same thing is happening when buffer sizes are changed ie a frame noise component is being tuned. The question I had was can this be measured ? It's fairly obvious to me that frequency output differs with buffer size and now there seems to be a theory that would back that finding. Touch optimisations http://touchsgotrythm.blogspot.co.uk/ SBGK's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=52003 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=103842 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Is anybody sick of the recent spate of threads?
arnyk wrote: > Why don't you run your own tests? You should know by now that those were his thorough tests. LMS Version: 7.9 TranquilPC T2-WHS-A3 - WHS 2011 2x Touch, 3x SB3 bonze's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=6150 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=103842 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Is anybody sick of the recent spate of threads?
SBGK wrote: > thing is your understanding of physics is flawed, the theories don't > match reality. Unless you think that everyone who hears any differences > in digital playback is hearing things. Just like the global warming > theories haven't predicted the stall in global temperatures the theories > of digital audio can't predict the differences people hear. Quite. But psychoacoustics can. And will. SBGK wrote: > real science would be trying to come up with theories to match the > evidence rather than ridiculing the evidence. This is clearly a misunderstanding. You seem to confuse 'observations' with 'evidence'. Evidence is what proves that observations reflect actual reality. Best Regards, Gandhi not often enough well recorded and mastered cds *|* dbpoweramp with accuraterip *|* flac *|* fanless asrock z77e-itx intel i5-3570t *|* ubuntu 12.04.1 lts 32-bit *|* lms 7.8.0 *|* brutefirdrc 3.0 (rewv5) *|* transporter (balanced out) *|* thule ia252b *|* audio physic scorpio *|* no fancy cables. *+* also some booms. *+* harmony 525s for them all, including waking the server from s3. Gandhi's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=58909 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=103842 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Is anybody sick of the recent spate of threads?
SBGK wrote: > I changed the buffer sizes in my Touch and hear enhanced high > frequencies with smaller values and reduced high frequencies with larger > buffers, has anyone tried to measure this effect ? It should be possible > to measure frequency differences. Why don't you run your own tests? arnyk's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=64365 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=103842 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles