Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] New AKM 4490 DAC
darrenyeats wrote: > > Well you have compared A/B (and let's assume level matched). > > The input impedance via XLR for a NAD M22 is 200k ohms! That's very > unusually high for a power amp, so your comparison speaks little to the > general case. > > (BTW, impedance aside, I think you're spoilt a bit by the Touch - it's a > well sorted DAC - not every cheap DAC is!) > Two words: sighted evaluation. arnyk's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=64365 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=104495 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] New AKM 4490 DAC
cliveb wrote: > In what way is an 800 Ohm output impedence "weak"? > Line level outputs on sources typically have an impedence of about 1k > Ohm, so the Touch's 800 sounds entirely normal to me. Modern line level outputs frequently have source impedances on the order of 50-75 ohms. 1000 ohms or thereabouts seems to me to be very old school. arnyk's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=64365 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=104495 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] New AKM 4490 DAC
StephenPG wrote: > Very important to level match Agreed. StephenPG wrote: > > Also, darrenyeats, my Touch sounds just fine into a Quad 306! Several points: - My comments are based on a 10k ohms input impedance, which for a Touch is barely 1 to 10 impedance relationship. - The input impedance of a 306 is 20k ohms, a much better situation. - The output impedance of an SB3 isn't that hight either (dipping to 550 ohms) ... did you compare A/B level matched to a DAC with low output impedance ... something like Schiit Bifrost at 75 ohms? If not, then arnyk's gorilla in the room has got an even bigger brother. pablolie wrote: > i have a Benchmark DAC2HGC. for convenience and consolidation of > sources. honestly i can't tell the DAC2 from the built-in Touch DAC if i > connect the latter direct. it is a pretty good one. the reason for the > external DAC is merely flexibility and consolidation. i basically think > competently DACs sound pretty darn indistinguishable (except for > built-in $1 stuff), but when you build a system there are other > considerations at work for me. Well you have compared A/B (and let's assume level matched). The input impedance via XLR for a NAD M22 is 200k ohms! That's unusually high for a power amp, so your comparison speaks little to the general case. Darren Check it, add to it! http://www.dr.loudness-war.info/ SB Touch darrenyeats's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=10799 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=104495 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] New AKM 4490 DAC
i have a Benchmark DAC2HGC. for convenience and consolidation of sources. honestly i can't tell the DAC2 from the built-in Touch DAC if i connect the latter direct. it is a pretty good one. the reason for the external DAC is merely flexibility and consolidation. i basically think competently DACs sound pretty darn indistinguishable (except for built-in $1 stuff), but when you build a system there are other considerations at work for me. ...pablo Server: Virtual Machine (on VMware Player) running Ubuntu 12.04 + LMS 7.7.5 System: SB Touch --optical->- Benchmark DAC2HGC --AnalysisPlus Oval Copper XLR->- NAD M22 Power Amp --AnalysisPlus Black Mesh Oval->- Totem Element Fire Other Rooms: 2x SB Boom; 1x SB Radio; 1x SB Classic-> NAD D7050 -> Totem DreamCatcher Computer audio: workstation --USB->- audioengine D1 -> Grado PS500e/Shure 1540 pablolie's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=3816 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=104495 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] New AKM 4490 DAC
Very important to level match, I know from experience owning a Touch and two Duets, the Duet outputs 1.8v and the Touch 2.0v. Enough to seriously skew any casual listening test. Also, darrenyeats, my Touch sounds just fine into a Quad 306! StephenPG's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=48249 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=104495 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] New AKM 4490 DAC
arnyk wrote: > some cases where the connection is balanced but there is a galvanic > connection might bear mentioning Indeed. Balanced does not automatically imply galvanically isolated. "To try to judge the real from the false will always be hard. In this fast-growing art of 'high fidelity' the quackery will bear a solid gilt edge that will fool many people" - Paul W Klipsch, 1953 Julf's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=42050 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=104495 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] New AKM 4490 DAC
Julf wrote:
> How did you determine that? Usually a high output impedance causes a
> slight drop in high *or* low frequencies depending on the configuration
> of the amp it is driving, but not both at the same time.
Julf wrote:
> True galvanic isolation is just that - true isolation, where there is no
> direct electric (galvanic) connection between the two devices. Done
> using isolation transformers or optoelectrics - either an optocoupler or
> a fibre connection.
>
> The best example is ethernet using twisted pair (cat5, cat6 or whatever)
> network cabling, where the ethernet interface contains tiny transformers
> ("magnetics") for the signal pairs.
Good examples, but some cases where the connection is balanced but there
is galvanic might bear mentioning:
USB 2.0 - two exceptions
(1) USB Power. A galvanically isolated USB device should supply its own
power
(2) Very high speed USB 2.0 (hard drives, etc) where the usual
transformer appears to be dispensed with for the sake of speed.
Also:
HDMI is not galvanically isolated, same basic reason as (2).
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Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] New AKM 4490 DAC
cliveb wrote:
> Does true galvanic isolation also require a break in the signal
> connections? If so, I have learned something.
True galvanic isolation is just that - true isolation, where there is no
direct electric (galvanic) connection between the two devices. Done
using isolation transformers or optoelectrics - either an optocoupler or
a fibre connection.
The best example is ethernet using twisted pair (cat5, cat6 or whatever)
network cabling, where the ethernet interface contains tiny transformers
("magnetics") for the signal pairs.
"To try to judge the real from the false will always be hard. In this
fast-growing art of 'high fidelity' the quackery will bear a solid gilt
edge that will fool many people" - Paul W Klipsch, 1953
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Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] New AKM 4490 DAC
Julf wrote: > Balanced doesn't necessarily provide any galvanic isolation, unless it > is implemented using transformers. A balanced, differential input does > provide a way to separate the signal from safety earth / power supply > ground, thus avoiding ground loops. Perhaps my use of the term "galvanic isolation" was not correct. I was referring to the fact that a proper balanced connection breaks the link between the ground planes. Does true galvanic isolation also require a break in the signal connections? If so, I have learned something. Transporter -> ATC SCM100A cliveb's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=348 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=104495 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] New AKM 4490 DAC
Julf wrote: > How did you determine that? Usually a high output impedance causes a > slight drop in high *or* low frequencies depending on the configuration > of the amp it is driving, but not both at the same time. Please don't ignore the 500 pound gorilla in this room - it was no doubt a casual sighted evaluation. arnyk's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=64365 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=104495 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] New AKM 4490 DAC
cliveb wrote: > While it is true that balanced doesn't really offer any noise immunity > advantages over the short runs we use in a domestic setup, I strongly > believe that the galvanic isolation it provides is worthwhile. Balanced doesn't necessarily provide any galvanic isolation, unless it is implemented using transformers. A balanced, differential input does provide a way to separate the signal from safety earth / power supply ground, thus avoiding ground loops. "To try to judge the real from the false will always be hard. In this fast-growing art of 'high fidelity' the quackery will bear a solid gilt edge that will fool many people" - Paul W Klipsch, 1953 Julf's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=42050 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=104495 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] New AKM 4490 DAC
darrenyeats wrote: > Well the Transporter is much more like it (100 ohms via RCA). My DAC1 is > 60 ohms via XLR. When I connected my Touch directly to my SCM50s I found > it a bit "stunted" at the frequency extremes, compared to the DAC1, > though otherwise really rather good. I attributed this to the output > impedance since the Touch is generally blameless otherwise, including > frequency response of course. Did you connect the DAC1 to your SCM50s using its XLR output? If you did, then I would say the reason that the Touch sounded "stunted" in comparison is far more likely to be because of its unbalanced output than its output impedence. (And of course if you didn't level-match then the comparison means nothing). While it is true that balanced doesn't really offer any noise immunity advantages over the short runs we use in a domestic setup, I strongly believe that the galvanic isolation it provides is worthwhile. I've always found that genuine balanced connection sounds somehow more "focussed" and "organic". A dyed-in-the-wool audiophile would probably say that the "blacks are blacker". Transporter -> ATC SCM100A cliveb's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=348 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=104495 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] New AKM 4490 DAC
Mnyb wrote: > ( besides the fact that any nearby industry had this for decades ) The high-end audio is very good at ignoring 100 years of scientific research, knowledge and progress.. :) "To try to judge the real from the false will always be hard. In this fast-growing art of 'high fidelity' the quackery will bear a solid gilt edge that will fool many people" - Paul W Klipsch, 1953 Julf's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=42050 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=104495 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] New AKM 4490 DAC
It really depends on what it drives , most active amps and preamps have input impedance of 10kohm or more in some cases much more . So it's not per Defenition a problem driving a power amp directly . With the wrong power amp or preamp you can have an issue . If I remember rigth some old professional standards have 600ohm as recommended input impedance such a component would be a problem for the touch to drive , especially if its output impedance varies with frequency ( or the driven amp,or preamp has similar issues varying input impedance . So just take care when pairing the Touch almost every normal component is ok . But some old pro stuff may not be ok or some of the more esoteric audiophool equipment , where they left sensible design practice in the dust can be issues . I have tried some of my squeezeboxes with a semi passive gamut preamp a decade ago, and it sounded polite , just as suggested :) but that's not what I consider good equipment today .. Their are two ideas here . Source very low impedance preferably 0 ohm no variation in the audible range 20-20k amp high impedance 20kohm or more also linear within 20-20k . Impedance matching source and sink should have the same impedance ( say 600ohm ) and also the reactive parts should match and be close to 0 so both source and sink should be close to resistive with the same impedance , a more old school aproach . As an off topic side note in industrial electronics ( where I work ) we have ditch both these ideas in the 60-70's going for current source transmission of analog signals ( in the rare case of using an analog signal at all ) 0-20mA or 4-20mA this is much more resilient to long cable lengths etc than trying to send a voltage the sender is a current source ( near infinite impedance ) and the recieving end is like 100 or 500 ohm ( preferably 100ohm high impedance inputs are prone to noise pickup , low impedance inputs basically " shorts " incoming noise ) the nice thing is that impedance can be whatever within a certain range current is current in a series circuit , this topology is linear until the source can't drive the circuit anymore usually due to the power supply which is usually 24 volts if that can't make 20mA there is a problem , but all is fine until you hit the limit . I think Krell used this idea for a while with some proprietary interface between amp and preamp , naturally touted as a revolutionary idea :) ( besides the fact that any nearby industry had this for decades ) Main hifi: Touch + CIA PS +MeridianG68J MeridianHD621 MeridianG98DH 2 x MeridianDSP5200 MeridianDSP5200HC 2 xMeridianDSP3100 +Rel Stadium 3 sub. Bedroom/Office: Boom Kitchen: Touch + powered Fostex PM0.4 Misc use: Radio (with battery) iPad1 with iPengHD & SqueezePad (spares Touch, SB3, reciever ,controller ) server HP proliant micro server N36L with ClearOS Linux http://people.xiph.org/~xiphmont/demo/neil-young.html Mnyb's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=4143 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=104495 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] New AKM 4490 DAC
darrenyeats wrote: > When I connected my Touch directly to my SCM50s I found it a bit > "stunted" at the frequency extremes How did you determine that? Usually a high output impedance causes a slight drop in high *or* low frequencies depending on the configuration of the amp it is driving, but not both at the same time. "To try to judge the real from the false will always be hard. In this fast-growing art of 'high fidelity' the quackery will bear a solid gilt edge that will fool many people" - Paul W Klipsch, 1953 Julf's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=42050 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=104495 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] New AKM 4490 DAC
Squeezemenicely wrote: > In the other thread you stated your age, this has also something to do > with it. I am just shopping for varifocals - so I am also getting used > to the idea that some things do not get better as age progresses. ;-) > This is not ageism, just a fact. I totally agree. That's why I said YMMV. While I can still hear up to 13kHz, there is a roll off above 8kHz. Think of the $$ I'm saving on not needing super tweeters!:) MichaelJ's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=43215 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=104495 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] New AKM 4490 DAC
cliveb wrote: > In what way is an 800 Ohm output impedence "weak"? > Line level outputs on sources typically have an impedence of about 1k > Ohm, so the Touch's 800 sounds entirely normal to me. Well the Transporter is much more like it (100 or ohms via RCA). My DAC1 is 60 ohms via XLR. When I connected my Touch directly to my SCM50s I found it a bit "stunted" at the frequency extremes, compared to the DAC1, though otherwise really rather good. I attributed this to the output impedance since the Touch is generally blameless otherwise, including frequency response of course. FWIW I found out about the output impedance being 800 ohms quite some time later. Darren Check it, add to it! http://www.dr.loudness-war.info/ SB Touch darrenyeats's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=10799 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=104495 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] New AKM 4490 DAC
Greg Erskine wrote: > Can you state what is the age group of people can respond to your posts? Oh come on. You probably know exactly what I mean. Obviously our hearing changes with age and is different with 70. But also if trying to hear the difference in audio equipment, it is best if you have not been partying at a Technoclub all weekend and made your ears bleed. Just reminds me of when I thought, there is no big difference in SD TV and HD, until I got glasses and was pretty amazed - I thought my sight was pretty perfect before. LMS 7.9.0 on Pi2 (Max2play) Synology DS-414 NAS Squeezebox Touch, Squeezebox Boom, Squeezebox Radio, HifiBerry PicorePlayer Schiit - BIFROST AKM 4490 Dac Spotify Premium Squeezemenicely's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=41812 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=104495 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] New AKM 4490 DAC
Squeezemenicely wrote: > In the other thread you stated your age, this has also something to do > with it. I am just shopping for varifocals - so I am also getting used > to the idea that some things do not get better as age progresses. ;-) > This is not ageism, just a fact. Can you state what is the age group of people can respond to your posts? >12 < 29 Greg Erskine's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=7403 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=104495 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] New AKM 4490 DAC
MichaelJ wrote: > I had been using the über version of that DAC. After setting up a > passive pre amp and A/B comparing it with the analog op of the Touch, I > sold the Bifrost. This was a subjective evaluation onlymy ears, my > equipment, my room. YMMV. In the other thread you stated your age, this has also something to do with it. I am just shopping for varifocals - so I am also getting used to the idea that some things do not get better as age progresses. ;-) This is not ageism, just a fact. LMS 7.9.0 on Pi2 (Max2play) Synology DS-414 NAS Squeezebox Touch, Squeezebox Boom, Squeezebox Radio, HifiBerry PicorePlayer Schiit - BIFROST AKM 4490 Dac Spotify Premium Squeezemenicely's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=41812 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=104495 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] New AKM 4490 DAC
darrenyeats wrote: > The analogue output of the Touch measures well, I like the harmonic > distortion profile (reducing distortion into higher orders, regarded as > "musical"). The main weakness is a weak output impedence of 800 ohms > meaning it should be used with an active preamp or integrated (not > direct to power amps or actives). In what way is an 800 Ohm output impedence "weak"? Line level outputs on sources typically have an impedence of about 1k Ohm, so the Touch's 800 sounds entirely normal to me. Transporter -> ATC SCM100A cliveb's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=348 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=104495 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] New AKM 4490 DAC
The analogue output of the Touch measures well, I like the harmonic distortion profile (reducing distortion into higher orders, regarded as "musical"). The main weakness is a weak output impedence of 800 ohms meaning it should be used with an active preamp or integrated (not direct to power amps or actives). Check out Stereophile for JA's measurements. Darren Check it, add to it! http://www.dr.loudness-war.info/ SB Touch darrenyeats's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=10799 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=104495 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] New AKM 4490 DAC
Fizbin wrote: > Anyone else using this DAC with their Squeezebox product, or more > specifically...a Touch? Does it bring it closer to the sound of the > Transporter? I had been using the über version of that DAC. After setting up a passive pre amp and A/B comparing it with the analog op of the Touch, I sold the Bifrost. This was a subjective evaluation onlymy ears, my equipment, my room. YMMV. MichaelJ's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=43215 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=104495 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] New AKM 4490 DAC
Anyone else using this DAC with their Squeezebox product, or more specifically...a Touch? Does it bring it closer to the sound of the Transporter? Fizbin's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=58734 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=104495 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
[SlimDevices: Audiophiles] New AKM 4490 DAC
The Schiit Bifrost now uses the new AKM 4490 chip, current users can even upgrade their DAC with a new board. That is what I did - and I love it. To me it sounds even better than the device was before. CAREFUL - no blind testing, not scientific - just an impression (please ignore, if you cannot live with this) Obviously the difference is not night and day - but the soundstage seems wider and more 3 dimensional. Also like a veil has been lifted, the highs are very clear and bass is very precise and powerful. The old Bifrost was more diffuse - but also very good. I think it is great that these devices are upgradeable. There is even a more expensive Multibit option, which is supposed to sound great. But I am staying in the Delta Sigma DAC camp for now. If you are looking for a DAC to make your Squeeze sound better, try out the Bifrost. LMS 7.9.0 on Pi2 (Max2play) Synology DS-414 NAS Squeezebox Touch, Squeezebox Boom, Squeezebox Radio, HifiBerry PicorePlayer Schiit - BIFROST AKM 4490 Dac Spotify Premium Squeezemenicely's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=41812 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=104495 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
