[SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Re: Best subwoofer for music under $1000?
There's nothing remotely dumb about using subs in mono. It just depends on your needs. Almost all sound in the the 20-40hz octave is in mono in the CD format. So, if your sub is "trolling" off your main speakers -- ie, you are letting your mains run their full range and just adding on the subs -- and you are crossing over the sub at 40-45hz, then mono is just fine. It is better, in a way, because you get a boost of some 3db or so. Nice if your subs drop quickly from 30/25hz-20hz, or if they distort when played too loud. Now, this is NOT the case when you are setting cross-overs for the mains and subs and when that cross over is above 40-45hz. At 60, 70, or 80 hz, you would obviously be loosing stereo information. With a system such as TacT (which can be accomplished, closely, without a TacT), you're using corner woofers -- not subwoofers -- crossed over at 200hz. You DEFINITELY want that to be in stereo. That's about it, really. For someone to claim that, somehow, you are missing vital information with mono subs crossed over at 40 hz is misleading. And, remember two things: 1) sound in that range is omniderectional, in the first place, so you're not going to get stereo imaging, and 2) a lot less than we think actually happens down there! -- highdudgeon highdudgeon's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=2195 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=20197 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
[SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Re: Best subwoofer for music under $1000?
Skunk Wrote: > If you hooked up two subs in mono you'd be... dumb. Guess I'm dumb! Not really, but I have 2 subs in mono. The reason is, I had an 8" quasi-sub (-3db @ 35Hz) to pair with my small speakers - I was crossing it over at 100Hz. The system sounded great on the long wall of a small, rectangular room. When I moved to a different house with concrete walls and larger rooms, this system just sounded totally wimpy. I added a larger sub, but didn't want to cross it over so high, obviously. So the small sub crosses at 100Hz and the large one at 60Hz. Both are in the corner, close to the 3 front speakers. The room is really an atrocity for music systems, with large openings on 3 sides, a brick fireplace wall on the other side, and no place for equipment except one corner. I manage to get pretty good sound despite the compromises. -- Pale Blue Ego Pale Blue Ego's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=110 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=20197 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
[SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Re: Best subwoofer for music under $1000?
A test tone at twenty cycles, "at volume" and for enough time to take a few measurements with an SPL meter leaves me feeling sick. -- highdudgeon highdudgeon's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=2195 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=20197 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
[SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Re: Best subwoofer for music under $1000?
jonheal Wrote: > I think that extended listening to a pure 16Hz tone without the > accompaning harmonics would probably melt your brain, or at least drive > you batty. Very low tones are used in some crowd-control weapons systems - Frequencies around 10-12 Hz tend to induce fear and panic in humans. -- Pale Blue Ego Pale Blue Ego's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=110 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=20197 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
[SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Re: Best subwoofer for music under $1000?
I think retail is around seven hundred or so. I got mine used. One was a steal at $425 and another somewhat less so at $500. -- highdudgeon highdudgeon's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=2195 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=20197 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
[SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Re: Best subwoofer for music under $1000?
highdudgeon Wrote: > Did I mention they are reasonably priced, well-built, and discrete? Yes, you did. But you didn't mention how reasonable! How much did you pay? -- zooropa320 2 Channel Setup: SB3 * Benchmark DAC1 * Classé Audio DR-15 mono blocks * Magnepan MG 3.5Rs * REL Strata III Music Server: Lian-Li PC-V2000B Case * Turbo-Cool 510 XE Power Supply * Tyan Thunder K8S Pro Motherboard * 3Ware 9500S-8 SATA RAID Card * 2 AMD Opteron 240 1.4GHz CPUs * 2 512MB PC3200 Corsair CAS 3 DRAMs * 8 250GB SATA Hitachi drives in RAID 5 http://www.last.fm/user/zooropa320/ zooropa320's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=3420 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=20197 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
[SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Re: Best subwoofer for music under $1000?
Actually, a major reason for firing them downwards is that it is an effective way of absorbing higher frequencies. I use ACI Force subs. Two of them, but not in stereo. I have them crossed over at 45hz (below 40 it's mostly mono, anyway, and using them summed gets you a bit more gain). They are very nice, I think. The price is right, for starters. They are small and discrete, which has much high WAF. Per my measurements, they live up to the promise of +/1 3db all the way down to 20hz. Adjustments are easy and ACI is kind enough to include a test disc, instructions, etc. I have tried them against REL's, TBI's, Velodynes, you name -- all more expensive by a good margin -- and the ACI don't give up a thing, and are even better than some. Oh, imaging: absolutely no change, except that bass is tighter, more focused, and more textured. Did I mention they are reasonably priced, well-built, and discrete? They only have 10" drivers, as opposed to the 12" woofers on my harbeth M40s, and they are far smaller. They work together well -- a real bargain. -- highdudgeon highdudgeon's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=2195 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=20197 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
[SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Re: Best subwoofer for music under $1000?
pfarrell Wrote: > I would expect (again pure speculation) that the > impact of gravity is pretty modest. I read somewhere recently that gravity does have some effect, because over time, the magnet assembly will begin to "sag". I'm not sure if this affects the sound significantly. As for my new sub, the Dayton Titanic 10", I've been breaking it in the last few days. What can I say? It's awesome! It does exactly what I wanted it to do, which is to produce clean, musical bass. For $350, it's just about one of the best purchases I've ever made, ranking right up there with the SB3, of course ;) -- ezkcdude ezkcdude's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=2545 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=20197 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
[SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Re: Best subwoofer for music under $1000?
pfarrell Wrote: > > Several vendors talk about 'servo control' which > I take to mean some formal feedback control that > applies corrective power to the voicecoil to make it > have better control. Funny you mention that. I think servo control would be impossible with downfiring woofers, but I don't know. I recommended servo controlled subs at the beginning of the thread, because I've always seen them in the same sentence with 'musical sub'. Yup, feedback control. Comparison between what the signal's doing and what the woofer's doing, plus correction 'at the speed of light'. Like a smart sub. I'm now thinking, however, it's wiser to use cone/surround materials to strive for fast bass, rather than artificial intelligence. The old timers had it all figured out with paper cones. That would probably leave me needing a true sub to play <40Hz, at which point you guys would all be completely right about the uselessness of a binaural setup. My only argument all along has been that nobody's speakers play that low usefully, or if they do you're not worried about WAF in the first place... I hope there's no hard feelings. -- Skunk Skunk's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=2685 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=20197 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Re: Best subwoofer for music under $1000?
Perhaps this may also enhance the "floor shaking effect" for home theatre subs. My first sub was down-firing. It was cheap and didn't have a lot of output, but it was easy to control. My current sub is front-firing but down-ported, which is a bit unusual. It has much, much greater output but is a bit harder to control to eliminate boominess. Pat Farrell wrote: > Skunk wrote: > >> Why do people design subs with the driver pointed down? Wouldn't it >> make them slower to return from driver excursions, again I suppose it >> doesn't matter if you're reproducing explosions mostly. I'm not saying >> you think it's the ideal situation Pat, I just noticed you brought it >> up. > > I really don't know, I just buy them, not design them. > But the cone material is very light. Light and stiff is > the goal. Nearly all the weight in any driver is the > big honking magnet. And with any signal, the electro magnet > is pulling the voice coil (and cone with it) up. > I would expect (again pure speculation) that the > impact of gravity is pretty modest. > > Several vendors talk about 'servo control' which > I take to mean some formal feedback control that > applies corrective power to the voicecoil to make it > have better control. > > I think they point down because that keeps the > driver away from little kids and dogs pushing on it. > > > > > -- ___ Mark Lanctot ___ __ Find your next car at http://autos.yahoo.ca ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Re: Best subwoofer for music under $1000?
Skunk wrote: > Why do people design subs with the driver pointed down? Wouldn't it > make them slower to return from driver excursions, again I suppose it > doesn't matter if you're reproducing explosions mostly. I'm not saying > you think it's the ideal situation Pat, I just noticed you brought it > up. I really don't know, I just buy them, not design them. But the cone material is very light. Light and stiff is the goal. Nearly all the weight in any driver is the big honking magnet. And with any signal, the electro magnet is pulling the voice coil (and cone with it) up. I would expect (again pure speculation) that the impact of gravity is pretty modest. Several vendors talk about 'servo control' which I take to mean some formal feedback control that applies corrective power to the voicecoil to make it have better control. I think they point down because that keeps the driver away from little kids and dogs pushing on it. -- Pat http://www.pfarrell.com/music/slimserver/slimsoftware.html ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
[SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Re: Best subwoofer for music under $1000?
pfarrell Wrote: > > Hmmm, an old pot belly would be a sleeper, and might have enough > internal volume, round and the obvious place to put the driver > is the bottom pointing down. Why do people design subs with the driver pointed down? Wouldn't it make them slower to return from driver excursions, again I suppose it doesn't matter if you're reproducing explosions mostly. I'm not saying you think it's the ideal situation Pat, I just noticed you brought it up. -- Skunk Skunk's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=2685 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=20197 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
[SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Re: Best subwoofer for music under $1000?
ezkcdude Wrote: > Skunk, I'm just curious about something. If you had stereo subs, how > would you connect them in your system? I'm currently running my SB3 > directly into an amp that happens to have RCA line thru jacks, so > that's then sent to my sub. So, technically, I could hook up two subs > to my system, but I'm wondering how most people would do it, especially > with 2-channel systems or 5.1 preamp/receivers. Well my original recommendation was for you to research that, since everyones setup is different. I will go out on a limb and say you could use y adapters if it's a line thru, not a 'sub out' line that summed to mono (ie Low frequency extension in receivers). The option I had planned was sending high level signals in parallel with the main drivers, each using the drivers natural rolloffs and as little circuitry as possible. I'm open to suggestions on these methods though... -- Skunk Skunk's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=2685 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=20197 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
[SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Re: Best subwoofer for music under $1000?
Skunk, I'm just curious about something. If you had stereo subs, how would you connect them in your system? I'm currently running my SB3 directly into an amp that happens to have RCA line thru jacks, so that's then sent to my sub. So, technically, I could hook up two subs to my system, but I'm wondering how most people would do it, especially with 2-channel systems or 5.1 preamp/receivers. -- ezkcdude ezkcdude's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=2545 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=20197 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
[SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Re: Best subwoofer for music under $1000?
vdorta Wrote: > > I haven't heard the SACD, but I doubt I can hear stereo at 40Hz. All I can say is that if you are happy, I'm happy. I've provided plenty of references for anyone who cares to 'drink'. -- Skunk Skunk's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=2685 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=20197 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
[SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Re: Best subwoofer for music under $1000?
zooropa320 Wrote: > I really like the different wood options on those SVS subs. Big plus on > the WAF vs. my big black Paradigm PS-1200. If they look good and sound > good then what more can you ask for? Which model do you have Dan? I have the 16-46 PC-Plus. Since it's cylindrical it uses a small footprint. That's what I needed for a good WAF. I would love to have one with real wood veneer, but I couldn't afford it. Interestingly, with the SVS subs, the smaller the unit, the higher the output. The bigger ones go deeper and have less output. I don't know if it's true anymore, but you used to be able to email Tom, one of the founders, directly and he would send back detailed answers. Happy hunting. -- dancarne dancarne's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=2726 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=20197 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
[SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Re: Best subwoofer for music under $1000?
Skunk Wrote:
> This guy has equipment similar to yours, and liked ("bliss") the effect
> of two subs, which I'm not even sure were in stereo:
> http://www.10audio.com/rel_strat3.htm
>
> Have you heard Kodo's Mondo Head SACD? I've read that good engineers
> (which I do not claim to be) let individual channels, even on 5.1, play
> to 40hz before sending to the LFE channel./QUOTE]
>
> I visited the link and only found this to be relevant: "While a single
> sub provides all the bass notes, using two subs provides the power and
> dynamics that makes having great bass reproduction in the room very
> satisfying."
>
> No disagreement there, but that has nothing to do with subwoofer
> localization.
>
> I haven't heard the SACD, but I doubt I can hear stereo at 40Hz. Again,
> if I hear the right-to-left rolling drum of Hourglass going from right
> stage to left stage with my REL placed at the left front corner of the
> room, what else should I be hearing?
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[SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Re: Best subwoofer for music under $1000?
Robin Bowes Wrote:
> Skunk said the following on 01/29/2006 08:07 PM:
> > vdorta Wrote:
> >
> >> I agree with the non-localization of competently designed
> subwoofers
> >>crossed over in the lowbass/ midbass range.
> >
> >
> > Then I won't try to convince you otherwise. This guy has equipment
> > similar to yours, and liked ("bliss") the effect of two subs, which
> I'm
> > not even sure were in stereo:
> > http://www.10audio.com/rel_strat3.htm
>
> The point you're missing is that I'm not saying that it's not possible
> to get a better effect, more even bass coverage, etc. etc. by using >
> 1
> sub. I'm saying that you won't affect the stereo image (assuming, of
> course, you're crossing over your subs at a sufficiently low
> frequency).
>
> R.
I knew someone would say that, so I wrote the second part of my reply.
[see previous post]
--
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[SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Re: Best subwoofer for music under $1000?
Skunk said the following on 01/29/2006 08:07 PM:
> vdorta Wrote:
>
>> I agree with the non-localization of competently designed subwoofers
>>crossed over in the lowbass/ midbass range.
>
>
> Then I won't try to convince you otherwise. This guy has equipment
> similar to yours, and liked ("bliss") the effect of two subs, which I'm
> not even sure were in stereo:
> http://www.10audio.com/rel_strat3.htm
The point you're missing is that I'm not saying that it's not possible
to get a better effect, more even bass coverage, etc. etc. by using > 1
sub. I'm saying that you won't affect the stereo image (assuming, of
course, you're crossing over your subs at a sufficiently low frequency).
R.
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[SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Re: Best subwoofer for music under $1000?
vdorta Wrote:
> I agree with the non-localization of competently designed subwoofers
> crossed over in the lowbass/ midbass range.
Then I won't try to convince you otherwise. This guy has equipment
similar to yours, and liked ("bliss") the effect of two subs, which I'm
not even sure were in stereo:
http://www.10audio.com/rel_strat3.htm
vdorta Wrote:
> ..there is no localization at all, not even with the rolling drum of
> James Taylor Hourglass.
Have you heard Kodo's Mondo Head SACD? I've read that good engineers
(which I do not claim to be) let individual channels, even on 5.1, play
to 40hz before sending to the LFE channel.
This effect wouldn't be noticeable unless you wired the subs for
stereo, btw, which as Robin noted isn't the case just because you have
two.
I like my wide range drivers because the xmax is like 2mm, thus
avoiding lots of distortions resulting from long throw woofers. My
thinking is that you take the load off the wide range drivers, and run
subs to 80/120- but that's just me.
I only have one right now, but will build two when I actually have a
dime to spare.
I'm not a zealot, I don't sell subs, and consider myself 'anti
consumerism'. I fear I'm starting to sound like one though :)
--
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[SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Re: Best subwoofer for music under $1000?
vdorta Wrote: > I have been a fan of subwoofers way before they were part of the audio > mainstream and I agree with the non-localization of competently > designed subwoofers crossed over in the lowbass/ midbass range. A > couple of reasons why a subwoofer can be localized are: a shallow > low-pass crossover filter that lets the subwoofer reproduce high bass > and low midrange frequencies, and badly designed cabinets that vibrate > and resonate for lack of internal bracing and/or thin walls, thus > reproducing spurious sounds. I have used a REL Storm III for several > years now, set up at a corner and crossed over at 50Hz and below and > there is no localization at all, not even with the rolling drum of > James Taylor Hourglass. However, I previously had a Bag End S18 > (unbraced cabinet and fixed 95Hz/12dB crossover) that I was able to > localize on some music. I tend to agree, especially after listening to my new sub. I can clearly hear differences in bass response as I walk around the room. This is not to say that I can hear where it is coming from, though. It does seem apparent to me now that having two subwoofers placed in different parts of the room could even out this response. Like vdorta, this isn't really due to hearing the location of the subwoofer, but evening out the room response, which can be heard because the frequencies are higher. -- ezkcdude ezkcdude's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=2545 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=20197 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
[SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Re: Best subwoofer for music under $1000?
I have been a fan of subwoofers way before they were part of the audio mainstream and I agree with the non-localization of competently designed subwoofers crossed over in the lowbass/ midbass range. A couple of reasons why a subwoofer can be localized are: a shallow low-pass crossover filter that lets the subwoofer reproduce high bass and low midrange frequencies, and badly designed cabinets that vibrate and resonate for lack of internal bracing and/or thin walls, thus reproducing spurious sounds. I have used a REL Storm III for several years now, set up at a corner and crossed over at 50Hz and below and there is no localization at all, not even with the rolling drum of James Taylor Hourglass. However, I previously had a Bag End S18 (unbraced cabinet and fixed 95Hz/12dB crossover) that I was able to localize on some music. -- vdorta DIY computer (EAC/FLAC) --> wireless SB2 (Bolder digital & analog mods, Sonicap Platinum bypass caps, Bolder Deluxe Power Supply) --> Stello M200 monos --> ACI Sapphire XLs on dedicated Sound Anchors and REL Storm III | JMT PPA headamp with custom bass boost --> AKG K501 and Etymotics ER-4S vdorta's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=1446 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=20197 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
[SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Re: Best subwoofer for music under $1000?
Yep, just like this one, eh? And if you want to heat something up, just mount the plate amp on top! +---+ |Filename: pot2.jpg | |Download: http://forums.slimdevices.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=810| +---+ -- ezkcdude ezkcdude's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=2545 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=20197 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Re: Best subwoofer for music under $1000?
ezkcdude wrote: Yeah, I didn't really think that one out. Maybe I could find an old cast iron stove, and convert it into a subwoofer! Hmmm, an old pot belly would be a sleeper, and might have enough internal volume, round and the obvious place to put the driver is the bottom pointing down. An old Franklin stove has lots more internal volume. Could you put a small heater in the top to warm a pot of tea so it would not be totally unfunctional? -- Pat http://www.pfarrell.com/music/slimserver/slimsoftware.html ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
[SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Re: Best subwoofer for music under $1000?
I really like the different wood options on those SVS subs. Big plus on the WAF vs. my big black Paradigm PS-1200. If they look good and sound good then what more can you ask for? Which model do you have Dan? -- zooropa320 Audio gear: SB3 * Denon AVR-3802 * McIntosh MC-2120 * Paradigm Monitor 9s, CC-350, ADP-370s, PS-1200 Music server: Lian-Li PC-V2000B Case * Turbo-Cool 510 XE Power Supply * Tyan Thunder K8S Pro Motherboard * 3Ware 9500S-8 SATA RAID Card * 2 X AMD Opteron 240 1.4GHz CPUs * 2 X 512MB PC3200 Corsair CAS 3 DRAMs * 8 x 250GB SATA Hitachi drives in RAID 5 zooropa320's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=3420 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=20197 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
[SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Re: Best subwoofer for music under $1000?
Any sub you chose will be a compromise between Price/Performance/WAF/Your tastes/and What your looking for. It has to sound good to you in your living room. Since no one has mentioned SVS subs, I will. After many auditions of other brands were unsatisfying, I bought a 12" w/525w built-in amp from SVS. SVS is at http://www.svsound.com. It is the most accurate sub I have heard. It's hard to describe. It's never boomy. It's just indescribably deep and potent. It sounds great for HT, but my true love is music (blues, jazz, rock, classical.) SVS is web only sales. There were tons of critical reviews, so I felt comfortable ordering one. And have never regretted it. I had made several subwoofers that didn't work like I wanted. I auditioned lots of subs and most of them were not what I was looking for. They were boomy and unmusical. If I had the money, I'd have two SVS subs. I'm just grateful to have one, because I can end my pursuit of great bass. You'll think I'm full of it but in my living room it's flat down to 22Hz +/- 3dB and has meaningful output down to 14Hz. And, this with a sub costing less than $1,000. (I couldn't hear the 14Hz tone, but my son's t-shirt was flapping as he stood next to the sub I played that tone.) I feel the SVS sub accurately plays the bass that has been laid down on the CD. (Some CDs are real sleepers - there is very deep bass and there was no way to know it before.) My setup I used test tones and a mic to select the best location for the sub. I also adjusted the bass level with an Audio Control Richter Scale III because I have a huge peak at about 60Hz. The Richter Scale III also has a Linkwitz-Riley crossover. It sounds fantastic. Dan -- dancarne dancarne's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=2726 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=20197 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
[SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Re: Best subwoofer for music under $1000?
Is that a SB2 on top of the left speaker? -- Skunk Skunk's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=2685 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=20197 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
[SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Re: Best subwoofer for music under $1000?
Yeah, I didn't really think that one out. Maybe I could find an old cast iron stove, and convert it into a subwoofer! And...no...that's an alarm clock. Those speakers (sadly) are at my parent's place in Cali. -- ezkcdude ezkcdude's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=2545 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=20197 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Re: Best subwoofer for music under $1000?
ezkcdude wrote: In fact, it gave me a great idea for making veneer out of a thin sheet of cast iron. Not only would the look be unique, but it would seriously deaden the cabinet (if done correctly, of course). Thin sheet cast iron. Hmmm, is that like Army Intellegence? Or Honest Politician? Cost-effective Audiophile? I thought sheet meant rolled, and cast meant, well, cast. It sure would eliminate resonances in the cabinet. But would you need to reinforce the floor to hold it? I bet you could eliminate the spikes. -- Pat http://www.pfarrell.com/music/slimserver/slimsoftware.html ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
[SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Re: Best subwoofer for music under $1000?
Skunk Wrote: > PS. Thanks for the pics ezkcdude, but no more por favor! I meant I > wanted to see your veneer work, after seeing your DIY's, but didn't > realize it was textured plastic this time. That's how the cabinet comes in the kit! Sheesh, you think I'd do that? Actually, it looks kind of cool in person. It's kind of like faux cast iron. In fact, it gave me a great idea for making veneer out of a thin sheet of cast iron. Not only would the look be unique, but it would seriously deaden the cabinet (if done correctly, of course). Skunk, just for you, here's another DIY set I built with birch veneer. +---+ |Filename: diy_home_montage.jpg | |Download: http://forums.slimdevices.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=804| +---+ -- ezkcdude ezkcdude's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=2545 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=20197 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
[SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Re: Best subwoofer for music under $1000?
pfarrell Wrote: > > So you have at best dualing theories. > I never wanted to 'dual'. I just mentioned that using two subs is a ubiquitous suggestion. If it were a dual, you already lost-IMHO. I went to the outlaw site to read about the sub Jon mentioned, lo and behold they recommend using two. ___ "Q. I see you offer the S2 package. Do I really need two subwoofers? While the LFM-1 is capable of playing wall-rattling bass, the main benefit for two subwoofers is not added volume but a wider sweet spot. With one subwoofer, bass will only be optimized for one listening position. Using two subwoofers enables you to increase the size of the sweet spot to cover a wider portion of the listening area." [1] Granted they make no provision for size of mains etc, but their reasoning as listed is poor anyway. However, I can't find ANY sites that say definitevly, 'one sub is enough'. I would love to read something interesting if you have the links, Pat, but please no more crash test dummie articles. Jon made a good point that some of what helps us place a low tone in space is the accompanying harmonics, which I see as a further reason to use two subs. I agree that using the eq will solve more problems than it creates, if used correctly, however smoother frequency response is but one of the advantages of two subs. I also agree that two subs are more expensive, but would the sound be better through equalization than it would have been by investing in a second sub? RE WAF->when talking theoretically there is no room for wifey in the equations. The most important aspect, which seems to be getting ignored by everyone but me, is probably envelopment of sound in the VLF's. When Robin Miller did testing with a panel of 6 recording professionals, 3 could locate to 50hz, and 1 to 45hz reliably. However, the interesting thing is how the subjects described the differences in sound. In mono the the description of the VLF sounds went from 'merely varying in level' at 1Hz to 'strongly and uncomfortably localized in-head' at the upper reaches of the VLF's. Contrast that with the binaural sounds being described as 'swirling around the room', and 'like a slowly revolving hula hoop around the head'. Sounds fun to me :) The results, Robin found, were most effective at 56Hz and higher, with diminished effect at 50-45 Hz. I'd be happy to note also that there was no spatial impression below 45Hz. It's not like this is a new theory, see 6moons October 2003: "In fact, many listeners might even question the advantages of stereo separation below 40Hz to begin with. Their loss. " _[2] I just like a good discussion, and look forward to one. [1]http://www.outlawaudio.com/support/faq_lfm1.html [2]http://www.6moons.com/audioreviews/vbt/magellan82.html PS. Thanks for the pics ezkcdude, but no more por favor! I meant I wanted to see your veneer work, after seeing your DIY's, but didn't realize it was textured plastic this time. -- Skunk Skunk's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=2685 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=20197 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
[SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Re: Best subwoofer for music under $1000?
What's missing from this discussion is a sense of proportionality, not seeing the forest for the trees. We could go back and forth all day, for several days, about theoretical ideals while the practical realities dictate a different perspective. Unless one has an unlimited budget, we must make compromises when it comes to bass performance. By far the most influential factors on bass performance are room dimensions, and surfaces, and where the bass driver(s) reside in that room. Few of us have the freedom to create the ideal room,dimensionally or acoustically, or have unlimited options as to placement, so we immediately hobble ourselves with problems that have to be addressed if we are to experience satisfactory bass performance. Unless you're VERY lucky, there is virtually no chance that whatever sub you get will have reasonably flat response in the location(s) that you are limited to. Fortunately, there are products that address this problem that are reasonably priced, like the Behringer BFD, which solve more problems than they create by being able to lower nodes and smooth nulls. I'm sure there are some that will dispute THAT statement. As far as stereo subs are concerned, I would venture to say that there are precious few recordings where that would make so substantial a difference as to limit your enjoyment of them. Of course it would be an improvement but at a substantial expense and more complicated implementation. -- konut konut's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=1596 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=20197 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
[SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Re: Best subwoofer for music under $1000?
I got the Dayton 10" today, and put it together. I must be lame, because it took me a few hours. Figuring out the spikes took about 30 minutes. Installing amp took at least 30 minutes, because the damn thing didn't mount completely flush. I finally settled for it not being perfect, but it is securely screwed down, and I put some silicone sealant to make sure no air leaks out. Cutting and placing the acoustic foam took another 30 minutes or so, but that was kind of fun! The instructions say to spray adhesive on the foam backing, but I didn't bother. It was snug enough, that I'm sure the foam won't be flopping around in there. Next, I mounted the driver, which is one serious S.O.B. It feels like a lead weight, which actually makes me confident that I made the right decision. Well, that was it. I'll be breaking it in over the next week in my home theater system to loosen it up, before I move it to my dedicated stereo setup. I must say that my first impressions are that it is well made, and feels like it should sound good, if that makes sense. Stay tuned... +---+ |Filename: dayton1.jpg | |Download: http://forums.slimdevices.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=800| +---+ -- ezkcdude ezkcdude's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=2545 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=20197 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Re: Best subwoofer for music under $1000?
jonheal wrote: My friend had the subwoofer positioned behind and to the right of us. I believe he had it crossed-over at 80, or perhaps 100Hz. That is up in midrange area, so it isn't surprizing that you could locate it. Playing test tones was interesting. Unless they've heard a test disc, I don't think most people realize what a jarring experience it is to listen to a pure 25Hz tone. It's actually quite uncomfortable, physically. Right, down in the 20s, you feel it rather than hearing it. Many people have never heard clear tones under 30hz. Most people listen to music in cars over radio, sometimes even AM, which simply do not have any low frequency signal. The human ear is amazing, it can fill in signals that are not really there from the overtones. The classic example is a telephone, They are only 300hz to 3000hz. All the rest of the frequencies are added by our brains. I would offer the suggestion that any directionality one percieves from really low tones, like lowest notes on a pipe organ are due to the harmonics that are are accompaning it (and making it more palatable). I think that extended listening to a pure 16Hz tone without the accompaning harmonics would probably melt your brain, or at least drive you batty. Musical instruments are all about harmonics. That is what makes a guitar sound like a guitar, a trumpet sound like a trumpet, etc. Pure test tones are fairly rare, at least until Sean hacked the SqueezeBox to include a tone generator. The classic AR3A speaker was amazing, not because it was flat down below 40 hz, but rather because it got any low frequency sound out of a box that tiny. They were about 2 cubic feet, a foot by a foot by two feet high. That was tiny compared to serious speakers of the time. It did it using 'acoustic suspension' which required huge amounts of power to allow such a tiny box to go that low. Thirty years later, an AR3A would be considered a very large speaker. -- Pat http://www.pfarrell.com/music/slimserver/slimsoftware.html ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
[SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Re: Best subwoofer for music under $1000?
I was recently at a friend's house auditioning his Outlaw Audio LFM-1. This unit is rated flat to 25Hz. We listened to a variety of music and also to test tones. My friend had the subwoofer positioned behind and to the right of us. I believe he had it crossed-over at 80, or perhaps 100Hz. When he turned the volume up on the sub (while playing music), I could definitely percieve an increase in sound energy to my right and behind, not with pinpoint accuracy, but generally. Playing test tones was interesting. Unless they've heard a test disc, I don't think most people realize what a jarring experience it is to listen to a pure 25Hz tone. It's actually quite uncomfortable, physically. Furthermore, listening to the range of higher-frequency test tones revealed that I could change the apparent location of the source of sound by simply slightly rotating my head or moving forward or backward a few inches. I would offer the suggestion that any directionality one percieves from really low tones, like lowest notes on a pipe organ are due to the harmonics that are are accompaning it (and making it more palatable). I think that extended listening to a pure 16Hz tone without the accompaning harmonics would probably melt your brain, or at least drive you batty. -- jonheal Jon Heal says: Have a nice day! http://www.theheals.org/ jonheal's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=2133 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=20197 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Re: Best subwoofer for music under $1000?
Skunk wrote: pfarrell Wrote: If you want to believe that two sources is important for frequency reproduction of sounds below 40 Hz, I see no point in further discussion. I won't argue that. But do you cross your subs over at 40Hz? I have one sub. Crossed over about 45 or 50 hz. I haven't put a 'scope on it to verify the exact value. -- Pat Farrell [EMAIL PROTECTED] www.aframedigital.com ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
[SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Re: Best subwoofer for music under $1000?
pfarrell Wrote: > > Making them youself really does open up the possibilities. > A few years ago there was an audiophile article on a guy > who put the subwoofer in the basement, and had eight or so > 15+ inch drivers, The sound came up thru a furnace grate. > Something normal people could afford: http://home.new.rr.com/trumpetb/audio/rab009.html Or for the insane, the one you're referring to is this one, I think: http://www.royaldevice.com/custom.htm#THE%20REAL%20TOTAL%20HORN -- snarlydwarf snarlydwarf's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=1179 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=20197 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
[SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Re: Best subwoofer for music under $1000?
pfarrell Wrote: > If you want to believe that two sources is important for frequency > reproduction of sounds below 40 Hz, I see no point in further > discussion. I won't argue that. But do you cross your subs over at 40Hz? -- Skunk Skunk's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=2685 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=20197 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Re: Best subwoofer for music under $1000?
Skunk wrote: pfarrell Wrote: Humans are highly sensitive to location for high frequencies, mostly due to the shading caused by the head/distance between ears. I'm sorry Pat, but that makes absolutely no physiological sense. What is 'shading', I should ask. Humans are highly sensitive to localized sounds in all frequencies, even Very Low Frequencies (<100Hz). Since when are frequencies around 80 to 100 hz "very low"? Those are exactly the frequencies of the low strings on a normal, acoustic guitar, and the frequencies of a human bass voice. The standard tuning note in music is "A 440" meaning the A on the western musical scale that is at 440 hz. It is the A that is above 'middle C' on a piano. Middle C is at about 262 Hz. http://www.musicmasterworks.com/WhereMathMeetsMusic.html No one would call 'middle C' a low frequency. Yet an octave below it, is another C at about 131 hz. This is where the heart of western music melody lives, from about 100 hz to 500 hz or so. The human head is a big water ball. It blocks frequencies. Not all frequencies, and the specific frequencies depend on the person, or the head. For high frequencies, if the sound source is off on one side, that ear hears the sound directly. The other ear does not hear it directly because the head blocks it. It does hear reflected sounds. At low frequencies. the waves pass right through the head. google; head-related transfer function Look at the work done on biaural recording techinques using a dummy head. http://sound.media.mit.edu/KEMAR.html http://www.answers.com/topic/head-related-transfer-function And general localization research http://umsis.miami.edu/~tdallman/acoustics/hrtf/ A more factual description of the 'head/distance between the ears' theory, would be that binaural neurons in the midbrain I don't do inner brain stuff. I do a lot of recording. It is more physics than neurology. Acoustics is physics. Humans (or at least 99% of humans) can't place the source of that tone [41Hz] within 90 degrees. Verification? Concertgoers would tend to disagree, again, according to the paper. So you have at best dualing theories. pfarrell Wrote: and had eight or so 15+ inch drivers, The sound came up thru a furnace grate. That would be a mono subwoofer, and I won't speculate on the sound of a HVAC HiFi.. Yes, it was mono, as most people agree all sub woofer frequencies are. It is not a HVAC system, the grate is cheap and strong designed for people to walk over. Take a 40 Hz signal, which has about 20 foot wave lengths. Assume it is totally on one side of a person/stage/etc. What is the phase angle between the signals heard and processed at the right and left ears? There is no point in arguing belief. If you want to believe that two sources is important for frequency reproduction of sounds below 40 Hz, I see no point in further discussion. -- -- toc [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.curmudgeon4.us/ ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
[SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Re: Best subwoofer for music under $1000?
pfarrell Wrote: > Humans are highly sensitive to > location for high frequencies, mostly due to the > shading caused by the head/distance between ears. I'm sorry Pat, but that makes absolutely no physiological sense. What is 'shading', I should ask. Humans are highly sensitive to localized sounds in all frequencies, even Very Low Frequencies (<100Hz). In his Audio Engineering Society presentation '_Physiological considerations for A SECOND low frequency channel for bass management, subwoofers, and LFE_ 2005 New York' , Robin Miller sites Jeffress' model (1948) of Interaural Time Differences (ITD's), Interaural Level Differences (ILD's), and Interaural Phase Differences in brain function AS A SUPPORTING REASON to use STEREO subs. [1] A more factual description of the 'head/distance between the ears' theory, would be that binaural neurons in the midbrain contain electrochemical 'OpAmps', as outlined in Miller's paper, with inverting and non-inverting inputs used via 'delay lines' and 'coincidence detectors' to arrive at a point in the brain that tells us ' that sound is 100hz ~20degrees left of center '. Miller answers yes to the following questions: 1. Is it possible to perceive binaurally in the VLF (16--->100) 2. Is reproducing stereo bass in the VLF pleasing aurally. 3. Does current music/movie content support stereo bass. The paper is truly interesting for pre-med's as well as engineers. I highly suggest everyone check it out, especially since I did all the hard work of finding it for free :p (it's usually $20 on the AES site). [1] http://www.filmaker.com/papers/RM-2SW_AES119NYC.pdf pfarrell Wrote: > Humans (or at least 99% of humans) can't place > the source of that tone [41Hz] within 90 degrees. Verification? Concertgoers would tend to disagree, again, according to the paper. pfarrell Wrote: > If you have to have two of them, and they are reproducing the low E of a > normal guitar (~82 Hz) then they are woofers, not subwoofers. At least > to me. In theory, you have two seperate instruments, one produces the 40Hz vibrato on the left soundstage, the other subsequently produces the 42Hz bass vibrato on right soundstage. On a 2 mic recording those sounds will be localized, if not discernable by location in and of itself, then by envelopment of sound, which is what constitutes the base of the stereo experience itself, even moreso than imaging- at least to me. ezkcdude Wrote: > I have no plans to build stereo subs. OK. Others might. Robin Bowes Wrote: > Sorry, are you living in a parallel universe where the laws of physics > are different? DeNada. I like to think of it as 'outside the box', but I've been asked the same before :) Robin Bowes Wrote: > Below a certain point, low frequencies are omni-directional. End of > story. That's a poor thesis statement. Robin Bowes Wrote: > > Using two subs doesn't mean you have "stereo subs". If you hooked up two subs in mono you'd be... dumb. Robin Bowes Wrote: > I suggest you do take the time to construct a well-considered response. I tried to do so, Robin, especially for you. That is not a tongue in cheek statement in the least. I learn everytime I log on, and I have no doubt I've learned a lot from you. Robin Bowes Wrote: > > You sound like you're talking crap most of the time I'll be the first to admit I've been wrong. I'm also happy to admit when I am. I learn from it, and am grateful to the forum members for tolerating my crap. I hope to be able to return something tangible to the community as a token someday. Robin Bowes Wrote: > > If only so we can put you right. All you need to know is that my favorite color is green, and that was covered in the picture forum thread. pfarrell Wrote: > and had eight or so > 15+ inch drivers, The sound came up thru a furnace grate. That would be a mono subwoofer, and I won't speculate on the sound of a HVAC HiFi.. -- Skunk Skunk's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=2685 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=20197 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
[SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Re: Best subwoofer for music under $1000?
Fantastic education here all around - this is by far the best thread on the subject I've ever read, I really appreciate the knowledge and experience of the people contributing, very impressive, and nice that you're willing to spend time sharing. (I hope you all can keep it from degenerating further into a pissing match and personal attacks; there's a ton of good, valid engineering science, there are good opinions based on real-world experience, and even less informed opinion can prove educational in context - if there's a rebuttal I'd like to suggest keeping it "professional"). Thanks again for sharing all that excellent education, I'm learning fast from you guys (but as a non-acoustical engineer - I'm a network engineer - still not absorbing everything, more osmosing it!). -- joncourage joncourage's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=2837 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=20197 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
[SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Re: Best subwoofer for music under $1000?
I have no plans to build stereo subs. I believe that your perception of directionality (or "stereo") is due to room excitation (resonance). If you were sitting blindfolded in an olympic sized swimming pool (obviouslyunfilled), and a sub was placed 10 or 20 feet from you in any direction, and a 40 Hz warble tone was played right in front of you at 100 dB, you would not be able to tell me where it is coming from. I have read that the absolute minimum threshold of bass directionality is 80 Hz, and that the average person can distinguish directionality at about 180 Hz. Those are not really subwoofer frequencies though. I think the whole point of a "mono" subwoofer is that you shouldn't be able to distinguish directionality. Now, if you want increased output without building gigantic 3-ways or a refrigerator-sized sub, sure get two smaller subs. But as far as directionality, that's utter rubish. Edit: I should emphasize that, in practice, most subs probably are operating somewhere b/w 80-180 Hz. If that's the case, then sure, you can probably hear it. I specifically said, I want my subwoofer to only play the absolute lowest (true SUB-woofer) frequencies. IMHO, anything above 40, to be safe 60 Hz, is better left to midrange or smaller woofers than the sub. But whatever floats your boat. -- ezkcdude ezkcdude's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=2545 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=20197 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
[SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Re: Best subwoofer for music under $1000?
Skunk said the following on 01/26/2006 11:21 PM: > > Sorry to be vague and alarming, it was mostly directed at you- as Robin > will likely continue to believe there is no such thing as stereo bass > until the day he dies. Sorry, are you living in a parallel universe where the laws of physics are different? Below a certain point, low frequencies are omni-directional. End of story. > I do thank you for at least jumping in and adding a caveat to his > belief, but your brief history of driver sizes and terminology wasn't > much help. Pat's "brief history" was very helpful and confirmed my "belief". Below a certain point, low frequencies are omni-directional. End of story. > There are a plethora of ways stereo subs beat mono, on almost any > speaker. Even full rangers that 'do' 20 hz can benefit from the > adjustability of a seperate subwoofer cabinet. What if the best imaging > comes from speaker placement that excites too many/not enough bass > modes? Time to compromise. That's a different argument completely. Sure, >1 sub might get a better result, but it's nothing to do with stereo imaging. Using two subs doesn't mean you have "stereo subs". > The bottom line is, ezkcdude would notice the difference with his > speakers or I wouldn't have bothered writing it. I would love to type a > well informed response that actually proved my point- but I don't have > time. He may well do; I didn't suggest otherwise. Again, nothing to do with stereo. I suggest you do take the time to construct a well-considered response. You sound like you're talking crap most of the time, so some rationale to back it up would be helpful. If only so we can put you right. Robin Bowes B.Eng(Hons) Electroacoustics ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Re: Best subwoofer for music under $1000?
Skunk wrote: There are a plethora of ways stereo subs beat mono, on almost any speaker. Even full rangers that 'do' 20 hz can benefit from the adjustability of a seperate subwoofer cabinet. What if the best imaging comes from speaker placement that excites too many/not enough bass modes? Time to compromise. True. Of course most real people's rooms have serious problems with bass, standing waves, etc. Having two may help, but real solutions usually require things with terrible WAF such as Ethan Winer's Real Traps. My advice is for ezkcdude to read up on the subject, especially since he's building them himself. It may be easier to build them more cheaply the second time if he doesn't have to buy precut wood etc, plans, etc. Making them youself really does open up the possibilities. A few years ago there was an audiophile article on a guy who put the subwoofer in the basement, and had eight or so 15+ inch drivers, The sound came up thru a furnace grate. -- Pat http://www.pfarrell.com/music/slimserver/slimsoftware.html ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
[SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Re: Best subwoofer for music under $1000?
pfarrell Wrote: > Skunk wrote: > >>> > > Two subs will give a smoother bass respponse> > >>> > > On the mailing list, it isn't clear what you are replying to, > but your wording seems a bit alarmist. Sorry to be vague and alarming, it was mostly directed at you- as Robin will likely continue to believe there is no such thing as stereo bass until the day he dies. I do thank you for at least jumping in and adding a caveat to his belief, but your brief history of driver sizes and terminology wasn't much help. There are a plethora of ways stereo subs beat mono, on almost any speaker. Even full rangers that 'do' 20 hz can benefit from the adjustability of a seperate subwoofer cabinet. What if the best imaging comes from speaker placement that excites too many/not enough bass modes? Time to compromise. The bottom line is, ezkcdude would notice the difference with his speakers or I wouldn't have bothered writing it. I would love to type a well informed response that actually proved my point- but I don't have time. My advice is for ezkcdude to read up on the subject, especially since he's building them himself. It may be easier to build them more cheaply the second time if he doesn't have to buy precut wood etc, plans, etc. -- Skunk Skunk's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=2685 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=20197 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
[SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Re: Best subwoofer for music under $1000?
I think it may be useful for me to discuss why I felt I needed a subwoofer, and how I will use it in my system. My 2-way speakers (which are DIY) are great in the frequency range that they are audible. I did a test the other day with the Stereophile Test CD bass warble tone. I could clearly hear output from my speakers down to 55 Hz, but I could not hear (or feel) anything at 40 Hz. I did not use my SPL meter, but I would guess the bass was down about 10-20 dB even at 55 Hz from the level at 200 Hz. Therefore I need a sub that basically goes from 20 Hz (or as low as possible) up to about 60-70 Hz. Therefore, I will set the hi-pass xover on my sub (Dayton Titanic 10") to it's lowest possible setting (40 Hz) and set the volume level so that it blends nicely with my speakers. The idea is that the sub completely fills in from 20 (o.k. maybe 30) to 40 Hz, and then starts to tail off until about 60-70 Hz (I believe at 6dB/octave). The intermediate range, therefore, from about 40-80 Hz, gets contributions from both the sub and 2-ways. I want to stress that I really want the sub to be as musical as possible. It should reproduce the lowest frequencies and blend seamlessly with the 2-ways. If anything, I will err on the side of lowering the sub volume, so that it does not "mask" the nice sound that I already get from my Scan-Speak 7" woofers (in their appropriate frequency range). I think this philosophy is very different from most home theater setups, because the LFE channel is really not part of the LCR mix of the main front speakers. Anyway, that's my 2, well, 3 cents worth on the subject. -- ezkcdude ezkcdude's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=2545 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=20197 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
[SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Re: Best subwoofer for music under $1000?
This just comes down to crossover setting. At the extreme, if you set your crossover at some high level like 120hz, then you will definitely localize the sub. The sub is performing just like the woofers in full-range speakers. Placing the sub behind the listening position or anywhere other than between the mains will tend to alter the stereo image. Setting the crossover at some point below 80hz makes the sub perform as a sub. Only the lowest of low frequencies go to it. Most folks can't localize even an 80hz signal. This makes sub placement (from an imaging perspective) irrelevant. One thing to keep in mind: Placing a sub is a tricky proposition. Low frequencies cause interesting room resonances. If you did a frequency sweep, you'd notice some amazing peaks and dips from the sub. Move the sub just a few inches and the sweep changes. The sound can be boomy or tight with the same sub just by changing its location. You also have to work with the phase setting on the sub. There are a lot of variables. Finally, the reason for two subs is to mitigate the placement issues. Many of the peaks and dips can be tamed if you have two subs. Of course, for many, the SOAF (significant other acceptance factor - gotta be policially correct here) will preclude the multi-sub option regardless of sound quality. David -- dnighorn dnighorn's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=872 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=20197 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Re: Best subwoofer for music under $1000?
joncourage wrote: Can you explain what you mean by "used only as a sub, and not as a general woofer"? Does this have to do mostly with what frequency range you send it? Yes, and the frequency response of the other speakers. In the olden days, speakers had woofers and went down at least unto the 40 Hz or 50Hz range. AR3, Large Advents, Klipshorns, lots more. Many of them didn't go down all that smoothly and there was often a fair amount of doubling as then went lower. But since 40 Hz is about where all kick drum sounds are, and is the lowest note on a bass guitar, everyone except Organ freaks were happy. Over the recent years, speakers have gotten smaller, and marketing driods have gotten loose with the terms. They talk about 6" woofers. In the olden days, something that small would be a midrange. So the idea of a subwoofer is to handle frequencies below what your woofer can handle. With a decent speaker that goes down to 35 Hz, the sub woofer only has to cover 10 to 40 hZ or so. And there isn't much below 25 Hz in most music. (I think the organ pedal notes in Thus Spak Zarenthrustra is about 18 Hz.). But to increase the WAF and for movie tracking that needs four or five speakers, the woofers shrunk or real processing was replaced by market droid speak. Something that has a "4 inch woofer" is not going to deliver real clean notes below about 90Hz. So the 'sub' now has to cover from 10 to 110 or evern 120 Hz. Some home theater systems have 'sub' spec'd at 120 Hz. which is not below anything that I'd call a woofer. I'm not sure of where bass becomes localized. It is clearly way below 120 Hz. And it may vary by person, training, golden ears, etc. If you have to have two of them, and they are reproducing the low E of a normal guitar (~82 Hz) then they are woofers, not subwoofers. At least to me. -- Pat http://www.pfarrell.com/music/slimserver/slimsoftware.html ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
[SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Re: Best subwoofer for music under $1000?
Pat, Can you explain what you mean by "used only as a sub, and not as a general woofer"? Does this have to do mostly with what frequency range you send it? If you just have front l/r monitors that go 40-20 and a sub does that mean you're using the sub as a general woofer and only having one could be perceivably inferior? Is the only way for a sub to be integral to use it with full range speakers? Thanx -- joncourage joncourage's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=2837 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=20197 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Re: Best subwoofer for music under $1000?
Skunk wrote: If you're an audiophile it matters... A single sub, especially if not placed directly beteen the two mains, will pull the stereo image towards it. Two subs will give a smoother bass respponse, and a more true to life stereo image, if you needed a sub in the first place that is. On the mailing list, it isn't clear what you are replying to, but your wording seems a bit alarmist. A proper sub used only as a sub, and not as a general woofer, is location free. Humans are highly sensitive to location for high frequencies, mostly due to the shading caused by the head/distance between ears. A 41 hZ tone, which happens to be low E on a string bass or bass guitar, has a wavelength of approximately 20 feet. Humans (or at least 99% of humans) can't place the source of that tone within 90 degrees. But if you have the cash and can deal with the low WAF, by all means put in more than one sub. Then you can start speculating as to the relative merits of one REL sub at $2000 or two cheaper $1000 a copy sub. -- Pat http://www.pfarrell.com/music/slimserver/slimsoftware.html ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
[SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Re: Best subwoofer for music under $1000?
If you're an audiophile it matters... A single sub, especially if not placed directly beteen the two mains, will pull the stereo image towards it. Two subs will give a smoother bass respponse, and a more true to life stereo image, if you needed a sub in the first place that is. -- Skunk Skunk's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=2685 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=20197 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Re: Best subwoofer for music under $1000?
Robin Bowes wrote: Skunk said the following on 01/26/2006 01:05 AM: Or what about the obligatory recommendation for stereo subs? Maybe you can build a second one to match when you've got the spare money. Lf sound is omni-directional so you there's no such thing as "stereo" subs. Sure, you can use two, but you won't get any locational information out of them. To be a little more picky. At normal 'sub' frequencies, all subs are location free. But depending on your main speakers, and where you cross them over, YMMV. If you never send anything over about 50Hz to the sub, you are golden. But if the crossover point is higher, or has a gentle cut off curve, you may find some signals up in the 80 Hz range, and those can be located. Some folks just use two subs to get 'more power' but that is usually not needed for music. -- Pat http://www.pfarrell.com/music/slimserver/slimsoftware.html ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
[SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Re: Best subwoofer for music under $1000?
Skunk said the following on 01/26/2006 01:05 AM: > Or what about the obligatory recommendation for stereo subs? Maybe you > can build a second one to match when you've got the spare money. Lf sound is omni-directional so you there's no such thing as "stereo" subs. Sure, you can use two, but you won't get any locational information out of them. R. ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
[SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Re: Best subwoofer for music under $1000?
dwc Wrote: > jazzfan, > What's the difference in looks between the vtf2 and the stf2? They're > both 19x14x18 black boxes. > > The spikes look different... > http://us.st11.yimg.com/store1.yimg.com/I/hsusubs_1879_205476 > http://us.st11.yimg.com/store1.yimg.com/I/hsusubs_1879_351509 > > -Dan The STF only has 1 port. It does not allow you to pull the other plug out and give it a bump in the higher freq for HT. I spoke with Dr. HSU and he said the STF is the VTF fixed in the extended low extension mode targeted for music applications. The STF also has a smooth cabinet to raise the WAF. The VTF-2 had a rough cabinet. My wife was happy to see the VTF go and the STF arrive due to the look of the VTF-2. Overall I belive the STF sounds every bit as good as the VTF-2 I had. I'm very happy with it. Oh, and yes, the spikes are nice. The VTF-2 had blocks for feet. I'm told the spikes are better sonically, but I can't say I'm hearing anything better due to the spikes... -- jazzfan jazzfan's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=917 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=20197 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
[SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Re: Best subwoofer for music under $1000?
Or what about the obligatory recommendation for stereo subs? Maybe you can build a second one to match when you've got the spare money. -- Skunk Skunk's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=2685 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=20197 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
[SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Re: Best subwoofer for music under $1000?
Just wanted to repeat that I ended up buying the 10" Dayton Titanic kit from Parts Express. I will post some pics (because Skunk said he's interested) and thoughts in this thread after I break it in. Thanks, everyone for all the comments/advice/suggestions. -- ezkcdude ezkcdude's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=2545 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=20197 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
[SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Re: Best subwoofer for music under $1000?
Goodness! Three pages of subwoofer recommendations and not one mention of SVS. Until now. SVS makes a substantial line of subs and is highly regarded (just like Hsu). I have two of them and could not be happier. They both play flat with useful output below 16hz. Not that going that low will help in music playback - unless you are a huge fan of organ music. David -- dnighorn dnighorn's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=872 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=20197 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Re: Best subwoofer for music under $1000?
--- ezkcdude <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > Here's another question, though. I think this has > been discussed > somewhere else, but can I use the analog outputs > from the SB3 to send > to the sub, and simultaneously use the coaxial > output for my DAC? > Otherwise, my amp does have a line out, so I would > use that, but I > figure the SB3 analog out may sound better. Yes, both analog and digital can operate simultaneously. This would work. Note you can have independent control of the volume as well if you set the digital volume fixed. It's a bit unconventional though. ;-) __ Find your next car at http://autos.yahoo.ca ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
[SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Re: Best subwoofer for music under $1000?
Doesn't the STF only have 1 port? -- ezkcdude ezkcdude's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=2545 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=20197 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
[SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Re: Best subwoofer for music under $1000?
jazzfan, What's the difference in looks between the vtf2 and the stf2? They're both 19x14x18 black boxes. The spikes look different... http://us.st11.yimg.com/store1.yimg.com/I/hsusubs_1879_205476 http://us.st11.yimg.com/store1.yimg.com/I/hsusubs_1879_351509 -Dan -- dwc dwc's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=1892 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=20197 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
[SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Re: Best subwoofer for music under $1000?
I swear by my REL and its speaker connection, but there are many good subwoofers out there. 'The Selah Audio Whomp!' (http://www.selahaudio.com/id1.html) at $950 is surely one of them. -- vdorta DIY computer (EAC/FLAC) --> wireless SB2 (Bolder digital & analog mods, Sonicap Platinum bypass caps, Bolder Deluxe Power Supply) --> Stello M200 monos --> ACI Sapphire XLs on dedicated Sound Anchors and REL Storm III | JMT PPA headamp with custom bass boost --> AKG K501 and Etymotics ER-4S vdorta's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=1446 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=20197 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
[SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Re: Best subwoofer for music under $1000?
ezkcdude Wrote: > Yes, another recommendation thread, but evidently there hasn't been one > specifically for subs. I want a highly musical sub, don't care about > explosions, special fx, etc., because I already have a sub for that. I > need a sub that will blend in nicely with my 2-way's that go down to > about 50-60 Hz. > > I've been looking at the Hsu VTF-2 or 3, Aperion Intimus 12" and ACI > Force. Anyone have opinions on these or others? I have owned the HSU VTF-2 and used it with Magnapan MMGs and my current MG12s. I sold the VTF-2, (never used the VTF thing), and currently use a STF-2 with my MG12s. I'm told the STF-2 is the VTF-2 running in the "musical" extended low end mode without the ability to pull a plug and make it have a extended boom for HT. It sounds wonderful and looks 100%+ better than the VTF-2. note: the Outlaw unit is just an OEM HSU and my SB2 sounds fantastic over my Maggies!!! -- jazzfan jazzfan's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=917 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=20197 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
[SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Re: Best subwoofer for music under $1000?
Skunk Wrote: > I'd like to see the cabinets when you're done- you should repost. I'll do that. Here's another question, though. I think this has been discussed somewhere else, but can I use the analog outputs from the SB3 to send to the sub, and simultaneously use the coaxial output for my DAC? Otherwise, my amp does have a line out, so I would use that, but I figure the SB3 analog out may sound better. -- ezkcdude ezkcdude's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=2545 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=20197 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
[SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Re: Best subwoofer for music under $1000?
I'd like to see the cabinets when you're done- you should repost. -- Skunk Skunk's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=2685 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=20197 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
[SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Re: Best subwoofer for music under $1000?
Just to finish this off, I finally decided to get the Dayton Titanic 10" kit from Parts Express. -- ezkcdude ezkcdude's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=2545 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=20197 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
[SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Re: Best subwoofer for music under $1000?
My mains are Meadowlark Kestrel II's. I would say that the VTF-3 is musical, as it blends very well with the mains. It extends the low end and punch in the room without otherwise being noticed. It's tight and accurate. I will add as a caveat that the box itself is pretty large. I have it behind a couch. It's also super-powerful. -Dan -- dwc dwc's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=1892 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=20197 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
[SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Re: Best subwoofer for music under $1000?
Would you say the VTF-3 is very musical? Also, what are your main speakers? I think at this point, I'm deciding between the Hsu (either VTF-2 or 3) and the Dayton Titanic 12" kit at Parts Express. -- ezkcdude ezkcdude's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=2545 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=20197 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
[SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Re: Best subwoofer for music under $1000?
Another HSU owner here. VTF-3 MK2. -- dwc dwc's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=1892 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=20197 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
[SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Re: Best subwoofer for music under $1000?
Man, there are a lot of different subs out there! -- ezkcdude ezkcdude's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=2545 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=20197 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
[SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Re: Best subwoofer for music under $1000?
Get a used Vandersteen 2W. I got mine for $500 (it retails for $1200) and couldn't be happier. Bass is deep and very fast. Excellent for jazz. Not your typical flabby home theater sub. This one was designed specifically for music. Check Audiogon for good deals on this model. Luck! Crooner -- crooner crooner's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=3379 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=20197 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
[SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Re: Best subwoofer for music under $1000?
ezkcdude Wrote: > Yes, another recommendation thread, but evidently there hasn't been one > specifically for subs. I want a highly musical sub, don't care about > explosions, special fx, etc., because I already have a sub for that. I > need a sub that will blend in nicely with my 2-way's that go down to > about 50-60 Hz. > > I've been looking at the Hsu VTF-2 or 3, Aperion Intimus 12" and ACI > Force. Anyone have opinions on these or others? I've heard nice things about the ACI subs. All of the subs in the REL ST series are very musical. The REL Strata III is available used for about $800-900. One of the easier subs I've dialed in, although any sub will require a fair amount of work to integrate well with a pair of satellite speakers. The Strata III is a sealed design, while I believe all the other subs in the ST line are ported. It won't go extremely low, or play extremely loud (try two subs for higher SPL) but it's very very fast. Probably best suited for small to medium sized rooms. -- JJZolx Jim JJZolx's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=10 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=20197 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
[SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Re: Best subwoofer for music under $1000?
How about the Outlaw Audio LFM-1? -- jonheal Jon Heal says: Have a nice day! http://www.theheals.org/ jonheal's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=2133 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=20197 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
[SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Re: Best subwoofer for music under $1000?
zooropa320 Wrote: > I own a Paradigm PS-1200 which is quite large (bordering massive!)and a > good value for the money IMO. Here are the specs: > http://tinyurl.com/psbw > > I'm happy with it but can't compare to anything else for you except to > say I like it much better than the Energy sub it replaced. I have the PS-1200, as well. It's nice for watching movies, but isn't as musical as I'd like. Thanks, everyone for the suggestions. -- ezkcdude ezkcdude's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=2545 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=20197 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
[SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Re: Best subwoofer for music under $1000?
You might take a look at the AV123 Rocket UFW-10. http://www.av123.com/products_product.php?section=subwoofers&product=3.1 Right now they have a sale $999.00 for a pair. Beautiful veneer finishes, sealed, 500 watt amp with 1 channel of parametric eq. Excellent reviews and first rate customer service. Tell 'em konut sent you, and they'll charge you 5% more. :0 -- konut konut's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=1596 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=20197 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
[SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Re: Best subwoofer for music under $1000?
For music, you want a sealed (not ported) sub. I bought a Dayton Titan 10" sub kit from Parts Express for several hundred bucks. The bigger ones are a little pricier, but might be just what you want. You put them together, but it's easy to do (no soldering, mitering, drilling, etc). Or, you can buy them assembled for a little more. -- Mike Anderson 'FREE RADICAL RADIO!' (http://nvo.com/cd) Hours of free radical MP3s. Mike Anderson's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=1705 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=20197 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
[SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Re: Best subwoofer for music under $1000?
I own a Paradigm PS-1200 which is quite large (bordering massive!)and a good value for the money IMO. Here are the specs: http://tinyurl.com/psbw I'm happy with it but can't compare to anything else for you except to say I like it much better than the Energy sub it replaced. -- zooropa320 zooropa320's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=3420 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=20197 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
[SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Re: Best subwoofer for music under $1000?
I've owned two Hsu subs, the now cancelled ASW-1201 automotive sub and the VTF-2 (the original one, not the current, much prettier, Mk.2 version). The only complaint I've ever had about them was that they're both ugly as sin. It looks like with the new wood finishes and slightly different box shapes on the current product line, Hsu is addressing that somewhat. I don't really get much use from the variable tuning frequency feature on the VTF; with it set to "low" mode it will already play quite a bit louder than I need in my fairly large room with plenty of sound-eating furniture, so I've never had any need to set it to "loud" mode. With that in mind, and if you can deal with plain black gloss, which seems to be the sole finish choice for the STF product line, you might consider the STF, which will save some bucks over the fancier VTF but should sould at least as good. The VTF is really good, to my ears at least (though as I've noted elsewhere, it was a little frustrating to get the crossover point set for a smooth transition with the Axiom M3s I use as main speakers). The ASW-1201 was a truly astonishing piece of work. I've heard a fair number of automotive subs and it was, by far, the best, without regard to size or price. Hsu builds good stuff! -- tls tls's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=3411 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=20197 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
[SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Re: Best subwoofer for music under $1000?
Carver Sunfire Junior -- Kyle Kyle's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=2541 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=20197 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
[SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Re: Best subwoofer for music under $1000?
Servo control ie REL -- Skunk Skunk's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=2685 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=20197 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
