[SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Re: Just a goofy question
joncourage;143925 Wrote: > Can you describe the pass-thru arrangement in more detail? This is > probably what I was getting at, but sounds like prob not available on a > cheap amp. I'm not really following all the other stuff on > external/active crossovers, and it seems like that may be a red > herring...? > > The pass-thru feature is also sometimes called loop out. This is included on some power amps (Musical Fidelity that I use has it on most of their power amps). The signal from the left output of the source component (preamp or Transporter, etc) feeds the first power amp via a single RCA cable. A second RCA cable then goes from the loop out of this 1st amp to the signal input of the second power amp. Similarly the right output from the source goes through the same set up with the 3rd and 4th power amps. The 4 power amps are then connected via speaker cable to the 4 pairs of input posts on the speakers. This cable can be four individual 2-core speaker cables or you can use special bi-wiring cable which has four conductors in each bundle. The 4 power amps do not need to be seperate monoblocs but can be a pair of stereo power amps, as long as at least one has the loop out sockets. Hope this helps clarify a bit. davep -- davep davep's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=61 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=28381 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
[SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Re: Just a goofy question
T-amp can't be bridged to mono. IIRC it's due to the design of the chip. If only home amps were as flexible as car amps! -- Skunk Skunk's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=2685 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=28381 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
[SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Re: Just a goofy question
davep;143915 Wrote: > Bi-amping and Bi-wiring are well known concepts that have been around a > long time. Both depend on having speakers designed to accept two > inputs each. (There are some tri-wiring set-ups also I believe). In > one you simply run two sets of speaker cables from the L and R output > posts on your 2-channel power amp to each speaker, and in the other you > have a seperate power amp (either half of a stereo amp or a single > monobloc) feeding each set of speaker posts via its own cable pair. > Suitably designed monoblocs have a "pass through" arrangement whereby > the two units on each side can be connected to the single source > output. > > I have been doing bi-amping for several years using four identical > monobloc power amps (Musical Fidelity), most recently into B&W Nautilus > speakers. Since the arrival last week of my Transporter I have taken > the pre-amp out of circuit and now run the Transporter's analog outputs > direct to the 4 power amps and on to the B&Ws. > > Sound is the best I have ever had in my own set-up and is continuing to > delight me as I spend more time listening. > > davep Can you describe the pass-thru arrangement in more detail? This is probably what I was getting at, but sounds like prob not available on a cheap amp. I'm not really following all the other stuff on external/active crossovers, and it seems like that may be a red herring...? Essentially, I'd be treating the T-amp like a monobloc (now there's another question - can the two channels of the t-amp be jumpered in some way? would it be desirable to do that, provide more power, etc?), so at the least you could bi-amp with 2 t-amps, but I wonder what the cheapest entry point would be to be able to use 4 amps like you're doing (like for instance, using a Y analog IC from the SB or DAC to 2 amps on each speaker for low/high speaker inputs, along with some way to jumper a stereo amp into a mono amp). Like I said at the start goofy question! -- joncourage joncourage's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=2837 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=28381 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
[SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Re: Just a goofy question
Bi-amping and Bi-wiring are well known concepts that have been around a long time. Both depend on having speakers designed to accept two inputs each. (There are some tri-wiring set-ups also I believe). In one you simply run two sets of speaker cables from the L and R output posts on your 2-channel power amp to each speaker, and in the other you have a seperate power amp (either half of a stereo amp or a single monobloc) feeding each set of speaker posts via its own cable pair. Suitably designed monoblocs have a "pass through" arrangement whereby the two units on each side can be connected to the single source output. I have been doing bi-amping for several years using four identical monobloc power amps (Musical Fidelity), most recently into B&W Nautilus speakers. Since the arrival last week of my Transporter I have taken the pre-amp out of circuit and now run the Transporter's analog outputs direct to the 4 power amps and on to the B&Ws. Sound is the best I have ever had in my own set-up and is continuing to delight me as I spend more time listening. davep -- davep davep's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=61 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=28381 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
[SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Re: Just a goofy question
CardinalFang;143841 Wrote: > To work well the active crossover would have to be closely matched to > the drive units I would imagine, so it's not surprising in some ways > that it was better without it. Actually, in my case, I was using woofers by Gradient that were designed to compliment the Quads, so their cross over should have been correct. Just sounded better without it. -- Bob Bressler Bob Bob Bressler's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=2217 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=28381 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
[SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Re: Just a goofy question
Triode;143867 Wrote: > We can argue about the terminology, but I'd view bi amping as different > from active speakers: > > Bi amp: amp -> crossover -> speaker driver unit > > Active speaker: crossover -> amp -> speaker driver unit > > In the first case the crossover needs to handle the power sent to the > speakers. The amp sees a high impedance for the frequencies which are > not handled by specific driver unit. Downside is that the crossovers > are lossy and need to use components which can handle the power. > > In the second case all the crossover is done at low power and so can > use higher quality components. The full power of the amp is then used > to drive the driver unit. They are both types of bi-amping. "Active speaker" is when you package the amplifier or ampllifiers together with the speaker (usually hanging off the back). "Active speaker" doesn't have to mean more than one amp per speaker, although it usually does. -- P Floding P Floding's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=2932 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=28381 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
[SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Re: Just a goofy question
We can argue about the terminology, but I'd view bi amping as different from active speakers: Bi amp: amp -> crossover -> speaker driver unit Active speaker: crossover -> amp -> speaker driver unit In the first case the crossover needs to handle the power sent to the speakers. The amp sees a high impedance for the frequencies which are not handled by specific driver unit. Downside is that the crossovers are lossy and need to use components which can handle the power. In the second case all the crossover is done at low power and so can use higher quality components. The full power of the amp is then used to drive the driver unit. -- Triode Triode's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=17 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=28381 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
[SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Re: Just a goofy question
P Floding;143846 Wrote: > This seems to be a very thorough writeup on bi-amping: > > http://sound.westhost.com/bi-amp.htm An interesting read. Definitely some good info in there, but I'm pretty confident he's wrong about having to put crossovers before the amps for the same reason I mentioned earlier: the passive xovers in the speakers themselves will cause such a high impedance at the undesired frequencies that no power will be drawn at those frequencies, thus no duplication of amp effort. Then again, maybe I'm wrong and have misunderstood all these years. It's happened before ;). -- azinck3 azinck3's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=3967 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=28381 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
[SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Re: Just a goofy question
joncourage;143756 Wrote: > If your speakers can handle bi-wiring, is it possible to bi-amp + > vertical bi-amp? In other words two amps for each speaker, one feeding > the hi, one feeding the low inputs. > > How would you connect your source device (say it's a Squeezebox)? A > Y-interconnect? > > If you do that, how do you figure the "output" rating (as in, "100 > watts per channel") comparable to a single stereo integrated? > > Thought it might be an interesting experiment to get 4 T-amps and > connect them this way, see how it sounds :-). Way too much time on my > hands. This seems to be a very thorough writeup on bi-amping: http://sound.westhost.com/bi-amp.htm -- P Floding P Floding's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=2932 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=28381 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
[SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Re: Just a goofy question
CardinalFang;143841 Wrote: > To work well the active crossover would have to be closely matched to > the drive units I would imagine, so it's not surprising in some ways > that it was better without it. Agreed. Don't forget that the speakers already have crossovers in them. Indeed, the speaker designers have taken great pains to ensure they've designed their crossovers properly for the specific drivers and enclosures they're using. Using the high/low binding bosts does not bypass the internal crossovers. Using an additional crossover (particularly one whose effects overlap those of the speaker's crossovers) could have a seriously detrimental effect on the sound. And not only for the obvious reasons--crossovers can interact in bizarre ways (a proper explanation of which might require an audio or electrical engineer). If you wish to alter the crossover points you really need to replace or bypass the internal crossovers. -- azinck3 azinck3's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=3967 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=28381 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
[SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Re: Just a goofy question
Bob Bressler;143816 Wrote: > I used to have a pair of Quads with separate sub woofers. I did the > bi-amp thing (identical amps) through a cross-over. One day, as an > experiment, I took out the cross-over and it sounded much better. > Perhaps cross over technology is harder than it looks or maybe it > simply didn't match the sound characteristics that I like, but it was > better without. To work well the active crossover would have to be closely matched to the drive units I would imagine, so it's not surprising in some ways that it was better without it. -- CardinalFang You're only young once, but you can be immature forever... CardinalFang's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=962 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=28381 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
[SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Re: Just a goofy question
I used to have a pair of Quads with separate sub woofers. I did the bi-amp thing (identical amps) through a cross-over. One day, as an experiment, I took out the cross-over and it sounded much better. Perhaps cross over technology is harder than it looks or maybe it simply didn't match the sound characteristics that I like, but it was better without. -- Bob Bressler Bob Bob Bressler's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=2217 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=28381 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
[SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Re: Just a goofy question
PhilNYC;143808 Wrote: > I think you also need to use identical amps if you're not using an > active external crossover...if the amps have different gain > characteristics, "passive biamping" will cause some imbalance in the > sound... Identical amps are helpful. But if at least one of the amps has some sort of gain adjustment then you'll be able to match them. This is a rudimentary "tone" control that I find to be an advantage of biamping. You can change the tonal balance of a speaker without having to run the signal through additional eq or xovers. -- azinck3 azinck3's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=3967 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=28381 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
[SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Re: Just a goofy question
azinck3;143795 Wrote: > Sorry if I was vague. You don't connect the amps to the same terminals > on the speaker. You connect one amp to the "high" terminals and the > other to the "low" terminals (I'm assuming we're talking about > bi-ampable speakers--if not, then you'd have to disassemble the speaker > and crossover assembly which is probably not advisable). A bi-ampable > speaker's "high" and "low" sections are electrically isolated from one > another (though they typically come with jumpers to connect them for > single-amp operation) so the amps' outputs won't be wired together. > The inputs to the amps are what you need to wire together. Both amps > for a given channel need to receive the same signal. This can be > accomplished numberous ways, the simplest of which is to use a y-cable. I think you also need to use identical amps if you're not using an active external crossover...if the amps have different gain characteristics, "passive biamping" will cause some imbalance in the sound... -- PhilNYC Sonic Spirits Inc. http://www.sonicspirits.com PhilNYC's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=837 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=28381 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
[SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Re: Just a goofy question
CardinalFang;143788 Wrote: > Are you sure about that? I thought the idea was an amp for each speaker > driver and bypass the crossover completely. If you just hook up the two > amps on each side to the same terminals, aren't you going to upset the > amps? I'm not sure how a T-amp would take to having its outputs wired > directly to another T-amp's outputs? perhaps if you somehow did a > push-pull arrangement it might be OK, but it's not somthing I've tried. Sorry if I was vague. You don't connect the amps to the same terminals on the speaker. You connect one amp to the "high" terminals and the other to the "low" terminals (I'm assuming we're talking about bi-ampable speakers--if not, then you'd have to disassemble the speaker and crossover assembly which is probably not advisable). A bi-ampable speaker's "high" and "low" sections are electrically isolated from one another (though they typically come with jumpers to connect them for single-amp operation) so the amps' outputs won't be wired together. The inputs to the amps are what you need to wire together. Both amps for a given channel need to receive the same signal. This can be accomplished numberous ways, the simplest of which is to use a y-cable. -- azinck3 azinck3's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=3967 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=28381 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
[SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Re: Just a goofy question
azinck3;143779 Wrote: > Actually, this is not necessary. You can run precisely the same signal > to both amps for each channel. There are crossovers in the speakers > themselves designed to do the job. And don't worry that this will > cause your amps to have to drive more of the audio band than you > desire, thus robbing them of power--it won't. The nature of a > driver/crossover arrangement is that the electrical resistance outside > of the target frequencies is very high, thus no power is drawn from the > amp for any but the frequencies the driver/crossover arrangement is > intended to produce. Are you sure about that? I thought the idea was an amp for each speaker driver and bypass the crossover completely. If you just hook up the two amps on each side to the same terminals, aren't you going to upset the amps? I'm not sure how a T-amp would take to having its outputs wired directly to another T-amp's outputs? perhaps if you somehow did a push-pull arrangement it might be OK, but it's not somthing I've tried. -- CardinalFang You're only young once, but you can be immature forever... CardinalFang's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=962 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=28381 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
[SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Re: Just a goofy question
CardinalFang;143759 Wrote: > I think you'd need an active crossover to split the signal before it > went to your amps. Actually, this is not necessary. You can run precisely the same signal to both amps for each channel. There are crossovers in the speakers themselves designed to do the job. And don't worry that this will cause your amps to have to drive more of the audio band than you desire, thus robbing them of power--it won't. The nature of a driver/crossover arrangement is that the electrical resistance outside of the target frequencies is very high, thus no power is drawn from the amp for any but the frequencies the driver/crossover arrangement is intended to produce. As proof that you can send both the highs and the lows the same signal consider that when connecting bi-ampable speakers to a single amp you simply connect the binding posts. Both the "high" and the "low" sections of the speaker receive the same signal and the crossovers sort out the rest. -- azinck3 azinck3's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=3967 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=28381 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
[SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Re: Just a goofy question
Thanks for the link. I figured it was Monty Python, but I thought it was a devil. -- Kyle Kyle's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=2541 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=28381 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
[SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Re: Just a goofy question
joncourage;143762 Wrote: > CardinalFang - While you always seem to be speaking from expertise and > experience (the sharing of which, much appreciated, btw!), your avatar > scares me. > :-) My favourite Monty Python sketch. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zO68fUMWx3g -- CardinalFang You're only young once, but you can be immature forever... CardinalFang's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=962 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=28381 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
[SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Re: Just a goofy question
joncourage;143756 Wrote: > If your speakers can handle bi-wiring, is it possible to bi-amp + > vertical bi-amp? In other words two amps for each speaker, one feeding > the hi, one feeding the low inputs. > > How would you connect your source device (say it's a Squeezebox)? A > Y-interconnect? > > If you do that, how do you figure the "output" rating (as in, "100 > watts per channel") comparable to a single stereo integrated? > > Thought it might be an interesting experiment to get 4 T-amps and > connect them this way, see how it sounds :-). Way too much time on my > hands. I think you'd need an active crossover to split the signal before it went to your amps. -- CardinalFang You're only young once, but you can be immature forever... CardinalFang's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=962 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=28381 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
