[SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Re: Strange Volume "Problem" Please Read and try This at you own system !!
Using the 6.5.0 release, my SB3 has a volume range of 100 now, instead of the original 40. I presume that to mean that each step represents 0.5 dB change in volume. Assuming I have the volume control effecting the digital output... if I wish to reduce the volume from a maximum of 100 so that in effect I have shifted each data sample by one bit to the left, then I need to reduce the volume by 6 dB, which means I set the volume to 88? What does the SB3 or Transporter do if I wish to reduce the volume by 9 dB? This is in essentially doing a bit shift of 1.5 bits? Does it then shift alternate samples by 1 bit, and the remaining by 2 bits? Just wondering. -- Ron F. Ron F.'s Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=5616 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=31165 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
[SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Re: Strange Volume "Problem" Please Read and try This at you own system !!
That's a shame as the x-psu sounds a lot better (at least in my system it does) than the standard wall warts... I wonder what might be wrong with it... At least I wasn't able to reproduce your findings - so mine must be working fine :o) -- Phil Leigh Phil Leigh's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=85 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=31165 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
[SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Re: Strange Volume "Problem" Please Read and try This at you own system !!
Hi, Everyone ! I Have found out what the problem was! To my Dac and Tube bufferstage i have an external powersupply "X-PSU v3" I Unplugged the "X-PSU" and plugged in the orginal powersupplys that came with the X-dac v3 and X-10 v3... Viola ! Wow Now i can´t hear any difference between 80%-100% Volume setting ! :-) The "X-PSU v3" must be broken and cannot deliver enuff power? /Mats :-) -- omega omega's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=9336 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=31165 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
[SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Re: Strange Volume "Problem" Please Read and try This at you own system !!
Reducing the digital output on the SB3(6.5)from 100 down to 95 helps deal with these poor recordings and stops the TacT's input indicator from flashing. Reducing the digital level down to 80 does not make the music sound more open. -- jhm731 jhm731's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=7685 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=31165 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
[SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Re: Strange Volume "Problem" Please Read and try This at you own system !!
Well - interesting results so far... (SB3-TACT 2.2-Altmann JISCO+UPCI-MF X-DAC v3+PSU, MF X-10 Tube buffer, Chord Signature interconnects) Firstly, I set the TACT peak indicator to 0dB to see what was going on with a few CD's. First up was the 1st Killers Album (Hot Fuss) - I took a wild guess this was going to be heavily limited and certainly the 0dB light is blinking on quite a lot. Then I checked Steely Dan, Everything Must Go and the remastered 1st Dire Straits album - I was slightly surprised that the light would come on occasionally with these - seems to be snare drum hits that are doing this (I haven't had time to visually inspect the WAV's). Anyway the next step was to change the "Digital Output is Fixed setting. Then I lowered the volume from 40 to 39 (I'm running 6.3.1 btw). The 0dB light now never comes on - which is what I'd expect, since I've just taken away the "16th bit" that would get the level up to 0dB (yes I know I'm simplifying). Fortunately my pre-amp lets me increment the level in 1dB "clicks" on the remote so I can easily make up the lost gain. Several tracks later I'm starting I'm not sure I can reliably hear a difference... So I tried lowering the digital volume to 36 (from 40) - I'm not sure quite how this relates to Mat's "80%" setting...anyway, more make-up gain later and I'm now starting to hear the impact of lowering the effective SNR (I'm adding quite a lot of gain in the pre-amp by now...) I think I'm going to set the level at 39/40 and live with that for a while before coming to any conclusions. If there is anything to hear as a result it will be coming from the DAC not having to handle 0dB peaks... I'm sure there used to be a school of thought that there shouldn't be anything at 0dB on a CD (I've always kept to a peak of -0.5dB) -- Phil Leigh Phil Leigh's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=85 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=31165 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
[SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Re: Strange Volume "Problem" Please Read and try This at you own system !!
omega;166478 Wrote: > > I prefer the 80%-90% volume setting because the music sounds more open > and less harsh treble. (More "tube like" sound) > About the "Fidelity Recordings" that are properly mastered, I prefer > the reduced volume setting on them to. > But mabye my mind is playing with me? > > What volume setting do you prefer? 80% 100% etc? > I prefer 100/100 on quality recordings hands down every time, but it's blind faith rather than abx results. I don't think the Sb is adding any faults, just amplifying poor recording techniques. Mostly I use an external zhaolu(?) 1.3 DAC, and I'm not sure how the digital outs would relate to those analog out graphs I linked to. I'm guessing the effects are similar though. -- Skunk Skunk's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=2685 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=31165 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
[SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Re: Strange Volume "Problem" Please Read and try This at you own system !!
Skunk, About the channel separation iam not sure, But i have done some more testing today. I prefer the 80%-90% volume setting because the music sounds more open and less harsh treble. (More "tube like" sound) About the "Fidelity Recordings" that are properly mastered, I prefer the reduced volume setting on them to. But mabye my mind is playing with me? What volume setting do you prefer? 80% 100% etc? I Think some of the "Effect" can be explained by the "Neilson_Lund paper" And some of other thinks like OP amps / Dac having more headroom? About the "Ideal Waveform" Squeezebox Volume setting test, is that from the SB3 Analog outputs? Newbuyer, I have only done some quick testing with the Analog output from the SB3. To make thinks clearer, i Compared my external dac to SB3 to find out if something was wrong with my Dac. But i emediatly heard that my dac sounded better than SB3 internal ones. I havent done so much testing regarding volume settings from the SB3 analog outputs. But as you wrote to compare the SB3 analogs, and your DAC, each at 80% is the right thing to do. I highly recommend Squeezebox! is extremely easy to use and sounds very good from the analog outputs. And if you want to go further with a external DAC or "The Transporter" then you have true HI-END ! :-) Best regards! /Mats :-) -- omega omega's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=9336 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=31165 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
[SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Re: Strange Volume "Problem" Please Read and try This at you own system !!
omega;166274 Wrote: > ...Have even tried the analog outputs from SB3 but my Dac sounds much > better at 100% volume... Hi omega, I'm confused by this above quote... Shouldn't you be comparing the SB3 analogs, and your DAC, each at 80% (not DAC at 100%) - as you were advising? -- NewBuyer NewBuyer's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=7862 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=31165 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
[SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Re: Strange Volume "Problem" Please Read and try This at you own system !!
Thanks Kim...I'll check this out tomorrow! -- Phil Leigh Phil Leigh's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=85 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=31165 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
[SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Re: Strange Volume "Problem" Please Read and try This at you own system !!
Phil Leigh;166340 Wrote: > So where does the TACT level control fit in? - I assumed it was before > the AD1896..are you saying it is after? > > Also what exactly is the level sensing measuring - I'd assume it was > the level on the way out of the unit (so you could see if the RC was > creating clipping by boosting. I gather from what you are saying it is > the level on the way in - is that right? The RCS level control is implemented somewhere in the digital processing section, which is after the up-conversion to 96kHz. I think the clip indicator (red light) refers to the input signal, not the output. If you have a S2150 amp following the RCS, you will see that its clip light is not synchronized with the RCS's so whatever's coming out of the RCS isn't what's being measured by the RCS clip indicator. Regards, Kim -- krochat -- SB3 (+linear) -> Big Ben -> TacT RCS 2.2X -> 2xS2150 -> Vandersteen 3a Signature + TacT W210 krochat's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=6579 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=31165 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
[SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Re: Strange Volume "Problem" Please Read and try This at you own system !!
omega;166274 Wrote: > > The Sound is more open and wider, Better channel separation, I fully trust that it sounds better in your system, the trouble comes when trying to understand how channel separation can be better when stereo crosstalk is louder. [settings 30/20 on the following equate to 75/50 currently: http://mysite.verizon.net/forumwebspace/RightMark/Test%20Reports/Volume.htm ] Those graphs seem to enforce one of the conclusions in the Neilson_Lund paper* : "An alternative is to to reduce the digital level in the playback environment prior to digital to analog conversion... The price for this constructional measure is a reduced signal-to-noise ratio in the D-to-A conversion circuit." * http://www.tcelectronic.com/media/nielsen_lund_2003_overload.pdf Which leads to my question: Does a Mobile Fidelity or other properly mastered album (Buena Vista Social Club is a good example that's listed in table1 of the above reference) sound better on your system with the reduced volume setting? -- Skunk Skunk's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=2685 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=31165 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
[SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Re: Strange Volume "Problem" Please Read and try This at you own system !!
krochat;166334 Wrote: > You might think so, but you're not. The RCS has an AD1896 asychronous > rate converter on the input that conceptually does a D-to-A-to-D on the > input signal to upconvert it to 96kHz for internal processing. You need > to reduce the digital level in the SB3 before it gets to the RCS input > to prevent digital overload in the AD1896 conversion process. > > Regards, > Kim Kim, Ummm - interesting. So where does the TACT level control fit in? - I assumed it was before the AD1896..are you saying it is after? Also what exactly is the level sensing measuring - I'd assume it was the level on the way out of the unit (so you could see if the RC was creating clipping by boosting. I gather from what you are saying it is the level on the way in - is that right? Obviously I need to do more research! ...I'll report back after some major playing about with levels. -- Phil Leigh Phil Leigh's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=85 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=31165 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
[SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Re: Strange Volume "Problem" Please Read and try This at you own system !!
everyone Reading this thread please try at your system and post your comments / Results. Best Regards ! /Mats :-) -- omega omega's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=9336 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=31165 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
[SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Re: Strange Volume "Problem" Please Read and try This at you own system !!
Phil Leigh;166320 Wrote: > However, I also remembered that I have the "max level" on the TACT set > to -6.9dB...so I'm already doing the "90%" thing in the digital domain > before the DAC. You might think so, but you're not. The RCS has an AD1896 asychronous rate converter on the input that conceptually does a D-to-A-to-D on the input signal to upconvert it to 96kHz for internal processing. You need to reduce the digital level in the SB3 before it gets to the RCS input to prevent digital overload in the AD1896 conversion process. Regards, Kim -- krochat -- SB3 (+linear) -> Big Ben -> TacT RCS 2.2X -> 2xS2150 -> Vandersteen 3a Signature + TacT W210 krochat's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=6579 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=31165 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
[SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Re: Strange Volume "Problem" Please Read and try This at you own system !!
OK I'll experiment! -- Phil Leigh Phil Leigh's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=85 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=31165 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
[SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Re: Strange Volume "Problem" Please Read and try This at you own system !!
Hi Igain! I just tried 90% this i quite good to, But the "Magic" comes at 80%!! Phil be sure to try 70%-100% (80% is best for me) I hear the improvment/Effect easiest att good recordings with "Room / Reverb in the recording" just played Vangelis the "city" Wow! /Mats :-) -- omega omega's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=9336 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=31165 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
[SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Re: Strange Volume "Problem" Please Read and try This at you own system !!
Sorry - I remembered you have to set the level detection threshold (doh!). Mins is set to -95dB so it acts as a "music is present" indicator... However, I also remembered that I have the "max level" on the TACT set to -6.9dB...so I'm already doing the "90%" thing in the digital domain before the DAC. -- Phil Leigh Phil Leigh's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=85 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=31165 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
[SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Re: Strange Volume "Problem" Please Read and try This at you own system !!
Whoo! - I have an RCS2.2X as well...how do you set up the clipping indicator? -- Phil Leigh Phil Leigh's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=85 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=31165 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
[SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Re: Strange Volume "Problem" Please Read and try This at you own system !!
omega;166305 Wrote: > > How are your digital volume setting? > My SB3 with the 0-100 volume scale is set to 90. My TacT RCS has a red light on the front panel that can be set to flash on digital zero on the input (i.e., clipping or near clipping). I just turned down the SB3 until that light quit flashing on a highly compressed pop album (Lina - Stranger on Earth). Regards, Kim -- krochat -- SB3 (+linear) -> Big Ben -> TacT RCS 2.2X -> 2xS2150 -> Vandersteen 3a Signature + TacT W210 krochat's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=6579 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=31165 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
[SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Re: Strange Volume "Problem" Please Read and try This at you own system !!
I'm going to try this (lowering the digital level by a small amount) later as it requires quite a complex comparative listening session. Having read the paper, one of the issues is how the DAC handles signals at 0dB - regardless of they got to be on the CD. Obviously what is on the CD is fixed, but I can see how it might help to give (the analogue parts of) the DAC a dB or so of headroom. I also have the X-DAc v3 and X10 so it should be interesting... -- Phil Leigh Phil Leigh's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=85 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=31165 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
[SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Re: Strange Volume "Problem" Please Read and try This at you own system !!
Tanks for the link/replay Kim! But if "Digital Clipping" is the problem, then must this happen in my dac because of to hot signal? Because if the signal is Clipped in the mastering there´s nothing i can do about it. (The distortion is already there) But i have found this 80% effect on all my music and most of it is before "The loudness War" maybe my dac in not "Clipping" but just sound better with more "Headroom"? How are your digital volume setting? Best Regards /Mats :-) -- omega omega's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=9336 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=31165 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
[SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Re: Strange Volume "Problem" Please Read and try This at you own system !!
omega;166274 Wrote: > > Is my Dac broken or something else wrong? > Probably nothing is wrong. Try it at 90% and see if it still sounds good. If it does, you've probably discovered one of the dirty little secrets of digital sound processing - digital overload, as explained here: http://www.tcelectronic.com/media/nielsen_lund_2003_overload.pdf We're fortunate that the SB3 has digital output attenuation. As you discovered, the folks using CD players have no way of fixing this problem. Regards, Kim -- krochat -- SB3 (+linear) -> Big Ben -> TacT RCS 2.2X -> 2xS2150 -> Vandersteen 3a Signature + TacT W210 krochat's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=6579 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=31165 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
