[SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Re: Suggestion: New mid-market player
Eric Carroll;174233 Wrote: > > If I look around at my very randomly chosen desktop :-), I see: > - Logitech THX 4.1 speakers (likely $400 when they came out, so $100 > speakers, not $50) > - Logitech trackball > - Logitech wireless gaming mouse > - Logitech DiNovo keyboard (my favourite keyboard ever) > - Logitech webcam > > And i have a number of Logitech keyboards and mice in my "dead tech" > closest. And, I didn't even known SD was bought by Logitech when I > first got my SB3s, so now I have 2 Logitech SB3s and a Transporter. > > That's a lot of Logitech gear. And, honestly, until I itemized it just > now, I would not have said I had a lot of Logitech stuff. > > Now, I am not typical computer user. I use computers all day, and I try > to buy the best, because I DO use it all day. For example my laptop is a > IBM (now Lenovo, there's another branding discussion) T60. > > This anecdotally suggests Logitech is not the bottom of the barrell, > and may have some kind of brand equity. The question is where and for > what. Yes, it is a lot of plasticky stuff with short life spans. Regarding keyboards: Most of today's computer users have never used a really good keyboard, so have no references. -- P Floding P Floding's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=2932 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=31935 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
[SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Re: Suggestion: New mid-market player
I've been avoiding this thread. Why? I don't know. Well, I finally read it today and it looked kind of familiar. http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?p=162233 Great minds think alike. -- konut konut's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=1596 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=31935 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
[SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Re: Suggestion: New mid-market player
FatElvis2000;174198 Wrote: > > I suggest you read any book on Brand Equity by David Aaker, If you have > not done so.. If you have, well... > > Percetions (and targeting) are everything. Actually, I have. Just to be clear the "If you have, well..." was the windup to the whole rest of the post. I didn't mean to imply (if you took it this way) that you didn't understand disruptive technologies. I'm not trying to be dismissive here, I think your position is interesting and has merit. I agree with you on branding and positioning... many other things being equal. But I have sat through way too many meetings where branding and positioning were considered the only thing, while a clearly disruptive technology was gutting the market position of the product at hand, despite millions and sometimes billions of branding equity having been invested. You may very well be right here. My crystal ball is as cloudy as anyone's. All I know is I personally love both the Transporter and SB3, and I don't self-identify as belonging to the "audiophilia" target community. I do have to agree my first reaction to Logitech acqustion was "huh? what? why them?". -- Eric Carroll Transporter-Bryston 3B SST-Paradigm Reference Studio 60 v.4 SB3-Rotel RB890-B&W Matrix 805 SB3-Pioneer VSX-49TXi-Mirage OM7+C2+R2 Eric Carroll's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=9293 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=31935 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
[SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Re: Suggestion: New mid-market player
Eric Carroll;173940 Wrote: > The price of many of the components, such as many of the DACs are > available on the Internet. Check out some of the volume pricing - the > cost of DACs is not as high as you seem to think. > > I think there is lots of margin in the Tp. And I bought it anyway. I never mentioned profit margin on cost of goods! I doubt that "much money" is being made on the Transporter, nor to I believe it's helping Slim Devices towards profitability. Read what people post! -- FatElvis2000 FatElvis2000's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=6725 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=31935 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
[SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Re: Suggestion: New mid-market player
FatElvis2000;174192 Wrote: > If I were an investor in Slim, I'd be asking serious questions about how > development resources are being allocated. If they would/will, I'm sure the will screw up the "company" (division of Mousitech) big time! ;-) -- P Floding P Floding's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=2932 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=31935 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
[SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Re: Suggestion: New mid-market player
Mark Lanctot;173901 Wrote: > Really? They can hardly meet demand. It's far exceeded their > expectations. > > Also you can bet there's a lot more margin in the Transporter than the > Squeezebox. 'Course you don't get the volume... Lots of companies have lost lots of money catering to the classes on supposed "high margin" products. The market for *any* type of $2,000 audio source component is limited. Imagine if Slim had put reosurces against a mainstream audiophile component? > But lots of companies do this - a high-end testbed that pioneers certain > concepts which eventually trickle down to the mainstream products. Slim > Devices have in fact specifically said so. And they're not much for > saying things about upcoming products, so this speaks volumes. Right -- companies with money to burn. If I were an investor in Slim, I'd be asking serious questions about how development resources are being allocated. -- FatElvis2000 FatElvis2000's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=6725 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=31935 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
[SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Re: Suggestion: New mid-market player
Skunk;173930 Wrote: > Black and Decker doesn't make high end drills! > > Dewalt does! > > Dewalt is owned by B&D!!! And yet... Logitech is tossing the Slim Devices brand. See my other post on this subject. JW -- FatElvis2000 FatElvis2000's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=6725 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=31935 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
[SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Re: Suggestion: New mid-market player
jmourik;174047 Wrote: > > How much lower grade is the AKM4395 that's used in the Stello DA100? > That unit sells for $700... Without experience with either, I'd say not much. According to the data sheets '96 does DSD and has a slightly higher sample rate. They both have differential output, 120db SNR, similar architecture etc. I have no idea how/if this translates audibly using PCM data. http://www.asahi-kasei.co.jp/akm/en/product/ak4395/ak4395_f01e.pdf http://www.asahi-kasei.co.jp/akm/en/product/ak4396/ak4396_f00e.pdf >From a marketing perspective it would be better to keep the higher 'grade' DAC because the difference costwise is probably chump change, whereas the ancillary components could be 'slimmed' down without removing the ak4396 badge. -- Skunk Skunk's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=2685 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=31935 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
[SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Re: Suggestion: New mid-market player
Pat Farrell;173950 Wrote: > The price of any product is the sum of BOM cost, engineering cost to > design, marketing cost, returns, support, marketing, etc. Most > audiophile manufacturers have tiny volume, typically only a million > dollars a year or so of revenue, which is not a lot of units when they > are $5000 (retail) amps or CD transports. Made me wonder how much it cost them to design the TP. Can't really be that much, also because they are a small company. A few people working on it diligently for a year? So maybe half a million $$$? No idea about marketing cost and such though. So I'm wildly guessing that they need to sell 300 units to get their initial investment back? Wouldn't be too bad... Marc Lanctot Wrote: > > Or will they move on to a lower-grade AKM than that used in the > Transporter? How much lower grade is the AKM4395 that's used in the Stello DA100? That unit sells for $700... ( http://hifi500.com/product/da100.htm ). SB3 + Stello = $1K... jan -- jmourik jmourik's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=7123 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=31935 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Re: Suggestion: New mid-market player
Eric Carroll wrote: But let me ask you something: where did you buy your Tp and SBs? At a high end audio store? Direct from Slim. The SB will be the mass market approach. I have been showing some friends how to use SBs to avoid speaker cabling their new house build. One SB per room without laying cables! At 300 per room, its cheaper than cable pulls if the walls are up! It is cheaper if you didn't plan ahead. I didn't when I had my house built 25 years ago, but a few years ago I got tired and ran four plastic conduits from the basement to the attic so I could have six Ethernet drops in my upstairs office, and three in my daughter's room. While dragging cable is a PITA, it is cheap, especially if you buy 1000 foot rolls and have all the punchdown and testing tools. The Transporter (or devices like it) will replace the sources of yesteryear in the stereo: phono, tape deck, CD player. Its simpler. Yes, in the 80s, I had phono, tape deck, tuner, CD player, Stereo TV tuner and other stuff in a huge rack. Now I have a Transporter sitting on top of an integrated amp, nothing else. The music quality, like any disruptive technology, is a side effect of the primary market metrics. Except that music quality was never much of a mass market, except for a short while in the early 70s. "Hi Fi" was a hobby in the 50s. Stereo in the 60s meant huge cabinet furniture, most of which had very low fidelity. Until the KLH and AR "bookshelf" speakers, to get vague quality mean a giant Bozak unit. And compared to modern speakers the classic AR-3A was not very high fidelity. The "all amps sound alike" theory of the late 70s, combined with disco, really put a hurt to the popularity of stereo, it was nearly dead until the "high end" fringe started, which didn't gain steam until the 90s. The primary mass market today is iTunes, which are generally marginal quality recordings of pop drivel. The majority of music is listened to either in the car (which is a terrible place to listen to audiophile music) or with crappy earbuds connected to an iPod. I just don't see a mass market for quality recordings of quality performances. For example, the MTBF increase in 3.5 inch drives is a total side effect of the disruptive replacement of 8" platter drives of the mainframe days (and took a number of years to get - initially 5.25" drives were less reliable). I'm not sure about this analysis. I remember the 3.5 inch drives as bing lots cheaper, which drove down their prices. One of the major push today, away from the 3.5 inch drives and towards smaller sizes is that smaller physical media is easier to control. Things like size of the platters in response to thermal conditions change less, just because there is less metal to grow. Besides, rotating memory is gonna die soon, replaced by flash and other solid state memory. At least for the smaller than terabyte sizes. I know this is true, because flash has been ready to replace rotating drives for 15 years. Just that the break even point keeps moving. :-) Pat -- Pat http://www.pfarrell.com/music/slimserver/slimsoftware.html ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
[SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Re: Suggestion: New mid-market player
Pat, I agree with your points - you highlighted many of the costs that impact margin. Allocation of cost (how much of department X goes to what product) is some of the toughest business discussions to have. Like you I have a Transporter and two Squeezeboxes and actively use Softsqueeze. That is from a standing start 3 months ago - I had never even heard of SD until I bought an Infrant ReadyNAS for backup and saw slimserver in it. I had been working professionally on packet audio in the form of VoIP but had not really been serious about applying it to my CDs. But let me ask you something: where did you buy your Tp and SBs? At a high end audio store? I purchased mine through a Canadian computer store web page, shoprbc.com AFTER I tried the Softsqueeze/ReadyNAS combo out. Want volume? That's the way to get it. The SB will be the mass market approach. I have been showing some friends how to use SBs to avoid speaker cabling their new house build. One SB per room without laying cables! At 300 per room, its cheaper than cable pulls if the walls are up! The Transporter (or devices like it) will replace the sources of yesteryear in the stereo: phono, tape deck, CD player. Its simpler. And what is driving this? In my opinion it is on demand music available in any room I have speakers (which in my house is 4). The music quality, like any disruptive technology, is a side effect of the primary market metrics. For example, the MTBF increase in 3.5 inch drives is a total side effect of the disruptive replacement of 8" platter drives of the mainframe days (and took a number of years to get - initially 5.25" drives were less reliable). So nothing is for sure. But my spider sense is tingling :-) The stars appear to be aligning. -- Eric Carroll Eric Carroll's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=9293 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=31935 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Re: Suggestion: New mid-market player
Eric Carroll wrote: FatElvis2000;173898 Wrote: Can't imagine much money is being made here, if even helping Slim break even. The price of many of the components, such as many of the DACs are available on the Internet. Check out some of the volume pricing - the cost of DACs is not as high as you seem to think. I'm sure that Eric knows that the bill of material (BOM) cost of all mass market products is only a tiny fraction of the market price. For audiophile products, the calculations are quite different, because the volumes are so small. Except for parts of Harmon International, nearly all the audiophile manufacturers are private, so real volume, revenue, and other numbers are not available. The price of any product is the sum of BOM cost, engineering cost to design, marketing cost, returns, support, marketing, etc. Most audiophile manufacturers have tiny volume, typically only a million dollars a year or so of revenue, which is not a lot of units when they are $5000 (retail) amps or CD transports. Since the wholesale distributor, dealers, etc. all take a piece out of the retail price, the manufacturer may only be selling several hundred units a year. It is really, really hard to pay for the NRE (Non-recurring expenses) when you spread them over a couple hundred units. I have bought three Squeezeboxes and a Transporter, and there are hundreds if not thousands of active folks on the Slim forums. So we know that SlimDevices has a lot larger number of units than Classé Audio or Sonus Faber (to pick two random companies whose products I can look at while I type this). Its all about volume, Intel sells some amazing technology for $200 a chip, but they sell millions and millions. All I know is that for me, the price of the SqueezeBoxes was proven to be worth it, and that let me make the leap to the Transporter. We could be looking at serious disruptive technology. It is, but it may not be important, as 99% of the market doesn't care about audio quality. Its not clear to me that the market even cares about TV and movie image quality. -- Pat Farrell http://www.pfarrell.com/ ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
[SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Re: Suggestion: New mid-market player
FatElvis2000;173898 Wrote: > Can't imagine much money is being made here, if even helping Slim break > even. The price of many of the components, such as many of the DACs are available on the Internet. Check out some of the volume pricing - the cost of DACs is not as high as you seem to think. I think there is lots of margin in the Tp. And I bought it anyway. -- Eric Carroll Eric Carroll's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=9293 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=31935 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
[SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Re: Suggestion: New mid-market player
jmourik;173932 Wrote: > Bring it on! I'd be so happy if they did that, so I can stop worrying > about getting an outboard dac for my sb2! It'll be interesting to see which DAC they go with for any new player. Will they stick with Burr-Brown/TI? Or will they move on to a lower-grade AKM than that used in the Transporter? I get the impression they did this with the Transporter only because the AK4396 was so new and had such impressive specs. Also I would think that they may double the flash. Apparently things are getting quite tight in the firmware now. Should be interesting. -- Mark Lanctot "It's like, you know, a New Age religion, but with better treble response." - Jon Heal Mark Lanctot's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=2071 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=31935 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
[SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Re: Suggestion: New mid-market player
FatElvis2000;173898 Wrote: > "Logitech" doesn't make high-end stereo componentry! I suggest you check out Christensen's book The Innovator's Dilemma if you have not done so. If you have, well... The packetization of audio is a classic disruptive technology. It follows directly on the disruption of the entire telecommunications and data communciations marketplaces that has taken place over the last 25 years due to packetization, CPU and DSP processing power. I think if you look around you will be amazed by the number of companies that used to be the dominate players in these marketplace that are no longer, specifically due to disruptive technologies driven on packetization, CPU and DSP power. It is absolutely amazing how many technical problems that used to cost big dollars in the technical domain of synchronized clocking and bit stream processing can be solved very cheaply at high quality with playout buffers, packets on networks, disk drives and DSPs. SB3 and Tp are excellent examples of this shift. Logitech a player in high end audio? Well, why not? How is that any sillier than Slim Devices being a player in high end audio(Slim who?) Logitech already plays in computer audio (somewhat). They appear to be targeting the Home Theater market a bit (remotes). They understand the consumer market and consumer electronics channels. They understand audio enough to pay to acquire a streaming media division. The Transporter is the distruptive displacement of the highest end of the audiophile market (the 10K+ CD player & preamp section all for only 2k. And the Transporter will inevitably drop in price and do more) Amazing what some packetization and DSP technology can do. The fact that audiophiles may take a dim view of something like packet audio shows the point exactly: if you compare the Transporter against a Mark Levinson DAC and top end CD Transport that looks like a small alien spaceship landed in your living room, maybe it looks "cheap" and unable to compete. But, those are the "old world" metrics! When you look at the Tp as the living room extension of your portable music player, but way better, well, its a whole other set of marketplace metrics coming to the table, isn't it? Who will pay 20-40K for audio equipment when your portable music player is a couple of hundred and sounds just as good or maybe almost as good. But a lot of people will pay 1-2K for top of the line audio on the margin of existing portable audio player infrastructure. In my opinion, the Transporter is just as good as the top end of the current audiophile market. There is definately some value based pricing going on right now - I am getting probably 20-50K worth of today's gear for 2K. Of course, tomorrow that price will get driven down, or the feature/function will get driven up. If Logitech doesn't kill the golden egg of Slim Devices in the integration effort, and they have some kind of product plan (its not mice and keyboards now), they might just do something here. Don't underestimate this issue though - I have personally participated operationally in over 15 mergers or aquisitions. I know how easy it is to mess it up and be left with nothing. All just my opinion of course. Only time will tell. Let's agree to come back in 2.5 & 5 years and reopen this discussion :-) -- Eric Carroll Eric Carroll's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=9293 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=31935 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
[SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Re: Suggestion: New mid-market player
Mark Lanctot;173901 Wrote: > ...a high-end testbed that pioneers certain concepts which eventually > trickle down to the mainstream products. Slim Devices have in fact > specifically said so. And they're not much for saying things about > upcoming products, so this speaks volumes.Bring it on! I'd be so happy if > they did that, so I can stop worrying about getting an outboard dac for my sb2! -- jmourik jmourik's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=7123 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=31935 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
[SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Re: Suggestion: New mid-market player
FatElvis2000;173898 Wrote: > "Logitech" doesn't make high-end stereo componentry! > Black and Decker doesn't make high end drills! Dewalt does! Dewalt is owned by B&D!!! -- Skunk Skunk's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=2685 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=31935 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
[SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Re: Suggestion: New mid-market player
FatElvis2000;173898 Wrote: > Can't imagine much money is being made here, if even helping Slim break > even. Really? They can hardly meet demand. It's far exceeded their expectations. Also you can bet there's a lot more margin in the Transporter than the Squeezebox. 'Course you don't get the volume... But lots of companies do this - a high-end testbed that pioneers certain concepts which eventually trickle down to the mainstream products. Slim Devices have in fact specifically said so. -- Mark Lanctot "It's like, you know, a New Age religion, but with better treble response." - Jon Heal Mark Lanctot's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=2071 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=31935 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
[SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Re: Suggestion: New mid-market player
USAudio;172714 Wrote: > Just finished reading a review of the Transporter in Stereophile > magazine and the article reinforced something I (and I'm sure many > others) have been thinking about for sometime. Slim Devices needs a > player that fits somewhere between the SqueezeBox and Transporter. The Transporter is pure masturbation on the part of Slim Devices, and a completely unnecessary product. "Logitech" doesn't make high-end stereo componentry! I could see a $599 "Audiophile Grade" product with upgraded DACs (e.g., Dual Wolfsons) and a "class A" output stage. Something to compete with the Arcam CD73, Rotel RCD-1072, Rega Apollo, and other "entry level" audiophile CD players. This was Slim's chance to impact music listening behaviors in a fairly significant way, but overshot with the Transporter. Can't imagine much money is being made here, if even helping Slim break even. -- FatElvis2000 FatElvis2000's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=6725 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=31935 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
[SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Re: Suggestion: New mid-market player
RaK;173193 Wrote: > I was wondering why nobody suggests a transporter sized box including > some (>100GB) disk space and a running slimserver. Ideally including a > SB3 functionality. > There is definately a market for this kind of device - look at the Olive line. It includes ripping, storage, server and DAC function all in one package. It would be an obvious place for SD to go in terms of expanding the product line. Personally speaking I bought a Transporter because it has NO SPINNING DISKS, great features and top of the line DAC & audio stage. My disks are in an Infrant Readynas NV+ in a completely seperate room. Why? Well let me just say this. All my computers are Koolance water cooled cases to ensure I have no scramjet-loud fans, either. I have a real bug about computer noise. Last thing I want is a classically engineered PC in the middle of my audio listening experience. I play music on my desktop PC when I work too, but its background stuff at that point. There is no way my Logitech computer speakers compare to my Real Speakers(tm)! It all depends on your listening habits and requirements. -- Eric Carroll Eric Carroll's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=9293 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=31935 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
[SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Re: Suggestion: New mid-market player
adamslim;173716 Wrote: > The problem with this idea is a commercial one - were Slim to bring out > a product that sounds exactly the same as the Transporter, but is less > than half the price, TP owners will not be particularly impressed Unfortunately for SD, they don't have a monopoly. If they don't bring out a product the public wants, someone else will! -- USAudio SB3 -> PS Audio Trio C-100 -> Revel Concerta F12's USAudio's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=8580 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=31935 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
[SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Re: Suggestion: New mid-market player
adamslim;173716 Wrote: > The problem with this idea is a commercial one - were Slim to bring out > a product that sounds exactly the same as the Transporter, but is less > than half the price, TP owners will not be particularly impressed. > > I actually agree in that your requirements as listed are the same as > mine - I don't want two screens, a knob, balanced outputs or digital > inputs, and I do want a simple case and TP sound. However, I think it > would be an inappropriate decision for SD to produce the product that I > actually want! It would meet a price point using a method typical of the industry - removing features. Even if it meant the actual cost of manufacturing were only a couple hundred less than the Transporter, the new product would appeal to a bit different (and wider) audience. Removing all the digital inputs would mean that the mid-priced unit could not be used as a DAC. Removing the niceties of the knob, buttons, and 2nd screen would eliminate the device from consideration from customers who value those items. Removing the balanced outputs would remove the appeal for many others. So the Transporter would still have a large audience. One more item I might add is to make the case size something less full rack-width. This is something I and many others don't care a wit about, but for some customers it would tip them to purchase the Transporter just for the form factor. >From a features and aesthetics standpoint, the new device would resemble a Squeezebox much more than it would a Transporter. -- JJZolx Jim JJZolx's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=10 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=31935 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
[SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Re: Suggestion: New mid-market player
JJZolx;173203 Wrote: > - Transporter quality electronics and internal power supply > > - Single display > > - No knob or other buttons > > - (possibly) Lose the balanced outputs and perhaps some or all of the > digital input connections > > - Simple, but nicely finished all steel case with aluminum front bezel > > That should easily be doable for $800 to $1000. The problem with this idea is a commercial one - were Slim to bring out a product that sounds exactly the same as the Transporter, but is less than half the price, TP owners will not be particularly impressed. I actually agree in that your requirements as listed are the same as mine - I don't want two screens, a knob, balanced outputs or digital inputs, and I do want a simple case and TP sound. However, I think it would be an inappropriate decision for SD to produce the product that I actually want! Maybe I'm just a born pessimist ;) Adam -- adamslim SB3 into Derek Shek d2, Shanling CDT-100, Rotel RT-990BX, Esoteric Audio Research 859, Living Voice Auditorium IIs, Nordost cables http://www.last.fm/user/AdamSlim/ adamslim's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=7355 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=31935 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
[SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Re: Suggestion: New mid-market player
JJZolx;173203 Wrote: > Without trying to design the next generation SB4 (which I'd expect would > be similar or lower in price compared to the SB3) and without actually > _adding_ to the features (which is the wrong direction if you wish to > lower the Transporter cost) my suggestion would be... I 100% agree JJZolx, and, except for the improved remote, that's what I was trying to suggest with my original post as well! =) -- USAudio SB3 -> PS Audio Trio C-100 -> Revel Concerta F12's USAudio's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=8580 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=31935 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
[SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Re: Suggestion: New mid-market player
Without trying to design the next generation SB4 (which I'd expect would be similar or lower in price compared to the SB3) and without actually _adding_ to the features (which is the wrong direction if you wish to lower the Transporter cost) my suggestion would be: - Transporter quality electronics and internal power supply - Single display - No knob or other buttons - (possibly) Lose the balanced outputs and perhaps some or all of the digital input connections - Simple, but nicely finished all steel case with aluminum front bezel That should easily be doable for $800 to $1000. My feeling is that the Transporter's $2000 price tag was somewhat arbitrary, although I realize that it pays for the R&D and production startup costs that can be quite high for a small company. This is true of pricing on most boutique audio gear. -- JJZolx Jim JJZolx's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=10 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=31935 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
[SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Re: Suggestion: New mid-market player
Guys I am following this thread for quite a while now and I was wondering why nobody suggests a transporter sized box including some (>100GB) disk space and a running slimserver. Ideally including a SB3 functionality. Dont know if this is an easy task because of computer/harddisks interfearing some of the audio components. If so, have a second NAS only box in a TP design. >From my point of view SB is an extremly sexy and comfortable device. The neccessity of setting up an PC running 24/7 is a killing argument for most of the customers out there. Guys keep in mind we (the reader in this forum) are somewhat cracy and more related to such a technology. Slimdevices could sell 10x more devices and could come out of a niche market if they had a solution for technology noobs. A good range of products would be - Transporter ($2k) for audiophiles (this is still a niche market!) - SB3 ($300) for mainstream - NAS Server in TP Design with installed Slimserver ($500) - NAS Server in TP Design inkl. a SB3 ($800) (much better than NAS only!) no second display (this is luxary) no extremly highend DAC the standard remote one power button only anything else that reduces cost - A UMPC/Nokia800 look alike remote ($350) running out of the box with SS6.5.1 or the above introduced TP NAS @Slimdevics Guys: Take this as free-of-charge consultancy ;). I hope it is appretiated. KR -- RaK RaK's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=7855 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=31935 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Re: Suggestion: New mid-market player
On the other hand, I do not currently have an external DAC. Count me in the camp of people who intend to purchase a Transporter someday because of the quality internal DAC, so I don't have to put money towards that. On 1/22/07, tonyptony < [EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: The Smokester;172817 Wrote: > I already had an expensive DAC when I purchased the Squeezebox v3. It > sounds great. Now I have discovered "Studio Master" downloads which are > sampled at 24 bit, 88 kHz and beyond. The SB only samples up to 48 kHz > so I end up downsampling. (Still sounds even better.) > > To get sampling to 96 kHz I would need to buy a TP when all I really > need is the display and digital out with ultra-low jitter. Don't care > about the analog side at all since I am supplying my own DAC. > > Don't know if I'm the only one who needs just this or is there a real > market for such a device? Smokester, I'm with you. I already have a multi-megabuck DAC. If Slimdevices could design the absolute best digital server they could (including the PS!) that would be a perfect fit. I suspect also it would be the same for many audiophiles. -- tonyptony tonyptony's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=3397 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=31935 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
[SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Re: Suggestion: New mid-market player
The Smokester;172817 Wrote: > I already had an expensive DAC when I purchased the Squeezebox v3. It > sounds great. Now I have discovered "Studio Master" downloads which are > sampled at 24 bit, 88 kHz and beyond. The SB only samples up to 48 kHz > so I end up downsampling. (Still sounds even better.) > > To get sampling to 96 kHz I would need to buy a TP when all I really > need is the display and digital out with ultra-low jitter. Don't care > about the analog side at all since I am supplying my own DAC. > > Don't know if I'm the only one who needs just this or is there a real > market for such a device? Smokester, I'm with you. I already have a multi-megabuck DAC. If Slimdevices could design the absolute best digital server they could (including the PS!) that would be a perfect fit. I suspect also it would be the same for many audiophiles. -- tonyptony tonyptony's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=3397 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=31935 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
[SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Re: Suggestion: New mid-market player
One possibility is to make a "boombox" or headset with wifi built in, allowing you to access squeezenetwork, internet radio, pandora, your own networked music, etc. As streaming music services and public wifi continue to spread, I think such a thing could become very, very popular - it would be the next step in the evolution from portable radio to walkman to discman. -- opaqueice opaqueice's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=4234 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=31935 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
[SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Re: Suggestion: New mid-market player
)p(;172835 Wrote: > My suggestion, add 2 little high quality class-d amps inside the > transporter case. Icepower based modules and power supplies can be > really small and still sound very very good. Result one very great > integrated network player amp...all what one needs in one nice package. Sounds like what you're aiming at is a minimalist setup with just a network player and pair of speakers. In that case, I'd have thought the correct approach is to use powered speakers, which will have amps appropriate to their design. Building amps into the player will always be a compromise, because they will be called upon to drive a variety of different speakers. -- cliveb Performers -> dozens of mixers and effects -> clipped/hypercompressed mastering -> you think a few extra ps of jitter matters? cliveb's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=348 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=31935 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
[SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Re: Suggestion: New mid-market player
I'm using the Harmony 880 remote, and lovin' it, so the remote part doesn't do it for me. I do like the rest :-) I'd love to have a sb2/3-ish device, qua size, with the dac part of the TP. In my dreams that's the SB4. Then I won't have to buy that dac... jan -- jmourik jmourik's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=7123 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=31935 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
[SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Re: Suggestion: New mid-market player
I already had an expensive DAC when I purchased the Squeezebox v3. It sounds great. Now I have discovered "Studio Master" downloads which are sampled at 24 bit, 88 kHz and beyond. The SB only samples up to 48 kHz so I end up downsampling. (Still sounds even better.) To get sampling to 96 kHz I would need to buy a TP when all I really need is the display and digital out with ultra-low jitter. Don't care about the analog side at all since I am supplying my own DAC. Don't know if I'm the only one who needs just this or is there a real market for such a device? -- The Smokester The Smokester's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=9198 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=31935 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
[SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Re: Suggestion: New mid-market player
I might be out to lunch on this, but I thought the vfds in the squeezebox and transporter were _really_ expensive. Maybe getting rid of the two of them and adding slimserver support to one of the logitech remotes could get the thing in at less than the transporter. -- totoro squeezebox 3 -> mccormack dna .5 -> audio physic tempo 4 totoro's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=5935 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=31935 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
[SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Re: Suggestion: New mid-market player
You pay peanuts, you get monkeys! -- 95bcwh 95bcwh's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=4358 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=31935 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
[SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Re: Suggestion: New mid-market player
The Sonos 80 bundle will give you your LCD remote and wireless connections for under a grand, and there are lots of great DACs both new and used out there for under $500. USAudio;172714 Wrote: > J > Summary: > - Simple but still high-end looking main player unit with power > indicator and angled recharging slot on top. > - High-end internal DAC and components offering Transporter-like > sound. > - Rechargable LCD wireless controller. > - Priced $1000 - $1200 > > I don't want much, eh!? ;-) -- jhm731 jhm731's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=7685 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=31935 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Re: Suggestion: New mid-market player
I've hung around the audiophiles list long enough to know that the "quality DAC" alone could easily cost $1000. I agree that the remote control idea of yours is good, but I think the $1000-$1200 target is unlikely. On 1/21/07, USAudio <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: adamslim;172740 Wrote: > So you want TP sound quality with a better remote. Sir, I feel you are > setting yourself up for disappointment! I don't see why, I think you greatly oversimplified by posting. I'd even settle for sound quality similar to SB3+quality external DAC combo, but with the features I mentioned in my original posting. -- USAudio SB3 -> PS Audio Trio C-100 -> Revel Concerta F12's USAudio's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=8580 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=31935 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
[SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Re: Suggestion: New mid-market player
adamslim;172740 Wrote: > So you want TP sound quality with a better remote. Sir, I feel you are > setting yourself up for disappointment! I don't see why, I think you greatly oversimplified by posting. I'd even settle for sound quality similar to SB3+quality external DAC combo, but with the features I mentioned in my original posting. -- USAudio SB3 -> PS Audio Trio C-100 -> Revel Concerta F12's USAudio's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=8580 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=31935 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
[SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Re: Suggestion: New mid-market player
USAudio;172714 Wrote: > Summary: > - Simple but still high-end looking main player unit with power > indicator and angled recharging slot on top. > - High-end internal DAC and components offering Transporter-like > sound. > - Rechargable LCD wireless controller. > - Priced $1000 - $1200 So you want TP sound quality with a better remote. Sir, I feel you are setting yourself up for disappointment! I agree with the remote issue, although I think it should be a separate device, as it will work with TP or SB. A Nokia 800-like device would be ideal - it needs wi-fi, touch-screen and would probably dock to recharge. Hmm, maybe I should just buy a N800... Adam -- adamslim SB3 into Derek Shek d2, Shanling CDT-100, Rotel RT-990BX, Esoteric Audio Research 859, Living Voice Auditorium IIs, Nordost cables http://www.last.fm/user/AdamSlim/ adamslim's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=7355 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=31935 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
[SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Re: Suggestion: New mid-market player
I like the idea of having the display on the remote instead of on the player. The remote is always in your hand or nearby when the system is playing, while the SB may be across a large room where the display isn't visible. Putting a display in the remote means it has to have wifi, and unless you go with OLED or eink, needs a backlight and that means power. That means it will need to be rechargeable. I think a separate charger stand for it that sits on a table in easy reach is a better idea than to have a socket in the player which need not be located where it is visible, since it no longer has a display. TD -- tyler_durden tyler_durden's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=2701 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=31935 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
