Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Transporter EAC vs. CD audio... Throwing Down the Gauntlet !!!
The transformer damping almost always improves things. As to still hearing differences in power cords even with the transformers damped, as noted earlier there are quite a few other mechanisms, if any of those is significant there still might be audible differences. At this point in time I can still hear some differences in cords (again not huge), it may be that my system is getting better and I can now hear things that were getting masked before, I don't know. There HAS been a LOT of changes to my system since the initial work on this. John S. -- JohnSwenson JohnSwenson's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=5974 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=88364 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Transporter EAC vs. CD audio... Throwing Down the Gauntlet !!!
John I am not trying to pick holes here, but in the link I copied in my last post you said that you couldn't hear differences between cables after damping the transformer and now you say that you can. That seems to me to be a change of view. Be that as it may, do you still consider that damping the transformer removes some/most/nearly all of the differences between cables? -- adamdea adamdea's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=37603 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=88364 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Transporter EAC vs. CD audio... Throwing Down the Gauntlet !!!
Yes I have posted on this before, and no my views have not changed. The power cord is part of the connection between boxes, a conduit for picking up external noise, radiating noise and part of the electrical resonances formed with the components and wiring in the walls etc. All of these aspects can be modified by the materials and construction of the power cord. In any situation there are multiple ways in which a power cord is interacting with the system (see above list), these interactions are going to be different in every system. Well I suppose if you had a system that was in an environment that had NO RF fields at all in the area, and EVERY component plugged into the house injected NO noise into the system and EVERY component plugged in had NO resonances in it's power circuit from DC to hundreds of MHz, then maybe you could say that a power cord had no theoretical way of affecting a system. The probability of that happening is EXTREMELY low. So I'm going to say that in any real world situation the differeing electrical properties of different power cords will have some affect on the system. This affect is going to be different for every system so its almost impossible to predict what particular type of cord is going to be best with any particular component and system. In addition you frequently wind up with a situation where something that cuts down on lower frequency interactions between components (say 100KHZ) may increase the resonances at higher frequencies (say 10MHz). As to the response about the wiring in the wall, power cords can be very important with that. The wiring in the wall is an unterminated transmission line at RF frequencies, the power cord plugged into a componant can play a MAJOR role in how that RF gets coupled into a component. This one is actually quite easy to see. Put a spectrum analyser (with appropriate high pass filter so the 60HZ doesn't go directly into the input) across the primary terminls of the power transformer. You will see LOTS of stuff there. Try different power cords, those patterns will change significantly. OK, so what about using a power filter? You still will have a fair amount of stuff. It WILL be less in some areas, but no design is completely effective and for many of them it actually gets worse in some areas. The power cord will STILL make a difference. Certainly not the SAME difference. This is just one aspect of how power cords intereact with a system, there are many more. And of course every system is going to be affected by these changes in deifferent ways. In one system these RF differences may make a significant difference in sound and in others it may not. Same with other interactions a power cord can have. Please note: I am NOT advocating $1000 power cords! I AM saying that power cords CAN make a difference, and these differences can be heard with inexpensive cords, it does NOT take super expensive ones to make a difference. So if you are into trying to get the best sound possible out of your system its probably worthwhile to try some different cords in different locations in your system and see if it makes any difference, it might make no difference, or you might be pleasantly surprised by the improvement. Because of the complex intereactions there is no way to tell without actually doing it. I think the best way to do this is NOT to buy "audiophile" cables, but go to a computer store, a hardware store, a department store etc and buy 5 inexpensive power cords from different manufacturers, the probability of them all being exactly the same is low. If you do this you won't run into the "the expensive cord has to sound better" phenomanum because they are all cheap! Try them in different configurations and see if you notice any difference. In my system I CAN hear differences in power cords, even with the transformers damped. Its not huge, no night and day difference, but its there and has been worth while, the system sounds a little bit better and it cost about $100 to do the testing. For me it was worth it. John S. -- JohnSwenson JohnSwenson's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=5974 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=88364 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Transporter EAC vs. CD audio... Throwing Down the Gauntlet !!!
Wombat;640919 Wrote: > Something Off Topic. > I see that some reviewers and well regarded Hi-Fi authors from the past > these days still hear things they write about and describe fine > differences. These people must be in the end of their 50s now or even > older. > I have the feeling they fool themself often enough cause their "best > ear days" are long gone. Some may have very good measuring equipment > and measure things that no human may ever hear but when measured once > they really believe to hear it. > Especialy for these people it is time for real abx testing for an eye > opener. hear, hear, he said wistfully. At age 65 my high end has rolled off to 12.5 khz. -- MichaelJ MichaelJ's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=43215 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=88364 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Transporter EAC vs. CD audio... Throwing Down the Gauntlet !!!
Something Off Topic. I see that some reviewers and well regarded Hi-Fi authors from the past these days still hear things they write about and describe fine differences. These people must be in the end of their 50s now or even older. I have the feeling they fool themself often enough cause their "best ear days" are long gone. Some may have very good measuring equipment and measure things that no human may ever hear but when measured once they really believe to hear it. Especialy for these people it is time for real abx testing for an eye opener. -- Wombat Transporter (modded) -> RG142 -> Avantgarde Acoustic based 500VA monoblocks -> Sommer SPK240 -> self-made speakers Wombat's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=4113 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=88364 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Transporter EAC vs. CD audio... Throwing Down the Gauntlet !!!
JohnSwenson;640735 Wrote: > My take on the power cord issue is that power cords CAN make a > difference in sound, some times fairly significant changes, but it > doesn't take thousands of dollars to do it well. People selling $1000 > cords may very well have a cord which sounds better than many other > cords, but thats probably NOT caused by whatever cost the $1000 but by > some coincidental factor. > > The issue here is that what makes a cord sound good is not well > understood, there are many theories out there as to what is happening. > What usually happens is that someone came up with a hypothesis along > the lines of "super high purity metal might be a factor", so they build > a cord with very high purity metal, and low and behold it DOES sound > better. Well if that sounded better then ultra super high purity metal > should sound even better, right? But in reality the improvement in the > original had nothing to do with the metal but was caused by the > particular insullation used which was required to maintain the metal > purity during manufacfture. If that same insullation was used with > lesser purity metal you would get similar sound improvements for a lot > less money, but nobody makes such a combination because the slightly > more expensive insullation is only used with the high purity metal, > thus nobody actually tries that insullation with cheaper metal. > > This sort of thing is rampant in the industry. Someone comes up with > something that does improve sound, then goes crazy and spends a huge > amount of money getting that one paramter to its absolute pinicale of > perfection, not realizing that the original improvement was caused by > something else! > > Do I buy $1000 cords? No way, I build my own cords. The most expensive > one I have made is about $35. My power cords do sound different from > each other, I'm exploring different geometries, insullations, shielding > etc using relatively inexpensive materials. And its not just listening, > I can actually measure differences caused by the different cords. One > interesting finding from this is that different gear sounds better > with different cords, that REALLY complicates things! > > There is still a lot more work to come up with decent correlations as > to what cord type sounds best with what equipment. Even if I did have > good correlations it wouldn't do any good unless you make your own, > since most manufacturers won't aqctually tell you how their cords are > made and exactly what materials are used. > > The best advice I can give right now given the state of the market > place is to buy several different inexpensive cords from different > manufacturers and try them out on different equipment in your system. > If it doesn't make any difference you are not out a lot of money. On > the other hand you just might find a combination that DOES improve the > sound of your system. > > John S. John unless I have senile dementia (possible) I remember you posting some time ago on this forum that mains cables sounded different because of transformer resonance but that once you damped the transformer (by a relatively easy method) different mains cables thereafter made no difference. Have you changed or view, or is that still the case? -- adamdea adamdea's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=37603 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=88364 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Transporter EAC vs. CD audio... Throwing Down the Gauntlet !!!
As for USB cables sounding different... galvanic isolation is essential. It's not about the cable at all... -- Phil Leigh You want to see the signal path BEFORE it gets onto a CD/vinyl...it ain't what you'd call minimal... Touch(wired/XP) - Audiolense 3.3/2.0+INGUZ DRC - MF M1 DAC - Linn 5103 - full Aktiv 5.1 system (6x LK140's, ESPEK/TRIKAN/KATAN/SEIZMIK 10.5), Pekin Tuner, Townsend Supertweeters, Blue Jeans Belden Digital,Kimber 8TC Speaker & Chord Signature Plus Interconnect cables Stax4070+SRM7/II phones Kitchen Boom, Outdoors: SB Radio, Harmony One remote for everything. Phil Leigh's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=85 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=88364 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Transporter EAC vs. CD audio... Throwing Down the Gauntlet !!!
@JS - as I hope you know I have a lot of respect for your views, John. However, I have conducted a lot of ADM tests on mains cables of varying types - including Nordost - and found NO measurable or audible difference when used on line level devices. I have not tested power amp mains cables in this way. It is possible they may have an effect on power amps. If the 1 metre or so of cable is having any effect it will be as an extra LCR across the reactance of the transformer primary (if there IS a transformer...). This additional LCR MAY filter some noise/harmonics. Personally I use screened mains cables exclusively these days. They are not expensive and if nothing else provide some extra protection against rfi. phil -- Phil Leigh You want to see the signal path BEFORE it gets onto a CD/vinyl...it ain't what you'd call minimal... Touch(wired/XP) - Audiolense 3.3/2.0+INGUZ DRC - MF M1 DAC - Linn 5103 - full Aktiv 5.1 system (6x LK140's, ESPEK/TRIKAN/KATAN/SEIZMIK 10.5), Pekin Tuner, Townsend Supertweeters, Blue Jeans Belden Digital,Kimber 8TC Speaker & Chord Signature Plus Interconnect cables Stax4070+SRM7/II phones Kitchen Boom, Outdoors: SB Radio, Harmony One remote for everything. Phil Leigh's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=85 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=88364 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Transporter EAC vs. CD audio... Throwing Down the Gauntlet !!!
JohnSwenson;640735 Wrote: > My take on the power cord issue is that power cords CAN make a > difference in sound, some times fairly significant changes, but it > doesn't take thousands of dollars to do it well. People selling $1000 > cords may very well have a cord which sounds better than many other > cords, but thats probably NOT caused by whatever cost the $1000 but by > some coincidental factor. > > The issue here is that what makes a cord sound good is not well > understood, there are many theories out there as to what is happening. > What usually happens is that someone came up with a hypothesis along > the lines of "super high purity metal might be a factor", so they build > a cord with very high purity metal, and low and behold it DOES sound > better. Well if that sounded better then ultra super high purity metal > should sound even better, right? But in reality the improvement in the > original had nothing to do with the metal but was caused by the > particular insullation used which was required to maintain the metal > purity during manufacfture. If that same insullation was used with > lesser purity metal you would get similar sound improvements for a lot > less money, but nobody makes such a combination because the slightly > more expensive insullation is only used with the high purity metal, > thus nobody actually tries that insullation with cheaper metal. > > This sort of thing is rampant in the industry. Someone comes up with > something that does improve sound, then goes crazy and spends a huge > amount of money getting that one paramter to its absolute pinicale of > perfection, not realizing that the original improvement was caused by > something else! > > Do I buy $1000 cords? No way, I build my own cords. The most expensive > one I have made is about $35. My power cords do sound different from > each other, I'm exploring different geometries, insullations, shielding > etc using relatively inexpensive materials. And its not just listening, > I can actually measure differences caused by the different cords. One > interesting finding from this is that different gear sounds better > with different cords, that REALLY complicates things! > > There is still a lot more work to come up with decent correlations as > to what cord type sounds best with what equipment. Even if I did have > good correlations it wouldn't do any good unless you make your own, > since most manufacturers won't aqctually tell you how their cords are > made and exactly what materials are used. > > The best advice I can give right now given the state of the market > place is to buy several different inexpensive cords from different > manufacturers and try them out on different equipment in your system. > If it doesn't make any difference you are not out a lot of money. On > the other hand you just might find a combination that DOES improve the > sound of your system. > > John S. Nonsense! A chain is only as strong as its weakest link. What cables do you have behind your wall outlet? And what is after that? (Another place to pollute your power source. :P All sorts of devices pollute power line.) There is no power cord that will deliver clean power from dirty source. You can't fool physics. -- Bytec Bytec's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=17676 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=88364 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Transporter EAC vs. CD audio... Throwing Down the Gauntlet !!!
Phil Leigh;639262 Wrote: > There's NOTHING crazy about having 3,000 CD's. There's plenty crazy > about a $1,000 mains cord... My take on the power cord issue is that power cords CAN make a difference in sound, some times fairly significant changes, but it doesn't take thousands of dollars to do it well. People selling $1000 cords may very well have a cord which sounds better than many other cords, but thats probably NOT caused by whatever cost the $1000 but by some coincidental factor. The issue here is that what makes a cord sound good is not well understood, there are many theories out there as to what is happening. What usually happens is that someone came up with a hypothesis along the lines of "super high purity metal might be a factor", so they build a cord with very high purity metal, and low and behold it DOES sound better. Well if that sounded better then ultra super high purity metal should sound even better, right? But in reality the improvement in the original had nothing to do with the metal but was caused by the particular insullation used which was required to maintain the metal purity during manufacfture. If that same insullation was used with lesser purity metal you would get similar sound improvements for a lot less money, but nobody makes such a combination because the slightly more expensive insullation is only used with the high purity metal, thus nobody actually tries that insullation with cheaper metal. This sort of thing is rampant in the industry. Someone comes up with something that does improve sound, then goes crazy and spends a huge amount of money getting that one paramter to its absolute pinicale of perfection, not realizing that the original improvement was caused by something else! Do I buy $1000 cords? No way, I build my own cords. The most expensive one I have made is about $35. My power cords do sound different from each other, I'm exploring different geometries, insullations, shielding etc using relatively inexpensive materials. And its not just listening, I can actually measure differences caused by the different cords. One interesting finding from this is that different gear sounds better with different cords, that REALLY complicates things! There is still a lot more work to come up with decent correlations as to what cord type sounds best with what equipment. Even if I did have good correlations it wouldn't do any good unless you make your own, since most manufacturers won't aqctually tell you how their cords are made and exactly what materials are used. The best advice I can give right now given the state of the market place is to buy several different inexpensive cords from different manufacturers and try them out on different equipment in your system. If it doesn't make any difference you are not out a lot of money. On the other hand you just might find a combination that DOES improve the sound of your system. John S. -- JohnSwenson JohnSwenson's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=5974 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=88364 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Transporter EAC vs. CD audio... Throwing Down the Gauntlet !!!
TiredLegs;640526 Wrote: > I'd love to see someone do a true ABX test of a $200 USB cable vs a > cheapo $5 one. I'd be glad to do one, just send me the $200 cable! How about a Touch driving a HRT Streamer II, this can sound very good so differences in cables will not be swamped by other issues. Also please precisely define the protocol, every time I've tried to do something like this someone picks apart the protocol, so its best to have an agreed upon protocol in advance. My take on this is that cables DO make a difference, but price has very little to do with it, a $20 cable may outperform a $200, or it may not. The level of these differences is not huge and can be easily swamped by other issues, so its important to use a system where those "other issues" are taken care of first. Of course this depends on what you are trying to determine with the test. Are you trying to determine if its possible to hear a difference between a $5 cable and a $200 AT ALL or or you trying to determine if there is a difference between a $5 and a $200 cable "for most systems". There is a significant difference here. For example the above mentioned HRT streamer II sounds pretty bad hooked up to my laptop, but with the right tweaks on a Touch sounds fantastic. Connected to the laptop different cables make no difference at all, the changes they cause are much lower than the "badness" caused by the laptop. But on the Touch setup the overall quality is good enough that differences caused by cables can be heard. John S. -- JohnSwenson JohnSwenson's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=5974 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=88364 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Transporter EAC vs. CD audio... Throwing Down the Gauntlet !!!
TiredLegs;640526 Wrote: > I'd love to see someone do a true ABX test of a $200 USB cable vs a > cheapo $5 one. Some of the nonsense about why one needs a $200 USB cable has to do with the fact a USB cable carries power as well as the digital signal so that in a cheap USB cable the power current would harm the digital signal. More techno mumbo jumbo to confuse the gullible audiophile. -- ralphpnj Lock, Stock and Two Smoking Barrels -> Snatch -> The Transporter -> Transporter 2 (oops) -> Touch 'Last.fm' (http://www.last.fm/user/jazzfann/) ralphpnj's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=10827 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=88364 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Transporter EAC vs. CD audio... Throwing Down the Gauntlet !!!
ralphpnj;638567 Wrote: > To those of us who live with and use computer based audio on a daily > basis the review was a sham. Mr. Atkinson's comment in post #95 that I > am "a a self-proclaimed computer audio expert" only highlights the poor > level of experience and understanding most of Stereophile's staff have > with regards to computer based audio. For me their biggest mistake is > allowing the myths and nonsense of analog audio to bleed over into > digital audio. $200 USB cables are plain and simply a ripoff but a > major source of ad revenue and so Stereophile has to somehow justify > the usefulness of these cables. I'd love to see someone do a true ABX test of a $200 USB cable vs a cheapo $5 one. -- TiredLegs TiredLegs's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=6201 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=88364 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Transporter EAC vs. CD audio... Throwing Down the Gauntlet !!!
Phil Leigh;639262 Wrote: > There's NOTHING crazy about having 3,000 CD's. There's plenty crazy > about a $1,000 mains cord... There may be nothing crazy about having 3,000 CDs but there is something crazy about having 3,000 CDs in those little plastic jewel cases: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=80369 -- ralphpnj Lock, Stock and Two Smoking Barrels -> Snatch -> The Transporter -> Transporter 2 (oops) -> Touch 'Last.fm' (http://www.last.fm/user/jazzfann/) ralphpnj's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=10827 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=88364 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Transporter EAC vs. CD audio... Throwing Down the Gauntlet !!!
There's NOTHING crazy about having 3,000 CD's. There's plenty crazy about a $1,000 mains cord... -- Phil Leigh You want to see the signal path BEFORE it gets onto a CD/vinyl...it ain't what you'd call minimal... Touch(wired/XP) - Audiolense 3.3/2.0+INGUZ DRC - MF M1 DAC - Linn 5103 - full Aktiv 5.1 system (6x LK140's, ESPEK/TRIKAN/KATAN/SEIZMIK 10.5), Pekin Tuner, Townsend Supertweeters, Blue Jeans Belden Digital,Kimber 8TC Speaker & Chord Signature Plus Interconnect cables Stax4070+SRM7/II phones Kitchen Boom, Outdoors: SB Radio, Harmony One remote for everything. Phil Leigh's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=85 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=88364 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Transporter EAC vs. CD audio... Throwing Down the Gauntlet !!!
No I'm not late to the party at all.. I'm honestly not anywhere near as anal as some of the people I know in the audio world. I'm usually happy playing 320k songs. I watch some of these guys striving for "perfect synergy" in every IC and power cord, and laugh. The only reason I am even getting more info on wav/FLAC files, is to PROVE to these guys, that a music server is the way to go. Some of these guys have 2000-3000 and one guy I know has 5000 CDs An entire wall of CDs. It's crazy to me. But I also know its just like a heroin fiend, the "setup" is half the HIGH. I've been friends with some of these guys for 5-10 years, and I watch them upgrade, swap 50 cables, get the $1000 power cord for their CD players... It all looks like too much WORK. they will never be happy of finished, always chasing that last 2% or (that next high) I see myself being pretty lucky. I can sit back and listen to a 128k song (knowing it sounds like shit) and not really care at all. I listen to the "music" not the image, or placement of each instrument, just the overall music. A cabinet building friend once said to a client that was complaining about the finish on his newly installed wall unit "Stop looking at the hole, stand back and look at the doughnut" I'd guess only 10% of my personal listening music is FLAC quality. I listen to Pandora most of the time now. Also, thanks for the spell-check... I fixed it. -- Toy Maker (2) Squeezebox3's - (1) Transporter2 - 7TB Acer Home Server - iPad - iPeng And more toys than any one person should be aloud to own. Toy Maker's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=7397 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=88364 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Transporter EAC vs. CD audio... Throwing Down the Gauntlet !!!
I didnt want to say it first...there is a nauseating and largely misinformed elitism in the ranks of "audiophilia". If they were to spend any time at all in forums like these they could get an education! -- earwaxer9 System: modified Winsome Labs Mouse, modified Maggie MMG's, Transporter, HSU sub 12, MSB DAC to 500 watt sub slave amp, JPS labs power cords, Silver audio interconnect, Audioquest Granite speaker cable. earwaxer9's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=39527 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=88364 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Transporter EAC vs. CD audio... Throwing Down the Gauntlet !!!
mswlogo;639166 Wrote: > The bitstreams will be identical. The jitter may vary between devices. > The difference will likely be inaudible. Good DACs will make the > difference in jitter non existent. It's been beaten to death years ago. > You're a little late to the party. I don't think that the op is the one who is late to the party but rather some of his self-professed golden eared audiophile friends who are not only late to the party but appear to have never even gotten an invitation. As I've stated earlier in this thread I spend time over on the Stereophile forum (which, btw is slowly dying) and many of those forum members hold the same misguided and outdated beliefs as Toy Maker's golden eared friends. -- ralphpnj Lock, Stock and Two Smoking Barrels -> Snatch -> The Transporter -> Transporter 2 (oops) -> Touch 'Last.fm' (http://www.last.fm/user/jazzfann/) ralphpnj's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=10827 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=88364 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Transporter EAC vs. CD audio... Throwing Down the Gauntlet !!!
Toy Maker;638339 Wrote: > I will also do a little testing/listening of FLAC vs. wav files vs. CDs > in the next week or so. > Again, i don't expect to be able to hear a difference. But I want to > cover all my bases before showing up unprepared, and look stupid and > have anyone tell me "see we told you CDs were better" > > Approximately what % of space is saved using FLAC files over the raw > wav files? For someone with so many toys you seem kinda green :) The bitstreams will be identical. The jitter may vary between devices. The difference will likely be inaudible. Good DACs will make the difference in jitter non existent. It's been beaten to death years ago. You're a little late to the party. If you use a DAC that can use an external word clock with the Transporter the jitter will be effectively 0. I assume some CD players can drive or use input a word clock as well. If you use an external DAC you basically want a single master clock running both the player and the DAC. Rather than use SPDIF and recreate the clock in the DAC. This is the best way to use an external, but you likely won't hear a difference with out it. If it's reasonbly good CD player or Transporter. FYI DBpoweramp, is so much better than EAC. They own accurateRip (assuming you know what that means). You seem a bit hung up on EAC. You get a bunch other nice tools with dbPoweramp as well. I think most folks on this forum are convinced going with Music libraries even if it was slightly worse than CD. The luxury of your whole library at your finger tips is great. Flac rules around here for most folks. WAV was created with Windows 3.1, much better, does error correcting, easier to store meta data and have the space with no loss. It can also support 24/96 (officially) as well as multi channel. You can also setup your server to send WAV to Transporter/SB3 even if your library is in FLAC. Silly, but you can. -- mswlogo Transporter/DuetController > SPDIF > Meridian G68 > DSP6000, DSP5500HC, DSP5000 "It's the speakers and room stupid". 'My Transporter Setup' (http://forums.slimdevices.com/showpost.php?p=350741&postcount=45) 'Hitch Hikers Guide to Meridian' (http://www.meridianunplugged.com) mswlogo's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=9090 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=88364 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Transporter EAC vs. CD audio... Throwing Down the Gauntlet !!!
Toy Maker;638339 Wrote: > I will also do a little testing/listening of FLAC vs. wav files vs. CDs > in the next week or so. > Again, i don't expect to be able to hear a difference. But I want to > cover all my bases before showing up unprepared, and look stupid and > have anyone tell me "see we told you CDs were better" > > Approximately what % of space is saved using FLAC files over the raw > wav files? Since it has been shown many times in many different tests of all kinds that flac and wav sound identical, along with the space savings of around 40% to 50% of flac over wav, the other compelling reason for using flac is the ability to tag the files. Properly and consistently tagged files go a long way in helping to maintain an organized digital music library. Regarding the Bryston BDP-1 thread over on Stereophile forum, I'm still pretty much convinced (although I have absolutely no way to prove it) that the review was assigned to a reviewer with almost no experience in computer based audio which in turn led to a very poorly written and very incomplete review. Any reader with a similar lack of experience with computer audio (and no, experience with iTunes does not count) the review appears to be well written and somewhat informative and Stereophile has managed to keep it's track record of no really negative reviews intact. To those of us who live with and use computer based audio on a daily basis the review was a sham. Mr. Atkinson's comment in post #95 that I am "a a self-proclaimed computer audio expert" only highlights the poor level of experience and understanding most of Stereophile's staff have with regards to computer based audio. For me their biggest mistake is allowing the myths and nonsense of analog audio to bleed over into digital audio. $200 USB cables are plain and simply a ripoff but a major source of ad revenue and so Stereophile has to somehow justify the usefulness of these cables. After the thread had run its course I still that the Bryston BDP-1 is no more than a $200 PC sound card in an $1800 aircraft quality machined aluminum jacket. -- ralphpnj Lock, Stock and Two Smoking Barrels -> Snatch -> The Transporter -> Transporter 2 (oops) -> Touch 'Last.fm' (http://www.last.fm/user/jazzfann/) ralphpnj's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=10827 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=88364 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Transporter EAC vs. CD audio... Throwing Down the Gauntlet !!!
Daverz;638390 Wrote: > Atkinson is the editor of Stereophile. The cossacks work for the Czar. Not sure that being the editor is quite the same as being an absolute ruler, but I get your point. -- adamdea adamdea's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=37603 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=88364 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Transporter EAC vs. CD audio... Throwing Down the Gauntlet !!!
adamdea;638365 Wrote: > > I personally have a soft spot for John Atkinson and his measurement > sections. I fear he must be a lonely voice amongst the mystics and > dipsticks who write for Stereophile (actually I like KR and JM and one > or two others) . Atkinson is the editor of Stereophile. The cossacks work for the Czar. -- Daverz Daverz's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=32335 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=88364 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Transporter EAC vs. CD audio... Throwing Down the Gauntlet !!!
ralphpnj;638249 Wrote: > While I don't question the truth of your statement regarding audiophiles > and streamed vs. CD playback I do wonder how much their belief in the > superiority of CD playback is based on the brand names of the devices > being tested. In other words, would a digital audio file being streamed > via a $20,000 Linn Klimax DS still be inferior to a CD transport? From > an audiophile standpoint a $10,000 CD transport or player HAS to "sound > better" than a $300 SB Touch, even if there is absolutely no difference. > For an example of what I mean check out the Stereophile review of the > Brston BDP-1 where no meaningful comparisons were made with/to any > other digital streaming devices, including the lowly $300 SBT. > > http://forum.stereophile.com/content/bryston-bdp-1-digital-audio-player > > After you've read through that almost useless review check out the > comments posted on the Stereophile forum. On that forum my user name is > "jazzfan". > > http://forum.stereophile.com/content/brystin-bdp-1-review Sorry I am a bit behind here. I noticed from that thread that JA said the following -not really anything to the point about your comments on the Bryston thingie, but very relevant to the OP here "And with respect to all the request for comparisons and sound quality, it is a _digital_ source. The only relevant questions are 1) are the bits it outputs the same as those in the file? .. And is that datastream of sufficiently low jitter not to degrade the output of the DAC to which it is connected?" I personally have a soft spot for John Atkinson and his measurement sections. I fear he must be a lonely voice amongst the mystics and dipsticks who write for Stereophile (actually I like KR and JM and one or two others) . -- adamdea adamdea's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=37603 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=88364 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Transporter EAC vs. CD audio... Throwing Down the Gauntlet !!!
garym;638342 Wrote: > FLAC files are 50% to 60% of the WAV file. So you cut the space needs in > half. Most think you should use the 5 level of "compression" with FLAC > (or lower). This is because there are *some* decoders that struggle > more with decoding the maximum compression (8), and there is not much > real space saving going from 5 to 8. It may be fixed now, but some SB > users reported problems with 24/96 FLAC files when they were encoded at > 8 but no issues when encoded at 5. > > I've never had any issues with 16/44.1 FLAC files encoded at 8, but > I've since started ripping everything at "5" anyhow. All my FLAC files are encoded @level 8. I've done some tests with encoding at all levels to compare encoding/decoding results. Conclusion is that level 8 encoding does save some space, but savings are relatively small (few megabytes). Decoding of level 8 FLAC files may take more CPU power but difference is very small (few %). For hi-res PCM data compression ratio is not so good as it is with 16/44.1 files. That's why I decided to go for level 8 encoding for all my FLAC files because it will save some space and costs are next to nothing. So far haven't had any problems while decoding level 8 FLAC files on my SB Duet or other players. -- Bytec Bytec's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=17676 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=88364 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Transporter EAC vs. CD audio... Throwing Down the Gauntlet !!!
Toy Maker;638339 Wrote: > I will also do a little testing/listening of FLAC vs. wav files vs. CDs > in the next week or so. > Again, i don't expect to be able to hear a difference. But I want to > cover all my bases before showing up unprepared, and look stupid and > have anyone tell me "see we told you CDs were better" > > Approximately what % of space is saved using FLAC files over the raw > wav files? FLAC files are 50% to 60% of the WAV file. So you cut the space needs in half. Most think you should use the 5 level of "compression" with FLAC (or lower). This is because there are *some* decoders that struggle more with decoding the maximum compression (8), and there is not much real space saving going from 5 to 8. It may be fixed now, but some SB users reported problems with 24/96 FLAC files when they were encoded at 8 but no issues when encoded at 5. I've never had any issues with 16/44.1 FLAC files encoded at 8, but I've since started ripping everything at "5" anyhow. -- garym garym's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=17325 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=88364 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Transporter EAC vs. CD audio... Throwing Down the Gauntlet !!!
I will also do a little testing/listening of FLAC vs. wav files vs. CDs in the next week or so. Again, i don't expect to be able to hear a difference. But I want to cover all my bases before showing up unprepared, and look stupid and have anyone tell me " see we told you CDs were better" Approximately what % of space is saved using FLAC files over the raw wav files? -- Toy Maker (2) Squeezebox3's - (1) Transporter2 - 7TB Acer Home Server - iPad - iPeng And more toys than any one person should be aloud to own. Toy Maker's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=7397 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=88364 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Transporter EAC vs. CD audio... Throwing Down the Gauntlet !!!
I don't think i have used it yet But I will play with it this week a little, and see how accurate my filets were. I guess I was going by the accuracy that EAC was giving me for each track... Im not 100% sure if it's already on in EAC or if i have to do something else to utilize it ? Very new to EAC and have only used it twice now. Give me a couple days, and I'll have it down. -- Toy Maker (2) Squeezebox3's - (1) Transporter2 - 7TB Acer Home Server - iPad - iPeng And more toys than any one person should be aloud to own. Toy Maker's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=7397 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=88364 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Transporter EAC vs. CD audio... Throwing Down the Gauntlet !!!
Toy Maker;638138 Wrote: > > I ripped a few of my favorite CDs that I still had stashed away. > Most of the files that EAC made came out 100% bit for bit perfect. > There were however a few files that were 99.9 or 99.7 due to the CDs > being old and scratched pretty badly. Are you actually using AccurateRip, as advised, to make sure you are getting 100% accurate rips ? -- andynormancx Yes, it will. Yes, all of them. Yes, SoftSqueeze as well. What ? I SAID ALL OF THEM ! andynormancx's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=17417 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=88364 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Transporter EAC vs. CD audio... Throwing Down the Gauntlet !!!
Oh my god what a long painful read that was over on Audiophool. I am personal friends with Bob Carver, one of the audio designers that spat in the face of the Audiophools, and made an $800 stock Carver amplifier have an identical audio signature as a set of $20,000 tube amplifiers. They gave him the credit... But then tried to take it away, and even sued him for using the review in his ads. Regardless of what they say, there is no way in hell they will ever give a PAYING customer a nevitive review. I'm glad to see in your ongoing fight to promote some enlightenment of thenSqueezebox line, at least a couple people opened their eyes. This is the exact same thing I am trying to do in September at CarverFest. I've had my SB3 for about 3 years, and in the last year or so, I know I have convinced no less than 5 of our forum members to buy some SD unit. I am the first person that anyone on the forum knows to buy a Transporter. I honestly expect Logitech will make a few thousand dollars due to me. I honestly enjoy teaching some of the "old dogs" new tricks. I'm 37 and am the youngest so called "Audiophile" at the event. There will be about 45 people there that come and go throughout the 10-day event. "Golden-Ear Tom" and I are the event cordinators, and are there the full 10 days. So with a $50,000 system being driven soley by a Transporter, I fully expect to help the digital world (at least a little anyway) out, and try to showcase the true level of quality and convience that can be achieved for less than $1000. >From what I know, the reviewer from Absolute Sound might be coming up to a few days to run a story on the Fest. I am hoping he comes on one of the days that we run the A/B testing. We might be able to get him involved, and to possibly write a little something in their magazine. -- Toy Maker (2) Squeezebox3's - (1) Transporter2 - 7TB Acer Home Server - iPad - iPeng And more toys than any one person should be aloud to own. Toy Maker's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=7397 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=88364 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Transporter EAC vs. CD audio... Throwing Down the Gauntlet !!!
Wombat;638260 Wrote: > Tough writing you did there. Next is to convince Mr. Atkinson or parts > of his team for a real DBT between this unit and the Touch. Next test > will be Hires against properly downsampled... :) > I remember him argueing in a thread on Hydrogenaudio about the evils > and audio compression. If i remember right (very long thread) he did > showcases with Hires files against lossy, sighted and pretty > prejudiced. The answer if he ever DBtested anything he mentions there > is still open afaik. One other thing is a sample he uses for eficiently > showing the advantage of 24bit recordings consists of pure noise in bits > 17-24... If interest i can try to dig that thread out. Noise, yeah Stereophile is pretty familiar with noise since noise is about all one gets when it comes to their coverage of digital audio. In spite of Mr. Atkinson's belief that Stereophile does a super job in their coverage of digital audio I've yet to see even one review of a high resolution download from any of the various vendors (Linn, HDTT, HDTracks, etc.). And now they are busy touting the superiority of 176.4kHz and 192kHz over 88.2kHz and 96kHz! As I said, pure, unfiltered noise. -- ralphpnj Lock, Stock and Two Smoking Barrels -> Snatch -> The Transporter -> Transporter 2 (oops) -> Touch 'Last.fm' (http://www.last.fm/user/jazzfann/) ralphpnj's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=10827 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=88364 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Transporter EAC vs. CD audio... Throwing Down the Gauntlet !!!
ralphpnj;638249 Wrote: > > http://forum.stereophile.com/content/bryston-bdp-1-digital-audio-player > > After you've read through that almost useless review check out the > comments posted on the Stereophile forum. On that forum my user name is > "jazzfan". > > http://forum.stereophile.com/content/brystin-bdp-1-review Tough writing you did there. Next is to convince Mr. Atkinson or parts of his team for a real DBT between this unit and the Touch. Next test will be Hires against properly downsampled... :) I remember him argueing in a thread on Hydrogenaudio about the evils and audio compression. If i remember right (very long thread) he did showcases with Hires files against lossy, sighted and pretty prejudiced. The answer if he ever DBtested anything he mentions there is still open afaik. One other thing is a sample he uses for eficiently showing the advantage of 24bit recordings consists of pure noise in bits 17-24... If interest i can try to dig that thread out. -- Wombat Transporter (modded) -> RG142 -> Avantgarde Acoustic based 500VA monoblocks -> Sommer SPK240 -> self-made speakers Wombat's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=4113 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=88364 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Transporter EAC vs. CD audio... Throwing Down the Gauntlet !!!
adamdea;638174 Wrote: > Don't knock it Rodney. On a certain hifi forum (probably more than one) > there are many people who swear blind that CD players sound better as > a transport into a DAC than any digital streaming device (and get quite > shirty if you question this belief.) > We should celebrate any posting on an audiophile forum of a subjective > result which makes sense While I don't question the truth of your statement regarding audiophiles and streamed vs. CD playback I do wonder how much their belief in the superiority of CD playback is based on the brand names of the devices being tested. In other words, would a digital audio file being streamed via a $20,000 Linn Klimax DS still be inferior to a CD transport? From an audiophile standpoint a $10,000 CD transport or player HAS to "sound better" than a $300 SB Touch, even if there is absolutely no difference. For an example of what I mean check out the Stereophile review of the Brston BDP-1 where no meaningful comparisons were made with/to any other digital streaming devices, including the lowly $300 SBT. http://forum.stereophile.com/content/bryston-bdp-1-digital-audio-player After you've read through that almost useless review check out the comments posted on the Stereophile forum. On that forum my user name is "jazzfan". http://forum.stereophile.com/content/brystin-bdp-1-review -- ralphpnj Lock, Stock and Two Smoking Barrels -> Snatch -> The Transporter -> Transporter 2 (oops) -> Touch 'Last.fm' (http://www.last.fm/user/jazzfann/) ralphpnj's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=10827 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=88364 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Transporter EAC vs. CD audio... Throwing Down the Gauntlet !!!
Don't knock it Rodney. On a certain hifi forum (probably more than one) there are many people who swear blind that CD players sound better as a transport into a DAC than any digital streaming device (and get quite shirty if you question this belief.) We should celebrate any posting on an audiophile forum of a subjective result which makes sense -- adamdea adamdea's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=37603 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=88364 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Transporter EAC vs. CD audio... Throwing Down the Gauntlet !!!
Wow , all that work to come to a conclusion we all knew :) -- Rodney_Gold TP/Z-sys RDP1 digital Pre/Meridian DSP5500's Or TP/DSP5500's Touch/Emotiva X-DA1 dac/bryston 4bst/Canton Ergo 120 dc SB3/Meridian DSP5000's TP/ Emotiva X-da1/Woo Audio Wa2 Headphone amp/Sehneisser Hd800's Touch/KrK Ergo/KrK VXT8 actives + 10S sub "The nicest thing about smacking your head against the wall is...the feeling you get when you stop" Rodney_Gold's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=14618 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=88364 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Transporter EAC vs. CD audio... Throwing Down the Gauntlet !!!
Toy Maker;638138 Wrote: > 1st I will list all equipment used. > > Proceed AVP Preamp > Logitech Transporter SE > Denon 2910 DVD Player > Carver Lightstar Reference Amplifier > Carver AL-III plus Speakers > JL Fathom Subwoofer F-112 > All CarverAudio cables > > Exact Audio Copy (EAC) > Acer 8930 laptop to rip the CDs > Acer Home Server to store the files. > Linksys WiFi router to connect everything. > > > I ripped a few of my favorite CDs that I still had stashed away. > Most of the files that EAC made came out 100% bit for bit perfect. > There were however a few files that were 99.9 or 99.7 due to the CDs > being old and scratched pretty badly. > After moving all the newly ripped files from my laptop over to the > music server, I started listening. > I went right to tracks I knew really well, played a few of them, and > just listened. After about a half hour, I put in the CD, and started to > listen to it. I was listening for small nuances that I knew were in the > songs and could pinpoint with the ripped file with no problem. I was > checking to see if there were being played in the same place in the > room. > > Then we started switching back and forth while playing the same tracks > on both units. > Knowing which source I was listening to, I thought I was hearing slight > differences, and was sure I could tell the 2 apart. > Then I did it blind. I started both players, and had Alex switch them > back and forth. Blindfolded, I had bo clue which was which... I was > basically guessing. > > So, the test seems to be EXTREMELY even if you ask me. I will be > seriously impressed if anyone can tell me which is which. Not right off > the bat, but I'd go as far as letting someone listed to the same tracks > NOT blindfolded at first, and then blindfold them, and see if they can > tell which source is playing. > > After listening myself, I have absolutely no problem what so ever > abandoning CDs forever. > Keep in mind, you HAVE to have an original CD in the beginning to rip > your files from, or get already ripped files from some other source. Glad you sorted that out. Incidentally did you only use WAV files or did you use flac too. if the former I suggest phase 2 being to use FLACs and compare with WAV. I bet you anything that you can't tell the difference. And even if you could, it would then only be necessary to stream the FLACS as PCM. -- adamdea adamdea's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=37603 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=88364 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Transporter EAC vs. CD audio... Throwing Down the Gauntlet !!!
1st I will list all equipment used. Proceed AVP Preamp Logitech Transporter Denon 2910 DVD Player Lightstar Reference Amplifier AL-III plus Speakers JL Fathom Subwoofer F-112 All CarverAudio cables Exact Audio Copy (EAC) Acer 8930 laptop to rip the CDs Acer Home Server to store the files. Linksys WiFi router to connect everything. I ripped a few of my favorite CDs that I still had stashed away. Most of the files that EAC made came out 100% bit for bit perfect. There were however a few files that were 99.9 or 99.7 due to the CDs being old and scratched pretty badly. After moving all the newly ripped files from my laptop over to the music server, I started listening. I went right to tracks I knew really well, played a few of them, and just listened. After about a half hour, I put in the CD, and started to listen to it. I was listening for small nuances that I knew were in the songs and could pinpoint with the ripped file with no problem. I was checking to see if there were being played in the same place in the room. Then we started switching back and forth while playing the same tracks on both units. Knowing which source I was listening to, I thought I was hearing slight differences, and was sure I could tell the 2 apart. Then I did it blind. I started both players, and had Alex switch them back and forth. Blindfolded, I had bo clue which was which... I was basically guessing. So, the test seems to be EXTREMELY even if you ask me. I will be seriously impressed if anyone can tell me which is which. Not right off the bat, but I'd go as far as letting someone listed to the same tracks NOT blindfolded at first, and then blindfold them, and see if they can tell which source is playing. After listening myself, I have absolutely no problem what so ever abandoning CDs forever. Keep in mind, you HAVE to have an original CD in the beginning to rip your files from, or get already ripped files from some other source. -- Toy Maker (2) Squeezebox3's - (1) Transporter2 - 7TB Acer Home Server - iPad - iPeng And more toys than any one person should be aloud to own. Toy Maker's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=7397 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=88364 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Transporter EAC vs. CD audio... Throwing Down the Gauntlet !!!
SuperQ;637843 Wrote: > There is so much confusion around FLAC being "compressed". How about we > say "linear encoded". FLAC is compression like ZIP files are > compressed. If you put a word processor document into a ZIP file and > then unzip it, your document doesn't change. FLAC is the same. The confusion is not about that exactly. Some understand that logic :) The real problem occures in the unit when it is stressed with decompressing flac. Golden Ears hear when the CPU inside the device does hard with decoding flac while wav flows in softly without the decompressing torture. -- Wombat Transporter (modded) -> RG142 -> Avantgarde Acoustic based 500VA monoblocks -> Sommer SPK240 -> self-made speakers Wombat's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=4113 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=88364 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Transporter EAC vs. CD audio... Throwing Down the Gauntlet !!!
Toy Maker;637606 Wrote: > I recently learned that EAC wav files are 100% uncompressed, as perfect > to the original CD track as possible. So FLAC files are out too. > I can make FLAC files using EAC as well... We could A-B test wav vs > FLAC for a 2nd test. But we will have enough on our plate already I > think. > There is so much confusion around FLAC being "compressed". How about we say "linear encoded". FLAC is compression like ZIP files are compressed. If you put a word processor document into a ZIP file and then unzip it, your document doesn't change. FLAC is the same. -- SuperQ SuperQ's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=2139 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=88364 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Transporter EAC vs. CD audio... Throwing Down the Gauntlet !!!
Toy Maker;637738 Wrote: > Ok, so ABX, is probably what we will do. Tom is the main person to try > to tell A from B... I'm sure there will be others that will want to > join in for the test. > > It should be a fun test, and i expect some very positive results on > favor of the Transporter. > > > And that is a KICKASS table !!! As you probably already know, it is critical that the volume of the two sources be identical. Lots of documentation of listeners preferring the louder source, even where it is almost imperceptively louder. -- garym garym's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=17325 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=88364 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Transporter EAC vs. CD audio... Throwing Down the Gauntlet !!!
Ok, so ABX, is probably what we will do. Tom is the main person to try to tell A from B... I'm sure there will be others that will want to join in for the test. It should be a fun test, and i expect some very positive results on favor of the Transpoter. -- Toy Maker (2) Squeezebox3's - (1) Transporter2 - 7TB Acer Home Server - iPad - iPeng And more toys than any one person should be aloud to own. Toy Maker's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=7397 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=88364 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Transporter EAC vs. CD audio... Throwing Down the Gauntlet !!!
Rodney_Gold;637691 Wrote: > I use the same type of table you use as a hifi stand in my upstairs > lounge for my no vent gas fire - Probably puts out less heat than those > amps :) Some happy dogs!! -- garym garym's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=17325 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=88364 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Transporter EAC vs. CD audio... Throwing Down the Gauntlet !!!
I use the same type of table you use as a hifi stand in my upstairs lounge for my no vent gas fire - Probably puts out less heat than those amps :) +---+ |Filename: IMG_1601.jpg | |Download: http://forums.slimdevices.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=12015| +---+ -- Rodney_Gold TP/Z-sys RDP1 digital Pre/Meridian DSP5500's Or TP/DSP5500's Touch/Emotiva X-DA1 dac/bryston 4bst/Canton Ergo 120 dc SB3/Meridian DSP5000's TP/ Emotiva X-da1/Woo Audio Wa2 Headphone amp/Sehneisser Hd800's Touch/KrK Ergo/KrK VXT8 actives + 10S sub "The nicest thing about smacking your head against the wall is...the feeling you get when you stop" Rodney_Gold's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=14618 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=88364 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Transporter EAC vs. CD audio... Throwing Down the Gauntlet !!!
http://www.hydrogenaudio.org/forums/index.php?showtopic=16295 -- garym garym's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=17325 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=88364 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Transporter EAC vs. CD audio... Throwing Down the Gauntlet !!!
Toy Maker;637680 Wrote: > Please explain what a ABx test is?? > > Yes Tom will know when I am switching sources. For an explanation of ABX test, see 'adamslim's post' (http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?p=637567) just a few posts above (#22). Or wikipedia's entry is decent: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ABX_test If you don't do ABX, then are you going to do several trials, randomizing which source is A and which source is B, so that if Tom detects a difference then you can see whether he consistently prefers one over the other (this is another of adamslim's good suggestions above)? Or are you sometimes going to not really switch inputs when you say you're switching, to see if he reports a difference even when it's the same source? -- aubuti aubuti's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=2074 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=88364 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Transporter EAC vs. CD audio... Throwing Down the Gauntlet !!!
Yes most of our equipment is Carver... We have a few nice pieces of equipment. [image: http://carveraudio.com/phpBB3/download/file.php?id=3053] Please explain what a ABx test is?? Yes Tom will know when I am switching sources. Hahahaha... The $300 Sennheisers... Those were the junk ones. I sold a set of HE-90's a few months ago on eBay for $11,400 wish I had a dozen of those laying around !!! -- Toy Maker (2) Squeezebox3's - (1) Transporter2 - 7TB Acer Home Server - iPad - iPeng And more toys than any one person should be aloud to own. Toy Maker's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=7397 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=88364 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Transporter EAC vs. CD audio... Throwing Down the Gauntlet !!!
Toy Maker;637606 Wrote: > Most if not ALL of the 15+ systems that will be at the fest are In the > $10,000+ range... ours fall into the $50,000 range. Not sure what $300 > units you are talking about... I hope that not all of systems are all Carver equipment:) Toy Maker;637606 Wrote: > The perfect outcome in my opinion would be in test-1, that there is no > difference, and we never even go on to test-2 > I hope the outcome IS null, that they DO sound the same. THAT IS THE > TEST. I beg to differ. The best outcome would be where Mr. Golden Ears hears a difference and actually prefers the wav/flac files over the CD. Then truly justice would be served. -- ralphpnj Lock, Stock and Two Smoking Barrels -> Snatch -> The Transporter -> Transporter 2 (oops) -> Touch 'Last.fm' (http://www.last.fm/user/jazzfann/) ralphpnj's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=10827 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=88364 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Transporter EAC vs. CD audio... Throwing Down the Gauntlet !!!
Toy Maker;637606 Wrote: > Most if not ALL of the 15+ systems that will be at the fest are In the > $10,000+ range... ours fall into the $50,000 range. Not sure what $300 > units you are talking about... Probably the $300 Sennheiser headphones you mention in the first post on the Carver forums. Toy Maker;637606 Wrote: > I recently learned that EAC wav files are 100% uncompressed, as perfect > to the original CD track as possible. So FLAC files are out too. I can > make FLAC files using EAC as well... We could A-B test wav vs FLAC for > a 2nd test. But we will have enough on our plate already I think. All wav files are uncompressed, not only "EAC wav files". And the compression in all FLAC files is _lossless_ (that's what the L stands for in FLAC), and therefore as equally perfect to the original CD track as wav. Toy Maker;637606 Wrote: > We came to the conclusion, that there will be (2) parts to the test. > 1) Can you hear a difference between the 2 sources... and Tom will > have to document what cues he hears in each recording, that don't match > up. > 2) Which of the 2 "sounds better, and why" test-2 will only have to be > done if test-1 is NOT NULL. > > The perfect outcome in my opinion would be in test-1, that there is no > difference, and we never even go on to test-2 > I hope the outcome IS null, that they DO sound the same. THAT IS THE > TEST. I don't see how you're going to do the statistics on that test. Part 1 sounds like it would be much better to do it as an ABX test, which would provide more conclusive results than Tom saying "I hear these differences". I understand that Tom won't know which source is A and which source is B, but will he know when you are switching them? -- aubuti aubuti's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=2074 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=88364 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Transporter EAC vs. CD audio... Throwing Down the Gauntlet !!!
Most if not ALL of the 15+ systems that will be at the fest are $10,000+ range... ours fall into the $50,000 range. Not sure what $300 units you are talking about... Well here was the latest update to the test as of last night The test is about the same... a few minor changes, but nothing major.. NO optic cables, as I have learned THEY SUCK. Digital RCA's will be the cable of choice, from each source to the pre-amp, which I will be MAKING myself ;) I recently learned that EAC wav files are 100% uncompressed, as perfect to the original CD track as possible. So FLAC files are out too. I can make FLAC files using EAC as well... We could A-B test wav vs FLAC for a 2nd test. But we will have enough on our plate already I think. The Proceed pre-amp is in, as the pre-amp/DAC that will decode both the CDP and the PC files. Other than that, I don't think much has changed since the start of this thread. Tom and I got off the phone a little while ago. We discussed "What the test should actually be" We came to the conclusion, that there will be (2) parts to the test. 1) Can you hear a difference between the 2 sources... and Tom will have to document what cues he hears in each recording, that don't match up. 2) Which of the 2 "sounds better, and why" test-2 will only have to be done if test-1 is NOT NULL. The equipment will be set up by me, and Tom will not know which source is which. He will only be able to go by source-A and source-B. We will be able to switch back and forth on the fly with the Proceed's remote, and if whatever CDP'r we use has a remote, then we will be able to cue up the PC file and the CD track simultaneously every time, and Tom will never know which source he's really listening to. The perfect outcome in my opinion would be in test-1, that there is no difference, and we never even go on to test-2 I hope the outcome IS null, that they DO sound the same. THAT IS THE TEST. -- Toy Maker (2) Squeezebox3's - (1) Transporter2 - 7TB Acer Home Server - iPad - iPeng And more toys than any one person should be aloud to own. Toy Maker's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=7397 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=88364 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Transporter EAC vs. CD audio... Throwing Down the Gauntlet !!!
It looks like a worthwhile test. Some comments: Would it not be better to use a fairly high end system? Even high end headphones, rather than $300 ones? Secondly, if the ears of the listener are so good that he can note down the differences, why not ask him to say which an unknown player is? This would be an ABX test - you play A and B, to the listener's satisfaction, then ask him which X is. If he can get this right, it would be really strong evidence for a difference. Thirdly, could you randomise the inputs for each test, i.e. in test 1 A is the CD, in test 2 B is, and so on. Then the listener could say which he thinks is the best. If he consistently chooses one, above statistical likelihood, then you have evidence. This is a lot easier to run than ABX. Finally, it's worth getting in someone who knows statistics to help you to decide how many tests to run. -- adamslim MPD on Linux PC, Caiman, DIY Kondo M7 pre, 6B4G SET, Lowther monsters SB3, Charlize 2, DIY open baffle speakers Boom x 2, Radio adamslim's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=7355 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=88364 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Transporter EAC vs. CD audio... Throwing Down the Gauntlet !!!
SuperQ Thanks for the link to AudioDiffMaker !! Please take a look at this, you will defiantly find it interesting http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NAmtwNipZoM This was a CONTEST that Audiophile put to Bob Carver back in the late 80's "The Carver Amplifier Challenge" Full publication here: http://www.carveraudio.com/index.php/history/carver-corp -- Toy Maker (2) Squeezebox3's - (1) Transporter2 - 7TB Acer Home Server - iPad - iPeng And more toys than any one person should be aloud to own. Toy Maker's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=7397 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=88364 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Transporter EAC vs. CD audio... Throwing Down the Gauntlet !!!
Interesting thread...From my limited experience. The KISS principle is one to live by in audio. That picture of all that equipment just sends me into a panic! With what I have now, I'm COMPLETELY challenged with the number of variables I'm dealing with. Of course, I'm an obsessive tweaker. I havent come close to exploring all the variables in my domain as it stands. I will get there some day. To give you an idea. Today, I have experimented with changing my bypass mundorf silver/oil caps from series to parallel with positive results. I didnt even believe in the concept of the "bypass" cap until I tried it. Dont get me wrong...I LOVE the sound I'm hearing. I have a disease. Its all good though. Put me in a house with tons of stuff. Thats probably not good! -- earwaxer9 System: modified Winsome Labs Mouse, modified Maggie MMG's, Transporter, HSU sub 12, MSB DAC to 500 watt sub slave amp, JPS labs power cords, Silver audio interconnect, Audioquest Granite speaker cable. earwaxer9's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=39527 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=88364 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Transporter EAC vs. CD audio... Throwing Down the Gauntlet !!!
Toy Maker;637345 Wrote: > That's the plan. Tom (the golden ear boy) says he will be > listening for cues like instrument placement to try to tell the 2 > apart. > > If both sources are digital to a single DAC... all should be equal, > no? Yup, if both transports are sending a bit-identical signal and have reasonably good jitter there should be no detectable difference. Check out http://www.libinst.com/Audio%20DiffMaker.htm -- SuperQ SuperQ's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=2139 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=88364 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Transporter EAC vs. CD audio... Throwing Down the Gauntlet !!!
That's the plan. Tom (the golden ear boy) says ge will be listening for cues like instrument placement to try to tell the 2 apart. If both sources are digital to a single DAC... all should be equal, no? -- Toy Maker (2) Squeezebox3's - (1) Transporter2 - 7TB Acer Home Server - iPad - iPeng And more toys than any one person should be aloud to own. Toy Maker's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=7397 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=88364 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Transporter EAC vs. CD audio... Throwing Down the Gauntlet !!!
All you are doing is comparing the tranporter/sb3/touch as a transport vs a dedicated transport (your cd player using it's digital out). I compared my transporter to a Theta Jade transport and the Transporter was better as a transport IMO. Just hook up both into a dac with 2 coax inputs using the same or similar digital cables and cue em up together , switch tween one and the other. -- Rodney_Gold TP/Z-sys RDP1 digital Pre/Meridian DSP5500's Or TP/DSP5500's Touch/Emotiva X-DA1 dac/ATC SCM 50a's SB3/Meridian DSP5000's TP/ GerdDAC or various other DAC's/Woo Audio Wa2 Headphone amp/Sehneisser Hd800's Touch/KrK Ergo/KrK VXT8 actives + 10S sub "The nicest thing about smacking your head against the wall is...the feeling you get when you stop" Rodney_Gold's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=14618 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=88364 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Transporter EAC vs. CD audio... Throwing Down the Gauntlet !!!
depending on the gear ( I have not heard yours ) You may not be able to tell any difference between any resonably good digital sources at all . throw in a cheap dvd player in the mix and try that to. -- Mnyb Main hifi: Touch + CIA PS +MeridianG68J MeridianHD621 MeridianG98DH 2 x MeridianDSP5200 MeridianDSP5200HC 2 xMeridianDSP3100 +Rel Stadium 3 sub. Bedroom/Office: Boom Kitchen: SB3 + powered Fostex PM0.4 Misc use: Radio (with battery) iPad 64gB wifi +3g with iPengHD & SqueezePad Mnyb's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=4143 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=88364 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Transporter EAC vs. CD audio... Throwing Down the Gauntlet !!!
Toy Maker;637046 Wrote: > No... Not at all... My "Golden Ear" Audiophile buddy, says he will > be able to hear the difference. He says the Transporter can not > reproduce a ripped CD to where he cant tell the difference. > I plan to prove him wrong. Assuming you're using a CD transport into the TP, it's theoretically possible the CD will sound worse (due to read errors). Other than that I am with you! -- darrenyeats http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/richpub/listmania/byauthor/A3H57URKQB8AQO/ref=cm_pdp_content_listmania/203-7606506-5721503. SB3, SB Touch SqueezeDroid for Android darrenyeats's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=10799 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=88364 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Transporter EAC vs. CD audio... Throwing Down the Gauntlet !!!
Toy Maker;637046 Wrote: > No... Not at all... My "Golden Ear" Audiophile buddy, says he will > be able to hear the difference. He says the Transporter can not > reproduce a ripped CD to where he cant tell the difference. > I plan to prove him wrong. What started at a very interesting point will vanish in tales. To bad! -- Wombat Transporter (modded) -> RG142 -> Avantgarde Acoustic based 500VA monoblocks -> Sommer SPK240 -> self-made speakers Wombat's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=4113 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=88364 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Transporter EAC vs. CD audio... Throwing Down the Gauntlet !!!
No... Not at all... My "Golden Ear" Audiophile buddy, says he will be able to hear the difference. He says the Transporter can not reproduce a ripped CD to where he cant tell the difference. I plan to prove him wrong. -- Toy Maker (2) Squeezebox3's - (1) Transporter2 - 7TB Acer Home Server - iPad - iPeng And more toys than any one person should be aloud to own. Toy Maker's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=7397 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=88364 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Transporter EAC vs. CD audio... Throwing Down the Gauntlet !!!
Toy Maker;637042 Wrote: > Again, the test is going to be redbook CDs ripped using EAC to raw wav > files. > Like millions of Squeeze users do all day long. They rip with EAC and enjoy. What do you want to prove then? EAC is not working? -- Wombat Transporter (modded) -> RG142 -> Avantgarde Acoustic based 500VA monoblocks -> Sommer SPK240 -> self-made speakers Wombat's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=4113 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=88364 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Transporter EAC vs. CD audio... Throwing Down the Gauntlet !!!
Damn screwed all that up, and the forum doesn't let you go back and edit your posts Sorry, iPads SUCK for typing on. -- Toy Maker (2) Squeezebox3's - (1) Transporter2 - 7TB Acer Home Server - iPad - iPeng And more toys than any one person should be aloud to own. Toy Maker's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=7397 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=88364 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Transporter EAC vs. CD audio... Throwing Down the Gauntlet !!!
Again, the test is going to be redbook CDs ripped using EAC to raw wav files. Both th cdp and the Transporterwill be wired to a preamp using 2 of the same digital cables, letting the preamp do all the DAC for both head units. We lwill video take the testing, and probably post it on YouTube sometime after Sep. Does anyone else know anyone that has done this test, and what the outcome was? -- Toy Maker (2) Squeezebox3's - (1) Transporter2 - 7TB Acer Home Server - iPad - iPeng And more toys than any one person should be aloud to own. Toy Maker's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=7397 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=88364 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Transporter EAC vs. CD audio... Throwing Down the Gauntlet !!!
Wombat;637015 Wrote: > Indeed there are many Hires releases where a better sounding Redbook > version is around. True but not what I meant by "surprised". I meant that the Transporter playing back high resolution files will sound very good and that it will be nearly impossible to tell the difference between the Transporter and a similarly priced, i.e. not a mega-buck, SACD/DVD-Audio disc player also playing a high resolution, i.e. SACD or DVD-Audio, disc. -- ralphpnj Lock, Stock and Two Smoking Barrels -> Snatch -> The Transporter -> Transporter 2 (oops) -> Touch 'Last.fm' (http://www.last.fm/user/jazzfann/) ralphpnj's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=10827 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=88364 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Transporter EAC vs. CD audio... Throwing Down the Gauntlet !!!
ralphpnj;637014 Wrote: > If not then I suggest that the Transporter's analog output when playing > back a high resolution digital audio file be directly compared to the > analog output of an SACD/DVD-Audio player playing back the same high > resolution material sourced from a little sliver disc. I think that > you'll be pleasantly surprised at the results. Indeed there are many Hires releases where a better sounding Redbook version is around. -- Wombat Transporter (modded) -> RG142 -> Avantgarde Acoustic based 500VA monoblocks -> Sommer SPK240 -> self-made speakers Wombat's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=4113 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=88364 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Transporter EAC vs. CD audio... Throwing Down the Gauntlet !!!
Wombat;637005 Wrote: > There is no way in ripping the data from a SACD and compare them with > playinbg back its digital data against PCM on any device. Only way to > get SACD digital PCM data is grabbing the data from a modified > SACD-Player that converts the DSD data from the SACD to PCM in the > unit. This isn´t the best but the only method i know of. Maybe using 2 > of these players then at once, one playing the SACD and the other > Redbook or DVD-A? No one will be able to tell you if the data has the > same source then or the master alone is different, not the format... > Of cause you can buy so called "Studio-Masters" PCM from HDtracks that > are nothing else but converted DSD to PCM data that once was sold as > SACD. They don´t tell you on what recordings it is that way! :) > > So better leave that comparison out this time. If there is a solution > at all it will be way to complicated to perform a valid test. You're correct in that there is not a good way to rip high resolution files from a SACD but hi-rez files can be easily ripped from DVD-Audio discs using DVD Audio Extractor. The only thing I'm not sure of is if there are any DVD-Audio players with digital outputs which support high resolution digital output. If not then I suggest that the Transporter's analog output when playing back a high resolution digital audio file be directly compared to the analog output of an SACD/DVD-Audio player playing back the same high resolution material sourced from a little sliver disc. I think that you'll be pleasantly surprised at the results. -- ralphpnj Lock, Stock and Two Smoking Barrels -> Snatch -> The Transporter -> Transporter 2 (oops) -> Touch 'Last.fm' (http://www.last.fm/user/jazzfann/) ralphpnj's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=10827 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=88364 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Transporter EAC vs. CD audio... Throwing Down the Gauntlet !!!
Toy Maker;637002 Wrote: > > I didn't know I could do the same test with SACDs.. I don't own any, > but I know the guy I am putting up to the test does. I will look into > ripping them as well. What software do you need to rip an SACD? > There is no way in ripping the data from a SACD and compare them with playinbg back its digital data against PCM on any device. Only way to get SACD digital PCM data is grabbing the data from a modified SACD-Player that converts the DSD data from the SACD to PCM in the unit. This isn´t the best but the only method i know of. Maybe using 2 of these players then at once, one playing the SACD and the other Redbook or DVD-A? No one will be able to tell you if the data has the same source then or the master alone is different, not the format... Of cause you can buy so called "Studio-Masters" PCM from HDtracks that are nothing else but converted DSD to PCM data that once was sold as SACD. Of cause they don´t tell you on what recordings it is that way! :) So better leave that comparison out this time. If there is a solution at all it will be way to complicated to perform a valid test. -- Wombat Transporter (modded) -> RG142 -> Avantgarde Acoustic based 500VA monoblocks -> Sommer SPK240 -> self-made speakers Wombat's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=4113 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=88364 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Transporter EAC vs. CD audio... Throwing Down the Gauntlet !!!
Well, I only own a pair of SB3s and a Transporter... So that's what I have to run the test... Yeah, I know about bypassing the Transporters DAC.. Otherwise you are just comparing DACs, and that is not the test at all. I want the most complete file possible for the test.. FLAC files would probably be just fine... But these guys are ANAL, and I want to avoid any possible chance of them hearing ANY difference. I didn't know I could do the same test with SACDs.. I don't own any, but I know the guy I am putting up to the test does. I will look into ripping them as well. What software do you need to rip an SACD? Sorry guys, I know its a Transporter SE, I just call it a "2"... Sorry. Ant what's with the lame aluminum round puck they replaced the knob with They didn't even line up the grain pattern... Pffft. I'm also replacing the rack handles with BLACK ones :). Then it will match all my other Carver gear. Yeah, in page 4 of the thread, I posted this... I plan on using a Proceed digital preamp I've had it for about a year and a half. I used it for a while before we got the Silver-1 installed. I have to say, that preamp is DAMN NICE... One of the coolest things about that preamp is the ability to make ANY input/output on the back run off ANY button on the front :shock: So say you want Digital input #5 as your main source, because that's the one you use 90% of the time.. You can program the preamp, so Source #1 on the front panel, is actually input #5 on the back... and so on. Pretty cool feature. It's also nice that it's 7.1 if you want a nice small HT setup connected as well. I pretty much just used it in 2.1 while I had it hooked up. (pretty sure it's dual zone too) :-k If you don't have a problem going over to the (REALLY DARK SIDE), and going "Digital" it's a really nice preamp !!! I can't say a single bad thing about the preamp itself. The remote is lacking a little, as it only has 12 buttons, but they do pretty much everything you'd ever need. Surprisingly enough, when I started talking about it yesterday, I did a little more reading, and found out that there was a "software upgrade" a while back.. Called up tech support last night, and they emailed me the files today... Damn good service still !! =D> > The digital section of the AVP uses Burr Brown 1702 20-bit Multibit DACs > for the left and right channels and 1-bit, 24-bit compatible AKM > Delta-Sigma DACs for the center, surround, aux and subwoofer channels. > *A dealer-provided software update will be available in the near future > to get your AVP ready for the 24-bit 96 kHz performance.* For the current used prices ($400-600) it's a damn good deal, and a REALLY high-end Preamp. It helped that I got mine in a package deal, and after I sold a couple other items, it wound up being free \:D/ Can't go wrong with free. Not too hard to look at either [image: http://i20.photobucket.com/albums/b227/busterkeatonrules/AVP1.jpg] [image: http://www.bjorn.tornroth.net/img_L//Proceed_AVP2_rear.jpg] -- Toy Maker (2) Squeezebox3's - (1) Transporter2 - 7TB Acer Home Server - iPad - iPeng And more toys than any one person should be aloud to own. Toy Maker's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=7397 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=88364 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Transporter EAC vs. CD audio... Throwing Down the Gauntlet !!!
Toy Maker;636892 Wrote: > I just thought you guys might be interested in an ongoing "contest" of > the "Golden Ear" > I am the owner of CarverAudio.com and we have an annual audio fest in > Sep. every year. > For the past 3 years, I have claimed that "If set up correctly FULLY > DIGITAL" you will not be able to tell an EAC file played through a > Transporter, and the original CD it was ripped from. > Well this year, all the toys are in place to run a fair test. I opened > and setup my Transporter2 today, and I hear an AMAZING difference from > my old Squeezebox3. > Has anyone ever done this test, and what were the results? > > Here is the thread on my forum, overviewing the test, and how we plan > to run all the equipment. > http://carveraudio.com/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=151&t=14068 > > PS, this is my living room, so I like to think I'm in the "Audiophile" > legue, well at least a little maybe ;) I read through a good deal of the referenced thread and here are some observations: 1) Do not use the internal DAC of the Transporter running directly into a power amp, i.e a set up with no pre-amp. In this type of set up the volume would be controlled by the Transporter and would be operating in the digital domain. The only way to ensure bit perfect playback of the wav file being played by the Transporter is by having the volume fixed at 100%. 2) Why use a Transporter? Why not use a Squeezbox Touch's digital output? 3) Why use wav files? Why not convert the wav files to flac files? Now this would be a real test, a test that the Transporter (or Touch)/flac combo should pass with flying colors. 4) The external DAC used should have at least two independent inputs, e.g. coax and optical, and the ability to remotely switch between the inputs. That way the Transporter can be connected to one input and the digital output of the CD player/transport connected to the other input. and finally 5) Why limit the shootout to redbook CDs and CD resolution (16bit/44.1kHz) files? Both the Transporter and the Touch can handle up to 24bit/96kHz resolution files so make part of the test be between DVD-Audio and SACD playback versus high resolution wav/flac file playback. -- ralphpnj Lock, Stock and Two Smoking Barrels -> Snatch -> The Transporter -> Transporter 2 (oops) -> Touch 'Last.fm' (http://www.last.fm/user/jazzfann/) ralphpnj's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=10827 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=88364 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Transporter EAC vs. CD audio... Throwing Down the Gauntlet !!!
Make sure you have got AccurateRip setup and working in EAC and you are using discs in the AccurateRip database. -- andynormancx Yes, it will. Yes, all of them. Yes, SoftSqueeze as well. What ? I SAID ALL OF THEM ! andynormancx's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=17417 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=88364 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Transporter EAC vs. CD audio... Throwing Down the Gauntlet !!!
What is a Transporter2 ? As far as I am aware there has only ever been one Transporter (discounting the Transporter SE that is just the same with the knob removed). -- andynormancx Yes, it will. Yes, all of them. Yes, SoftSqueeze as well. What ? I SAID ALL OF THEM ! andynormancx's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=17417 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=88364 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
[SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Transporter EAC vs. CD audio... Throwing Down the Gauntlet !!!
I just thought you guys might be interested in an ongoing "contest" of the "Golden Ear" I am the owner of CarverAudio.com and we have an annual audio fest in Sep. every year. For the past 3 years, I have claimed that "If set up correctly FULLY DIGITAL" you will not be able to tell an EAC file played through a Transporter, and the original CD it was ripped from. Well this year, all the toys are in place to run a fair test. I opened and setup my Transporter2 today, and I hear an AMAZING difference from my old Squeezebox3. Has anyone ever done this test, and what were the results? Here is the thread on my forum, overviewing the test, and how we plan to run all the equipment. http://carveraudio.com/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=151&t=14068 PS, this is my living room, so I like to think I'm in the "Audiophile" legue, well at least a little ;) -- Toy Maker (2) Squeezebox3's - (1) Transporter2 - 7TB Acer Home Server - iPad - iPeng Toy Maker's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=7397 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=88364 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
