Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] What mods on SB3 REALLY make a difference in reducing jitter?
seanadams;199637 Wrote: > i2s eliminates one weakness of s/pdif, the biphase clock recovery, but > that is not the only source of jitter. Unless you get the clock very > close to the DAC, and without going through a cable and connectors, it > is not going to be a huge overall improvement. Why don't you put the > oscillator in the DAC, and use a word clock to sync the SB? I am doing this in the DAC I'm currently designing, the Formula One. You are correct, there are many sources of jitter. However, believe me, this is actually is a huge improvement in jitter reduction, even with the external I2S bus. My I2S bus has extremely low jitter and the number of buffers between the master clock and the D/A chip is minimized in my I2S DAC's. This is the way that the S/PDIF bus should have been designed in the first place, with the master clock at the D/A chip. Read this review of my external I2S bus driving a Benchmark DAC-1 with I2S interface: http://www.6moons.com/audioreviews/empirical/offramp.html Steve N. Empirical Audio -- audioengr audioengr's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=8041 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=34749 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] What mods on SB3 REALLY make a difference in reducing jitter?
audioengr;199628 Wrote: > > Why an I2S bus as an output? Because, there is little point in > eliminating jitter just to add it back in by encoding and decoding > S/PDIF. There are enough great DAC's with I2S input available anyway. i2s eliminates one weakness of s/pdif, the biphase clock recovery, but that is not the only source of jitter. Unless you get the clock very close to the DAC, and without going through a cable and connectors, it is not going to be a huge overall improvement. Why don't you put the oscillator in the DAC, and use a word clock to sync the SB? -- seanadams seanadams's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=3 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=34749 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] What mods on SB3 REALLY make a difference in reducing jitter?
I have a mod that will make jitter inaudible. It is called a "Pace-Car". It is a block box that provides the master clock to the SB3 over a mini-coax cable. The internal clock is replaced with this clock. Then the data is clocked from the SB3 over the S/PDIF cable into a FIFO memory in the Pace-Car and then reclocked out using the master clock to an I2S bus. The master clock can be a Superclock4, Ultraclock or even a Studio clock if the frequency is correct. Why an I2S bus as an output? Because, there is little point in eliminating jitter just to add it back in by encoding and decoding S/PDIF. There are enough great DAC's with I2S input available anyway. Steve N. -- audioengr audioengr's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=8041 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=34749 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] What mods on SB3 REALLY make a difference in reducing jitter?
mswlogo;199204 Wrote: > There is a strong bias by audiophiles that Coax (RCA) is better than > TosLink. I wouldn't avoid RCA 75ohm Coax just because there is a debate > over BNC vs RCA connectors. My understanding is that RCA connectors are > fine at the speeds and distances SPDIF runs. This is highly dependent on the cable used and the edge-rates. The slow edge-rates typical of consumer gear makes the connectors a dont-care. However, it also aggravates jitter at the same time. Slow edge-rates are necessary for most manufacturers in order to pass FCC emissions testing. The theory says that S/PDIF will be superior to Toslink, but this assumes a good implementation. -- audioengr audioengr's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=8041 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=34749 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] What mods on SB3 REALLY make a difference in reducing jitter?
krochat;199420 Wrote: > Yes, Cool Edit is as good as Audition as far as I know. I've used both > with good results. It has little to do with your personal experience. Check this thread first: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=32958 Or go directly to http://src.infinitewave.ca/, it's nice tool for SRC comparison. Converters using Secret Rabbit Code are... well... see yourself. -- 325xi 325xi's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=5661 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=34749 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] What mods on SB3 REALLY make a difference in reducing jitter?
Phil Leigh;199592 Wrote: > Kim - I'm keen to try this 48k into tact thing but I don't have Audition > and my Cool Edit has "disappeared" (I hadn't used it in a long long > time) - are there any other packages that can do a good job of > 44.1-48...preferably ones that I can try before buy with full length > files? There's a 30-day free trial of Audition at http://www.adobe.com/downloads/ Regarding other tools, you can see an interesting (or alarming) comparison at http://www.bias-inc.com/products/peakPro5/resampling/peakResamplingWhitePaper.pdf Regards, Kim -- krochat -- SB3 (+linear) -> Big Ben -> TacT RCS 2.2X -> 2xS2150 -> Vandersteen 3a Signature + TacT W210 krochat's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=6579 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=34749 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] What mods on SB3 REALLY make a difference in reducing jitter?
dbpoweramp can do it. How good it is I can't say. They seem to do everything I need extremely well. -- mswlogo mswlogo's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=9090 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=34749 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] What mods on SB3 REALLY make a difference in reducing jitter?
krochat;199420 Wrote: > You don't even have to de/re flac - there's a FLAC plugin for > Audition/Cool Edit - http://www.vuplayer.com/audition.php > > Yes, Cool Edit is as good as Audition as far as I know. I've used both > with good results. I don't know if the Audition function is exactly the > same as the Cool Edit function or not, but in any case it's not worth > buying Audition if you already have CoolEdit (well, except for the > Batch Conversion function that Audition has). > > Regards, > Kim Kim - I'm keen to try this 48k into tact thing but I don't have Audition and my Cool Edit has "disappeared" (I hadn't used it in a long long time) - are there any other packages that can do a good job of 44.1-48...preferably ones that I can try before buy with full length files? -- Phil Leigh Phil Leigh's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=85 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=34749 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] What mods on SB3 REALLY make a difference in reducing jitter?
mswlogo;199441 Wrote: > You can do it all in one shot with Dbpoweramp Flac to FLac and retain > tags and use the DSP Plugins to make the change. I don't know how well > it does compared to other tools though. > > But resampling from 44.1 to 48 is IMHO useless. Yes - but I have a TACT RCS... -- Phil Leigh Phil Leigh's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=85 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=34749 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] What mods on SB3 REALLY make a difference in reducing jitter?
Phil Leigh;199407 Wrote: > This I have to try...so do you start with a 16/44.1 wav, upsample it to > 48k with audition and re-flac it? > > And would Cool Edit be as good? (isn't that where Audition came from?) You can do it all in one shot with Dbpoweramp Flac to FLac and retain tags and use the DSP Plugins to make the change. I don't know how well it does compared to other tools though. But resampling from 44.1 to 48 is IMHO useless. -- mswlogo mswlogo's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=9090 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=34749 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] What mods on SB3 REALLY make a difference in reducing jitter?
Phil Leigh;199407 Wrote: > This I have to try...so do you start with a 16/44.1 wav, upsample it to > 48k with audition and re-flac it? > > And would Cool Edit be as good? (isn't that where Audition came from?) You don't even have to de/re flac - there's a FLAC plugin for Audition/Cool Edit - http://www.vuplayer.com/audition.php Yes, Cool Edit is as good as Audition as far as I know. I've used both with good results. I don't know if the Audition function is exactly the same as the Cool Edit function or not, but in any case it's not worth buying Audition if you already have CoolEdit (well, except for the Batch Conversion function that Audition has). Regards, Kim -- krochat -- SB3 (+linear) -> Big Ben -> TacT RCS 2.2X -> 2xS2150 -> Vandersteen 3a Signature + TacT W210 krochat's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=6579 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=34749 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] What mods on SB3 REALLY make a difference in reducing jitter?
krochat;199365 Wrote: > The TacT RCS uses an AD1896 ASRC to convert all digital input to 96kHz > for internal processing. It does an audibly worse job of converting > 44.1 kHz input to 96kHz than it does converting 48kHz input to 96kHz > (that is, non-integral conversions are worse than integral conversions > - the same point I think you've been trying to make). > > Adobe Audition is sonically superior to the AD1896 at converting > 44.1kHz to either 48kHz or 96kHz. The TacT guys convert to 48kHz since > that's the most the SB3 supports (and it saves disk space). > > Regards, > Kim This I have to try...so do you start with a 16/44.1 wav, upsample it to 48k with audition and re-flac it? -- Phil Leigh Phil Leigh's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=85 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=34749 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] What mods on SB3 REALLY make a difference in reducing jitter?
325xi;199355 Wrote: > Perceived improvement isn't necessarily a real one. I guess the same could be said for the reported improvements of the Transporter over the SB3. -- jhm731 jhm731's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=7685 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=34749 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] What mods on SB3 REALLY make a difference in reducing jitter?
325xi;199355 Wrote: > ...So, even though upsampling from 44.1 to 48 doesn't make much sense, > Adobe might do it well enough so the inevitable damage would not be > audible. The TacT RCS uses an AD1896 ASRC to convert all digital input to 96kHz for internal processing. It does an audibly worse job of converting 44.1 kHz input to 96kHz than it does converting 48kHz input to 96kHz (that is, non-integral conversions are worse than integral conversions - the same point I think you've been trying to make). Adobe Audition is sonically superior to the AD1896 at converting 44.1kHz to either 48kHz or 96kHz. The TacT guys convert to 48kHz since that's the most the SB3 supports (and it saves disk space). Regards, Kim -- krochat -- SB3 (+linear) -> Big Ben -> TacT RCS 2.2X -> 2xS2150 -> Vandersteen 3a Signature + TacT W210 krochat's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=6579 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=34749 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] What mods on SB3 REALLY make a difference in reducing jitter?
jhm731;199349 Wrote: > Many TacT RCS/SB3 users report improvements using Adobe Audition to > upsample files to 16/48. Perceived improvement isn't necessarily a real one. However, there was a thread recently, with comparison of SRC software, and there were just 2 or 3 products that did conversion acceptably or better. The rest were producing huge amount of artifacts. Adobe was among the good ones. So, even though upsampling from 44.1 to 48 doesn't make much sense, Adobe might do it well enough so the inevitable damage would not be audible. -- 325xi 325xi's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=5661 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=34749 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] What mods on SB3 REALLY make a difference in reducing jitter?
mswlogo;199203 Wrote: > Resampling to 44.1khz to 48khz is a bad idea. If it supported 88.2Khz is > fine but unfortunately Slim Devices doesn't support 88.2Khz. Upsampling > to 96khz is useless on SqueezeBox 3 since it would down sample back > 48Khz. > > In fact people go to great lengths to get their computers to NOT > resample 44.1Khz CD's to 48khz on their SPDIF capable sound cards. > > Sorry but this would do more harm than good, really bad idea. Many TacT RCS/SB3 users report improvements using Adobe Audition to upsample files to 16/48. -- jhm731 jhm731's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=7685 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=34749 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] What mods on SB3 REALLY make a difference in reducing jitter?
ErikM;199309 Wrote: > The unit is Selectable for 48 or 96 upsampling.. I upsample to 24/94 > which my DAC will accept. The original poster had asked what's the best > way to reduce jitter.. I assume that the poster wanted to reduced jitter > to improve the sound.. hence the Monarchy DIP which in my system was a > noticable improvement for not a lot of $$.. as always YMMV. It would be interesting to see what artifacts are being produced on the way from 44.1 to 96... -- 325xi 325xi's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=5661 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=34749 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] What mods on SB3 REALLY make a difference in reducing jitter?
The unit is Selectable for 48 or 96 upsampling.. I upsample to 24/94 which my DAC will accept. The original poster had asked what's the best way to reduce jitter.. I assume that the poster wanted to reduced jitter to improve the sound.. hence the Monarchy DIP which in my system was a noticable improvement for not a lot of $$.. as always YMMV. mswlogo;199203 Wrote: > Resampling to 44.1khz to 48khz is a bad idea. If it supported 88.2Khz is > fine but unfortunately Slim Devices doesn't support 88.2Khz. Upsampling > to 96khz is useless on SqueezeBox 3 since it would down sample back > 48Khz. > > In fact people go to great lengths to get their computers to NOT > resample 44.1Khz CD's to 48khz on their SPDIF capable sound cards. > > Sorry but this would do more harm than good, really bad idea. -- ErikM ErikM's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=7576 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=34749 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] What mods on SB3 REALLY make a difference in reducing jitter?
mswlogo;199204 Wrote: > There is a strong bias by audiophiles that Coax (RCA) is better than > TosLink. I wouldn't avoid RCA 75ohm Coax just because there is a debate > over BNC vs RCA connectors. My understanding is that RCA connectors are > fine at the speeds and distances SPDIF runs. Hmmm - bias indeed. In fact in some systems TOSLINK sounds better. In many systems there is no audible difference. Since the choice of SPDIF vs. TOSLINK is system-dependant, the best thing to do is to listen and then choose. -- Phil Leigh Phil Leigh's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=85 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=34749 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] What mods on SB3 REALLY make a difference in reducing jitter?
Anne;199114 Wrote: > Well, then its Toslink for me then because the Bryston dac do not have > bnc either There is a strong bias by audiophiles that Coax (RCA) is better than TosLink. I wouldn't avoid RCA 75ohm Coax just because there is a debate over BNC vs RCA connectors. My understanding is that RCA connectors are fine at the speeds and distances SPDIF runs. -- mswlogo mswlogo's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=9090 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=34749 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] What mods on SB3 REALLY make a difference in reducing jitter?
ErikM;199115 Wrote: > Best way to reduce jitter and improve sound.. Monarchy 48/96 DIP > upsamper... Cheap and good! Resampling to 44.1khz to 48khz is a bad idea. If it supported 88.2Khz is fine but unfortunately Slim Devices doesn't support 88.2Khz. Upsampling to 96khz is useless on SqueezeBox 3 since it would down sample back 48Khz. In fact people go to great lengths to get their computers to NOT resample 44.1Khz CD's to 48khz on their SPDIF capable sound cards. Sorry but this would do more harm than good, really bad idea. -- mswlogo mswlogo's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=9090 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=34749 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] What mods on SB3 REALLY make a difference in reducing jitter?
AndyC_772;198931 Wrote: > So... measurements aren't everything. That's not news - just look at the > specs of any valve amp. > > The first rule of choosing hi-fi is to trust your own ears. How the > product works, and what measurements can be made from it, may be of > academic interest to potential buyers - but it's only the design > engineer that really needs to know about them. I can't kill my "inner engineer"! And this is one of the reasons I don't use any valve amps. ;) No, really, measurements are just measurements, they are not good or bad. They can only be good or bad for a particular application. If they are bad for this application, but the device sounds good, then either I'm deaf, or requirements for this application are incorrect. I suspect the second options is closer to reality, but as long as we don't have any better requirements for audio gear I can't sleep well, knowing that my DAC measures baaad... -- 325xi 325xi's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=5661 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=34749 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] What mods on SB3 REALLY make a difference in reducing jitter?
opaqueice;198986 Wrote: > In fairness, the requirements for sending an S/PDIF signal are rather > different than for an analogue audio signal. As I've learned on this > forum, you have to remember that even GHz frequency components might be > relevant in S/PDIF transmission (as filtering them will round off > transitions and induce jitter). That brings even relatively short > cables into the transmission line regime, whereas for analogue audio > that's not the case at all. > > Of course that doesn't imply that any of this will make an audible > difference - I suspect not - but one can over-engineer. Now that's interesting... So we're on the way back to over-everything SPDIF cables? -- 325xi 325xi's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=5661 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=34749 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] What mods on SB3 REALLY make a difference in reducing jitter?
Best way to reduce jitter and improve sound.. Monarchy 48/96 DIP upsamper... Cheap and good! -- ErikM ErikM's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=7576 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=34749 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] What mods on SB3 REALLY make a difference in reducing jitter?
mswlogo;199113 Wrote: > That's exactly what we are talking about. Waste of money unless you have > a true BNC requirement on least one end (Source or DAC). Well, then its Toslink for me then because the Bryston dac do not have bnc either -- Anne Bryston B-100 SST, Squeezebox 3, Martin Logan Aeon I. Anne's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=10071 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=34749 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] What mods on SB3 REALLY make a difference in reducing jitter?
crooner;199024 Wrote: > The Stereovox cable is the other way around. It is terminated with true > 75 ohm BNC connectors with optional lock-in RCA adapters. It was > designed by the same engineer that devised the famed Illuminati D60 > cable. That's exactly what we are talking about. Waste of money unless you have a true BNC requirement on least one end (Source or DAC). -- mswlogo mswlogo's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=9090 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=34749 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] What mods on SB3 REALLY make a difference in reducing jitter?
The Stereovox cable is the other way around. It is terminated with true 75 ohm BNC connectors with optional lock-in RCA adapters. It was designed by the same engineer that devised the famed Illuminati D60 cable. -- crooner Customized dual chassis "Super Squeezebox" EAD DSP-7000 MKIII DAC with HDCD VPI Scout with Benz Micro Glider M2 Audio Research PH3, SP16L and VS110 Vandersteen 2Ce signatures, 2W subwoofer. crooner's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=3379 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=34749 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] What mods on SB3 REALLY make a difference in reducing jitter?
Pat Farrell;199012 Wrote: > mswlogo wrote: > > Adding BNC to RCA adapters can only make it worse. > > It would probably work fine but you're defeating the purpose of > having > > the BNC connectors in the first place. > > I don't think anyone would use two RCA to BNC connectors on a single > cable. Typically you use one when you have something like a SqueezeBox > > that has RCA only, and something like a Benchmark DAC-1, which has BNC > > only (for coax). So without soldering up custom cables, you end up with > > one adaptor, using a RCA-to-RCA cable, and putting one RCA-to-BNC on > the > end into your Benchmark. > > > > -- > Pat > http://www.pfarrell.com/music/slimserver/slimsoftware.html I think Anne a few posts back was asking such a quaestion thinking that a "BNC" cable was possibly still a better option using 2 BNC adapters that were included. Companies do sell such things as she showed in the link she provided. -- mswlogo mswlogo's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=9090 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=34749 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] What mods on SB3 REALLY make a difference in reducing jitter?
mswlogo wrote: > Adding BNC to RCA adapters can only make it worse. > It would probably work fine but you're defeating the purpose of having > the BNC connectors in the first place. I don't think anyone would use two RCA to BNC connectors on a single cable. Typically you use one when you have something like a SqueezeBox that has RCA only, and something like a Benchmark DAC-1, which has BNC only (for coax). So without soldering up custom cables, you end up with one adaptor, using a RCA-to-RCA cable, and putting one RCA-to-BNC on the end into your Benchmark. -- Pat http://www.pfarrell.com/music/slimserver/slimsoftware.html ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] What mods on SB3 REALLY make a difference in reducing jitter?
Pat Farrell;198969 Wrote: > Anne wrote: > > I have ordered the dac upgrade for my Bryston, it has 2 Toslink and > 2 > > idpf (or whatever) inputs. > > Thought I should go for this digital cable : > > http://www.deko.no/produkter_studio.htm#XV2 > > comes with bnc connectors but bnc to rca adapters are included > > Maybe just a cheap video composite cabel will do just as good ? > > Is Toslink better maybe ? > > There is no such thing as a digital cable. All cables send voltages > down > the wire. When you send a digital signal down a wire, the receiving end > > senses just the major transitions. Analog signals are sensed high, low, > > and in between. > > Technically, you can not have a proper 75 ohm connector using RCA. But > > for 99% of the uses, no one can tell any difference. Nearly all > professional digital connections are BNC. Nearly all amateur/consumer > gear uses RCA. > > Toslink is not better in theory, but it does avoid electrical > connections, so it can be more immune to ground loops. > In theory, toslink is worse than BNC 75 ohm connections, > but I never could tell a difference. > > Good quality 75 ohm video cable should work fine. > > What do you mean, just as good? This is an audiophiles list, we obscess > > over everything. > > > -- > Pat > http://www.pfarrell.com/music/slimserver/slimsoftware.html Adding BNC to RCA adapters can only make it worse. It would probably work fine but you're defeating the purpose of having the BNC connectors in the first place. You might as well skip the BNC all together and connect the RCA plug directly to the correct 75ohm cable. That is, just get a 75 Ohm RCA to RCA Video Cable. That is, unless your willing to change the connectors to BNC on the SB3 and the Amp. -- mswlogo mswlogo's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=9090 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=34749 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] What mods on SB3 REALLY make a difference in reducing jitter?
Pat Farrell;198969 Wrote: > > There is no such thing as a digital cable. All cables send voltages > down > the wire. When you send a digital signal down a wire, the receiving end > > senses just the major transitions. Analog signals are sensed high, low, > > and in between. > In fairness, the requirements for sending an S/PDIF signal are rather different than for an analogue audio signal. As I've learned on this forum, you have to remember that even GHz frequency components might be relevant in S/PDIF transmission (as filtering them will round off transitions and induce jitter). That brings even relatively short cables into the transmission line regime, whereas for analogue audio that's not the case at all. Of course that doesn't imply that any of this will make an audible difference - I suspect not - but one can over-engineer. -- opaqueice opaqueice's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=4234 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=34749 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] What mods on SB3 REALLY make a difference in reducing jitter?
Anne wrote: > I have ordered the dac upgrade for my Bryston, it has 2 Toslink and 2 > idpf (or whatever) inputs. > Thought I should go for this digital cable : > http://www.deko.no/produkter_studio.htm#XV2 > comes with bnc connectors but bnc to rca adapters are included > Maybe just a cheap video composite cabel will do just as good ? > Is Toslink better maybe ? There is no such thing as a digital cable. All cables send voltages down the wire. When you send a digital signal down a wire, the receiving end senses just the major transitions. Analog signals are sensed high, low, and in between. Technically, you can not have a proper 75 ohm connector using RCA. But for 99% of the uses, no one can tell any difference. Nearly all professional digital connections are BNC. Nearly all amateur/consumer gear uses RCA. Toslink is not better in theory, but it does avoid electrical connections, so it can be more immune to ground loops. In theory, toslink is worse than BNC 75 ohm connections, but I never could tell a difference. Good quality 75 ohm video cable should work fine. What do you mean, just as good? This is an audiophiles list, we obscess over everything. -- Pat http://www.pfarrell.com/music/slimserver/slimsoftware.html ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] What mods on SB3 REALLY make a difference in reducing jitter?
jonte0;198261 Wrote: > You can rule out: > 5) Using Wifi instead of wired (e-net wires have tons of nasty stuff on > them). > > as there is no exctraction of any timing info from ethernet. Then of > cource there could be other electrical aspects of ethernet but as it is > transformer coupled, these shuld be small. > > / The point here was not that Wired vs Wifi would recieve better. But what are the side effects down stream of having one vs the other active in the box. Some believe removing the Wifi card helps. While as I understand it the frequencies and power used on the wired side are much more likely to effect the audible domain than the higher frequency low power stuff of wifi. Similar argument used on the linear vs switched power supply. -- mswlogo mswlogo's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=9090 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=34749 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] What mods on SB3 REALLY make a difference in reducing jitter?
Anne;198954 Wrote: > I have ordered the dac upgrade for my Bryston, it has 2 Toslink and 2 > idpf (or whatever) inputs. > Thought I should go for this digital cable : > http://www.deko.no/produkter_studio.htm#XV2 > comes with bnc connectors but bnc to rca adapters are included > Maybe just a cheap video composite cabel will do just as good ? > Is Toslink better maybe ? The Stereovox is an excellent cable. I'm using the earlier HDXV and couldn't be happier. The BNC to RCA adapters are really cool and very flexible. -- crooner Customized dual chassis "Super Squeezebox" EAD DSP-7000 MKIII DAC with HDCD VPI Scout with Benz Micro Glider M2 Audio Research PH3, SP16L and VS110 Vandersteen 2Ce signatures, 2W subwoofer. crooner's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=3379 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=34749 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] What mods on SB3 REALLY make a difference in reducing jitter?
I have ordered the dac upgrade for my Bryston, it has 2 Toslink and 2 idpf (or whatever) inputs. Thought I should go for this digital cable : http://www.deko.no/produkter_studio.htm#XV2 comes with bnc connectors but bnc to rca adapters are included Maybe just a cheap video composite cabel will do just as good ? Is Toslink better maybe ? -- Anne Bryston B-100 SST, Squeezebox 3, Martin Logan Aeon I. Anne's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=10071 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=34749 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] What mods on SB3 REALLY make a difference in reducing jitter?
Indeed. It is a true 75 ohm connector and designed to maintain a constant impedance. This is what I plan to use in my DAC and SB modifications. -- crooner Customized dual chassis "Super Squeezebox" EAD DSP-7000 MKIII DAC with HDCD VPI Scout with Benz Micro Glider M2 Audio Research PH3, SP16L and VS110 Vandersteen 2Ce signatures, 2W subwoofer. crooner's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=3379 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=34749 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] What mods on SB3 REALLY make a difference in reducing jitter?
Maybe a bit OT, but isnt bnc superior as a digital connector ? -- Anne Bryston B-100 SST, Squeezebox 3, Martin Logan Aeon I. Anne's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=10071 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=34749 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] What mods on SB3 REALLY make a difference in reducing jitter?
I hope Meridian doesn't rip off Slim's ideas and then promote them as their own, taking all the glory. That would suck big time! -- crooner Customized dual chassis "Super Squeezebox" EAD DSP-7000 MKIII DAC with HDCD VPI Scout with Benz Micro Glider M2 Audio Research PH3, SP16L and VS110 Vandersteen 2Ce signatures, 2W subwoofer. crooner's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=3379 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=34749 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] What mods on SB3 REALLY make a difference in reducing jitter?
ncpl;198385 Wrote: > I, and a few others, tried to extract a few thoughts on SB's etc whilst > chatting with the powers that be at Meridian back in February. They > didn't make much comment either way. > > Do you have any other insight? > > Ultimately, I would like to see them put some of their digital knowhow > into this area of client hardware (heresy I know on a Slim forum ;) ) Using an SB system to access the music, going directly (clock-synced, not SPDIF) to a Meridian active system (or even an F80!) would be a great idea, IMO. However, I have no inside info - the guys at Meridian raved about their Squeezeboxes, but didn't let on anything. I wonder if they are creating their own slim streaming device - they have all the tech. Can't imagine it'll compete on price with the SB3 (or indeed the Transporter) though. If they do create it, one suspects the hi-fi press will drool suitably and say what a great idea it was! Adam -- adamslim Those are my principles, and if you don't like them... well, I have others http://www.last.fm/user/AdamSlim/ 'Last.fm group: people who don't listen to any of last.fm's top artists' (http://www.last.fm/group/People+who+don%27t+listen+to+any+of+last.fm%27s+top+artists) adamslim's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=7355 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=34749 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] What mods on SB3 REALLY make a difference in reducing jitter?
So... measurements aren't everything. That's not news - just look at the specs of any valve amp. The first rule of choosing hi-fi is to trust your own ears. How the product works, and what measurements can be made from it, may be of academic interest to potential buyers - but it's only the design engineer that really needs to know about them. -- AndyC_772 AndyC_772's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=10472 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=34749 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] What mods on SB3 REALLY make a difference in reducing jitter?
Ben Diss;198021 Wrote: > Summary of the "Lavry" issue: When the DA10 was first introduced the > manual stated that is was not oversampling. A revision of the manual > later removed that statement. It appears that the Lavry does indeed > oversample. > > That's it. Nothing more. It still sounds as good as it ever did. > > -Ben The problem is not with his statements - according to the info posted there it measures very badly. May be not a real problem to worry about, but it does make me wondering... What's true is that whatever problems are there I can't name any other DAC that sounds that good at $1K price point. -- 325xi 325xi's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=5661 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=34749 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] What mods on SB3 REALLY make a difference in reducing jitter?
Patrick Dixon;198013 Wrote: > http://www.diyhifi.org/forums/viewtopic.php?t=1027 Oh, sh*t! I was about to order it... What I don't get is how does it manage to sound that good after all the terrible measuarements - Phase noise, power supply noise, etc? -- 325xi 325xi's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=5661 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=34749 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] What mods on SB3 REALLY make a difference in reducing jitter?
Hi Adam, > I know Meridian are big fans of the Squeezebox. I, and a few others, tried to extract a few thoughts on SB's etc whilst chatting with the powers that be at Meridian back in February. They didn't make much comment either way. Do you have any other insight? Ultimately, I would like to see them put some of their digital knowhow into this area of client hardware (heresy I know on a Slim forum ;) ) BTW...I use their DSP speakers also and am very pleased with them, especially partnered with the SB. I run it through one of their processors also to bring multi-channel and room correction etc into the mix. -- ncpl ncpl's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=6305 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=34749 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] What mods on SB3 REALLY make a difference in reducing jitter?
mswlogo wrote: > Robin Bowes;197984 Wrote: >> >> Have you considered both the performance of the SB3->DAC interface, >> and the performance of the DAC itself as possible variables in the >> digital->analogue chain? >> > > I didn't follow your last comment. > I was simply suggesting that you should consider the whole signal chain in your efforts to improve the sound, ie. it's not just about reducing jitter in the SB3 - you should also consider the performance of the connection from SB3->DAC and the DAC itself. R. ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] What mods on SB3 REALLY make a difference in reducing jitter?
Robin Bowes;198263 Wrote: > I was simply suggesting that you should consider the whole signal chain > in your efforts to improve the sound, ie. it's not just about reducing > jitter in the SB3 - you should also consider the performance of the > connection from SB3->DAC and the DAC itself. OP has the Meridian digital active speakers - the DAC is in the speaker. Interesting to see how they sort out the digital timings in those, with totally discrete DACs. No doubt those smart guys at Meridian have done something sensible! I have always been deeply impressed by their kit, but never actually really liked it. I had a 500/566 CD before my Shanling, and it was amazingly uninvolving - no PRaT at all, despite seeming perfect. Anyway, back on topic... I know Meridian are big fans of the Squeezebox. With digital actives there's nothing you can do about the DAC, so I would have thought that the most important factor is working out how to connect the SB3 to the speakers with a true 75 ohm - the cables will be long. Maybe get decent BNC connectors or even try optical (if available?). Would one of their digital pre-amps help the interface? Adam -- adamslim SB3 into Derek Shek d2, Shanling CDT-100, Rotel RT-990BX, Esoteric Audio Research 859, Living Voice Auditorium IIs, Nordost and Anti-cables http://www.last.fm/user/AdamSlim/ adamslim's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=7355 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=34749 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] What mods on SB3 REALLY make a difference in reducing jitter?
You can rule out: 5) Using Wifi instead of wired (e-net wires have tons of nasty stuff on them). as there is no exctraction of anytiming info from ethernet. Then of cource there could be other electrical aspects of ethernet but as it is transformer coupled, these shuld be small. / -- jonte0 jonte0's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=11065 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=34749 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] What mods on SB3 REALLY make a difference in reducing jitter?
Ben Diss;198021 Wrote: > Summary of the "Lavry" issue: When the DA10 was first introduced the > manual stated that is was not oversampling. A revision of the manual > later removed that statement. It appears that the Lavry does indeed > oversample. > > That's it. Nothing more. It still sounds as good as it ever did. > > -Ben Based on the DA10 PSU info presented by JohnW on the www.diyhifi.org forum, I still wonder if the DA10 would sound better with a linear PSU. -- jhm731 jhm731's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=7685 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=34749 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] What mods on SB3 REALLY make a difference in reducing jitter?
Patrick Dixon;198065 Wrote: > > BTW, IIRC it was ASRC rather than overclocking. And to summarize the ASRC issue: "The point is, there is simply no need to corrupt the Audio data with an ASRC just to attenuate Jitter, when all that is need is to regenerate a clean clock. This design has the basic ingredients to do this but still uses the ASRC. This is what I'm struggling with, especially when the designer comments on the degradation introduced by ASRC then proclaims the design to have a "bit transparent" mode." -JohnW, DIYHiFi.org, http://www.diyhifi.org/forums/viewtopic.php?p=23881#23881 In light of this, the change in the manual speaks volumes: __Rev. 3.1__ The LavryBlack DA10 features: - Ultra low jitter modes (without sample rate conversion). __Rev. 3.2__ The LavryBlack DA10 features: - Ultra low jitter modes. Perhaps the earlier models did have/utilize such modes, but if ASRC is used in all modes now, aren't we paying for components that aren't necessary? I wouldn't want a glowing tube in my preamp if the signal didn't even go through it! My favorite part of the thread is when Jim Hagerman, when talking about the ideal method of jitter rejection, names our beloved slimserver :-) "Personally, I think the ultimate would be closer to a slimserver approach. That is, suck the entire song or album into memory. Then play it back at your leisure with a dedicated clock. No pll, no tracking. You get fast forward, rewind, etc.." Anyway, thanks for the link. -- Skunk Skunk's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=2685 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=34749 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] What mods on SB3 REALLY make a difference in reducing jitter?
Excellent point there! The SB2 (identical to SB3 for the most part) in a dedicated enclosure with proper RFI/EMI shielding should yield excellent results. This is precisely what I am doing with my lastest project. cliveb;198063 Wrote: > There's another difference between SB3 and Transporter which might have > an effect: the impact that RFI radiated by them and their power > supplies may have on analogue components in the system. This issue is > what much of this thread has been about. (If you want me to declare my > position on the subject: I lean towards the view that RFI is more > important that jitter). -- crooner Customized dual chassis "Super Squeezebox" EAD DSP-7000 MKIII DAC with HDCD VPI Scout with Benz Micro Glider M2 Audio Research PH3, SP16L and VS110 Vandersteen 2Ce signatures, 2W subwoofer. crooner's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=3379 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=34749 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] What mods on SB3 REALLY make a difference in reducing jitter?
Robin Bowes;197984 Wrote: > mswlogo wrote: > > Robin Bowes;197880 Wrote: > > >> Don't forget the DAC stage - quite a few variables there. Unless > >> you're considering the SB3->external DAC use-case? > > > > I don't care about the DAC, my speakers are Active. > > > > I agree there is tons of stuff you can play with in the analog > > domain. > > I presume by "active speakers" you mean "speakers with a digital > input"? > > In which case, your DAC is in your speakers, i.e. you *are* > considering > the SB3->external DAC use-case. > > Have you considered both the performance of the SB3->DAC interface, > and > the performance of the DAC itself as possible variables in the > digital->analogue chain? > > R. Correct I should have been clearer. I don't care about the DAC in the squeezebox. And yes I'm effectively running an External DAC (they are in the speakers). I didn't follow your last comment. I consider the Active speakers and Digital Preamp fixed. I will not change them. I would consider mods on SB3 to reduce jitter. Since the brand I use for active speakers and digital preamp uses switching power supplies and is designed for Home Theater as well as Audiophile that it would properly protect itself from any nastiness from other components within reason of course. -- mswlogo mswlogo's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=9090 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=34749 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] What mods on SB3 REALLY make a difference in reducing jitter?
325xi;197995 Wrote: > Most of the people that compared Transporter and SB3 connected to the > same outboard DAC reported audible difference. Assuming it is not > another hype, and taking into account that the only difference between > them is levels and spectrum of jitter, it can show that SB3 has a room > for improvement with audible results, IMHO... There's another difference between SB3 and Transporter which might have an effect: the impact that RFI radiated by them and their power supplies may have on analogue components in the system. This issue is what much of this thread has been about. (If you want me to declare my position on the subject: I lean towards the view that RFI is more important that jitter). -- cliveb Performers -> dozens of mixers and effects -> clipped/hypercompressed mastering -> you think a few extra ps of jitter matters? cliveb's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=348 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=34749 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] What mods on SB3 REALLY make a difference in reducing jitter?
Sure, the sound never changed, but it does seem to indicate that Lavry are about as believable and free of marketing bullshit as everyone else! -- Patrick Dixon www.at-tunes.co.uk Patrick Dixon's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=90 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=34749 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] What mods on SB3 REALLY make a difference in reducing jitter?
Patrick Dixon;198013 Wrote: > http://www.diyhifi.org/forums/viewtopic.php?t=1027 Summary of the "Lavry" issue: When the DA10 was first introduced the manual stated that is was not oversampling. A revision of the manual later removed that statement. It appears that the Lavry does indeed oversample. That's it. Nothing more. It still sounds as good as it ever did. -Ben -- Ben Diss 'SB3' (http://www.slimdevices.com/pi_squeezebox.html) -> 'Lavry DA10' (http://www.lavryengineering.com/productspage_da_10.html) -> 'BAT VK-31SE' (http://www.balanced.com/products/line/Vk-31SE/index.html) -> 'Halo A21' (http://www.parasound.com/halo/a21.php) -> 'B&W 803D' (http://www.bwspeakers.com/index.cfm/fuseaction/products.models/label/Model%20803D) Ben Diss's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=4289 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=34749 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] What mods on SB3 REALLY make a difference in reducing jitter?
325xi;197993 Wrote: > I think Dan Lavry is one of the engineers we can believe to what he's > saying...http://www.diyhifi.org/forums/viewtopic.php?t=1027 -- Patrick Dixon www.at-tunes.co.uk Patrick Dixon's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=90 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=34749 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] What mods on SB3 REALLY make a difference in reducing jitter?
cliveb;197367 Wrote: > So before you expend a great deal of effort to reduce the jitter of the > SB3's digital output, you need to verify that whatever levels of jitter > are already present are indeed audible. Most of the people that compared Transporter and SB3 connected to the same outboard DAC reported audible difference. Assuming it is not another hype, and taking into account that the only difference between them is levels and spectrum of jitter, it can show that SB3 has a room for improvement with audible results, IMHO... -- 325xi simaudio nova cdp >> simaudio moon i-5 >> revel performa m20 via acoustic zen matrix reference ii and acoustic zen satori (system is currently in dormant state... in storage) sb3 >> audioengine 5 -planned additions:... >> deq2496 >> lavry da-10 >>...- 325xi's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=5661 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=34749 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] What mods on SB3 REALLY make a difference in reducing jitter?
crooner;197355 Wrote: > The much lauded Lavry DAC also has a generic switcher PS. It's a shame > more and more manufacturers are resorting to this. There's interesting discussion on Lavry's own forums about his choice of PS, and he insists that his decision to use switcher was purely technical, and not cost-related. He says a switcher, as used in his device, interferes with the signal less then linear PSU would. I think Dan Lavry is one of the engineers we can believe to what he's saying... -- 325xi 325xi's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=5661 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=34749 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] What mods on SB3 REALLY make a difference in reducing jitter?
mswlogo wrote: > Robin Bowes;197880 Wrote: >> Don't forget the DAC stage - quite a few variables there. Unless >> you're considering the SB3->external DAC use-case? > > I don't care about the DAC, my speakers are Active. > > I agree there is tons of stuff you can play with in the analog > domain. I presume by "active speakers" you mean "speakers with a digital input"? In which case, your DAC is in your speakers, i.e. you *are* considering the SB3->external DAC use-case. Have you considered both the performance of the SB3->DAC interface, and the performance of the DAC itself as possible variables in the digital->analogue chain? R. ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] What mods on SB3 REALLY make a difference in reducing jitter?
"To date, they include hair loss, sickness, high blood-pressure, digestive and memory problems, severe headaches and dizziness". Check it out. I think jitter is the least of our worries!! Holy crow, do I need one of these nets over my head or over the system? Faraday where are you when I need some explanation. http://www.dailymail.co.uk/pages/live/femail/article.html?in_article_id=450995&in_page_id=1879 dan -- chinablues chinablues's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=7955 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=34749 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] What mods on SB3 REALLY make a difference in reducing jitter?
Just for the record, I have stopped responding to your threads because I feel extremely bad arguing with someone who obviously has hearing problem. Please don't make me start again. Have a nice day. tomjtx;197949 Wrote: > 95, Perhaps you should clarify your question because in it's present > form it is nonsensical. > -- 95bcwh 95bcwh's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=4358 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=34749 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] What mods on SB3 REALLY make a difference in reducing jitter?
95bcwh;197749 Wrote: > If all that matter is jitter..then why so many high end audio > manufacturers manage to co-exist? 95, Perhaps you should clarify your question because in it's present form it is nonsensical. Did you mean to state: (capitals indicate change) if all that matterS is jitter...then why DO so many high end manufacturers exist (delete co-exist) To co-exist implies living in harmony, agreement, cooperation etc. To co- exist implies symbiotic relationships. Were you trying to say that the existence of many high end companies offering different approaches implies that jitter couldn't be the only issue in digital audio? That would be faulty reasoning because even if jitter were the only issue there may still be different solutions and different implementaions of solutions by different companies. Each company may feel their solution to jitter reduction is superior. Therefore, even if jitter were the only problem in digital audio we would still see numerous companies offering numerous solutions. -- tomjtx tomjtx's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=7449 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=34749 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] What mods on SB3 REALLY make a difference in reducing jitter?
Robin Bowes;197880 Wrote: > mswlogo wrote: > > 95bcwh;197749 Wrote: > >> If all that matter is jitter..then why so many high end audio > >> manufacturers manage to co-exist? > > > > There is the original data and jitter (timing). > > > > What else is there? > > > > All the computer folk (my self included) assumed a CD was just bits > and > > ignored timing. Ok, we all agree timing is a factor. How much is > still > > in question but I think we agree timing matters. That's it. There is > > nothing else the CD contains other than data and the rate they > should > > be transmitted. EAC and frends take care of extracting the bits. > > SqueezeBox just needs to deliver them as close to 44.1Khz spaced > evenly > > (low jitter). > > Don't forget the DAC stage - quite a few variables there. Unless > you're > considering the SB3->external DAC use-case? > > R. I don't care about the DAC, my speakers are Active. I agree there is tons of stuff you can play with in the analog domain. -- mswlogo mswlogo's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=9090 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=34749 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] What mods on SB3 REALLY make a difference in reducing jitter?
mswlogo wrote: > 95bcwh;197749 Wrote: >> If all that matter is jitter..then why so many high end audio >> manufacturers manage to co-exist? > > There is the original data and jitter (timing). > > What else is there? > > All the computer folk (my self included) assumed a CD was just bits and > ignored timing. Ok, we all agree timing is a factor. How much is still > in question but I think we agree timing matters. That's it. There is > nothing else the CD contains other than data and the rate they should > be transmitted. EAC and frends take care of extracting the bits. > SqueezeBox just needs to deliver them as close to 44.1Khz spaced evenly > (low jitter). Don't forget the DAC stage - quite a few variables there. Unless you're considering the SB3->external DAC use-case? R. ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] What mods on SB3 REALLY make a difference in reducing jitter?
95bcwh;197749 Wrote: > If all that matter is jitter..then why so many high end audio > manufacturers manage to co-exist? There is the original data and jitter (timing). What else is there? All the computer folk (my self included) assumed a CD was just bits and ignored timing. Ok, we all agree timing is a factor. How much is still in question but I think we agree timing matters. That's it. There is nothing else the CD contains other than data and the rate they should be transmitted. EAC and frends take care of extracting the bits. SqueezeBox just needs to deliver them as close to 44.1Khz spaced evenly (low jitter). -- mswlogo mswlogo's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=9090 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=34749 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] What mods on SB3 REALLY make a difference in reducing jitter?
mswlogo;197289 Wrote: > And the fact that all that matters is jitter. > If all that matter is jitter..then why so many high end audio manufacturers manage to co-exist? -- 95bcwh 95bcwh's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=4358 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=34749 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] What mods on SB3 REALLY make a difference in reducing jitter?
Here's the output from the standard (UK spec "Unifive USK300520") SB3 power supply. Measurement bandwidth is probably only around 20MHz or so, my scope probe is rubbish and desperately needs upgrading. Load resistance is about 11 Ohms, so we're drawing a little under half an amp. Noise typically gets worse with increasing load. [image: http://www.cawte.nildram.co.uk/Jitter/KF8L2618.JPG] So, we see a switching frequency of about 200kHz, and about 10mV p-p of noise. That's actually remarkably good for a cheap little 'wall wart', though it's some way from being an audiophile-grade level of performance, and might explain why some people claim an upgrade is worthwhile. -- AndyC_772 AndyC_772's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=10472 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=34749 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] What mods on SB3 REALLY make a difference in reducing jitter?
slimkid;197718 Wrote: > So, why else in the world, would anybody want to invest time and money > in modifying anything? Even for hobby or learning purposes, how can one > know he did it right if one can't tell by listening to it? I'm not trying to dissuade anyone from doing mods if they want to. But the OP seemed to be in danger of assuming that jitter is the thing that needs to be addressed, and I just wanted to point him at some tests that suggest he might be chasing the wrong bogey-man. -- cliveb Performers -> dozens of mixers and effects -> clipped/hypercompressed mastering -> you think a few extra ps of jitter matters? cliveb's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=348 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=34749 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] What mods on SB3 REALLY make a difference in reducing jitter?
tyler_durden;197708 Wrote: > Consensus among whom? I certainly don't agree with this. Yes, it is a > possibility, but it is easily tested, and has been tested found not to > be an issue with the SB3 and its stock PS. The SB3 has a relatively > high powered radio transmitter in the SB3, as well as an internal > switching supply to provide HV for the display. If you think a little > 6W switching power supply located 6' away from the SB3 is going to muck > things up worse than the internal switcher and radio transmitter, you > have a very poorly developed sense of proportion. > > > > A large amount of noise on the DC output would be easily visible on an > oscilloscope. I'll hook my scope up and try to take a picture and post > it. > > As I stated before, a 6W power supply can't possibly put a large amount > of noise anywhere. It barely puts out a "large amount" of DC power! > And yes, the amount of EMI possible IS a function of the capacity of > the power supply. A very high power supply is likely to radiate more > than a wimpy little 6W power supply. > > > > High frequency noise (if there was any) is easily filtered by small > capacitors and ferrite beads, and even by the inductance of the power > cable leading to the SB3. > > While we're speculating about possible ways to muck up the sound, what > do you guys use to protect against meteorites? One of those might > REALLY screw up the sound! > > TD This is so off the mark I don't know where to start. A tiny neon bulb at the end of its life acts as a fantastically good RF transmitter. It's consuming almost no power but broadcasting RF rubbish which can interfere with TV, Radio etc. Obviously you must be lucky enough to have your gear inside a Faraday cage...(not). -- Phil Leigh Phil Leigh's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=85 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=34749 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] What mods on SB3 REALLY make a difference in reducing jitter?
cliveb;197367 Wrote: > OK, you sound like someone who's not interested in doing any mods if > they don't make an audible improvement... So, why else in the world, would anybody want to invest time and money in modifying anything? Even for hobby or learning purposes, how can one know he did it right if one can't tell by listening to it? -- slimkid The sound stage will open up, bass will tighten and the imaging will improve. DVD performance will also increase substantially. slimkid's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=8881 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=34749 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] What mods on SB3 REALLY make a difference in reducing jitter?
tyler_durden;197708 Wrote: > A large amount of noise on the DC output would be easily visible on an > oscilloscope. I'll hook my scope up and try to take a picture and post > it. Race you :) > As I stated before, a 6W power supply can't possibly put a large amount > of noise anywhere. It barely puts out a "large amount" of DC power! Oh, please, do the maths. The total signal power on a line level output is, say, 2V rms across 1kOhm, which is 4 milliwatts. How much power do you think might be needed to cause audible interference on that? A microwatt? > High frequency noise (if there was any) is easily filtered by small > capacitors and ferrite beads, and even by the inductance of the power > cable leading to the SB3. My own experience would tend to suggest otherwise - SMPS switching noise is too low impedance for small caps to help much, and too high in frequency for big ones. Lossy (ie. resistive) ferrite beads seem to work best provided the voltage drop across them isn't a problem. A higher Q inductor runs the risk of just ringing like a bell. -- AndyC_772 AndyC_772's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=10472 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=34749 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] What mods on SB3 REALLY make a difference in reducing jitter?
crooner;197618 Wrote: > > The consensus is that any RFI causing interruption of AM reception will > most likely affect the low level audio circuits. The audibility of this > will depend on the quality of your playback equipment and your own > ears. I particularly don't take any chances with this. Consensus among whom? I certainly don't agree with this. Yes, it is a possibility, but it is easily tested, and has been tested found not to be an issue with the SB3 and its stock PS. The SB3 has a relatively high powered radio transmitter in the SB3, as well as an internal switching supply to provide HV for the display. If you think a little 6W switching power supply located 6' away from the SB3 is going to muck things up worse than the internal switcher and radio transmitter, you have a very poorly developed sense of proportion. AndyC_772;197632 Wrote: > > So, it's perfectly possible for a PSU to be fully compliant to those > standards, but to put out a lot of hash on the mains supply right > through the audio band, and also to produce large amounts of noise on > the DC output provided it doesn't radiate too much over 30MHz A large amount of noise on the DC output would be easily visible on an oscilloscope. I'll hook my scope up and try to take a picture and post it. As I stated before, a 6W power supply can't possibly put a large amount of noise anywhere. It barely puts out a "large amount" of DC power! And yes, the amount of EMI possible IS a function of the capacity of the power supply. A very high power supply is likely to radiate more than a wimpy little 6W power supply. AndyC_772;197632 Wrote: > > If it causes sound quality problems with the SB3, it'll be because of > low impedance, high frequency switching noise on the DC output, which > is hard to filter and therefore makes it through to the internal power > rails. High frequency noise (if there was any) is easily filtered by small capacitors and ferrite beads, and even by the inductance of the power cable leading to the SB3. While we're speculating about possible ways to muck up the sound, what do you guys use to protect against meteorites? One of those might REALLY screw up the sound! TD -- tyler_durden tyler_durden's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=2701 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=34749 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] What mods on SB3 REALLY make a difference in reducing jitter?
A cheap SMPS usually does put out a lot of noise, both on its output and on its input. CE (and, to a lesser extent, FCC) regulations place limits on: - the amount of energy radiated off the system as a whole between frequencies of 30MHz and 1GHz; - the amount of noise conducted back up the mains supply, between frequencies of 150kHz and 30MHz. So, it's perfectly possible for a PSU to be fully compliant to those standards, but to put out a lot of hash on the mains supply right through the audio band, and also to produce large amounts of noise on the DC output provided it doesn't radiate too much over 30MHz. The idea that it won't produce much noise because it's efficient is, I'm afraid, rubbish. The efficiency just means it won't get all that hot - nothing more. If it causes sound quality problems with the SB3, it'll be because of low impedance, high frequency switching noise on the DC output, which is hard to filter and therefore makes it through to the internal power rails. -- AndyC_772 AndyC_772's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=10472 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=34749 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] What mods on SB3 REALLY make a difference in reducing jitter?
Actually, using a portable AM radio to spot RFI sources is well documented. It is the simplest way to determine this type of interference. I think your comments about AM listening preferences came a little heavy handed. No one is talking about using the radio for entertainment purposes. The consensus is that any RFI causing interruption of AM reception will most likely affect the low level audio circuits. The audibility of this will depend on the quality of your playback equipment and your own ears. I particularly don't take any chances with this. -- crooner Customized dual chassis "Super Squeezebox" EAD DSP-7000 MKIII DAC with HDCD VPI Scout with Benz Micro Glider M2 Audio Research PH3, SP16L and VS110 Vandersteen 2Ce signatures, 2W subwoofer. crooner's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=3379 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=34749 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] What mods on SB3 REALLY make a difference in reducing jitter?
crooner;197570 Wrote: > Well... get a portable AM radio and place it close to the SB's Unifive > SMPS. Reception will be impossible. What does putting a radio next to the power supply have to do with the sound produced by an SB3? Put your preamp next to the transformer of your power amp and it will hum. I'll bet the SB3 itself will interfere with radio reception if you put the radio next to the SB3. So what? As the old jokes goes,"Doctor, it hurts when I do this" to which the doctor replies "don't do that!" If you have a tuner sitting next to the SB3 power supply and you must listen to Paul Harvey, Rush Limbaugh, or big-haired weirdos begging for money because God needs it, then replace the power supply. Don't expect it to make the SB3 sound better, except by comparison of program content. TD -- tyler_durden tyler_durden's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=2701 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=34749 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] What mods on SB3 REALLY make a difference in reducing jitter?
For what its worth, I've got switching supplies all throughout my house including one that near for my little XM radio player (myfi). None of them put out anyway near as much RF noise as this SB3 switching PS. Listening to AM is impossible. The internal PS in the SB3 are also noisy but not nearly as bad. The AM freq is now listenable. The SB3 is a crappy designed switching power supply that should be replaced! -- Max F Max F's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=9464 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=34749 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] What mods on SB3 REALLY make a difference in reducing jitter?
crooner;197570 Wrote: > Well... get a portable AM radio and place it close to the SB's Unifive > SMPS. Reception will be impossible. > > The FCC rules part 15C is very relaxed about RFI interference, > unfortunately. This is the same FCC that also approved broadband over > power lines, blacking out all the HF spectrum used for ham > communications. Easy to get the picture here.. > > Audio signals are very delicate. A moving coil compatible phono stage > (which is part of my system) is particularly sensitive to RFI pickup. > Because of this, I'd avoid any switching kind of power supply. Of > course, your mileage may vary. Quite. The stock PSU is an RF generator. Big Time. My AM radios will not tolerate it. Changing to a linear (any one) fixes that one. -- Phil Leigh Phil Leigh's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=85 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=34749 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] What mods on SB3 REALLY make a difference in reducing jitter?
Well... get a portable AM radio and place it close to the SB's Unifive SMPS. Reception will be impossible. The FCC rules part 15C is very relaxed about RFI interference, unfortunately. This is the same FCC that also approved broadband over power lines, blacking out all the HF spectrum used for ham communications. Easy to get the picture here.. Audio signals are very delicate. A moving coil compatible phono stage (which is part of my system) is particularly sensitive to RFI pickup. Because of this, I'd avoid any switching kind of power supply. Of course, your mileage may vary. -- crooner Customized dual chassis "Super Squeezebox" EAD DSP-7000 MKIII DAC with HDCD VPI Scout with Benz Micro Glider M2 Audio Research PH3, SP16L and VS110 Vandersteen 2Ce signatures, 2W subwoofer. crooner's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=3379 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=34749 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] What mods on SB3 REALLY make a difference in reducing jitter?
crooner;197353 Wrote: > Well, the Unifive SMPS has a floating ground for one thing. The tiny > plastic encapsulated design is not grounded to the AC line. Some > parasitic noise is to be expected of this. > > Also, given the small size no actual shielding is employed to reduce > RFI emissions. > So you're saying you don't have numbers... The PS meets regulatory requirements for EMI, shielded or not, or they couldn't ship it with the SB. Are you concerned about RF radiated into the SB from the power supply, noise put on the power lines finding its way into other equipment, or noise on the DC output of the supply? Radiated power would be very low since the supply can only supply 5V at 1.2A. It is probably 90% efficient which means that power input is only about 60mW higher than power out. Most of the excess power goes into heat, so there's very little left to radiate into other electronics. All this silliness about power supplies is getting old. The external switcher, remote from the SB as it is, is far less likely to cause problems than the SB internal switcher that provides HV to the display AND feeds the analog circuit regulators. Slimdevices own measurements have proven it. The horse is dead already. You can stop beating it anytime now. TD -- tyler_durden tyler_durden's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=2701 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=34749 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] What mods on SB3 REALLY make a difference in reducing jitter?
In my case, the modded Elpac power supply made only a subtle difference. But, I have two power conditioners daisy chained with good power cords (Furman Power Factor Pro -> Blue Circle Music Ring Balanced Power conditioner). Once, I got the Bolder digital mods the difference was clearly audible. I did not have to do any A/B or any measurements.I am a very cost conscious buyer (aka cheapskate :-) for eg I use a Panny XR55 receiver as the dac/amp) when it comes to spending. But I feel the $350 or so I spent on the mods for the SB is the best I have ever spent in an audio purchase. -- SoftwireEngineer SoftwireEngineer's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=7000 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=34749 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] What mods on SB3 REALLY make a difference in reducing jitter?
opaqueice;197440 Wrote: > Evidence... wouldn't that be nice! > > One thing I'd like to see is one single controlled listening test > showing an audible difference from changing the power supply. So far, > we have two camps - people that don't hear any difference, and people > that say the difference is so obvious it's totally unnecessary to do > any such test. I've heard that second claim many times on internet > fora, and it's often false. > > Incidentally, if you really want to remove jitter, buy a Benchmark > DAC1. According to both measurements, Benchmark engineers, and > listening tests, it is totally immune to input jitter (at least so long > as it's not so bad it causes bit errors). I would consider a DAC, but my DACs are in my speakers. In fact I have a seperate amp and DAC for each and every driver. Same speakers that have Switching power supplies :). -- mswlogo mswlogo's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=9090 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=34749 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] What mods on SB3 REALLY make a difference in reducing jitter?
I recently purchased a used EAD DSP-7000 III DAC. This retailed for $2500 in the late 1990s. Like the newer Benchmark, it claims to reduce or eliminate jitter by a propietary circuit called "digital flywheel". It also decodes HDCD, which most current DACs lack. The output stage is Class A using high speed Analog Devices AD841 Op-Amps. Nice touch as well. -- crooner Customized dual chassis "Super Squeezebox" EAD DSP-7000 MKIII DAC with HDCD VPI Scout with Benz Micro Glider M2 Audio Research PH3, SP16L and VS110 Vandersteen 2Ce signatures, 2W subwoofer. crooner's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=3379 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=34749 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] What mods on SB3 REALLY make a difference in reducing jitter?
mswlogo;197423 Wrote: > Thanks for that info. I will do mods, but I don't want to do them just > for the sake of it or just because they are cheap. I'd like a little > bit of evidence. Evidence... wouldn't that be nice! One thing I'd like to see is one single controlled listening test showing an audible difference from changing the power supply. So far, we have two camps - people that don't hear any difference, and people that say the difference is so obvious it's totally unnecessary to do any such test. I've heard that second claim many times on internet fora, and it's almost always false. Incidentally, if you really want to remove jitter, buy a Benchmark DAC1. According to both measurements, Benchmark engineers, and listening tests, it is totally immune to input jitter (at least so long as it's not so bad it causes bit errors). -- opaqueice opaqueice's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=4234 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=34749 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] What mods on SB3 REALLY make a difference in reducing jitter?
cliveb;197367 Wrote: > OK, you sound like someone who's not interested in doing any mods if > they don't make an audible improvement. So before you expend a great > deal of effort to reduce the jitter of the SB3's digital output, you > need to verify that whatever levels of jitter are already present are > indeed audible. > > There have been a number of well-conducted blind listening tests that > seem to suggest that the effects of jitter do not become audible until > the jitter is very high. For example, Benjamin & Gannon's AES paper > (preprint 4826) "Theoretical and Audible Effects of Jitter on Digital > Audio Quality" concluded that jitter becomes audible at about 10 ns for > a 20kHz frequency, and about 100 ns at 4kHz. They found that jitter > below 20 ns was undetectable on any music material they tried. 20 ns is > massively greater than the jitter levels of the SB3. Food for thought. Thanks for that info. I will do mods, but I don't want to do them just for the sake of it or just because they are cheap. I'd like a little bit of evidence. -- mswlogo mswlogo's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=9090 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=34749 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] What mods on SB3 REALLY make a difference in reducing jitter?
jhm731;197354 Wrote: > FYI3- power supply noise is the biggest cause of jitter in digital > circuits. WTF?! What gave you that idea? What about transmission line effects, crosstalk, ground bounce, PLL instability or data-dependency? I'll grant that PSU noise is a factor, but to state that it's the biggest cause of jitter, without qualification, is misleading bordering on irresponsible. In a break with the usual Internet tradition, I'm going to back that up with some actual measurements. Here are pictures of the SPDIF outputs from the SB3, and from a Marantz CD63 CD player: SB3: [image: http://www.cawte.nildram.co.uk/Jitter/sb3.jpg] CD63: [image: http://www.cawte.nildram.co.uk/Jitter/cd63.jpg] Hopefully if nothing else, that puts the quality of the SB3's SPDIF output into perspective! The actual edges are actually a bit sharper than shown - a limitation of my scope's bandwidth - but I actually struggled to measure any jitter on it at all. Compare and contrast that with the output from the CD63, which suffers dreadful data-dependent jitter - most likely caused by penny pinching on a capacitor in the digital output stage. THIS is a machine on which jitter-reducing mods might well have a clearly audible effect. (That's not to say that the SB3 wouldn't benefit too - but it should now be obvious as to why any improvements are going to be minimal compared to the gains which might be made by modding other source components). -- AndyC_772 AndyC_772's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=10472 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=34749 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] What mods on SB3 REALLY make a difference in reducing jitter?
mswlogo;197289 Wrote: > After seeing Sean Adams post that power supply (on his setup anyway) > made no difference in jitter. And the fact that all that matters is > jitter, since the SqueezeBox as far as I tested is bitperfect. > > I don't want to bother doing mods that are based on just folks opinions > on listening because most have been discredited by measurement and make > no sense. Like folks saying Optical is better than coax (maybe some > folks ears like a little jitter). OK, you sound like someone who's not interested in doing any mods if they don't make an audible improvement. So before you expend a great deal of effort to reduce the jitter of the SB3's digital output, you need to verify that whatever levels of jitter are already present are indeed audible. There have been a number of well-conducted blind listening tests that seem to suggest that the effects of jitter do not become audible until the jitter is very high. For example, Benjamin & Gannon's AES paper (preprint 4826) "Theoretical and Audible Effects of Jitter on Digital Audio Quality" concluded that jitter becomes audible at about 10 ns for a 20kHz frequency, and about 100 ns at 4kHz. They found that jitter below 20 ns was undetectable on any music material they tried. 20 ns is massively greater than the jitter levels of the SB3. Food for thought. -- cliveb Performers -> dozens of mixers and effects -> clipped/hypercompressed mastering -> you think a few extra ps of jitter matters? cliveb's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=348 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=34749 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] What mods on SB3 REALLY make a difference in reducing jitter?
jhm731;197354 Wrote: > power supply noise is the biggest cause of jitter in digital circuits. This last sentence got me thinking: the main difference between the SB2 and SB3 is the use of a switching supply for the digital circuit in the older model. Sean mentioned the SB3 having slightly better jitter specs. I've listened to both and haven't discerned any audible differences. But it still bothers me to have a switcher in there... -- crooner Customized dual chassis "Super Squeezebox" EAD DSP-7000 MKIII DAC with HDCD VPI Scout with Benz Micro Glider M2 Audio Research PH3, SP16L and VS110 Vandersteen 2Ce signatures, 2W subwoofer. crooner's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=3379 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=34749 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] What mods on SB3 REALLY make a difference in reducing jitter?
The much lauded Lawry DAC also has a generic switcher PS. It's a shame more and more manufacturers are resorting to this. And good to know, Meridian's SMPS are subpar. A shame given the prices they sell for... -- crooner Customized dual chassis "Super Squeezebox" EAD DSP-7000 MKIII DAC with HDCD VPI Scout with Benz Micro Glider M2 Audio Research PH3, SP16L and VS110 Vandersteen 2Ce signatures, 2W subwoofer. crooner's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=3379 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=34749 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] What mods on SB3 REALLY make a difference in reducing jitter?
mswlogo;197341 Wrote: > My preamp is considered very high end by some Meridian 861 (which has a > switching power supply), my speakers are are also considered very high > end by some Meridian DSP 5500's (each with there own swicthing power > supply), and in total I probably have about 12 other switching power > supplies. I'm not about to hack these components apart to remove the > switching power supplies. I trust the company that built them knew what > they were doing and designed the circuits to properly handle any high > frequency switching. > > This same company puts triple buffers to reduce jitter. But they admit > you can never get rid of all jitter. It's best resolved at the source. FYI1-Others have upgraded the SMPS units in their Meridians with PSUs from Mauimods.com and have experienced a big improvements, but you obviously have a closed mind and blind faith. FYI2- Meridan uses SMPS units because they're cheap and conform with European power supply directives, but that doesn't mean they can't be improved. FYI3- power supply noise is the biggest cause of jitter in digital circuits. Happy listening. -- jhm731 jhm731's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=7685 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=34749 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] What mods on SB3 REALLY make a difference in reducing jitter?
tyler_durden;197349 Wrote: > Do you have any numbers or are you assuming this based on the probable > low cost of the supply? > > TD It's obvious the Unifive SMPS supplied with the SB, is quite inexpensive. The elimination of the costly power transformer accounts for the lower cost compared with the traditional linear design. OTOH, I'm assuming Meridian's (quite a respectable hi-fi manufacturer) power supply is much more elaborate. Which makes sense given the performance requirements. -- crooner Customized dual chassis "Super Squeezebox" EAD DSP-7000 MKIII DAC with HDCD VPI Scout with Benz Micro Glider M2 Audio Research PH3, SP16L and VS110 Vandersteen 2Ce signatures, 2W subwoofer. crooner's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=3379 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=34749 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] What mods on SB3 REALLY make a difference in reducing jitter?
crooner;197343 Wrote: > > I understand that a switching mode power supply can be made reasonably > quiet, but it's not cheap. And be certain this is not the case with the > tiny PS included with the SB. Do you have any numbers or are you assuming this based on the probable low cost of the supply? TD -- tyler_durden tyler_durden's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=2701 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=34749 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] What mods on SB3 REALLY make a difference in reducing jitter?
You are not comparing a power supply in a very expensive unit to the 99 cent adapter that comes with the SB, aren't you? I understand that a switching mode power supply can be made reasonably quiet, but it's not cheap. And be certain this is not the case with the tiny PS included with the SB. OTOH, you'd be surprised at the poor shielding some very expensive high-end units exhibit. There's even one audiophile school of thought claiming RFI shielding affects sound quality (i.e. Kimber and Nordost cables). -- crooner Customized dual chassis "Super Squeezebox" EAD DSP-7000 MKIII DAC with HDCD VPI Scout with Benz Micro Glider M2 Audio Research PH3, SP16L and VS110 Vandersteen 2Ce signatures, 2W subwoofer. crooner's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=3379 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=34749 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] What mods on SB3 REALLY make a difference in reducing jitter?
crooner;197338 Wrote: > Thing is that the RFI generated from the switching power supply will > creep to other components, and this is not good. > > The low frequency RFI generated by the switching supply is much more > troublesome than the radiated 2.4 GHz signal from the internal miniPCI > Wi-Fi card, in my experience... My preamp is considered very high end by some Meridian 861 (which has a switching power supply), my speakers are are also considered very high end by some Meridian DSP 5500's (each with there own swicthing power supply), and in total I probably have about 12 other switching power supplies. I'm not about to hack these components apart to remove the switching power supplies. I trust the company that built them knew what they were doing and designed the circuits to properly handle any high frequency switching. This same company puts triple buffers to reduce jitter. But they admit you can never get rid of all jitter. It's best resolved at the source. -- mswlogo mswlogo's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=9090 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=34749 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] What mods on SB3 REALLY make a difference in reducing jitter?
Thing is that the RFI generated from the switching power supply will creep to other components, and this is not good. RFI itself might introduce noise to the digital data stream, causing extra jitter. -- crooner Customized dual chassis "Super Squeezebox" EAD DSP-7000 MKIII DAC with HDCD VPI Scout with Benz Micro Glider M2 Audio Research PH3, SP16L and VS110 Vandersteen 2Ce signatures, 2W subwoofer. crooner's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=3379 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=34749 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] What mods on SB3 REALLY make a difference in reducing jitter?
I've run several tests recording the digital output of my Preamp/DAC every bit is getting through perfectly from the SB3. DTS perfectly. Who cares about imperfect waveforms as long as they are being interpreted perfectly. All that is left is jitter !!! Maybe some devices downstream of your SB3 is dropping bits due to the stock wallwart vs some highend one. But mine is not. If a 1 is a little squarer or a 0 a little flatter who cares. As long as the receiver is reading them correctly. You got data and timing, that's it. Others may not be convinced but I am. The SB3 transmits the data perfectly. It could be a little better on jitter though. SeanAdams clearly showed the power supplies made zippo difference on jitter. Can someone state a measurable effect on data accuaracy or jitter using a better power supply? Or do you just go with all the hype? I certainly beleive the connector can help jitter by getting a better 75 ohm impedance match. Any comment on the other mods? -- mswlogo mswlogo's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=9090 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=34749 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] What mods on SB3 REALLY make a difference in reducing jitter?
JJZolx;197297 Wrote: > RFI is a very real problem with the 99 cent wall wart supplied. A > better power supply is mandatory, IMO, regardless of whether it has any > effect on jitter. Absolutely! I didn't mention the PS because it's pretty much mandatory to replace it with a linear. RFI/EMI can be a problem. In the analog domain, it translates into audible noise. However, for digital signals the extra noise will probably be translated into jitter problems. I am experimenting with a special material called ERS from Stillpoints. Is a cloth with RFI/EMI filtration properties. Carefully appplied in critical areas, it should yield noticeable improvements... -- crooner Customized dual chassis "Super Squeezebox" EAD DSP-7000 MKIII DAC with HDCD VPI Scout with Benz Micro Glider M2 Audio Research PH3, SP16L and VS110 Vandersteen 2Ce signatures, 2W subwoofer. crooner's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=3379 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=34749 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] What mods on SB3 REALLY make a difference in reducing jitter?
mswlogo;197289 Wrote: > And the fact that all that matters is jitter, since the SqueezeBox as > far as I tested is bitperfect. All that jitters is not, err, jold... Time has told me that whatever anyone says is the only thing, they are always wrong. When they say that it is even the main thing, time tells that they are usually wrong. Relax and put on some music. If you're not happy with the sound of your system, be open as to the potential solutions :) Adam -- adamslim SB3 into Derek Shek d2, Shanling CDT-100, Rotel RT-990BX, Esoteric Audio Research 859, Living Voice Auditorium IIs, Nordost and Anti-cables http://www.last.fm/user/AdamSlim/ adamslim's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=7355 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=34749 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] What mods on SB3 REALLY make a difference in reducing jitter?
mswlogo;197289 Wrote: > And the fact that all that matters is jitter RFI is a very real problem with the 99 cent wall wart supplied. A better power supply is mandatory, IMO, regardless of whether it has any effect on jitter. -- JJZolx Jim JJZolx's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=10 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=34749 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] What mods on SB3 REALLY make a difference in reducing jitter?
I would go for the BNC connectors and a 1:1 digital transformer at the SPDIF output. This would measurably reduce jitter. -- crooner Customized dual chassis "Super Squeezebox" EAD DSP-7000 MKIII DAC with HDCD VPI Scout with Benz Micro Glider M2 Audio Research PH3, SP16L and VS110 Vandersteen 2Ce signatures, 2W subwoofer. crooner's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=3379 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=34749 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
[SlimDevices: Audiophiles] What mods on SB3 REALLY make a difference in reducing jitter?
After seeing Sean Adams post that power supply (on his setup anyway) made no difference in jitter. And the fact that all that matters is jitter, since the SqueezeBox as far as I tested is bitperfect. I don't want to bother doing mods that are based on just folks opinions on listening because most have been discredited by measurement and make no sense. Like folks saying Optical is better than coax (maybe some folks ears like a little jitter). I'm certainly willing to listen to comments based on listening but I've seen so many times that it was completely wrong. Any way what mods are truly helpful in reducing jitter? Has anyone measured the effect of jitter on? 1) Removing Wifi Card 2) Using BNC connector instead of RCA 3) Lifting clock (used for low data rate) 4) Changing power supply 5) Using Wifi instead of wired (e-net wires have tons of nasty stuff on them). Any consensus based on measurements done here and from reviews that can clearly conclude doing mod x is a must? Thanks for any pointers. -- mswlogo mswlogo's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=9090 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=34749 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
