Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Earthworks M30 vs ECM 8000 side-by-side test for Inguz DRC
Here is muski's calibrations file (vertical axis in dB, horizontal is log base 10 of frequency). The second plot is smoothed by averaging over each consecutive set of 10 values. It looks very roughly like the plot Behringer gives here, in the specs: http://www.behringerdownload.de/ECM8000/ECM8000_C_Specs.pdf +---+ |Filename: ECM8000 plots.jpg| |Download: http://forums.slimdevices.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=3469| +---+ -- opaqueice opaqueice's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=4234 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=38758 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Earthworks M30 vs ECM 8000 side-by-side test for Inguz DRC
Chinanico;231329 Wrote: > I might try that. Actually I was thinking, as more and more people get > their ECM8000 calibrated, but others don't... (or can't, for me in > Shanghai I wouldn't know where to go), would it be possible to build so > kind of "database" of the calibration files and compare them. Maybe we > will see that there are some patterns that could be used to extrapolate > a theoretical "average calibration file" that we could use by default if > we didn't have had calibration (and that might better the default from > DRC)... or maybe we will see that there is no way but to have a > calibration. > > I know some of you guys already published files, but we could start to > collect them more formally, if you agree. Here is mine... +---+ |Filename: ecm8000cal.txt | |Download: http://forums.slimdevices.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=3468| +---+ -- muski SB3->Bryston BP25DA->Bryston 4B SST->Wilson Watt Puppy 7 Transporter via XLR->Headroom Max Balanced Headphone Amp->Balanced AKG701s & HD650s muski's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=3670 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=38758 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Earthworks M30 vs ECM 8000 side-by-side test for Inguz DRC
Recorded sweeps using both of the Tascam US-122L and the Sound Devices USBPre audio interfaces today. The Earthworks M30 mic remained in exactly the same spot. The Octave plots MRFDWSmoothed.jpg and PRFDWSmoothed-1-6.jpg are shown below. +---+ |Filename: AI-PRFDWSmoothed-1-6.jpg | |Download: http://forums.slimdevices.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=3465| +---+ -- muski SB3->Bryston BP25DA->Bryston 4B SST->Wilson Watt Puppy 7 Transporter via XLR->Headroom Max Balanced Headphone Amp->Balanced AKG701s & HD650s muski's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=3670 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=38758 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Earthworks M30 vs ECM 8000 side-by-side test for Inguz DRC
nuhi;231129 Wrote: > If you find the time please try this (attached), I made it by looking at > the difference in your graphs between the m30 and ecm. I might try that. Actually I was thinking, as more and more people get their ECM8000 calibrated, but others don't... (or can't, for me in Shanghai I wouldn't know where to go), would it be possible to build so kind of "database" of the calibration files and compare them. Maybe we will see that there are some patterns that could be used to extrapolate a theoretical "average calibration file" that we could use by default if we didn't have had calibration (and that might better the default from DRC)... or maybe we will see that there is no way but to have a calibration. I know some of you guys already published files, but we could start to collect them more formally, if you agree. -- Chinanico CEC TL51X / SB3 > Audiomat Maestro > Jeff Rowland Concentra 2 > System Audio SA2K Chinanico's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=12794 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=38758 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Earthworks M30 vs ECM 8000 side-by-side test for Inguz DRC
Then the ECM8k correction file isn't good. For example it has 10.5dB attenuation in the 10khz area while your new graphs show that 6 is enough. Maybe it would be better if you use strong correction, maybe there was some approximation by the normalization. If you find the time please try this (attached), I made it by looking at the difference in your graphs between the m30 and ecm. +---+ |Filename: ecm8000-ng-p5.txt| |Download: http://forums.slimdevices.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=3458| +---+ -- nuhi nuhi's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=10571 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=38758 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Earthworks M30 vs ECM 8000 side-by-side test for Inguz DRC
> Sorry what do you mean by that, didn't you say that the mic cal files > weren't applied? The mic cal files were indeed applied to create the two filters. The M30 mic cal file was not applied to the measured results shown above, but as the M30 is reasonably flat it shouldn't make much difference. So, in summary, the mic cal files were applied to create the filters, but not to measure their effect. -- muski SB3->Bryston BP25DA->Bryston 4B SST->Wilson Watt Puppy 7 Transporter via XLR->Headroom Max Balanced Headphone Amp->Balanced AKG701s & HD650s muski's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=3670 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=38758 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Earthworks M30 vs ECM 8000 side-by-side test for Inguz DRC
muski;231024 Wrote: > > It is interesting that the ECM8000 plot, though not without some > issues, does looks flat-ish (ie at least it doesn't have the huge hump > like the ECM8000's mic freq reponse plot). > There are 6dB jumps all over the high frequencies, that's too much (3dB is 2 times louder). It looks even worse because of all the problems in the lower frequencies. But that is due to the correction filter options probably. Looks worse but I bet it sounds better. muski;231024 Wrote: > > This suggests that the mic cal files are correctly processed in drc? Sorry what do you mean by that, didn't you say that the mic cal files weren't applied? -- nuhi nuhi's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=10571 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=38758 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Earthworks M30 vs ECM 8000 side-by-side test for Inguz DRC
muski;231024 Wrote: > > I am surprised by the phase behavior of both filters in the low freqs. > That phase response may not be as bad as it looks. The point is that if a filter is linear phase it's perfect (just as good as 0 phase shift), because linear phase is simply a time delay. That's because if f(t) = sin(\omega t + \phi), when \phi -> \phi + c \omega for some c that doesn't depend on \omega, it's the same thing as shifting t -> t + c. On a plot like that linear phase means a line of a constant slope, but of course the lines will wrap around from -180 to 180. That's more or less what it looks like at least up to 2kHz or so. And I assume this plot has been smoothed, which might account for the apparent change at high frequency. -- opaqueice opaqueice's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=4234 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=38758 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Earthworks M30 vs ECM 8000 side-by-side test for Inguz DRC
I used the "Sweep (with EQ in L channel)" test tone and, using the M30 microphone recorded sweeps for both the M30_normal_flat and ECM8000_normal_flat filters. Below are the plots of "Impulse_Response_Measured" and phase response (1/6 octave smoothing). Since the M30 is pretty close to flat even (see the first post), the fact that these are not mic cal adjusted shouldn't make much difference. It is interesting that the ECM8000 plot, though not without some issues, does looks flat-ish (ie at least it doesn't have the huge hump like the ECM8000's mic freq reponse plot). This suggests that the mic cal files are correctly processed in drc? I am surprised by the phase behavior of both filters in the low freqs. muski +---+ |Filename: U-PRFDWSmoothed-1-6.jpg | |Download: http://forums.slimdevices.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=3454| +---+ -- muski SB3->Bryston BP25DA->Bryston 4B SST->Wilson Watt Puppy 7 Transporter via XLR->Headroom Max Balanced Headphone Amp->Balanced AKG701s & HD650s muski's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=3670 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=38758 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Earthworks M30 vs ECM 8000 side-by-side test for Inguz DRC
nuhi;230850 Wrote: > muski, oh ok. > > While adjusting the curve to your new comparison I was wondering are > those dBs on the phase response actually degrees or it's more like > divided somehow No, it's degrees (-180->0->180). (BTW, I have no phase information in either of my mic cal files). It seems like these phase response plots vary a lot depending on the amount of smoothing done. I'll have a look at the other Octave phase plots. >From the DRC documentation, it's not clear how much benefit there is to modifying the phase information. Also, it looks like you need to modify the .drc files to make sure all the MC flags are set correctly. >From http://drc-fir.sourceforge.net/doc/drc.html: > > Starting from version 2.0.0 DRC lets you specify the phase for the > target post filter stage. Phase specification should be placed after > the amplitude specification and should be expressed in degrees. > Following the example above: > 0 -40 0 > 18 -20 45 > 20 0 90 > 2 0 180 > 21000 -40 90 > 22050 -100 0 > If not specified a value of 0 is assumed. Setting a phase different > than 0, i.e. flat, is useless within normal HiFi systems in almost all > circumstances. Furthermore the phase specification is used only if the > PSFilterType is L, else any phase specification is wiped out by the > minimum phase filter extraction. > Looking forward to doing some listening tests tonight! muske -- muski SB3->Bryston BP25DA->Bryston 4B SST->Wilson Watt Puppy 7 Transporter via XLR->Headroom Max Balanced Headphone Amp->Balanced AKG701s & HD650s muski's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=3670 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=38758 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Earthworks M30 vs ECM 8000 side-by-side test for Inguz DRC
muski, oh ok. While adjusting the curve to your new comparison I was wondering are those dBs on the phase response actually degrees or it's more like divided somehow? I'm asking because in the default ecm8000 there is a huge difference, like 3 times stronger correction in phase (they use 20, your shows 7 for example). Maybe this graph of yours is 3 to 1 or something when it comes to phase? I would want it to be 1:1, just asking if you know. Btw for those experimenting try this ecm8000.txt correction: 0.0 0.0 10.0 20.0 0.0 9.0 23.0 0.0 0.0 158.0 0.0 0.0 200.0 0.0 0.0 2000.0 0.0 0.0 3000.0 0.0 0.0 1.0 7.0 -7.5 15000.0 3.0 -4.0 22050.0 0.0 -3.0 -- nuhi nuhi's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=10571 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=38758 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Earthworks M30 vs ECM 8000 side-by-side test for Inguz DRC
Here are the same first three graphs for the right channel -- just to double check things. Freq response is very similar, though the phase plot is slightly different. Maybe the ECM8000 is actually ok in terms of capturing phase information. +---+ |Filename: R normal flat Test Conv.jpg | |Download: http://forums.slimdevices.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=3449| +---+ -- muski SB3->Bryston BP25DA->Bryston 4B SST->Wilson Watt Puppy 7 Transporter via XLR->Headroom Max Balanced Headphone Amp->Balanced AKG701s & HD650s muski's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=3670 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=38758 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Earthworks M30 vs ECM 8000 side-by-side test for Inguz DRC
nuhi;230770 Wrote: > Tell me one thing please, in the first pic, which calibration file for > the ECM did you use? The first graph is just the Impulse_Response_Measured, so there is no mic calibration applied (ie zeros). In fact, I can't figure out how to generate mic-cal adjusted graphs of the sweeps... -- muski SB3->Bryston BP25DA->Bryston 4B SST->Wilson Watt Puppy 7 Transporter via XLR->Headroom Max Balanced Headphone Amp->Balanced AKG701s & HD650s muski's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=3670 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=38758 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Earthworks M30 vs ECM 8000 side-by-side test for Inguz DRC
Chinanico;230693 Wrote: > I assume that the response in the treble would be more sensitive to the > exact position of the mike than in the bass. Do you think this could > account for some of the differences or did you manage to position them > the very same? I used a mic stand and was very careful to get the tips of the mics in the same place. From the prep log file, it looks like maybe it was 1cm different in the R channel (though these plots show the left channel, which are the same). The M30 prep.log:> > Processing left measurement (m30left.wav)... > Right channel seems to be the sweep > Impulse peak at sample 444 (3.43m, 11.24ft) > Deconvolution: left impulse done. > > Processing right measurement (m30right.wav)... > Right channel seems to be the sweep > Impulse peak at sample 444 (3.43m, 11.24ft) > Deconvolution: right impulse done. The ECM8000 prep.log> > Processing left measurement (ecmleft.wav)... > Right channel seems to be the sweep > Impulse peak at sample 444 (3.43m, 11.24ft) > Deconvolution: left impulse done. > > Processing right measurement (ecmright.wav)... > Right channel seems to be the sweep > Impulse peak at sample 443 (3.42m, 11.22ft) > Deconvolution: right impulse done. muski -- muski SB3->Bryston BP25DA->Bryston 4B SST->Wilson Watt Puppy 7 Transporter via XLR->Headroom Max Balanced Headphone Amp->Balanced AKG701s & HD650s muski's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=3670 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=38758 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Earthworks M30 vs ECM 8000 side-by-side test for Inguz DRC
nuhi;230770 Wrote: > muski, so it is confirmed, without a calibration the ECM8k is almost > useless :( This gets more and more interesting. I sent my ECM8000 out as well to get calibrated. I'll post my cal curve as soon as I get it back. -- tonyptony tonyptony's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=3397 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=38758 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Earthworks M30 vs ECM 8000 side-by-side test for Inguz DRC
muski, so it is confirmed, without a calibration the ECM8k is almost useless :( Tell me one thing please, in the first pic, which calibration file for the ECM did you use? I hope it was none (zeros) so that I can adjust mine. Very helpful indeed, so we do have hi freq issue. I say we because I have the same recorded response with my ECM. Also I own Bryston 4BSST...could it be the cause hmm ;) -- nuhi nuhi's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=10571 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=38758 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Earthworks M30 vs ECM 8000 side-by-side test for Inguz DRC
muski;230687 Wrote: > > It's interesting to see that the ECM8000 does mostly OK in the lower > freq, but not so well above 1KHz. > > muski Very interesting! Thanks for sharing. Not a good news for ECM8000 users like me (and like most here I guess). I assume that the response in the treble would be more sensitive to the exact position of the mike than in the bass. Do you think this could account for some of the differences or did you manage to position them the very same? Anayway there is still something positive about it: this would mean that if I take the path of Audiolense to take measures and generate filters for below 200Hz correction only, I shall be fine. the more I listen to filters and the more I thnik I cannot live without the low frequency corrections, but that in the upper frequencies this is more a matter of the sound being different, sometimes better, sometimes not, depending on the music (definitly clearer and with more lisibility, but sometimes too much on the dry side...) -- Chinanico CEC TL51X / SB3 > Audiomat Maestro > Jeff Rowland Concentra 2 > System Audio SA2K Chinanico's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=12794 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=38758 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
