Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Q: What exactly is break or burn in time?
Damn I think I'll just chuck my fancy wires and just rewire with some lamp cord and them freebie cables that came in the box... Hey Opie sure you ain't related to Julian Hirsh?? He could never hear any differences either, lol -- ErikM ErikM's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=7576 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=33615 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Q: What exactly is break or burn in time?
mmg_fan;11 Wrote: > It seems that the general consensus is that solid state components > definitely DO benefit from a warm-up AND break-in/burnin time. This is > something that is measureable. > There is no such consensus. Suppose such a thing were true. In order to make an audible difference, the changes would have to be relatively large - in general, we can measure changes in the electrical characterstics of a circuit with far greater precision than we can hear the results of such changes in an audio chain. Countless physics experiments rely on incredibly precise measurements. All those experiments use electrical equipment, much of which is constructed in the lab using (good quality, naturally) off the shelf components. Such things as miniscule static charges, tiny little breaths of air, slight vibrations caused by distant traffic or someone walking three corridors away can affect the resuls of these experiments and must be dealt with. We're talking about *incredibly* tiny effects here. These experiments are often conducted in a hard vacuum and cooled to a few miliKelvin above absolute zero, because otherwise disturbances in the air and thermal noise would drown out the signal. And yet I have never once heard of anyone in such an experiment having a problem with changing electrical characterisitcs of a capacitor over time (I'll ask some of my colleagues, just to be sure). How odd - audiophiles must really have golden ears to be able to detect an effect so small it can't be measured in state of the art experiments. I guess those audiophiles had better seal their equipment in a vacuum chamber, because they must be disturbed by tiny air currents too. Exactly how they're going to hear anything in a liquid-helium cooled vacuum is a bit of a conundrum... anyone sense a business opportunity? ErikM Wrote: > > So when I put in a new set of speakers cables and they sound bright, > grainey and lack bass, but after playing music through them for X hours > and they don't sound that way anymore it's a placebo effect?? Yes. -- opaqueice opaqueice's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=4234 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=33615 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Q: What exactly is break or burn in time?
So when I put in a new set of speakers cables and they sound bright, grainey and lack bass, but after playing music through them for X hours and they don't sound that way anymore it's a placebo effect?? Because if the system still sounded like crap I'd return the cables... I only ask beause when I installed Cardas Golden reference speaker cables they sounded bright grainey and lacked bass.. after about 100 hours they don't sound that way, or rather the system doesn't sound that way... So I'm hearing things?? I guess this is an argument that can't be won. -- ErikM ErikM's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=7576 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=33615 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Q: What exactly is break or burn in time?
It seems that the general consensus is that solid state components definitely DO benefit from a warm-up AND break-in/burnin time. This is something that is measureable. As for speaker cables, from what i've read, the general consensus is that any perceived diffrence in quality after a break-in time is primarily placebo and/or simply due to your ears adapting to the cables. -- mmg_fan mmg_fan's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=9157 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=33615 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Q: What exactly is break or burn in time?
So do all their amps sound the same before and/or after burn-in? :-) -- jmourik jmourik's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=7123 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=33615 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Q: What exactly is break or burn in time?
Here's a thought. Why is it that every audio designer/engineer that I've ever spoken to or read comments from has commented that their gear needs to burn/break in to sound it's best? These are guys like William Johnson ( Audio Research), Dan D'Aagostino ( Krell), Charley Hansen ( Ayre), etc.. These are guys who build some of the very best sounding gear on the market. I'll even go out on a limb to say that I'd tend to believe their ears and experience over what a bunch of armchair quarterbacks who most likley have never built or designed an audio component from scratch let alone some of the most highly regarded compenents of the last 30 years think. Just my $.02 worth -- ErikM ErikM's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=7576 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=33615 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Q: What exactly is break or burn in time?
tomjtx;188473 Wrote: > At least we haven't (yet) suffered May Belt hopping on this forum and > pushing her husbands ideas. > > On the stereophile forum she has gone on and on with her obfuscating > arguments designed to conceal the snake oil. > > Spare us that here please. > > They are some serious loony tunes :-) I wouldn't mind the Belts coming over here. I might even change my signature to _promote_ ABX if that happens! -- P Floding No, I didn't ABX it. And I won't even if you ask me. (Especially not if you ask me.) P Floding's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=2932 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=33615 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Q: What exactly is break or burn in time?
At least we haven't (yet) suffered May Belt hopping on this forum and pushing her husbands ideas. On the stereophile forum she has gone on and on with her obfuscating arguments designed to conceal the snake oil. Spare us that here please. They are some serious loony tunes :-) -- tomjtx tomjtx's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=7449 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=33615 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Q: What exactly is break or burn in time?
jmourik;188448 Wrote: > But wouldn't that be the same problem as bringing out a new model? You > just ordered the sb3, and a month later the new and improved sb4 > appears. Bummer... > Or they could launch a SB3 Cryo, for $325? > I think you fell into Tyler's tongue-in-cheek trap. OTOH either that link was poorly written, or I'm not very good at comprehension. The hypothetical manufacturing scenario was well thought out, but I failed to make the connection. The last paragraph* doesn't seem to fit with the rest, but having read it a few times I'm not really sure what the intent was... ... * " If members of the audio industry had been seriously interested in investigating the freezing technique further after Robert Harley's article, perhaps now, some 10 years later, more people than Peter Belt would have had to come to the conclusion that the beneficial effect of freezing has nothing to do with `affecting the audio signal' - that there is something else `going on'. This realisation only comes about when one realises that freezing something which could not, by any stretch of the imagination, be associated with the audio system and yet one can obtain a similar beneficial effect on the `sound' !!! " ... I would hope that by 'going on' s/he means psychological expectation, but who knows? -- Skunk Skunk's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=2685 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=33615 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Q: What exactly is break or burn in time?
jmourik;188448 Wrote: > But wouldn't that be the same problem as bringing out a new model? You > just ordered the sb3, and a month later the new and improved sb4 > appears. Bummer... > Or they could launch a SB3 Cryo, for $325? > > Dunno... No, that would be different. TD -- tyler_durden tyler_durden's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=2701 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=33615 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Q: What exactly is break or burn in time?
tyler_durden;188442 Wrote: > Read this to find out why Slimdevices doesn't freeze SB3 components > before assembly or whole SB3s before shipping them But wouldn't that be the same problem as bringing out a new model? You just ordered the sb3, and a month later the new and improved sb4 appears. Bummer... Or they could launch a SB3 Cryo, for $325? Dunno... -- jmourik jmourik's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=7123 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=33615 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Q: What exactly is break or burn in time?
Read this to find out why Slimdevices doesn't freeze SB3 components before assembly or whole SB3s before shipping them: http://finance.groups.yahoo.com/group/PWB/message/162 Any comments, Sean? TD -- tyler_durden tyler_durden's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=2701 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=33615 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Q: What exactly is break or burn in time?
Here is some more fun: http://www.machinadynamica.com/machina64.htm Even Schrödinger's Cat gets involved in this one! -- P Floding No, I didn't ABX it. And I won't even if you ask me. (Especially not if you ask me.) P Floding's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=2932 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=33615 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Q: What exactly is break or burn in time?
Wilfred;188382 Wrote: > Most people aren't scientists, and thus usually don't understand what it > is. The main goal of science is do build a model of an observed > phenomenon that can be used to predict its behavior under different > conditions. Also, when someone bemoans the ignorance of 'science', it > is often because they are reading stupidified reports by journalists. > Burn-in and, another favorite, cryogenics, are real physical phenomena > abused by the hucksters and their ignorant marks. For some truly wacky > nonsense, check out this raving lunatic: > http://www.positive-feedback.com/Issue30/belt.htm. For more fun one might go directly to the horse's mouth: http://www.belt.demon.co.uk Here is a free tip from this site: "Align the slots in all screw heads so that the slots are parallel to the earth's surface. ALL screws - screws fastening light switches to the wall, screws fastening AC power sockets to the wall, screws fastening shelves to the wall etc. Listen to some music for a short time and then move any of the screw slots away from being parallel to the earth's surface and see if you can listen to the same music with the same pleasure !!" http://www.belt.demon.co.uk/Free_Techniques/Free_Techniques.html -- P Floding No, I didn't ABX it. And I won't even if you ask me. (Especially not if you ask me.) P Floding's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=2932 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=33615 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Q: What exactly is break or burn in time?
tyler_durden;188372 Wrote: > For more interesting info about how religion has had its influence on > American society, read this: > > http://moses.creighton.edu/jrs/2005/2005-11.html > > TD Interesting article TD! Thanks... -- jmourik jmourik's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=7123 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=33615 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Q: What exactly is break or burn in time?
Most people aren't scientists, and thus usually don't understand what it is. The main goal of science is do build a model of an observed phenomenon that can be used to predict its behavior under different conditions. Also, when someone bemoans the ignorance of 'science', it is often because they are reading stupidified reports by journalists. Burn-in and, another favorite, cryogenics, are real physical phenomena abused by the hucksters and their ignorant marks. For some truly wacky nonsense, check out this raving lunatic: http://www.positive-feedback.com/Issue30/belt.htm. -- Wilfred Wilfred's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=9883 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=33615 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Q: What exactly is break or burn in time?
I too have a natural scepticism about device and theories of this type. However, I also see that while science has done a good job of explaining the more obvious phenomenon in this world, its success has meant that we have effective reinvented the world we perceive from the coarse building block science affords us. Such reduction to coarseness and rejection of subtlety and the unexplained hinders future scientific progress. The father of classical physics was also an enthusiastic alchemist and that did stop him formulating laws to explain planetary motion or inventing calculus. There is much that is readily observable that science can not explain and no honest scientist would deny that. I know nothing of Jim Hagermans break-in devices, but as a previous customer of one of his more prosaic kits, echo Gary's comment that he is one of the good guys in diy audio. Certainly, his promotion of this device gives me cause to ponder. -- Jitterbug Jitterbug's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=4955 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=33615 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Q: What exactly is break or burn in time?
Yes, this is America's great shame. The lunatics are running the assylum. For more interesting info about how religion has had its influence on American society, read this: http://moses.creighton.edu/jrs/2005/2005-11.html TD -- tyler_durden tyler_durden's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=2701 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=33615 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Q: What exactly is break or burn in time?
opaqueice;188065 Wrote: > It never ceases to amaze me that some audiophiles regard the opinions of > untrained people, people with a direct financial interest in the > subject, as more credible than those of disinterested professional > scientists that do full-time research on it. Why? Well, actually it amazes me too, and whenever I go through these threads it always reminds me of this: http://www.livescience.com/humanbiology/060810_evo_rank.html People like to believe in myths. Of course, when my new dac60 arrives I'll have it play continuously for at least a week :-) -- jmourik jmourik's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=7123 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=33615 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Q: What exactly is break or burn in time?
haunyack;188075 Wrote: > "Unfortunately, because insulation stores and releases energy, it is > also a dielectric. In a cable application, all released energy is > distortion. The misnomer break-in is often used... Actually some of this is real science. A cable is made up of two conductors separated by an insulator, and therefore has capacitance. Dielectric absorption is real, and so is capacitance change with applied voltage. I've seen caps that reduce in value by 50% with just 5v applied across them - the effect is not always small. So, I can believe that at frequencies where the effect of a few pF is significant, applying a DC bias might indeed change the characteristics of the cable. Whether it makes any difference at audio frequencies is highly debatable, though. But what really makes me laugh is the idea that the effect is somehow persistent. It's not; discharge a capacitor to remove the dc bias from it again and it's back to its original state almost immediately. All this would be a lot more plausible too if the dc bias were actually between the conductors that carry the signal. It isn't... -- AndyC_772 AndyC_772's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=10472 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=33615 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Q: What exactly is break or burn in time?
opaqueice;188187 Wrote: > With some experience it starts to get easier to know when you can trust > your perception and when not. Gee, you mean you don't always need A/B testing??? You're starting to sound just like me 8-} . . . Maybe now you'll believing me . . . ---Gary -- GaryB GaryB's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=3169 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=33615 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Q: What exactly is break or burn in time?
ErikM;188184 Wrote: > Wow! So if I hear a difference its not real? You mean I did hear a > difference, but really I just thought I heard it, so all these years > when I bought better speakers, and electronics,which I thought sounded > better I wasn't really hearing better sound I just thought I was? WOW, > you mean that those first generation CD players which I thought sounded > like S--T really sounded great. Boy do I feel stupid. I think I'll dump > my Proac speakers for a Bose Wave radio You're the one who brought up the comparison to "flat earth theory". This isn't about CD players. This isn't about saying that there's no difference between anything. We're talking about whether or not burn-in makes a difference in cables/electronics. So here's the deal: no one can force anyone to believe something. There are some here who claim to be able to hear certain differences. Others of us (myself included) have been unable to hear such differences. So that leaves us to assess the facts to evaluate the claims being made. Outside of anecdotal claims of being able to hear differences the facts are decidedly *against* those who claim to be able to hear the supposed effects of burn-in (yet there are a host of psychological theories that would explain what burn-in advocates are hearing). So for those of us who remain skeptics, understand where we're coming from. For me, the existence of burn-in effects is about as likely as the existence of UFOs from outer space. Possible? maybe, but highly unlikely, and ultimately unproven despite many claims of sightings. And let's be clear: there are loads of other effects in play. I'll wager that moving any piece of furniture in your listening room even an inch would have more affect on the sound than any possible cable burn-in could. -- azinck3 azinck3's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=3967 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=33615 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Q: What exactly is break or burn in time?
ErikM;188184 Wrote: > Wow! So if I hear a difference its not real? You mean I did hear a > difference, but really I just thought I heard it, so all these years > when I bought better speakers, and electronics,which I thought sounded > better I wasn't really hearing better sound I just thought I was? WOW, > you mean that those first generation CD players which I thought sounded > like S--T really sounded great. Boy do I feel stupid. I think I'll dump > my Proac speakers for a Bose Wave radio With some experience it starts to get easier to know when you can trust your perception and when not. If you're actually interested, try a computer based ABX program (like foobar2000 with the ABXY plugin), and see whether you can tell 320 kb/s MP3 from lossless, say. Once you start to recognize how often you can be wrong, and how easy it is to fool yourself into thinking you hear a difference when you don't, you may become a bit better at judging when to trust yourself. -- opaqueice opaqueice's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=4234 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=33615 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Q: What exactly is break or burn in time?
Wow! So if I hear a difference its not real? You mean I did hear a difference, but really I just thought I heard it, so all these years when I bought better speakers, and electronics,which I thought sounded better I wasn't really hearing better sound I just thought I was? WOW, you mean that those first generation CD players which I thought sounded like S--T really sounded great. Boy do I feel stupid. I think I'll dump my Proac speakers for a Bose Wave radio opaqueice;188148 Wrote: > Challenging, yeah - like admitting that something you thought you heard > might not be real. Actually, personally I find that pretty easy, but > evidently there are some people that can't admit it even in the face of > overwhelming evidence. Kind of like people that didn't want to admit > that the earth was round, huh? -- ErikM ErikM's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=7576 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=33615 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Q: What exactly is break or burn in time?
ErikM;188131 Wrote: > Certainly unhooking and rehooking will slightly clean the connections.. > but that would make things sound better asumming that ones contacts are > that dirty or corroded. Of course if you did try what I suggest (maybe > clean the contacts first) and heard a diference what would you do?? > Would you even admit you heard a difference? For some having ones > beliefs challenged can be , well challenging. Challenging, yeah - like admitting that something you thought you heard might not be real. Actually, personally I find that pretty easy, but evidently there are some people that can't admit it even in the face of overwhelming evidence. Kind of like people that didn't want to admit that the earth was round, huh? -- opaqueice opaqueice's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=4234 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=33615 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Q: What exactly is break or burn in time?
ErikM;188131 Wrote: > Certainly unhooking and rehooking will slightly clean the connections.. > but that would make things sound better asumming that ones contacts are > that dirty or corroded. Of course if you did try what I suggest (maybe > clean the contacts first) and heard a diference what would you do?? > Would you even admit you heard a difference? For some having ones > beliefs challenged can be , well challenging. I don't belong to those who say cable affecting sound is impossible. Not even "burn in". But I think it is incorrect to jump to conclusions as to what exactly has affected the sound. (And I always keep in mind that it is easy to imagin things. Very easy.) -- P Floding No, I didn't ABX it. And I won't even if you ask me. (Especially not if you ask me.) P Floding's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=2932 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=33615 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Q: What exactly is break or burn in time?
Certainly unhooking and rehooking will slightly clean the connections.. but that would make things sound better asumming that ones contacts are that dirty or corroded. Of course if you did try what I suggest (maybe clean the contacts first) and heard a diference what would you do?? Would you even admit you heard a difference? For some having ones beliefs challenged can be , well challenging. -- ErikM ErikM's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=7576 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=33615 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Q: What exactly is break or burn in time?
ErikM;188119 Wrote: > Here's a simple test that anyone can try. ...snip... > What you'll most likley hear is that your system now sounds brighter, > less good, less as it sounded before. This effect will pass in a few > hours to as much a day, and your system will sound as before. The > question, if you hear this phenomenon, is why? I have an idea but > before I present my conclusions maybe one of those who don't believe > material changes effect the sonics of audio electronics will have a go. > Unless one is afraid of finding out the world maybe isn't flat :-) You oughta quit smoking that stuff; clearly it is NOT good for you. TD -- tyler_durden tyler_durden's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=2701 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=33615 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Q: What exactly is break or burn in time?
ErikM;188119 Wrote: > What you'll most likley hear is that your system now sounds brighter, > less good, less as it sounded before. This effect will pass in a few > hours to as much a day, and your system will sound as before. The > question, if you hear this phenomenon, is why? I have an idea but > before I present my conclusions maybe one of those who don't believe > material changes effect the sonics of audio electronics will have a go. > Unless one is afraid of finding out the world maybe isn't flat :-) I remember when I first tried the cable I ended up with, plugged it in and thought ahhh at last a cable that I like in every area of sound repro. Then took note of the guy who sent it to me - he advised plug it in, let it play for a few hours then listen - Why I asked - Just to let it settle into the system you have, was the reply. A few hours later, listened again and it was even betterI don't know how, but I bought it :D and an amazed at how good it sounds each time it goes on :D, .maybe I should get that salesman guy to suggest my car has an extra 500bhp and pay him £400 :) -- Deaf Cat Deaf Cat's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=515 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=33615 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Q: What exactly is break or burn in time?
ErikM;188119 Wrote: > Here's a simple test that anyone can try. It validates what Hagerman is > saying, to an extent. Asumming that one has a decent system and can > hear differences say between speakers ( we can all agree that speakers > sound different)listen to your system for a few minutes. Then remove > the interconnect between say amp preamp or better yet the interconnect > between SB and preamp or CD player and preamp ( you get the idea) now > take that cable and loosely wrap it around your hand doesn't have to be > tight just coil it up,say 4"-6" diameter coils. This test assumes that > the cable in it's normal position is extended to it full lenght between > components. Now uncoil the cable and put it back on the system, and > LISTEN. > > > What you'll most likley hear is that your system now sounds brighter, > less good, less as it sounded before. This effect will pass in a few > hours to as much a day, and your system will sound as before. The > question, if you hear this phenomenon, is why? I have an idea but > before I present my conclusions maybe one of those who don't believe > material changes effect the sonics of audio electronics will have a go. > Unless one is afraid of finding out the world maybe isn't flat :-) Unfortunately, whenever you remove and reattach cables (interconnect or power) you affect the surfaces of the connection. Usually you get an improvement simply by removing and reattaching things. Does your system sound a bit tired? Try removing and reattaching all cables. -- P Floding No, I didn't ABX it. And I won't even if you ask me. (Especially not if you ask me.) P Floding's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=2932 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=33615 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Q: What exactly is break or burn in time?
ErikM;188119 Wrote: > > What you'll most likley hear is that your system now sounds brighter, > less good, less as it sounded before. This effect will pass in a few > hours to as much a day, and your system will sound as before. The > question, if you hear this phenomenon, is why? I have an idea but > before I present my conclusions maybe one of those who don't believe > material changes effect the sonics of audio electronics will have a go. > Unless one is afraid of finding out the world maybe isn't flat :-) Could you hear this difference in a blind test? If not, or if you haven't tried it, it means nothing. Please don't take that personally - if I or anyone else tried the same not-blind experiment and heard a difference, it would also mean nothing. Expectations are very powerful. And incidentally, the experiment you describe here has nothing to do with what is normally called cable burn-in, where the cable is left stationary and some electrical signal is sent along it. The effect you're talking about, if it existed, could result from something as simple as improving the electrical contact the cable makes with the amp from detaching and re-attaching it - nothing to do with burn-in. I love this flat-earth thing - it's so deliciously ironic that audio subjectivists see themselves as the scientific rationalists in this debate... -- opaqueice opaqueice's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=4234 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=33615 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Q: What exactly is break or burn in time?
Here's a simple test that anyone can try. It validates what Hagerman is saying, to an extent. Asumming that one has a decent system and can hear differences say between speakers ( we can all agree that speakers sound different)listen to your system for a few minutes. Then remove the interconnect between say amp preamp or better yet the interconnect between SB and preamp or CD player and preamp ( you get the idea) now take that cable and loosely wrap it around your hand doesn't have to be tight just coil it up,say 4"-6" diameter coils. This test assumes that the cable in it's normal position is extended to it full lenght between components. Now uncoil the cable and put it back on the system, and LISTEN. What you'll most likley hear is that your system now sounds brighter, less good, less as it sounded before. This effect will pass in a few hours to as much a day, and your system will sound as before. The question, if you hear this phenomenon, is why? I have an idea but before I present my conclusions maybe one of those who don't believe material changes effect the sonics of audio electronics will have a go. Unless one is afraid of finding out the world maybe isn't flat :-) -- ErikM ErikM's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=7576 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=33615 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Q: What exactly is break or burn in time?
hi mmg_fan, I just noticed you got MG12, rather than MMGs. So, how do you like them with Yolida? Can you tell there are tubes in the path (as opposed to some SS amp of the similar level)? Is Yolida capable of driving MGs? Back to the topic. Can you, with your equipment, tell the difference between any different brand speaker cables, regardless of broken in or not? K -- slimkid The sound stage will open up, bass will tighten and the imaging will improve. DVD performance will also increase substantially. slimkid's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=8881 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=33615 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Q: What exactly is break or burn in time?
AndyC_772;187999 Wrote: > Have you actually read the FAQ? He quite openly admits to having > absolutely no clue what 'break-in' might actually be doing to the > cable, or what the effect (if any) is on its measurable parameters. > Instead he writes a load of fluff like "It is needed to "format" and > clean up or "wash" the materials in the cable". > > This is not something that would be written by an expert. It's > meaningless. > > Even if there were some change going on in the cable, who is to say > it's always advantageous? I'm honestly quite surprised that nobody has > yet suggested that a cable has a finite life after which it should be > replaced. The components in your hi-fi - capacitors, especially - > certainly do have a finite lifetime, during which they're steadily > degrading. > > Sure, unplug a cable, stick it on some useless gadget for a few hours > and put it back. You'll have cleaned some oxide or other crud from the > contacts and given your ears a rest, so I'm not surprised it sounds > slightly better. "Unfortunately, because insulation stores and releases energy, it is also a dielectric. In a cable application, all released energy is distortion. The misnomer break-in is often used to describe the pronounced improvement in performance as the dielectric adapts to a charged state as the cable is used. Whenever a cable does not have a charge on it, it is re-adapting to an uncharged state; it is becoming new again. By maintaining a 72 volt dielectric-bias, far above the voltage of delicate audio signals, the DBS system provides considerably better transparency and dynamics than is possible even from a cable in continuous use. It takes a couple of weeks for the DBS system to reach maximum performance. Since DBS battery packs are attached when Kilimanjaro cables are first terminated, Kilimanjaro will be approaching or at peak performance by the time it is installed in your system. Since there is no load on the two standard hardware-store batteries, they will last for years. A test button and LED allow for occasional verification of battery performance." http://cgi.ebay.com/10-FT-AUDIOQUEST-KILIMANJARO-DBL-BI-WIRE-SPEAKER-CABLE_W0QQitemZ180096477438QQcategoryZ14966QQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem All that and more for only $3999.00 Hoo-boy! . -- haunyack RWA SB3 > Bryston BP20 > B&K r200.2 > Vandersteen 3A Signature haunyack's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=9721 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=33615 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Q: What exactly is break or burn in time?
GaryB;188040 Wrote: > TD, > You do have a way of creating a strawman and then knocking it down. I > recommended Hagerman's site because he admits he doesn't know why > burn-in works scientifically but does offer his own empirical findings. > He also has built some relatively affordable burn-in accelerators and > they seem to sell well. I find this market acceptance an indicator of > reasonable value given his very low key approach to advertising and his > willingness to share openly his engineering. > What empirical findings? I don't see anything on that page other than some gibberish about materials and a whole bunch of unsubstantiated claims. All this from a guy that makes his living *selling a burn-in product*. At least the tobacco industry studies showing smoking is good for you presented some fraudulent pseudo-scientific data - this guy hasn't even bothered to go that far. It never ceases to amaze me that some audiophiles regard the opinions of untrained people, people with a direct financial interest in the subject, as more credible than those of disinterested professional scientists that do full-time research on it. It's as if there's some vast conspiracy of scientists working feverishly to hide the truth about great audio, while a few brave Promethean dealers selling $1000 wires forge ahead expanding the frontiers of human knowledge -- opaqueice opaqueice's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=4234 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=33615 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Q: What exactly is break or burn in time?
tyler_durden;188062 Wrote: > What engineering? > > The guy simply recognizes that there are a number if insecure > in-duh-viduals out there with disposable income to throw away on junk, > so he provides the junk. > > Here's an old saying that may help you through the rest of your audio > life: "if there ain't no numbers, there ain't no engineering". > > TD I don't agree with your portrayal of these kind of people. Some people simply have a vivid imagination and are able to convince themselves that their theories are almost certainly true. You most probably find them amongst the self-taught engineering types. It doesn't make them devious scammers, even though it might look like that in the eyes of people with a different disposition. The problem is that we all need mental models of the world, and sometimes this model can become all too real. It happens to the sceptics too. -- P Floding No, I didn't ABX it. And I won't even if you ask me. (Especially not if you ask me.) P Floding's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=2932 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=33615 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Q: What exactly is break or burn in time?
GaryB;188040 Wrote: > TD, > I recommended Hagerman's site because he admits he doesn't know why > burn-in works scientifically but does offer his own empirical findings. > He also has built some relatively affordable burn-in accelerators and > they seem to sell well. I find this market acceptance an indicator of > reasonable value given his very low key approach to advertising and his > willingness to share openly his engineering. > ---Gary What engineering? The guy simply recognizes that there are a number if insecure in-duh-viduals out there with disposable income to throw away on junk, so he provides the junk. Here's an old saying that may help you through the rest of your audio life: "if there ain't no numbers, there ain't no engineering". TD -- tyler_durden tyler_durden's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=2701 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=33615 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Q: What exactly is break or burn in time?
Thing is, though, he's not just saying "I can't justify the effects of cable 'burn-in' scientifically, but people claim to be able to hear a difference, so I believe there is a genuine effect on the properties of the cable and I have a product which I believe may stimulate and accelerate the process". Instead, there's total hogwash about 'formatting' and 'washing' materials. We are told that a signal of a level which is safe for the fine wire in a cartridge will somehow succeed in "forming the materials after a chaotic manufacturing experience" - even if that cable will then be used to carry mains power. Even if break-in is indeed a real, physical process which does change the electrical characteristics of the cable, Hagerman is doing himself and the industry no favours by promoting his product with such unscientific babble. -- AndyC_772 AndyC_772's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=10472 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=33615 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Q: What exactly is break or burn in time?
tyler_durden;187978 Wrote: > The guy is selling a $500 cable break-in device so his opinion is more > "informed"? TD, You do have a way of creating a strawman and then knocking it down. I recommended Hagerman's site because he admits he doesn't know why burn-in works scientifically but does offer his own empirical findings. He also has built some relatively affordable burn-in accelerators and they seem to sell well. I find this market acceptance an indicator of reasonable value given his very low key approach to advertising and his willingness to share openly his engineering. Hagerman is one of the good guys in audio and offers some of the most reasonable priced gear to audiophiles out there. Using his Frykleaner as an example, he prices it at different levels with different finishes so its available to a wider audience. Using the Frykleaner as an example, one can get it as follows: --- If you want a fancier case and heavier duty outputs so one can burn in multiple cables then you have the Frykleaner Gold at $500 --- Or if that's too much one can buy the standard Frykleaner assembled for $175 --- Or if that's too much one can buy the circuit board and build it oneself for $39 --- Or if that's too much one can download the sound clip for free I think claims that he's milking audiophiles are really missing the mark. ---Gary -- GaryB GaryB's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=3169 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=33615 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Q: What exactly is break or burn in time?
Deaf Cat;188017 Wrote: > > God knows how it works, I've not got a clue, but would be intrested to > know how, if it can be explained in terms that I understand - (simple) > :) Here how it is explained in terms of what you understand: your desire/expectation that it will sound better after "burn-in" causes you to think that it does. TD -- tyler_durden tyler_durden's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=2701 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=33615 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Q: What exactly is break or burn in time?
mmg_fan;187955 Wrote: > I'm auditioning some anti-cable interconnects and speaker cables on my > system (Magnepan MG12's, Jolida hybrid amp) and though a bit bright > sounding, overall I am quite pleased. > But the literature accompanying them suggests a minimum of 200 and up > to 500 hours of 'break-in' time. > Can someone help or at least offer their opinion? Do you have shop demo cables, or new out of the box cables to try ? >From listening to the change in sound that I heard when burning in my IC, the new and part way burnt in sound, is different to the end, fully burnt in sound. So in future I will always try and get hold of a demo cable that has had plenty of hours use already, let it settle in for an hour or two (system playing, not listening to it), then sit down, and then decide if I like it. The cable I bought needed approx 500hrs burn in, did not believe it to start with, but it did sound different to the demo cable I had borrowed. I seem to remember it went through stages and at one point I was going to take it back to the shop, as it sounded thin bright and scritchy. After a few more days it filled out bass came back, and it smoothed out lovely :) - To the sound I bought it for. So I'd say make sure it is fully burnt in before you decide to purchase it, or not. God knows how it works, I've not got a clue, but would be intrested to know how, if it can be explained in terms that I understand - (simple) :) -- Deaf Cat Deaf Cat's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=515 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=33615 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Q: What exactly is break or burn in time?
GaryB;187975 Wrote: > For another and perhaps better informed opinion, take a look at the > following FAQ written by Jim Hagerman of Hagtech. He's a very good > engineer and makes quality audio products and kits at reasonable > prices. The FAQ is here: > > http://www.hagtech.com/burn.html > > And Jim's Frykleaner product for helping accelerate burn in is here: > > http://hagtech.com/frykleaner.html > > I have no connection with Hagerman or Hagtech. > > ---Gary Unfortunately the "scientific explanation" contained no real science. Better then to admit to not knowing what is going on. -- P Floding No, I didn't ABX it. And I won't even if you ask me. (Especially not if you ask me.) P Floding's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=2932 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=33615 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Q: What exactly is break or burn in time?
GaryB;187975 Wrote: > For another and perhaps better informed opinion, take a look at the > following FAQ written by Jim Hagerman of Hagtech. He's a very good > engineer and makes quality audio products and kits at reasonable > prices. The FAQ is here: > Have you actually read the FAQ? He quite openly admits to having absolutely no clue what 'break-in' might actually be doing to the cable, or what the effect (if any) is on its measurable parameters. Instead he writes a load of fluff like "It is needed to "format" and clean up or "wash" the materials in the cable". This is not something that would be written by an expert. It's meaningless. Even if there were some change going on in the cable, who is to say it's always advantageous? I'm honestly quite surprised that nobody has yet suggested that a cable has a finite life after which it should be replaced. The components in your hi-fi - capacitors, especially - certainly do have a finite lifetime, during which they're steadily degrading. Sure, unplug a cable, stick it on some useless gadget for a few hours and put it back. You'll have cleaned some oxide or other crud from the contacts and given your ears a rest, so I'm not surprised it sounds slightly better. -- AndyC_772 AndyC_772's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=10472 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=33615 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Q: What exactly is break or burn in time?
GaryB;187965 Wrote: > Well we don't want to make this too easy for you, so we'll offer > multiple choices and see if you can guess the right answer. > > Break-in is: > > ---Gary Another one I saw on the forms is: * The time period you need to get over buyer's remorse, so you are less likely to return an item to a manufacturer. -- SuperQ SuperQ's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=2139 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=33615 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Q: What exactly is break or burn in time?
GaryB;187975 Wrote: > For another and perhaps better informed opinion, take a look at the > following FAQ written by Jim Hagerman of Hagtech. He's a very good > engineer and makes quality audio products and kits at reasonable > prices. The FAQ is here: > > http://www.hagtech.com/burn.html > > I have no connection with Hagerman or Hagtech. > > ---Gary Interesting logic. The guy is selling a break-in device so his opinion is more "informed"? In case anyone thinks there may be someone trying to make a fast buck you comfort us with the knowledge the YOU have no connection with the guy selling the product. I guess that makes it all OK, then! I think there are about 6 different logic errors buried in there... TD -- tyler_durden tyler_durden's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=2701 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=33615 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Q: What exactly is break or burn in time?
opaqueice;187969 Wrote: > My (informed) opinion is that break-in for cables is non-existent. For another and perhaps better informed opinion, take a look at the following FAQ written by Jim Hagerman of Hagtech. He's a very good engineer and makes quality audio products and kits at reasonable prices. The FAQ is here: http://www.hagtech.com/burn.html And Jim's Frykleaner product for helping accelerate burn in is here: http://hagtech.com/frykleaner.html I have no connection with Hagerman or Hagtech. ---Gary -- GaryB GaryB's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=3169 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=33615 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Q: What exactly is break or burn in time?
mmg_fan;187955 Wrote: > Ok > Yes, I have done a search and read this thread; > http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=33527&highlight=break > > > But it still doesn't answer the question. > And you think this one will? My (informed) opinion is that break-in for cables is non-existent. Electronics do "break-in", but in the opposite way most audiophiles seem to believe - they degrade gradually, and then tend to break (cease functioning!) suddenly. Speaker cones do break-in, at least in the sense that their characteristics change to some extent over time, particularly when brand new. How significant that is, or why it should constitute any improvement in sound, is unclear. This is one of those cases where, to explain a fact (that many people believe in this and think they hear it in uncontrolled tests) there is an extremely implausible and complicated explanation available (esoteric and unknown physics), and a very plausible and simple one which is known to be true in many similar situations (psychology). Take your choice. -- opaqueice opaqueice's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=4234 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=33615 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Q: What exactly is break or burn in time?
mmg_fan;187955 Wrote: > > I'm auditioning some anti-cable interconnects and speaker cables on my > system (Magnepan MG12's, Jolida hybrid amp) and though a bit bright > sounding, overall I am quite pleased. > But the literature accompanying them suggests a minimum of 200 and up > to 500 hours of 'break-in' time. > Can someone help or at least offer their opinion? This is a piece of magnet wire, not an electronic circuit. I say run the other way. -- Skunk Skunk's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=2685 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=33615 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Q: What exactly is break or burn in time?
mmg_fan;187955 Wrote: > Is 'burn' or 'break-in' time when it comes to electronics/speaker cables > simply a psycho-acoustic phenomena or does something physical actually > happen to make the sound 'better'? > Well we don't want to make this too easy for you, so we'll offer multiple choices and see if you can guess the right answer. Break-in is: 1)A real effect although the physical explanations aren't well understood. 2)A real effect associated with actual physical phenomena such as stabilization of dielectrics in capacitors and linearization of contact resistance as current passes through barriers. 3)A clever marketing ploy meant to separate naive audiophiles from their hard earned money. 4)Mass delusion - pass the Koolaid. 5)Undetectable in double blind testing and thus nonexistent no matter how many people say they hear it. 6)None of the above. ---Gary -- GaryB GaryB's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=3169 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=33615 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
