Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Virtual Dynamics Power 3 2000% Profit Margin
seanadams;339423 Wrote: > You have reached an intellectual dead-end - a total impasse. You're > asking questions, but how could any answer satisfy you if you've > already decided that everyone else is full of it?It's my 70's side... ;) seanadams;339423 Wrote: > The thing is, you are asking questions which actually have profound and > fascinating answers. They can't be proven in a few pages of forum > posts, but we can point you in the right direction. Just because you > don't understand it yet doesn't make it pseudo-science. The beauty of > science is that you don't have to believe ANYONE, but you certainly > could never appreciate it with such a closed mind.Thank you for explaining > this point of view. You're right, I shoud be a little more fault-tolerant. It's just that sometimes I've enough of uncertain opinions stacking up in front of me, obscuring my vision. @opaquice: I agree that the main problem of magazines is advertising. But I believe that many of them manage to remain honest, most of the time. You just need to read between the lines, sometimes. Indeed, negative reviews are often..., well, ommited : the manufacturer withdrows the product. :) -- Themis SB3 - Denon 3808 - Sonus Faber Grand Piano Domus Themis's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=14700 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=45323 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Virtual Dynamics Power 3 2000% Profit Margin
honestguv;339431 Wrote: > Audiophiles want to believe in magic. If they stop believing and start > following real world performance then a consumer based hobby is going > to be rather boring and unsatisfactory. How many readers and > advertisers would a home audio publications get that said all competent > cables, amplifiers, CD players,... sound the same, LPs are audibly > deficient and not sensible, valve amplifiers are often audibly > deficient and not sensible,... and so we will almost exclusively go on > about speakers? There would be almost no interest from hobbyists making > a business case very difficult. Really? Isn't that more or less how hi-fi magazines were back before the days of magic cables? A magazine that thoroughly reviewed speakers, plus some sensible reviews of preamps, amps, and source components (limited listening tests to make sure they sound as they should, description of build quality, features, and some measurements) could succeed. Probably it would need to avoid taking too aggressive a tone to keep from alienating too many customers. The audio critic isn't a good example - it's more a series of rants than a magazine, and it stands out only by contrast. But I think the main problem is with advertising - audio magazines are supported mostly not by subscription money but by advertising by manufacturers. That means that negative reviews are very rare, and that's most of the trouble right there. -- opaqueice opaqueice's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=4234 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=45323 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Virtual Dynamics Power 3 2000% Profit Margin
nuhi;338932 Wrote: > @Nonreality, that's it, at least you were wiser from the start. My > wishful thinking got to me, but at least as honestguv stated I did > learn my lesson. > > Don't worry, I've fallen prey to this crap too. Just not with too expensive of stuff because I didn't have the money to fall prey at the time. Had I, it's certainly a possibility that I would have. :( Lack of money can be your friend sometimes. :) -- Nonreality -IF THE RULE YOU FOLLOWED BROUGHT YOU TO THIS, OF WHAT USE IS THE RULE.- HTTP://www.last.fm/user/nonreality Nonreality's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=15723 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=45323 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Virtual Dynamics Power 3 2000% Profit Margin
nuhi;338932 Wrote: > Will it ever change if we don't revolt? Audiophiles want to believe in magic. If they stop believing and start following real world performance then a consumer based hobby is going to be rather boring and unsatisfactory. How many readers and advertisers would a home audio publications get that said all competent cables, amplifiers, CD players,... sound the same, LPs are audibly deficient and not sensible, valve amplifiers are often audibly deficient and not sensible,... and so we will almost exclusively go on about speakers? There would be almost no interest from hobbyists making a business case very difficult. But this is the type of publication you would need to get audiophiles to read if you want to spread the word about cables. How many audiophile read and believe the Audio Critic? Publishing specifications is not necessarily the answer either. In the 70s, as alluded to earlier by Themis, prior to the switch to the audiophile "subjective evaluation without controls" many consumers would strongly weight the difference between 0.02% and 0.01% distortion at 1kHz into an 8 ohm load when purchasing an amplifier. Consequently manufacturers that wanted to sell their amplifiers concentrated on improving this parameter at the expense of other more relevant parameters to real world performance. This did not mean, as many audiophiles claim, that the engineers did not know how to make amplifiers just that the design was, quite sensibly, guided by what the sales people knew would sell. nuhi;338932 Wrote: > your point that audiophiles are mainly stupid and listen to pop music is > strike 2 in my book. I did not say mainly stupid. I said all audiophiles are unintelligent because this is a requirement to hold "flat earth" beliefs. Concerning what audiophiles listen to: http://www.AudioAsylum.com/audio/general/messages/45/457017.html http://www.audioasylum.com/audio/general/messages/45/457190.html http://www.AudioAsylum.com/audio/general/messages/45/457309.html Note this was asked at a show and some of the exhibitors may well have been tempted to give a "right" answer. -- honestguv honestguv's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=13734 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=45323 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Virtual Dynamics Power 3 2000% Profit Margin
Themis;339398 Wrote: > > Moreover, on the domains that I master better (computer science) I am > aware that the vast majority of professionals know very few things : > most of the time they assure other people about a extremely partial > truth. So partial, that it's objectively closer to a "lie" than to > reality. You have reached an intellectual dead-end - a total impasse. You're asking questions, but how could any answer satisfy you if you've already decided that everyone else is full of it? > Is this situation very different in the domain of sound-related > specialists ? In fact, this field is the worst. OK, maybe second worst after nutritional supplements. The thing is, you are asking questions which actually have profound and fascinating answers. They can't be proven in a few pages of forum posts, but we can point you in the right direction. Just because you don't understand it yet doesn't make it pseudo-science. The beauty of science is that you don't have to believe ANYONE, but you certainly could never appreciate it with such a closed mind. -- seanadams seanadams's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=3 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=45323 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Virtual Dynamics Power 3 2000% Profit Margin
Come on, now : I've been listening to hifi equipment for 35 years now... Don't believe that level-adjustment can alter my opinion : it's a beginner's trap, no more. :) The figures of THD I gave are these at full power. That's all. Don't let it obscure your opinion about the distortion (on the whole term, as Dean says, the time counterpart IS important) at normal, listening levels. I omitted (on purpose) one figure : KORA's slew rate is 1µs. The NAD, ... oh well, never mind. :) I assure you it's tricky, to judge on such (incomplete) figures. But we all try to find simplifying ways in order to express an opinion faster. That was the purpose of my example : best way is to listen (not hear, listen). -- Themis SB3 - Denon 3808 - Sonus Faber Grand Piano Domus Themis's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=14700 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=45323 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Virtual Dynamics Power 3 2000% Profit Margin
opaqueice wrote: > any signal can be completely characterized by > its frequency domain counterpart, period. As taught to us by Jean Baptiste Joseph Fourier. ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Virtual Dynamics Power 3 2000% Profit Margin
Themis;339398 Wrote: > Simply when some figures don't reflect what comes out from the speakers, > it puzzles me. But you don't know that. The first and most obvious explanation for such a thing is perceptual bias - we know for a fact that it affects everyone very strongly, and we know that the only way it can be eliminated is via a careful level-matched blind test. Going further, even if you really do prefer the Kora blind, why should we suppose it's -not- because of its relatively high level of harmonic distortion? That would be a perfectly adequate explanation - you may simply have gotten used to it, and you now prefer it. -- opaqueice opaqueice's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=4234 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=45323 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Virtual Dynamics Power 3 2000% Profit Margin
Themis;339356 Wrote: > That's exactly the point in which you're wrong : what makes YOU think > that the figures mean the NAD is closer to the original signal than the > Kora ? Centuries of research in mathematics, physics, and psychoacoustics. > These are only three figures. Do you _seriously_ believe a signal is > objectively closer to the studio when [EMAIL PROTECTED], S/N ratio and > frequency > response are flat ? Are you _so_sure_ that there are no other figures > involved ? > I really wonder how you can assure yourself that these figures are > enough. :) Well, as Sean said we can't be 100% certain of everything. However, the following is true: any signal can be completely characterized by its frequency domain counterpart, period. Moreover, any linear transform acting on a signal can be completely characterized by its action on pure tones. So if amplifiers were linear, their complex frequency response (complex means including phase) would completely characterize what they do to the signal. Now, obviously amplifiers are not exactly linear - that's why THD+N isn't zero. But it is very small (for a decent amplifier), and we know very well how to handle small deviations from linearity. In fact just about all physics is precisely about that. So we know all that very well from our knowledge of physics and electronics independently of audio. But we also know it well from at least a century of psychoacoustic research (that is, we know quite well under what circumstances people can distinguish two similar sounds). That research dovetails quite nicely with the physics - there are few if any real surprises. -- opaqueice opaqueice's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=4234 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=45323 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Virtual Dynamics Power 3 2000% Profit Margin
I'm not excessive. Simply when some figures don't reflect what comes out from the speakers, it puzzles me. As I'm not a sound-related engineer, and as nobody can give me a good explanation, I try to think using my own logic. Moreover, on the domains that I master better (computer science) I am aware that the vast majority of professionals know very few things : most of the time they assure other people about a extremely partial truth. So partial, that it's objectively closer to a "lie" than to reality. Is this situation very different in the domain of sound-related specialists ? -- Themis SB3 - Denon 3808 - Sonus Faber Grand Piano Domus Themis's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=14700 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=45323 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Virtual Dynamics Power 3 2000% Profit Margin
Themis;339388 Wrote: > Sure Phil. ;) > > And manufacturers, most of the time, don't mention slew rate, neither > rise time, nor settling time, not to mention ringing and overshoot. Let > alone other factors that sound engineers haven't discovered yet. Those parameters are already incorporated in frequency response and distortion measurements - essentially they are just their time domain counterparts. For example, a slow slew rate equates to attenuation at high frequencies, overshoot creates harmonic distortion, etc. As far as factors we haven't discovered yet - any good engineer or scientist will agree that we don't know everything and we can't be 100% sure of anything. That doesn't make the tools we have any less useful. We do in fact understand what these measurable parameters sound like to the ear, and that makes them useful. I don't think anyone is claiming that they tell _everything_, but you seem to be discounting them excessively because you don't "believe in" the science behind them. -- seanadams seanadams's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=3 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=45323 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Virtual Dynamics Power 3 2000% Profit Margin
Sure Phil. ;) And manufacturers, most of the time, don't mention slew rate, neither rise time, nor settling time, not to mention ringing and overshoot. Let alone other factors that sound engineers haven't discovered yet. -- Themis SB3 - Denon 3808 - Sonus Faber Grand Piano Domus Themis's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=14700 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=45323 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Virtual Dynamics Power 3 2000% Profit Margin
Themis;339380 Wrote: > As you know all electronics are "deviations" from the original signal. > Even straight wire. It's just a matter of how much this deviation > influences the listening experience. > I'm sorry to say, but there's nothing that assures us that the KORA > "deviation" (in my example) is more influencing than the NAD one. :) > > How about if the Kora makes the speakers produce less distortion when > delivering their signal on an average load ? How about if the Kora > makes the speakers have a better timing ? Just two examples. I basically agree - that's why I said "based on the available data" ! One problem here is that there is no "original signal" to compare with. Whatever the mastering engineer heard cannot translate exactly to what ends up on the final media, based on your premise (which I agree with). The mastering chain (amps, speakers cables) will be changing the sound so that what is heard is coloured already. So the final mix is based on that coloured perspective...but the bits captured don't exactly reflect that coloured perspective. So there are immediate deviations before the signal goes to the pressing plant. Tricky stuff this hi-fi isn't it? -- Phil Leigh You want to see the signal path BEFORE it gets onto a CD/vinyl...it ain't what you'd call minimal...SB3+Stontronics PSU - Altmann JISCO/UPCI - TACT RCS 2.2X + Good Vibrations S/W - MF Triplethreat(Audiocom full mods)- Linn 5103 - Aktiv 5.1 system (6x LK140's, ESPEK/TRIKAN/KATAN/SEIZMIK 10.5), Townsend Supertweeters, Kimber & Chord cables Outdoors: Boombox+Creative Sub (If I remember to turn it on...) Phil Leigh's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=85 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=45323 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Virtual Dynamics Power 3 2000% Profit Margin
As you know all electronics are "deviations" from the original signal. Even straight wire. It's just a matter of how much this deviation influences the listening experience. I'm sorry to say, but there's nothing that assures us that the KORA "deviation" (in my example) is more influencing than the NAD one. :) How about if the Kora makes the speakers produce less distortion when delivering their signal on an average load ? Just an example. -- Themis SB3 - Denon 3808 - Sonus Faber Grand Piano Domus Themis's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=14700 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=45323 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Virtual Dynamics Power 3 2000% Profit Margin
On the available data it almost certainly is closer...on paper. I'm not saying that these figures are all that matters. However, higher distortion and non-flat freq response do mean deviation from the original input signal - no matter what else is happening. The first job an amp has to do is keep noise, distortion etc as low as possible and to attain a flat response within sensible boundaries (say 20-20kHz) without causing out-of-band effects. Then it has to have an adequately high slew rate and damping factor and unconstrained current delivery...blah blah. In other words " a straight wire with gain". The Kora may sound "better" (actually just different) to the NAD - but it almost certainly will NOT sound closer to the original signal, amplified. I don't want my amps to be FX. ymmv -- Phil Leigh You want to see the signal path BEFORE it gets onto a CD/vinyl...it ain't what you'd call minimal...SB3+Stontronics PSU - Altmann JISCO/UPCI - TACT RCS 2.2X + Good Vibrations S/W - MF Triplethreat(Audiocom full mods)- Linn 5103 - Aktiv 5.1 system (6x LK140's, ESPEK/TRIKAN/KATAN/SEIZMIK 10.5), Townsend Supertweeters, Kimber & Chord cables Outdoors: Boombox+Creative Sub (If I remember to turn it on...) Phil Leigh's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=85 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=45323 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Virtual Dynamics Power 3 2000% Profit Margin
opaqueice;339295 Wrote: > Well, first you should pass a level-matched blind test to make sure > you're not imagining things. If you can reliably distinguish AND you > prefer the Kora blind, it most likely means that you're hearing the > distortion (1% might be audible) and that you like the sound of music > with 1% harmonic distortion added. > > That's fine, it's your choice - but personally I'd prefer to hear > something closer to what the sound engineer heard when she mastered the > recording.That's exactly the point in which you're wrong : what makes YOU > think that the figures mean the NAD is closer to the original signal than the Kora ? These are only three figures. Do you _seriously_ believe a signal is objectively closer to the studio when [EMAIL PROTECTED], S/N ratio and frequency response are flat ? Are you _so_sure_ that there are no other figures involved ? I really wonder how you can assure yourself that these figures are enough. :) -- Themis SB3 - Denon 3808 - Sonus Faber Grand Piano Domus Themis's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=14700 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=45323 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Virtual Dynamics Power 3 2000% Profit Margin
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Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Virtual Dynamics Power 3 2000% Profit Margin
Themis;338929 Wrote: > > The NAD is half the price. Guess which one is more accurate ? :) > According to the measures, I should throw away the Kora but... anybody > who has listened to both of them can't really find these products are > equal. In fact the price difference reflects the actual difference > between them. The price - not the figures. Well, first you should pass a level-matched blind test to make sure you're not imagining things. If you can reliably distinguish AND you prefer the Kora blind, it most likely means that you're hearing the distortion (1% might be audible) and that you like the sound of music with 1% harmonic distortion added. That's fine, it's your choice - but personally I'd prefer to hear something closer to what the sound engineer heard when she mastered the recording. -- opaqueice opaqueice's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=4234 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=45323 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Virtual Dynamics Power 3 2000% Profit Margin
@Nonreality, that's it, at least you were wiser from the start. My wishful thinking got to me, but at least as honestguv stated I did learn my lesson. @haunyack, busted. Gotta make an app that removes gullibility as well. Can't wait to upload myself to the net and do some tweaking ;) @honestguv, I just said there should be some sort of oversight, be it a law or public ridicule is fine by me. There is not enough media coverage about this phenomena and when audiophiles are presented they always pick deranged people with too much money, same as what you describe. Similar thing is with (food) supplements, you can charge as much as you want and if you could claim whatever you want people would get scammed to the bone. It would be easy to imagine the effects, same as I see people close to me take supplements (fish oil and other crap) which is just another form of scams. It could help in theory but you sure would need a lot of it to notice for real without the placebo. So there is a law that you cannot claim unconfirmed properties of the supplement or a drug which requires blind testing and what not; I am not fully informed but I know you cannot lie in your drug description. They skew the description to pass the requirements but that is another story. Now I just want the same for electronics. Only problem is that we are not yet morally evolved enough and it seems silly to some of us. Yes I know that you cannot easily convert an audiophile to be a realist but that doesn't mean it is ok to let it be. Will it ever change if we don't revolt? While you are describing things as they are I don't see how that will convince me to let it go. Maybe you never got the rush I get occasionally when I hit the nail with the music choice while in the certain mood. You know those crazy music composers with funny hair and twitching in enjoyment...well suffice to say they don't look crazy to me. Technofilia kicks in because that is the only thing you can do to enhance the experience except talking drugs but that is a bad choice on the long run. What I didn't know is that the scam artists are waiting behind the optimum price point. Optimum price point being the amount for the mainstream equipment that sounds as good as possible with current technology. It is not just classical music that requires a good sound system, your point that audiophiles are mainly stupid and listen to pop music is strike 2 in my book. You do know that the word audiophile is not just to be used for the idiots? Audiophile is a person who is especially interested in high-fidelity sound reproduction (taken from the dictionary). It doesn't say a magic believer, that is your opinion by observing few of us that fallen to the tricks. Try to search for videophile HDMI cables. Now they even started with the USB cables, it sells and will continue to grow. There is no audiophiles and rest of the world, it is just down to exploiting our expectations as consumers. Pioneer started to shift toward the enthusiast range, expensive plasmas and receivers... Logitech bought Slimdevices and Harmony... Slimdevices by some miracle resisted the call and went down the more realistic approach raising usability instead of price which is really good and different...I guess that is why they are such success. But to focus my point; it is not to ban expensive equipment, it's just there should be some protocol to keep things under control so that there is no $10k cables on the market, no Teleportation tweaks and completely false advertisement because majority of people do experience placebo. It goes hand in hand with music enjoyment, could be tied to imagination. -- nuhi nuhi's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=10571 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=45323 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Virtual Dynamics Power 3 2000% Profit Margin
Perhaps I wasn't clear enough... here are two amplifiers from real life: KORA 90 SI: S/N : 100dB FreqResp: 7-40KHz @-3dB THD: 0.98% NAD C325BEE: S/N: 117 dB FreqResp: 3-70kHz @ +-0.1 dB THD: 0.02% The NAD is half the price. Guess which one is more accurate ? :) According to the measures, I should throw away the Kora but... anybody who has listened to both of them can't really find these products are equal. In fact the price difference reflects the actual difference between them. The price - not the figures. So it's not really what we do of these figures : it's simply that the mean something else. -- Themis SB3 - Denon 3808 - Sonus Faber Grand Piano Domus Themis's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=14700 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=45323 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Virtual Dynamics Power 3 2000% Profit Margin
Themis;338570 Wrote: > Sure I can : > > False fact #1: An amplifier with 0.1% THD @ 1KHz "sounds worse" or "is > not as accurate" or whatever else than another amplifier which has > 0.005% [EMAIL PROTECTED] Both amplifiers having the same S/N ratio and the > same > frequency response. > > False fact #2: A 1$ worth audio cable has no audible coloration in > sound. > > False fact #3: A DAC with 95dB S/N ratio "sounds worse" or "is not as > accurate" or whatever else than another DAC having a S/N ratio of > 110dB. Frequency response and THD being the same. > > Pseudo-scientists can be anything : diy-hobbyists, electronic > engineers, sellers, hifi critics.. . Not all of people of these > categories are such. The problem is that hifi is not a science and (as > such) it has no universal rules. The pseudo-scientists simplify truth > and are ready to throw to everybody's face their partial truth > disguised into a scientific, unquestionable, fact. Isn't it in how the science is used rather than if it's accurate? I mean the facts are right but the claims and conclusions are wrong. The science is there but it can be twisted to make people believe that something matters when in fact it doesn't. Like for example an amp with .2% THD @ 1KHz must be so much worse than than an amp with .005% THD @ 1KHz Way lower distortion, it's got to blow the other one away. It just makes sense. :) Unless you happen to know that the human ear can't hear distortion below (I think)1% you might fall prey to this kind of thinking. -- Nonreality -IF THE RULE YOU FOLLOWED BROUGHT YOU TO THIS, OF WHAT USE IS THE RULE.- HTTP://www.last.fm/user/nonreality Nonreality's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=15723 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=45323 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Virtual Dynamics Power 3 2000% Profit Margin
honestguv;338218 Wrote: > I am curious about these pseudo-scientists and inaccurate facts. Could > you please post an example or two. > > Are pseudo-scientists loonies that are unrelated to scientists?Sure I can : False fact #1: An amplifier with 0.1% THD @ 1KHz "sounds worse" or "is not as accurate" or whatever else than another amplifier which has 0.005% [EMAIL PROTECTED] Both amplifiers having the same S/N ratio and the same frequency response. False fact #2: A 1$ worth audio cable has no audible coloration in sound. False fact #3: A DAC with 95dB S/N ratio "sounds worse" or "is not as accurate" or whatever else than another DAC having a S/N ratio of 110dB. Frequency response and THD being the same. Pseudo-scientists can be anything : diy-hobbyists, electronic engineers, sellers, hifi critics.. . Not all of people of these categories are such. The problem is that hifi is not a science and (as such) it has no universal rules. The pseudo-scientists simplify truth and are ready to throw to anybody's face their partial -- Themis SB3 - Denon 3808 - Sonus Faber Grand Piano Domus Themis's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=14700 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=45323 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Virtual Dynamics Power 3 2000% Profit Margin
opaqueice;338448 Wrote: > Amazing, isn't it? > > I suspect it's because cables are among the highest margin items they > sell. Don't you mean "Peddle"? -- iPhone *iPhone* 'Last.FM' (http://www.last.fm/user/mephone) Media Room: Transporter, VTL TL-6.5 Signature Pre-Amp, Ayre MX-R Mono's, Vandersteen Quatro, VeraStarr 6.4SE 6-channel Amp, VCC-5 Reference Center, four VSM-1 Signatures, Runco RS 900 CineWide AutoScope 2.35:1 Living Room: Duet, ADCOM GTP-870HD, Cinepro 3K6SE III Gold, Vandersteen Model 3A Signature, Two 2Wq subs, VCC-2, Two VSM-1 Kitchen: Squeezebox BOOM Bedroom: SB3, NAD C370, Thiel 2.3 Home Office: SB3, Parasound Vamp v.3, two VSM-1 Mobile: SB3, Audioengine A5 iPhone's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=13622 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=45323 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Virtual Dynamics Power 3 2000% Profit Margin
Nonreality;338354 Wrote: > I thought we were talking about cables not cars? ;) Amazing, isn't it? I suspect it's because cables are among the highest margin items they sell. -- opaqueice opaqueice's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=4234 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=45323 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Virtual Dynamics Power 3 2000% Profit Margin
opaqueice;338305 Wrote: > There are lots of potential problems: high pressure sales tactics, > false advertising, bait and switch, etc. etc. Many common practices in > cables selling at least verge on some of those. Whether they actually > cross the line is not for me to decide, but as I said I wouldn't be > surprised if there's a regulatory crackdown at some point. I thought we were talking about cables not cars? ;) -- Nonreality -IF THE RULE YOU FOLLOWED BROUGHT YOU TO THIS, OF WHAT USE IS THE RULE.- HTTP://www.last.fm/user/nonreality Nonreality's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=15723 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=45323 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Virtual Dynamics Power 3 2000% Profit Margin
honestguv;338213 Wrote: > > The cables are not defective and normal cables are available at normal > prices if people prefer to buy them. Where is the problem? There are lots of potential problems: high pressure sales tactics, false advertising, bait and switch, etc. etc. Many common practices in cables selling at least verge on some of those. Whether they actually cross the line is not for me to decide, but as I said I wouldn't be surprised if there's a regulatory crackdown at some point. -- opaqueice opaqueice's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=4234 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=45323 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Virtual Dynamics Power 3 2000% Profit Margin
Themis;338180 Wrote: > Sound pseudo-scientists have exposed too many false facts (disguised as > "scientific" truths) during the last 30 years. Really too many > inaccurate "facts". I wonder who lives in a "flat world" : audiophiles > or these sound "scientists" ? I am curious about these pseudo-scientists and inaccurate facts. Could you please post an example or two. Are pseudo-scientists loonies that are unrelated to scientists? -- honestguv honestguv's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=13734 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=45323 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Virtual Dynamics Power 3 2000% Profit Margin
Opaqueice, > Still, I wouldn't be too surprised if something happens with cables here in > the States considering the prevalence of expensive cables at just about all > the major electronics retailers. The cables are not defective and normal cables are available at normal prices if people prefer to buy them. Where is the problem? > I vaguely recall that something like that happened with amplifiers in the 70s, > which is why they now all report THD+N figures etc. Yes there was a move in the 70s towards the state enforcing more meaningful technical specifications on behalf of the public particularly in countries like Germany. Only a few months ago I found some correspondence from this era inside the sleeve of an LP test record discussing a proposed standard for record players. And then the industry went audiophile... > Audiophiles are audio hobbyists. Yes but audio hobbyists are not necessarily audiophiles. Audiophile is an ambiguous word and I was using it in the manner of a non-audiophile to refer to those that hold audiophile beliefs. Although a positive word to audiophiles (it is a word they use to describe themselves) and widely used as such in marketing, to others it would be a mildly derogatory term because of the scientifically invalid beliefs. Audio enthusiasts that held a scientific view rather than an audiophile view would not be called audiophiles. But I am aware that others, particularly the young, can use the word audiophile to mean all audio enthusiasts. It is ambiguous but I had assumed (incorrectly) that my use was clear from the context. -- honestguv honestguv's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=13734 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=45323 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Virtual Dynamics Power 3 2000% Profit Margin
honestguv;338028 Wrote: > The audiophile sector split from the sound/audio mainstream and created > an isolated world in which "flat earth" beliefs can thrive and they > have indeed grown more extreme over the 30 years life of the sector.Sound > pseudo-scientists have exposed too many false facts (disguised as "scientific" truths) during the last 30 years. Really too many inaccurate "facts". I wonder who lives in a "flat world" : audiophiles or these sound "scientists" ? -- Themis SB3 - Denon 3808 - Sonus Faber Grand Piano Domus Themis's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=14700 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=45323 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Virtual Dynamics Power 3 2000% Profit Margin
honestguv;338028 Wrote: > You disagree with my distinction between lies and misleading despite > there being existing laws about the former which are occasionally > invoked when cable companies cross the line from misleading to lies. I really don't think that happens very often. Those laws are intended to protect consumers, and some types of consumers need protection much more than others. Still, I wouldn't be too surprised if something happens with cables here in the States considering the prevalence of expensive cables at just about all the major electronics retailers. I vaguely recall that something like that happened with amplifiers in the 70s, which is why they now all report THD+N figures etc. > I suggest you try converting a few of the posters here that believe in > audiophiles cables. There aren't so many here... we've scared most of them off :). > You believe audiophiles are music loving enthusiasts which I would > partly agree with and partly disagree with. Audiophiles are audio hobbyists. If they all have something in common, it's that they're willing to spend inordinate amounts of cash on two-channel stereo systems. For example (given a mild set of caveats) I don't believe cables make any difference to sound, or amplifiers if they are adequate, or digital sources. However I do believe (and can prove) that speakers and their placement make an enormous difference... so I own a set of expensive and exotic speakers. That probably makes me an audiophile, but I don't fit any of the characterizations you gave. I listen to music all the time, I play an instrument, but unfortunately I'm infected with the incurable audiophile disease - I'm constantly tweaking things (speaker placement, Inguz, frequency balance) to try to improve sound quality. -- opaqueice opaqueice's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=4234 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=45323 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Virtual Dynamics Power 3 2000% Profit Margin
Nuhi, Despite your cables being technically perfect (i.e. not audibly degrading the signal) and the marketing working for you subjectively, at least for a while, in persuading you to perceive whatever you were after, something still ought to be done about audiophile cables? You no longer seem to be suggesting laws and the state but that the audiophile community should do something about it? You disagree with my distinction between lies and misleading despite there being existing laws about the former which are occasionally invoked when cable companies cross the line from misleading to lies. At least in the places where they are not allowed to tell lies. One cannot use technical performance to sell expensive home audio equipment when it has the same technical performance as cheap home audio equipment. You have to use marketing to distinguish the expensive from the cheap in a manner that will appeal sufficiently to some consumers that respond to this kind of thing. Clearly these consumers cannot be technically literate and, indeed, audiophiles are not technically literate and do not want a technical education about sound and audio. You do not believe the latter perhaps because of your partial conversion to the path of "truth and light" but you are fairly rare which is what piqued my interest. I suggest you try converting a few of the posters here that believe in audiophiles cables. You believe audiophiles are music loving enthusiasts which I would partly agree with and partly disagree with. They are enthusiastic about consuming audiophile equipment and the illusions that surround it and so I have no problem with enthusiasm. It is claims that they are enthusiastic about music that is harder to support with evidence. The overwhelming majority listen to electronic pop music which is fine except it is not the kind of rich and challenging music favoured by those with a deep and genuine interest in music. Few play musical instruments which is unusual for those with a deep and genuine interest in music. Few purchase accurate sounding equipment of the type used by those involved with music. Indeed many favour audibly deficient sound produced by valve amplifiers, record players, tailored speakers, etc... Few seem able to recognise what is causing differences in sound and tend to go along with those that suggest it is due to audiophile magic. It is hard to believe that someone with a genuine interest in sound quality would not acquire this since it is easy enough to do given that everybody these days has a personal computer. Etc... I would suggest one could probably make the case that if one discounts the non-audiophile believing public that has no interest in music then what is left probably has a deeper interest in music than audiophiles. Although I am not 100% sure I understand the parallels you are trying to draw with video equipment the two are quite different kinds of market. The audiophile sector split from the sound/audio mainstream and created an isolated world in which "flat earth" beliefs can thrive and they have indeed grown more extreme over the 30 years life of the sector. This is not the case with the home digital video sector which is relatively new and part of the mainstrem. It is much more constrained by technical performance because technical performance does distinguish products in a way that it does not for many home audio products. Finally, there are relatively few videophiles compared to audiophiles. People buy video equipment more like they buy fridges than audiophile equipment as reflected in the lack of specialist press for videophiles (and fridgeophiles). -- honestguv honestguv's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=13734 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=45323 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Virtual Dynamics Power 3 2000% Profit Margin
Hey nuhi, Are you the author of the most excellent nLite/vLite apps? . -- haunyack haunyack's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=9721 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=45323 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Virtual Dynamics Power 3 2000% Profit Margin
Never buy cables at a big-box electronics store (or at a high-end audio shop, for that matter). This place has quality stuff at very reasonable prices: http://www.monoprice.com/home/index.asp . Or go with bluejeans for the best quality. -- opaqueice opaqueice's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=4234 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=45323 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Virtual Dynamics Power 3 2000% Profit Margin
It's not just the high end places that do this, ripping people off on cables seems to be the new black. I was in Best Buy yesterday (looking for a Boom, I don't tend to go in there often otherwise). They didn't have a single HDMI cable in the place under $70, and most were $100+ (I bought some very nice ones for about $5 each a while back). Wallplates for speaker wiring were $60 each (vs $2-5 online). TV mounts were easily 3-4x the price they should be. It's one thing when rich audiophiles want to drop $500 on a silver cable, it's quite another thing when big box stores rip off ordinary people who just don't know any better. Makes me mad. -- radish radish's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=77 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=45323 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Virtual Dynamics Power 3 2000% Profit Margin
nuhi;337471 Wrote: > Try to shorten if there is any future response, this is barely > maintainable as a casual reply. > > > Wasn't that stated above, a hobby. > But the premise was wrong as I would always get back to the same issues > (in my case the sibilance). I would buy more expensive cables and > thought it gets better each time. > New purchase would tame the issue for a little while; weird situation > but that is exactly the danger I am talking about, takes your money and > time in vain and it seems real while thousands of people are telling you > "try this one, it is warmer sounding". > > > For the adult in that example yes of course. For the child no because > it is normal in our culture. > For our example where you tell me to chill and enjoy my knowledge I say > that is not how I can feel, I would like everyone to know the truth. I > can only be angry at myself, not proud. > So you were not like "who cares, at least I got trough", fine then drop > this. > > > You are trying to generalize my objections. I say in this example it is > a pure lie about the product. Every product has to have some truth in > how it was presented. > When you buy a diamond you bought it because it looks nice and it is a > proof of devotion, not because it cures cancer. > Don't confuse luxury and marketing with selling a 100% lie by > exploiting virtually unknown perception glitch. > > > Missing the point once again. I am not talking about solving world > hunger, I am saying that the audiophiles should care about the real > difference in sound, then it comes to looks and prestige. > > So I am not saying how it is, just saying how I would like it to be. > Sure those products then wouldn't be in this much variations as today. > Audio market sector, you mean those ugly looking rack components with > thousand of I/O ports and LEDs. > I would like them to mix with the audiophile/consumer sector. > Not asking you for funding, just saying. > > > There is a lot of progress to be done in speakers and mics as you > stated and with the room interaction. Then power consumption and size > of the components. > But eventually it is not my problem, lying to me sure isn't the moral > answer as the point of the discussion was long, long time ago. > > > We the unbelievers, audiophile realists, those that got convinced that > the scientists are not just full of it. You don't have to be in we, I > don't really know what you believe. > > > I am obsessed with quality in general, striving towards perfection as > some would say. > Unfortunately the audiophile market targets those with the similar > traits/flaws. If it was so easy to change amplifiers and speakers I > would do the same but nothing beats simple cable switching. Don't > forget the most important part that I heard the difference every time. > There was no need for further justification, I did not know it can be > all imagined, wasn't a medical college student. > > > That is a bitter and unreasonable statement. I am not rich nor > generally foolish, I just like music and tweaking. > As far as I understood your position so far it is that the audiophiles > are foolish, rich, can't be and don't want to be helped. > Well then we have nothing more to discuss, with that sort of > generalization everything else is a moot point. Lets move some of that > money to the lying thieves, they deserve it as they are poor and > sneaky. > > > At first you say before we did not believe in audio fairy tales and now > that same audiophiles drove the industry. > Maybe I could remove the contradiction if you meant that audiophiles > before were purely scientific but then they are not the cable believers > we are talking about. > > Today's hi-end plasma screens are quite expensive and serve as an > analogy to the luxury audio components. Point is the result is the same > in today's video market without any boost in the past by the > superstitious. > I have nothing against expensive screens, they do look different, even > being tested with the calibrating equipment. > > I'm not really interested in discussing the past of the industry, more > we broaden the discussion less sense it makes. > > > Well from where does your audiophile gets his reference? Price? > > As far as I know they go to concerts or draw it from every day sounds. > Sounds to me like you don't see audiophiles as a music loving > enthusiasts. > Only because they can be tricked while searching for that elusive > perfect sound field does not mean they should be ignored and left to > the wolves. I know what you feel. The last time, about 8 mths ago, I bought a new receiver, the store I was at made me feel like I was the either the cheapest person alive or the dumbest for spending under 80 bucks per cable. They pushed so hard that ended up telling them I would never buy from them again. It was the worst buying experience that I've ever had and that includes cars. Small town, limited choices and I was in an impulsive mo
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Virtual Dynamics Power 3 2000% Profit Margin
Try to shorten if there is any future response, this is barely maintainable as a casual reply. honestguv;337405 Wrote: > > What were you enjoying when you believed in audiophile cables? > Wasn't that stated above, hobby that is fun and passes the time while chasing the dragon. But the premise was wrong as I would always get back to the same issues (in my case the sibilance). I would buy more expensive cables and thought it gets better each time. New purchase would tame the issue for a little while; weird situation but that is exactly the danger I am talking about, takes your money and time in vain and it seems real while thousands of people are telling you "try this one, it is warmer sounding". > > > While discussing about the unfairness of the particular business it > is not my priority > > to look down on naive masses, > > We seem to be back to appearances, content and children. Would you look > down on a child for believing in Father Christmas? Would you look down > on an adult that believed in Father Christmas? Is the emotional content > of "looking down" a requirement if you recognise someone is wrong? > For the adult in that example yes of course. For the child no because it is normal in our culture. For our example where you tell me to chill and enjoy my knowledge I say that is not how I can feel, I would like everyone to know the truth. I can only be angry on myself, not proud. So you were not like "who cares, at least I got trough", fine then drop this. > > Why is the business unfair? It is selling expensive luxury goods and > the illusions that go with luxury goods. In free(ish) societies the > individual can decide what the luxury goods are worth to them. Do you > really have a problem with this? Perhaps the taxpayers should fund an > anti-luxury goods education programme? > You are trying to generalize my objections. I say in this example it is a pure lie about the product. Every product has to have some truth in how it was presented. When you buy a diamond you bought it because it looks nice and it is a proof of devotion, not because it cures cancer. Don't confuse luxury and marketing with selling a 100% lie by exploiting virtually unknown perception glitch. > > > I would like them to know and we as a collective move on to produce > something that > > really matters. > > Audiophile products are luxury goods and, pretty much by definition, do > not matter in any important sense. Audiophiles do not buy audiophile > products for reasons of sound quality or else record players, valve > amplifiers, magic cables, etc... would not be on the market. They buy > them for the same reasons they buy other luxury goods and there is > nothing wrong with this. > > If you have a genuine interest in sound quality then buy products from > the audio market sector that has a pragmatic interest in sound quality. > Go to a music shop for your equipment. > Missing the point once again. I am not talking about solving world hunger, I am saying that the audiophiles should care about the real difference in sound, then it comes to looks and prestige. So I am not saying how it is, just saying how I would like it to be. Sure those products then wouldn't be in this much variations as today. Audio market sector, you mean those ugly looking rack components with thousand of I/O ports and LEDs. I would like them to mix with the audiophile/consumer sector. Not asking you for funding, just saying. > > > Drive market for real sonic difference. > > Apart from the obvious like speakers and microphones, there aren't any > sonic differences for competently made audio equipment. This was one of > the main driving forces behind the creation of the audiophile industry > in the 1970s. What business case exists for a publication that reviews > home audio products in a technically valid manner? How can a > manufacturer of electronic audio goods maintain profit margins and > avoid the products becoming essentially commodities? > There is a lot of progress to be done in speakers and mics as you stated and with the room interaction. Then power consumption and size of the components. But eventually it is not my problem, lying to me sure isn't the moral answer as the point of the discussion was long, long time ago. > > >> You don't think the pros outweighed the cons for you with audio > cables? > > > > Sure it has some general benefits, if you call paranoia to be conned > a benefit. > > I don't have the time nor the money to be scammed into every bit of > knowledge out > > there, we should educate more about this phenomena. > > Who is this "we". The taxpayers? The audiophile community? > We the unbelievers, audiophile realists, those that got convinced that the scientists are not just full of it. You don't have to be in we, I don't really know what you believe. > > I am aware of the price of audiophile cables because they are often > ridiculed in the press and on websites. I am aware that people become > obsessed wi
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Virtual Dynamics Power 3 2000% Profit Margin
> Ignorance is bliss means you can fool yourself, for some unknowingly, and enjoy in the > hobby while the reality of things is not that fruitful. I am not sure I would agree. If you consider enjoying art such as books, music, movies and such then being ignorant (not knowing) about the construction and the mechanisms used to hold interest and manipulate the emotions allows one to respond to it in its rawest/purest/naivest form - bliss. Knowing something about the mechanisms will lead to a different and more knowing experience in which additional things may be appreciated but it will usually lessen the emotional response - less bliss. Audiophiles are not simply ignorant (absence of knowledge), they do not hold beliefs about matters that science cannot prove or disprove like traditional religious beliefs, they hold "flat-earth" beliefs that are scientifically wrong. In general audiophiles are aware of the view of sound professionals and the educated but consider them to be wrong and their beliefs to be right. This is a lot more than simple ignorance and what drives it bears no resemblance to a professional's pragmatic interest in sound quality. > Don't question while you enjoy. Enjoying can also be being frustrated and trying every > cable out there, having some sort of a goal to pass the time aka hobby. What were you enjoying when you believed in audiophile cables? > While discussing about the unfairness of the particular business it is not my priority > to look down on naive masses, We seem to be back to appearances, content and children. Would you look down on a child for believing in Father Christmas? Would you look down on an adult that believed in Father Christmas? Is the emotional content of "looking down" a requirement if you recognise someone is wrong? Why is the business unfair? It is selling expensive luxury goods and the illusions that go with luxury goods. In free(ish) societies the individual can decide what the luxury goods are worth to them. Do you really have a problem with this? Perhaps the taxpayers should fund an anti-luxury goods education programme? > I would like them to know and we as a collective move on to produce something that > really matters. Audiophile products are luxury goods and, pretty much by definition, do not matter in any important sense. Audiophiles do not buy audiophile products for reasons of sound quality or else record players, valve amplifiers, magic cables, etc... would not be on the market. They buy them for the same reasons they buy other luxury goods and there is nothing wrong with this. If you have a genuine interest in sound quality then buy products from the audio market sector that has a pragmatic interest in sound quality. Go to a music shop for your equipment. > Drive market for real sonic difference. Apart from the obvious like speakers and microphones, there aren't any sonic differences for competently made audio equipment. This was one of the main driving forces behind the creation of the audiophile industry in the 1970s. What business case exists for a publication that reviews home audio products in a technically valid manner? How can a manufacturer of electronic audio goods maintain profit margins and avoid the products becoming essentially commodities? > Room correction has a lot to be desired. Room correction is fairly cheap and has a substantial impact not only for music but also for conversation as well. However, it does not really fit in with the audiophile luxury goods thing. Electronic boxes for room correction are being pushed at the moment and do work to a limited extent. We will have to see if audiophiles take an interest. >> You don't think the pros outweighed the cons for you with audio cables? > > Sure it has some general benefits, if you call paranoia to be conned a benefit. > I don't have the time nor the money to be scammed into every bit of knowledge out > there, we should educate more about this phenomena. Who is this "we". The taxpayers? The audiophile community? How cables work is taught in schools, is available in countless book and on the internet. It is trivial to find out for anyone with the slightest inclination to do so. As far as I know, most people are fully aware that adverts and salesmen are trying to mislead them into purchasing something and treat the information accordingly. Most people reading that bumpf from a cable company posted earlier would recognise what is going on and view the product accordingly. It is only audiophiles that do not. As I am sure you know, audiophiles do not want to be educated about sound, sound perception and how audio equipment works. They are perfectly entitled not to do so but they are not going to get a sympathetic response if they complain about the consequences. > It seems to me you are not aware how expensive some cables are and how strong the > drive is to spend all your money on it without end in sight. I am aware of the price of audiophile cables becaus
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Virtual Dynamics Power 3 2000% Profit Margin
I always smile when I read bout 2,000% profit/markup and how heated people get - makes me realise how little people actually know about what happens in retail. (back story: I come from a family that has a 'family' buisness of 200 stores in the UK, which the family actually sold for many many millions about 10 years ago). I was asked by my father to write a program that would allow him to correctly price up some bespoke furniture, a bedroom or lounge etc. He wanted to make sure he a had a fast way of calculating the real price, so he could do his selling. When I had the software ready I aked him to give me the base proces for the items in the various ranges - and I had to check back, as the base prices for a range that sold for £8,000 was the SAME as the price for a £900 range. And the reply was, 'of course its the same, we make only 100% markup on the £900 range, which is the one that draws people into the shop, the salesmans job is to switch the customer to buy the £8,000 range'. Thats one of those moments you never forget! BT -- BigTony We're Only In It For The Music! www.zappateers.com BigTony's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=10638 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=45323 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Virtual Dynamics Power 3 2000% Profit Margin
honestguv;336868 Wrote: > > > Basically you are saying ignorance is bliss and ends justify the > means. > Not in the slightest. > > Ignorance is a requirement to be an audiophile but it does not seem to > lead to bliss... > You went full speed ahead for the literal bliss but that was not the point. Ignorance is bliss means you can fool yourself, for some unknowingly, and enjoy in the hobby while the reality of things is not that fruitful. Don't question while you enjoy. Enjoying can also be being frustrated and trying every cable out there, having some sort of a goal to pass the time aka hobby. > > >> So why don't you enjoy being smarter than an audiophile believer? > > I am not that shallow. > > I would suggest that there is a big difference between wishing to be > seen as smart when talking to an audiophile and actually being smart. > The latter is something almost wholly beneficial and to be enjoyed. It > is not shallow. > While discussing about the unfairness of the particular business it is not my priority to look down on naive masses, I would like them to know and we as a collective move on to produce something that really matters. Drive market for real sonic difference. Room correction has a lot to be desired. > > > I have to pay and be embarrassed because we allow these con masters > to operate > > and that's a good thing? > > Being wiser is a good thing. The price is a bit of embarrassment and > some money. You don't think the pros outweighed the cons for you with > audio cables? > Sure it has some general benefits, if you call paranoia to be conned a benefit. I don't have the time nor the money to be scammed into every bit of knowledge out there, we should educate more about this phenomena. > > > Lets con kids and teach them a lesson, those idiots can be talked > into > > anything. > > Indeed. One has the choice of expecting society to remove all nasties > or teaching kids how to recognise and deal with the nasties. When it > comes to harmless silly luxury goods like magic cables I know which I > prefer. > It seems to me you are not aware how expensive some cables are and how strong the drive is to spend all your money on it without end in sight. I disagree that scamming is the best way to teach. Law should state that you cannot make false sensory arguments or something down those lines. Maybe even a blind test passed certificate (I know some will find that funny). > > Although a close call, on balance I think audiophile cables and the > audiophile industry are a good thing. > > The upside is that the developed world has a home audio industry with > all the benefits that derive from this... So you assume audiophiles and superstition boosted the audio industry. What happened to that "before we did not believe in cables"? Seems contradictory. What about plasma TVs; did videophiles on b&w screen TVs drove the today's industry as well. We all want nice pic and sound because reality is the reference. -- nuhi nuhi's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=10571 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=45323 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Virtual Dynamics Power 3 2000% Profit Margin
>> Exotic audiophile cables are luxury goods. The manufacturers and suppliers of >> luxury goods invest a lot of time and effort building positive associations >> that their customers pick up along with the product. > > They are being lied to. Lied is too strong. Marketing is about creating a positive subjective impression by misleading and building associations that do not exist objectively. A few magic cable companies cross the line and make false objective statements (lies) but they are the exception rather than the rule. Most cable company bumpf is too vague and incomprehensible to be pinned down to something concrete as can be seen from Opaqueice's example above. > Basically you are saying ignorance is bliss and ends justify the means. Not in the slightest. Ignorance is a requirement to be an audiophile but it does not seem to lead to bliss. Once sound quality is above a fairly modest threshold non-audiophiles will hear only the music - bliss. Audiophiles on the other hand will divert some of their attention to the sound of the equipment, what other people think of the equipment, etc... - not bliss. If audiophiles could fool themselves into really believing in the magic then maybe it would lead to bliss but if you read some of the postings from audiophiles preparing to test their abilities to perceive audiophile magic it is clear that only a small number are true believers. Most have doubts when they get called, bluster and then back out. >> So why don't you enjoy being smarter than an audiophile believer? > > I am not that shallow. I would suggest that there is a big difference between wishing to be seen as smart when talking to an audiophile and actually being smart. The latter is something almost wholly beneficial and to be enjoyed. It is not shallow. >> Don't you feel you have grown wiser from the experience? Isn't that worth >> some mild embarrassment and a bit of money? > > I have to pay and be embarrassed because we allow these con masters to operate > and that's a good thing? Being wiser is a good thing. The price is a bit of embarrassment and some money. You don't think the pros outweighed the cons for you with audio cables? People value knowledge differently and audiophiles are obviously at the opposite end of the spectrum to those that are interested in how the world works. They tend to believe that everyone should perform experiments for themselves to determine the performance of audiophile products. This type of thinking started to wane centuries ago when we emerged from the Dark Ages and people wanted to do something about educating themselves and their children in order to better cope with the world around them. > Lets con kids and teach them a lesson, those idiots can be talked into > anything. Indeed. One has the choice of expecting society to remove all nasties or teaching kids how to recognise and deal with the nasties. When it comes to harmless silly luxury goods like magic cables I know which I prefer. > We are so lost that we need to ignore the truth in order to be 'happy'. I am not sure happiness has much to do with being an audiophile. To me it looks more to do with raising social status. Comparing equipment is really important to audiophiles and they consider themselves to be sophisticated when it comes to appreciating musical reproduction. Unfortunately their basis is a set of "flat-earth" beliefs which are largely recognised as such by the mainstream which is most unhelpful in this respect. > When someone exploits that we shouldn't be quiet. Unless you don't care of > course, more power to you. I think we may view the situation differently and consequently care about different things. Although a close call, on balance I think audiophile cables and the audiophile industry are a good thing. The downside is that it encourages faith over evidence. Using this to flog luxury goods like audiophile cables that are poor value in terms of technical performance is not a problem in itself because it is harmless. This is mostly certainly not the case in other areas where faith over evidence leads to substantial harm and I do tend to get a bit worked up. But I will stay on topic here. The upside is that the developed world has a home audio industry with all the benefits that derive from this. After the boom of the 60/70s producing home audio in the developed world to be sold on technical performance was no longer really viable and companies that continued trying to do this largely ceased trading although many of the brands still exist today. The home audio companies in the developed world that were successful switched to using a strategy based on marketing perceived performance which was only possible because the home audio consumer press also changed dramatically in order to allow such an approach. The mainstream audiophile industry was born and after a year or two people like Noel Lee recognised that it could not only be used to shift uncompetitive home audi
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Virtual Dynamics Power 3 2000% Profit Margin
Deaf Cat;336674 Wrote: > I for one, in some people's eyes pay silly money for cables, and, I > don't care if its placebo or a technical reality, what ever it is, it's > been well worth the £5 pcm for the last 4 years (since last cable > purchase). Simply down to the gain in pleasure and enjoyment of > listening to music. > > These purchases are throughly researched and tested, untill, I'm happy > to part with the hard earnt cash. If the gain is not worth all the > hard work and parting with the cash, the gain comes from else where, > food ;-) > > Basically I'm saying if spending cash on something that's going to > bring you lasting enjoyment, does it matter what it is? > > If as you say its placebo, why has someone not invented the holiday > feeling pill for normal work days :-) Let it be clear I am not saying that the customers like you are the ones to blame, you don't have to explain yourself, many of us can hear the difference. Obviously you still don't know it really is placebo effect. Even medicine must go through blind testing because of this phenomena. It is not me saying, it is every scientist out there saying and every test ever taken place confirming. There is not one (1) properly done blind test confirming that people can hear the difference between cables. For some time you could even win a million dollars if you pass the test (maybe it's still on - Randi Million Dollars challenge). Why am I so convinced? Well because I read about the research, searched for months for a positive answer and finally taken a few blind tests which changed my opinion. I still have all my expensive cables, including power ones...yup I was a chronic believer. All the pleasure you got from that purchase is because of the doubt marketing filled you with, so called "piece of mind" when one pays more. You would hear exactly the same music with the plain cables and you can give the same argument about the pleasure for any purchase. -- nuhi nuhi's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=10571 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=45323 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Virtual Dynamics Power 3 2000% Profit Margin
Deaf Cat;336674 Wrote: > ... > If as you say its placebo, why has someone not invented the holiday > feeling pill for normal work days :-) Oh, but they did. It's called 'having enough money'. K -- slimkid Where does the light go when you turn the switch off? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7iAj2aPdQnk http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VvMNuuFSvN0 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BDRhRv4q_SI http://youtube.com/watch?v=nlrpe8Ig5m8 http://youtube.com/watch?v=dC9tGlwPln8 ATGATT: Because walking away in disgust beats riding away in an ambulance. slimkid's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=8881 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=45323 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Virtual Dynamics Power 3 2000% Profit Margin
nuhi;336109 Wrote: > Because it is immoral to sell cables for these prices knowing that all > the sonic difference is based on a placebo effect. > I for one, in some people's eyes pay silly money for cables, and, I don't care if its placebo or a technical reality, what ever it is, it's been well worth the £5 pcm for the last 4 years (since last cable purchase). Simply down to the gain in pleasure and enjoyment of listening to music. These purchases are throughly researched and tested, untill, I'm happy to part with the hard earnt cash. If the gain is not worth all the hard work and parting with the cash, the gain comes from else where, food ;-) Basically I'm saying if spending cash on something that's going to bring you lasting enjoyment, does it matter what it is? If as you say its placebo, why has someone not invented the holiday feeling pill for normal work days :-) -- Deaf Cat Deaf Cat's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=515 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=45323 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Virtual Dynamics Power 3 2000% Profit Margin
honestguv;336358 Wrote: > Why is it immoral? Exotic audiophile cables are luxury goods. The > manufacturers and suppliers of luxury goods invest a lot of time and > effort building positive associations that their customers pick up > along with the product. They are being lied to. Basically you are saying ignorance is bliss and ends justify the means. > > If a 5 year old child said the same thing would you be annoyed? So why > don't you enjoy being smarter than an audiophile believer? > I am not that shallow. > > Don't you feel you have grown wiser from the experience? Isn't that > worth some mild embarrassment and a bit of money? > I have to pay and be embarrassed because we allow these con masters to operate and that's a good thing? Lets con kids and teach them a lesson, those idiots can be talked into anything. > > Why post if you do not want to discuss it? > That's just a preemptive setup to ignore cable pseudo-science. What you are discussing is philosophy which interests me as I want to understand your view. > > People are people. The trend away from reason towards faith is a fairly > recent phenomenon after hundreds of years of moving in the other > direction. The forces behind it are well illustrated by your audiophile > cables. 30 years ago essentially nobody believed in magic audio cables > but look at the situation today. Interesting no? In consumerism yes. That is interesting and desperate. We are so lost that we need to ignore the truth in order to be 'happy'. When someone exploits that we shouldn't be quiet. Unless you don't care of course, more power to you. -- nuhi nuhi's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=10571 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=45323 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Virtual Dynamics Power 3 2000% Profit Margin
honestguv;336363 Wrote: > So the placebo effect is not real? Of course it is... but audio cables aren't marketed for how effectively they delude you into thinking they make a difference :-). > It is usually a problem if an objective statement is made for which the > advertiser cannot supply supporting evidence if challenged. Most > advertising does not make false objective statements but seeks to build > positive associations. Here's some copy from a very large (monstrous, one might say) cable manufacturer: > With extra-heavy gauge low and mid frequency conductors for added power > alongside dedicated high frequency windings, Z200is Bandwidth > Balanced® technology brings sonic depth, accuracy and power to every > signal. Special MicroFiber®-wrapped MultiTwist® windings and Time > Correct® construction bring out every detail by minimizing inter > transient noise, improving dynamic range and reducing dispersive time > smear. All Z Series interconnects come sheathed in a 100% copper mylar > foil hugged tightly by a 95% braided copper inner jacket for the > ultimate rejection of outside noise and interference. Add to this our > innovative HDP (high density polymer) insulator for vastly improved > signal transfer and dramatically reduced dielectric losses. Wrap it all > in a black nylon mesh outer jacket and youve got an audiophile cable > that sounds and looks great. It's true that they are rather careful to avoid saying anything with any meaning. For example, "improved signal transfer" - improved relative to what, exactly? I'm sure their signal transfer capabilities are superior to a stick, so it's not exactly false. -- opaqueice opaqueice's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=4234 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=45323 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Virtual Dynamics Power 3 2000% Profit Margin
Themis;335881 Wrote: > I agree with you on this point, it's the same to me. But, I suppose that > some people feel a $500 cable is an equally relevant value for them, and > it's hard (for me) to laugh at them simply because I use a different > value-measuring method. Objectively, even the author is probably as > ridiculous regarding his own choices for other things, so... what's the > point in spending all this energy at "ridiculizing" these poor cables ? > I wonder.I'm not laughing at them but I do think that they are getting > scammed. If the statements made by these cable companies were looked into they would fall into the false claim category. But they change their claims all the time and knowing that there is very little teeth in the truth in advertising laws they sit back a rake in the bucks. It is the snake oil of audiophile equipment and it's recognized as such. But people really want to get the edge in their sound and fall prey all the time. It's not at all like buying a cd. The cd is cheap but the music is not. You are paying the artists and the recording company. It's not 15 bucks of junk that you pay 300 for. Have you ever noticed that some of the breakin periods of these cables is longer than the warranty if they have one? Nice stuff. -- Nonreality -IF THE RULE YOU FOLLOWED BROUGHT YOU TO THIS, OF WHAT USE IS THE RULE.- HTTP://www.last.fm/user/nonreality Nonreality's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=15723 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=45323 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Virtual Dynamics Power 3 2000% Profit Margin
opaqueice;336332 Wrote: > But Monster and other cable manufacturers advertise their cables as > improving audio quality (when they obviously don't). So the placebo effect is not real? opaqueice;336332 Wrote: > That's false advertising and probably illegal. It is usually a problem if an objective statement is made for which the advertiser cannot supply supporting evidence if challenged. Most advertising does not make false objective statements but seeks to build positive associations. But here is an advertiser of magic audiophile cables falling foul of the UK Advertising Standards Authority: http://www.asa.org.uk/asa/adjudications/Public/TF_ADJ_44177.htm -- honestguv honestguv's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=13734 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=45323 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Virtual Dynamics Power 3 2000% Profit Margin
nuhi;336109 Wrote: > Because it is immoral to sell cables for these prices knowing that all > the sonic difference is based on a placebo effect. Why is it immoral? Exotic audiophile cables are luxury goods. The manufacturers and suppliers of luxury goods invest a lot of time and effort building positive associations that their customers pick up along with the product. nuhi;336109 Wrote: > Also it is annoying when a believer tells me like I am missing on > something or I am deaf. If a 5 year old child said the same thing would you be annoyed? So why don't you enjoy being smarter than an audiophile believer? nuhi;336109 Wrote: > Been a believer myself, now I feel robbed. Don't you feel you have grown wiser from the experience? Isn't that worth some mild embarrassment and a bit of money? nuhi;336109 Wrote: > But I presume same can be said for Homeopathy and all kinds of placebo > scams, just had to say something out of frustration. Very much so although scam is perhaps a bit too strong. It is an exploding phenomenon in our society and the more it is picked up on the quicker will come the swing back in the other direction. Stephen Colbert had some fun with the word truthiness a few years ago which I expected to stick a lot more than it did. nuhi;336109 Wrote: > Lets not debate it, it is an old story, faith prevails reason with > majority of people. Why post if you do not want to discuss it? People are people. The trend away from reason towards faith is a fairly recent phenomenon after hundreds of years of moving in the other direction. The forces behind it are well illustrated by your audiophile cables. 30 years ago essentially nobody believed in magic audio cables but look at the situation today. Interesting no? -- honestguv honestguv's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=13734 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=45323 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Virtual Dynamics Power 3 2000% Profit Margin
If someone thinks something is worth so much then (to him or her) it is. This is self-evident and is SO NOT the point. :) The real debate is about whether the product has been presented fairly which can be a grey area. In other words where does "fair" marketing spin cross over into misinformation. Darren -- darrenyeats SB3 / Inguz -> Krell KAV-300i (pre bypass) -> PMC AB-1 Dell laptop -> JVC UX-C30 mini system darrenyeats's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=10799 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=45323 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Virtual Dynamics Power 3 2000% Profit Margin
Themis;335881 Wrote: > ... what's the point in spending all this energy at "ridiculizing" these > poor cables ? I wonder. Because it is immoral to sell cables for these prices knowing that all the sonic difference is based on a placebo effect. Best part is when they (some cable manufacturer) say "we used blind testing to select the best insulation". Also it is annoying when a believer tells me like I am missing on something or I am deaf. Been a believer myself, now I feel robbed. They made me spend a lot of time, energy and money because of you being "who cares, let them be". But I presume same can be said for Homeopathy and all kinds of placebo scams, just had to say something out of frustration. Lets not debate it, it is an old story, faith prevails reason with majority of people. -- nuhi nuhi's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=10571 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=45323 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Virtual Dynamics Power 3 2000% Profit Margin
Nonreality;335587 Wrote: > Yes but it's more towards the 20 than the 10 cents in this case. But I > know what you mean. I feel with an album that I like somewhat that I > get at least 7-10 US dollars worth. With an incredible ablum maybe 20 > is fine, maybe more. It's a hard one to put a value on but I have to > say that it's better than this cable instance. I'm sure you would too.I > agree with you on this point, it's the same to me. But, I suppose that some people feel a $500 cable is an equally relevant value for them, and it's hard (for me) to laugh at them simply because I use a different value-measuring method. Objectively, even the author is probably as ridiculous regarding his own choices for other things, so... what's the point in spending all this energy at "ridiculizing" these poor cables ? I wonder. -- Themis SB3 - Denon 3808 - Sonus Faber Grand Piano Domus Themis's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=14700 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=45323 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Virtual Dynamics Power 3 2000% Profit Margin
Themis;335414 Wrote: > I suspect the "something" on them is simply what we call profit... :) > Just like for cables. Yes but it's more towards the 20 than the 10 cents in this case. But I know what you mean. I feel with an album that I like somewhat that I get at least 7-10 US dollars worth. With an incredible ablum maybe 20 is fine, maybe more. It's a hard one to put a value on but I have to say that it's better than this cable instance. I'm sure you would too. -- Nonreality -IF THE RULE YOU FOLLOWED BROUGHT YOU TO THIS, OF WHAT USE IS THE RULE.- HTTP://www.last.fm/user/nonreality Nonreality's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=15723 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=45323 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Virtual Dynamics Power 3 2000% Profit Margin
Nonreality;335358 Wrote: > The cd's don't cost you much more than 10 cents, now if something is on > them the might cost $20.I suspect the "something" on them is simply what we > call profit... :) Just like for cables. -- Themis SB3 - Denon 3808 - Sonus Faber Grand Piano Domus Themis's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=14700 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=45323 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Virtual Dynamics Power 3 2000% Profit Margin
Themis;335336 Wrote: > I must agree with the last two sentences of the author : > > "Any cable is really only "worth" the improvement it makes in your > system. If you don't feel a cable or power cord sounds as good as its > price tag suggests should, send it back." > > As for the rest, oh well : A CD costs 10cents anyway, and companies > sell them for 20$. There's only one economic theory that explains value > of goods as being proportional to the amount of labor (plus raw > materials and machinery) needed to produce these goods... Guess which > one ? :)The cd's don't cost you much more than 10 cents, now if something is > on them the might cost $20. -- Nonreality -IF THE RULE YOU FOLLOWED BROUGHT YOU TO THIS, OF WHAT USE IS THE RULE.- HTTP://www.last.fm/user/nonreality Nonreality's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=15723 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=45323 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Virtual Dynamics Power 3 2000% Profit Margin
I must agree with the last two sentences of the author : "Any cable is really only "worth" the improvement it makes in your system. If you don't feel a cable or power cord sounds as good as its price tag suggests should, send it back." As for the rest, oh well : A CD costs 10cents anyway, and companies sell them for 20$. There's only one economic theory that explains value of goods as being proportional to the amount of labor (plus raw materials and machinery) needed to produce these goods... Guess which one ? :) -- Themis SB3 - Denon 3808 - Sonus Faber Grand Piano Domus Themis's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=14700 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=45323 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Virtual Dynamics Power 3 2000% Profit Margin
JimC;284588 Wrote: > The rule of thumb often used by most analysts is that for the average > high-tech company MSRP is generally 3X product cost. (My wife used to > work in Investor Relations, so I cribbed this from her). > > This means a $99.99 product from a high-tech company is assumed to cost > about $33 to build. By this rule, a cable with $15 product cost should > retail for something closer to $45. > > Since I work for a publicly traded company in the high-tech sector, I > can't comment on the validity of the 3x number. She was pretty adamant > that the analysts used it across the board in estimating product costs > and that they felt it was pretty accurate, at least for typical > high-tech companies. > > FYI, in the world of products, gross margin % is calculated as: > > Gross_Margin$ / Total_Sales > > So for $15 cost and $300 sell price, the gm% is (300-15) / 300 or 95% > gross margin. > > > -=> Jim Umm no that is not right. Gross margin is the percentage of what you make of the selling price. -- Nonreality -IF THE RULE YOU FOLLOWED BROUGHT YOU TO THIS, OF WHAT USE IS THE RULE.- HTTP://www.last.fm/user/nonreality Nonreality's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=15723 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=45323 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Virtual Dynamics Power 3 2000% Profit Margin
zanash;284194 Wrote: > sorry for the long quote .. > > I'm inclined to agree with most of this but not all ...its the best > explaination that tallies with my experience ...and writen better than > I could !Is this an ad or spam? Trying to figure it out. Not your part but > your quote. -- Nonreality -IF THE RULE YOU FOLLOWED BROUGHT YOU TO THIS, OF WHAT USE IS THE RULE.- HTTP://www.last.fm/user/nonreality Nonreality's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=15723 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=45323 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Virtual Dynamics Power 3 2000% Profit Margin
seanadams;284320 Wrote: > WHO CARES what the part cost or the markup is? Then dang thing is so > poorly made that at best it'll barely work, and it worst it'll burn > your house down. Conductors pinched in the connector housing - come > on! > > This product is absolutely worthless, is illegal to sell without UL > approval (which it could NEVER get), and frankly a danger to own. He > could have put all the labor, love and care, and garden hose in the > world into it, but the end result is garbage. > > But don't ask how I really feel about it. :)One of the sensible posts. So a > 4ft (maybe I should read the article but with power cables why?)power cable will fix any problems in the rest of the house and the lines getting it there. Actually it's kinda cheap for this kind of scam. I do hear that your toaster and microwave will run better after installing this on your amp. Has anyone ever took apart a 1000 dollar one and felt good about it. -- Nonreality -IF THE RULE YOU FOLLOWED BROUGHT YOU TO THIS, OF WHAT USE IS THE RULE.- HTTP://www.last.fm/user/nonreality Nonreality's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=15723 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=45323 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Virtual Dynamics Power 3 2000% Profit Margin
bigfool1956;283885 Wrote: > Pity about the newspaper style percentage. If something costs you $15, > and you direct retail it for $300, that's 95% profit, not 2,000%. > > If you think different, then you are the corporate tax man's friend, > and I'm not employing you to do my company's accounts :))) By who's accounting? Doubling your money is a 50% markup. Your profit margin is 50% of the selling price. The reality is I wouldn't want to be your customer as I'm sure you would say there is no profit to the tax man anyway as you marked it up to 300. In your example that would be a 500% profit margin. -- Nonreality -IF THE RULE YOU FOLLOWED BROUGHT YOU TO THIS, OF WHAT USE IS THE RULE.- HTTP://www.last.fm/user/nonreality Nonreality's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=15723 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=45323 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Virtual Dynamics Power 3 2000% Profit Margin
DeafCat, If you didn't do a blind comparison you can't rule out expectation bias. -- tomjtx tomjtx's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=7449 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=45323 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Virtual Dynamics Power 3 2000% Profit Margin
Story so far: I have a linear psu feeding a SB via coax to an AVR200 that I use as a dac and pre, feeding a Maia, into a couple of Ditton floor standers. Quite a basic system to some Ive heard but I actually prefer it to some far more expensive kit Ive heard, eg a Naim set up was wonderfully open but far too top endy for me, an FMJ Arcam system gave a wonderful sound stage but far too smooth and soft for me, hence the playing with tweeks to see if my system can be opened up and soundstage improved, and to my pleasure it is working I have no iec socket on the SB psu as I hard wired the cable straight in, so cant try the VDP3 on that, as of yet anyway. A while back tried a solid silver mains cable that came highly recommended, from its supplier, and to my ears it did fab things, opened things right up and things sounded much better, I had no idea a mains cable could have such an effect, no need to look further I thought. (I found it to have far more effect plugged into the AVR than the Maia, so that is where it stays). Then came along and offer to try a solid core copper cable with some sort of vibration control, via a friends friends colleague, so history is a bit of an unknown, it looks new to my amazement the vocals were so much clearer, the silver cable made things smooth, the copper seemed to give a bit more bite and clarity improved. With some tracks using the Cu cable on the AVR, you could quite easily picture the singers lips with the sound coming directly from the singers mouth just a few feet in front of me Cool Stuff! The silver one went to live in the cupboard after two days, and I bought the Cu one. Four weeks later my VDP3 turned up, thinking a cable ½ the price of the silver one aint going to sound so good. I plugged it in the AVR which is the position in which a power cable seems to have most effect in my system. The sound changed totally, the bite had gone and the sound was small and recessed, not at all in the room, the only plus was that there was more detail. Clearly, I preferred my Cu power cable, with bite and clarity and the in the room feel, however, I was missing the detail I had heard in the VDP3, put it back for its burn in period which aint short. It worked out quite well, for about a month only the tv was watched, so it burnt in without me having to listen to the, not so good, music presentation. I then had two days working at home so had music playing all day reasonably loud and I was quite surprised I was comfortable listening, hmmm. A couple of weeks on: Okay, Im listening to the VDP3 at the moment, it should have had plenty of time to burn in by now, soundstage is nice, instruments seem to have their own locations in 3D space, bass controlled and deep, vocals forward and center, PRaT are rather agreeable. Very pleasant, only thing, I like the, forward in the room sound, and the sound stage could be set slightly more forward towards me to get the total surrounded immersion in music I like, and have not achieved with my set up as of yet ... but one is getting closer Switch back to the old solid core Cu cable: Ah, noticeable loss in clarity and detail Sound stage shrunk Pace so so much better Bass actually deeper but not so controlled Vocals so much more in the room feel Lack of detail is starting to grate Back to the VDP3 Much smoother on the ears. Old solid core to the cupboard. To think I was really impressed with the initial solid silver one and then impressed more with the solid Cu core one and now even more with the VDP3. Just shows me Im at the beginning of what could be a long long investigation and listening adventure, and that things you dont think will affect the music, can, in varying ways. Cool stuff! Any one know if the other VD power cables bring the soundstage more towards ones listing position? Cheers One happy Bunny (I have not pulled it apart though ;) ) -- Deaf Cat Deaf Cat's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=515 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=45323 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
