Re: [Aus-soaring] Trackers - was Re: more on ADSB

[Erich Wittstock]

Problem with spot is that you don't get feedback if your message was
successfully received.
I am not sure if this is the case with InReach.

Here is an interesting tracker project:

http://wiki.glidernet.org/

http://wiki.glidernet.org/list-of-receivers#toc2

http://wiki.glidernet.org/ogn-tracker#toc6

I've been following this for a while now. The low cost, low current draw
tracker is neat.

However: I want to be seen on other aircraft's tcas and I would like to be
able to see other aircraft (other than gliders) that already use "tracking"
via ADSB.

A multi-frequency solution seems like a good idea. 1090, 9xx, 2.4Gh, 3G, 4G
etc.
Erich


On Fri, May 29, 2015 at 9:57 AM, Matt Gage 
wrote:

> As long as you think about what you need and check ability against need
> you many options could work well.
>
> In practice, I’ve seen SPOT fail to deliver a help message, and worse, the
> pilot had no idea this had happened. Without SPOT and no phone reception,
> first option is glider chat frequencies, then area frequency, then 121.5,
> and at least you know that you got through.
>
> I’ve also seen 3G/4G routinely provide tracking down to below 500’ AGL in
> the full comp task area from Narromine. If they don’t re-appear within 30
> minutes, either the phone went flat, or they landed, and using google maps
> (which is how the trackers usually display this anyway), you can probably
> pick the paddock they landed in
>
> InReach sounds like a good improvement all round though.
>
>
>
> On 29 May 2015, at 8:01 , Michael Zupanc  wrote:
>
>  Watch the coverage
> There are quite a number of different personal locator devices on the
> market and they use different satellite phone systems, with different
> coverage areas.
>
> In terms of satellite communication systems, Thuraya and Inmarsat use
> Geostationary satelites, while Iridium uses Polar Low Earth Orbiting
> satellite constellations.
>
> Spot trackers seem to be very popular, but probably just because they are
> one of the older brands, but Spot does not have global coverage. Anyone
> wishing to use such a device should do some homework and determine exactly
> what coverage they require as the Systems which use geostationary
> satellites are typically cheaper. But a cheap phone is rather useless if it
> doesn't work where you are :-)...
>
>
>
> On 28/05/2015 7:29 PM, Matthew Scutter wrote:
>
> Since we're going down this tangent, there's a new kid on the sat tracking
> block - Delorme's InReach.
> Offers higher update frequencies than SPOT's, *two* way messaging (this is
> the killer feature), and I believe they also send altitude information,
> unlike the SPOT's.
> Roughly twice the cost though.
>
>  I think this one is especially cool, includes a solar panel -
> http://www.inreachdelorme.com/product-info/inreachse_extreme_bundle.php
>
>  I haven't used one myself but I have heard very good things from pilots
> overseas.
> Do check of the coverage maps for both SPOT and InReach, they're not
> actually global (ask the pilots in Namibia...)
>
> On Thu, May 28, 2015 at 7:07 PM, Mark Newton 
> wrote:
>
>> On 28 May 2015, at 4:25 pm, Mike Borgelt 
>> wrote:
>> >
>> > It has been pointed out to me that all we really need is the cellphone
>> network.
>> > Implement flight tracking for everyone using the web via the cellphone
>> 3 or 4G and receive the information on tracked aircraft via the same
>> method. Essentially unlimited range and 15 second updates are plenty at
>> longer ranges.
>> > AMSA are about to implement the tracking via AvPlan  so you can let
>> them know you'll be doing this. If you don't show up it will help the
>> search.
>>
>> That’s essentially what Spot Trackers are: Hockey-pucks that know how to
>> send Iridium satphone SMSs, so they can work anywhere, including where
>> terrestrial cellphones aren’t.
>>
>>   - mark
>>
>>
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[Aus-soaring] Trackers - was Re: more on ADSB

[Matt Gage]

As long as you think about what you need and check ability against need you 
many options could work well.

In practice, I’ve seen SPOT fail to deliver a help message, and worse, the 
pilot had no idea this had happened. Without SPOT and no phone reception, first 
option is glider chat frequencies, then area frequency, then 121.5, and at 
least you know that you got through.

I’ve also seen 3G/4G routinely provide tracking down to below 500’ AGL in the 
full comp task area from Narromine. If they don’t re-appear within 30 minutes, 
either the phone went flat, or they landed, and using google maps (which is how 
the trackers usually display this anyway), you can probably pick the paddock 
they landed in

InReach sounds like a good improvement all round though.



> On 29 May 2015, at 8:01 , Michael Zupanc  wrote:
> 
> Watch the coverage
> There are quite a number of different personal locator devices on the market 
> and they use different satellite phone systems, with different coverage areas.
> 
> In terms of satellite communication systems, Thuraya and Inmarsat use 
> Geostationary satelites, while Iridium uses Polar Low Earth Orbiting 
> satellite constellations.
> 
> Spot trackers seem to be very popular, but probably just because they are one 
> of the older brands, but Spot does not have global coverage. Anyone wishing 
> to use such a device should do some homework and determine exactly what 
> coverage they require as the Systems which use geostationary satellites are 
> typically cheaper. But a cheap phone is rather useless if it doesn't work 
> where you are :-)...
> 
> 
> 
> On 28/05/2015 7:29 PM, Matthew Scutter wrote:
>> Since we're going down this tangent, there's a new kid on the sat tracking 
>> block - Delorme's InReach.
>> Offers higher update frequencies than SPOT's, *two* way messaging (this is 
>> the killer feature), and I believe they also send altitude information, 
>> unlike the SPOT's.
>> Roughly twice the cost though.
>> 
>> I think this one is especially cool, includes a solar panel - 
>> http://www.inreachdelorme.com/product-info/inreachse_extreme_bundle.php 
>> 
>> 
>> I haven't used one myself but I have heard very good things from pilots 
>> overseas.
>> Do check of the coverage maps for both SPOT and InReach, they're not 
>> actually global (ask the pilots in Namibia...)
>> 
>> On Thu, May 28, 2015 at 7:07 PM, Mark Newton > > wrote:
>> On 28 May 2015, at 4:25 pm, Mike Borgelt > > wrote:
>> >
>> > It has been pointed out to me that all we really need is the cellphone 
>> > network.
>> > Implement flight tracking for everyone using the web via the cellphone 3 
>> > or 4G and receive the information on tracked aircraft via the same method. 
>> > Essentially unlimited range and 15 second updates are plenty at longer 
>> > ranges.
>> > AMSA are about to implement the tracking via AvPlan  so you can let them 
>> > know you'll be doing this. If you don't show up it will help the search.
>> 
>> That’s essentially what Spot Trackers are: Hockey-pucks that know how to 
>> send Iridium satphone SMSs, so they can work anywhere, including where 
>> terrestrial cellphones aren’t.
>> 
>>   - mark
>> 
>> 
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>> 
>> 
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Re: [Aus-soaring] more on ADSB

[Peter F Bradshaw]

Hi;

This is what XCSoar does.

https://skylines.aero/tracking/

On Thu, 2015-05-28 at 16:25 +1000, Mike Borgelt wrote:
> It has been pointed out to me that all we really need is the cellphone
> network.
> 
> Implement flight tracking for everyone using the web via the cellphone
> 3 or 4G and receive the information on tracked aircraft via the same
> method. Essentially unlimited range and 15 second updates are plenty
> at longer ranges.
> 
> AMSA are about to implement the tracking via AvPlan  so you can let
> them know you'll be doing this. If you don't show up it will help the
> search.
> 
> Mike
> 
> 
> 
> At 02:54 PM 28/05/2015, you wrote:
> > anti collision / situational awareness for all
> > http://www.sagetechcorp.com/unmanned-solutions/unmanned-manned.cfm#.VWadsc-qpBd
> >  
> > 
> > 
> > Will have a raspberry to play with this arvo.. Economical way for a
> > proof of concept..
> > Erich
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> > http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring
> 
> Borgelt Instruments- design & manufacture of quality soaring
> instrumentation since 1978
> www.borgeltinstruments.com
> tel:   07 4635 5784 overseas: int+61-7-4635 5784
> mob: 042835 5784:  int+61-42835 5784
> P O Box 4607, Toowoomba East, QLD 4350, Australia 
> 
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Cheers

-- 
Peter F Bradshaw, http://www.exadios.com
Public key at www.exadios.com/pfb.pgp.key and
www.exadios.com/pfb.gpg.key
Personal site: http://personal.exadios.com
"I love truth, and the way the government still uses it occasionally to
 keep us guessing." - Sam Kekovich.


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Re: [Aus-soaring] more on ADSB

[Mark Newton]

On May 29, 2015, at 8:01 AM, Michael Zupanc  wrote:
> Spot trackers seem to be very popular, but probably just because they are one 
> of the older brands, but Spot does not have global coverage. Anyone wishing 
> to use such a device should do some homework and determine exactly what 
> coverage they require as the Systems which use geostationary satellites are 
> typically cheaper. But a cheap phone is rather useless if it doesn't work 
> where you are :-)…

We’re not exactly flying in Antarctica. 

http://www.findmespot.com/en/index.php?cid=108 


  - mark



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Re: [Aus-soaring] more on ADSB

[Michael Zupanc]

Watch the coverage
There are quite a number of different personal locator devices on the 
market and they use different satellite phone systems, with different 
coverage areas.


In terms of satellite communication systems, Thuraya and Inmarsat use 
Geostationary satelites, while Iridium uses Polar Low Earth Orbiting 
satellite constellations.


Spot trackers seem to be very popular, but probably just because they 
are one of the older brands, but Spot does not have global coverage. 
Anyone wishing to use such a device should do some homework and 
determine exactly what coverage they require as the Systems which use 
geostationary satellites are typically cheaper. But a cheap phone is 
rather useless if it doesn't work where you are :-)...




On 28/05/2015 7:29 PM, Matthew Scutter wrote:
Since we're going down this tangent, there's a new kid on the sat 
tracking block - Delorme's InReach.
Offers higher update frequencies than SPOT's, *two* way messaging 
(this is the killer feature), and I believe they also send altitude 
information, unlike the SPOT's.

Roughly twice the cost though.

I think this one is especially cool, includes a solar panel - 
http://www.inreachdelorme.com/product-info/inreachse_extreme_bundle.php


I haven't used one myself but I have heard very good things from 
pilots overseas.
Do check of the coverage maps for both SPOT and InReach, they're not 
actually global (ask the pilots in Namibia...)


On Thu, May 28, 2015 at 7:07 PM, Mark Newton > wrote:


On 28 May 2015, at 4:25 pm, Mike Borgelt
mailto:mborg...@borgeltinstruments.com>> wrote:
>
> It has been pointed out to me that all we really need is the
cellphone network.
> Implement flight tracking for everyone using the web via the
cellphone 3 or 4G and receive the information on tracked aircraft
via the same method. Essentially unlimited range and 15 second
updates are plenty at longer ranges.
> AMSA are about to implement the tracking via AvPlan so you can
let them know you'll be doing this. If you don't show up it will
help the search.

That's essentially what Spot Trackers are: Hockey-pucks that know
how to send Iridium satphone SMSs, so they can work anywhere,
including where terrestrial cellphones aren't.

  - mark


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--
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0408662328
zupy.net

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Re: [Aus-soaring] more on ADSB

[Jim Staniforth]

Matthew et al: InReach is a good device.
  I owned the original SPOT from prior to their creation of the "shared 
page" and then had a SPOT2.
Delorme introduced InReach a couple of years ago. A friend still uses 
the original (cube-shaped) one. I switched to InReach when my SPOT 
contract ended at New Year's, started flying with it at Keepit in February.
  The InReach SE works very well, tracks more often and more reliably 
than SPOT. Like APRS, it tracks 
Latitude/Longitude/Elevation/Speed/Direction. Have only tested the 
duplex messaging. You can = connect a cell phone by bluetooth and 
dictate messages to send by satellite. InReach uses a better satellite 
network than SPOT. The batteries last for several days of flying and are 
recharged by USB.
  It is slightly more expensive to subscribe than SPOT, but for those 
who only want to use it a few months a year they offer a subscription 
for that. There's a newer device than SE if you'd like "navigate to" 
function.
  Don't remember the deal I received from DeLorme, but there was a $50 
rebate check and some sort of discount on tracking for a period. 
Currently billing me $1 a month which raises a red flag at the credit 
card company.
  My parachute rigger made a hard point for the SPOT on the left 
shoulder of the Mini-Softie harness that puts the tracker in a good 
position and will not interfere with parachute deployment. He recently 
built an airworthy pouch for the DeLorme SE. The original SPOT fit in a 
modified ELT pouch, SPOT2 came with a decent pouch.
  In Australia the cell phone network might be a viable alternative, 
but in southwestern US you're booted off the network at altitude, then 
the phone goes into search mode and runs the battery down. Seems as more 
people find uses for it, the mobile data network is getting saturated.

Jim



On 5/28/2015 2:29 AM, Matthew Scutter wrote:
Since we're going down this tangent, there's a new kid on the sat 
tracking block - Delorme's InReach.
Offers higher update frequencies than SPOT's, *two* way messaging 
(this is the killer feature), and I believe they also send altitude 
information, unlike the SPOT's.

Roughly twice the cost though.

I think this one is especially cool, includes a solar panel - 
http://www.inreachdelorme.com/product-info/inreachse_extreme_bundle.php


I haven't used one myself but I have heard very good things from 
pilots overseas.
Do check of the coverage maps for both SPOT and InReach, they're not 
actually global (ask the pilots in Namibia...)


On Thu, May 28, 2015 at 7:07 PM, Mark Newton > wrote:


On 28 May 2015, at 4:25 pm, Mike Borgelt
mailto:mborg...@borgeltinstruments.com>> wrote:
>
> It has been pointed out to me that all we really need is the
cellphone network.
> Implement flight tracking for everyone using the web via the
cellphone 3 or 4G and receive the information on tracked aircraft
via the same method. Essentially unlimited range and 15 second
updates are plenty at longer ranges.
> AMSA are about to implement the tracking via AvPlan so you can
let them know you'll be doing this. If you don't show up it will
help the search.

That’s essentially what Spot Trackers are: Hockey-pucks that know
how to send Iridium satphone SMSs, so they can work anywhere,
including where terrestrial cellphones aren’t.

  - mark


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Re: [Aus-soaring] more on ADSB

[DMcD]

>>Hockey-pucks that know how to send Iridium sat phone SMSs

Not Iridium last time I looked. In fact, I think that Spot uses
something like Globalstar sats which were failing all over the place
some years ago. They released Spot which has nowhere near the
requirements of a sat phone in terms of reliability and this restarted
the company… to the extent that they rebranded as Spot and forgot the
ordure behind them. Or that was what I read last year.

Spot is fairly OK if you don't need a reliable tracker. It's OK if all
you want to do is send a help message from time to time and don't
really mind if it gets through. It probably will and the device will
let you know if it fails. However there are more than a few holes in
the global coverage for Spot and my experience in the outback was not
great. Their website was not too hot either.

InReach is something else again. I got mine because I was going
somewhere which was hundreds of km from the nearest phone network and
way out of range of VHF etc. It was the only reliable solution because
Spot did not work because of their coverage holes.

The main advantage is the ability to send SMS messages of any type. In
fact, overseas, an InReach SMS is cheaper than Telstra thought that's
not a surprise. InReach does use Iridium which is claimed to be the
only one with proper Global coverage. The InReach website is excellent
and stores tracks for ages, unlike Spot where they disappear over a
week.

The InReach is powered by a rechargeable battery with 100 hours
duration. Because of the proper screen, you can see battery charge
level, tracking, messages etc. Unlike Spot where it just goes flat on
you.

In fact, you don't really do much with the InReach because it can be
linked with a phone or iPad and controlled entirely through that. So
all you do is turn it on, check and then fly.

The only real drawback in remote area flying with a ground crew is
that in most cases, people on the ground will have worse phone
reception than you in the air so you can send a sat SMS with the
InReach but the people on the ground may not get it until they're in a
town. So you either need two or the person in the car gets it.

For a lot of remote area flying, I think that the InReach is the most
likely tracker and I would rely on it a lot more than a mobile phone.
Sure, for local area flying, phones are OK.

Otherwise a brilliant tool. If you get it registered in the USA, the
prices are very reasonable, and not much more than Spot.

D

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Re: [Aus-soaring] more on ADSB

[Matthew Scutter]

Since we're going down this tangent, there's a new kid on the sat tracking
block - Delorme's InReach.
Offers higher update frequencies than SPOT's, *two* way messaging (this is
the killer feature), and I believe they also send altitude information,
unlike the SPOT's.
Roughly twice the cost though.

I think this one is especially cool, includes a solar panel -
http://www.inreachdelorme.com/product-info/inreachse_extreme_bundle.php

I haven't used one myself but I have heard very good things from pilots
overseas.
Do check of the coverage maps for both SPOT and InReach, they're not
actually global (ask the pilots in Namibia...)

On Thu, May 28, 2015 at 7:07 PM, Mark Newton  wrote:

> On 28 May 2015, at 4:25 pm, Mike Borgelt 
> wrote:
> >
> > It has been pointed out to me that all we really need is the cellphone
> network.
> > Implement flight tracking for everyone using the web via the cellphone 3
> or 4G and receive the information on tracked aircraft via the same method.
> Essentially unlimited range and 15 second updates are plenty at longer
> ranges.
> > AMSA are about to implement the tracking via AvPlan  so you can let them
> know you'll be doing this. If you don't show up it will help the search.
>
> That’s essentially what Spot Trackers are: Hockey-pucks that know how to
> send Iridium satphone SMSs, so they can work anywhere, including where
> terrestrial cellphones aren’t.
>
>   - mark
>
>
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Re: [Aus-soaring] more on ADSB

[Mark Newton]

On 28 May 2015, at 4:25 pm, Mike Borgelt  
wrote:
> 
> It has been pointed out to me that all we really need is the cellphone 
> network.
> Implement flight tracking for everyone using the web via the cellphone 3 or 
> 4G and receive the information on tracked aircraft via the same method. 
> Essentially unlimited range and 15 second updates are plenty at longer ranges.
> AMSA are about to implement the tracking via AvPlan  so you can let them know 
> you'll be doing this. If you don't show up it will help the search.

That’s essentially what Spot Trackers are: Hockey-pucks that know how to send 
Iridium satphone SMSs, so they can work anywhere, including where terrestrial 
cellphones aren’t.

  - mark



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