Re: ANN Titanium, a Clojure library on top of Titan

2013-02-13 Thread Jeroen van Dijk 
>
> If you like Hermes and see it as a much more complete library, please use
> it.
>

Thanks a lot for the explanation and the work on Titanium. I'm new to Titan
and I've played a bit with Hermes earlier. I do not favor one above the
other (yet), I was just wondering if you were aware of the related work and
any fundamental differences. You have explained this clearly. I'll give
Titanium a try as well.

Thanks again,
Jeroen





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Re: ANN Titanium, a Clojure library on top of Titan

2013-02-12 Thread Michael Klishin 
2013/2/13 Zack Maril 

> From a philosophical standpoint, I'm not comfortable with the idea that an
> API written to wrap a REST endpoint should serve as inspiration for the API
> to wrap the in process interactions with the database


I'd like to point out that we won't try to make Titanium "a Neocons version
on top of Titan". That's not
technically possible and doesn't sound like a good idea to us. What we want
at first is to reach
reasonable feature parity with Neocons.

Neocons is also not going away, in some environments (e.g. Heroku) Titan is
currently not
very useful but Neo4J Server is.
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Re: ANN Titanium, a Clojure library on top of Titan

2013-02-12 Thread Michael Klishin 
2013/2/12 Jeroen van Dijk 

> Looks interesting. I'm just wondering if you had a look at hermes [1], and
> if so, how is it different?


We started thinking about developing Titanium and what it may look like
before Hermes was released (or before I heard about it).
I did not look at the Hermes code closely, I am sure there is a lot we can
learn from it.
Developing Titanium helps us understand Titan in much more depth, and we
always try to understand technologies
we use the best we can.

In Titanium, you will see all the things you've come to expect from
ClojureWerkz.

Just like with Langohr, Monger, Elastisch and Welle, I believe the
community will benefit from a new project,
even though there technically is a library that covers the same ground.
Indeed this time
it is a tough competitor to beat!

If you like Hermes and see it as a much more complete library, please use
it.
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Re: ANN Titanium, a Clojure library on top of Titan

2013-02-12 Thread Michael Klishin 
2013/2/12 AtKaaZ 

> is there a way to use nested transactions, yet?
> I am looking at [1] and [2]


Some initial tx support is in master, more coming soon.
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Re: ANN Titanium, a Clojure library on top of Titan

2013-02-12 Thread AtKaaZ 
Thanks Zack.
I wouldn't have looked at hermes if ccw would actually not show-stop my
attempts to load titanium into eclipse, so I've filed some ccw issue here:
https://code.google.com/p/counterclockwise/issues/detail?id=531&sort=-id
Even so, as far as I could tell, they didn't (yet!) implement transactions.
So I am happy to spend some time looking at hermes ...

If someone has any suggestions about graph visualizations (preferably in
3D, but if 2D or swing, say also), my aim is somewhere into that area
whichever titan lib I choose to use. (if I don't get(easily) discouraged
along the way, usually due to encountering bugs everywhere :) )





On Tue, Feb 12, 2013 at 10:28 PM, Zack Maril  wrote:

> Primary author of Hermes here. We've put a fair amount of work into
> getting transactions right from the very beginning.
>
> Try reading:
> https://github.com/gameclosure/hermes/wiki/Transaction-Management
> And:
> https://github.com/gameclosure/hermes/wiki/Opening-graphs
>
> I'm working on a project now that might require adding support for
> BatchGraph to hermes (if it doesn't exist already with
> hermes.core/with-graph). If you have any questions or comments,
> don't hesitate to reach out.
>
> As far as compare and contrast goes, philosophically, it seems that both
> libraries started from two very different places. Titanium was written
> after the authors had already written neocons, a great wrapper around the
> rest endpoint of neo4j. They say that they would like to roughly match the
> functionality of titanium with neocons. In the documentation for titanium,
> they suggest that right now, for production graphs, you should go use
> neocons/neo4j instead. I can't speak much more to the development of the
> library because I didn't develop it and didn't know it existed until
> yesterday.
>
> Hermes was written relatively from scratch. There were some other
> libraries floating around that sort of paired Clojure with Titan, but none
> of them were much more than somebody's monthlong fascination with a new
> open source project. So, I was learning the in's and out's of Titan,
> writing a library, and trying to get it into production as fast as possible
> all at once. We put (probably too much) thought into managing transactions.
> This let us build hermes.core/transact! and hermes.core/retry-transact!
> easily, both of which greatly simplify working with transactions. We added
> in methods for making updating the database as easy as possible,
> hermes.vertex/upsert! and hermes.edge/upconnect!. We have a pretty solid
> test suite at this point. I'd feel comfortable telling somebody to put it
> into production, with the normal caveat that goes with any software that
> hasn't hit a stable 1.0.0, things will break and only a few people in the
> world will know why.
>
> From a philosophical standpoint, I'm not comfortable with the idea that an
> API written to wrap a REST endpoint should serve as inspiration for the API
> to wrap the in process interactions with the database. Before writing
> hermes, I used neocons for a month or so and making titanium gracefully
> match seems like a tough feat to pull off. But if anybody can do it, I'm
> sure the ClojureWerkz team can. I've tried to resist talking about hermes
> too much when titanium has come up, mostly to let them have some breathing
> room and because I've been quite busy with my own Titan project as of
> late[0]. I recommend you try out both libraries and see which one best fits
> what you want to build.
>
> So, in summary, quid pro quo, two libraries enter, one library leaves,
> postgres probably already does what you want.
> -Zack
>
> [0] The project loads git repo's into Titan for analysis via Faunus. I've
> got it loading up the linux kernel on an ec2 instance right now. I'm able
> to ask a variety of questions via Faunus. Still reworking it to load repo's
> quickly and use Titan the right way for the size of the graphs likely to be
> encountered. I expect it will be formally announced once I figure out some
> neat things about the linux kernel.
>
> On Wednesday, February 13, 2013 12:16:15 AM UTC+4, AtKaaZ wrote:
>
>> I did not look at hermes, wasn't aware of it, but I'll look, thanks.
>>
>>
>> On Tue, Feb 12, 2013 at 8:56 PM, Jeroen van Dijk 
>> wrote:
>>
>>> Looks interesting. I'm just wondering if you had a look at hermes [1],
>>> and if so, how is it different?
>>>
>>> [1] 
>>> https://github.com/**gameclosure/hermes
>>>
>>>
>>> On Tue, Feb 12, 2013 at 6:39 PM, AtKaaZ  wrote:
>>>
 is there a way to use nested transactions, yet?
 I am looking at [1] and [2]

 [1] https://github.com/**thinkaurelius/titan/wiki/**
 Multi-Threaded-Transactions
 [2] 
 https://github.com/tinkerpop/**blueprints/wiki/Graph-**Transactions



 On Mon, Feb 11, 2013

Re: ANN Titanium, a Clojure library on top of Titan

2013-02-12 Thread Zack Maril 
Primary author of Hermes here. We've put a fair amount of work into getting 
transactions right from the very beginning. 

Try reading: 
https://github.com/gameclosure/hermes/wiki/Transaction-Management
And:
https://github.com/gameclosure/hermes/wiki/Opening-graphs

I'm working on a project now that might require adding support for 
BatchGraph to hermes (if it doesn't exist already with 
hermes.core/with-graph). If you have any questions or comments, 
don't hesitate to reach out. 

As far as compare and contrast goes, philosophically, it seems that both 
libraries started from two very different places. Titanium was written 
after the authors had already written neocons, a great wrapper around the 
rest endpoint of neo4j. They say that they would like to roughly match the 
functionality of titanium with neocons. In the documentation for titanium, 
they suggest that right now, for production graphs, you should go use 
neocons/neo4j instead. I can't speak much more to the development of the 
library because I didn't develop it and didn't know it existed until 
yesterday.

Hermes was written relatively from scratch. There were some other libraries 
floating around that sort of paired Clojure with Titan, but none of them 
were much more than somebody's monthlong fascination with a new open source 
project. So, I was learning the in's and out's of Titan, writing a library, 
and trying to get it into production as fast as possible all at once. We 
put (probably too much) thought into managing transactions. This let us 
build hermes.core/transact! and hermes.core/retry-transact! easily, both of 
which greatly simplify working with transactions. We added in methods for 
making updating the database as easy as possible, hermes.vertex/upsert! and 
hermes.edge/upconnect!. We have a pretty solid test suite at this point. 
I'd feel comfortable telling somebody to put it into production, with the 
normal caveat that goes with any software that hasn't hit a stable 1.0.0, 
things will break and only a few people in the world will know why. 

>From a philosophical standpoint, I'm not comfortable with the idea that an 
API written to wrap a REST endpoint should serve as inspiration for the API 
to wrap the in process interactions with the database. Before writing 
hermes, I used neocons for a month or so and making titanium gracefully 
match seems like a tough feat to pull off. But if anybody can do it, I'm 
sure the ClojureWerkz team can. I've tried to resist talking about hermes 
too much when titanium has come up, mostly to let them have some breathing 
room and because I've been quite busy with my own Titan project as of 
late[0]. I recommend you try out both libraries and see which one best fits 
what you want to build. 

So, in summary, quid pro quo, two libraries enter, one library leaves, 
postgres probably already does what you want.
-Zack 

[0] The project loads git repo's into Titan for analysis via Faunus. I've 
got it loading up the linux kernel on an ec2 instance right now. I'm able 
to ask a variety of questions via Faunus. Still reworking it to load repo's 
quickly and use Titan the right way for the size of the graphs likely to be 
encountered. I expect it will be formally announced once I figure out some 
neat things about the linux kernel. 

On Wednesday, February 13, 2013 12:16:15 AM UTC+4, AtKaaZ wrote:
>
> I did not look at hermes, wasn't aware of it, but I'll look, thanks.
>
>
> On Tue, Feb 12, 2013 at 8:56 PM, Jeroen van Dijk 
> 
> > wrote:
>
>> Looks interesting. I'm just wondering if you had a look at hermes [1], 
>> and if so, how is it different?
>>
>> [1] https://github.com/gameclosure/hermes
>>
>>
>> On Tue, Feb 12, 2013 at 6:39 PM, AtKaaZ > >wrote:
>>
>>> is there a way to use nested transactions, yet? 
>>> I am looking at [1] and [2]
>>>
>>> [1] 
>>> https://github.com/thinkaurelius/titan/wiki/Multi-Threaded-Transactions
>>> [2] https://github.com/tinkerpop/blueprints/wiki/Graph-Transactions
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On Mon, Feb 11, 2013 at 6:37 PM, Michael Klishin 
>>> 
>>> > wrote:
>>>
 Titanium [1] is a Clojure graph library that is built on top of  Titan 
 [2].
 It combines a Clojure-friendly API and graph processing DSL with the 
 power of Titan.

 Full announcement and more details:
 http://blog.clojurewerkz.org/blog/2013/02/11/introducing-titanium/

 1. http://titanium.clojurewerkz.org
 2. http://thinkaurelius.github.com/titan/
 -- 
 MK

 http://github.com/michaelklishin
 http://twitter.com/michaelklishin
  
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Re: ANN Titanium, a Clojure library on top of Titan

2013-02-12 Thread AtKaaZ 
I did not look at hermes, wasn't aware of it, but I'll look, thanks.


On Tue, Feb 12, 2013 at 8:56 PM, Jeroen van Dijk  wrote:

> Looks interesting. I'm just wondering if you had a look at hermes [1], and
> if so, how is it different?
>
> [1] https://github.com/gameclosure/hermes
>
>
> On Tue, Feb 12, 2013 at 6:39 PM, AtKaaZ  wrote:
>
>> is there a way to use nested transactions, yet?
>> I am looking at [1] and [2]
>>
>> [1]
>> https://github.com/thinkaurelius/titan/wiki/Multi-Threaded-Transactions
>> [2] https://github.com/tinkerpop/blueprints/wiki/Graph-Transactions
>>
>>
>>
>> On Mon, Feb 11, 2013 at 6:37 PM, Michael Klishin <
>> michael.s.klis...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>> Titanium [1] is a Clojure graph library that is built on top of  Titan
>>> [2].
>>> It combines a Clojure-friendly API and graph processing DSL with the
>>> power of Titan.
>>>
>>> Full announcement and more details:
>>> http://blog.clojurewerkz.org/blog/2013/02/11/introducing-titanium/
>>>
>>> 1. http://titanium.clojurewerkz.org
>>> 2. http://thinkaurelius.github.com/titan/
>>> --
>>> MK
>>>
>>> http://github.com/michaelklishin
>>> http://twitter.com/michaelklishin
>>>
>>> --
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>>
>>
>>
>> --
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Re: ANN Titanium, a Clojure library on top of Titan

2013-02-12 Thread Jeroen van Dijk 
Looks interesting. I'm just wondering if you had a look at hermes [1], and
if so, how is it different?

[1] https://github.com/gameclosure/hermes


On Tue, Feb 12, 2013 at 6:39 PM, AtKaaZ  wrote:

> is there a way to use nested transactions, yet?
> I am looking at [1] and [2]
>
> [1]
> https://github.com/thinkaurelius/titan/wiki/Multi-Threaded-Transactions
> [2] https://github.com/tinkerpop/blueprints/wiki/Graph-Transactions
>
>
>
> On Mon, Feb 11, 2013 at 6:37 PM, Michael Klishin <
> michael.s.klis...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> Titanium [1] is a Clojure graph library that is built on top of  Titan
>> [2].
>> It combines a Clojure-friendly API and graph processing DSL with the
>> power of Titan.
>>
>> Full announcement and more details:
>> http://blog.clojurewerkz.org/blog/2013/02/11/introducing-titanium/
>>
>> 1. http://titanium.clojurewerkz.org
>> 2. http://thinkaurelius.github.com/titan/
>> --
>> MK
>>
>> http://github.com/michaelklishin
>> http://twitter.com/michaelklishin
>>
>> --
>> --
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>>
>
>
>
> --
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Re: ANN Titanium, a Clojure library on top of Titan

2013-02-12 Thread AtKaaZ 
is there a way to use nested transactions, yet?
I am looking at [1] and [2]

[1] https://github.com/thinkaurelius/titan/wiki/Multi-Threaded-Transactions
[2] https://github.com/tinkerpop/blueprints/wiki/Graph-Transactions



On Mon, Feb 11, 2013 at 6:37 PM, Michael Klishin <
michael.s.klis...@gmail.com> wrote:

> Titanium [1] is a Clojure graph library that is built on top of  Titan [2].
> It combines a Clojure-friendly API and graph processing DSL with the power
> of Titan.
>
> Full announcement and more details:
> http://blog.clojurewerkz.org/blog/2013/02/11/introducing-titanium/
>
> 1. http://titanium.clojurewerkz.org
> 2. http://thinkaurelius.github.com/titan/
> --
> MK
>
> http://github.com/michaelklishin
> http://twitter.com/michaelklishin
>
> --
> --
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Re: ANN Titanium, a Clojure library on top of Titan

2013-02-11 Thread Devin Walters 
Another day, another great clojurewerkz library. Well done, gents. *golf clap*

'(Devin Walters)

On Feb 11, 2013, at 11:37 AM, Michael Klishin  
wrote:

> Titanium [1] is a Clojure graph library that is built on top of  Titan [2].
> It combines a Clojure-friendly API and graph processing DSL with the power of 
> Titan.
> 
> Full announcement and more details:
> http://blog.clojurewerkz.org/blog/2013/02/11/introducing-titanium/
> 
> 1. http://titanium.clojurewerkz.org
> 2. http://thinkaurelius.github.com/titan/
> -- 
> MK
> 
> http://github.com/michaelklishin
> http://twitter.com/michaelklishin
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Re: ANN Titanium, a Clojure library on top of Titan

2013-02-11 Thread Michael Klishin 
2013/2/11 AtKaaZ 

> should I be reporting any of these somewhere else?


Feel free to submit pull requests to
https://github.com/clojurewerkz/titanium.docs ;)


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Re: ANN Titanium, a Clojure library on top of Titan

2013-02-11 Thread James Thornton 
This looks cool Michael,  and it looks like it has made it to the front 
page of HN (http://news.ycombinator.com).

I have been working with Titan in Clojure so I'll definitely check it out.

- James

On Monday, February 11, 2013 11:37:14 AM UTC-6, Michael Klishin wrote:
>
> Titanium [1] is a Clojure graph library that is built on top of  Titan [2].
> It combines a Clojure-friendly API and graph processing DSL with the power 
> of Titan.
>
> Full announcement and more details:
> http://blog.clojurewerkz.org/blog/2013/02/11/introducing-titanium/
>
> 1. http://titanium.clojurewerkz.org
> 2. http://thinkaurelius.github.com/titan/
> -- 
> MK
>
> http://github.com/michaelklishin
> http://twitter.com/michaelklishin
>  

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Re: ANN Titanium, a Clojure library on top of Titan

2013-02-11 Thread AtKaaZ 
a small typo here:
http://titanium.clojurewerkz.org/articles/getting_started.html
at "

Removing Edges

"

 (tg/remove-edge e))

should be:
(tg/remove-edge g e))

should I be reporting any of these somewhere else?



On Mon, Feb 11, 2013 at 6:37 PM, Michael Klishin <
michael.s.klis...@gmail.com> wrote:

> Titanium [1] is a Clojure graph library that is built on top of  Titan [2].
> It combines a Clojure-friendly API and graph processing DSL with the power
> of Titan.
>
> Full announcement and more details:
> http://blog.clojurewerkz.org/blog/2013/02/11/introducing-titanium/
>
> 1. http://titanium.clojurewerkz.org
> 2. http://thinkaurelius.github.com/titan/
> --
> MK
>
> http://github.com/michaelklishin
> http://twitter.com/michaelklishin
>
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>



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even if you think I'll subconsciously hate it.

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Re: ANN Titanium, a Clojure library on top of Titan

2013-02-11 Thread AtKaaZ 
this is awesome!

there is some format issue on this page:
http://titanium.clojurewerkz.org/articles/getting_started.html
search for this twice to see both: clojurewerkz.titanium.elements/merge!


On Mon, Feb 11, 2013 at 6:37 PM, Michael Klishin <
michael.s.klis...@gmail.com> wrote:

> Titanium [1] is a Clojure graph library that is built on top of  Titan [2].
> It combines a Clojure-friendly API and graph processing DSL with the power
> of Titan.
>
> Full announcement and more details:
> http://blog.clojurewerkz.org/blog/2013/02/11/introducing-titanium/
>
> 1. http://titanium.clojurewerkz.org
> 2. http://thinkaurelius.github.com/titan/
> --
> MK
>
> http://github.com/michaelklishin
> http://twitter.com/michaelklishin
>
> --
> --
> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google
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ANN Titanium, a Clojure library on top of Titan

2013-02-11 Thread Michael Klishin 
Titanium [1] is a Clojure graph library that is built on top of  Titan [2].
It combines a Clojure-friendly API and graph processing DSL with the power
of Titan.

Full announcement and more details:
http://blog.clojurewerkz.org/blog/2013/02/11/introducing-titanium/

1. http://titanium.clojurewerkz.org
2. http://thinkaurelius.github.com/titan/
-- 
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http://github.com/michaelklishin
http://twitter.com/michaelklishin

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