Re: Newbie interface questions - multiple "modal" windows

[Uli Kusterer]

Am 17.06.2008 um 23:41 schrieb Matthew Youney:
The structure, documentation of Cocoa, as well as observation of  
this forum
has helped me to evolve (clean up) my OI technique, and hopefully  
take my

code to the next level.  Although I have always been a very "hardware
oriented" programmer, and I am enjoying this experience.  A bit of a
learning curve, but anything worth doing...



 It might help to get in touch with someone who does contract work  
and has a good sense of Mac UI and, even more important, great User  
Interaction Design skills. There are many subtle ins-and-outs to the  
Mac UI, and often several ways to achieve certain things, and having  
someone already familiar with the platform on call can help a great  
deal.


 Of course, you'd have to educate the Mac programmer about the actual  
(high-level) constraints you're facing, but it would be a great help.  
E.g. if you're doing a touchscreen UI, it may be worth investigating  
resolution independence: you can simply switch one user defaults key  
in your app to magnify all controls, which will look better than  
laying out your UI larger, because the button corners and shadows etc.  
will get scaled up, too.


 Similarly, there are various kiosk modes, ways of hiding the menu  
bar (this kinda overlaps, but obviously not quite), and other  
conventions.


Cheers,
-- Uli Kusterer
"The Witnesses of TeachText are everywhere..."
http://www.zathras.de





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Re: Newbie interface questions - multiple "modal" windows

[Uli Kusterer]

Am 17.06.2008 um 16:39 schrieb glenn andreas:
You can load views into tabs from multiple NIBs as needed - under  
10.5 using NSViewController (or some manual grunt work under 10.4).



 I have a UKNibOwner class that I use for stuff like it. See:


http://www.zathras.de/programming/cocoa/UKCrashReporter.zip/UKCrashReporter/

for the header and source file. There's a few caveats since it loads  
the NIB from its init method (meaning a subclass hasn't quite been  
initialized when its NIB gets loaded), but it might be a good start  
for seeing how to do the NIB-loading stuff if you still need 10.4  
support. I'm planning on doing a version that is modeled after  
NSViewController, but can't give an ETA.


Cheers,
-- Uli Kusterer
"The Witnesses of TeachText are everywhere..."
http://www.zathras.de





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RE: Newbie interface questions - multiple "modal" windows

[Matthew Youney]

I have proceeded in the direction of the tab container today.  Quite
(extremely) easy to do.  Performance is fine.  All of the Cocoa UI objects
seem very lightweight.  I will probably "weigh things down" a bit with some
images, etc. later on.  I do really like the look and feel of the Cocoa/Mac
UI, as do my customers, and the rest of the world I guess.

Also, as a side note:
The structure, documentation of Cocoa, as well as observation of this forum
has helped me to evolve (clean up) my OI technique, and hopefully take my
code to the next level.  Although I have always been a very "hardware
oriented" programmer, and I am enjoying this experience.  A bit of a
learning curve, but anything worth doing...

I just do not want to get into any bad habits early on here, and appreciate
any advice and/or criticism.

Thanks,
Matt

-Original Message-
From: Jens Alfke [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Tuesday, June 17, 2008 4:35 PM
To: Matthew Youney
Cc: Graham Cox; Cocoa
Subject: Re: Newbie interface questions - multiple "modal" windows


On 17 Jun '08, at 7:30 AM, Matthew Youney wrote:

> This certainly can be easily done using a tab control.  The downside
> is that
> the entire NIB is loaded at once, adversely affecting performance/
> resources.

Have you found this to be true in actual operation, or do you just
suspect that it would be slow? I think it would take a very complex
nib, with hundreds of controls, to cause an objectionable pause on
load. Especially since it sounds like you'd load this when the
application first launches and keep it around thereafter.

There are other valid reasons for using multiple nibs - it keeps them
simpler and easier to work with - but don't let premature optimization
alone dictate what you do.

-Jens


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Re: Newbie interface questions - multiple "modal" windows

[Jens Alfke]

On 17 Jun '08, at 7:30 AM, Matthew Youney wrote:

This certainly can be easily done using a tab control.  The downside  
is that
the entire NIB is loaded at once, adversely affecting performance/ 
resources.


Have you found this to be true in actual operation, or do you just  
suspect that it would be slow? I think it would take a very complex  
nib, with hundreds of controls, to cause an objectionable pause on  
load. Especially since it sounds like you'd load this when the  
application first launches and keep it around thereafter.


There are other valid reasons for using multiple nibs — it keeps them  
simpler and easier to work with — but don't let premature optimization  
alone dictate what you do.


—Jens

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Re: Newbie interface questions - multiple "modal" windows

[Michael Ash]

On Mon, Jun 16, 2008 at 7:06 PM, Omar Qazi <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> On Jun 16, 2008, at 4:38 PM, Matthew Youney wrote:
>>
>> 1.  What is the best way to instantiate the "other" windows?  In this
>> application, all of the windows are quite unique, and there will never be
>> more than one instance of each.  Should this be done in the "main"
>> controller by loading the NIB, instantiating the other controller, and
>> then
>> showing the window?
>
> I agree that this sounds like a bad idea, but if you have good reason to,
> you might want to have a NSWindowController and nib for each window.

I disagree that this sounds like a bad idea.Having one
NSWindowController and nib per window is a fantastic idea, and is how
everything should be done. Breaking your program into smaller modules
is a fundamental part of programming and it's one of the best things
you can do to make the program easier to write, easier to modify, and
easier to understand.

Mike
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Re: Newbie interface questions - multiple "modal" windows

[Ricky Sharp]

On Jun 17, 2008, at 9:30 AM, Matthew Youney wrote:

The screens in out operator interfaces have to be mutually exclusive  
for a

number of reasons.  Configuration in one area cannot be altered unless
configuration in another area has been completed.  Product  
configuration

cannot be taking place while a machine is running production, etc.



This sounds quite a bit like what my kiosk-style app does.  The user  
is able to navigate amongst 'screens' and only interact with one at a  
time.  Clicking on 'buttons' often take users to a different screen.


Anyhow, you could set up a single window and dynamically load up your  
nibs (one for each 'step' in the process) and swap out the window's  
content view.  The nib owner can be the particular controller that  
will work with a specific step.


For bonus points, add in some nice view transitions when going to the  
next step.


___
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Instant Interactive(tm)   http://www.instantinteractive.com

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Re: Newbie interface questions - multiple "modal" windows

[glenn andreas]

On Jun 17, 2008, at 9:30 AM, Matthew Youney wrote:

This certainly can be easily done using a tab control.  The downside  
is that
the entire NIB is loaded at once, adversely affecting performance/ 
resources.
This is not the end of the world, however I am starting with a  
"clean slate"

here, and I want to design the best app possible, as well as learn and
implement Cocoa's best practices early on.



You can load views into tabs from multiple NIBs as needed - under 10.5  
using NSViewController (or some manual grunt work under 10.4).


Basically just have a "place holder view" that is in the tab view, and  
set up the tab views delegate to replace the place holder view with  
the "real" contents when that tab is about to be shown.


I've done this in the past (not so much due to the performance issues  
of NIB loading, but rather due to the pain of editing deeply nested  
views within tab views that manifests in various ways in different  
versions of IB)




Glenn Andreas  [EMAIL PROTECTED]
  wicked fun!
JSKit | the easy way to unite JavaScript and Objective C



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RE: Newbie interface questions - multiple "modal" windows

[Matthew Youney]

Jens, Graham, List,

First, a bit of background :
Yes, I am coming from multiple other platforms (ms c++; ms.net, national
instruments CVI, multiple industrial HMI/SCADA, Kiel for proprietary
embedded, etc, etc.).  We write machine control applications for a variety
of industries.  www.youney.com The applications that I am speaking of are
not your typical desktop applications, and are not designed as such.  There
are very specific hardware, software, and safety reasons why our GUIs are
laid out the way that they are.  I do not mean to be closed minded, and I do
realize that there is always a better solution, and strongly believe in
constant improvement.

The screens in out operator interfaces have to be mutually exclusive for a
number of reasons.  Configuration in one area cannot be altered unless
configuration in another area has been completed.  Product configuration
cannot be taking place while a machine is running production, etc.

This certainly can be easily done using a tab control.  The downside is that
the entire NIB is loaded at once, adversely affecting performance/resources.
This is not the end of the world, however I am starting with a "clean slate"
here, and I want to design the best app possible, as well as learn and
implement Cocoa's best practices early on.

I greatly appreciate the experience, wisdom, and expertise of the pros on
this list.  Much of this lists traffic is at a very high level of expertise,
and I am somewhat embarrassed with my rudimentary questions.

Thanks to all,
Matt

-Original Message-
From: Graham Cox [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Monday, June 16, 2008 9:36 PM
To: Jens Alfke
Cc: Matthew Youney; Cocoa
Subject: Re: Newbie interface questions - multiple "modal" windows


On 17 Jun 2008, at 10:39 am, Jens Alfke wrote:

>> I would think that this is a common application architecture (it is
>> to me)
>
> You may be coming from another platform? I can't think of any Mac
> apps that do this, and frankly, I wouldn't want to use one that did.


It does sort of sound like a wizard or agent type interface, where
each "step" is completed one at a time, like the Installer or Apple
Setup Assistant. If so, those might be a better model, where there is
one window and a forward/backward button? I may have misunderstood
however - it certainly does sound like a terrible UI if each one *has*
to be in a separate window. Modal hell.


Graham


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Re: Newbie interface questions - multiple "modal" windows

[Omar Qazi]

On Jun 16, 2008, at 4:38 PM, Matthew Youney wrote:


1.  What is the best way to instantiate the “other” windows?  In this
application, all of the windows are quite unique, and there will  
never be

more than one instance of each.  Should this be done in the “main”
controller by loading the NIB, instantiating the other controller,  
and then

showing the window?



I agree that this sounds like a bad idea, but if you have good reason  
to, you might want to have a NSWindowController and nib for each  
window. Perhaps you should be more specific on how you intend to use  
the modal windows, and why they need to be modal.


As for your second question, I can't think of any examples of this,  
because I've never seen an application do this before. Maybe something  
with sheets?


Omar Qazi
Hello, Galaxy!
1.310.294.1593



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Re: Newbie interface questions - multiple "modal" windows

[Graham Cox]

On 17 Jun 2008, at 10:39 am, Jens Alfke wrote:

I would think that this is a common application architecture (it is  
to me)


You may be coming from another platform? I can't think of any Mac  
apps that do this, and frankly, I wouldn't want to use one that did.



It does sort of sound like a wizard or agent type interface, where  
each "step" is completed one at a time, like the Installer or Apple  
Setup Assistant. If so, those might be a better model, where there is  
one window and a forward/backward button? I may have misunderstood  
however - it certainly does sound like a terrible UI if each one *has*  
to be in a separate window. Modal hell.



Graham
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Re: Newbie interface questions - multiple "modal" windows

[Jens Alfke]

On 16 Jun '08, at 4:38 PM, Matthew Youney wrote:

I am creating an application that requires multiple “modal”  
windows.  There

is a “main” window, and there are multiple other windows that can be
displayed from the main window (using a toolbar, buttons, etc.).   
These
“other” windows need to be modal, that is these windows must receive  
all

user input, and be closed before returning to the “main” window.


Do you have any influence over the UI of this app, or was it dictated  
by someone else? I ask because this sounds like a bad UI design to me  
— modal windows should be avoided whenever possible, because they  
constrain what the user can do (and can confuse novice users,  
especially.)


For example, in this design you can never have more than one of those  
windows open at once. That would be pretty annoying if someone needed  
to do something that required going back and forth between them. I  
don't know what they do, but I can imagine being halfway through  
finishing with one window, and needing to look up a value from another  
window, but not being able to do so without canceling the current  
window and losing progress...


Is there a fundamental reason why those windows couldn't be enabled at  
once? Or why you couldn't put all of this UI into a single window,  
using something like an tab-view to switch between them?


I would think that this is a common application architecture (it is  
to me)


You may be coming from another platform? I can't think of any Mac apps  
that do this, and frankly, I wouldn't want to use one that did.


—Jens

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Newbie interface questions - multiple "modal" windows

[Matthew Youney]

I am creating an application that requires multiple “modal” windows.  There
is a “main” window, and there are multiple other windows that can be
displayed from the main window (using a toolbar, buttons, etc.).  These
“other” windows need to be modal, that is these windows must receive all
user input, and be closed before returning to the “main” window.  These are
important windows with many controls, and not simple dialogs.  I have all of
the “bits and pieces” of this app working quite well, and I am having some
difficulty tying it all together with the GUI.

I do understand that there are many [very different] ways to accomplish
this, but being new to Cocoa, I want to make sure that I choose a sound
technique.  Reading the user interface guidelines, I understand that all of
these windows should be in separate NIB files, and loaded as needed for
performance reasons.

1.  What is the best way to instantiate the “other” windows?  In this
application, all of the windows are quite unique, and there will never be
more than one instance of each.  Should this be done in the “main”
controller by loading the NIB, instantiating the other controller, and then
showing the window?
2.  I would think that this is a common application architecture (it is to
me), however have not been able to find any sort of examples, in print or on
the web.  Is anyone aware of any that you could direct me to, no matter how
simplistic?

Thanks in advance for steering me in the right direction here.
Matt
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