Re: Overwhelming Options
Quincey Morris (1/9/11, 21:42) said: >If it should happen that there was a practical need to change the column >display frequently (dozens of times per day), choosing individual >columns from a context menu would get very old very fast. In that case, >the only practical choice might be an array of 39 checkboxes. ... which is what you get if you choose View Options from the iTunes View menu. Jeremy ___ Cocoa-dev mailing list (Cocoa-dev@lists.apple.com) Please do not post admin requests or moderator comments to the list. Contact the moderators at cocoa-dev-admins(at)lists.apple.com Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription: http://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/cocoa-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com This email sent to arch...@mail-archive.com
Re: Overwhelming Options
Quincy, Thanks for the feedback...right now I think I need to take some additional time and prototype some possible UI changes for more feedback. Problem with this situation is that it is difficult to get feedback...so essentially I'm told "add options, and then keep it the same"...which doesn't really work. So when I make significant changes its not usually a good thing...so I may be fighting a losing battle anyhow. Thanks again, jeremy On Sep 1, 2011, at 4:42 PM, Quincey Morris wrote: > On Sep 1, 2011, at 11:48 , Jeremy Matthews wrote: > >> It's an internal app for "power users"...and its been a struggle to reduce >> it so far. >> I've been told that the current options need to stay putso no reducing >> for the moment. > > There's no useful discussion possible without more information about what the > options represent. I don't mean proprietary information; I mean information > about how the options are used. > > Are the options theoretically independent? Independent in practice? Are they > preferences (adjust app behavior in advance), or optional sections of > processing (skip over things), or input parameters, or …? > > For comparison, I just looked at iTunes's column header context menu. The > purpose of this menu is to allow you to choose which columns you want to > display in library listing. There are 39 independent choices in the menu > (columns that may be shown or hidden independently), plus two "Auto something > or other" commands. > > This is not a case where the answer is, "There are too many options, reduce > them." (Though perhaps in a different discussion, that point could be > argued.) This particular UI works because users *typically* want to make only > a few choices different from the default, and that only occasionally. > > If it should happen that there was a practical need to change the column > display frequently (dozens of times per day), choosing individual columns > from a context menu would get very old very fast. In that case, the only > practical choice might be an array of 39 checkboxes. > > My point is that your usability requirements will drive your decisions about > how to present the options. We don't know your usability requirements, so we > can't do much more than sympathize with your dilemma. > > Don't forget to be creative in the UI variations you consider. For a set of > on/off choices, as well as checkboxes you can use menus (with checked items), > tables (with selected or checked rows), dual tables (with "off" options in > one table and "on" options in the other and the ability drag between them) > and text fields (with option names that can be typed in, instead of check > marks). Can you use presets for obvious combinations of options? > > If you're maintaining an existing app that has all these options, how about > modifying the app to collect statistical information about how and when the > options are used. Will that give you a clearer picture of what might actually > improve the app? > > ___ Cocoa-dev mailing list (Cocoa-dev@lists.apple.com) Please do not post admin requests or moderator comments to the list. Contact the moderators at cocoa-dev-admins(at)lists.apple.com Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription: http://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/cocoa-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com This email sent to arch...@mail-archive.com
Re: Overwhelming Options
On Sep 1, 2011, at 11:48 , Jeremy Matthews wrote: > It's an internal app for "power users"...and its been a struggle to reduce it > so far. > I've been told that the current options need to stay putso no reducing > for the moment. There's no useful discussion possible without more information about what the options represent. I don't mean proprietary information; I mean information about how the options are used. Are the options theoretically independent? Independent in practice? Are they preferences (adjust app behavior in advance), or optional sections of processing (skip over things), or input parameters, or …? For comparison, I just looked at iTunes's column header context menu. The purpose of this menu is to allow you to choose which columns you want to display in library listing. There are 39 independent choices in the menu (columns that may be shown or hidden independently), plus two "Auto something or other" commands. This is not a case where the answer is, "There are too many options, reduce them." (Though perhaps in a different discussion, that point could be argued.) This particular UI works because users *typically* want to make only a few choices different from the default, and that only occasionally. If it should happen that there was a practical need to change the column display frequently (dozens of times per day), choosing individual columns from a context menu would get very old very fast. In that case, the only practical choice might be an array of 39 checkboxes. My point is that your usability requirements will drive your decisions about how to present the options. We don't know your usability requirements, so we can't do much more than sympathize with your dilemma. Don't forget to be creative in the UI variations you consider. For a set of on/off choices, as well as checkboxes you can use menus (with checked items), tables (with selected or checked rows), dual tables (with "off" options in one table and "on" options in the other and the ability drag between them) and text fields (with option names that can be typed in, instead of check marks). Can you use presets for obvious combinations of options? If you're maintaining an existing app that has all these options, how about modifying the app to collect statistical information about how and when the options are used. Will that give you a clearer picture of what might actually improve the app? ___ Cocoa-dev mailing list (Cocoa-dev@lists.apple.com) Please do not post admin requests or moderator comments to the list. Contact the moderators at cocoa-dev-admins(at)lists.apple.com Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription: http://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/cocoa-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com This email sent to arch...@mail-archive.com
Re: Overwhelming Options
On Sep 1, 2011, at 12:36 PM, Jeremy Matthews wrote: > I have an app with some groups of checkboxes...and it really takes up too > much space in the UI. > > It is a utility app, but it has about 7 different matricies of about 6 > checkboxes eachso lots of options...and it can be overwhelming at times. > I'd like to design a better UI so as to not take up so much space in the UI, > and at the same time, make it appear a bit simpler, and hide categories (of > checkboxes) unless you need to see them. Some thoughts for managing the complexity: Maybe use a tab view, with each matrix in a different tab. If possible given the nature of your app, show previews that change in real time as the user fiddles with settings. See if there are alternate ways of presenting choices that might be more intuitive. Consider, for example, the autosizing UI in IB (at least in Xcode 3; I haven't looked at it in Xcode 4). The struts and springs interface is essentially another way of presenting six binary choices in a way that's more intuitive than checkboxes. And the autoresizing preview updates automatically as you change the settings. It's very possible your app isn't amenable to more visually creative solutions. Sometimes six checkboxes is the best you can do. But maybe this can be at least food for thought. --Andy > I'm considering migrating to an OutlineView, or perhaps the new View-based > TableView...but I was wondering what other folks have done out there to make > sure their users are not overwhelmed by having too many choices at their > disposal. > > Thanks, > j ___ Cocoa-dev mailing list (Cocoa-dev@lists.apple.com) Please do not post admin requests or moderator comments to the list. Contact the moderators at cocoa-dev-admins(at)lists.apple.com Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription: http://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/cocoa-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com This email sent to arch...@mail-archive.com
Re: Overwhelming Options
It's an internal app for "power users"...and its been a struggle to reduce it so far. I've been told that the current options need to stay putso no reducing for the moment. ...but I don't like it either... Thanks, j On Sep 1, 2011, at 1:51 PM, Jens Alfke wrote: > > On Sep 1, 2011, at 9:58 AM, Thomas Davie wrote: > >> Can I ask what your app is? I find it hard to believe that your user really >> needs to set 42 boolean flags. There must surely a better way to think >> about the configuration. > > Agreed. If Apple’s UI designers were looking at your app they’d strike out > 90% of those checkboxes immediately. (In my experience they always try to > limit an app to fewer prefs than it actually needs, and then the engineering > team and/or end-users fight back, and it ends up a decent compromise.) > > —Jens ___ Cocoa-dev mailing list (Cocoa-dev@lists.apple.com) Please do not post admin requests or moderator comments to the list. Contact the moderators at cocoa-dev-admins(at)lists.apple.com Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription: http://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/cocoa-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com This email sent to arch...@mail-archive.com
Re: Overwhelming Options
On Sep 1, 2011, at 9:58 AM, Thomas Davie wrote: > Can I ask what your app is? I find it hard to believe that your user really > needs to set 42 boolean flags. There must surely a better way to think about > the configuration. Agreed. If Apple’s UI designers were looking at your app they’d strike out 90% of those checkboxes immediately. (In my experience they always try to limit an app to fewer prefs than it actually needs, and then the engineering team and/or end-users fight back, and it ends up a decent compromise.) —Jens___ Cocoa-dev mailing list (Cocoa-dev@lists.apple.com) Please do not post admin requests or moderator comments to the list. Contact the moderators at cocoa-dev-admins(at)lists.apple.com Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription: http://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/cocoa-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com This email sent to arch...@mail-archive.com
Re: Overwhelming Options
Can I ask what your app is? I find it hard to believe that your user really
needs to set 42 boolean flags. There must surely a better way to think about
the configuration.
Tom Davie
if (*ra4 != 0xffc78948) { return false; }
On 1 Sep 2011, at 17:36, Jeremy Matthews wrote:
> I have an app with some groups of checkboxes...and it really takes up too
> much space in the UI.
>
> It is a utility app, but it has about 7 different matricies of about 6
> checkboxes eachso lots of options...and it can be overwhelming at times.
> I'd like to design a better UI so as to not take up so much space in the UI,
> and at the same time, make it appear a bit simpler, and hide categories (of
> checkboxes) unless you need to see them.
>
> I'm considering migrating to an OutlineView, or perhaps the new View-based
> TableView...but I was wondering what other folks have done out there to make
> sure their users are not overwhelmed by having too many choices at their
> disposal.
___
Cocoa-dev mailing list (Cocoa-dev@lists.apple.com)
Please do not post admin requests or moderator comments to the list.
Contact the moderators at cocoa-dev-admins(at)lists.apple.com
Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription:
http://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/cocoa-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com
This email sent to arch...@mail-archive.com
Overwhelming Options
I have an app with some groups of checkboxes...and it really takes up too much space in the UI. It is a utility app, but it has about 7 different matricies of about 6 checkboxes eachso lots of options...and it can be overwhelming at times. I'd like to design a better UI so as to not take up so much space in the UI, and at the same time, make it appear a bit simpler, and hide categories (of checkboxes) unless you need to see them. I'm considering migrating to an OutlineView, or perhaps the new View-based TableView...but I was wondering what other folks have done out there to make sure their users are not overwhelmed by having too many choices at their disposal. Thanks, j ___ Cocoa-dev mailing list (Cocoa-dev@lists.apple.com) Please do not post admin requests or moderator comments to the list. Contact the moderators at cocoa-dev-admins(at)lists.apple.com Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription: http://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/cocoa-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com This email sent to arch...@mail-archive.com
