RE: [ANN] Avalon Closed
Stephen McConnell wrote: > Maybe this about making Apache a better place by identifying hypocrisy > here out in the open instead of behind the protection of private lists. <> The facts don't bear witness to the claim. > Maybe it's about dealing with the breach of procedure by the Chair of a > PMC and ensuring that this does not get rewarded nor repeated. Maybe > this is about sending a message to some of the members of the board that > coercion has consequence. None of which happened. --- Noel - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
RE: [ANN] Avalon Closed
Niclas Hedhman wrote: > I give you an example of what I call 'compromise' and 'collaboration' ; Those events as you describe them did happen. If they were the only ones, we'd have a happy healthy community. > Each individual works on what he/she finds interesting, relevant > and important. Opinions are appreciated, but by no means right, > just because a group within the community say so. Actually, all it takes to veto a change is one PMC member to cast a -1 with a technical justification. The issue is how a community deals with those vetos, and how progress can be made by resolving them. --- Noel - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
RE: [ANN] Avalon Closed
Niclas Hedhman wrote: > Noel J. Bergman wrote: > > http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=attrition. > Why didn't you list the meanings given by your link Because people can read. > 1. and 2. is probably what people are referring to Yes. > Some highly successful projects in ASF, has started with just a > few people, and not exceeding 5 in its first year. > Now, there are 4 developers in Metro who hack around in the core, > and ~3-4 working on aux stuff. Point? You seem to keep forgetting that I supported Merlin havine a home at the ASF. --- Noel - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
RE: [ANN] Avalon Closed
> The active committer community objected to the transfer of > dead code from cvs to svn, arguing that the Avalon svn > should contain the active alive code. And that would have been wrong. SVN is our successor to CVS, and we are to PRESERVE *ALL* history of our code, which is an asset. > In my mind (and I'm not alone) this was the start of a fallout > between the chair, certain members of the board, and members of > the Avalon development community. I'm not on the Board, and I am one of the most vocal at insisting on absolute preservation of development history. --- Noel - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [ANN] Avalon Closed
On Tuesday 21 December 2004 05:05, Rodent of Unusual Size wrote: > Niclas Hedhman wrote: > >> Who wants to commit any code or do anything in an environment as > >> poisonous as Avalon was at the time? > > > > 4. So you don't want to spend any time in Avalon, but you really do want > > to make it hard for everyone else? There has to be more than one to have > > a disagreement. > > Regardless of whether there was any 'right' or 'wrong' position, it > appears that there were irreducible differences. I only recall one > side expressing a willingness to compromise. My memory may be imperfect, > though. I am sure that you have some very specific episode in mind, and by leaving that out, it is hard to respond to it. I give you an example of what I call 'compromise' and 'collaboration' ; * The Merlin camp was accused of bulldozing the people who supported the Excalibur/Fortress platforms. * The Excalibur codebase was in a terrible shape and didn't build. * Fortress was in slightly better shape, but couldn't build in a single invocation, due to internal cyclic dependencies. * Fortress and Excalibur has cyclic dependencies between them. * There was a cyclic dependency that went via a project in the Incubator (AltRMI). * I spent several weeks (actual man-weeks) unnesting all of that, and making it ready for a final release. * I then spend additional unknown amount of time, to get the same codebases (+Phoenix) to build in Gump. (note, Steve helped out a lot in the above excersize, but was primarily focusing on getting Merlin ready for a release.) Now, if I have no sense of "collaboration", "taking care of the Legacy" and "compromise" (in this case balancing my time between Excalibur vs Merlin), then I have no clue what you guys expect from people. If "inability of compromise" is the same as refusing to implement what others think should be done, then just about every single project in ASF is guilty as charged. Each individual works on what he/she finds interesting, relevant and important. Opinions are appreciated, but by no means right, just because a group within the community say so. > >> The only ones willing to keep committing were > >> those who were determined to bulldoze there agenda into the repository. > > > > 5. In a positive atmosphere, it would be called; "Prepared to take > > action, when paralysis had set into the community." > > ISTR some issues about ignored vetos and vetos without sufficient > justification. (Don't know what ISTR stands for) Ok, I would like to know of these vetoes. Not more FUD. The only veto I know of that has been in dispute, is Leo Simons veto against the new site, which in defense I say; 1. It came in late, long after the change was executed. 2. His issue was regarding the change of wording in the specification of the AF4.2, which he claimed was an incompatible change for component authors. 3. In the midst of that clarification, heaps of people stepped in with other issues, murking what is on the table of a veto and what is not; - Berin Loritsch had a list of issues, IIRC, mostly concerning missing redirect links, and I recall the final conversation with him that his concerns were all addressable. - Stefano Mazzocchi jump in, making a big thing about the Avalon Legacy and the people who was before (without noticing that he himself, together with a few others had been properly ADDED to the list of developers, which previously was missing before I dug into it.), which led to a Ford Thunderbird analogy (which *I* found amuzing). 4. Most people having negative reaction, fuelling the flames were not part of the "daily" Avalon community. Steve made the mistake of trying to defend our choices, which got out of hand and he resigned in response to make sure everything cool down. But that was all about Leo Simons veto... I am sure you must be talking about something else... > > The agenda was to promote Merlin > > into a platform for component oriented architecture. When that was > > considered being against approx half the PMC and some additional > > developers, we started the process of taking Merlin to TLP, but the > > Excalibur group just needed to be better, and by throwing in a second > > proposal, at least one member of the Board intervened privately, and > > asked us to drop the Merlin TLP and forge ahead with the new vision. Now, > > I call that a mandate. > > Please clarify what you mean by 'mandate' here. That the board was > mandating that you drop the Merlin TLP idea? Mandate that the Board, or parts thereof, thought it was better to spin the Legacy into a new project and let Avalon grow into a Merlin-based community and the visions we had. > > Yet, Excalibur TLP > > without me and Steve was manna from heaven for this group, but it was > > definately a matter of balkanization along people and not technology. > > Something Mr Coar would never agree to. > > One thing I don't agree to is people putting words in my mouth. P
Re: [ANN] Avalon Closed
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Stephen McConnell wrote: > > Irrespective > of the validity of this opinion - members of the board actively > encouraged Aaron to ignore any PMC opinion and take an "executive" > decision. Provide citations supporting this, please. - -- #kenP-)} Ken Coar, Sanagendamgagwedweinini http://Ken.Coar.Org/ Author, developer, opinionist http://Apache-Server.Com/ "Millennium hand and shrimp!" -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.2.4 (MingW32) Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org iQCVAwUBQcc++5rNPMCpn3XdAQHV4AP+JmzuBCMztjvIGTex5CURBINxAQbJPWXg JuCiEYMyzYXVgdwxFQN9Hw3Nn7pK4B/M2060sPNYQEF3nz3actxH3NsLZ7Yth2Xw 4NVQAz5cPDJ/PvtFlnE7h5ossgu6HJE82J27BLOKiMSWMNe7597QqTJkeqARxSDB HLG6ztoDiMw= =a1vc -END PGP SIGNATURE- - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [ANN] Avalon Closed
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Stephen McConnell wrote: > > Maybe it's about dealing with the breach of procedure by the Chair of a > PMC and ensuring that this does not get rewarded nor repeated. Once again, there was no technical breach of procedure. Of custom, perhaps, but not of procedure. This is another dead horse that should stop getting beaten. Complain about the violation of custom, if you like, but stop stating/insinuating that ASF policies/procedures were violated. It didn't happen, at least not in the situation under discussion. > Maybe > this is about sending a message to some of the members of the board that > coercion has consequence. Actually, I'm seeing quite a number of attempts here to 'send messages' to several different destinations. So far most of them seem to be getting marked 'return to sender.' Or perhaps they aren't really there, and I need to have my prescription changed so I don't see 'em any more. - -- #kenP-)} Ken Coar, Sanagendamgagwedweinini http://Ken.Coar.Org/ Author, developer, opinionist http://Apache-Server.Com/ "Millennium hand and shrimp!" -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.2.4 (MingW32) Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org iQCVAwUBQcdBKprNPMCpn3XdAQG8WwP9FQ47BhsQpvn4AMKXAgcHgEDEGVoCtZ/X RmH6AnupOB1Y96uFgzIqlWoSP+MzkuXvuSD8BtB+HFvDfV4BGovpAAwtUE8SGEsp XNZdYakAFnTg/wWx85Yr5dXZKBLV1XKEtK5DEAmueV8JuHL729RzB6xbVVpsRJtr RELBBzoewgw= =tSDL -END PGP SIGNATURE- - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [ANN] Avalon Closed
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Niclas Hedhman wrote: > >> Who wants to commit any code or do anything in an environment as >> poisonous as Avalon was at the time? > > 4. So you don't want to spend any time in Avalon, but you really do want to > make it hard for everyone else? There has to be more than one to have a > disagreement. Regardless of whether there was any 'right' or 'wrong' position, it appears that there were irreducible differences. I only recall one side expressing a willingness to compromise. My memory may be imperfect, though. >> The only ones willing to keep committing were >> those who were determined to bulldoze there agenda into the repository. > > 5. In a positive atmosphere, it would be called; "Prepared to take action, > when paralysis had set into the community." ISTR some issues about ignored vetos and vetos without sufficient justification. > The agenda was to promote Merlin > into a platform for component oriented architecture. When that was considered > being against approx half the PMC and some additional developers, we started > the process of taking Merlin to TLP, but the Excalibur group just needed to > be better, and by throwing in a second proposal, at least one member of the > Board intervened privately, and asked us to drop the Merlin TLP and forge > ahead with the new vision. Now, I call that a mandate. Please clarify what you mean by 'mandate' here. That the board was mandating that you drop the Merlin TLP idea? > Yet, Excalibur TLP > without me and Steve was manna from heaven for this group, but it was > definately a matter of balkanization along people and not technology. > Something Mr Coar would never agree to. One thing I don't agree to is people putting words in my mouth. Please cease doing so. >> Then why in the world are you bringing your grief back here? > > 8. "grief". My dear little boy, if you call this "grief" you don't know much > about life. Call me when someone really near to you pass away, and then we > can talk about grief. I believe this is a cultural miscommunication. I think Aaron meant grief as in 'giving grief': >> In retrospect, do I regret that we now are active outside ASF? No, not at >> all. > > Then why in the world are you bringing your grief back here? 'If you have no regrets about having moved outside the ASF, why do you care what happens there and why are you contributing to this thread?' Aaron can correct me if I'm wrong. In any event, on the face of it I consider your 'my dear little boy' remark to be condescending, offensive, and uncalled-for. But that too might be a lingual/cultural misunderstanding. > Maybe I am just satanistic sadist who like to kick a dead horse. Maybe I > happen to think that a great injustice has been made, and don't like when > people make statements portrayed as facts, when they at the most can be > called perceptions. Heh. Sounds like the pot and kettle calling each other black. - -- #kenP-)} Ken Coar, Sanagendamgagwedweinini http://Ken.Coar.Org/ Author, developer, opinionist http://Apache-Server.Com/ "Millennium hand and shrimp!" -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.2.4 (MingW32) Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org iQCVAwUBQcc+mZrNPMCpn3XdAQHjEgQAlXpZfmfBipX7UI3UAW4vvJSx0VG1GYNJ hEtT+l+veoLumaPOJWuLBEfNUp5VoF/q/l8gOYPieXuz4q54G8M4CTw4WelP/fxv ljSQZOFgHz1Jg2+5/PMaJVMMHR0NIM6Pni4bLgU1Ta2IRyR6t9De4d4YZHm3zxT/ 5ludNB0pn5M= =oxoX -END PGP SIGNATURE- - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Is ASL2.0 not "GPL-compatible" ??
On Tue, 21 Dec 2004, Niclas Hedhman wrote: On Monday 20 December 2004 23:54, Joshua Slive wrote: Niclas Hedhman wrote: Does anyone know, and preferably have any authorative-like links ?? http://www.apache.org/licenses/ http://www.apache.org/licenses/GPL-compatibility.html thanks!!! Of far more interest I think: http://www.gnu.org/philosophy/license-list.html#GPLIncompatibleLicenses The list of incompatible licences is not a small one. Hen - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Is ASL2.0 not "GPL-compatible" ??
On Monday 20 December 2004 23:54, Joshua Slive wrote: > Niclas Hedhman wrote: > > Does anyone know, and preferably have any authorative-like links ?? > > http://www.apache.org/licenses/ > http://www.apache.org/licenses/GPL-compatibility.html thanks!!! -- +--//---+ / http://www.dpml.net / / http://niclas.hedhman.org / +--//---+ - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Is ASL2.0 not "GPL-compatible" ??
Niclas Hedhman wrote: ... Does anyone know, and preferably have any authorative-like links ?? http://www.apache.org/licenses/GPL-compatibility.html -- Nicola Ken Barozzi [EMAIL PROTECTED] - verba volant, scripta manent - (discussions get forgotten, just code remains) - - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Is ASL2.0 not "GPL-compatible" ??
Niclas Hedhman wrote: Does anyone know, and preferably have any authorative-like links ?? http://www.apache.org/licenses/ http://www.apache.org/licenses/GPL-compatibility.html Joshua. - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Is ASL2.0 not "GPL-compatible" ??
The Jini community is in the mix of going Open Source and I would like to influence Sun to choose the ASL2.0. However, Are there other license possibilities? Sure. The Apache 2.0 license I mentioned is one: http://apache.org/licenses/LICENSE-2.0 Against our desired characteristics, it's failing is that the Free Software Foundation (creator of the GPL) says it isn't GPL compatible. We feel pretty strongly that we want a GPL compatible license, and we think the patent non-assertion promise coupled with the MIT license will be acceptable those who would otherwise prefer the Apache 2.0 license. So how is it? Is ASL2.0 GPL compatible or is it not? If it is NOT, then there are a lot of swamp out there in the Linux world, where Apache products are used to create larger apps which are GPLed. Please note the direction here... IOW, Can I re-license an ASL2.0 product under the GPL?? I thought I could. Why does Sun quote FSF saying I can't do that? Does anyone know, and preferably have any authorative-like links ?? Cheers Niclas -- +--//---+ / http://www.dpml.net / / http://niclas.hedhman.org / +--//---+ - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [ANN] Avalon Closed
Thanks to those who helped lay the issues to rest, happy ranting to those who wish to beat the dead horse, and long live good code in whatever forum is appropriate to it. Amen, +1 Scott - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
RE: [ANN] Avalon Closed
At 09:21 PM 12/19/2004, Stephen McConnell wrote: >Maybe this about making Apache a better place by identifying hypocrisy >here out in the open instead of behind the protection of private lists. >Maybe it's about dealing with the breach of procedure by the Chair of a >PMC and ensuring that this does not get rewarded nor repeated. The phrase "can't we all get along" comes to mind. Clearly that wasn't the case here, which is why, clearly, this code had moved on to other venues. Apache is about community (hence, the title of this mailing list) and to my understanding, such didn't exist, or was so fractured as to imply there was no salvaging it. Thanks to those who helped lay the issues to rest, happy ranting to those who wish to beat the dead horse, and long live good code in whatever forum is appropriate to it. Bill - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [ANN] Avalon Closed
Niclas Hedhman wrote: That doesn't mean it's fair, or even matters that much. Passing judgement on someone often doesn't matter much, except to the 'convicted'. "Not guilty" vs "4 weeks in jail with parole" can change someone's life dramatically. Never-the-less. Someone could write a novel on all the ways I've failed with respect to the James project. Did you see that huge list of terrible dependencies? I was the original code donator that got convinced to adopt to this Avalon product (...that was only a few months away from releasing this great server platform.) Hell, we're still losing to sendmail! I just don't know what the big deal is about failing an open source project. I certainly would never compare it to a conviction, guilt, or jail. Are you hinting that ASF's significance will diminish over time, as it is unable to cope with its own growth in light of the legacy? Is there a scalability issue with OSS in general? In ASF? Are there long-term problems of keeping smaller projects healthy? How about the larger ones? Do they need the benevolent dictator with his lieutenants? In a word, "dunno." -- Serge Knystautas Lokitech >> software . strategy . design >> http://www.lokitech.com p. 301.656.5501 e. [EMAIL PROTECTED] - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
RE: [ANN] Avalon Closed
If the ASF doesn't work for you then get busy at dpml. Really, go and innovate. But, please don't stick around and try to prove a point by continuously trolling the community@ list. - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
RE: [ANN] Avalon Closed
> -Original Message- > From: Serge Knystautas [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] > I can somewhat understand though not empathize with > wanting to have history reflect what you see as having happened. Maybe this about making Apache a better place by identifying hypocrisy here out in the open instead of behind the protection of private lists. Maybe it's about dealing with the breach of procedure by the Chair of a PMC and ensuring that this does not get rewarded nor repeated. Maybe this is about sending a message to some of the members of the board that coercion has consequence. Stephen. > -- > Serge Knystautas > Lokitech >> software . strategy . design >> http://www.lokitech.com p. > 301.656.5501 e. [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > - > To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [ANN] Avalon Closed
On Monday 20 December 2004 10:01, Serge Knystautas wrote: > That doesn't mean it's fair, or even matters that much. Passing judgement on someone often doesn't matter much, except to the 'convicted'. "Not guilty" vs "4 weeks in jail with parole" can change someone's life dramatically. Never-the-less. > To > play devil's advocate, everything new I use is built outside of the ASF, > so what's the big deal about having to take your code elsewhere? Besides some few weeks of code transmorphing, license-based impossibilities of remaining totally backward compatible and the hassles coming from our choice of hosting ourselves (cost of dedicated hosting is dropping rapidly), I now agree that being outside ASF has many advantages, and far fewer disadvantages than I expected. Are you hinting that ASF's significance will diminish over time, as it is unable to cope with its own growth in light of the legacy? Is there a scalability issue with OSS in general? In ASF? Are there long-term problems of keeping smaller projects healthy? How about the larger ones? Do they need the benevolent dictator with his lieutenants? Just some thoughts... Cheers Niclas -- +--//---+ / http://www.dpml.net / / http://niclas.hedhman.org / +--//---+ - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [ANN] Avalon Closed
Niclas Hedhman wrote: You really think that we consider that fair judgement? I do not blame you or Stephen or anyone individually for James's dependencies. Stephen asked the question of whether these dependencies could, or rather shouldn't it, lead me to direct blame at the ASF "establishment", and so I laid out the order in which I would assign blame. Regardless of organizational structure (which I gave), it is certainly the group of coders fault before someone who has never checked out the code, and certainly the loud coders before the others. That doesn't mean it's fair, or even matters that much. I think Aaron should be sainted because a) it was volunteer and b) it was a poisoned situation that needed to end. Nobody new should consider linking to that codebase. Just let it die and the phoenix will be reborn from its ashes (pun intended). There certainly seems a lot of illwill between you+Stephen and the ASF "establishment." I can somewhat understand though not empathize with wanting to have history reflect what you see as having happened. To play devil's advocate, everything new I use is built outside of the ASF, so what's the big deal about having to take your code elsewhere? -- Serge Knystautas Lokitech >> software . strategy . design >> http://www.lokitech.com p. 301.656.5501 e. [EMAIL PROTECTED] - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [ANN] Avalon Closed
On Friday 17 December 2004 00:13, Noel J. Bergman wrote: > Well, actually the dictionary does: > http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=attrition. And, yes, when someone > suggests that those who don't agree with him remove themselves from the > decision-making process, I would call that consensus by attrition. Why didn't you list the meanings given by your link; 1. A rubbing away or wearing down by friction. 2. A gradual diminution in number or strength because of constant stress. 3. A gradual, natural reduction in membership or personnel, as through retirement, resignation, or death. 4. Repentance for sin motivated by fear of punishment rather than by love of God. Assuming that 4. is not what people are talking about; 3. indicates that any reduction of numbers can be called by "attrition" irregardless of method for that to occur, which I would see no harm in per se. 1. and 2. is probably what people are referring to, which are essentially the same. Avalon has apparently been full of stress for a very long time, way before Merlin was in Steve's head. Heaps of people left due to it, a long, long time ago. I find it awkward that the most stress-tolerant people are accused of doing something bad. Are they responsible for adding to the stress? Yes. But so are many of the people who left. And regarding the developer/committer base in Merlin; Some highly successful projects in ASF, has started with just a few people, and not exceeding 5 in its first year. Merlin's first *beta* release was in Sep 2003, then effectively 1 committer. The first official release, endorsed by the PMC, was in late May this year, and effectively two core committers and 3-4 working on auxillary stuff. Now, there are 4 developers in Metro who hack around in the core, and ~3-4 working on aux stuff. I would call this natural progression, even within ASF. Attrition happens in all projects, no matter if they are successful or not. It is only how you play the word game, the FUD and the general politics whether it is perceived as 'believable' or not. Cheers Niclas -- +--//---+ / http://www.dpml.net / / http://niclas.hedhman.org / +--//---+ - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [ANN] Avalon Closed
[fixed-width font required] Serge, I disagree with your assessment that "You [Steve], as a primary actor in the Avalon community, failed..." 1. Steve is accused of becoming the "primary actor" of late, when the other primary actors, like Peter Donald, Berin Loritsch, Nicola Ken Barozzi, Paul Hammant, Stefano Mazzocchi (I probably left a few out), had left, i.e. towards the later part of 2003. 2. So, let's re-examine the history of WHEN the James entropy sets in, i.e. what has been 'killed' at which point in time; Dates in parenthesis, is the last trace I can find of it. +++ means possibly not rebuildable from source, as I have not been able to locate the source directories in CVS history, only deleted Jars in the Phoenix project. Prior to Mid-2003 (i.e. before I was heavily involved) excalibur-baxter-1.0a.jar DEAD+++ (27 Dec 2002) phoenix-client.jar DEAD+++ ( 4 Apr 2003 ) phoenix-bsh-commands.jarDEAD ( 2 Mar 2003 ) excalibur-threadcontext-1.0.jar DEAD+++ (28 Feb 2003) excalibur-containerkit-1.0.jar DEAD+++ (27 Dec 2002) excalibur-extension-1.0a.jarDEAD+++ (28 Feb 2003) These were repackaged into a "compatibility" deliverable, somewhere prior to mid-2003, and handed over to the Excalibur TLP under a "excalibur-compatibility" artifact/jar; excalibur-cli-1.0.jar REPLACE BY COMMONS CLI excalibur-collections-1.0.jar DEAD excalibur-io-1.1.jarREPLACE BY COMMONS IO excalibur-concurrent-1.0.jarDEAD During the period when I was actively monitoring, and later committer, in the Avalon project and Steve a "primary actor". * In the Excalibur TLP after taking over the code. excalibur-i18n-1.0.jar DEAD (No longer in source repository) excalibur-configuration-1.0.jar DEPRICATED excalibur-util-1.0.jar DEAD (No longer in source repository) excalibur-compatibility DEAD (No longer in source repository) containing the concurrent,cli,io and collections. Indecisive; excalibur-instrument-0.1.jarNEVER RELEASED (I would say that is due to Steve and my lack of interest in excalibur codebase.) cornerstone.jar UNRELEASED & UNREPRODUCABLE (Unreproducable due to missing version, even no snapshot id. Would have been released in due time.) Furthermore, the entire Excalibur codebase was not buildable when I came into the Avalon project. I and Stephen spent a few weeks to get it to build, and another few weeks to get Gump to build it. We had no interest in that codebase per se. We just 'collaborated'. NOW, for the Record, I get very upset when I look at the above, and that the we (Stephen McConnell & myself) are accused of; 1. Not collaborating and unable to compromise. 2. Not being concerned of other ASF users, such as Cocoon and James. 3. Not taking care of Avalon legacy. 4. Consensus by Attrition. To me it is more a matter of those who started Excalibur gave up on it, deserted the user base, and managed to blame someone else (Steve and perhaps me). As soon as the (basically) same group of primary actors, Berin & Peter, regains their 'position' (i.e. Excalibur TLP) further axing of the legacy is done, without much regards for projects like Cocoon and James. You really think that we consider that fair judgement? I assume, that most of the judgement passed on Steve from respectable people like yourself, is only amplified FUD created and propagated by people who are in disagreement with Steve on how Merlin should have been evolved. I can't see any other explanation... Tragic! > Can we start a new mailing list called [EMAIL PROTECTED] and > somehow redirect all avalon-related emails to that? Well, some people are interested in history and justice even if it is superficial. ( Oh, I forgot, I have the right to remain silent... Go straight to jail without passing GO. ) Cheers Niclas -- +--//---+ / http://www.dpml.net / / http://niclas.hedhman.org / +--//---+ - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [ANN] Avalon Closed
Stephen McConnell wrote: I've tried to stay out of this thread(s), but I just have to say, "give me a break." James was one of Avalon's most visible users, and I simply cannot stand to hear someone from Avalon criticize the ASF establishment about the treatment of Avalon users. Perhaps it could be argued that the following list positions James as a visible user of dead, never released, unreproducible, redundant and unsupported technology? I couldn't say. But I would like to know if this is what you meant by the ASF establishment taking care of the James community? Stephen, This is a straw man argument, because this is completely unrelated to my primary point, which was that nobody had malicious intentions. It also implies that had the board allowed you to create your TLC or Aaron hadn't shutdown Avalon, James would have had a better set of dependencies. But I'll play along for a moment. Projects have layers of responsibility. You, as a primary actor in the Avalon community, failed and are largely to blame for James' dependency situation. Since you failed, Aaron had a responsibility as PMC chair to do something, and he should be sainted for what he did. Had Aaron failed, the board would had the opportunity to act, and had we reached that point, I could have made a judgement on whether the nefarious "they" were taking care of the James community. [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Straw_man] Can we start a new mailing list called [EMAIL PROTECTED] and somehow redirect all avalon-related emails to that? -- Serge Knystautas Lokitech >> software . strategy . design >> http://www.lokitech.com p. 301.656.5501 e. [EMAIL PROTECTED] - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
