Re: Private mail lists [was: Inappropriate use of announce@]
Steven Noels wrote: Santiago Gala wrote: When I said: Just tell them. I think they are all PMC Chairs are subscribed to board, so it should be easy to tell them there to Sideway comment from my little peanut gallery: this is (only) the second time I overheard that PMC chairs can subscribe to board@ - in three years of (increasingly intensive) reading of non-project-specific ASF mail lists. Whether this is a 'can', a 'should', or a 'you are required to' is one of these hidden nuggets of information I would like to see novice chairs to be informed of in some explicit way. FWIW I received an e-mail immediately after the board meeting that voted on my becoming chair that described duties etc. and included the suggestion to subscribe to [EMAIL PROTECTED] My read was that this was just a "standard thing". Cheers, Berin - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Private mail lists [was: Inappropriate use of announce@]
Santiago Gala wrote: ... Another troublesome and interesting case is incubation processes. There are messages going back and forth between the incubator and the relevant pmc to take the project, and quite often the final acceptance decision is not documented anywhere, or barely so. And the process looks obscure from the outside, even when, reading the relevant (private) messages makes the process obvious and non-controversial. Should most of those processes be held in public? Yes. -- Nicola Ken Barozzi [EMAIL PROTECTED] - verba volant, scripta manent - (discussions get forgotten, just code remains) - - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Cleverer than yesterday (Re: Inappropriate use of announce@)
On Thu, 23 Oct 2003 21:25:09 +0200 Santiago Gala <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > (both in the harsh criticism trend, by one or the other, every one of > us is in the role at times, and in the sense that we learn that we can > survive to it and fight against it and be actually supported by other > people in the community and succeed and make the world change slightly > ;-) Big plus one! We are changing ourselves and we are making the world to be changed little by little! "We are smarter than yesterday" and "Time won't fly -- Time piles up" I think that one of the *BIG* motivations for the participants to OpenSource Communities is --- the feelings and the perceptions of "We are changing and our actions are making the world good" Folks, WE ARE GROWING UP! ... :-) -- Tetsuya. ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Private mail lists [was: Inappropriate use of announce@]
Steven Noels wrote: > Santiago Gala wrote: >>> Just tell them. I think they are all PMC Chairs are subscribed to >>> board, so it should be easy to tell them there to > > Sideway comment from my little peanut gallery: this is (only) the second > time I overheard that PMC chairs can subscribe to board@ - in three > years of (increasingly intensive) reading of non-project-specific ASF > mail lists. Whether this is a 'can', a 'should', or a 'you are required > to' is one of these hidden nuggets of information I would like to see > novice chairs to be informed of in some explicit way. it's actually wider than that; implicit in the outcome of the recent discussion, and as a matter of apparently inadequately stated policy, any asf member may subscribe to the board@ list. in fact, all are encouraged to do so, that they can keep themselves informed. something that also came out of the recent discussion is that private (not even members) lists are permitted, though discouraged, as long as no asf-affecting decisions are made on them. all such decisions need to be made in the light where members can see them. -- #kenP-)} Ken Coar, Sanagendamgagwedweinini http://Golux.Com/coar/ Author, developer, opinionist http://Apache-Server.Com/ "Millennium hand and shrimp!" - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Private mail lists [was: Inappropriate use of announce@]
Santiago Gala wrote: When I said: Just tell them. I think they are all PMC Chairs are subscribed to board, so it should be easy to tell them there to Sideway comment from my little peanut gallery: this is (only) the second time I overheard that PMC chairs can subscribe to board@ - in three years of (increasingly intensive) reading of non-project-specific ASF mail lists. Whether this is a 'can', a 'should', or a 'you are required to' is one of these hidden nuggets of information I would like to see novice chairs to be informed of in some explicit way. About the rest of your mail: I totally agree that private lists can shield valuable, not-so-private information (especially about decision making processes) away from the people for which this information is part of their community experience. Since Cocoon has been moving into a TLP, and has its own PMC list, we have seen some traffic on that list, at times even too much traffic. The nice thing is that, most of the times, one of the private list members jumps up and says "I'm gonna move this to dev or users". Still, due to the fact we @ Cocoon concluded all committers (should) care about the Cocoon community and the legal status of its codebase, so we have a policy where all committers can join the PMC list, and now our PMC list sometimes is just a hanging-out place for committers only. And yes, even though it _might_ produce unwanted side-effects (non-committer developers feeling shut out), it appears as if the subcribers of the PMC list actually like this hanging-out place to exist. We sometimes happen to discuss the proposal of new committers on the PMC list (but not often), to give an example, or whether we are going to send a mail to someone who is on the verge of infringing Cocoon's brand. Fortunately however, no technical nor strategic vision stuff has been emerging from the PMC list so far - all discussions about Cocoon's design and future are routinely done on the dev list. Apart from security stuff (for obvious reasons) and brand conflict issues (where public discussion might affect third parties negatively), I see the Cocoon PMC list (as it is ATM) as some way to channel friendly inter-person chat into a group thing, similar to the difference between IM and IRC - a way to have more people sharing the fun. One might debate that this fun should spread into the open lists as well, but apparently people are aware of their audience when speaking up, and sometimes prefer a cozy little list of 40 subscribers, rather than a massive forum of 500 dev-list participants. Stage freight, I assume. Personally, I think a private list should exerce some kind of self-control to keep its existence worthwhile. It's pretty hard to ban all kinds of direct inter-person communication from a community (nor is this what you are aiming at, of course), but a closed list might move some of the inter-person banter into a channel where more people can make sense of it. Just some thoughts... Cheers, Santiago! -- Steven Noelshttp://outerthought.org/ Outerthought - Open Source Java & XMLAn Orixo Member Read my weblog athttp://blogs.cocoondev.org/stevenn/ stevenn at outerthought.orgstevenn at apache.org - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Private mail lists [was: Inappropriate use of announce@]
El miércoles, 22 octu, 2003, a las 06:18 Europe/Madrid, Phil Steitz escribió: Maybe I am way off base here, but I see the whole community as responsible. The Board and PMCs (relatively stable "authorities") have to exist for legal reasons and to make program-level decisions (including how charters are defined and how community decision-making works); but the responsibility for day to day decisions (such as how to distribute the newsletter) belongs with the community -- especially those who are stepping up to do the work. I know that it may be naive to assume that the "community" can effectively decide everything and that the discussion/voting process will always lead to consensus. I have seen a few situations where this has failed; but I don't see pushing decisions off to "responsible parties" or "ultimate authoriteies" as any better than letting individuals *take* responsibility and defend their ideas and actions among the community. Some days ago (I'm swamped with work), there was a discussion in [EMAIL PROTECTED] about how private are private mailing lists in Apache. I asked about subscription to some pmc mailing lists (private), remembering I had read something Stefano Mazzochi published back in June [1] in his excellent introduction to Apache Membership and its meaning. There you could read: all members have access to the entire history of the foundation, including legal and financial stuff. They can subscribe to any mailing list, including all PMC lists, the licensing committee, and even the board mail list. The discussion settled down slowly, the fact got confirmed. Ken Coar remembered us: however, this does raise an interesting point -- namely, that the non-member subscribers to some lists (like the non-asf-member pmc members) may not be aware that any asf member can read the archives. The members who read those lists archives are, of course, bound by the same privacy requirements as the members of the list themselves. This mail serves to a couple purposes. One is to remember non Apache members in pmc lists that ASF members can see what they post there. When I said: Just tell them. I think they are all PMC Chairs are subscribed to board, so it should be easy to tell them there to and offered a sample mail, Greg Stein replied: I think your sample is missing some context about why this has come up. If some non-Member PMC-member read this, they would wonder what the heck is going on and why they should (or should not) be concerned. ... Just copy it and send it, or give me the ok ,and I'll do it myself. Who should "give [you] the ok" ?? You're a Member. You should already know that this is a good thing to send out, and can take the lead on doing so. What was going on? This is actually the main objective of this email, and why I think it is interesting in the context of Phil's post. I was looking for public information on X(it does not actually matter). Nothing, or barely something could be found about some decision process in public lists. Actually I could find some information in some pmc lists. And what looked interesting is not what I found there, but the fact that it was not public. Possibly because all people involved in the discussion saw it in three or four lists, they took it as public info in their mind. Actually it was not. What I have found reading a sample of pmc posts of several pmcs is that 80% to 90% of the posts there should/could be public, and that our decision processes would be simpler and less confusion would arise if at least summaries of the results of the processes are posted publicly. Unfortunately, not at the information handled there can be public. But I think the volume of a lot of those pmc lists is beginning to be big enough so that people forget to tell those outside of the pmc about decisions. A place where this is happening is jakarta. More and more of the things that used to come in jakarta-general are now discussed in the pmc list. This is, no doubt, because the PMC has increased a lot in size, but the fact leaves the committers outside of the PMC, which are still most of them, and the community at large, completely outside of the loop. Another troublesome and interesting case is incubation processes. There are messages going back and forth between the incubator and the relevant pmc to take the project, and quite often the final acceptance decision is not documented anywhere, or barely so. And the process looks obscure from the outside, even when, reading the relevant (private) messages makes the process obvious and non-controversial. Should most of those processes be held in public? I think public decision processes is crucial to Apache community culture, and switching to committee decision would in the long term damage the community. Regards Santiago [1] http://nagoya.apache.org/eyebrowse/ [EMAIL PROTECTED]&msgId=744290 -
Re: Inappropriate use of announce@
El martes, 21 octu, 2003, a las 07:03 Europe/Madrid, Craig R. McClanahan escribió: One of the hardest things for many newcomers to Apache (or other open source cultures that operate similarly) is the brusque-sounding tone of many comments. It's not personal -- it's based on a (shared) goal to improve things, not necessarily (or even usually) intended to shut things down. There are more than a few times when I've come close to saying "to heck with this place" due to criticisms of my actions that I took too personally; but not doing so was one of the best things I ever avoided doing. A big +1. I think this is a definite part of Apache's empowerment and culture acquisition processes. (both in the harsh criticism trend, by one or the other, every one of us is in the role at times, and in the sense that we learn that we can survive to it and fight against it and be actually supported by other people in the community and succeed and make the world change slightly ;-) Regards - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Inappropriate use of announce@
Phil Steitz wrote: Nicola Ken Barozzi wrote: Phil Steitz wrote: Craig R. McClanahan wrote: ... I don't think that effective decision-making in a large organization *requires* bureacracy. You're right. It requires responsibility. It's possible that an entity is responsible of something without having bureacracy in place. In Apache it's mainly meritocratic communities that decide through the Apache decision-making process (not necessarily voting). Here it seems that it's not clear who is ultimately responsible for this, or if there is lack of oversight, but I might be wrong. I don't quite understand. Isn't the ASF Board ultimately responsible? Ultimately yes. But there's delegation. I would view that responsibility, however, as procedural/legal in the day-to-day decision-making process (i.e., making sure that charters, legal oblitions, etc. are adhered to). Yes, delegated responsibility has to make it come in line with the day-to-day decision-making process. Maybe I am way off base here, but I see the whole community as responsible. The Board and PMCs (relatively stable "authorities") have to exist for legal reasons and to make program-level decisions (including how charters are defined and how community decision-making works); but the responsibility for day to day decisions (such as how to distribute the newsletter) belongs with the community -- especially those who are stepping up to do the work. > I know that it may be naive to assume that the "community" can effectively decide everything One thing is to decide, and one is to be held responsible for it. They are not the same thing. In an organization, there are different levels of responsablity, because of delegation. and that the discussion/voting process will always lead to consensus. Voting does not need to have consensus to be effective. I have seen a few situations where this has failed; but I don't see pushing decisions off to "responsible parties" or "ultimate authoriteies" as any better than letting individuals *take* responsibility and defend their ideas and actions among the community. It is, and the two things are not in contrast. Good delegation mmeans that decisions have to be taken by the lowest entity that can take them. In this case the community. But when this fails, someone has to pull the reigns and make a decision arise. In this case the PMC chair has to make sure that the action items are voted by the community and a decision is taken by them. -- Nicola Ken Barozzi [EMAIL PROTECTED] - verba volant, scripta manent - (discussions get forgotten, just code remains) - - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Inappropriate use of announce@
On Wednesday, Oct 22, 2003, at 01:23 Europe/Rome, Tetsuya Kitahata wrote: "Condemn the offense but not the offender." ( Tsumi wo nikun de, hito wo nikuma zu ) I'll add this to my list of design patterns for community management. Without this principle, e-mail communication might soon end up with the meaningless controversies, and full of frastrations ... We are cleverer than yesterday :-) ... I think so. Yes. Thank you, You are welcome. I got a good feeling out of this: we are all different and our text based asynchronous communication media might just suck us dry after a while... but human signal *does* get thru. And this, more than any newsletter or infrastructure, is what, IMO, makes us (the ASF) a different kind of community. A place where you are ready to step the frustration aside to learn and, as you say, be "cleverer than yesterday". Tetsuya. P.S. Yes, I think I should "take a rest" for a while. I will unsubscribe all the -dev lists which I am now participating, and travel (Not for Yoga in Mt. Fuji :-) in the next month.. I want to go to Okinawa and Kyoto) I think it's a very good idea. Pull the plug for a while, if you can, get back to the simple things. You'll find things more balanced in your mind after that. Ciao. -- Stefano. - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Inappropriate use of announce@
Nicola Ken Barozzi wrote: Phil Steitz wrote: Craig R. McClanahan wrote: ... I don't think that effective decision-making in a large organization *requires* bureacracy. You're right. It requires responsibility. It's possible that an entity is responsible of something without having bureacracy in place. In Apache it's mainly meritocratic communities that decide through the Apache decision-making process (not necessarily voting). Here it seems that it's not clear who is ultimately responsible for this, or if there is lack of oversight, but I might be wrong. I don't quite understand. Isn't the ASF Board ultimately responsible? I would view that responsibility, however, as procedural/legal in the day-to-day decision-making process (i.e., making sure that charters, legal oblitions, etc. are adhered to). Maybe I am way off base here, but I see the whole community as responsible. The Board and PMCs (relatively stable "authorities") have to exist for legal reasons and to make program-level decisions (including how charters are defined and how community decision-making works); but the responsibility for day to day decisions (such as how to distribute the newsletter) belongs with the community -- especially those who are stepping up to do the work. I know that it may be naive to assume that the "community" can effectively decide everything and that the discussion/voting process will always lead to consensus. I have seen a few situations where this has failed; but I don't see pushing decisions off to "responsible parties" or "ultimate authoriteies" as any better than letting individuals *take* responsibility and defend their ideas and actions among the community. Phil - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Inappropriate use of announce@
I am not sure whether this proverb (?) can express my feelings and one of my principles, however, I am willing to put it here: "Condemn the offense but not the offender." ( Tsumi wo nikun de, hito wo nikuma zu ) -- This principle might be really adaptable to Open Source Software Communities, I suspect. By the way, -- On Tue, 21 Oct 2003 11:58:35 +0200 Stefano Mazzocchi <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > I don't want to drag this along forever, but I feel I need to be > precise because I don't want email communication to make it drier > than it is. Likewise :-) > I understand and respect your feelings and positions, but I also would > like you to know that I was not sad, nor angry, just disappointed by > what happened over at [EMAIL PROTECTED] Yes, I hope such a kind of things should *never* happen in this (apatchy) community in the future. Smell of conspiracy :) I will not be able to that (newsletter editor) wonderful task to the others if there will be any opinions occured at infrastrucure@ *whenever* someone publish apache newsletter (maybe this should be renamed.. trauma) > > Yes, I knew that you did really take care of the > > mood of "community" and i suspect that you apologized > > because of it. However, it made me sad at the same time. > You shouldn't be. Stefano, anyone can not stop their the emotional reactions. Remember, that there are some people who think it really guilty to make the others incriminated (without criminal charge) by their actions. > As you see, there are many sides all the time and it's really hard to > find a balance. Agreed. > >> Calling the ASF beaurocratic shows only how low your ability to > >> understand and adapt to a much more complex system is. > > No, I did not declare. I am now talking about the > > *beaurocracy* with the people in japanese government. > > Most of my juniors (Kouhai) / seniors (Sempai) are > > government officials. > > That's it. > Oh, then if I misinterpreted your comments. Sorry for that. Okeydokey. Japanized bearocratic system is (IMO) very interesting theme for those who want to make a study of "bureaucratism", "organization", etc., I am sure. Each components (government officials) are very genious and elite. Really genious. However, they are inclined to be "rationalism" and "careerism". In Economics term (or maybe the same goes for the conceptualized Supply Chain Management), it can be explained by these: "Constrained Optimization"/"Partial Optimization" -- Again, "Condemn the offense but not the offender." ( Tsumi wo nikun de, hito wo nikuma zu ) Without this principle, e-mail communication might soon end up with the meaningless controversies, and full of frastrations ... We are cleverer than yesterday :-) ... Thank you, Tetsuya. P.S. Yes, I think I should "take a rest" for a while. I will unsubscribe all the -dev lists which I am now participating, and travel (Not for Yoga in Mt. Fuji :-) in the next month.. I want to go to Okinawa and Kyoto) - Tetsuya Kitahata -- Terra-International, Inc. E-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.terra-intl.com/ Apache Software Foundation Committer: http://www.apache.org/~tetsuya/ fingerprint: E420 3713 FAB0 C160 4A1E 6FC5 5846 23D6 80AE BDEA - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
RE: Inappropriate use of announce@
> From: Stefano Mazzocchi [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] > Sent: Tuesday, October 21, 2003 11:59 AM > I don't think David and Sander did such a bad thing, they expressed > their opinion, but I disliked the way they did and I wanted to > apologize for the feeling you got out of this. > > You felt sad but they probably felt angry at me because of this, but, > if they did, they didn't express it publicly. For the record: no. No negative feelings whatsoever. Sander - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Inappropriate use of announce@
Phil Steitz wrote: Craig R. McClanahan wrote: ... I don't think that effective decision-making in a large organization *requires* bureacracy. You're right. It requires responsibility. It's possible that an entity is responsible of something without having bureacracy in place. In Apache it's mainly meritocratic communities that decide through the Apache decision-making process (not necessarily voting). Here it seems that it's not clear who is ultimately responsible for this, or if there is lack of oversight, but I might be wrong. -- Nicola Ken Barozzi [EMAIL PROTECTED] - verba volant, scripta manent - (discussions get forgotten, just code remains) - - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Inappropriate use of announce@
Craig R. McClanahan wrote: Your comment about bureacracy is interesting. For the first time in my life, I've spent the last three+ years working for a big company (Sun), after working for organizations with < 500 employees previously in my career. Apache's bureaucracy doesn't hold a candle to Sun's :-). Nor, from what I gather, does it compare to most other big organizations either. In fact, the real problems I see for Apache are almost the opposite. It is the *lack* of a final "authority" making decisions is what causes most of the conflict I see. In the case at hand, you ended up reacting to one person's statement. That person did not speak for the Board or the Members; he spoke for himself. I personally doubt if his opinion was, or is, even a majority view of whatever constituency you consider to be "the Apache community." And, the fact that the previous community@apache.org discussions on this topic did not reach any definite conclusion is a symptom of the *lack* of an authoritative Apache bureacracy, rather than evidence that one exists. I don't think that effective decision-making in a large organization *requires* bureacracy. A hierarchical bureacracy is certainly one way to establish and maintain authority, but it is not the only way and, in my experience, it tends to be a very bad way when it comes to technical decison-making. The Apache "meritocracy" model has resulted in great software and a great community. What we lose in "final authority" we gain 100x over in individual empowerment and quality, IMHO. The trick is to make sure that none of the really important discussions are "inconclusive" and that enough de facto, extemporaneous "authorities" emerge to lead the efforts that the community takes on. In my limited experience with Apache, I have been very impressed with how well the system actually works. Admittedly, I don't have very much experience with Apache, but I do have a lot of experience with large technologies organizations and I think that it will much better if "they" (the bureacracies) become more like "us" (Apache) than the other way around. Phil - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Inappropriate use of announce@
I know, I shouldn't post this... * Henning Schmiedehausen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > Life is not fair. [..] > If you voluntarily chose to stay in a location where you can't get what ^^^ How did you get that impression? > you need to keep up, you can't expect others to scale down just so that > you can do. No, *you* are not fair. Life has nothing to do with it. If you want to play that game, just do it. But let other people do it their way. Actually, I certainly can expect that other people scale down. I do scale down as well. If you are not willing to, the day will come, that you'll speak but nobody listens to you. By the way, did you know, that there's no real backbone in Paraguay? What do you expect? All the people who want to listen to you, moving to Germany? Who are you, man? Welcome to reality! nd - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Inappropriate use of announce@
I won't. Life is not fair. I have several customers there (Hofheim), so I know about this. Solution: Move. E.g. my last house move and the location of my office were purely based on the number of carriers able to offer me bandwith there. I live in this century, I want to interact with its technology on the leading edge. Then I must be willing to create foundations to make this possible. One thing that the ASF is all about is laying foundations and creating software that people build stuff on. If you voluntarily chose to stay in a location where you can't get what you need to keep up, you can't expect others to scale down just so that you can do. Regards Henning On Mon, 2003-10-20 at 21:02, André Malo wrote: > * Henning Schmiedehausen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > > I liked the idea of a general "announce" list where all this stuff is > > sent and let my mail client sort it out. This is the 21st century. If > > you have bandwidth, disk space or download time concerns, you're either > > not using the right technology or simply cannot keep up with the edge of > > this fast moving technology. > > I'm inviting you to move to our location where no provider seems to be able to > put a big bandwidth connection, say, for a week and sorting out your 6000 > mails per day. Have Fun :-) > > Guess where it is? Just some kilometers from the main German CIX, near > Frankfurt/Main in the center of Germany. > > nd > > - > To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- Dipl.-Inf. (Univ.) Henning P. Schmiedehausen INTERMETA GmbH [EMAIL PROTECTED]+49 9131 50 654 0 http://www.intermeta.de/ Java, perl, Solaris, Linux, xSP Consulting, Web Services freelance consultant -- Jakarta Turbine Development -- hero for hire "Dominate!! Dominate!! Eat your young and aggregate! I have grotty silicon!" -- AOL CD when played backwards (User Friendly - 200-10-15) - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Inappropriate use of announce@
I don't want to drag this along forever, but I feel I need to be
precise because I don't want email communication to make it drier than
it is.
On Tuesday, Oct 21, 2003, at 09:07 Europe/Rome, Tetsuya Kitahata wrote:
On Tue, 21 Oct 2003 08:52:16 +0200
Stefano Mazzocchi <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
When I apologized it was because of the tone of the discussion and
because the discussion took place in the wrong location (when
foundation-wide entities start to deal with merit issues, the entire
foundation looses the ability to increase its diversity, thus to
adapt better to a changing environment)
Stefano, to tell the truth, what made me sad was
the apologies from you at [EMAIL PROTECTED]
You, announce@ moderator, should not have apologized because
you were *not* guilty. What made me angry and sad was
not the TONE of the controversy at [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Rather, what I did (publish the newsletter) let
you apologize to the other people.
I understand and respect your feelings and positions, but I also would
like you to know that I was not sad, nor angry, just disappointed by
what happened over at [EMAIL PROTECTED]
This discussions seems to be touching several human sides and it's
probably getting bigger that is should be, but there are a few things
that were realized:
1) infrastructure@ should deal with infrastructure issues *only*. the
decisions to use announce@ for publishing the newsletter should *NOT*
have been discussed on infrastructure and any decision taken by them
without a reasonable infrastructural concern should be void and
overruled.
2) open source communities tend to be aggressive environments. I don't
know if this is because we have "our hearts on our keyboards" as Ken
poetically phrased ('poetically' intended as a compliment, not as
ironic criticism), if because email is such a poor communication media,
if we use a common language and native speakers tend to forget the
impedence mismatch with non-native speakers, if we haven't seen in
person before, a lot of potential reasons.
NOTE: #2 is, IMHO, the reason why women cannot stay in an open source
environment for long. Women dislike aggressive environments by nature.
3) burn-out happens. I have been burned out twice and in both
situations I left for a while. As long as one year at one point. All
the people that I know and learned from all burned out, some left for
some time, some left entirely.
4) the more the foundation grows, the harder is going to be to change
something. this appears as beaurocracy, but it's not, it's just social
inertia and it's not as bad as it seems because it keeps thing sane.
Yes, I knew that you did really take care of the
mood of "community" and i suspect that you apologized
because of it. However, it made me sad at the same time.
You shouldn't be.
I felt I had to apologize because when I consider myself part of a
community or team (not that I'm consider myself part of
infrastructure@, i'm just a stupid lurker there with no sysadm skills
whatsoever), if one makes a mistake, the entire community makes it.
I don't think David and Sander did such a bad thing, they expressed
their opinion, but I disliked the way they did and I wanted to
apologize for the feeling you got out of this.
You felt sad but they probably felt angry at me because of this, but,
if they did, they didn't express it publicly.
As you see, there are many sides all the time and it's really hard to
find a balance.
It takes respect and a good dose of patience and ability to digest what
you dislike and simply pass by without taking it personally. And,
believe me, this is an art on its own and crosses cultural borders to
reach the limits of wisdom.
...but I'm getting too philosophical, I think, so I stop here and just
respect your choice.
Calling the ASF beaurocratic shows only how low your ability to
understand and adapt to a much more complex system is.
No, I did not declare. I am now talking about the
*beaurocracy* with the people in japanese government.
Most of my juniors (Kouhai) / seniors (Sempai) are
government officials.
That's it.
Oh, then if I misinterpreted your comments. Sorry for that.
--
Stefano.
-
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Re: Inappropriate use of announce@
On Tue, 21 Oct 2003 08:52:16 +0200 Stefano Mazzocchi <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > When I apologized it was because of the tone of the discussion and > because the discussion took place in the wrong location (when > foundation-wide entities start to deal with merit issues, the entire > > foundation looses the ability to increase its diversity, thus to > adapt better to a changing environment) Stefano, to tell the truth, what made me sad was the apologies from you at [EMAIL PROTECTED] You, announce@ moderator, should not have apologized because you were *not* guilty. What made me angry and sad was not the TONE of the controversy at [EMAIL PROTECTED] Rather, what I did (publish the newsletter) let you apologize to the other people. Yes, I knew that you did really take care of the mood of "community" and i suspect that you apologized because of it. However, it made me sad at the same time. > Calling the ASF beaurocratic shows only how low your ability to > understand and adapt to a much more complex system is. No, I did not declare. I am now talking about the *beaurocracy* with the people in japanese government. Most of my juniors (Kouhai) / seniors (Sempai) are government officials. That's it. -- Tetsuya. ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Inappropriate use of announce@
On Tuesday, Oct 21, 2003, at 07:03 Europe/Rome, Craig R. McClanahan wrote: Tetsuya Kitahata wrote: On Mon, 20 Oct 2003 08:02:35 -0400 (Subject: Re: Inappropriate use of announce@) Rodent of Unusual Size <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: tetsuya has a lot of energy, and i think we are seeing the common decay into inertia and conservatism common to groups as they grow and age. imho, we should work against this tendency, and seek to empower people (or at least help them find appropriate ways to use all that energy) rather than stifle them with policies and bureaucracy. Thank you :) The only two ways to avoid bureaucracy are : * Accept the difference, heterogeneous ways of thinking with each other (with RESPECT) * Invite Innovative-Mind guys/ladies constantly Innovative (half of the computer engineers have such a mind) way of thinking can be easily in opposition to that of Conservative. This is explained by the brain (In these cases, right-cerebral brain and left-limbic brain) mechanism. Bureaucracy is highly tied up with left-limbic brain. Also, bureaucracy is one of "social-disease"s, which are curable by no means. Bureaucrats tend to hide their asses, possess the instinct of self-preservation, and highly show the self-defense mechanism when attacked by innovative (non-conservative, liberal) ones. # Self-Defense Mechanism can be perceived by very funny # reactions of the bureaucrats. Very Funny, Indeed. The matter is worse, those who are genuine :) bureaucrats can not assay themselves as they are suffering from the disease of bureaucratism. This (bureaucracy) can be found here, there, everywhere in japan :) Incurable serious disease of the society... As if we are awiting the collapse to death of our social system within a few years. well well, you are just going too far here, IMO. One thing is being rude and non diplomatic. An entirely different thing is to be a part of a serious disease. sad. Even more sad that you can see the similarities, but not the differences. When I apologized it was because of the tone of the discussion and because the discussion took place in the wrong location (when foundation-wide entities start to deal with merit issues, the entire foundation looses the ability to increase its diversity, thus to adapt better to a changing environment) Now, you want the system to adapt to you, but how much are you going to adapt to the system? Calling the ASF beaurocratic shows only how low your ability to understand and adapt to a much more complex system is. This is understandable, but not excusable as a reason to resign. [you can just say "sorry, I'm tired" or "have no time for this" and that would be a perfect reason to resign, but that's another story] Tetsuya, Like many others here, I definitely appreciate your contributions on the Apache Newsletter. It has been a task needing to be done, but nobody previously was willing to put in the energy and enthusiasm you have shown to actually make it happen. But I would like to point out something you *might* not have given enough weight to in your own thinking -- cultural sensitivity is a two way street. One of the hardest things for many newcomers to Apache (or other open source cultures that operate similarly) is the brusque-sounding tone of many comments. It's not personal -- it's based on a (shared) goal to improve things, not necessarily (or even usually) intended to shut things down. There are more than a few times when I've come close to saying "to heck with this place" due to criticisms of my actions that I took too personally; but not doing so was one of the best things I ever avoided doing. Your comment about bureacracy is interesting. For the first time in my life, I've spent the last three+ years working for a big company (Sun), after working for organizations with < 500 employees previously in my career. Apache's bureaucracy doesn't hold a candle to Sun's :-). Nor, from what I gather, does it compare to most other big organizations either. In fact, the real problems I see for Apache are almost the opposite. It is the *lack* of a final "authority" making decisions is what causes most of the conflict I see. True, but for &deity;'s sake, I wouldn't want to change!!! As a wise and effective politician once said "democracy is a terribly poor form of government, but every other one is worse". The meritocratic system we use has its own defects and it's questionable if it can scale more without collapsing on its own weight (due to its inverted top-bottom flow of control), but any other form of government would possibly induce higher efficiency, but lower our ability to adapt and diversify. In the case at hand, you ended up reacting to one person's statement. That person did not speak for the Board or the Members; he spoke for himself. I personally
Re: Inappropriate use of announce@
Tetsuya Kitahata wrote: On Mon, 20 Oct 2003 08:02:35 -0400 (Subject: Re: Inappropriate use of announce@) Rodent of Unusual Size <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: tetsuya has a lot of energy, and i think we are seeing the common decay into inertia and conservatism common to groups as they grow and age. imho, we should work against this tendency, and seek to empower people (or at least help them find appropriate ways to use all that energy) rather than stifle them with policies and bureaucracy. Thank you :) The only two ways to avoid bureaucracy are : * Accept the difference, heterogeneous ways of thinking with each other (with RESPECT) * Invite Innovative-Mind guys/ladies constantly Innovative (half of the computer engineers have such a mind) way of thinking can be easily in opposition to that of Conservative. This is explained by the brain (In these cases, right-cerebral brain and left-limbic brain) mechanism. Bureaucracy is highly tied up with left-limbic brain. Also, bureaucracy is one of "social-disease"s, which are curable by no means. Bureaucrats tend to hide their asses, possess the instinct of self-preservation, and highly show the self-defense mechanism when attacked by innovative (non-conservative, liberal) ones. # Self-Defense Mechanism can be perceived by very funny # reactions of the bureaucrats. Very Funny, Indeed. The matter is worse, those who are genuine :) bureaucrats can not assay themselves as they are suffering from the disease of bureaucratism. This (bureaucracy) can be found here, there, everywhere in japan :) Incurable serious disease of the society... As if we are awiting the collapse to death of our social system within a few years. sad. Tetsuya, Like many others here, I definitely appreciate your contributions on the Apache Newsletter. It has been a task needing to be done, but nobody previously was willing to put in the energy and enthusiasm you have shown to actually make it happen. But I would like to point out something you *might* not have given enough weight to in your own thinking -- cultural sensitivity is a two way street. One of the hardest things for many newcomers to Apache (or other open source cultures that operate similarly) is the brusque-sounding tone of many comments. It's not personal -- it's based on a (shared) goal to improve things, not necessarily (or even usually) intended to shut things down. There are more than a few times when I've come close to saying "to heck with this place" due to criticisms of my actions that I took too personally; but not doing so was one of the best things I ever avoided doing. Your comment about bureacracy is interesting. For the first time in my life, I've spent the last three+ years working for a big company (Sun), after working for organizations with < 500 employees previously in my career. Apache's bureaucracy doesn't hold a candle to Sun's :-). Nor, from what I gather, does it compare to most other big organizations either. In fact, the real problems I see for Apache are almost the opposite. It is the *lack* of a final "authority" making decisions is what causes most of the conflict I see. In the case at hand, you ended up reacting to one person's statement. That person did not speak for the Board or the Members; he spoke for himself. I personally doubt if his opinion was, or is, even a majority view of whatever constituency you consider to be "the Apache community." And, the fact that the previous community@apache.org discussions on this topic did not reach any definite conclusion is a symptom of the *lack* of an authoritative Apache bureacracy, rather than evidence that one exists. But, that's the way it is, and it's not going to change. Apache is not like your typical American cultural institution, any more than it's like your typical Japanese institution. We all need to learn how to interact with this strange beast, and make it better all the while. Your expecting it to behave in a way that is comfortable to the Japanese culture would be just as incorrect (and unlikely) as me expecting it to behave in the American culture that I'm operating in. It's not going to happen. Our choice is to deal with it, or not participate. I, for one, voted for "deal with it." My preference would be that you did so also, but that's up to you. -- Tetsuya. ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) Craig McClanahan - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Inappropriate use of announce@
On Mon, 20 Oct 2003 08:02:35 -0400 (Subject: Re: Inappropriate use of announce@) Rodent of Unusual Size <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > tetsuya has a lot of energy, and i think we are seeing the common > decay into inertia and conservatism common to groups as they grow > and age. imho, we should work against this tendency, and seek to > empower people (or at least help them find appropriate ways to > use all that energy) rather than stifle them with policies and > bureaucracy. Thank you :) The only two ways to avoid bureaucracy are : * Accept the difference, heterogeneous ways of thinking with each other (with RESPECT) * Invite Innovative-Mind guys/ladies constantly Innovative (half of the computer engineers have such a mind) way of thinking can be easily in opposition to that of Conservative. This is explained by the brain (In these cases, right-cerebral brain and left-limbic brain) mechanism. Bureaucracy is highly tied up with left-limbic brain. Also, bureaucracy is one of "social-disease"s, which are curable by no means. Bureaucrats tend to hide their asses, possess the instinct of self-preservation, and highly show the self-defense mechanism when attacked by innovative (non-conservative, liberal) ones. # Self-Defense Mechanism can be perceived by very funny # reactions of the bureaucrats. Very Funny, Indeed. The matter is worse, those who are genuine :) bureaucrats can not assay themselves as they are suffering from the disease of bureaucratism. This (bureaucracy) can be found here, there, everywhere in japan :) Incurable serious disease of the society... As if we are awiting the collapse to death of our social system within a few years. sad. -- Tetsuya. ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) P.S. There's no "inferior"/"superior" issue. Just ones' "preference" of the way of thinking. Conservative guys will be rather needed in well-matured societies, OTOH, Innovative guys will be rather needed in societies under development, indeed. NO "inferior"/"superior" issue. - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Information channels, Re: Inappropriate use of announce@
Henning Schmiedehausen wrote: > > Any by trying to build "an ideal world for yourself", you basically > killed whatever enthusiasm or dedication Tetsuya showed. Because you > offered no support or at least positive feedback but only "we don't like > this format, this way of posting, this content, change it". I'd be > frustrated, too. i think this must be another cultural differences thing. i think the tone was a bit harder than it possibly ought to have been, but i think the 'post a link instead' was meant to be constructive. it was still trying to help get the information to the readers. i think it's also a matter of expectations. when i'm on a mailing list, i don't expect -- nor appreciate -- 4MiB JPEGs being sent to it unless that was very clearly stated on the list charter. admittedly a 43k newletter isn't quite in the same realm, but i think the question comes down to whether subscribers want nothing 'below the fold' (i.e., only one-screen messages) or not. and we can't really ask them. we can maybe infer some of their preferences by seeing the effect on subscriptions and reading complaints -- although i think the latter only go back to the announcement sender for most of our announcement lists. others' expectations are doubtless different. lcd solutions suck, but they're the only way to go if there are *no* expectations set. so, the [unanswerable] question remains: did receiving the newsletter on the announcement list fall within the subscribers' exxpectations? -- #kenP-)} Ken Coar, Sanagendamgagwedweinini http://Golux.Com/coar/ Author, developer, opinionist http://Apache-Server.Com/ "Millennium hand and shrimp!" - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Inappropriate use of announce@
* Henning Schmiedehausen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > I liked the idea of a general "announce" list where all this stuff is > sent and let my mail client sort it out. This is the 21st century. If > you have bandwidth, disk space or download time concerns, you're either > not using the right technology or simply cannot keep up with the edge of > this fast moving technology. I'm inviting you to move to our location where no provider seems to be able to put a big bandwidth connection, say, for a week and sorting out your 6000 mails per day. Have Fun :-) Guess where it is? Just some kilometers from the main German CIX, near Frankfurt/Main in the center of Germany. nd - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Information channels, Re: Inappropriate use of announce@
On 20/10/2003, at 04:44, Rob Oxspring wrote: we know that everybody has his/her own preferences Again I would have thought that most of us are grown up enough to realise that. Therefore I wrote '... we [the ASF community] know ...' :) so why don't we just go with a pull-model instead of pushing the *whole content* onto some list of subscribers? Now just hold on here. How do you get to the assumption that the pull-model is the solution? Can't people's preferences include the push-model too? I didn't claim it's perfect or *the* solution. It's just a way to avoid frustration, nothing more. Simply 'get the stuff or forget it' instead of 'here is the stuff, now eat (or discard) it'. Why not just *announce* the availability of the newsletter? Do we really have to dump it to some list? And, if we have to, why can't this be a dedicated list? And now we get back to common sense. Using a dedicated list for the full contents and a preceding announcement on the announce@ list lets the readers exercise their preference perfectly. Those who don't like 100k emails don't have to take them, and those that like to read offline can do so at their leisure. Note that this approach could equally coexist with the suggested RSS solution, although the RSS proponents should step forward to organise this if they want it. Yes, that's exactly what I intended to say, but I'll will shut up now since it looks like this doesn't make much sense for anyone... Cheers, Erik - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Information channels, Re: Inappropriate use of announce@
On 20/10/2003, at 04:43, Henning Schmiedehausen wrote: Well, the threads on this and other similar topics showed that the majority of our community has a completely different point of view when it comes to information reception. Compared to whom? To you, me or Tetsuyo? EVERYBODY HAS HIS/HER OWN PREFERENCE. PERIOD. Personally, I agree with "the one who does the work get the call for the format". Yep, as long as the intended audience isn't choking. IMHO the subscribers should be taken into account. In case of the announce(at)apache.org list we're speaking of at least 8304 subscribers (!). Considering the recent discussions, I'm really wondering how many of them feel annoyed, disturbed or overwhelmed. less than a percent for all three of them together is my guess. I have some regional interest groups newsletters that send out more announcements per week than the ASF in a month. Pure speculation... and it isn't *YOU*, it's the 8304 subscribes :) I think what David and others (including me) wanted to suggest is to go the way of least astonishment/frustration: we know that everybody has his/her own preferences so why don't we just go with a pull-model instead of pushing the *whole content* onto some list of subscribers? Why not just *announce* Any by trying to build "an ideal world for yourself", you basically killed whatever enthusiasm or dedication Tetsuya showed. Because you offered no support or at least positive feedback but only "we don't like this format, this way of posting, this content, change it". I'd be frustrated, too. No, I didn't offer support and I didn't provide positive feedback and I didn't ask him politely to please, please fix the XHTML issues with the nice, nice newsletter. Well, I don't know where you got the impression that "I don't like this format, this way of posting, this content, change it". This is insulting, please stop it! ... If you have to wonder about feeding your child (oh, the crocodile-teared argument of the caring firstworlder. Cry me a river), you don't read apache-announce. If you use a 14,4k modem, you don't subscribe to linux-kernel. Unfair? Yes. Not compatible with the "one world, global world" theory? Yes. Reality? Yes. End of story. Okay, I won't reply to this. It's way OT and we won't agree here in years ;) Else, everyone would have to agree on the "lowest common denominator" and we would be back to square one, 7-bit ASCII. 16 MB memory. 640x480x8 bit displays. Sorry, I've outgrown this for some years. So, why don't we publish our webpages in PDF and Flash then? Some people here are choking about too long URLs in emails... but that's another story. H*ll, I get about 6000 mails per day. It's the job of a robot to make sure that I won't get swamped in these but the most interesting / urgent / personal get filed in the right folders. If you try to keep up with 80ies methods (only send me small, non-html, right-marked, stamped and adressed mail), you might want to consider using a fax. Or become a road kill on the information highway. ;-) Hmmm, well, i like this approach. Can we please close-down all apache.org mailing lists and instead have just one big uber-list, perhaps with a HTML-requirement and 10k footers explaining the ASF? Hey, it's pretty easy to filter out the important messages, so why don't you just setup your MUA correctly??? Why ironic? This is reality. Personally, I don't understand the people that have bazillions of mail addresses and read them all the time. I have _one_ mail box, _one_ mail address and a filter which does all the rest. I do channel all the mailing lists I'm subscribed to onto a single address, so there is no need to talk about "irony". I works exactly as you describe. I'd say such a meta-list wouldn't have much more traffic than linux-kernel. Again, you're talking about your own personal preference. (BTW: As a german you should at least write Über, because you know the word roots and have the key for the umlaut. And as a politically correct geman, you should despise the notions of using this (it does stem from Übermensch and its related ideology (which ironically comes from Nietsche ;-) )). Oh, come on... now we're getting really deep into the mis-communication business. If I don't like HTML, I drop the mail. If I'm interested in the content, I either pipe it through a filter or use a html capable client. If I don't want to see 10k signatures, I use a filter. Again, personal preference... but I understand... seems I'm not capable of diggin' through the muddy waters of the net, so perhaps I should resign? Cheers, Erik - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Information channels, Re: Inappropriate use of announce@
On Mon, 20 Oct 2003 17:13:35 +0200 (Subject: Re: Information channels, Re: Inappropriate use of announce@) Nicola Ken Barozzi <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > I recently read that the smaller an issue is, the bigger a discussion it > gets, as everyone has something to say. > > This issue must be pretty trivial then. > > In any case, who decides? What is the PMC or "something" overlooking > these things, that can give a reasonable decision and stop all this > nonsense? There have been some concerns on this, already. (When I requested a karma for "site" module) -- <> A> Well, there is one little problem. Which PMC is going to provide A> the oversight for this one? Since it is an Apache wide newsletter A> it seems that the only real entity that qualifies is the board. B> +1 for board scooping up these 'exceptions'. Our members 'want this'. C> Theoretically we should have an Apache-wide documentation PMC C> (which would include the i18n issues, BTW), but for now our stated C> policy is that any committer who requests site karma is welcome to it. -- However, I found that the "Apache Newsletter" item at the left-side navi of www.apache.org has moved from "Foundation" to "Get Involved" (Also, renamed from "Apache Newsletter" to "Newsletter". Anyone can find out who did this, via the logs of site-cvs@) section, very recently. Theoretically, "announce@" should be used by the Apache Software Foundation (by the members of ASF). Apache Newsletter Issue #1 and #2 were the "exceptions" of it. So, I felt hesitation in describing "Issuer: The Apache Software Foundation" at that newsletter, to tell the truth. (because I am not a member, stakeholder of the ASF) ... A sort of uneasiness ... -- Anyway, I still have such an uneasiness, anxietiy. In such a situation, I thought that it was high time for me to declare the resignation and to pass a baton to someone. In our country, "Resignation of one's post" can be counted as a virtue of modesty (This is what the western people find it hard to understand our country, as a matter of fact) Yes, I knew that I was against the proverb of "A bird does not foul the nest that it is about to leave." , though :-) Thank you, -- Tetsuya. ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Information channels, Re: Inappropriate use of announce@
I recently read that the smaller an issue is, the bigger a discussion it gets, as everyone has something to say. This issue must be pretty trivial then. In any case, who decides? What is the PMC or "something" overlooking these things, that can give a reasonable decision and stop all this nonsense? -- Nicola Ken Barozzi [EMAIL PROTECTED] - verba volant, scripta manent - (discussions get forgotten, just code remains) - - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Information channels, Re: Inappropriate use of announce@
I've been trying to stay out of all this but the logic here just made me bite and chime in. - Original Message - From: "Erik Abele" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: Sent: Monday, October 20, 2003 12:38 PM Subject: Information channels, Re: Inappropriate use of announce@ [snip] > I think what David and others (including me) wanted to suggest is to go > the > way of least astonishment/frustration: Surely nobody disagrees. > we know that everybody has > his/her > own preferences Again I would have thought that most of us are grown up enough to realise that. > so why don't we just go with a pull-model instead of > pushing > the *whole content* onto some list of subscribers? Now just hold on here. How do you get to the assumption that the pull-model is the solution? Can't people's preferences include the push-model too? > Why not just > *announce* > the availability of the newsletter? Do we really have to dump it to some > list? And, if we have to, why can't this be a dedicated list? And now we get back to common sense. Using a dedicated list for the full contents and a preceding announcement on the announce@ list lets the readers exercise their preference perfectly. Those who don't like 100k emails don't have to take them, and those that like to read offline can do so at their leisure. Note that this approach could equally coexist with the suggested RSS solution, although the RSS proponents should step forward to organise this if they want it. [snip] > > > I very much enjoyed the hard work that Tetsuya put into the newsletter > > and I'm very sad to see him step down because of such puny reasons as > > to > > which mailing list this newsletter should be sent. > > I fully agree and given that nobody critizied the newsletter itself, I > can > not understand why Tetsuya resigned. That looks really weird to my > little > brain... > I know from first hand experience that editing the Newsletter (Jakarta Newsletter in my case) is a time consuming process that tends to be silently appreciated. As such, comments perceived (not necessarily intended) to be negative quickly swamp the positive ones and it's very easy to burn out. If people think that the newsletter@ address is the way forward then lets make the list now. If people think that the distribution should be different then they have an ideal opportunity to change it: just step up to edit the next edition. Hopefully Tetsuya will continue to contribute and may come back to edit future issues but I fully understand why he feels ready to step down right now. Anyone who doesn't understand should volunteer to handle an issue or two. Whatever Tetsuya feels, there's no reason for the newsletter to die. Equally we shouldn't rely on the energy of one person to edit every issue. IMHO we should decide now how the next issue will be distributed and towards the end of November call for a volunteer to "release" the letter. If that person wants to continue afterwards then fine, otherwise we just call for another editor in January. Anyway, just my 2p, Rob - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Information channels, Re: Inappropriate use of announce@
On Mon, 2003-10-20 at 13:38, Erik Abele wrote: Hi, > Well, the threads on this and other similar topics showed that the > majority > of our community has a completely different point of view when it comes > to > information reception. Compared to whom? To you, me or Tetsuyo? > > To summarize it, we had a bunch of wide-ranging suggestions on how to > publish the newsletter: emails on various lists with various amounts of > content included, a dedicated list, a website version, fancy XML-based > docs > and even an RSS-aggregated feed. Of course there were strong and > reasonable > arguments for _and_ against each possibility but in the end everybody > has > it's very own preference. Personally, I agree with "the one who does the work get the call for the format". If you need an aggregated RSS feed, feel free to talk with the editor to convert his work into your format. > In case of the announce(at)apache.org list we're speaking of at least > 8304 > subscribers (!). Considering the recent discussions, I'm really > wondering > how many of them feel annoyed, disturbed or overwhelmed. less than a percent for all three of them together is my guess. I have some regional interest groups newsletters that send out more announcements per week than the ASF in a month. > > I think what David and others (including me) wanted to suggest is to go > the > way of least astonishment/frustration: we know that everybody has > his/her > own preferences so why don't we just go with a pull-model instead of > pushing > the *whole content* onto some list of subscribers? Why not just > *announce* Any by trying to build "an ideal world for yourself", you basically killed whatever enthusiasm or dedication Tetsuya showed. Because you offered no support or at least positive feedback but only "we don't like this format, this way of posting, this content, change it". I'd be frustrated, too. [...] > > I liked the idea of a general "announce" list where all this stuff is > > sent and let my mail client sort it out. This is the 21st century. If > > you have bandwidth, disk space or download time concerns, you're either > > not using the right technology or simply cannot keep up with the edge > > of > > this fast moving technology. > > Why do we have to require this sort of working environment? It looks > like > you're not aware of other parts of this world. Just as an exaggerated > example: in the (developing) Asian and African countries, a 386er > equipped > with a 14.4K modem costs a horrible amount of money and the > ISP-/TelCo-fees > are definitely better invested in feeding your child(s)... If you have to wonder about feeding your child (oh, the crocodile-teared argument of the caring firstworlder. Cry me a river), you don't read apache-announce. If you use a 14,4k modem, you don't subscribe to linux-kernel. Unfair? Yes. Not compatible with the "one world, global world" theory? Yes. Reality? Yes. End of story. Else, everyone would have to agree on the "lowest common denominator" and we would be back to square one, 7-bit ASCII. 16 MB memory. 640x480x8 bit displays. Sorry, I've outgrown this for some years. > I fully agree and given that nobody critizied the newsletter itself, I > can > not understand why Tetsuya resigned. That looks really weird to my > little > brain... I can. "Weil der Ton die Musik macht". (Sorry for you non-geman speakers :-) ) > > > H*ll, I get about 6000 mails per day. It's the job of a robot to make > > sure that I won't get swamped in these but the most interesting / > > urgent > > / personal get filed in the right folders. If you try to keep up with > > 80ies methods (only send me small, non-html, right-marked, stamped and > > adressed mail), you might want to consider using a fax. Or become a > > road > > kill on the information highway. ;-) > > > Hmmm, well, i like this approach. Can we please close-down all > apache.org > mailing lists and instead have just one big uber-list, perhaps with a > HTML-requirement and 10k footers explaining the ASF? Hey, it's pretty > easy > to filter out the important messages, so why don't you just setup your > MUA > correctly??? > Why ironic? This is reality. Personally, I don't understand the people that have bazillions of mail addresses and read them all the time. I have _one_ mail box, _one_ mail address and a filter which does all the rest. I do channel all the mailing lists I'm subscribed to onto a single address, so there is no need to talk about "irony". I works exactly as you describe. I'd say such a meta-list wouldn't have much more traffic than linux-kernel. (BTW: As a german you should at least write Über, because you know the word roots and have the key for the umlaut. And as a politically correct geman, you should despise the notions of using this (it does stem from Übermensch and its related ideology (which ironically comes from Nietsche ;-) )). If I don't like HTML, I drop the mail. If I'm interested in the content,
Re: Inappropriate use of announce@
On Mon, 20 Oct 2003, Rodent of Unusual Size wrote: > long ago, when the original httpd announce@apache.org got > repurposed into a general announcement list, did we say > anything about what subscribers could expect? do we say > anything about it now on the page where people learn about > the lists? are we meeting the expectations we set thereby, > if we *do* set any? "news and announcements about the foundation and its projects. Announcements of major software releases, new projects, and other important news are included." What I really wanted originally was to use the archives of this list to create an apache-news webpage that would list all the important events of the foundation. I figured that few people would really want to subscribe, but many people might want to browse the history to see what apache was up to. Of course, as has been mentioned the last time this discussion came up, very few projects ever posted to the list, and I gave up nagging people about it long ago. > tetsuya has a lot of energy, and i think we are seeing the common > decay into inertia and conservatism common to groups as they grow > and age. imho, we should work against this tendency, and seek to > empower people (or at least help them find appropriate ways to > use all that energy) rather than stifle them with policies and > bureaucracy. Nicely said. A community is (at least) a two way street. Joshua. - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Inappropriate use of announce@
Sander Striker wrote: > > Also consider the people that are subscribed to the announce list, all 8304 > of them. I'm sure they didn't sign up to an announcement list to receive > 43k emails. If they had wanted that, they would have subscribed to a > newsletter... ;). after any announcement to any apache mailing list, there is always an immediate flurry of unsubscriptions. it would be interesting to see if the volume is any greater or less after large ones like the newsletter. long ago, when the original httpd announce@apache.org got repurposed into a general announcement list, did we say anything about what subscribers could expect? do we say anything about it now on the page where people learn about the lists? are we meeting the expectations we set thereby, if we *do* set any? i agree in that i think people have been coming down a little hard on tetsuya about this. i disagree with and am disappointed in his position that he can't or won't work with others to find a happy medium, that he'll do this his (culture's) way or not at all. however, maybe i'm misinterpreting what he said (the cultural thing, after all ;-); in any event, it's his prerogative and choice. i appreciate the energy and effort he put into it, even if i *did* get annoyed at getting essentially the same messages (about providing content for the newsletter) about a dozen times from all the apache lists i'm on. :-) tetsuya has a lot of energy, and i think we are seeing the common decay into inertia and conservatism common to groups as they grow and age. imho, we should work against this tendency, and seek to empower people (or at least help them find appropriate ways to use all that energy) rather than stifle them with policies and bureaucracy. -- #kenP-)} Ken Coar, Sanagendamgagwedweinini http://Golux.Com/coar/ Author, developer, opinionist http://Apache-Server.Com/ "Millennium hand and shrimp!" - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Information channels, Re: Inappropriate use of announce@
As the discussion now shows *nobody* is in favour of Tetsuyas resignation and *everybody* appreciate[sd] his efforts but it also seems that there exist some basic misunderstandings, at least I've lost the point somewhere last night... On 20/10/2003, at 10:44, Henning Schmiedehausen wrote: And then we end up with 200 mailinglists, each getting a single message per month/week/year. Vey efficient. Verrry german. I love it! Everything in its neat little box. Stamped, filed, put away. [I don't want to get pulled into this discussion another time, this just sounds pretty ignorant to me, but please read on...] Well, the threads on this and other similar topics showed that the majority of our community has a completely different point of view when it comes to information reception. To summarize it, we had a bunch of wide-ranging suggestions on how to publish the newsletter: emails on various lists with various amounts of content included, a dedicated list, a website version, fancy XML-based docs and even an RSS-aggregated feed. Of course there were strong and reasonable arguments for _and_ against each possibility but in the end everybody has it's very own preference. Now the point is why we don't want to see this difference and act accordingly? The last publication showed that there are people out there, which have issues with the current delivery method (maybe they're of a technical nature or just organizational, however), so why are they being ignored and not respected? In case of the announce(at)apache.org list we're speaking of at least 8304 subscribers (!). Considering the recent discussions, I'm really wondering how many of them feel annoyed, disturbed or overwhelmed. I think what David and others (including me) wanted to suggest is to go the way of least astonishment/frustration: we know that everybody has his/her own preferences so why don't we just go with a pull-model instead of pushing the *whole content* onto some list of subscribers? Why not just *announce* the availability of the newsletter? Do we really have to dump it to some list? And, if we have to, why can't this be a dedicated list? I agree that the tone of Davids original mail might have not been the most diplomatic one but given that this issue was discussed at length already, I can understand the reaction. Nobody 'judged the merits of a particular volunteer just because he didn't like the way it's done' (according to Stefano on infrastructure@). There were alternative suggestions on how to improve the publication, everybody agreed, and in the end, they were simply ignored. I liked the idea of a general "announce" list where all this stuff is sent and let my mail client sort it out. This is the 21st century. If you have bandwidth, disk space or download time concerns, you're either not using the right technology or simply cannot keep up with the edge of this fast moving technology. Why do we have to require this sort of working environment? It looks like you're not aware of other parts of this world. Just as an exaggerated example: in the (developing) Asian and African countries, a 386er equipped with a 14.4K modem costs a horrible amount of money and the ISP-/TelCo-fees are definitely better invested in feeding your child(s)... I very much enjoyed the hard work that Tetsuya put into the newsletter and I'm very sad to see him step down because of such puny reasons as to which mailing list this newsletter should be sent. I fully agree and given that nobody critizied the newsletter itself, I can not understand why Tetsuya resigned. That looks really weird to my little brain... H*ll, I get about 6000 mails per day. It's the job of a robot to make sure that I won't get swamped in these but the most interesting / urgent / personal get filed in the right folders. If you try to keep up with 80ies methods (only send me small, non-html, right-marked, stamped and adressed mail), you might want to consider using a fax. Or become a road kill on the information highway. ;-) Hmmm, well, i like this approach. Can we please close-down all apache.org mailing lists and instead have just one big uber-list, perhaps with a HTML-requirement and 10k footers explaining the ASF? Hey, it's pretty easy to filter out the important messages, so why don't you just setup your MUA correctly??? ...just another personal preference... ;-) Cheers, Erik - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Inappropriate use of announce@
On Mon, 20 Oct 2003 11:37:23 +0200 (Subject: RE: Inappropriate use of announce@) "Sander Striker" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > Also consider the people that are subscribed to the announce list, > all 8304 of them. 8304 Great! I have heard from Noel that the number of subscribers to announce@ was about 7400, as of Jul 17th, 2003. We got extra 900 subscribers in these 3 months!! I am glad. My duty on the "advert of the existence of announce@ list" campaign has ended up already. Relieved. -- Tetsuya. ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) P.S. As of jul 17th, 759 [EMAIL PROTECTED] 5139 [EMAIL PROTECTED] 152 community@ - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Inappropriate use of announce@
On Sun, 19 Oct 2003, Joshua Slive wrote: > I do believe that there have been some people getting a little too picky > about "policies". In general in the Apache world, and especially in the > case of the documentation, he who does the work should get to make the > decisions. Suggesting that the newsletter be distributed in a particular > format is perfectly acceptable. Insisting on it goes too far, unless > there is a serious infrastructure concern. +1. --Cliff - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Inappropriate use of announce@
According to Stefano Mazzocchi: > I *DO* agree that it is, IMO, better to use Noel's suggestion and send > a short reminder of the newsletter with a link to the web site. I agree > with Justin as well, nobody likes to read long emails, expecially when > you didn't ask for them. Well, I tend to agree, but for a newsletter it is IMHO not uncommon to post the actual content. I'm receiving various newsletters and all do send the actual newletter and not just a link to it. Personally I prefer having the actual content (of a newsletter or whatever it is) in my mailbox ... I'm traveling every now and then, and a link to an external resource is not very helpful if you are sitting on plane going through your backlog of email ... I've been the one who approved the posting to announce list, because I thought we decided that the content is appropriate for the list (IMHO there is less point in creating [EMAIL PROTECTED] for just a single posting every two month) and most importantly, because this issue of the newsletter contained some info on ApacheCon and that only 2-3 days are left for early-bird registrations. > Tetsuia, I apologize. I found this rude and unrespectful. I strongly > hope that you reconsider your decision, but, if not, you have my full > respect and understanding. I couldn't agree more. ciao... -- Lars Eilebrecht - He who knows, does not speak. [EMAIL PROTECTED] - He who speaks, does not know. (Lao Tsu) - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Inappropriate use of announce@
Henning Schmiedehausen wrote: I very much enjoyed the hard work that Tetsuya put into the newsletter and I'm very sad to see him step down because of such puny reasons as to which mailing list this newsletter should be sent. Me too on both points. Steve. -- Stephen J. McConnell mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Inappropriate use of announce@
And then we end up with 200 mailinglists, each getting a single message per month/week/year. Vey efficient. Verrry german. I love it! Everything in its neat little box. Stamped, filed, put away. I liked the idea of a general "announce" list where all this stuff is sent and let my mail client sort it out. This is the 21st century. If you have bandwidth, disk space or download time concerns, you're either not using the right technology or simply cannot keep up with the edge of this fast moving technology. I very much enjoyed the hard work that Tetsuya put into the newsletter and I'm very sad to see him step down because of such puny reasons as to which mailing list this newsletter should be sent. H*ll, I get about 6000 mails per day. It's the job of a robot to make sure that I won't get swamped in these but the most interesting / urgent / personal get filed in the right folders. If you try to keep up with 80ies methods (only send me small, non-html, right-marked, stamped and adressed mail), you might want to consider using a fax. Or become a road kill on the information highway. ;-) Regards Henning On Mon, 2003-10-20 at 01:51, Erik Abele wrote: > On 20/10/2003, at 01:40, Noel J. Bergman wrote: > > >> The original intention of the newsletter was "Newsletter > >> will be one of the *glue* of the communities in the ASF > >> umbrella > > > >> ... It seems that the newsletter itself is going to the contrary. > > > > The newsletter is doing that job. All that was asked is that you post > > an > > announcement to announce@, not the entire contents. Why is that a > > problem? > > What problem do you have with a notice (an announcement)? An > > announcement > > of a thing is not the thing. > > Yes, and to simplify, I think the whole point with this is that when > you want to post the > complete newsletter to some list, we should create a new, dedicated one > for it. > > Announce@ is for announcements, community@ for community musings, and > *perhaps* > newsletter@ is for the newsletter. That's it, simple, eh? > > Cheers, > Erik > > [ back in my cave and btw ;-) ] > > > --- Noel > > > > > - > To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- Dipl.-Inf. (Univ.) Henning P. Schmiedehausen INTERMETA GmbH [EMAIL PROTECTED]+49 9131 50 654 0 http://www.intermeta.de/ Java, perl, Solaris, Linux, xSP Consulting, Web Services freelance consultant -- Jakarta Turbine Development -- hero for hire "Dominate!! Dominate!! Eat your young and aggregate! I have grotty silicon!" -- AOL CD when played backwards (User Friendly - 200-10-15) - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Inappropriate use of announce@
Tetsuya, Noel J. Bergman wrote: You did a great job, as usual, on the newsletter, and you should continue to do so, IMO. +1, your contribution is very much appreciated. -John K - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Inappropriate use of announce@
Joshua Slive wrote: On Mon, 20 Oct 2003, Tetsuya Kitahata wrote: Nope. I have to resign. Well, thanks for your contribution Tetsuya. I think it is a worthwhile project, and I hope you reconsider or someone picks it up. I do believe that there have been some people getting a little too picky about "policies". In general in the Apache world, and especially in the case of the documentation, he who does the work should get to make the decisions. Suggesting that the newsletter be distributed in a particular format is perfectly acceptable. Insisting on it goes too far, unless there is a serious infrastructure concern. (Actually, I do agree that it would be better to simply send the link by email. But if Tetsuya thinks it is important to send the whole thing, I see no problem in letting him make that decision.) +1 Joshua. - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- Stephen J. McConnell mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Inappropriate use of announce@
At 12:41 PM 20/10/2003, you wrote: On Mon, 20 Oct 2003, Tetsuya Kitahata wrote: > Nope. I have to resign. Well, thanks for your contribution Tetsuya. I think it is a worthwhile project, and I hope you reconsider or someone picks it up. I do believe that there have been some people getting a little too picky about "policies". In general in the Apache world, and especially in the case of the documentation, he who does the work should get to make the decisions. Suggesting that the newsletter be distributed in a particular format is perfectly acceptable. Insisting on it goes too far, unless there is a serious infrastructure concern. (Actually, I do agree that it would be better to simply send the link by email. But if Tetsuya thinks it is important to send the whole thing, I see no problem in letting him make that decision.) Joshua. Exactly. Well said.
Re: Inappropriate use of announce@
On Mon, 20 Oct 2003, Tetsuya Kitahata wrote: > Nope. I have to resign. Well, thanks for your contribution Tetsuya. I think it is a worthwhile project, and I hope you reconsider or someone picks it up. I do believe that there have been some people getting a little too picky about "policies". In general in the Apache world, and especially in the case of the documentation, he who does the work should get to make the decisions. Suggesting that the newsletter be distributed in a particular format is perfectly acceptable. Insisting on it goes too far, unless there is a serious infrastructure concern. (Actually, I do agree that it would be better to simply send the link by email. But if Tetsuya thinks it is important to send the whole thing, I see no problem in letting him make that decision.) Joshua. - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Inappropriate use of announce@
> From: Erik Abele <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > Announce@ is for announcements, community@ for community musings, and > *perhaps* > newsletter@ is for the newsletter. That's it, simple, eh? +1. (Can still put a short note in announce@) Cheers, Berin This message was sent through MyMail http://www.mymail.com.au - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Inappropriate use of announce@
Hi Tetsuya! Many people is very interested and apreciate your effort in creating a kind of "glue" for all the projects under the Apache umbrella. Here include me too, for sure! Tetsuya Kitahata dijo: > > Nope. I have to resign. The difference of the e-mail culture. Hmm I can't believe that. :( I think we are here to learn too. :-D > We, Japanese, do not complain about the volume of the > mails (especially when they are useful and informative) > and I am accustomed to that culture. I think many of us have the same culture as you (look that I am not Japanese!), and we really appreciate what you did. But as was pointed above we are here to learn too. I am glad of this part as a member of the community. So, I think here is an important lesson to learn here: What about to send inside the newsletter mail just the most important headlines of the newsletter in a short mail with the link to the full text, that way everybody will read what he really think is important for him. We cannot asumme everybody is interested in every topic of the newsletter. This is normal, not everybody is involved in every project in the ASF. Think a little how we read a newspaper: We don't like to read every word of the newspaper, for this reasons the newspaper is separated in sections. We read the name of a section, if we are interested in the section, then we read the headlines in the section and if we are really interested in the news at all, then we read every word of the news. Is this correct? So this kind of "order" is what (I think) was requested in the last mail. It was not to attack or destroy your good effort. It just will help to "save" time by allowing people to choose the right news to be read. Also it will save AS bandwith! :) > Someone like me (who have such a mind) should not have become > the editor of that newsletter. There could be often friction > and it will cause the "balkanization" of the e-mail culture. Please don't be negative. As I pointed above we really apreciate your effort and I think is very important for the ASF at all. I will be glad if you really go back to work, do another try and improve the overall newletter. I am sure this will be a success. Please do a try. :-D Note, there was nothing like this newsletter before in the ASF. So, as usual, start a new project is the most dificult and you are doing that right now. So let people comment about how you are doing and receive the critict in a constructive way. OK? :-D > The original intention of the newsletter was > "Newsletter will be one of the *glue* of the communities in the ASF > umbrella, beyond the artificial boundaries of technical languages etc. > Hope this can gradually lead the good course of the ASF, avoiding the > balkanization of each projects and keep the hand tightly with various > projects.": cooperative collaboration space for all the contributors. Yep. This is very important and the idea is great, please continue the work! > > ... It seems that the newsletter itself is going to the contrary. Never mind this is not true! We really apreciate your work. But some critics are good to, please take them in the good sense. I think we are here to learn too. This is not bad at all. We need to enjoy it. ;-) > > Very sad. > > I am willing to resign. I can not believe you are giving up too soon. :( I though you are a good player. Good players stay to the end of the game and this game is just beginning! So stay in your position and play as best as you can! :-D Seriuosly, for the good of all the comunity, please reconsider your resign! > Thanks you for reading. Thans to you too. Best Regards, Antonio Gallardo - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Inappropriate use of announce@
On Sun, 19 Oct 2003 19:40:24 -0400 "Noel J. Bergman" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > ... It seems that the newsletter itself is going to the contrary. > The newsletter is doing that job. All that was asked is that you > post an announcement to announce@, not the entire contents. Why is > that a problem? I said that it would cause troubles if *I* keep on performing the task of newsletter editor. Causing the balkanization. I hope someone will take over that fantastic task. http://www.apache.org/newsletter/editor.html Thank you. -- Tetsuya <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> P.S. And I'd been fed up TO DEATH with the controversy of the newsletter issue, as a matter of fact. - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Inappropriate use of announce@
G'day Tetsuya, I'm with Noel here. The newsletter is great, it's just that people who subscribe to announce@ expect to get short e-mails telling them how to find things. They don't expect large e-mails with major content. So don't stop the overall newsletter - your efforts are valued :>. I don't believe you will cause a balkanization of the e-mail culture, but I *do* believe it will take some trial and error to get the dissemination process to a point where most people are comfortable. Don't get dis-heartened, take all the feedback as positive and adapt! Cheers, Berin > > From: Tetsuya Kitahata <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > Subject: Re: Inappropriate use of announce@ > Date: 20/10/2003 9:20:39 > To: community@apache.org > > > Nope. I have to resign. The difference of the e-mail culture. > We, Japanese, do not complain about the volume of the > mails (especially when they are useful and informative) > and I am accustomed to that culture. > > Someone like me (who have such a mind) should not have become > the editor of that newsletter. There could be often friction > and it will cause the "balkanization" of the e-mail culture. > > The original intention of the newsletter was > "Newsletter will be one of the *glue* of the communities in the ASF > umbrella, beyond the artificial boundaries of technical languages etc. > Hope this can gradually lead the good course of the ASF, avoiding the > balkanization of each projects and keep the hand tightly with various > projects.": cooperative collaboration space for all the contributors > > ... It seems that the newsletter itself is going to the contrary. > > Very sad. > > I am willing to resign. > > Thank you for reading. > > -- Tetsuya. ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) > > On Sun, 19 Oct 2003 19:08:19 -0400 > (Subject: RE: Inappropriate use of announce@) > "Noel J. Bergman" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > > Tetsuya, > > > > All that David was asking is that you post a SHORT announcement, like the > > sample I posted, rather than the ENTIRE newsletter. That is all. > > > > You did a great job, as usual, on the newsletter, and you should continue to > > do so, IMO. > > > > --- Noel > > - > Tetsuya Kitahata -- Terra-International, Inc. > E-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.terra-intl.com/ > Apache Software Foundation Committer: http://www.apache.org/~tetsuya/ > fingerprint: E420 3713 FAB0 C160 4A1E 6FC5 5846 23D6 80AE BDEA > > > - > To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > This message was sent through MyMail http://www.mymail.com.au - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Inappropriate use of announce@
On 20/10/2003, at 01:40, Noel J. Bergman wrote: The original intention of the newsletter was "Newsletter will be one of the *glue* of the communities in the ASF umbrella ... It seems that the newsletter itself is going to the contrary. The newsletter is doing that job. All that was asked is that you post an announcement to announce@, not the entire contents. Why is that a problem? What problem do you have with a notice (an announcement)? An announcement of a thing is not the thing. Yes, and to simplify, I think the whole point with this is that when you want to post the complete newsletter to some list, we should create a new, dedicated one for it. Announce@ is for announcements, community@ for community musings, and *perhaps* newsletter@ is for the newsletter. That's it, simple, eh? Cheers, Erik [ back in my cave and btw ;-) ] --- Noel - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
RE: Inappropriate use of announce@
> The original intention of the newsletter was "Newsletter > will be one of the *glue* of the communities in the ASF > umbrella > ... It seems that the newsletter itself is going to the contrary. The newsletter is doing that job. All that was asked is that you post an announcement to announce@, not the entire contents. Why is that a problem? What problem do you have with a notice (an announcement)? An announcement of a thing is not the thing. --- Noel - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Inappropriate use of announce@
Nope. I have to resign. The difference of the e-mail culture. We, Japanese, do not complain about the volume of the mails (especially when they are useful and informative) and I am accustomed to that culture. Someone like me (who have such a mind) should not have become the editor of that newsletter. There could be often friction and it will cause the "balkanization" of the e-mail culture. The original intention of the newsletter was "Newsletter will be one of the *glue* of the communities in the ASF umbrella, beyond the artificial boundaries of technical languages etc. Hope this can gradually lead the good course of the ASF, avoiding the balkanization of each projects and keep the hand tightly with various projects.": cooperative collaboration space for all the contributors ... It seems that the newsletter itself is going to the contrary. Very sad. I am willing to resign. Thank you for reading. -- Tetsuya. ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) On Sun, 19 Oct 2003 19:08:19 -0400 (Subject: RE: Inappropriate use of announce@) "Noel J. Bergman" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > Tetsuya, > > All that David was asking is that you post a SHORT announcement, like the > sample I posted, rather than the ENTIRE newsletter. That is all. > > You did a great job, as usual, on the newsletter, and you should continue to > do so, IMO. > > --- Noel - Tetsuya Kitahata -- Terra-International, Inc. E-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.terra-intl.com/ Apache Software Foundation Committer: http://www.apache.org/~tetsuya/ fingerprint: E420 3713 FAB0 C160 4A1E 6FC5 5846 23D6 80AE BDEA - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
RE: Inappropriate use of announce@
Tetsuya, All that David was asking is that you post a SHORT announcement, like the sample I posted, rather than the ENTIRE newsletter. That is all. You did a great job, as usual, on the newsletter, and you should continue to do so, IMO. --- Noel - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Inappropriate use of announce@
>> This is not an appropriate mail for infrastructure@, so >> I move this topics to [EMAIL PROTECTED] About the "moderation" >> Issue, please go on talking at infrastructure@ David, you are right. I'd been fed up and tired. I am willing to quit the job of the editor of newsletter. I won't post to announce@ any more, except the release news of XX. I hope someone will take over that fantastic task. If noone will raise the hand, the newsletter will be choked and dead. The document for handing over that task can be found at http://www.apache.org/newsletter/editor.html Thank you for reading and sorry for posting FAT mails twice to announce@, before. -- Tetsuya. ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) -- On Sun, 19 Oct 2003 19:09:46 +0100 (Subject: Inappropriate use of announce@) "David Reid" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > I feel the posting of the newsletter to the announce list is not > appropriate. In fact after the last newsletter I thought we'd discussed it > and decided that we wouldn't do that again? Maybe that was just in a dream > sequence... > > Announce is, IMNSHO, NOT intended for large emails, but rather small pieces > that announce (hence the mailing list's title) the existence of new > releases, or in this context, new newsletters. A small email along such > lines would be entirely appropriate and would likely lead to increased > interest! I assume it's available online in some suitable format, so the > post should just link to it! > > AFAICR, this was what we agreed should be done last time we discussed this, > though at that point I think it was on [EMAIL PROTECTED] As that discussions > seems > to have been ignored, perhaps we should try and clarify what we intend the > list to be used for? > > david - Tetsuya Kitahata -- Terra-International, Inc. E-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.terra-intl.com/ Apache Software Foundation Committer: http://www.apache.org/~tetsuya/ fingerprint: E420 3713 FAB0 C160 4A1E 6FC5 5846 23D6 80AE BDEA - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
