Re: Help! Need B.20.1 src
On Jan 26 23:51, John Mellor wrote: > On Sun, 2005-23-01 at 16:03 +0100, Corinna Vinschen wrote: > > You have two choices: > > > > - Comply with the GPL in one way or the other, which always means your > > application is also GPLed and you have to open the source code to > > your customer. > > > > - Or, you ask Red Hat for a special Cygwin License according to this > > paragraph on http://cygwin.com/licensing.html: > > > > Red Hat sells a special Cygwin License for customers who are unable > > to provide their application in open source code form. For more > > information, please see: http://www.redhat.com/software/cygwin/, > > or call +1-866-2REDHAT ext. 45300 (toll-free in the US) > > Thanks for the clarification. Yes, I read that incorrectly. > > I have no problem passing on the full source code to the Customer (after > all, that's what they paid me to work on), but I can't pass it on to > other parties as it contains some code fragments that implement their > trade secrets, and doing so would violate the trade secrecy laws. > > So, am I safe if I give the Customer the source for an app that is > linked against cygwin1.dll, but not also publish it to the whole world? Yes. The GPL requires you to open the sources (of your application *and* of Cygwin) to the audience. If the audience is only one customer, then giving the sources to this one customer is fine. But keep track that your customer doesn't release the application to their customers. In that case, these customers inherit the natural right to get the sources as well! If that's not an option, your customer will have to fall back to purchasing a commercial Cygwin license. One additional hint: The GPL requires that the audience is able to rebuild the exact version of the application. This means, you must provide the exact same source version from which you've build your application to your customer. This rule applies to the Cygwin version as well. If you're providing Cygwin 1.5.12 with your application, then you have to provide also the sources of Cygwin 1.5.12. So it's always a good idea to pull also the source package of Cygwin from the mirror immediately, if you're providing a package which includes Cygwin. Please let's move any further discussion to [EMAIL PROTECTED] I've Cc'd my reply to that list. Corinna -- Corinna Vinschen Please, send mails regarding Cygwin to Cygwin Project Co-Leader mailto:cygwin@cygwin.com Red Hat, Inc. -- Unsubscribe info: http://cygwin.com/ml/#unsubscribe-simple Problem reports: http://cygwin.com/problems.html Documentation: http://cygwin.com/docs.html FAQ: http://cygwin.com/faq/
Re: Help! Need B.20.1 src
On Sun, 2005-23-01 at 16:03 +0100, Corinna Vinschen wrote: > On Jan 23 09:28, John Mellor wrote: > > On Sat, 2005-22-01 at 20:22 -0500, Christopher Faylor wrote: > > > On Sat, Jan 22, 2005 at 05:17:44PM -0800, Brian Dessent wrote: > > > >I don't know if the ancient Bxx series was LGPL, but the current Cygwin > > > >source is GPL which means you must provide not only the Cygwin DLL > > > >source but also all the source of your app that links to it. > > > > > > > >There is a mailing list to discuss this: cygwin-licensing at cygwin dot > > > >com. > > > > > > I think that cygwin has been GPL since early 1997. > > > > > > So, you're right. I can't believe I missed this. Anything that uses the > > > Cygwin DLL is GPLed. > > > > In fact, I cannot ship the source for the app if I wanted to, as that > > would then publish some of the Customer's proprietary trade secrets. > > If you linked your application against the Cygwin DLL, then this > application *is* GPL'd. Full stop up to this point. You don't > have to publish the sources to the world, but you have to publish > your sources to your customer. Your customer has the right to > get the source code of your application and the Cygwin DLL. If > you didn't do this so far, you're violating the license. > > > However, if I read the specific version of the GPL that is being used > > for cygwin correctly, then it says: > > > > > In accordance with section 10 of the GPL, Red Hat permits programs > > > whose sources are distributed under a license that complies with the > > > Open Source definition to be linked with libcygwin.a/cygwin1.dll > > > without libcygwin.a/cygwin1.dll itself causing the resulting program > > > to be covered by the GNU GPL. > > > [...] > > > > I believe that my app meets this criteria, and this then prevents me > > from being between a rock and a hard place;^) > > I don't see how that applies to your application. The above paragraph > only mentions that open source applications are excempted from that rule, > not proprietary software as yours. > > You have two choices: > > - Comply with the GPL in one way or the other, which always means your > application is also GPLed and you have to open the source code to > your customer. > > - Or, you ask Red Hat for a special Cygwin License according to this > paragraph on http://cygwin.com/licensing.html: > > Red Hat sells a special Cygwin License for customers who are unable > to provide their application in open source code form. For more > information, please see: http://www.redhat.com/software/cygwin/, > or call +1-866-2REDHAT ext. 45300 (toll-free in the US) Thanks for the clarification. Yes, I read that incorrectly. I have no problem passing on the full source code to the Customer (after all, that's what they paid me to work on), but I can't pass it on to other parties as it contains some code fragments that implement their trade secrets, and doing so would violate the trade secrecy laws. So, am I safe if I give the Customer the source for an app that is linked against cygwin1.dll, but not also publish it to the whole world? -- Unsubscribe info: http://cygwin.com/ml/#unsubscribe-simple Problem reports: http://cygwin.com/problems.html Documentation: http://cygwin.com/docs.html FAQ: http://cygwin.com/faq/
Re: Help! Need B.20.1 src
On Sun, Jan 23, 2005 at 09:28:45AM -0500, John Mellor wrote: >On Sat, 2005-22-01 at 20:22 -0500, Christopher Faylor wrote: >> On Sat, Jan 22, 2005 at 05:17:44PM -0800, Brian Dessent wrote: >> >John Mellor wrote: >> >>Correct me if I'm mistaken, but if I'm going to make a few dollars off >> >>of a non-free something that links in an open source library, I need to >> >>provide the source for the open-source parts with the product, or fall >> >>afoul of the LGPL. So, to make everybody happy, I believe that all I >> >>need to add, is to provide the source for cygwin1.dll to the Customer. >> > >> >I don't know if the ancient Bxx series was LGPL, but the current Cygwin >> >source is GPL which means you must provide not only the Cygwin DLL >> >source but also all the source of your app that links to it. >> > >> >There is a mailing list to discuss this: cygwin-licensing at cygwin dot >> >com. >> >> I think that cygwin has been GPL since early 1997. >> >> So, you're right. I can't believe I missed this. Anything that uses the >> Cygwin DLL is GPLed. > >In fact, I cannot ship the source for the app if I wanted to, as that >would then publish some of the Customer's proprietary trade secrets. >However, if I read the specific version of the GPL that is being used >for cygwin correctly, then it says: > >> In accordance with section 10 of the GPL, Red Hat permits programs >> whose sources are distributed under a license that complies with the >> Open Source definition to be linked with libcygwin.a/cygwin1.dll >> without libcygwin.a/cygwin1.dll itself causing the resulting program >> to be covered by the GNU GPL. >> >> This means that you can port an Open Source(tm) application to cygwin, >> and distribute that executable as if it didn't include a copy of >> libcygwin.a/cygwin1.dll linked into it. Note that this does not apply >> to the cygwin DLL itself. If you distribute a (possibly modified) >> version of the DLL you must adhere to the terms of the GPL, i.e. you >> must provide sources for the cygwin DLL. > >I believe that my app meets this criteria, and this then prevents me >from being between a rock and a hard place;^) I think it's already been pointed out that licensing discussions should go to cygwin-licensing. I've reset the reply-to for this message. However, when you mention being unable to ship the source, it is hard to see how you could possibly be compliant with anythin that resembles an open source license. FWIW, you don't have to provide the source code to the world. You just have to provide source code to anyone who gets the binaries. Also, if you truly are using B20.1, then the license was just GPL back then. The overriding of section 10 didn't happen until I had pleaded with Cygnus's CEO to allow this change. -- Christopher Faylor spammer? -> [EMAIL PROTECTED] Cygwin Co-Project Leader[EMAIL PROTECTED] TimeSys, Inc. -- Unsubscribe info: http://cygwin.com/ml/#unsubscribe-simple Problem reports: http://cygwin.com/problems.html Documentation: http://cygwin.com/docs.html FAQ: http://cygwin.com/faq/
Re: Help! Need B.20.1 src
On Jan 23 09:28, John Mellor wrote: > On Sat, 2005-22-01 at 20:22 -0500, Christopher Faylor wrote: > > On Sat, Jan 22, 2005 at 05:17:44PM -0800, Brian Dessent wrote: > > >I don't know if the ancient Bxx series was LGPL, but the current Cygwin > > >source is GPL which means you must provide not only the Cygwin DLL > > >source but also all the source of your app that links to it. > > > > > >There is a mailing list to discuss this: cygwin-licensing at cygwin dot > > >com. > > > > I think that cygwin has been GPL since early 1997. > > > > So, you're right. I can't believe I missed this. Anything that uses the > > Cygwin DLL is GPLed. > > In fact, I cannot ship the source for the app if I wanted to, as that > would then publish some of the Customer's proprietary trade secrets. If you linked your application against the Cygwin DLL, then this application *is* GPL'd. Full stop up to this point. You don't have to publish the sources to the world, but you have to publish your sources to your customer. Your customer has the right to get the source code of your application and the Cygwin DLL. If you didn't do this so far, you're violating the license. > However, if I read the specific version of the GPL that is being used > for cygwin correctly, then it says: > > > In accordance with section 10 of the GPL, Red Hat permits programs > > whose sources are distributed under a license that complies with the > > Open Source definition to be linked with libcygwin.a/cygwin1.dll > > without libcygwin.a/cygwin1.dll itself causing the resulting program > > to be covered by the GNU GPL. > > [...] > > I believe that my app meets this criteria, and this then prevents me > from being between a rock and a hard place;^) I don't see how that applies to your application. The above paragraph only mentions that open source applications are excempted from that rule, not proprietary software as yours. You have two choices: - Comply with the GPL in one way or the other, which always means your application is also GPLed and you have to open the source code to your customer. - Or, you ask Red Hat for a special Cygwin License according to this paragraph on http://cygwin.com/licensing.html: Red Hat sells a special Cygwin License for customers who are unable to provide their application in open source code form. For more information, please see: http://www.redhat.com/software/cygwin/, or call +1-866-2REDHAT ext. 45300 (toll-free in the US) Corinna -- Corinna Vinschen Please, send mails regarding Cygwin to Cygwin Project Co-Leader mailto:cygwin@cygwin.com Red Hat, Inc. -- Unsubscribe info: http://cygwin.com/ml/#unsubscribe-simple Problem reports: http://cygwin.com/problems.html Documentation: http://cygwin.com/docs.html FAQ: http://cygwin.com/faq/
Re: Help! Need B.20.1 src
On Sat, 2005-22-01 at 20:06 -0500, Christopher Faylor wrote: > On Sat, Jan 22, 2005 at 08:00:00PM -0500, John Mellor wrote: > >On Sat, 2005-22-01 at 18:44 -0500, Christopher Faylor wrote: > >> On Sat, Jan 22, 2005 at 05:23:41PM -0500, John Mellor wrote: > >> >I'm looking for the source for the cygwin1.dll b.20.1.19 version, put > >> >out in 1999. The CVS tree on the RedHat site only goes back 4 years, > >> >and I guess they just threw everything before that in the bit bucket. > >> >Anybody got a copy, or know where I can get it? > > > >> How about humoring us and telling us why you think you need this. > > > >Some time ago, I built a package that links in this DLL that somebody > >found useful, and now actually wants to pay me for. Having to put food > >on the table, I'd like to oblige them. Rather than upgrading to the > >latest-and-greatest, and all the work involved in changing APIs, etc., I > >just want to ship the one that I've got, seeing as it works perfectly > >well. > > Thanks for satisfying my curiousity. > > We go to quite some effort to make sure that nothing changed from B20 > until now, so you should just be able to send your customer the latest > cygwin DLL + sources without resorting to finding an almost six year > old version of cygwin1.dll. There is no need to change APIs. > > >Any idea where I can get it now? > > Nope. I wrote all of the warnings on the home page at > http://cygwin.com/ : > > "The last Bxx release was in December 1998. The Bxx releases are no > longer available. In fact, older versions of the DLL or utilities are > not usually available on this web site. Any cygwin program built from > December 1998 onward should work correctly with newer DLLs." Thanks for the quick reply! I'll try running it with the latest dll underneatch instead of the original one, just to make sure nothing got unintentionally broken. If that solves my problem, cool. Thanks! -- Unsubscribe info: http://cygwin.com/ml/#unsubscribe-simple Problem reports: http://cygwin.com/problems.html Documentation: http://cygwin.com/docs.html FAQ: http://cygwin.com/faq/
Re: Help! Need B.20.1 src
On Sat, 2005-22-01 at 20:22 -0500, Christopher Faylor wrote: > On Sat, Jan 22, 2005 at 05:17:44PM -0800, Brian Dessent wrote: > >John Mellor wrote: > >>Correct me if I'm mistaken, but if I'm going to make a few dollars off > >>of a non-free something that links in an open source library, I need to > >>provide the source for the open-source parts with the product, or fall > >>afoul of the LGPL. So, to make everybody happy, I believe that all I > >>need to add, is to provide the source for cygwin1.dll to the Customer. > > > >I don't know if the ancient Bxx series was LGPL, but the current Cygwin > >source is GPL which means you must provide not only the Cygwin DLL > >source but also all the source of your app that links to it. > > > >There is a mailing list to discuss this: cygwin-licensing at cygwin dot > >com. > > I think that cygwin has been GPL since early 1997. > > So, you're right. I can't believe I missed this. Anything that uses the > Cygwin DLL is GPLed. In fact, I cannot ship the source for the app if I wanted to, as that would then publish some of the Customer's proprietary trade secrets. However, if I read the specific version of the GPL that is being used for cygwin correctly, then it says: > In accordance with section 10 of the GPL, Red Hat permits programs > whose sources are distributed under a license that complies with the > Open Source definition to be linked with libcygwin.a/cygwin1.dll > without libcygwin.a/cygwin1.dll itself causing the resulting program > to be covered by the GNU GPL. > > This means that you can port an Open Source(tm) application to cygwin, > and distribute that executable as if it didn't include a copy of > libcygwin.a/cygwin1.dll linked into it. Note that this does not apply > to the cygwin DLL itself. If you distribute a (possibly modified) > version of the DLL you must adhere to the terms of the GPL, i.e. you > must provide sources for the cygwin DLL. I believe that my app meets this criteria, and this then prevents me from being between a rock and a hard place;^) -- Unsubscribe info: http://cygwin.com/ml/#unsubscribe-simple Problem reports: http://cygwin.com/problems.html Documentation: http://cygwin.com/docs.html FAQ: http://cygwin.com/faq/
Re: Help! Need B.20.1 src
On Sat, Jan 22, 2005 at 05:17:44PM -0800, Brian Dessent wrote: >John Mellor wrote: >>Correct me if I'm mistaken, but if I'm going to make a few dollars off >>of a non-free something that links in an open source library, I need to >>provide the source for the open-source parts with the product, or fall >>afoul of the LGPL. So, to make everybody happy, I believe that all I >>need to add, is to provide the source for cygwin1.dll to the Customer. > >I don't know if the ancient Bxx series was LGPL, but the current Cygwin >source is GPL which means you must provide not only the Cygwin DLL >source but also all the source of your app that links to it. > >There is a mailing list to discuss this: cygwin-licensing at cygwin dot >com. I think that cygwin has been GPL since early 1997. So, you're right. I can't believe I missed this. Anything that uses the Cygwin DLL is GPLed. cgf -- Unsubscribe info: http://cygwin.com/ml/#unsubscribe-simple Problem reports: http://cygwin.com/problems.html Documentation: http://cygwin.com/docs.html FAQ: http://cygwin.com/faq/
Re: Help! Need B.20.1 src
John Mellor wrote: > Correct me if I'm mistaken, but if I'm going to make a few dollars off > of a non-free something that links in an open source library, I need to > provide the source for the open-source parts with the product, or fall > afoul of the LGPL. So, to make everybody happy, I believe that all I > need to add, is to provide the source for cygwin1.dll to the Customer. I don't know if the ancient Bxx series was LGPL, but the current Cygwin source is GPL which means you must provide not only the Cygwin DLL source but also all the source of your app that links to it. There is a mailing list to discuss this: cygwin-licensing at cygwin dot com. Brian -- Unsubscribe info: http://cygwin.com/ml/#unsubscribe-simple Problem reports: http://cygwin.com/problems.html Documentation: http://cygwin.com/docs.html FAQ: http://cygwin.com/faq/
Re: Help! Need B.20.1 src
On Sat, Jan 22, 2005 at 08:00:00PM -0500, John Mellor wrote: >On Sat, 2005-22-01 at 18:44 -0500, Christopher Faylor wrote: >> On Sat, Jan 22, 2005 at 05:23:41PM -0500, John Mellor wrote: >> >I'm looking for the source for the cygwin1.dll b.20.1.19 version, put >> >out in 1999. The CVS tree on the RedHat site only goes back 4 years, >> >and I guess they just threw everything before that in the bit bucket. >> >Anybody got a copy, or know where I can get it? > >> How about humoring us and telling us why you think you need this. > >Some time ago, I built a package that links in this DLL that somebody >found useful, and now actually wants to pay me for. Having to put food >on the table, I'd like to oblige them. Rather than upgrading to the >latest-and-greatest, and all the work involved in changing APIs, etc., I >just want to ship the one that I've got, seeing as it works perfectly >well. Thanks for satisfying my curiousity. We go to quite some effort to make sure that nothing changed from B20 until now, so you should just be able to send your customer the latest cygwin DLL + sources without resorting to finding an almost six year old version of cygwin1.dll. There is no need to change APIs. >Any idea where I can get it now? Nope. I wrote all of the warnings on the home page at http://cygwin.com/ : "The last Bxx release was in December 1998. The Bxx releases are no longer available. In fact, older versions of the DLL or utilities are not usually available on this web site. Any cygwin program built from December 1998 onward should work correctly with newer DLLs." cgf -- Unsubscribe info: http://cygwin.com/ml/#unsubscribe-simple Problem reports: http://cygwin.com/problems.html Documentation: http://cygwin.com/docs.html FAQ: http://cygwin.com/faq/
Re: Help! Need B.20.1 src
On Sat, 2005-22-01 at 18:44 -0500, Christopher Faylor wrote: > On Sat, Jan 22, 2005 at 05:23:41PM -0500, John Mellor wrote: > >I'm looking for the source for the cygwin1.dll b.20.1.19 version, put > >out in 1999. The CVS tree on the RedHat site only goes back 4 years, > >and I guess they just threw everything before that in the bit bucket. > >Anybody got a copy, or know where I can get it? > How about humoring us and telling us why you think you need this. Some time ago, I built a package that links in this DLL that somebody found useful, and now actually wants to pay me for. Having to put food on the table, I'd like to oblige them. Rather than upgrading to the latest-and-greatest, and all the work involved in changing APIs, etc., I just want to ship the one that I've got, seeing as it works perfectly well. Correct me if I'm mistaken, but if I'm going to make a few dollars off of a non-free something that links in an open source library, I need to provide the source for the open-source parts with the product, or fall afoul of the LGPL. So, to make everybody happy, I believe that all I need to add, is to provide the source for cygwin1.dll to the Customer. Quite some time ago, I lost my most of my older cygwin stuff when I had a disk crash and a bad backup, and I guess I'm going to need to replace some of it. However, the source tree for this old stuff is no longer available in the RedHat CVS repository or the many mirrors that I've checked. Any idea where I can get it now? -- Unsubscribe info: http://cygwin.com/ml/#unsubscribe-simple Problem reports: http://cygwin.com/problems.html Documentation: http://cygwin.com/docs.html FAQ: http://cygwin.com/faq/
Re: Help! Need B.20.1 src
Christopher Faylor wrote: On Sat, Jan 22, 2005 at 05:23:41PM -0500, John Mellor wrote: I'm looking for the source for the cygwin1.dll b.20.1.19 version, put out in 1999. The CVS tree on the RedHat site only goes back 4 years, and I guess they just threw everything before that in the bit bucket. Anybody got a copy, or know where I can get it? How about humoring us and telling us why you think you need this. Isn't it obvious, Chris? Everybody knows that cygwin B20.1 was practically perfect in every way. Later releases were only made to salve the developers' egos, since they had obviously outlasted their usefulness once the perfect cygwin was released, in B20.1. Some people are too smart to be taken in by the bogus claptrap of the higher version numbers like 1.3.18 or 1.5.12. B20.1 is da bomb, baby! -- Chuck -- Unsubscribe info: http://cygwin.com/ml/#unsubscribe-simple Problem reports: http://cygwin.com/problems.html Documentation: http://cygwin.com/docs.html FAQ: http://cygwin.com/faq/
Re: Help! Need B.20.1 src
On Sat, Jan 22, 2005 at 05:23:41PM -0500, John Mellor wrote: >I'm looking for the source for the cygwin1.dll b.20.1.19 version, put >out in 1999. The CVS tree on the RedHat site only goes back 4 years, >and I guess they just threw everything before that in the bit bucket. > >Anybody got a copy, or know where I can get it? How about humoring us and telling us why you think you need this. cgf -- Unsubscribe info: http://cygwin.com/ml/#unsubscribe-simple Problem reports: http://cygwin.com/problems.html Documentation: http://cygwin.com/docs.html FAQ: http://cygwin.com/faq/
Help! Need B.20.1 src
Hi, I'm looking for the source for the cygwin1.dll b.20.1.19 version, put out in 1999. The CVS tree on the RedHat site only goes back 4 years, and I guess they just threw everything before that in the bit bucket. Anybody got a copy, or know where I can get it? -- Unsubscribe info: http://cygwin.com/ml/#unsubscribe-simple Problem reports: http://cygwin.com/problems.html Documentation: http://cygwin.com/docs.html FAQ: http://cygwin.com/faq/
