Re: 7/10/70 vs. 6/24/70 early; 7/11/70 + 7/12/70
Michael Goetz's comments distort the issues. The issue isn't "competition" except in his head (easy to see why as editor & beneficiary of the Compendium he sees it that way, but no sign of "competition" in my comments). The issue is _accuracy_ and it is entirely legitimate to raise the issue of the Compendium's copious inaccuracies when we are trying to decide how much weight to accord it in discussions such as this. Trying to depict those entirely reasonable concerns as "competitive" or "personal stuff" or "negativity" is just a smokescreen, or a delusion, or a vicious ad hominem attack, or as best as we can expect from the source -- take your pick. But it's bullshit any way you cut it. If Goetz wants to "put this issue to rest" maybe he should fix his product. Of course the idea that now we can all go out and buy the Addendum to fix some of the mistakes in the previous $100+ worth of Compendiums, ! Hey Michael, why don't we all just send you checks, and skip the waste of trees?
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Re: 7/10/70 vs. 6/24/70 early; 7/11/70 + 7/12/70
on 3/26/02 8:15 PM, Jim Powell at [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: > I wouldn't waste my money. Well, then I think you should resign as 69-70 caretaker, given that your bias towards anything Compendium-related is effecting your accuracy, and thus the accuracy of Deadlists as a whole. Marty Weinberg is arguably the most influential and important GD taper ever. The fact that he only recently made his reels available after a 25 year absence from the scene -- regardless of their disarray -- along with a very informative, lengthy interview cannot just be discarded because it's published in the new Compendium Addendum. To intentionally ignore Marty's contributions is inviting ignorance. I'll say it again. This isn't physics and our research isn't feeding people around the world. I still love it, don't get me wrong. But when it gets to a competitive level, as Jim constantly instigates, the fun goes away and it tastes bitter. Hell, that's not why I enjoy the Dead community or their music. Or Deadlists itself. Discussions can be fun and lively if the personal stuff is left out. But I'm quite fed up with receiving a constant barrage of negativity from Powell towards myself and other contributors to the fine Compendium series. And I think it's time others spoke up so we can put this issue to rest once and for all. Michael
Re: 7/10/70 vs. 6/24/70 early; 7/11/70 + 7/12/70
Thanks for your careful, thoughtful post, Scott. There are a number of points it doesn't take into consideration, however: * the other AUD master of 7/11/70 is certainly circulated labeled "7/11/70." * there are copies of the tape which is currently listed in DeadLists as "7/10/70" in circulation labeled "7/10/70," and the lowest generation copy I have seen of it is among them. * I am in no position to fathom Weinberg's confusions. I do know for a fact that a number of his tapes, and reconfigured portions of his tapes, have been in circulation for a long time mislabeled. So I'm not inclined to trust his labeling as against other evidence. Although I can't cite specific instances I know there are other AUDs from this period with Boots' explosions on them. The first places I would look re the Fillmore West AUDs for 1970. * It's certainly clear from the peformance, and also strongly suggested by the introduction welcoming them "back" to the Capital Theater, that the tape mislabed "3/20/70 early" is not from that date; that it IS from the Capitol Theater, and that it is from the period of June-July '70. Since they only played one date at the Capitol Theater during this period, the dating of "6/24/70" for this tape is by no means as unreasonably speculative as you try to claim. * I agree with you completely about the need to keep questions open & consider new evidence. I was acquainted a couple years ago with what I take to be the content of the Compendium Addendum regarding this tape, and I came to the conclusions reflected in the DeadLists listing based on the information & tapes I have, including the points noted above. The next time I see one in a bookstore I'll read what it says about this issue. I certainly won't waste my money buying one. *I came to my opinion of the accuracy of the Compendium from inspecting a copy of the first volume, and from my experience dealing with the editors when they were in the planning stages of the project and demonstrated considerably more concern for issues other than accuracy (to put it politely). *Neither the number of mislabeled copies of his masters, nor what we've perhaps both heard of his subsequent behavior leads me to put a lot of trust in Weinberg's testimony. respectfully .,
Re: 7/10/70 vs. 6/24/70 early; 7/11/70 + 7/12/70
Jim Powell wrote: > I wouldn't waste my money. > > Some of the best money I ever spent (seriously). Dave S.
Re: 7/10/70 vs. 6/24/70 early; 7/11/70 + 7/12/70
I wouldn't waste my money.
Re: 7/10/70 vs. 6/24/70 early; 7/11/70 + 7/12/70
and the 2nd audience master of 7/11/70 proves that Weinberg's tape is mis-dated. And we know that Weinberg's tapes wound up in various configurations with various wrong dates besides this.
Re: 7/10/70 vs. 6/24/70 early; 7/11/70 + 7/12/70
At 11:21 PM 3/26/2002 -0500, Scott Allan wrote: >-Original Message- >From: Dwight Holmes <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> >Cc: deadlists <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> >Date: Tuesday, March 26, 2002 4:15 PM >Subject: Re: 7/10/70 vs. 6/24/70 early; 7/11/70 + 7/12/70 > > > >i have neither music nor notes here, and my un-aided memory ain't worth > >much. but doesn't the "6-24-70 early" (erstwhile 3-20-70 early) tape start >out >with the emcee welcoming the Dead "back" to the Capitol Theatre? that >was a >major reason the early date just didn't work -- and would also seem >to rule out >the Fillmore date as a possibility as well. but i could be >mixing this up with >another show... > > >Good point about the Fillmore being ruled-out by the opening announcement. > >One possibility that seems to have slipped past consideration about >welcoming the Dead "back" to the Capitol Theatre: a return from set break. >Also, perhaps the emcee was confused and didn't realize they hadn't played >there before. Stranger things have happened... Oh, but the music says it can't be a March show. No doubt about that. You want the tape I made to prove that (chronologically ordered versions of every Casey Jones solo from March to November and Me & My Uncle?? :)) In terms of musical development it fits nicely in June or July. Definitely not March.
Re: 7/10/70 vs. 6/24/70 early; 7/11/70 + 7/12/70
-Original Message- From: Dwight Holmes <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Cc: deadlists <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Date: Tuesday, March 26, 2002 4:15 PM Subject: Re: 7/10/70 vs. 6/24/70 early; 7/11/70 + 7/12/70 >i have neither music nor notes here, and my un-aided memory ain't worth >much. but doesn't the "6-24-70 early" (erstwhile 3-20-70 early) tape start out >with the emcee welcoming the Dead "back" to the Capitol Theatre? that was a >major reason the early date just didn't work -- and would also seem to rule out >the Fillmore date as a possibility as well. but i could be mixing this up with >another show... Good point about the Fillmore being ruled-out by the opening announcement. One possibility that seems to have slipped past consideration about welcoming the Dead "back" to the Capitol Theatre: a return from set break. Also, perhaps the emcee was confused and didn't realize they hadn't played there before. Stranger things have happened... Scott
Re: 7/10/70 vs. 6/24/70 early; 7/11/70 + 7/12/70
-Original Message- From: Jim Powell <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Date: Tuesday, March 26, 2002 3:54 PM Subject: 7/10/70 vs. 6/24/70 early; 7/11/70 + 7/12/70 >These were 'midnight shows,' booked Thurs July 9 - Sun July 12, but each >show actually starting the date after the date on the ticket. This may have >caused confusion about the dating of Weinberg's tape. But the existance of >TWO MASTERS FOR 7/11/70 proves that the list for that date is correct, as I >have observed here before, which also tends to confirm that the 7/12/70 tape >must be labeled accurately. Actually, if Marty Weinberg fell victim to the confusion you describe, the only possible dates for the show that has circulated as "7/12/70" are 7/10/70 and 7/11/70. If it were the 7/12 show, he'd be introducing the show as either Sunday or Monday, but not Saturday. Also, wasn't at least one of the masters of what circulates as "7/11/70" not labeled as such on the master? I believe it was the more complete master. >The explosion audible on the 7/10/70 tape is Boots igniting a column of gas >behind the drum risers -- a frequent occurance at shows during this period, >audible on other tapes. I'm aware that the explosions are courtesy of Boots, but offhand I can't think of any shows where I've heard it besides 6/24/70 (and I've heard most of the circulating audience tapes from '70). >See DeadLists for 6/24/70b and 7/10/70 for more. I've actually read through those listings thoroughly and repeatedly in hopes of gleaning some info that would shed light on the questions I have. Unfortunately, all that is evident is: - the show circulating as "3/20/70 early" is almost certainly not from that date. - it has a sound and style consistent with a June '70 show. Therefore, it is assumed to be 6/24/70 early, and the show circulating as "6/24/70 early" is assumed to be dated incorrectly. This has led to a scramble to re-date it, with 7/10/70 decided upon as a likely date. The logic behind speculating that "3/20/70 early" is 6/24/70 early is reasonably compelling, but it doesn't strike me as compelling enough to bump the tape circulating as that date to another date. It seems at least as reasonable to assume that the Dead tried sandwiching Attics in each of their two big jam tunes on the same night - once during the early show, once during the late show. It seems more prudent to consider the "3/20/70 early" tape as "unknown '70" unless we are fairly certain that the "6/24/70 early" tape is not the show it claims to be. >The Tapers Compendium contains numerous errors about dates, lists and tapes >circulating. I know it's not perfect. Many of the errors can be attributed to the fact that the essays were based on what was circulating when they were written, but new source recordings and information was discovered by the time the book actually made it to bookstores 1-2 years later. I'm not basing my argument on a supposition that the Compendium, or DeadBase, is a superior source to deadlists. I am presenting a direct quote from Marty Weinberg's tape that is contained in the Addendium, which appears to be new info regarding the 7/70 Fillmore East shows. If it's not new info, then it apparently has already been decided that Marty Weinberg did not know what day or date it was when he was recording the show in question. Remember, the quote is not from memory 30+ years later; it was a statement he made into the tape recorder *at the show, on the night he recorded it*. At the very least, this should re-open discussion about the current conception of the 7/70 Fillmore East shows. If the deadlists site is to remain the most accurate reference possible for Grateful Dead setlists and show dates, then all pieces of new info need to be considered and, if appropriate, integrated with the existing info. If we dismiss bits of new info offhand because of the mere mention of the Compendium series, it becomes hard to evaluate that new info objectively, and the deadlist site's accuracy could suffer as a result. Scott
Re: 7/10/70 vs. 6/24/70 early; 7/11/70 + 7/12/70
> From: Jim Powell <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > Date: Tue, 26 Mar 2002 15:11:45 -0800 (PST) > Subject: Re: 7/10/70 vs. 6/24/70 early; 7/11/70 + 7/12/70 > > The editors of the compendium blew off the pursuit Hahahaha, "blew off" ... what an ironic choice of a phrase, huh ? Gregg.
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Re: 7/10/70 vs. 6/24/70 early; 7/11/70 + 7/12/70
Lets not be silly Jim. A lot of the same people are involved in both DeadLists and the Compendium books. Just look at the names. The Compendium books are a treasure trove of information, which is being kept up to date. The new Addendum volume that came out about 3 weeks ago is a fantastic book that contains year by year corrections and updates to the 1st three volumes as well as some cool info on Marty W and Dick L. You ought to pick up a copy. Your 1969/1970 listings might benefit if you did. Dave S. > > Jim Powell <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > Date: Tue, 26 Mar 2002 15:11:45 -0800 (PST) > Subject: Re: 7/10/70 vs. 6/24/70 early; 7/11/70 + 7/12/70 > > DeadLists is correctable on an ongoing basis & makes corrections as we go. > The editors of the compendium blew off the pursuit of accuracy in details of > lists & tapes from the beginning, as I know from personal communication with > them. And the results are apparent. And it is worthwhile to warn people > intrested in these details that they should NOT rely on the Compendium, > because it is unreliable. > >
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Re: 7/10/70 vs. 6/24/70 early; 7/11/70 + 7/12/70
DeadLists is correctable on an ongoing basis & makes corrections as we go. The editors of the compendium blew off the pursuit of accuracy in details of lists & tapes from the beginning, as I know from personal communication with them. And the results are apparent. And it is worthwhile to warn people intrested in these details that they should NOT rely on the Compendium, because it is unreliable.
4/14/71 question about Other One>Wharf Rat
I know I came to the right place with this question! Can anyone who has the 4/14/71 (Lewisburg, PA) SBDMR>C>DAT>CD lineage do me a favor and spot check something for me? My copy, which seems fine otherwise, has a disturbing screeching sound and a lot of distortion beginning immediately out of drums into The Other One which continues through Wharf Rat. Then the show if fine again. Since this is one of few circulating high quality shows not reviewed in the Compendium or Addendum, I'm trying to determine if its the nature of the recording or a bad burn on disc #2 of my copy. Any replies appreciated, Stu
Re: 7/10/70 vs. 6/24/70 early; 7/11/70 + 7/12/70
> i have neither music nor notes here, and my un-aided memory ain't worth much. but doesn't the "6-24-70 early" (erstwhile 3-20-70 early) tape start out with the emcee welcoming the Dead "back" to the Capitol Theatre? that was a major reason the early date just didn't work -- and would also seem to rule out the Fillmore date as a possibility as well. but i could be mixing this up with another show... dwight > Scott Allan wrote: > > I was wondering how certain it is that the tape that has circulated for years as >"6/24/70 early" is not in fact from that date. In the "Deadhead's Taping Addendium", >on p.29, Morgan Evans makes a very good point in support of the 6/24 date: "Also I >noticed that there is a loud, gunshot-like explosive effect employed once during Cold >Rain & twice during Easy Wind that I have heard on only one other tape: 6/24/70 late >show, during the climax of the Dark Star jam." > > Aside from speculation about the tape that has circulated for years as 3/20/70 >early, do we have any evidence that "6/24/70 early" is *not* from that date? Or, are >we just assuming that because "3/20/70 early" looks like it's probably 6/24/70 early, >the "6/24/70 early" tape can't be from that date? > > Could it be that the "3/20/70 early" tape is actually from the 7/70 run, and not >6/24/70 early? It may be best to go with an "uncertain" date for the "3/20/70 early" >recording, since there doesn't appear to be any good evidence not to believe "6/24/70 >early" is correctly labeled. > > > Another note about '70 show labels: on p.30 of the "Addendium", a transcript of one >of the Marty Weinberg reels has him introducing the show as "Saturday night, July >11th, 1970". The music that follows is the start of the electric set from the show >that has circulated for years as "7/12/70". It would be plausible that this date >would be in error if it came from memory, or if he'd only mentioned the date. The >statement of both the date and day is fairly conclusive evidence that the "7/12/70" >show is in fact 7/11/70. > > What does that mean with respect to the show that has circulated as "7/11/70"? Some >people have stated that this show is in fact from Sunday, 7/12/70. I forget who - it >might have been Marty Weinberg - recalled the Viola Lee show as being the finale (2nd >hand info). Also, this would solve the issue of the "phantom" UJB encore that >DeadBase lists for 7/12/70, but has never appeared on tapes with that date. It could >be that the only reason that encore is listed is that one or more people told one of >the DeadBase editors something like "the last show of the run, the 12th, ended with a >UJB encore". Well, if the "7/11/70" show is in fact 7/12/70, the problem of the >missing UJB is solved! > > Scott > >
Re: 7/10/70 vs. 6/24/70 early; 7/11/70 + 7/12/70
Jim wrote: > > The Tapers Compendium contains numerous errors about dates, lists and tapes > circulating. > Kinda like DeadLists that way, huh? And every other record keeping method we've ever tried. Someday we'll all just be able to download an ever updating stream of current information right into out brains. It will even pull info out of all the attics and basements where all the missing gems are still hiding. Until that day my hat is off to all the people crazy enough to keep up with this kind of stuff and make it accessible to anyone interested. Noah
7/10/70 vs. 6/24/70 early; 7/11/70 + 7/12/70
These were 'midnight shows,' booked Thurs July 9 - Sun July 12, but each show actually starting the date after the date on the ticket. This may have caused confusion about the dating of Weinberg's tape. But the existance of TWO MASTERS FOR 7/11/70 proves that the list for that date is correct, as I have observed here before, which also tends to confirm that the 7/12/70 tape must be labeled accurately. The explosion audible on the 7/10/70 tape is Boots igniting a column of gas behind the drum risers -- a frequent occurance at shows during this period, audible on other tapes. See DeadLists for 6/24/70b and 7/10/70 for more. The Tapers Compendium contains numerous errors about dates, lists and tapes circulating.
7/10/70 vs. 6/24/70 early; 7/11/70 + 7/12/70
I was wondering how certain it is that the tape that has circulated for years as "6/24/70 early" is not in fact from that date. In the "Deadhead's Taping Addendium", on p.29, Morgan Evans makes a very good point in support of the 6/24 date: "Also I noticed that there is a loud, gunshot-like explosive effect employed once during Cold Rain & twice during Easy Wind that I have heard on only one other tape: 6/24/70 late show, during the climax of the Dark Star jam." Aside from speculation about the tape that has circulated for years as 3/20/70 early, do we have any evidence that "6/24/70 early" is *not* from that date? Or, are we just assuming that because "3/20/70 early" looks like it's probably 6/24/70 early, the "6/24/70 early" tape can't be from that date? Could it be that the "3/20/70 early" tape is actually from the 7/70 run, and not 6/24/70 early? It may be best to go with an "uncertain" date for the "3/20/70 early" recording, since there doesn't appear to be any good evidence not to believe "6/24/70 early" is correctly labeled. Another note about '70 show labels: on p.30 of the "Addendium", a transcript of one of the Marty Weinberg reels has him introducing the show as "Saturday night, July 11th, 1970". The music that follows is the start of the electric set from the show that has circulated for years as "7/12/70". It would be plausible that this date would be in error if it came from memory, or if he'd only mentioned the date. The statement of both the date and day is fairly conclusive evidence that the "7/12/70" show is in fact 7/11/70. What does that mean with respect to the show that has circulated as "7/11/70"? Some people have stated that this show is in fact from Sunday, 7/12/70. I forget who - it might have been Marty Weinberg - recalled the Viola Lee show as being the finale (2nd hand info). Also, this would solve the issue of the "phantom" UJB encore that DeadBase lists for 7/12/70, but has never appeared on tapes with that date. It could be that the only reason that encore is listed is that one or more people told one of the DeadBase editors something like "the last show of the run, the 12th, ended with a UJB encore". Well, if the "7/11/70" show is in fact 7/12/70, the problem of the missing UJB is solved! Scott
