Re: Google ads on debian.org

[Stephen Frost]

* Pete van der Spoel ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) wrote:
> * Martin Schulze ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) [041213 19:30]:
> >I personally don't see the issues so problematic as you do. But: A lot
> >of (valuable) project members disagree, and, frankly speaking, keeping
> >you (and some other people happy) is much more important for Debians
> >goals than to receive some money or not by google. So, in the end, I
> >think we should decline the offer, because Debian is about the people
> >and their freedom, and not about the money.

I dunno how I missed this, but--

I agree w/ tbm, I don't see the issues as all that problematic.  I find
it disappointing, but not exactly suprising, that alot of the project
members disagree outright at the very notion.  Not very open-minded, in
my view. :)

> I also think it's risky to basically relinquish control of part of the
> content of the Debian website. If Debian were strapped for cash then I think
> this could be sold (at least to me) as a 'necessary evil', but from where I
> sit I don't think that's the case.

I tend to agree that we don't seem to need the money currently, although
I do wonder about the possibility of what we might do with a consistent
dependable revenue stream (debconf trips for Debian, additional obscure
hardware and professional hosting for it).

Stephen


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Re: Google ads on debian.org

[Stephen Frost]

* Lars H. Beuse ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) wrote:
> Those Google Ads are look the way they do. cause they're made for a special 
> target group. So that's just quit a good marketing idea (not new). If you 
> want you could say thats also way to make people think Google is different, 
> they're serious, they're cool and, and and, but they just want to sell, and 
> harden theire market position. A quit subversive Way of separating people 
> from there money. And maybe in some cases textbased ads could be 
> missunderstood as a part of the website.
> 
> I think Google wants to put there ads on Debian to get some kind of 'big 
> clean 
> okay' for there way of doing commercials from another major open source 
> project. Many people will think: Well, if that's okay for debian.org, it will 
> be okay for many others, sooner or later. Not only debian.org will be 
> affected by a decision. 

Sorry, but you're just too funny to think Debian is ahead of the game
for *anything* except architectures (only because they're old) and 
total 'supported' package count.  Google isn't looking for Debian to
validate anything for them, to think otherwise is ridiculous.

Stephen


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Re: Google ads on debian.org

[Stephen Frost]

* Florian Weimer ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) wrote:
> * Stephen Frost:
> > I disagree.  There are ads on postgresql.org and I certainly don't think
> > they make it look like Postgresql is commercial.
> 
> I think it's disappointing.  If this development continues, the only
> ad-free space on the web will be Microsoft's web site, a few obscure
> government sites, and lots of orphaned web pages which haven't been
> updated for years.  (For most users, web ads are much more annoying
> than for us who can apply all kinds of filters to get a relatively
> ad-free (and popup-free!) browsing experience.)

Sorry, most web ads just don't bother me.  Pop-ups bother me, but I
don't think anyone is advocating that.  There's lots of ad-free space,
most commercial sites which aren't ad-supported such as redhat.com,
suse.de, etc, etc.

Stephen


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Re: Google ads on debian.org

[Stephen Frost]

* Alexander Schmehl ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) wrote:
> * martin f krafft <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> [041213 18:14]:
> > more money is always good.
> 
> AFAIK Debian has more money, than we can (usefully) spend (at our
> current rate).  I think that was pointed out just a feek weeks ago in
> the "donate for e-Mail account" discussion.
> 
> I startet to use Debian, because it was not commercial, it was entire
> free, and I'm afraid, this will be the first step in the wrong
> direction.  It will lower our principles, and it will become precedent
> case for our future doing.

This gloom-and-doom prediction is really getting old.  No, it wouldn't
become a precedent, no, it wouldn't lower our principles, no, it's not a
step towards making Debian no longer free.  It's a couple ads on our web
page to bring in a (probably small) revenue stream.  There are a number
of other open source and free software websites which do this, it's not
anything new and it certainly doesn't make you look like a commercial
website, if anything it makes you look like *less* commercial.

Stephen


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Re: Google ads on debian.org

[Stephen Frost]

* Joey Hess ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) wrote:
> Frank Lichtenheld wrote:
> > On Mon, Dec 13, 2004 at 06:35:15PM +0100, Martin Schulze wrote:
> > > I object.  Not by any price we have to pay (and turning www.debian.org
> > > into a commercial page *is* a high price, which could also result in
> > > losing some of our sponsors who provide a mirror of the pages)
> > 
> > Yeah, I think this are two important concerns: The legal implications
> > and the consequences for mirroring the site.
> 
> Let me add one more: Some authors of content on the web site may not want
> to continue to work on a web site that contains ads. (I don't, for example.)

Funny, but you're happy to contribute to a distribution which is
packaged up and sold on store shelves by for-profit organizations?
Which also include some advertising sometimes too I believe?

Stephen


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Re: Google ads on debian.org

[MJ Ray]

On 2004-12-13 19:38:18 + Henrique de Moraes Holschuh 
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:



On Mon, 13 Dec 2004, MJ Ray wrote:
Google has already plagued debian lists (both public and private) 
terribly 
with their Orkut and GMail services. At best, they are no
Google did?  Really?  I could see a lot of *third* parties doing it, 
but no

googleland citizens anywhere.


Please show me a case where Google actually enforced the "Publicity" 
clause of their terms and conditions to close the account of a GMail 
or Orkut invite spammer. Last time I got one (most people learn after 
the first complaint to their postmaster), it only told you how to 
register all your email addresses with a blocklist, which is a 
favourite spammer trick. Google are just more typical invite spammers. 
Boycott Googleware!


--
MJR/slefMy Opinion Only and not of any group I know
 Creative copyleft computing - http://www.ttllp.co.uk/
 Unsolicited attachments to the pipex address deleted
Will HLF fund tree-killings? http://www.thewalks.co.uk/

Re: Google ads on debian.org

[Martin Michlmayr - Debian Project Leader]

* martin f krafft <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> [2004-12-13 18:34]:
> Is there a way for us to get a feel what Google would consider
> relevant? E.g. a page at google.com which would show us some of the
> ads to give us a general feel of how good their selection is?

This is getting a bit off-topic now.  I was told there's a "preview
tool" which will allow you to see what ads would appear if we were
currently running Google's ad program.  It's available at
https://www.google.com/adsense/previewtool#2 but it currently only
supports Internet Explorer.  I pointed out to them already that they
should consider adding support for free software browsers in the
future.
-- 
Martin Michlmayr
[EMAIL PROTECTED]

Re: Google ads on debian.org

[Martin Michlmayr - Debian Project Leader]

* Martin Michlmayr - Debian Project Leader <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> [2004-12-13 
17:08]:
> I received the following message from someone at Google:
[...]
> Normally, I reply to advertising requests on debian.org with a polite
> "no".  However, given that google ads are widely considered different
> to normal ads, and might even enhance a web site, I thought I'd ask on
> -project to see what other people think.

Okay, thanks to everyone who has offered their opinion.  I read
through every response and it seems that there is a fairly clear
consensus.  I will respond to Google that we're not interested in
their offer.
-- 
Martin Michlmayr
[EMAIL PROTECTED]

Re: Google ads on debian.org

[Alexander Schmehl]

* martin f krafft <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> [041213 18:14]:

> more money is always good.

AFAIK Debian has more money, than we can (usefully) spend (at our
current rate).  I think that was pointed out just a feek weeks ago in
the "donate for e-Mail account" discussion.

I startet to use Debian, because it was not commercial, it was entire
free, and I'm afraid, this will be the first step in the wrong
direction.  It will lower our principles, and it will become precedent
case for our future doing.


Yours sincerely,
  Alexander


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Re: Google ads on debian.org

[Alexander Schmehl]

* Stephen Frost <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> [041213 18:53]:

> > Maybe the next offer ist to place ads to the head or footer of each
> > distributed mail on our list server?
> And maybe we can consider each suggestion on a case-by-case basis and
> make a decision on a case-by-case basis.

Or maybe we should just draw a line and say: No ads.

Well... currently I'm realy uncertain.  On the one hand, I'm sure, that
I won't like sponsored ads on debian pages.  On the other hand, we
allready do sponsored advertising, for example if we put sponsor logos
on DVDs or flyers.

Maybe the difference is, that we decide which sponsor we accept for
merchandising stuff, while we can't do that with google ads... well,
just count me to the "no google ads" fraction.


Yours sincerely,
  Alexander



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Re: Google ads on debian.org

[Lars H. Beuse]

On Monday 13 December 2004 21:37, Michelle Konzack wrote:
> Am 2004-12-13 21:22:31, schrieb Florian Weimer:
> > I think it's disappointing.  If this development continues, the only
> > ad-free space on the web will be Microsoft's web site, a few obscure
> > government sites, and lots of orphaned web pages which haven't been
> > updated for years.  (For most users, web ads are much more annoying
> > than for us who can apply all kinds of filters to get a relatively
> > ad-free (and popup-free!) browsing experience.)
>
> Please make a difference between "graphical" Adds which are trying
> to jump into your eyes and this one from Google which are only Text.
>
> I consider this Google-Adds as very discret and not offensive.
>
> Greetings
> Michelle

Those Google Ads are look the way they do. cause they're made for a special 
target group. So that's just quit a good marketing idea (not new). If you 
want you could say thats also way to make people think Google is different, 
they're serious, they're cool and, and and, but they just want to sell, and 
harden theire market position. A quit subversive Way of separating people 
from there money. And maybe in some cases textbased ads could be 
missunderstood as a part of the website.

I think Google wants to put there ads on Debian to get some kind of 'big clean 
okay' for there way of doing commercials from another major open source 
project. Many people will think: Well, if that's okay for debian.org, it will 
be okay for many others, sooner or later. Not only debian.org will be 
affected by a decision. 

 Lars 


-- 
Tue Dec 14 00:58:19 CET 2004

Re: Google ads on debian.org

[Alexander Schmehl]

* Michelle Konzack <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> [041213 21:40]:

> > http://www.google.de/search?as_q=debian%20linux
> > the first link is the "bring out the facts" lie-page by m$.
> OK, but you have used the normal GOOGLE search and
> not tried the Linux-Search-Page from GOOGLE.
> 
> This makes the difference...

No, it does not.  Take a look at this screenshot
http://www.cs.uni-frankfurt.de/~schmehl/temp/google-linux-ms2.png
or try it yourself:
http://www.google.com/linux?hl=de&q=Debian+Linux&btnG=Google-Suche&lr=

First advertisment the MS get the facts, second  Debian Books at Amazon, third
ixsoft (where you can buy Debian) (at least: That's the hits here in
germany).


Yours sincerely,
  Alexander


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RE: Google ads on debian.org

[Pete van der Spoel]

-Original Message-
From: Andreas Barth
To: debian-project@lists.debian.org
Sent: 12/13/04 11:17 PM
Subject: Re: Google ads on debian.org

* Martin Schulze ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) [041213 19:30]:
>> Stephen Frost wrote:
>> > It's not clear to me that having ads would make them 'commercial'.
This
>> > would be something that would have to be run by the appropriate
people
>> > at SPI.  I doubt tbm would have brought it up if it would cause a
>> > problem for the non-profit status of SPI.

>> If you seek to generate income with your website, then it's not a
>> not-for-profit one anymore but a for-profit one and is actually
>> commercial.  Several of our sponsors are universities which have
>> strict profit/non-profit policies.  For sure, my university had
>> to terminate providing a mirror once such advertisments occur.
>> I'm pretty sure about a similar policy in Dresden where the mirror
>> www.de.debian.org is located.

>I personally don't see the issues so problematic as you do. But: A lot
>of (valuable) project members disagree, and, frankly speaking, keeping
>you (and some other people happy) is much more important for Debians
>goals than to receive some money or not by google. So, in the end, I
>think we should decline the offer, because Debian is about the people
>and their freedom, and not about the money.

I think that's a sound decision. 

I also think it's risky to basically relinquish control of part of the
content of the Debian website. If Debian were strapped for cash then I think
this could be sold (at least to me) as a 'necessary evil', but from where I
sit I don't think that's the case.

So a polite no from me too, although you could also suggest they approach
http://www.debianplanet.org/, as they don't seem averse to sponsorship.

--
Pete



 

Re: Google ads on debian.org

[Andreas Barth]

* Martin Schulze ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) [041213 19:30]:
> Stephen Frost wrote:
> > It's not clear to me that having ads would make them 'commercial'.  This
> > would be something that would have to be run by the appropriate people
> > at SPI.  I doubt tbm would have brought it up if it would cause a
> > problem for the non-profit status of SPI.

> If you seek to generate income with your website, then it's not a
> not-for-profit one anymore but a for-profit one and is actually
> commercial.  Several of our sponsors are universities which have
> strict profit/non-profit policies.  For sure, my university had
> to terminate providing a mirror once such advertisments occur.
> I'm pretty sure about a similar policy in Dresden where the mirror
> www.de.debian.org is located.

I personally don't see the issues so problematic as you do. But: A lot
of (valuable) project members disagree, and, frankly speaking, keeping
you (and some other people happy) is much more important for Debians
goals than to receive some money or not by google. So, in the end, I
think we should decline the offer, because Debian is about the people
and their freedom, and not about the money.


Cheers,
Andi
-- 
   http://home.arcor.de/andreas-barth/
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Re: Google ads on debian.org

[Andrew M.A. Cater]

On Mon, Dec 13, 2004 at 06:35:15PM +0100, Martin Schulze wrote:
> 
> I object.  Not by any price we have to pay (and turning www.debian.org
> into a commercial page *is* a high price, which could also result in
> losing some of our sponsors who provide a mirror of the pages)
> 
Thanks Joey, couldn't put it better myself, no matter how I tried :)

Andy

Re: Google ads on debian.org

[David Nusinow]

On Mon, Dec 13, 2004 at 05:08:41PM +, Martin Michlmayr - Debian Project 
Leader wrote:
> I received the following message from someone at Google:
> 
> > Google is interested in advertising on debian.org.  I realize your
> > site currently isn't running any advertising, however what we're
> > proposing is much different, and complimentary to your sites goal.
> 
> Normally, I reply to advertising requests on debian.org with a polite
> "no".  However, given that google ads are widely considered different
> to normal ads, and might even enhance a web site, I thought I'd ask on
> -project to see what other people think.

At first glance I think this is a very bad idea, but I'd be willing to at least
hear what we'd stand to benefit from doing this. As far as I know, we don't
need the money, and could probably benefit more from their sponsorship in other
ways.

 - David Nusinow

Re: Google ads on debian.org

[Joey Hess]

Frank Lichtenheld wrote:
> On Mon, Dec 13, 2004 at 06:35:15PM +0100, Martin Schulze wrote:
> > I object.  Not by any price we have to pay (and turning www.debian.org
> > into a commercial page *is* a high price, which could also result in
> > losing some of our sponsors who provide a mirror of the pages)
> 
> Yeah, I think this are two important concerns: The legal implications
> and the consequences for mirroring the site.

Let me add one more: Some authors of content on the web site may not want
to continue to work on a web site that contains ads. (I don't, for example.)

-- 
see shy jo


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Re: Google ads on debian.org

[martin f krafft]

also sprach Michelle Konzack <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> [2004.12.13.2129 +0100]:
> ...because you use "mozilla" with the "adblock" extension :-)

no, i do not. apart, i don't think adblock does this for google.

-- 
Please do not send copies of list mail to me; I read the list!
 
 .''`. martin f. krafft <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
: :'  :proud Debian developer, admin, user, and author
`. `'`
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Re: Google ads on debian.org

[Michelle Konzack]

Am 2004-12-13 21:30:02, schrieb martin f krafft:

> http://www.google.de/search?as_q=debian%20linux
> 
> the first link is the "bring out the facts" lie-page by m$.

OK, but you have used the normal GOOGLE search and
not tried the Linux-Search-Page from GOOGLE.

This makes the difference...

Greetings
Michelle

-- 
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Re: Google ads on debian.org

[Michelle Konzack]

Am 2004-12-13 21:22:31, schrieb Florian Weimer:

> I think it's disappointing.  If this development continues, the only
> ad-free space on the web will be Microsoft's web site, a few obscure
> government sites, and lots of orphaned web pages which haven't been
> updated for years.  (For most users, web ads are much more annoying
> than for us who can apply all kinds of filters to get a relatively
> ad-free (and popup-free!) browsing experience.)

Please make a difference between "graphical" Adds which are trying
to jump into your eyes and this one from Google which are only Text. 

I consider this Google-Adds as very discret and not offensive.

Greetings
Michelle

-- 
Linux-User #280138 with the Linux Counter, http://counter.li.org/ 
Michelle Konzack   Apt. 917  ICQ #328449886
   50, rue de Soultz MSM LinuxMichi
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Re: Google ads on debian.org

[martin f krafft]

also sprach Michelle Konzack <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> [2004.12.13.2126 +0100]:
> I never have gotten M$-Adds.

http://www.google.de/search?as_q=debian%20linux

the first link is the "bring out the facts" lie-page by m$.

-- 
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 .''`. martin f. krafft <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
: :'  :proud Debian developer, admin, user, and author
`. `'`
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Re: Google ads on debian.org

[Michelle Konzack]

Am 2004-12-13 21:09:07, schrieb martin f krafft:

> what am I doing wrong? If I search for Debian Linux, I get no ads
> whatsoever.

...because you use "mozilla" with the "adblock" extension :-)

I have deactivated the blocking of this adds
because I get realy good stuff...

Greetings
Michelle

-- 
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Re: Google ads on debian.org

[Michelle Konzack]

Am 2004-12-13 21:01:09, schrieb Florian Weimer:

> If I search for "Debian Linux" on Google, a Microsoft ad is displayed
> next to the results.  Maybe this is useful, but I don't think we want
> that on Debian's web pages.

I never have gotten M$-Adds.

Normaly if you use  you will get only
Linux-Related stuff plus Hardware-Sellers and Hosting-Providers...


Greetings
Michelle

-- 
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Re: Google ads on debian.org

[Florian Weimer]

* Stephen Frost:

> I disagree.  There are ads on postgresql.org and I certainly don't think
> they make it look like Postgresql is commercial.

I think it's disappointing.  If this development continues, the only
ad-free space on the web will be Microsoft's web site, a few obscure
government sites, and lots of orphaned web pages which haven't been
updated for years.  (For most users, web ads are much more annoying
than for us who can apply all kinds of filters to get a relatively
ad-free (and popup-free!) browsing experience.)

Re: Google ads on debian.org

[Florian Weimer]

* martin f. krafft:

> also sprach Florian Weimer <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> [2004.12.13.2101 +0100]:
>> If I search for "Debian Linux" on Google, a Microsoft ad is displayed
>> next to the results.  Maybe this is useful, but I don't think we want
>> that on Debian's web pages.
>
> what am I doing wrong? If I search for Debian Linux, I get no ads
> whatsoever.

Apparently, Google geo-targets its ads.  I should have mentioned that
the ad is German. 8-)

Re: Google ads on debian.org

[Marc 'HE' Brockschmidt]

Florian Weimer <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:
> * Martin Michlmayr:
>> Normally, I reply to advertising requests on debian.org with a polite
>> "no".  However, given that google ads are widely considered different
>> to normal ads, and might even enhance a web site, I thought I'd ask on
>> -project to see what other people think.
> It's an incredibly bad idea.

ACK.

Marc
-- 
$_=')(hBCdzVnS})3..0}_$;//::niam/s~=)]3[))_$(rellac(=_$({pam(esrever })e$.)4/3*
)e$(htgnel+23(rhc,"u"(kcapnu ,""nioj ;|_- |/+9-0z-aZ-A|rt~=e$;_$=e${pam tnirp{y
V2ajFGabus} yV2ajFGa&{gwmclBHIbus}gwmclBHI&{yVGa09mbbus}yVGa09mb&{hBCdzVnSbus';
s/\n//g;s/bus/\nbus/g;eval scalar reverse   # 


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Re: Google ads on debian.org

[Florian Weimer]

* Henrique de Moraes Holschuh:

> On Mon, 13 Dec 2004, Florian Weimer wrote:
>> If I search for "Debian Linux" on Google, a Microsoft ad is displayed
>> next to the results.  Maybe this is useful, but I don't think we want
>
> Not here.  Google is doing geographic tailoring of advertisements now?
> (which come to think of it, is quite probable).

Yes, it does.  The ad is German, although I use the English front end
(and get the U.S. results, not the "enhanced" German ones).

Re: Google ads on debian.org

[martin f krafft]

also sprach Florian Weimer <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> [2004.12.13.2101 +0100]:
> If I search for "Debian Linux" on Google, a Microsoft ad is displayed
> next to the results.  Maybe this is useful, but I don't think we want
> that on Debian's web pages.

what am I doing wrong? If I search for Debian Linux, I get no ads
whatsoever.

-- 
Please do not send copies of list mail to me; I read the list!
 
 .''`. martin f. krafft <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
: :'  :proud Debian developer, admin, user, and author
`. `'`
  `-  Debian - when you have better things to do than fixing a system
 
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Re: Google ads on debian.org

[Henrique de Moraes Holschuh]

On Mon, 13 Dec 2004, Florian Weimer wrote:
> If I search for "Debian Linux" on Google, a Microsoft ad is displayed
> next to the results.  Maybe this is useful, but I don't think we want

Not here.  Google is doing geographic tailoring of advertisements now?
(which come to think of it, is quite probable).

-- 
  "One disk to rule them all, One disk to find them. One disk to bring
  them all and in the darkness grind them. In the Land of Redmond
  where the shadows lie." -- The Silicon Valley Tarot
  Henrique Holschuh

Re: Google ads on debian.org

[Florian Weimer]

* Michelle Konzack:

> If I go to  there was many times I have
> found one of the adds after my search results are very useful and it
> was a 100% hit !

If I search for "Debian Linux" on Google, a Microsoft ad is displayed
next to the results.  Maybe this is useful, but I don't think we want
that on Debian's web pages.

Re: Google ads on debian.org

[Florian Weimer]

* Martin Michlmayr:

> Normally, I reply to advertising requests on debian.org with a polite
> "no".  However, given that google ads are widely considered different
> to normal ads, and might even enhance a web site, I thought I'd ask on
> -project to see what other people think.

It's an incredibly bad idea.  I'm sure most ads would either lead to
proprietary software vendors or competing GNU/Linux distributions, or
both (because Google ads are content-driven).

where is counterpunch.org?

[Ncultures]

I went to where is counterpunch.org and all I got is advertising for your projects.

I need my counterpunch.org

please return the website!

Re: Google ads on debian.org

[Henrique de Moraes Holschuh]

On Mon, 13 Dec 2004, MJ Ray wrote:
> On 2004-12-13 17:08:41 + Martin Michlmayr - Debian Project Leader 
> <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Google has already plagued debian lists (both public and private) 
> terribly with their Orkut and GMail services. At best, they are no 

Google did?  Really?  I could see a lot of *third* parties doing it, but no
googleland citizens anywhere.

> different to other commercial endeavours and should be made to follow 
> the same customs as everyone else.

They are more palatable, but not enough IMHO.  Not that I would be terribly
upset if we carried google ads (I wouldn't bother with it).  But it is
probably not worth the hassle.

Unless that means we finally get to expend $$$ in hardware so that we get: a
top-notch email cluster and a nice (as in some very very fast work nodes,
plus the arch-specific nodes that make it not-a-cross-compiler) dist-cc farm
capable of acting as the muscle for all of our autobuilders. And beef up
alioth a lot while at it, too.

-- 
  "One disk to rule them all, One disk to find them. One disk to bring
  them all and in the darkness grind them. In the Land of Redmond
  where the shadows lie." -- The Silicon Valley Tarot
  Henrique Holschuh

Re: Google ads on debian.org

[Stephen Frost]

* Kim ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) wrote:
> First of all I think it is a bad idear based on the fact that it will
> make debian appear commercial. It will look like debian has business
> relations with what ever those ads represents.

I disagree.  There are ads on postgresql.org and I certainly don't think
they make it look like Postgresql is commercial.  In contrast, there are
*lots* of commercial websites that don't run ads except for themselves.
A couple you might be familiar with are redhat.com and
suse.de/novell.com.

Stephen


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Re: Google ads on debian.org

[Kim]

Martin Michlmayr - Debian Project Leader wrote:

I received the following message from someone at Google:



Google is interested in advertising on debian.org.  I realize your
site currently isn't running any advertising, however what we're
proposing is much different, and complimentary to your sites goal.



Normally, I reply to advertising requests on debian.org with a polite
"no".  However, given that google ads are widely considered different
to normal ads, and might even enhance a web site, I thought I'd ask on
-project to see what other people think.



Hi all!

First of all I think it is a bad idear based on the fact that it will
make debian appear commercial. It will look like debian has business
relations with what ever those ads represents.

Second of all it is a well known web designer fact based on usability
tests that most people ignore ads - from google or elsewhere - even ads
on google don't effect people very much. When people search on google
the top result is the ads, or those places on the right side. But most
people jump right down to the right search results - those not paying
anything.

Thirdly it is very important for debian to stay as un-commercial as
possible since this is one of the major differences between Debian and
other GNU/Linux distributions. Ofcourse there are others, but Debian is
known to be 100% maintained by a community of people who voluntary
maintain the system without any commercial interrest affecting the
project. This image could change.

A strong big and polite "no" on my part :-)

Kim

--

Debian GNU/Linux - simple, stable, secure, free and because rebooting is 
for changing hardware only!
Debian GNU/Linux - simpelt, stabilt, sikkert, gratis og fordi genstart 
kun er til for at skifte hardware!

Re: Google ads on debian.org

[Stephen Frost]

* Martin Schulze ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) wrote:
> If you seek to generate income with your website, then it's not a
> not-for-profit one anymore but a for-profit one and is actually
> commercial.  Several of our sponsors are universities which have
> strict profit/non-profit policies.  For sure, my university had
> to terminate providing a mirror once such advertisments occur.
> I'm pretty sure about a similar policy in Dresden where the mirror
> www.de.debian.org is located.

Bringing in money, however it is done, does not mean you're for-profit
or not-for-profit.  Your concern about mirrors is valid and should be
pursued and considered, so how about we do that instead of waving hands
and saying what might happen.  Indeed, it might make some sense to have
a policy regarding what will be on master so that our mirrors understand
what they're getting in to.  This would likely involve such gems as
"master is in the US and therefore the laws of the US are what govern
what's on it and these laws may allow for content not legal in your
country."  I think this is actually implicit to some extent already, but
it wouldn't hurt to have it spelled out.  As has been mentioned
elsewhere, it's technically possible to perhaps work around some of
these issues by, say, having 'with ads' and 'without ads' directories
and allowing the mirrors to decide if they're willing to help support
SPI/Debian or not through the ads.

Stephen


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Re: Google ads on debian.org

[John Hasler]

Stephen writes:
> This would be something that would have to be run by the appropriate
> people at SPI.  I doubt tbm would have brought it up if it would cause a
> problem for the non-profit status of SPI.

I don't think it would cause a problem for the non-profit status of SPI,
but I think that the income would have to be reported as unrelated business
income and would be taxable.

Mirror policies are another matter.  In any case, I'm opposed to it unless
we really need the money.
-- 
John Hasler

Re: Google ads on debian.org

[MJ Ray]

On 2004-12-13 17:08:41 + Martin Michlmayr - Debian Project Leader 
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:



Normally, I reply to advertising requests on debian.org with a polite
"no".  However, given that google ads are widely considered different


Google has already plagued debian lists (both public and private) 
terribly with their Orkut and GMail services. At best, they are no 
different to other commercial endeavours and should be made to follow 
the same customs as everyone else.


Therefore, I think your answer should be a polite "no" in this case 
too. I await hearing about further developments through this list with 
interest.


--
MJR/slefMy Opinion Only and not of any group I know
 Creative copyleft computing - http://www.ttllp.co.uk/
 Unsolicited attachments to the pipex address deleted
Will HLF fund tree-killings? http://www.thewalks.co.uk/

Re: Google ads on debian.org

[Chris Waters]

On Mon, Dec 13, 2004 at 05:08:41PM +, Martin Michlmayr - Debian Project 
Leader wrote:

> Normally, I reply to advertising requests on debian.org with a polite
> "no".  However, given that google ads are widely considered different
> to normal ads, and might even enhance a web site, I thought I'd ask on
> -project to see what other people think.

Is it even allowed for a non-profit to run ads for profit?  I admit
that a small part of me is curious what ads would come up, but
another, larger part of me says that this is just a bad idea.  At the
very least, we should run it by the lawyers before taking any such
action, and even if they say it's ok (and won't jeopardize SPI's
non-profit status), I would still be very reluctant to take such a
step.  It seems like a bad precedent.

-- 
Chris Waters   |  Pneumonoultra-osis is too long
[EMAIL PROTECTED]   |  microscopicsilico-to fit into a single
or [EMAIL PROTECTED] |  volcaniconi-  standalone haiku

Re: Google ads on debian.org

[Michelle Konzack]

Good evening Martin and *,

If I go to  there was many times I have
found one of the adds after my search results are very useful and it
was a 100% hit !

I have found Distributors of Specialhardware supported by linux an
many things else. I use Google-Adds which search function on some of
my Web-Pages and I have already tried it myself. 

I do not know "HOW" Google do this, but it works perfectly.

Greetings
Michelle


Am 2004-12-13 17:27:15, schrieb Martin Michlmayr - Debian Project Leader:
> * Martin Michlmayr - Debian Project Leader <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> [2004-12-13 
> 17:08]:
> > Normally, I reply to advertising requests on debian.org with a polite
> > "no".  However, given that google ads are widely considered different
> > to normal ads, and might even enhance a web site, I thought I'd ask on
> > -project to see what other people think.
> 
> Michael Banck pointed out on IRC that I should explain what google ads
> actually are.  The basic idea behind google ads is that you don't
> simply show random ads, but ads which fit in very well with the
> contents of the page - therefore, the likehood that the ad is of
> relevance to the view ofer the page is quite high.
> 
> More information can be found at https://www.google.com/adsense/
> 
> Let me quote one paragraph which summarizes it fairly well:
> 
>  | When your content changes, so do your ads.
> 
>  | Google AdSense technology goes beyond simple keyword or category
>  | matching. We work hard to understand your content and deliver ads that
>  | are precisely targeted to specific pages, automatically, no matter how
>  | many thousands of pages your site may have, or how specialised or
>  | broad your content. As your content changes, Google's ads change to
>  | match.
> 
> -- 
> Martin Michlmayr
> [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> 
> 
> -- 
> To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> 
- ENE OF REPLYED MESSAGE -


-- 
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Michelle Konzack   Apt. 917  ICQ #328449886
   50, rue de Soultz MSM LinuxMichi
0033/3/8845235667100 Strasbourg/France   IRC #Debian (irc.icq.com)


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Re: Google ads on debian.org

[Martin Schulze]

Stephen Frost wrote:
> It's not clear to me that having ads would make them 'commercial'.  This
> would be something that would have to be run by the appropriate people
> at SPI.  I doubt tbm would have brought it up if it would cause a
> problem for the non-profit status of SPI.

If you seek to generate income with your website, then it's not a
not-for-profit one anymore but a for-profit one and is actually
commercial.  Several of our sponsors are universities which have
strict profit/non-profit policies.  For sure, my university had
to terminate providing a mirror once such advertisments occur.
I'm pretty sure about a similar policy in Dresden where the mirror
www.de.debian.org is located.

Regards,

Joey

-- 
Reading is a lost art nowadays.  -- Michael Weber

Re: Google ads on debian.org

[Frank Lichtenheld]

On Mon, Dec 13, 2004 at 06:35:15PM +0100, Martin Schulze wrote:
> I object.  Not by any price we have to pay (and turning www.debian.org
> into a commercial page *is* a high price, which could also result in
> losing some of our sponsors who provide a mirror of the pages)

Yeah, I think this are two important concerns: The legal implications
and the consequences for mirroring the site.

Gruesse,
-- 
Frank Lichtenheld <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
www: http://www.djpig.de/

Re: Google ads on debian.org

[Stephen Frost]

* Martin Schulze ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) wrote:
> Honestly, I cannot imagine a reason, why the Debian projects should
> turn their web pages into commercial web pages by adding Google ads
> to them.

It's not clear to me that having ads would make them 'commercial'.  This
would be something that would have to be run by the appropriate people
at SPI.  I doubt tbm would have brought it up if it would cause a
problem for the non-profit status of SPI.

> Maybe the next offer ist to place ads to the head or footer of each
> distributed mail on our list server?

And maybe we can consider each suggestion on a case-by-case basis and
make a decision on a case-by-case basis.

Stephen


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Re: Google ads on debian.org

[Martin Schulze]

Martin Michlmayr - Debian Project Leader wrote:
> * Martin Michlmayr - Debian Project Leader <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> [2004-12-13 
> 17:08]:
> > Normally, I reply to advertising requests on debian.org with a polite
> > "no".  However, given that google ads are widely considered different
> > to normal ads, and might even enhance a web site, I thought I'd ask on
> > -project to see what other people think.
> 
> Michael Banck pointed out on IRC that I should explain what google ads
> actually are.  The basic idea behind google ads is that you don't
> simply show random ads, but ads which fit in very well with the
> contents of the page - therefore, the likehood that the ad is of
> relevance to the view ofer the page is quite high.
> 
> More information can be found at https://www.google.com/adsense/
> 
> Let me quote one paragraph which summarizes it fairly well:
> 
>  | When your content changes, so do your ads.
> 
>  | Google AdSense technology goes beyond simple keyword or category
>  | matching. We work hard to understand your content and deliver ads that
>  | are precisely targeted to specific pages, automatically, no matter how
>  | many thousands of pages your site may have, or how specialised or
>  | broad your content. As your content changes, Google's ads change to
>  | match.

Honestly, I cannot imagine a reason, why the Debian projects should
turn their web pages into commercial web pages by adding Google ads
to them.

Maybe the next offer ist to place ads to the head or footer of each
distributed mail on our list server?

Regards,

Joey

-- 
Reading is a lost art nowadays.  -- Michael Weber

Re: Google ads on debian.org

[Stephen Frost]

* Martin Michlmayr - Debian Project Leader ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) wrote:
> I received the following message from someone at Google:
> > Google is interested in advertising on debian.org.  I realize your
> > site currently isn't running any advertising, however what we're
> > proposing is much different, and complimentary to your sites goal.
> 
> Normally, I reply to advertising requests on debian.org with a polite
> "no".  However, given that google ads are widely considered different
> to normal ads, and might even enhance a web site, I thought I'd ask on
> -project to see what other people think.

Personally, I like the idea.  I don't think it harms our image any and I
think it's a good potential revenue stream.

Stephen


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Re: Google ads on debian.org

[Martin Schulze]

Martin Michlmayr - Debian Project Leader wrote:
> I received the following message from someone at Google:
> 
> > Google is interested in advertising on debian.org.  I realize your
> > site currently isn't running any advertising, however what we're
> > proposing is much different, and complimentary to your sites goal.
> 
> Normally, I reply to advertising requests on debian.org with a polite
> "no".  However, given that google ads are widely considered different
> to normal ads, and might even enhance a web site, I thought I'd ask on
> -project to see what other people think.

I'd rather use Google instead of the defunct search.debian.org
That would be advertising for Google as well.

Regards,

Joey

-- 
Reading is a lost art nowadays.  -- Michael Weber

Re: Google ads on debian.org

[Martin Schulze]

martin f krafft wrote:
> also sprach Martin Michlmayr - Debian Project Leader <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> 
> [2004.12.13.1808 +0100]:
> > Normally, I reply to advertising requests on debian.org with
> > a polite "no".  However, given that google ads are widely
> > considered different to normal ads, and might even enhance a web
> > site, I thought I'd ask on -project to see what other people
> > think.
> 
> What's in it for us? If it's pay-per-click... I don't think it is
> worth the real estate as visitors of debian.org probably just plain
> out ignore ads. If it's pay-per-view, then by all means... more
> money is always good.

I object.  Not by any price we have to pay (and turning www.debian.org
into a commercial page *is* a high price, which could also result in
losing some of our sponsors who provide a mirror of the pages)

Regards,

Joey

-- 
Reading is a lost art nowadays.  -- Michael Weber

Re: Google ads on debian.org

[Amaya]

martin f krafft wrote:
> at the same time, i must add that i do not think we should allow
> them. after all, why should google get to decide what might be
> related?

It may point clueless users in the right dueling banjos direction :)


-- 
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: :' :   -- Pearl Jam. Black
`. `'  Proudly running Debian GNU/Linux (Sid 2.6.8 Ext3)  
  `-   www.amayita.com  www.malapecora.com  www.chicasduras.com

Re: Google ads on debian.org

[martin f krafft]

also sprach Martin Michlmayr - Debian Project Leader <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> 
[2004.12.13.1827 +0100]:
> Michael Banck pointed out on IRC that I should explain what google ads
> actually are.  The basic idea behind google ads is that you don't
> simply show random ads, but ads which fit in very well with the
> contents of the page - therefore, the likehood that the ad is of
> relevance to the view ofer the page is quite high.

Is there a way for us to get a feel what Google would consider
relevant? E.g. a page at google.com which would show us some of the
ads to give us a general feel of how good their selection is?

If there are plenty ads of service providers that endorse Debian,
I could actually see a benefit...

-- 
Please do not send copies of list mail to me; I read the list!
 
 .''`. martin f. krafft <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
: :'  :proud Debian developer, admin, user, and author
`. `'`
  `-  Debian - when you have better things to do than fixing a system
 
Invalid/expired PGP subkeys? Use subkeys.pgp.net as keyserver!


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Re: Google ads on debian.org

[John H. Robinson, IV]

Martin Michlmayr - Debian Project Leader wrote:
> I received the following message from someone at Google:
> 
> > Google is interested in advertising on debian.org.  I realize your
> > site currently isn't running any advertising, however what we're
> > proposing is much different, and complimentary to your sites goal.
> 
> Normally, I reply to advertising requests on debian.org with a polite
> "no".  However, given that google ads are widely considered different
> to normal ads, and might even enhance a web site, I thought I'd ask on
> -project to see what other people think.

I would voice my objection to it. Do we really need the revenue stream?
Do we need to look like every other starving .com site?

I really think that having a google ad on our site would give the
entirely wrong impression to a visitor. That stated, I am willing to
listen to what they have, especially since they say it is different and
complimentary to our site goals.

-- 
John H. Robinson, IV  [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 http  
WARNING: I cannot be held responsible for the above, sbih.org ( )(:[
as apparently my cats have learned how to type.  spiders.html  


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Re: Google ads on debian.org

[Martin Michlmayr - Debian Project Leader]

* Martin Michlmayr - Debian Project Leader <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> [2004-12-13 
17:08]:
> Normally, I reply to advertising requests on debian.org with a polite
> "no".  However, given that google ads are widely considered different
> to normal ads, and might even enhance a web site, I thought I'd ask on
> -project to see what other people think.

Michael Banck pointed out on IRC that I should explain what google ads
actually are.  The basic idea behind google ads is that you don't
simply show random ads, but ads which fit in very well with the
contents of the page - therefore, the likehood that the ad is of
relevance to the view ofer the page is quite high.

More information can be found at https://www.google.com/adsense/

Let me quote one paragraph which summarizes it fairly well:

 | When your content changes, so do your ads.

 | Google AdSense technology goes beyond simple keyword or category
 | matching. We work hard to understand your content and deliver ads that
 | are precisely targeted to specific pages, automatically, no matter how
 | many thousands of pages your site may have, or how specialised or
 | broad your content. As your content changes, Google's ads change to
 | match.

-- 
Martin Michlmayr
[EMAIL PROTECTED]

Re: Google ads on debian.org

[David Moreno Garza]

On Mon, 2004-12-13 at 17:08 +, Martin Michlmayr - Debian Project
Leader wrote:
> I received the following message from someone at Google:
> 
> > Google is interested in advertising on debian.org.  I realize your
> > site currently isn't running any advertising, however what we're
> > proposing is much different, and complimentary to your sites goal.
> 
> Normally, I reply to advertising requests on debian.org with a polite
> "no".  However, given that google ads are widely considered different
> to normal ads, and might even enhance a web site, I thought I'd ask on
> -project to see what other people think.

What would be the real benefit for the Debian project showing these
advertisements on the website? How would that enhance the website?

--
David Moreno Garza <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> | http://www.damog.net/
 Women need a reason to have sex, men just need a place.

Re: Google ads on debian.org

[martin f krafft]

also sprach martin f krafft <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> [2004.12.13.1814 +0100]:
> What's in it for us? If it's pay-per-click... I don't think it is
> worth the real estate as visitors of debian.org probably just
> plain out ignore ads. If it's pay-per-view, then by all means...
> more money is always good.

at the same time, i must add that i do not think we should allow
them. after all, why should google get to decide what might be
related? given the history of google, we are opening us up to
manipulation. we are debian, we have always been careful what to
endorse and what not (rather the latter, staying on the safe side).
haveing ads on the page might suggest that we endorse products that
google suggests.

-- 
Please do not send copies of list mail to me; I read the list!
 
 .''`. martin f. krafft <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
: :'  :proud Debian developer, admin, user, and author
`. `'`
  `-  Debian - when you have better things to do than fixing a system
 
Invalid/expired PGP subkeys? Use subkeys.pgp.net as keyserver!


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Re: Google ads on debian.org

[Andrew Suffield]

On Mon, Dec 13, 2004 at 05:08:41PM +, Martin Michlmayr - Debian Project 
Leader wrote:
> I received the following message from someone at Google:
> 
> > Google is interested in advertising on debian.org.  I realize your
> > site currently isn't running any advertising, however what we're
> > proposing is much different, and complimentary to your sites goal.
> 
> Normally, I reply to advertising requests on debian.org with a polite
> "no".  However, given that google ads are widely considered different
> to normal ads, and might even enhance a web site, I thought I'd ask on
> -project to see what other people think.

I can't imagine what we'd use the money for, and it'd just be more
bandwidth consumption for stupid users (personally, I blocked google
ads a long time ago). Where would be the point?

-- 
  .''`.  ** Debian GNU/Linux ** | Andrew Suffield
 : :' :  http://www.debian.org/ |
 `. `'  |
   `- -><-  |


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Re: Google ads on debian.org

[martin f krafft]

also sprach Martin Michlmayr - Debian Project Leader <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> 
[2004.12.13.1808 +0100]:
> Normally, I reply to advertising requests on debian.org with
> a polite "no".  However, given that google ads are widely
> considered different to normal ads, and might even enhance a web
> site, I thought I'd ask on -project to see what other people
> think.

What's in it for us? If it's pay-per-click... I don't think it is
worth the real estate as visitors of debian.org probably just plain
out ignore ads. If it's pay-per-view, then by all means... more
money is always good.

-- 
Please do not send copies of list mail to me; I read the list!
 
 .''`. martin f. krafft <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
: :'  :proud Debian developer, admin, user, and author
`. `'`
  `-  Debian - when you have better things to do than fixing a system
 
Invalid/expired PGP subkeys? Use subkeys.pgp.net as keyserver!


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Google ads on debian.org

[Martin Michlmayr - Debian Project Leader]

I received the following message from someone at Google:

> Google is interested in advertising on debian.org.  I realize your
> site currently isn't running any advertising, however what we're
> proposing is much different, and complimentary to your sites goal.

Normally, I reply to advertising requests on debian.org with a polite
"no".  However, given that google ads are widely considered different
to normal ads, and might even enhance a web site, I thought I'd ask on
-project to see what other people think.

-- 
Martin Michlmayr
[EMAIL PROTECTED]

Re: http://www.counterpunch.org/

[Don Armstrong]

On Sun, 12 Dec 2004, Jolanta Piorko wrote:
> What the fuck is going on; is it your url? -
> http://www.counterpunch.org/ if not get the fuck out of there

If you had actually bothered to read the page that was present on
www.counterpunch.org instead of randomly e-mailing us, you would have
realized that Debian has nothing to do with that machine besides the
fact that someone has installed Debian on it and hasn't yet configured
it properly:

This computer has installed the Debian GNU/Linux operating system
but has nothing to do with the Debian GNU/Linux project. If you
want to report something about this host's behavior or domain,
please contact the ISPs involved directly, not the Debian Project.

See the Network Abuse Clearinghouse for how to do this. 

If you have further questions about what Debian actually is, please
visit http://www.debian.org/


Don Armstrong

-- 
This space intentionally left blank.

http://www.donarmstrong.com  http://rzlab.ucr.edu