Re: Ubuntu/Debian cooperation [was: Complaint about #debian operator]

[Michael Banck]

On Thu, Dec 15, 2005 at 01:06:51PM +1100, Matthew Palmer wrote:
> There's "I screwed up because I made a mistake", and there's "I screwed up
> because I don't actually know what I'm doing", but "I screwed up because I
> didn't care about doing a quality job" is on a whole other level.

I have much sympathies for the two-dozen-odd MOTUs which are supposed to
maintain the 1-odd packages in universe without much help in order
to make the whole distribution shine - we should cut them some slack,
IMHO.


Michael

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Re: Ubuntu/Debian cooperation [was: Complaint about #debian operator]

[Matthew Palmer]

On Wed, Dec 14, 2005 at 01:57:12PM +, Roger Leigh wrote:
> I don't disagree.  I would much rather every ubuntu change had a
> corresponding patch filed in the BTS,

Every "relevant" change put into the BTS would be nice, yes.  Filing
everything in the BTS would result in a lot of "patch,wontfix" bugs in some
packages.  There's also issues with making sure that patches in the BTS
don't depend on other patches provided previously, as the longer the
packages have been diverging, the more layers-upon-layers of changes will
build up.

> OTOH, I've seen a number of ubuntu patches which were blatantly wrong,
> where the maintainer clearly didn't grok the package they were changing.

*This* irritates me mightily.  The reason, as given by a MOTU when I asked
about why a change was made in a fairly substandard manner, was "there
aren't enough MOTUs to do all the work, so we don't have time to understand
the package, we can only fix the immediate problem".  (Paraphrased, but I
can dig up the exact conversation from my (public channel) IRC log if anyone
thinks I've given a wrong impression).

There's "I screwed up because I made a mistake", and there's "I screwed up
because I don't actually know what I'm doing", but "I screwed up because I
didn't care about doing a quality job" is on a whole other level.

- Matt


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Re: Debian on one dvd?

[Siward de Groot]

On Thursday 15 December 2005 00:04, Benjamin Seidenberg wrote:
> IIRC, the sources have to be distributed in the same medium (Optical).
> It's easy to see why, someone could install off a DVD and not have
> internet access (or sufficient bandwidth) to be able to download the
> sources, and they are entitled to the sources too...thus optical
> distribution is a necessity.

Hi Benjamin, and list,
As far as i understand it, need to distribute sources comes from GPL,
  which reads, as it's third condition :

-
  3. You may copy and distribute the Program (or a work based on it,
  under Section 2) in object code or executable form under the terms of
  Sections 1 and 2 above provided that you also do one of the following:

a) Accompany it with the complete corresponding machine-readable
source code, which must be distributed under the terms of Sections
1 and 2 above on a medium customarily used for software interchange; or,

b) Accompany it with a written offer, valid for at least three
years, to give any third party, for a charge no more than your
cost of physically performing source distribution, a complete
machine-readable copy of the corresponding source code, to be
distributed under the terms of Sections 1 and 2 above on a medium
customarily used for software interchange; or,

c) Accompany it with the information you received as to the offer
to distribute corresponding source code.  (This alternative is
allowed only for noncommercial distribution and only if you
received the program in object code or executable form with such
an offer, in accord with Subsection b above.)

  The source code for a work means 

  If distribution of executable or object code is made by offering
  access to copy from a designated place, then offering equivalent
  access to copy the source code from the same place counts as
  distribution of the source code, even though third parties are not
  compelled to copy the source along with the object code.
-
 
Here i think clause b) is sufficient,
   as info on debian servers is machine-readable,
   and the internet is a medium customarily used for software interchange.
So clause c) is not needed.
Last paragraph is not applicable, and though it gives impression that
  'offering access' is only OK if binaries were gotten from same place,
  it does not actually state that, so we are not bound by that.

And in case you don't agree with that, clause c) can be used,
  as all packages on this DVD come from a Debian release,
  which was gotten with an offer to distribute source,
  and you only redistribute (unmodified) from that distribution,
  so pointing to debian.org's servers is explicitly OK.


have fun !

  Siward
  (home.wanadoo.nl/siward)


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Re: Debian on one dvd?

[Benjamin Seidenberg]

Siward de Groot wrote:


On Wednesday 14 December 2005 15:46, Jaldhar H. Vyas wrote:
 


Also the stock image does not include source code correct?  Then how do we
meet the conditions of the GPL?  I don't think the written offer option is
feasible for the publishers (though I'll ask to make sure.)
   



Well, Debian could offer to take care of that for them...
Then they only need to include a written offer that
 the source can be downloaded from debian.org .
If they're shipping Sarge, then the sources will be available for a long time.

have fun !

 Siward de Groot
 (home.wanadoo.nl/siward)


 


IIRC, the sources have to be distributed in the same medium (Optical).
It's easy to see why, someone could install off a DVD and not have
internet access (or sufficient bandwidth) to be able to download the
sources, and they are entitled to the sources too...thus optical
distribution is a necessity.

Cheers,
Benjamin



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Re: Debian Linux at German Department of State

[martin f krafft]

also sprach Andre Felipe Machado <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> [2005.12.14.2254 +0100]:
> I am collecting some high profile success cases of Debian and Linux at
> my brazilian portuguese blog page:
> 
> http://www.techforce.com.br/index.php/news/linux_blog/casos_de_sucesso_com_linux

If you polished this up, I think we should include this over at
www.debian.org -- a success story type of thing.
www.debian.org/users does a little, but it would be cool to have
stories with greater detail.

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Debian Linux at German Department of State

[Andre Felipe Machado]

Hello,
I browsed by the lists.debian.org and still not sure if this
debian-project is the right list to post this msg. If not, please let me
know the correct one.

Does anyone have more information about 
" According to the printed version of German Linux Magazin, January 2006
edition, the German Department of State recently completed the switch of
2.500 desktops from Windows XP to Debian Linux without any noise. This
fits to the strategy of Department of State to route all network traffic
from and to the German embassies via Linux servers which are all
certified for “Top Secret” messaging. "

showed at the site: 
http://vale.homelinux.net/wordpress/?p=46

I am collecting some high profile success cases of Debian and Linux at
my brazilian portuguese blog page:

http://www.techforce.com.br/index.php/news/linux_blog/casos_de_sucesso_com_linux

Automated google english translation:
http://translate.google.com/translate?u=http%3A%2F%
2Fwww.techforce.com.br%2Findex.php%2Fnews%2Flinux_blog%
2Fcasos_de_sucesso_com_linux&langpair=pt%
7Cen&hl=pt-BR&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&prev=%2Flanguage_tools

The sucess cases deserves publicity. They motivate users.
Thanks.
Andre Felipe



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Re: Debian on one dvd?

[Alexander Schmehl]

Hi!

* Lars Wirzenius <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> [051214 14:23]:

> > Unless there are specific packages missing from disk 1 that you know are
> > needed for this market, the stock ISO seems like it would be fine.
> Out of curiousity, how do these magazines deal with distributing
> sources?

Don't know how they do it, but for the Knoppix CDs I made for the
university, I usally keep the used source on extra discs in case someone
asks for them.  There is a note, that people can contact us if they like
them.


Yours sincerely,
  Alexander

-- 
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http://www.catb.org/~esr/faqs/smart-questions.html


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Re: Debian on one dvd?

[Siward de Groot]

On Wednesday 14 December 2005 15:46, Jaldhar H. Vyas wrote:
> Also the stock image does not include source code correct?  Then how do we
> meet the conditions of the GPL?  I don't think the written offer option is
> feasible for the publishers (though I'll ask to make sure.)

Well, Debian could offer to take care of that for them...
Then they only need to include a written offer that
  the source can be downloaded from debian.org .
If they're shipping Sarge, then the sources will be available for a long time.

have fun !

  Siward de Groot
  (home.wanadoo.nl/siward)


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Re: Debian on one dvd?

[Joe Smith]

"Jaldhar H. Vyas" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote in message 
news:[EMAIL PROTECTED]

On Wed, 14 Dec 2005, Steve Langasek wrote:

Why not just use the stock DVD 1 image?  As always, packages are sorted 
on

the disk images according to criteria like package priority and popcon
numbers, so probably ought to be 99% or more of the packages that 99% of 
the

users will need.

Unless there are specific packages missing from disk 1 that you know are
needed for this market, the stock ISO seems like it would be fine.



well there is that.  The Indian fonts and things seem to be on DVD 2. Also 
the stock image does not include source code correct?  Then how do we meet 
the conditions of the GPL?  I don't think the written offer option is 
feasible for the publishers (though I'll ask to make sure.)


It is probably legal for them to hire somebody/something else to send source 
cds on request. Then they just have the message give the adress of the other 
entity. Note that the magazine would still be legal responsable for ensuring 
that the discs are shipped, so the entity that ships the sources would need 
to be under contract.
Also note that some software may be under a licence that does not allow this 
form of distribution.


Let us assume for now that sources are ot an issue.
Most archs fit on 2 dvds, so a single double sided disk would work fine, as 
long as people can understand the names disk one and disk two refer to 
different sides, and can figure out which side is which.



Anyway perhaps the best solution (if possible, I assume these are pressed 
disks, not burned disks) is a double sided dual-layer disk. One side would 
have (nearly all) the packages from disks 1 and 2, and the other side would 
have (the same nearly all) the sources.

However, such disks are expensive.





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Re: snapshot.d.n (was: Complaint about #debian operator)

[Andreas Schuldei]

* martin f krafft <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> [2005-12-14 12:10:30]:

> also sprach Michael Banck <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> [2005.12.14.1142 +0100]:
> > I believe this is due to snapshot.d.n having lost a considerable
> > amount of its archive.  As those patches were generated from the
> > packages
> 
> ... this makes me wonder why Canonical has not stepped in to support
> snapshot.d.n. Fumitoshi is doing a great job, but s.d.n is beocming
> more and more difficult to handle, and apparently more and more
> mission critical.
> 
> I have tried several times in the past to do something to help
> Fumitoshi, most recently speaking to switch.ch about
> mirroring/hosting. However, the endeavour failed due to lack of
> funds. If s.d.n is used by Canonical to meet up to their promise to
> give back to Debian, maybe they should consider providing these
> funds?

actually, NetApp (the storage company) and Intel (the chip
manufacture) are solving this problem for us. we get a 7 or
10Tbyte storage from NetApp and two beefy servers to use as a
front end for both CD/DVD generation and serving of CDs/DVDs as
well as the debian meetings archive and other free software.
Snapshot.d.o would end up on this storage server (cluster?), too. 

it will be located in Umeå, Sweden, where we will try to saturate
the 2Gbits uplink with it. That site is run by the academic
computer club of the local university, with Michael Wadenstein as
the local admin.

Thanks again to the sponsors.


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Re: [Debian-in-workers] Debian on one dvd?

[Jaldhar H. Vyas]

On Wed, 14 Dec 2005, Christian Perrier wrote:



Jaldhar, do you think that, in addition to giving Debian DVD's they
could feature an article or interview about Debian in general and more
particularly the current big energy put in supporting languages from
India in Debian, as well as the very specific focus we put on India
and South Asia in general?

That could be an interview of some Debian contributors from the
countryor some of us in a more general way.

Maybe involve our beloved DPL (CC'ed) also�?



Yes, they also expressed an interest in more articles on Debian-related 
topics too and I'm sure a message from Branden would be very welcome. 
Maybe they can make Debian the theme of the February issue.  I'll ask.


--
Jaldhar H. Vyas <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
La Salle Debain - http://www.braincells.com/debian/

Re: [Debian-in-workers] Re: Debian on one dvd?

[Jaldhar H. Vyas]

On Wed, 14 Dec 2005, Christian Perrier wrote:


So has anyone done anything like this before?


Yes. I did that for Linuxtag and Cebit. Actually I had a multiboot DVD,
booting i386, amd64 and powerpc.




I think I have one of these.  Let me try and find it.  Something like that 
would be quite a nice advertisement for Debians' power and breadth.





So, instead of reinventing a well-designed wheel, I suggest Jaldhar to
point the magazine editor to this DVD image. With very few
modifications (maybe some "germanisation" here or there), it could be
well-suited.


The publishers made it clear they did not want to do any work on it 
beyond duplication so we need to check it out first.  We also have to make 
sure it has the Indic-related packages on it.


--
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La Salle Debain - http://www.braincells.com/debian/


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Re: Debian on one dvd?

[Jaldhar H. Vyas]

On Wed, 14 Dec 2005, Lars Wirzenius wrote:


ke, 2005-12-14 kello 01:05 -0800, Steve Langasek kirjoitti:

Unless there are specific packages missing from disk 1 that you know are
needed for this market, the stock ISO seems like it would be fine.


Out of curiousity, how do these magazines deal with distributing
sources?




Um, mostly they don't. So we have to set a good example and show them how 
it's supposed to be done.


--
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La Salle Debain - http://www.braincells.com/debian/


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Re: Debian on one dvd?

[Jaldhar H. Vyas]

On Wed, 14 Dec 2005, Steve Langasek wrote:


Why not just use the stock DVD 1 image?  As always, packages are sorted on
the disk images according to criteria like package priority and popcon
numbers, so probably ought to be 99% or more of the packages that 99% of the
users will need.

Unless there are specific packages missing from disk 1 that you know are
needed for this market, the stock ISO seems like it would be fine.



well there is that.  The Indian fonts and things seem to be on DVD 2. 
Also the stock image does not include source code correct?  Then how do we 
meet the conditions of the GPL?  I don't think the written offer option is 
feasible for the publishers (though I'll ask to make sure.)


--
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La Salle Debain - http://www.braincells.com/debian/


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Re: Complaint about #debian operator

[Roger Leigh]

-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Hash: SHA1

Steve Langasek <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:

> On Tue, Dec 13, 2005 at 11:29:14AM -0800, Russ Allbery wrote:
>> Andrew Suffield <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:
>> > On Mon, Dec 12, 2005 at 12:55:22PM +, Roger Leigh wrote:
>
>> >> This says you are wrong:
>> >> 
>> >>   http://people.ubuntu.com/~scott/patches/
>
>> > So if I were to diff the Debian archive against the Fedora one, I'd be
>> > contributing to Fedora? Cool! That'll bolster my CV a bit.
>
>> If Fedora were using the same packaging system so that the packaging diffs
>> were meaningful, you separated out the diffs for the upstream source and
>> the diffs for packaging, and you continued doing this on a regular basis
>> so that Fedora maintainers could see what changes were made in Debian that
>> they might be interested... yes, you would indeed be contributing to
>> Fedora.
>
> As absurd as Andrew's comparison may seem, the diffs distributed from
> http://people.ubuntu.com/~scott/patches/ are pretty underwhelming as far as
> "contributing back to Debian" is concerned.

I don't disagree.  I would much rather every ubuntu change had a
corresponding patch filed in the BTS, but I have found it useful a
couple of times in the past.  OTOH, I've seen a number of ubuntu
patches which were blatantly wrong, where the maintainer clearly
didn't grok the package they were changing.


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Re: Debian on one dvd?

[Lars Wirzenius]

ke, 2005-12-14 kello 01:05 -0800, Steve Langasek kirjoitti:
> Unless there are specific packages missing from disk 1 that you know are
> needed for this market, the stock ISO seems like it would be fine.

Out of curiousity, how do these magazines deal with distributing
sources?

-- 
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snapshot.d.n (was: Complaint about #debian operator)

[martin f krafft]

also sprach Michael Banck <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> [2005.12.14.1142 +0100]:
> I believe this is due to snapshot.d.n having lost a considerable
> amount of its archive.  As those patches were generated from the
> packages

... this makes me wonder why Canonical has not stepped in to support
snapshot.d.n. Fumitoshi is doing a great job, but s.d.n is beocming
more and more difficult to handle, and apparently more and more
mission critical.

I have tried several times in the past to do something to help
Fumitoshi, most recently speaking to switch.ch about
mirroring/hosting. However, the endeavour failed due to lack of
funds. If s.d.n is used by Canonical to meet up to their promise to
give back to Debian, maybe they should consider providing these
funds?

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Re: Complaint about #debian operator

[Michael Banck]

On Wed, Dec 14, 2005 at 01:29:21AM -0800, Steve Langasek wrote:
> As absurd as Andrew's comparison may seem, the diffs distributed from
> http://people.ubuntu.com/~scott/patches/ are pretty underwhelming as far as
> "contributing back to Debian" is concerned.  Last time I poked at a package
> diff there, IIRC the site showed me the diff against the last official sync
> point with sid, *not* a -- so instead of looking at what Ubuntu had changed,
> I was looking at n months of the Debian package's own diffs, plus the bits
> changed by Ubuntu, all thrown in together. :/

I believe this is due to snapshot.d.n having lost a considerable amount
of its archive.  As those patches were generated from the packages
there, they're now diffed against /dev/null basically.  At least, that's
what I heard as explanation for these symptoms some times ago, it could
well be something else or a fundamental problem with the way the patches
are generated.

Personally, I think the display of patches is alrightyish.  As far as
"contributing back to Debian" is concerned, I am more underwhelmed how
fellow DDs who work at Canonical do not upload the new packages they
make for Ubuntu to unstable.  Of course, this is all their free time and
decision.  We need to concentrate more on the Utnubu project I guess.


Michael

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Re: Complaint about #debian operator

[Steve Langasek]

On Tue, Dec 13, 2005 at 11:29:14AM -0800, Russ Allbery wrote:
> Andrew Suffield <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:
> > On Mon, Dec 12, 2005 at 12:55:22PM +, Roger Leigh wrote:

> >> This says you are wrong:
> >> 
> >>   http://people.ubuntu.com/~scott/patches/

> > So if I were to diff the Debian archive against the Fedora one, I'd be
> > contributing to Fedora? Cool! That'll bolster my CV a bit.

> If Fedora were using the same packaging system so that the packaging diffs
> were meaningful, you separated out the diffs for the upstream source and
> the diffs for packaging, and you continued doing this on a regular basis
> so that Fedora maintainers could see what changes were made in Debian that
> they might be interested... yes, you would indeed be contributing to
> Fedora.

As absurd as Andrew's comparison may seem, the diffs distributed from
http://people.ubuntu.com/~scott/patches/ are pretty underwhelming as far as
"contributing back to Debian" is concerned.  Last time I poked at a package
diff there, IIRC the site showed me the diff against the last official sync
point with sid, *not* a -- so instead of looking at what Ubuntu had changed,
I was looking at n months of the Debian package's own diffs, plus the bits
changed by Ubuntu, all thrown in together. :/

So I'm sorry, but automated diffs made available for Debian maintainers to
poll are better than *not* having them, but they don't really score many
"giving back" points in my book.  For that matter, neither does making their
package changes publically available in repos that use a SCM that's not
(yet?) part of most DD's skillset.  There are obviously perfectly valid
reasons why they've standardized on the SCM they have, I just have no
illusions that it's magic juice that makes the Debian-Ubuntu relationship a
perfect partnership.

-- 
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Debian Developer   to set it on, and I can move the world.
[EMAIL PROTECTED]   http://www.debian.org/


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Re: Debian on one dvd?

[Steve Langasek]

On Tue, Dec 13, 2005 at 12:49:19PM -0500, Jaldhar H. Vyas wrote:
> One of the problems Linux users in countries like India have is low 
> bandwidth.  They prefer to get their distributions on CD or DVD as far as 
> possible.  Debian is very badly affected by this as we usually stress 
> updating over the net.

> At foss.in I spoke with the editor of Linux For You 
> (http://www.linuxforu.com/)
> which is a magazine devoted to Linux topics with national distribution. 
> As well as the articles, they distribute a DVD with each issue.  I asked 
> the editor if they would be willing to distribute a Debian DVD.  He said 
> he had several requests for this before but sarges' 2 DVD size was too big 
> and he was loathe to make any changes himself.  But if I could provide him 
> with a version which fit on one DVD, he would gladly include it in the 
> February 2006 edition.

> So has anyone done anything like this before?  Or would anyone be willing 
> to help get this done?  We have until the end of the year in order to meet 
> the deadline for February.

Why not just use the stock DVD 1 image?  As always, packages are sorted on
the disk images according to criteria like package priority and popcon
numbers, so probably ought to be 99% or more of the packages that 99% of the
users will need.

Unless there are specific packages missing from disk 1 that you know are
needed for this market, the stock ISO seems like it would be fine.

Cheers,
-- 
Steve Langasek   Give me a lever long enough and a Free OS
Debian Developer   to set it on, and I can move the world.
[EMAIL PROTECTED]   http://www.debian.org/


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Re: [Debian-in-workers] Re: Debian on one dvd?

[Christian Perrier]

> > So has anyone done anything like this before?
> 
> Yes. I did that for Linuxtag and Cebit. Actually I had a multiboot DVD,
> booting i386, amd64 and powerpc.


We had a few of these "Linuxtag" DVD's at the [EMAIL PROTECTED] trade show in
Paris, Novemer 2005. They were IMHO fairly well suited for including
in a magazine.

So, instead of reinventing a well-designed wheel, I suggest Jaldhar to
point the magazine editor to this DVD image. With very few
modifications (maybe some "germanisation" here or there), it could be
well-suited.



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Re: [Debian-in-workers] Debian on one dvd?

[Christian Perrier]

> At foss.in I spoke with the editor of Linux For You 
> (http://www.linuxforu.com/)
> which is a magazine devoted to Linux topics with national distribution. 
> As well as the articles, they distribute a DVD with each issue.  I asked 
> the editor if they would be willing to distribute a Debian DVD.  He said 

Jaldhar, do you think that, in addition to giving Debian DVD's they
could feature an article or interview about Debian in general and more
particularly the current big energy put in supporting languages from
India in Debian, as well as the very specific focus we put on India
and South Asia in general?

That could be an interview of some Debian contributors from the
countryor some of us in a more general way.

Maybe involve our beloved DPL (CC'ed) also ?



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