Re: Third call for votes for the debian project leader election 2006

[MJ Ray]

Wouter Verhelst <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> They don't need to be in the web of trust to affect those issues. They
> can just step in and do something.

This is often overlooked as a form of democracy. It's a bit brutal,
but can be useful.

> [...] and b) there is no clear-cut and
> objective criteria currently to identify those people who do make
> regular contributions without being a developer.

Unless something has changed since I last looked, the NM process
was hardly clear-cut or objective either.

> Put differently, here are a number of questions you should answer for
> this to have merit:
> * What should a non-DD contributor be doing before we consider him/her
>   eligible to vote?

Making a worthwhile contribution to the project. Interestingly,
self-censorship by non-members allows projects such as Indymedia
to function with much weaker membership qualification than debian.

> * How should we link their key to their identity, so that we *know* a
>   given key belongs to some non-DD contributor? For DDs, we know because
>   we've seen their uploads. For contributors, we don't see their
>   uploads, so we can only know through key signing, which is a weaker
>   criterion (unless they sign their contributions with their GPG key).

We should see submissions by contributors and those could be signed.

> * Should non-DD contributors be allowed to vote on just about anything?
>   If not, what types of votes should they be allowed to vote on, and
>   what types of votes should they not be allowed to vote on? Make this a
>   clear rule, so that you can apply it to any possible and impossible
>   thing we might have an idea about voting on.

- Appoint or recall the Project Leader.
- Override any decision by the Project Leader or a Delegate.
- Override any decision by the Technical Committee.
- Issue, supersede and withdraw nontechnical policy documents and statements.

I exclude the power to amend the constitution, which they've
agreed to even less than developers. All of the others affect
the work done by contributors in some way, so I think there's
an argument for giving them a voice. Maybe one or more of the
above should be subdivided, but I'm not sure.

> * Should non-DD contributors be allowed to propose General Resolutions?

Only ones that they can vote on.

> * Should non-DD contributors be allowed to nominate themselves as DPL?

No, it should require a number of seconds.


Kevin Mark <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> [...] But if there
> was a vote on say 'should debian create a new irc channel for mutt
> users' or 'what applications should be translated first for the urdu
> desktop?' or 'what is the number one thing that debian users want for
> etch?'  Then would a user need to be in the Debian web of trust to
> affect those issues? What would be required, short of joining the web of
> trust?

All of the above seem like JFDI ("Just F Do It") issues, not
requiring a vote.


Frans Pop <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> [...] If you do get more involved, you may want=20
> to read the Debian Constitution and Social Contract too. That would have=20
> given you the correct information regarding the democratic processes=20
> within Debian.

Except for the situations where they are ignored. I thought some
DDs claimed never to have agreed to those processes because they
predate the NM process: am I mistaken?


Manoj Srivastava <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Far from it being a known bug, I don't think it is a bug at
>  all.  There has to be some criteria for allowing people decision
>  making powers in the project (conducting the vote on slashdot would
>  be unacceptable to most people).

There is a space between "only uploaders may vote" and "everyone
may vote". Also, I believe non-uploading contributors also have
some responsiblity for the operating system debian distributes,
so they should have some decision-making role. Arguably, they
already do, but what weight should that role carry?

>  [...]  Becoming a DD also entails a level of commitment tot he
>  project that a casual contributor has not made.

Is anyone suggesting casual contributors get the vote? There are
some long-term contributors who do not have the vote and seem
unlikely to get through the current NM process: it's hard enough
for package maintainers with years in the free software scene
who get left in DAMnation for many months while they are quizzed
repeatedly over whether they know the difference between free beer
and free speech.

It may be that there needs to be clearer information for l10n
teams about who can become DDs and how, but I thought there was
resistance to non-uploading DDs. Did I misunderstand?

Best wishes,
-- 
MJR/slef
Laux nur mia opinio: vidu http://people.debian.org/~mjr/
Bv sekvu http://www.uk.debian.org/MailingLists/#codeofconduct


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Re: Third call for votes for the debian project leader election 2006

[Manoj Srivastava]

On 4 Apr 2006, Benj. Mako Hill said:

> 
>> The way I see it, Debian produces an modular OS. the
>> modularity of the product is, by and large[0], packages.
>
> .. snip ..
>
>> [0]. There are people who contribute to Debian other than as
>> package maintainers, but they do have the same rights of
>> uploading as anyone else.
>
> As other have pointed out, many package maintainers can't vote
> either.

In my nomenclature, people who upload the packages are the
 maintainers -- even if the majority of the work has been done by
 others, like the uipstream author. As far as Debian is concerned, the
 person sho signed off on the upload is the one attesting to the
 quality of the package. Also, they are the only ones we can actually
 trust we can verify the identity of (there is a reason for the web of
 trust),

> I think that the fact that the upload keyring is the same as the
> voting keyring is bad. Contributors are told they can't vote until
> they learn C compiler flags. People who don't upload anymore keep
> their privileges in order to vote.

I beg to differ here. I think that rights and priviledges
 accorded to full membership are done correctly, the steep cirve for
 becoming a maintainer keeps the riff-raff and troublemakers out (the
 investment of time and effort does not meet the retrn-on-investment
 thresholds for most  crackers, for instance).

> Branden had an interesting idea of fixing the second big by allowing
> people to simply opt-out of upload privileges through
> db.debian.org. Debian has a *very* poor recognizing non-packaging
> contributions to the community with enfranchisement of any sort.

That is a bug I would be willing to accept as such.

manoj
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Re: Setting up i18n.debian.org?

[Benj. Mako Hill]

> I was also informed of pootle (http://translate.sourceforge.net/) which is 
> another free option.

My sense is that pootle is a bit more advanced in terms of features and
such. I'd love to see something like this set up.

Regards,
Mako

-- 
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[EMAIL PROTECTED]
http://mako.cc/


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Re: Third call for votes for the debian project leader election 2006

[Benj. Mako Hill]

> Most developers seem to agree that there are bugs in our process for
> integrating new members into the project, but that's not the same as
> saying that non-DDs should be allowed to vote

Clearly not.

> voting rights are one of the few privileges that are reserved only for
> developers, and arguably the most important.

It's argueably the most important right that is reserved for developers
but it does not necessary stand to reason that it should be reserved
only for those who engage in development.

I'd like to see those who have made long-term, sustained, and
significant contributions to Debian enfranchised. That could mean
broadening the category of developer through changes to NM or it could
also mean another enfranchised category of contributor. That's what I
read as the argument at the core of this thread -- but perhaps I was
just projecting.

Regards,
Mako

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Re: Third call for votes for the debian project leader election 2006

[Manoj Srivastava]

On 3 Apr 2006, Helen Faulkner spake thusly:

> Wouter Verhelst wrote:
>
> [...]
>
>> Put differently, here are a number of questions you should answer
>> for this to have merit:
>> * What should a non-DD contributor be doing before we consider him/her
>> eligible to vote?
>
> Well, presumably something that is equivalent (in effort?  in some
> kind of measurable results?) to the minimal contribution made by
> someone who is a DD.  Which, in some cases, is pretty minimal, as I
> understand it.

If effort is a metric of ability to affect voting, shouldn't
 people who maintain more packages get more proxies?  Should people
 who do more (like debian-installer, release management, archive
 maintenance, etc) also get more proxy votes?

Personally, I don't think that voting rights are a reward for
 effort spent, really.

manoj
-- 
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Re: Third call for votes for the debian project leader election 2006

[Manoj Srivastava]

On 3 Apr 2006, Wouter Verhelst outgrape:

> I don't have any problems per se with non-DD contributors being
> allowed to vote on matters of purely technical substance.

I have a problem with _anyone_ voting on a matter of purely
 technical substance. If it is purely technical, popularity ought not
 to be the deciding factor.  If needed, get the domain experts into
 the picture, and selct the technically correct, or optimal,
 solution.  Letting the random joe vote on it is the wrong thing to
 do.

manoj
-- 
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Re: Third call for votes for the debian project leader election 2006

[Benj. Mako Hill]

> The problem is more one of 'how do we identify those people that aren't
> a Developer, but that do contribute regularly'.

There are a number of ways of doing this although, like NM, it's
ultimately a human process that is carried out in the context of
guidelines. Ubuntu has separate categories for member and maintainer
(only the latter can upload although they are equal in all other
respects) and their process involves testimonial, demonstrated work
over a long period of time, and review by an elected board. Something
similar could work in Debian.

> Since Debian votes are conducted through GPG-signed mails and
> regular contributors aren't part of the Debian web of trust, this is
> more than a convenience issue. Note that Debian Developers without
> an active key in the keyring can't vote, either.

The system could still require a key signed by another Debian
developer. The identity part of NM is not the most difficult part for
many and is easily overcome even by non-developers.

Regards,
Mako

-- 
Benjamin Mako Hill
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Re: Third call for votes for the debian project leader election 2006

[Jorgen Schaefer]

Helen Faulkner <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:

> It seems to me that we are already in a situation where only the
> people who are really interested in, or informed about, a
> particular question are voting on it.

And that's bad because ...?

Greetings,
-- Jorgen

-- 
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[EMAIL PROTECTED]
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Re: Third call for votes for the debian project leader election 2006

[Kevin Mark]

On Mon, Apr 03, 2006 at 11:01:57PM -0500, Gunnar Wolf wrote:
> [ dropping the cc: to debian-i18n@lists.debian.org ]

> the signers to be part of the web of trust... But non-DDs would be
> able to speak. Not vote, but see their opinion reflected.
that was more or less what I was saying. While Devs will still need to
fix bug, they could look up from their green VT100 and see what the
users may like and appreciate them to tweak/add/fix.
Cheers,
Kev
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Re: Third call for votes for the debian project leader election 2006

[Kevin Mark]

Hi Gunnar,
On Mon, Apr 03, 2006 at 11:05:00PM -0500, Gunnar Wolf wrote:

> > Hi Wouter,
> > the Debian web of trust is very important to things that directly affect
> > things like: uploading packages, access to servers, etc. But if there
> > was a vote on say 'should debian create a new irc channel for mutt
> > users' or 'what applications should be translated first for the urdu
> > desktop?' or 'what is the number one thing that debian users want for
> > etch?'  Then would a user need to be in the Debian web of trust to
> > affect those issues? What would be required, short of joining the web of
> > trust?
> 
> Hi,
> 
> In many places on Earth, "voting" and "fraud" are close to being
> synonimous. 
yea, I know, I live in the US x-)
> If we don't set up a control that makes each person to be
> worth one and only one vote, we could just set up a polling gadget in
> our webpage - and let the robots vote as often as they please.
> 
> If I were to decide, I would define such web of trust as people signed
> directly by a DD - Maybe two hops away, but that's probably extending
> it too much beyond what we know to be true.
> 
> Greetings,
imagine a thing like google map with pinpoints for all DD's. Now add a
circle of say 50 miles around each. Now if people in those areas could
meet a DD and join the web of trust, what percentage of people would be
able to join the web of trust to take a poll/vote? That would probably
make it easier for EU folks to get more votes than folks in the US. I
suppose that would have to be a limitation for now, before we reach
world domination and everyone is a DD x-) (Can vi and emacs be DD's?)
cheers,
Kev
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Re: Third call for votes for the debian project leader election 2006

[Benj. Mako Hill]

> The way I see it, Debian produces an modular OS. the
>  modularity of the product is, by and large[0], packages.

.. snip ..

>  [0]. There are people who contribute to Debian other than as
>   package maintainers, but they do have the same rights of
>   uploading as anyone else.

As other have pointed out, many package maintainers can't vote either.

I think that the fact that the upload keyring is the same as the
voting keyring is bad. Contributors are told they can't vote until
they learn C compiler flags. People who don't upload anymore keep
their privileges in order to vote.

Branden had an interesting idea of fixing the second big by allowing
people to simply opt-out of upload privileges through
db.debian.org. Debian has a *very* poor recognizing non-packaging
contributions to the community with enfranchisement of any sort.

Regards,
Mako

-- 
Benjamin Mako Hill
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
http://mako.cc/



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Re: Third call for votes for the debian project leader election 2006

[Steve Langasek]

On Mon, Apr 03, 2006 at 09:29:51PM +1000, Helen Faulkner wrote:
> > * Should non-DD contributors be allowed to vote on just about anything?
> >   If not, what types of votes should they be allowed to vote on, and
> >   what types of votes should they not be allowed to vote on? Make this a
> >   clear rule, so that you can apply it to any possible and impossible
> >   thing we might have an idea about voting on.

> Maybe a better question is "would non-DD contributors vote on things that
> they don't understand?"  It seems to me that we are already in a situation
> where only the people who are really interested in, or informed about, a
> particular question are voting on it.  That's why we have such low voting
> rates.  It seems likely to me that people who don't know about something
> and who can't be bothered informing themselves won't bother vote anyway.

Do you think that developers who base their votes on the contents of DPL
platforms are informed voters?

-- 
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Debian Developer   to set it on, and I can move the world.
[EMAIL PROTECTED]   http://www.debian.org/


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Re: Third call for votes for the debian project leader election 2006

[Gunnar Wolf]

Kevin Mark dijo [Mon, Apr 03, 2006 at 03:26:45AM -0400]:
> > The problem is more one of 'how do we identify those people that aren't
> > a Developer, but that do contribute regularly'. Since Debian votes are
> > conducted through GPG-signed mails and regular contributors aren't part
> > of the Debian web of trust, this is more than a convenience issue. Note
> > that Debian Developers without an active key in the keyring can't vote,
> > either.
> > 
> > If you have a fix for that problem, I don't see why we shouldn't support
> > it.
> 
> Hi Wouter,
> the Debian web of trust is very important to things that directly affect
> things like: uploading packages, access to servers, etc. But if there
> was a vote on say 'should debian create a new irc channel for mutt
> users' or 'what applications should be translated first for the urdu
> desktop?' or 'what is the number one thing that debian users want for
> etch?'  Then would a user need to be in the Debian web of trust to
> affect those issues? What would be required, short of joining the web of
> trust?

Hi,

In many places on Earth, "voting" and "fraud" are close to being
synonimous. If we don't set up a control that makes each person to be
worth one and only one vote, we could just set up a polling gadget in
our webpage - and let the robots vote as often as they please.

If I were to decide, I would define such web of trust as people signed
directly by a DD - Maybe two hops away, but that's probably extending
it too much beyond what we know to be true.

Greetings,

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Re: Third call for votes for the debian project leader election 2006

[Gunnar Wolf]

[ dropping the cc: to debian-i18n@lists.debian.org ]

Kevin Mark dijo [Mon, Apr 03, 2006 at 03:06:42AM -0400]:
> On Mon, Apr 03, 2006 at 02:55:37AM -0400, Kevin Mark wrote:
> 
> It just dawned upon me that it would be great to have unofficial votes
> by non-debian-developers as a way to gage the broader debian communites
> reponse to things. If debian is committed to its end users, a vote which
> shows their views would be a way to gage it. I am aware that there are
> things that should not be designed by a community where techical
> or security decisions are concerned but it would be a great feedback
> tool to see if folks think that debian is moving in a good directions.

Hmmm... Your idea sounds quite nice - I would not see it that much
relevant for the DPL election, as it is a highly internal topic, but
yes, I'd love to see the active/involved user and non-official
developer stand on our other votes. Maybe we could even make a series
of concentric rings representing the different "tiers" of involvement?
:) Of course, we would still require the votes to be gpg-signed, and
the signers to be part of the web of trust... But non-DDs would be
able to speak. Not vote, but see their opinion reflected.

Greetings,

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Re: Third call for votes for the debian project leader election 2006

[Wouter Verhelst]

On Mon, Apr 03, 2006 at 09:29:51PM +1000, Helen Faulkner wrote:
> Wouter Verhelst wrote:
> > Put differently, here are a number of questions you should answer for
> > this to have merit:
> > * What should a non-DD contributor be doing before we consider him/her
> >   eligible to vote?
> 
> Well, presumably something that is equivalent (in effort?  in some kind of
> measurable results?) to the minimal contribution made by someone who is a DD.
> Which, in some cases, is pretty minimal, as I understand it.

Sure, some people with Developer status are pretty inactive. Those
usually don't vote, however. Also, inactive developers have usually been
active at _some_ point in the past. there's a difference with someone
who's attached one patch to one bug and now goes on to claim "I'm a
contributor, let me vote!" -- surely you understand that it's a bit
early for such a person to be given voting privileges?

OTOH, someone who's been very active as a translator for a few years
does deserve to be given voting privileges, IMO. Whether it be through
being given Developer status or through something else is besides the
point.

> > * How should we link their key to their identity, so that we *know* a
> >   given key belongs to some non-DD contributor? For DDs, we know because
> >   we've seen their uploads. For contributors, we don't see their
> >   uploads, so we can only know through key signing, which is a weaker
> >   criterion (unless they sign their contributions with their GPG key).
> 
> I don't have any particular opinions about this.  Surely if someone in
> the project has signed their key (or maybe more than one person?), we
> know who they are (at least as well as we know who anyone else in the
> project is)

Debian developers have gone through NM, usually by signing every mail
with their GPG key; if they've been Developers for longer than a few
days, they've usually also done at least some uploads with that key.
That allows us to link their *contributions* to their GPG key, rather
than just their name.

The same isn't true for non-DD contributors. There needs to be some way
to link their contribution to their key, IMO. How this is accomplished
isn't important to me personally, but it must be answered somehow.

After all, a name isn't enough to uniquely identify someone; as an
example, see http://www.volleyteam-roeselare.be/spelers/verhelst.htm --
a player in the Belgian top volley team of Roeselare (hence the URL)
with exactly the same name as myself.

> > * Should non-DD contributors be allowed to vote on just about anything?
> >   If not, what types of votes should they be allowed to vote on, and
> >   what types of votes should they not be allowed to vote on? Make this a
> >   clear rule, so that you can apply it to any possible and impossible
> >   thing we might have an idea about voting on.
> 
> Maybe a better question is "would non-DD contributors vote on things
> that they don't understand?"

No, I really do mean "Should non-DD contributors be allowed to vote on
just about anything?" As an example, I don't think I'd be comfortable
with non-DD contributors to be allowed to vote on who gets to be DAM, or
so; not that there should be a vote on that particular subject, but you
get the point.

I don't have any problems per se with non-DD contributors being allowed
to vote on matters of purely technical substance. I am slightly less
comfortable with non-DD contributors being allowed to vote on General
Resolutions about "issues of the day", as per 4.1.5 of the constitution.
I am not comfortable at all when non-DD contributors would be allowed to
vote on subject matters that directly involve their status within the
Debian project.

> It seems to me that we are already in a situation where only the
> people who are really interested in, or informed about, a particular
> question are voting on it.

Sure, but that's irrelevant to my question.

> > * Should non-DD contributors be allowed to propose General Resolutions?
>
> Why not?

Because non-DD contributors haven't pledged to uphold the Social
Contract and/or the DFSG in any formal sense?

Because one of the things of being a Debian Developer is to show some
commitment regarding Free Software, which people who aren't Debian
Developers haven't formally done?

[...]
> > * Should non-DD contributors be allowed to nominate themselves as DPL?
> 
> Why not?  Would someone who isn't maintaining a package but who is
> contributing in other significant ways, enough to think they have a
> chance of being elected, be unsuitable for the essentially
> non-technical role of DPL anyway?

The role of DPL is one that takes a huge effort and commitment. Do you
think it would be wise to have someone be a DPL who hasn't made the
(much smaller) commitment of becoming a Debian Developer first?

> > Hope that answers it,
> 
> I think it raises more questions.  But this is a good discussion to
> have, I think.

ACK.

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Re: Third call for votes for the debian project leader election 2006

[Helen Faulkner]

Wouter Verhelst wrote:

[...]

> Put differently, here are a number of questions you should answer for
> this to have merit:
> * What should a non-DD contributor be doing before we consider him/her
>   eligible to vote?

Well, presumably something that is equivalent (in effort?  in some kind of
measurable results?) to the minimal contribution made by someone who is a DD.
Which, in some cases, is pretty minimal, as I understand it.

> * How should we link their key to their identity, so that we *know* a
>   given key belongs to some non-DD contributor? For DDs, we know because
>   we've seen their uploads. For contributors, we don't see their
>   uploads, so we can only know through key signing, which is a weaker
>   criterion (unless they sign their contributions with their GPG key).

I don't have any particular opinions about this.  Surely if someone in the
project has signed their key (or maybe more than one person?), we know who they
are (at least as well as we know who anyone else in the project is)

> * Should non-DD contributors be allowed to vote on just about anything?
>   If not, what types of votes should they be allowed to vote on, and
>   what types of votes should they not be allowed to vote on? Make this a
>   clear rule, so that you can apply it to any possible and impossible
>   thing we might have an idea about voting on.

Maybe a better question is "would non-DD contributors vote on things that they
don't understand?"  It seems to me that we are already in a situation where only
the people who are really interested in, or informed about, a particular
question are voting on it.  That's why we have such low voting rates.  It seems
likely to me that people who don't know about something and who can't be
bothered informing themselves won't bother vote anyway.

Maybe we should include in the voting process a statement, to be signed with the
person's key, that goes something like "I assert that I have read the relevant
background on this issue and am able to make an informed decision for the good
of the Debian Project"?  After all, everyone here is interested in the good of
Debian.

> * Should non-DD contributors be allowed to propose General Resolutions?

Why not?

> * Should non-DD contributors be allowed to nominate themselves as DPL?

Why not?  Would someone who isn't maintaining a package but who is contributing
in other significant ways, enough to think they have a chance of being elected,
be unsuitable for the essentially non-technical role of DPL anyway?

>> What would be required, short of joining the web of trust?
> 
> Hope that answers it,

I think it raises more questions.  But this is a good discussion to have, I 
think.

Helen




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Re: Third call for votes for the debian project leader election 2006

[cobaco (aka Bart Cornelis)]

On Monday 03 April 2006 09:15, Steve Langasek wrote:
> On Mon, Apr 03, 2006 at 07:27:05AM +0100, MJ Ray wrote:
> > Clytie Siddall <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> >
> > > I don't understand why this election is restricted to Debian
> > > Developers. What about all the other people who regularly contribute
> > > time and effort to the Debian project?
> >
> > This is a known bug, I think, but I don't remember any of this
> > year's candidates pledging to solve it.
>
> Er.  "Known bugs" are a subset of those things which are "bugs"; I don't
> see many people who actually think it's a bug that only full members of
> the project are allowed to vote.  (Most developers seem to agree that
> there are bugs in our process for integrating new members into the
> project, but that's not the same as saying that non-DDs should be allowed
> to vote -- voting rights are one of the few privileges that are reserved
> only for developers, and arguably the most important.)

the bug would be the perception that you can't become a DD (=full member) 
when you're a translator/documentation writer, which is largely a 
consequence of the 'developer' part of the name.

Now how easy it is for a pure translator/documentation writer/... to pass 
NM, I don't know, but from what I hear it _is_ possible with the NM process 
nowadays (though again the maintainer is a disnomer in that case).
-- 
Cheers, cobaco (aka Bart Cornelis)
  
1. Encrypted mail preferred (GPG KeyID: 0x86624ABB)
2. Plain-text mail recommended since I move html and double
format mails to a low priority folder (they're mainly spam)


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Re: Third call for votes for the debian project leader election 2006

[Antti-Juhani Kaijanaho]

[This is not really addressed to Clytie specifically, rather it's a more 
general mini-essay on this topic.]


Clytie Siddall wrote:
I don't understand why this election is restricted to Debian Developers. 


In a certain formal sense, the ability to vote in general resolutions 
and DPL elections is the defining attribute of a Debian Developer. If 
you can vote, you are a DD; and if you can't, you aren't.  It's rather 
like the citizenship of a country.


Being a DD also conveys additional but not as fundamental privileges: 
access to several Debian servers and the ability to upload packages are 
the most important ones. There has been talk about separating these 
privileges from developership, but there is no consensus about that.


Being a developer says nothing about what one does in Debian (except 
that one is expected to do _something_ worthwhile:). There are the 
package maintainers, some of which are Debian Developers; there are the 
translators, some of which are Debian Developers; there are the 
technical writers, some of which are Debian Developers; and so on. 
(Naturally, these groups of people overlap somewhat, but that's not a 
very important point.)


Certainly regular contributors ought to be inducted into developership, 
and disregarding the speed in which it happens, it does generally 
happen. The process for inducting new developers is called the New 
_Maintainer_ process mainly for historical reasons.


What about all the other people who regularly contribute time and effort 
to the Debian project?


If one wants to vote for the President of the United States, one should 
apply for the US citizenship. If one wants to vote for the DPL, one 
should apply for Debian developership.



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Re: Third call for votes for the debian project leader election 2006

[Frederic Lehobey]

Hi,

On Mon, Apr 03, 2006 at 05:10:16PM +1000, Helen Faulkner wrote:
> Kevin Mark wrote:
> > On Mon, Apr 03, 2006 at 02:55:37AM -0400, Kevin Mark wrote:
> > 
> > It just dawned upon me that it would be great to have unofficial votes
> > by non-debian-developers as a way to gage the broader debian communites
> > reponse to things. If debian is committed to its end users, a vote which
> > shows their views would be a way to gage it. I am aware that there are
> > things that should not be designed by a community where techical
> > or security decisions are concerned but it would be a great feedback
> > tool to see if folks think that debian is moving in a good directions.
> 
> Actually, I think that's a really interesting idea.  I wonder what the
> difference would be in the voting choices of Debian developers compared with
> Debian contributers who aren't developers, compared with Debian users.

> Would it be technically feasible to set up a parallel voting process for
> non-developers, to get an idea of to what extent the DD vote matches the wider
> vote?  How would we ensure, within reason, that people couldn't rig the system
> too badly?

With a parallel voting system like this one? http://www.demexp.org/
(still in development)

Best regards,
Frederic Lehobey


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Re: Third call for votes for the debian project leader election 2006

[Manoj Srivastava]

On 3 Apr 2006, MJ Ray stated:

> Clytie Siddall <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>> I don't understand why this election is restricted to Debian
>> Developers. What about all the other people who regularly
>> contribute time and effort to the Debian project?
>
> This is a known bug, I think, but I don't remember any of this
> year's candidates pledging to solve it. There seems few votes
> in fixing this bug, as most possible solutions dilute the
> influence of the current electorate. I suspect only anarchists
> and democrats like myself would support it.

Far from it being a known bug, I don't think it is a bug at
 all.  There has to be some criteria for allowing people decision
 making powers in the project (conducting the vote on slashdot would
 be unacceptable to most people).

The way I see it, Debian produces an modular OS. the
 modularity of the product is, by and large[0], packages. people at
 whose desks the buck stops are the maintainers of the packages --
 and, colletively, that means they are responsible for the OS. ergo,
 the right to vote comes with the responsibility of being the go-to
 guy when problems show up with the package.

In other words, those who are responsible, decide.

I acknowledge that any number of people are responsible for
 getting the software in shape for it to be shipped in Dewbian
 (with the upstream author usually doing most of the  creative
  heavy lifting), but one person signs off on the package, which gets
  it into the gate and into the archive -- and that signature carries
  with it responsibility for the code introduced into the
  archive. This, nominally, is what begets the right to decide on
  critical issues facing the project.

Becoming a DD also entails a level of commitment tot he
 project that a casual contributor has not made. When it comes to
 making decisions that may affect me, my packages, and the users of my
 packages, I think it is only fitting the decisions are made by
 people who have demonstrated a level of commitment to the project, as
 well as the principles it stands for  (affirmation of the SC and the
 DFSG, for instance).

manoj

 [0]. There are people who contribute to Debian other than as
  package maintainers, but they do have the same rights of
  uploading as anyone else.

-- 
A right is not what someone gives you; it's what no one can take from
you. Ramsey Clark
Manoj Srivastava   <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>  
1024D/BF24424C print 4966 F272 D093 B493 410B  924B 21BA DABB BF24 424C


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Re: Third call for votes for the debian project leader election 2006

[Wouter Verhelst]

[dropped -i18n from Cc, not really relevant there]

On Mon, Apr 03, 2006 at 03:26:45AM -0400, Kevin Mark wrote:
> On Mon, Apr 03, 2006 at 08:58:57AM +0200, Wouter Verhelst wrote:
> > The problem is more one of 'how do we identify those people that aren't
> > a Developer, but that do contribute regularly'. Since Debian votes are
> > conducted through GPG-signed mails and regular contributors aren't part
> > of the Debian web of trust, this is more than a convenience issue. Note
> > that Debian Developers without an active key in the keyring can't vote,
> > either.
> > 
> > If you have a fix for that problem, I don't see why we shouldn't support
> > it.
> > 
> Hi Wouter,
> the Debian web of trust is very important to things that directly affect
> things like: uploading packages, access to servers, etc. But if there
> was a vote on say 'should debian create a new irc channel for mutt
> users' or 'what applications should be translated first for the urdu
> desktop?' or 'what is the number one thing that debian users want for
> etch?'

(neither of which sounds like something that would need a vote, rather,
just someone who feels like doing the work)

> Then would a user need to be in the Debian web of trust to affect
> those issues?

They don't need to be in the web of trust to affect those issues. They
can just step in and do something.

However, the point I was trying to make is that people who don't have a
GPG key in the Debian keyring currently can't vote, because of a)
technical issues (no gpg key in the keyring means you're not eligible to
vote, even if you *are* a DD), and b) there is no clear-cut and
objective criteria currently to identify those people who do make
regular contributions without being a developer.

Put differently, here are a number of questions you should answer for
this to have merit:
* What should a non-DD contributor be doing before we consider him/her
  eligible to vote?
* How should we link their key to their identity, so that we *know* a
  given key belongs to some non-DD contributor? For DDs, we know because
  we've seen their uploads. For contributors, we don't see their
  uploads, so we can only know through key signing, which is a weaker
  criterion (unless they sign their contributions with their GPG key).
* Should non-DD contributors be allowed to vote on just about anything?
  If not, what types of votes should they be allowed to vote on, and
  what types of votes should they not be allowed to vote on? Make this a
  clear rule, so that you can apply it to any possible and impossible
  thing we might have an idea about voting on.
* Should non-DD contributors be allowed to propose General Resolutions?
* Should non-DD contributors be allowed to nominate themselves as DPL?

> What would be required, short of joining the web of trust?

Hope that answers it,

-- 
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  -- Seven Of Nine, "Ashes to Ashes", stardate 53679.4


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Re: Third call for votes for the debian project leader election 2006

[Kevin Mark]

On Mon, Apr 03, 2006 at 08:58:57AM +0200, Wouter Verhelst wrote:
> On Mon, Apr 03, 2006 at 07:27:05AM +0100, MJ Ray wrote:
> > Clytie Siddall <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > > I don't understand why this election is restricted to Debian
> > > Developers. What about all the other people who regularly contribute
> > > time and effort to the Debian project?
> > 
> > This is a known bug, I think, but I don't remember any of this
> > year's candidates pledging to solve it. There seems few votes
> > in fixing this bug, as most possible solutions dilute the
> > influence of the current electorate. I suspect only anarchists
> > and democrats like myself would support it.
> 
> The problem is more one of 'how do we identify those people that aren't
> a Developer, but that do contribute regularly'. Since Debian votes are
> conducted through GPG-signed mails and regular contributors aren't part
> of the Debian web of trust, this is more than a convenience issue. Note
> that Debian Developers without an active key in the keyring can't vote,
> either.
> 
> If you have a fix for that problem, I don't see why we shouldn't support
> it.
> 
Hi Wouter,
the Debian web of trust is very important to things that directly affect
things like: uploading packages, access to servers, etc. But if there
was a vote on say 'should debian create a new irc channel for mutt
users' or 'what applications should be translated first for the urdu
desktop?' or 'what is the number one thing that debian users want for
etch?'  Then would a user need to be in the Debian web of trust to
affect those issues? What would be required, short of joining the web of
trust?
Cheers,
Kev
-- 
|  .''`.  == Debian GNU/Linux == |   my web site:   |
| : :' :  The  Universal | debian.home.pipeline.com |
| `. `'  Operating System| go to counter.li.org and |
|   `-http://www.debian.org/ |be counted! #238656   |
| my keysever: pgp.mit.edu   | my NPO: cfsg.org |


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Re: Third call for votes for the debian project leader election 2006

[Steve Langasek]

On Mon, Apr 03, 2006 at 07:27:05AM +0100, MJ Ray wrote:
> Clytie Siddall <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > I don't understand why this election is restricted to Debian
> > Developers. What about all the other people who regularly contribute
> > time and effort to the Debian project?

> This is a known bug, I think, but I don't remember any of this
> year's candidates pledging to solve it.

Er.  "Known bugs" are a subset of those things which are "bugs"; I don't see
many people who actually think it's a bug that only full members of the
project are allowed to vote.  (Most developers seem to agree that there are
bugs in our process for integrating new members into the project, but that's
not the same as saying that non-DDs should be allowed to vote -- voting
rights are one of the few privileges that are reserved only for developers,
and arguably the most important.)

-- 
Steve Langasek   Give me a lever long enough and a Free OS
Debian Developer   to set it on, and I can move the world.
[EMAIL PROTECTED]   http://www.debian.org/


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Re: Third call for votes for the debian project leader election 2006

[Helen Faulkner]

Hi,

Kevin Mark wrote:
> On Mon, Apr 03, 2006 at 02:55:37AM -0400, Kevin Mark wrote:
> 
> It just dawned upon me that it would be great to have unofficial votes
> by non-debian-developers as a way to gage the broader debian communites
> reponse to things. If debian is committed to its end users, a vote which
> shows their views would be a way to gage it. I am aware that there are
> things that should not be designed by a community where techical
> or security decisions are concerned but it would be a great feedback
> tool to see if folks think that debian is moving in a good directions.

Actually, I think that's a really interesting idea.  I wonder what the
difference would be in the voting choices of Debian developers compared with
Debian contributers who aren't developers, compared with Debian users.

I guess that if the first two categories of people were voting in the same ways,
one could claim that the voting system is working, in that the vote is
representing the views of those who work on Debian.   (What level of importance
we should place on the collective viewpoint of those who use Debian but don't
contribute to it, for things like the DPL elections, is also an interesting
question).

Would it be technically feasible to set up a parallel voting process for
non-developers, to get an idea of to what extent the DD vote matches the wider
vote?  How would we ensure, within reason, that people couldn't rig the system
too badly?

Helen



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Re: Third call for votes for the debian project leader election 2006

[Kevin Mark]

On Mon, Apr 03, 2006 at 02:55:37AM -0400, Kevin Mark wrote:

It just dawned upon me that it would be great to have unofficial votes
by non-debian-developers as a way to gage the broader debian communites
reponse to things. If debian is committed to its end users, a vote which
shows their views would be a way to gage it. I am aware that there are
things that should not be designed by a community where techical
or security decisions are concerned but it would be a great feedback
tool to see if folks think that debian is moving in a good directions.
Cheers,
Kev
-- 
|  .''`.  == Debian GNU/Linux == |   my web site:   |
| : :' :  The  Universal | debian.home.pipeline.com |
| `. `'  Operating System| go to counter.li.org and |
|   `-http://www.debian.org/ |be counted! #238656   |
| my keysever: pgp.mit.edu   | my NPO: cfsg.org |


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