Re: irc.debian.org

[MJ Ray]

Peter Samuelson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> One might think private messages are useful in user support, but
> #debian actually has a channel policy asking users not to send them
> without permission. [...]

So, one might think the current #debian is not actually as useful
in user support as it could be?

> And as for Debian development, I receive even fewer private messages
> related to that.  Do the rest of you? 

No, I receive fewer public than private messages about debian development.
I don't often connect to debian IRC channels, though.

> What aspects of Debian development warrant private conversations?

Introductions, misunderstandings and conflict resolution. The
outcomes should be public, but it is not always as effective
for the conversations to be.

> [...] it just surprises me that people other than really heavy IRC
> users would even notice the effect of this freenode default.

Oh, it's fairly noticeable if you try to move an email discussion
to IRC and you start getting error messages returned, but part
of the problem is that not all clients handle the effect of
freenode defaults well. The first time I noticed this (the +q
lunacy), the attitude seemed to be that IRC clients should change
to cope with freenode, not that freenode should cope with clients.

> Not that
> it's exactly a _secret_ - I mean, the information is one click away
> =66rom http://freenode.net/ (the link mysteriously titled "using the
> network").

freenode differs from normal IRC too much. It's unsurprising if
users don't notice the small changes until they bite, even if they
are documented on a different protocol.

-- 
MJR/slef
Laux nur mia opinio: vidu http://people.debian.org/~mjr/
Bv sekvu http://www.uk.debian.org/MailingLists/#codeofconduct


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Re: Debian and professional certifications

[MJ Ray]

Gunnar Wolf <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> An=EDbal Monsalve Salazar dijo [Tue, May 02, 2006 at 04:40:49PM +1000]:
> > So, the NM process could then be renamed "Debian Professional
> > Certification".
> 
> If you wish to certify somebody as willing to join endless flamewars,
> to idle around in IRC and devote his time to volunteer work, yes, it
> might

There is no requirement for it, although many choose to do that.
Sometimes the artisans and amateurs care too much to let it lie.
Maybe more professionals would actually cool that aspect.

> - Often, certifications care about the individual and not about
> its interactions with any group, but merely take a snapshot on their
> proficiency on a limited set of practical abilities at a given point
> in time (remember that most certifications will expire sooner than
> later).

So, successful debian participation is actually a more realistic
test of one's abilities and proficiency in developing free
software, which is often done in groups. Eventually, that
participation will be irrelevant, but debian recognition of
work isn't driven to expire by a desire to generate test fees,
so it seems superior in that way too.

Even so, I don't think NM should be regarded as the threshhold
- and I don't want to encourage DD trophy hunters - but more
general successful participation seems a good way to help both
debian and professional students.  What is the best form for
documenting it?

Thanks,
-- 
MJR/slef
Laux nur mia opinio: vidu http://people.debian.org/~mjr/
Bv sekvu http://www.uk.debian.org/MailingLists/#codeofconduct


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Re: Google summer of code

[Christian Perrier]

(keeping CC for the moment. I suggest to keep -project CC'ed as long
as the topic is still close to Google Summer of Code)

Quoting Martin Michlmayr ([EMAIL PROTECTED]):
> * Gasper Zejn <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> [2006-05-02 22:36]:
> > I intend to apply for Google's summer of code for Debian's I18N
> > infrastructure plan. Is there somebody I should discuss this with or
> > should I just submit the application?
> 
> Reviewing the discussions that happened on the debian-i18n list
> recently would certainly be a good idea.


I was thinking about GSoC for the recurrent topic of i18n
infrastructure.

However, our ideas about it are currently not clear. The planned i18n
meeting in Extremadura/Spain next September is mostly aimed at drawing
these ideas into a real plan to have something setup.

I also want to take the opportunity of the Debconf next week to throw
out early ideas and prepare that meeting.

Up to now, various existing solutions have been evaluated and
discussed, such as Pootle, transdict or even Rosetta. But, my own
personal opinion is that going for this or that tool befre having a
clear idea of what we need is a bit wrong.

In short, I would have hard times writing down a "project" with a
clear goal, and probably even more hard times mentoring it ( but that
could be done by someone else), mostly because low availability during
summer time.

So, I can't refrain anyone to go along with this but I'm unsure about
the timing.




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Re: irc.debian.org

[Andreas Schuldei]

On Wed, May 03, 2006 at 01:50:41AM +0200, Marco d'Itri wrote:
> [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
> 
> >I'm talking about well after the OFTC formation. If there are that many
> >people dissatisfied with freenode, it seems likely that there are
> How many? Let's add some data to the thread:

i would be interested in the number of netsplits. do you have a diagram
for that, too?


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Re: irc.debian.org

[Clint Adams]

> I wonder, do you and the other "me too" people also have a reason to
> justify switching?

How about "Rob Levin is still alive"?


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Re: irc.debian.org

[Marco d'Itri]

[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

>I'm talking about well after the OFTC formation. If there are that many
>people dissatisfied with freenode, it seems likely that there are
How many? Let's add some data to the thread:

http://irc.netsplit.de/cgi-bin/ncompare.cgi?n1=freenode&n2=OFTC

The multi-year graphs better show the respective growths:

http://irc.netsplit.de/networks/details.php?net=freenode&point=years
http://irc.netsplit.de/networks/details.php?net=OFTC&point=years

-- 
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Marco


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Re: irc.debian.org

[Paul Johnson]

On Tuesday 02 May 2006 16:19, Wouter Verhelst wrote:
> On Tue, May 02, 2006 at 03:52:33PM -0700, Paul Johnson wrote:
> > On Tuesday 02 May 2006 08:40, Cord Beermann wrote:
> > > >Why not move it to Jabber?  More people use and know what Jabber is
> > > > these days than IRC.
> > >
> > > Jabber doesn't have any useable non-graphic Clients.
> >
> > So write one or grab one of the existing ones and make it not suck.
>
> As it is, IRC *does* have non-sucking non-graphic clients. If you think
> people should switch to Jabber, I think you ought to write such a
> client, not someone who's not interested in using Jabber in the first
> place.

All the concole Jabber clients I've come across suit me fine.  I can't program 
for a variable that I can't perceive.

> > > for the usual one to one communication it might be ok, but for
> > > groupchat (and thats what most people do on IRC it simply sucks.
> >
> > By design, IRC encourages people to do truly obnoxious things, like
> > spamming the channel to announce they're going away,
>
> That's not really the design of IRC; rather, it's the design of some
> clients.

It's a misfeature in clients caused by the bad design of IRC:  It lacks 
presence information, which people do find important.  Just not 
channelworthy.

> > or indicating their status with nicknames (which also spams the
> > channel).  You also get spammed on IRC whenever someone joins or
> > leaves a channel.
>
> Most IRC clients allow those to be switched off. Personally, I happen to
> like them.

s/most/none/.  I just tried irssi, ircii, kopete, and ejabberd's IRC clients.  
None have this.

> > Jabber prevents this by providing a real presence system.
>
> IRC has a real presence system, too.

An /away command nobody uses doesn't a presence system make.

> > Jabber provides all the same "modes" IRC does in group chat, except
> > bans actually work because they're not stupidly tied to some arbitrary
> > netmask.
>
> Well, there's one "advantage".
>
> > Nicknames changes, joins and parts aren't spammed to the channel
> > unless your client adds them in for you (but changes are still
> > reflected in the listing of who is in the chat).
>
> Joins and parts you already mentioned. Nickname changes? I wouldn't know
> why the fsck you *wouldn't* want to be informed of those.

Because nobody changes their nicknames on IRC anymore, it's always from 
something like "retard" to "retard-doingMyWife" or something similarly 
presence-related.

> > Jabber networks don't go on begging sprees for funding.
>
> Hell yes they do. My Jabber server administrator has sent me some
> "please support my bandwidth" request in the past.

Switch servers.  You can still get to the same group chats from any Jabber 
server.  So far, that one Jabber admin that doesn't quite get it out of 
dozens.

> > OFTC will invariably spam you like every other IRC network since the
> > dawn of time the first moment they get more than a few users.
>
> As it is, that hasn't happened yet. Can we talk about things that are
> actually happening, rather than things that *might* happen at some point
> in the undefined future, please?

So OFTC is the one IRC network that does get it so far.  Good for them.  Don't 
expect it to last.

> > IRC was a good early effort, but 20 years have passed and IRC is still
> > plagued by the same problems it started with and shows no signs of
> > improvement over time, just like Windows.  Isn't it time the world
> > moved on already?
>
> Move on to what? A protocol that broadcasts whether I'm online to
> everyone I've ever chatted with?

Jabber doesn't do that, nor am I sure I understand where you get that 
impression.  You have to explicitly authorize people to subscribe to your 
presence information, it's not something that gets broadcast to other users 
without your approval.

-- 
Paul Johnson
Email and IM (XMPP & Google Talk): [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Jabber: Because it's time to move forward  http://ursine.ca/Ursine:Jabber


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Re: irc.debian.org

[Marco d'Itri]

[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

>I'm in favour as well.
I wonder, do you and the other "me too" people also have a reason to
justify switching?

-- 
ciao,
Marco


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Re: irc.debian.org

[Jeff McAdams]

I don't have a dog in this hunt, but some of the characterizations here
were a bit off so I thought I should point out some misconceptions.

Wouter Verhelst wrote:
> On Tue, May 02, 2006 at 03:52:33PM -0700, Paul Johnson wrote:
>> Jabber prevents this by providing a real presence system.

> IRC has a real presence system, too.

Hardly.  It has "away", yes, but that's hardly a real/full presense system.

Jabber, being a real presence system, allows someone's presence to be
unobtrusively signaled (ie, not in channel, but still proactively
shown).  IRC has no such capability, either its reactive (when I send a
message or do a whois or related, I get indication of it) or it spams
the channel.  (Yes, I use IRC regularly, the presense capabilities in
Jabber are tremendously better than those found in IRC)

>> Nicknames changes, joins and parts aren't spammed to the channel
>> unless your client adds them in for you (but changes are still
>> reflected in the listing of who is in the chat).

> Joins and parts you already mentioned. Nickname changes? I wouldn't know
> why the fsck you *wouldn't* want to be informed of those.

I don't want them spammed into the channel, but they should be reflected
in a visible way, ie, out of band of the channel.

>> Jabber networks don't go on begging sprees for funding.

> Hell yes they do. My Jabber server administrator has sent me some
> "please support my bandwidth" request in the past.

Then switch servers.  Because of open federation, its unlikely you'll
lose access to any of the resources (ie, chatrooms and other stuff) that
you had access to previously.

None of the annoying silo's that you get with IRC networks (unless you
consider AIM vs Yahoo! vs MSN, but I don't think that's much of an issue
here).

>> IRC was a good early effort, but 20 years have passed and IRC is still
>> plagued by the same problems it started with and shows no signs of
>> improvement over time, just like Windows.  Isn't it time the world
>> moved on already?

> Move on to what? A protocol that broadcasts whether I'm online to
> everyone I've ever chatted with?

1) you can remove subscription presence from a user
2) in some clients you can log in without announcing presence as well,
though I will acknowledge that its less useful that way

> Thanks, but no thanks. Jabber has its place as an IM protocol, but not
> as a group chat thing; IRC is way better there.

Suffice it to say, I strongly disagree.  Jabber has *much* better
mechanisms for supporting group chat scenarios.  Perhaps there aren't
any clients that you like for group chatting in IRC, I won't argue
that...but please don't say that the protocol isn't as adapted to it
because Jabber has much better capabilities, they just need to be
exposed in the clients if they aren't there already.
-- 
Jeff McAdams
"They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a
little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety."
   -- Benjamin Franklin



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Re: irc.debian.org

[Marco d'Itri]

[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

>The problem is that the high amount of disconnection one gets from freenode
>makes this a pain, especially as it is not clear for clients like irssi when
Do you? This is unusual, I have clients connected to freenode for many
weeks at a time. Maybe we should discuss this offline to better debug
which kind of issues you are having.

>you are allowed to post or not, as the error message does not appear in the
>/query channel, but in the log one, and it doesn't even specify who you tried
>to /query and was blocked.
I have always considered this an irssi misfeature. :-)
(Anyway, it can be easily corrected.)

>You mentioned some auto-identify scripts, care to give an example of how that
>would work and respond to both above problems ? 
The purpose of such a script is to automatically identify you to
nickserv at connection time. Actually, you do not even need a script for
freenode: just configure your client to use the nickserv password as the
server password (if you use irssi: /help server).
This is documented in the network FAQs, in the section "What's the
easiest way to identify to nickserv when I connect to freenode?":
http://freenode.net/faq.shtml#identify .

>Also, i guess that if you allow none-reg /querying, this leaves you open to
>wide amount of irc-spam that has been circulating in freenode, and supposedly
>oftc is (still) less vulnerable to this.
Currently spam is not a major issue. OFTC AFAIK is currently not a
target of turkish kiddies, but this could change any day like it
happened to freenode.

-- 
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Marco


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Re: irc.debian.org

[Marco d'Itri]

[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

>I'm thinking that what he's *really* saying is "there're so many people
>whom I can't talk to this way that it's almost impossible".
Which is hard to believe since he is a registered user who configured
his account to receive messages from unregistered users and so is not
limited in any way. I wonder if I am still missing something.

-- 
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Marco


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Re: irc.debian.org

[Yves-Alexis Perez]

On Tue, 2006-05-02 at 15:52 -0700, Paul Johnson wrote:
> By design, IRC encourages people to do truly obnoxious things, like
> spamming 
> the channel to announce they're going away, or indicating their status
> with 
> nicknames (which also spams the channel). 

If *users* announce they're away, it'll be spam no matter if it's in an
IRC channel or on Jabber. And I've seen a lot more people announcing
their status in their IM-nickname than is their IRC-nickname (9 chars
for nick pwnz)

>  You also get spammed on IRC 
> whenever someone joins or leaves a channel. Jabber prevents this by 
> providing a real presence system.

you can ignore this in IRC too.

>   Jabber provides all the same "modes" IRC 
> does in group chat, except bans actually work because they're not
> stupidly 
> tied to some arbitrary netmask. 

yeah. ban is tied to user account ? who prevents an annoying user to
creates a lot of annoying accounts ?

>  Nicknames changes, joins and parts aren't 
> spammed to the channel unless your client adds them in for you (but
> changes 
> are still reflected in the listing of who is in the chat). 

you mean, like on irc ?

>  Jabber networks 
> don't go on begging sprees for funding.  OFTC will invariably spam you
> like 
> every other IRC network since the dawn of time the first moment they
> get more 
> than a few users. 

i'm sure there are jabber network which do that. but you can use a
gateway which doesnt. like using an irc network which doesnt do that.


Ok, so it's a flameware irc vs jabber ? On -project ? 
Duh.

I'm not really used to thoses flames, but I thought they were taking
place on -devel. The initial post was about moving *irc*.debian.org from
an irc network to another. If you don't want to use irc, nobody forces
you. But why posting here a mail that has nothing to do with the initial
message ?

-- 
Yves-Alexis Perez


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Re: irc.debian.org

[Wouter Verhelst]

On Tue, May 02, 2006 at 03:52:33PM -0700, Paul Johnson wrote:
> On Tuesday 02 May 2006 08:40, Cord Beermann wrote:
> > >Why not move it to Jabber?  More people use and know what Jabber is these
> > > days than IRC.
> >
> > Jabber doesn't have any useable non-graphic Clients.
> 
> So write one or grab one of the existing ones and make it not suck.

As it is, IRC *does* have non-sucking non-graphic clients. If you think
people should switch to Jabber, I think you ought to write such a
client, not someone who's not interested in using Jabber in the first
place.

> > for the usual one to one communication it might be ok, but for
> > groupchat (and thats what most people do on IRC it simply sucks.
> 
> By design, IRC encourages people to do truly obnoxious things, like spamming 
> the channel to announce they're going away,

That's not really the design of IRC; rather, it's the design of some
clients.

> or indicating their status with nicknames (which also spams the
> channel).  You also get spammed on IRC whenever someone joins or
> leaves a channel.

Most IRC clients allow those to be switched off. Personally, I happen to
like them.

> Jabber prevents this by providing a real presence system.

IRC has a real presence system, too.

> Jabber provides all the same "modes" IRC does in group chat, except
> bans actually work because they're not stupidly tied to some arbitrary
> netmask.

Well, there's one "advantage".

> Nicknames changes, joins and parts aren't spammed to the channel
> unless your client adds them in for you (but changes are still
> reflected in the listing of who is in the chat).

Joins and parts you already mentioned. Nickname changes? I wouldn't know
why the fsck you *wouldn't* want to be informed of those.

> Jabber networks don't go on begging sprees for funding.

Hell yes they do. My Jabber server administrator has sent me some
"please support my bandwidth" request in the past.

> OFTC will invariably spam you like every other IRC network since the
> dawn of time the first moment they get more than a few users.

As it is, that hasn't happened yet. Can we talk about things that are
actually happening, rather than things that *might* happen at some point
in the undefined future, please?

> IRC was a good early effort, but 20 years have passed and IRC is still
> plagued by the same problems it started with and shows no signs of
> improvement over time, just like Windows.  Isn't it time the world
> moved on already?

Move on to what? A protocol that broadcasts whether I'm online to
everyone I've ever chatted with?

Thanks, but no thanks. Jabber has its place as an IM protocol, but not
as a group chat thing; IRC is way better there.

-- 
Fun will now commence
  -- Seven Of Nine, "Ashes to Ashes", stardate 53679.4


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Re: irc.debian.org

[Michael Poole]

Paul Johnson writes:

> By design, IRC encourages people to do truly obnoxious things, like spamming 
> the channel to announce they're going away, or indicating their status with 
> nicknames (which also spams the channel).  You also get spammed on IRC 
> whenever someone joins or leaves a channel.  Jabber prevents this by 
> providing a real presence system.

Wrong.  It is (bad) social habits that cause people to notify channels
when they go away, not the design of IRC.  (In many channels, that
kind of antisocial spam is grounds for a ban.)  IRC's AWAY, WHO,
WHOIS, and related messages provide adequate presence notification.

Michael Poole


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Re: irc.debian.org

[Paul Johnson]

On Tuesday 02 May 2006 08:40, Cord Beermann wrote:
> >Why not move it to Jabber?  More people use and know what Jabber is these
> > days than IRC.
>
> Jabber doesn't have any useable non-graphic Clients.

So write one or grab one of the existing ones and make it not suck.

> for the usual one 
> to one communication it might be ok, but for groupchat (and thats what
> most people do on IRC it simply sucks.

By design, IRC encourages people to do truly obnoxious things, like spamming 
the channel to announce they're going away, or indicating their status with 
nicknames (which also spams the channel).  You also get spammed on IRC 
whenever someone joins or leaves a channel.  Jabber prevents this by 
providing a real presence system.  Jabber provides all the same "modes" IRC 
does in group chat, except bans actually work because they're not stupidly 
tied to some arbitrary netmask.  Nicknames changes, joins and parts aren't 
spammed to the channel unless your client adds them in for you (but changes 
are still reflected in the listing of who is in the chat).  Jabber networks 
don't go on begging sprees for funding.  OFTC will invariably spam you like 
every other IRC network since the dawn of time the first moment they get more 
than a few users.

IRC was a good early effort, but 20 years have passed and IRC is still plagued 
by the same problems it started with and shows no signs of improvement over 
time, just like Windows.  Isn't it time the world moved on already?

-- 
Paul Johnson
Email and IM (XMPP & Google Talk): [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Jabber: Because it's time to move forward  http://ursine.ca/Ursine:Jabber


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Google summer of code

[Zejn Gasper]

Hello!

I intend to apply for Google's summer of code for Debian's I18N infrastructure 
plan. Is there somebody I should discuss this with or should I just submit 
the application?

Kind regards,
Gašper Žejn

Re: Google summer of code

[Martin Michlmayr]

* Gasper Zejn <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> [2006-05-02 22:36]:
> I intend to apply for Google's summer of code for Debian's I18N
> infrastructure plan. Is there somebody I should discuss this with or
> should I just submit the application?

Reviewing the discussions that happened on the debian-i18n list
recently would certainly be a good idea.
-- 
Martin Michlmayr
http://www.cyrius.com/


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Google summer of code

[Gasper Zejn]

Hello!

I intend to apply for Google's summer of code for Debian's I18N infrastructure
plan. Is there somebody I should discuss this with or should I just submit the
application?

Kind regards,
Ga?per ?ejn


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Re: irc.debian.org

[Bernhard R. Link]

* Joerg Jaspert <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> [060501 23:12]:
> On 10641 March 1977, Bernhard R. Link wrote:
> 
> > - network stability: oftc annoys with many netsplits lately. This might
> >   be temporary, but in the last month it was extreme.
> 
> No, some were there, but not more than in Feenode.

Well, perhaps I'm around at the wrong times. But in the last weeks
I had one netsplit per day on avarage on oftc, but I cannot remember 
when the last one was on freenode. (At least when there where some
some time ago there was some message they were changing something and
that it will stop soon and it stoped soon, with oftc it just happen
several times every next day.)

> > - nickserv/chanserv services differ. I'm receiving the expression
> >   freenodes are more sophisticated, but that might just be usage.
> 
> What are you missing, there is Chanserv/nickserv too?

Taking a closer look I guess most feature are available on oftc, too,
but only a bit worse documented. First example: the chanserv command
drop gets a help text from oftc's chanserv when explicitly requested,
but it is neither in the verbose list of commands of help, not in the
short "other commands" list it shows.

Hochachtungsvoll,
Bernhard R. Link


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Re: irc.debian.org

[Sven Luther]

On Tue, May 02, 2006 at 02:24:52PM +0200, Marco d'Itri wrote:
> [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
> 
> >I get and send a lot of /msg in my debian releated work. for me this is
> To users who have not been long enough on the network to register?

The problem is that the high amount of disconnection one gets from freenode
makes this a pain, especially as it is not clear for clients like irssi when
you are allowed to post or not, as the error message does not appear in the
/query channel, but in the log one, and it doesn't even specify who you tried
to /query and was blocked.

You mentioned some auto-identify scripts, care to give an example of how that
would work and respond to both above problems ? 

Also, i guess that if you allow none-reg /querying, this leaves you open to
wide amount of irc-spam that has been circulating in freenode, and supposedly
oftc is (still) less vulnerable to this.

I personally am on both networks, and probably won't notice much, but the
private /query problem sure has been a pain.

Friendly,

Sven Luther


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Re: irc.debian.org

[Margarita Manterola]

On 4/30/06, Steve McIntyre <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:


Thoughts?


I'm in favour as well.

--
Besos,
Marga

Re: irc.debian.org

[Manoj Srivastava]

On 2 May 2006, Manoj Srivastava spake thusly:

> I was pretty neutral about whether we should pull
> irc.debian.org away from freenode,  but a recent incident makes me
> wonder how developer friendly freenode is anymore.

Apparently, the incident of k-lining me was an errant and buggy
 script, and not policy (and I would have realized that had I not been
 up for 36 hour straight when I wrote that email).

Given that, I am back to being nuetral. I have a number of
 channels that would remain on freenode for (SELinux, rockbox, amarok,
 nlug), and others only live on oftc (debian-kernel, spi,
 debian-women), so I'll probably auto-connect to both (and since I use
 a modern front end like emacs, conneting to multiple servers and
 bitlbee is not a concern personally :)

manoj
-- 
You will be the victim of a bizarre joke.
Manoj Srivastava   <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>  
1024D/BF24424C print 4966 F272 D093 B493 410B  924B 21BA DABB BF24 424C


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Re: irc.debian.org

[Wouter Verhelst]

On Tue, May 02, 2006 at 06:34:24PM +0200, Marco d'Itri wrote:
> [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
> 
> >> >I get and send a lot of /msg in my debian releated work. for me this is
> >> To users who have not been long enough on the network to register?
> >no, not to those and not to those others that feel that they are made to
> >jump through hoops and neither to those who left already. only to the
> >rest.
> So you are saying that it does not actually inconvenience you, but you
> are opposing this feature on principle?

I'm thinking that what he's *really* saying is "there're so many people
whom I can't talk to this way that it's almost impossible".

-- 
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  -- Seven Of Nine, "Ashes to Ashes", stardate 53679.4


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Re: irc.debian.org

[Marco d'Itri]

[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

>> >I get and send a lot of /msg in my debian releated work. for me this is
>> To users who have not been long enough on the network to register?
>no, not to those and not to those others that feel that they are made to
>jump through hoops and neither to those who left already. only to the
>rest.
So you are saying that it does not actually inconvenience you, but you
are opposing this feature on principle?

-- 
ciao,
Marco


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Re: irc.debian.org

[Joey Hess]

Peter Samuelson wrote:
> And as for Debian development, I receive even fewer private messages
> related to that.  Do the rest of you?  What aspects of Debian
> development warrant private conversations?  I would think most things
> would be appropriate to discuss either in public or in small, focused
> channels.

I field large amounts of debian development stuff in /msg. Most of it
is stupid debhelper and debconf questions. :-) A significant amount of
the rest is other technical stuff too involved or special-purpose
to be very interesting to others. For example, approximatly once per
week I /msg elmo "plz update the tasksel overrides file from svn". It's
important that elmo get that message, it's useless for other people to
see it, and we have zero irc chanels in common. Some smaller fraction might
be more debian-private related, or just general social interaction.

Just as I don't walk around with a webcam and a mic every time I meet
someone in a pub and talk about Debian stuff there, I don't think this
is a big deal or an openness issue (nor are the private emails, which
are about the same).

This (the private messaging, not the pubcrawling) might have gone up a
bit since I stopped participating in either #debian-devel. FWIW, one
reason I stopped is because of the useless and highly annoying split of
that channel, and I can't see ever returning to that channel until the
two have somehow merged back together.

-- 
see shy jo


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Re: irc.debian.org

[Cord Beermann]

Hallo! Du (Paul Johnson) hast geschrieben:

>On Sunday 30 April 2006 11:34, Steve McIntyre wrote:
>> I've heard it suggested by a variety of people that we should move the
>> official irc.debian.org alias away from freenode to oftc. I can see
>> that more and more of my own Debian IRC discussions are on oftc, to
>> the extent that I'm (currently) not on any freenode channels at
>> all.

I strongly second to move to OFTC.

why? lilo spammed me some years ago to get some funding for freenode
(which ment in that case that he wanted to be paid for running
freenode), so i decided to not use it. Nothing against funding, and
adding notes to websites and motds, but getting a daily wallop was
annoying.

>Why not move it to Jabber?  More people use and know what Jabber is these days 
>than IRC.

Jabber doesn't have any useable non-graphic Clients. for the usual one
to one communication it might be ok, but for groupchat (and thats what
most people do on IRC it simply sucks.

Cord


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DebConf6 Video Streaming "Mirrors" wanted

[Joerg Jaspert]

[This is a mail to multiple lists, please only reply to
[EMAIL PROTECTED], thanks. (Headers should be set for it).]

Dear Mirror-Admin,

we are looking for servers around the world for the streaming video
service of this years DebConf6 in Mexico, where we will (try to) provide
live streaming of the Talks, Workshops and probably various other
occurences. For this we need your help, to have enough bandwidth
available, as we do not know yet how many people will use this
service. Its the first time we do live streaming from a Debian
Conference.

We will use icecast2 for the streaming, using ogg theora as codecs,
streaming in low resolution, and will provide a suitable configuration for
Debian systems (packages for sarge plus config files/help), to make
providing a streaming mirror as easy as possible. The needed information
will be mailed to all participating mirror admins, as soon as we have a
final, working and tested configuration available.

The technical setup will look similar to the following:

We will have one streaming server in Mexico, which will stream to one
machine in the net with decent bandwith. From there
(it will be named master.video.debconf.org) all servers will get their
feed and serve all the clients.
The clients will connect to video.debconf.org *or* one of the
geographical subdomains, eu.video.debconf.org, us.video.debconf.org,
asia.video.debconf.org. We will use DNS RoundRobin to split the load
between all participating machines.

If you want to help us with your bandwidth please sent the following
information to [EMAIL PROTECTED]:

  - The IP of the server

  - How much bandwith you have available

  - The location of it.

  - the email-address and the name of the person responsible for
installing software on the machine, ie. our contact for the setup

  - If you are in the US and have a fat pipe: Would you be willing to
play the master that serves the other servers?
(We have one offer, but thats in .eu, so it would make a bit more
sense using on near to Mexico for the master machine. :) )

We only need the streaming servers from may 10th til the 22nd of may,
after that the files will be available in multiple resolutions for
download at 
http://meetings-archive.debian.net/pub/debian-meetings/2006/debconf6/

Thank you for your help!

-- 
bye Joerg
 schneidet nie chilis und wascht euch dann _nicht_ die hände und reibt 
euch dann an der nase.
 uargs, wie das brennt
 hammer. das ist ja schlimmer als die dinger zu essen...


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Re: advertising with http://lists.debian.org/debian-l10n-portuguese/2004/05/msg00047.html

[Henrique de Moraes Holschuh]

On Mon, 01 May 2006, stanley jenkins wrote:
> I am looking to advertise with debian.org PLEASE
> FORWARD THIS ON TO THE appropriate person. I am
> looking to have a banner ad or some type of
> advertisment on your site at the following page: 
> http://lists.debian.org/debian-l10n-portuguese/2004/05/msg00047.html

Which is a page that contains SPAM, and does *not* contain the "report spam"
logic.

Note that the breakage is present in the archives of almost all
mailinglists, and covers a big period in the *middle* of the archive.

This needs to be fixed ASAP.  It has been broken for a *long* time, although
I doubt a bug report about it was properly filed.

> Please let me know what I can do to set this up,

Case in point.  We are now looking like we welcome spammer scum.

-- 
  "One disk to rule them all, One disk to find them. One disk to bring
  them all and in the darkness grind them. In the Land of Redmond
  where the shadows lie." -- The Silicon Valley Tarot
  Henrique Holschuh


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Re: irc.debian.org

[Andreas Schuldei]

On Tue, May 02, 2006 at 02:24:52PM +0200, Marco d'Itri wrote:
> [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
> 
> >I get and send a lot of /msg in my debian releated work. for me this is
> To users who have not been long enough on the network to register?

no, not to those and not to those others that feel that they are made to
jump through hoops and neither to those who left already. only to the
rest.


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Re: irc.debian.org

[cobaco (aka Bart Cornelis)]

On Tuesday 02 May 2006 12:36, Jon Dowland wrote:
> At 1146403978 past the epoch, Paul Johnson wrote:
> > Why not move it to Jabber?  More people use and know what Jabber is
> > these days than IRC.
>
> Really? I'd love to see some figures.

can't find much hard numbers, let along comparisons between IRC-use and 
Jabber use, but here is the general info regarding jabber use I found:
- jabber.com appearently had 4 milion licensed users back in 2003 [1] with
  an additional 6 milion estimated open source users at that time thus
  surpassing the number of ICQ users [2]
- since then we've had xmpp (the jabber protocol) published as RFC,
- Jabber Journal 23 [3] mentions that there are over 10.000 activer jabber
  servers on the public network (so not counting those behind company
  firewalls), the same page also names a number of big deployments (such as 
  France Telecom, Bellsouth, Orange,  AT&T, EDS, FedEx, HP, Oracle, and
  Sun)
- Apple added xmpp support to iChat [3] [9].
- googletalk uses xmpp [4] and is now federated [10]
- according to the latest jabber journal IBM is adding xmpp support to Lotus
  Sametime [4]
- sun's IM server uses xmpp [5]
- [6] lists 13 different jabber server implementations (of which 7 are
  proprietary ones from different companies), [7] lists a gazillion clients, 
  [8] lists a gazillion software libraries for using xmpp 

[1] http://www.jabber.com/index.cgi?CONTENT_ID=357
[2] http://news.zdnet.co.uk/software/applications/0,39020384,39117160,00.htm
[3] http://www.jabber.org/journal/2005-06-24.shtml
[4] http://www.jabber.org/journal/2006-03-24.shtml
[5] http://www.sun.com/software/products/instant_messaging/
[6] http://www.jabber.org/software/servers.shtml
[7] http://www.jabber.org/software/clients.shtml
[8] http://www.jabber.org/software/libraries.shtml
[9] http://www.apple.com/macosx/features/ichat/
[10] http://googletalk.blogspot.com/2006/01/xmpp-federation.html
-- 
Cheers, cobaco (aka Bart Cornelis)
  
1. Encrypted mail preferred (GPG KeyID: 0x86624ABB)
2. Plain-text mail recommended since I move html and double
format mails to a low priority folder (they're mainly spam)


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Re: irc.debian.org

[Marco d'Itri]

[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

>I get and send a lot of /msg in my debian releated work. for me this is
To users who have not been long enough on the network to register?

-- 
ciao,
Marco


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Re: Debian and professional certifications

[Ottavio Caruso]

--- MJ Ray <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> Ottavio Caruso <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> 
> Well, that's a bit offensive.

Well, my webmail does not allow customised headers
apart from reply-to. If you can suggest me a better
alternative, I'm all ears.
Thank you for your contribution.

Ottavio Caruso

__
Do You Yahoo!?
Tired of spam?  Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around 
http://mail.yahoo.com 


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Re: Debian and professional certifications

[Ottavio Caruso]

--- Aníbal Monsalve Salazar <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:


> 
> So, the NM process could then be renamed "Debian
> Professional
> Certification".

I'm sorrythe my post has been inserted into the wrong
thread. Some wrong headers on my webmail, perhaps.

And I'm soory I've been interted into the 'bouncers',
I have to modify the return address all the time.

Ottavio Caruso

__
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Re: summer of code: what's next?

[Andreas Barth]

* Petter Reinholdtsen ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) [060502 13:30]:
> 
> [Baruch Even]
> > Mentors should comment and grade proposals on
> > http://code.google.com/soc/debian/open.html
> 
> Right.  I guess I should have a look then.  Just got 'Invalid user'
> when I had a peek now.

You need to be approved by Baruch (as well as I need that :).


Cheers,
Andi
-- 
  http://home.arcor.de/andreas-barth/


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Re: summer of code: what's next?

[Petter Reinholdtsen]

[Baruch Even]
> Mentors should comment and grade proposals on
> http://code.google.com/soc/debian/open.html

Right.  I guess I should have a look then.  Just got 'Invalid user'
when I had a peek now.

I've already been contacted by a person interested in working on one
of my proposed projects, and already gave him some clues on his more
detailed project plan.  I guess that means the studens are already
pouring into SoC. :)

Friendly
-- 
Petter Reinholdtsen


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Re: irc.debian.org

[Marco d'Itri]

[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

>One might think private messages are useful in user support, but
>#debian actually has a channel policy asking users not to send them
>without permission.  As a result, I don't get many private messages
>from #debian users.
ACK.

-- 
ciao,
Marco


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Re: irc.debian.org

[Jon Dowland]

At 1146403978 past the epoch, Paul Johnson wrote:
> Why not move it to Jabber?  More people use and know what Jabber is
> these days than IRC.

Really? I'd love to see some figures.

-- 
Jon Dowland
http://alcopop.org/


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Re: irc.debian.org

[Steve McIntyre]

On Tue, May 02, 2006 at 12:16:14PM +0200, Andreas Schuldei wrote:
>On Tue, May 02, 2006 at 04:47:22AM -0500, Peter Samuelson wrote:
>> [Wouter Verhelst]
>> > Only if they're lucky enough to try to ask someone who has
>> > NOIDPRIVMSG disabled.
>> 
>> And as for Debian development, I receive even fewer private messages
>> related to that.  Do the rest of you?  What aspects of Debian
>> development warrant private conversations?  I would think most things
>> would be appropriate to discuss either in public or in small, focused
>> channels.
>
>I get and send a lot of /msg in my debian releated work. for me this is
>a reason to favour a move to oftc.

Ditto.

-- 
Steve McIntyre, Cambridge, UK.[EMAIL PROTECTED]
"The problem with defending the purity of the English language is that
 English is about as pure as a cribhouse whore. We don't just borrow words; on
 occasion, English has pursued other languages down alleyways to beat them
 unconscious and rifle their pockets for new vocabulary."  -- James D. Nicoll


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Re: summer of code: what's next?

[Baruch Even]

Stefano Zacchiroli wrote:
> On Sun, Apr 23, 2006 at 05:37:21PM +1000, Anthony Towns wrote:
> 
>>As has been mentioned on the -project and -private lists, Debian has
>>joined the Google Summer of Code programme, and project ideas are being
>>collected on the wiki [1]. Our participation is being administered
>>by Baruch Even, whom you should contact if the idea of spending some
>>of Google's money on improving Debian and giving a student some free
>>software experience sounds like a good idea to you.
> 
> 
> AFAIK the period for proposals is over.
> 
> Baruch, could you please summarize the next steps for the Debian people
> who proposed projects?

Students should now send proposals through
http://code.google.com/soc/student_step1.html

Mentors should comment and grade proposals on
http://code.google.com/soc/debian/open.html

You can and should review/grade/comment on any proposal not just ones
you want to mentor.

Baruch


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Re: irc.debian.org

[Andreas Schuldei]

On Tue, May 02, 2006 at 04:47:22AM -0500, Peter Samuelson wrote:
> [Wouter Verhelst]
> > Only if they're lucky enough to try to ask someone who has
> > NOIDPRIVMSG disabled.
> 
> And as for Debian development, I receive even fewer private messages
> related to that.  Do the rest of you?  What aspects of Debian
> development warrant private conversations?  I would think most things
> would be appropriate to discuss either in public or in small, focused
> channels.

I get and send a lot of /msg in my debian releated work. for me this is
a reason to favour a move to oftc.


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Re: Debian and professional certifications

[Wouter Verhelst]

On Mon, May 01, 2006 at 11:57:24PM -0300, Gustavo Noronha Silva wrote:
> Em Dom, 2006-04-30 às 13:37 -0300, Felipe Augusto van de Wiel (faw)
> escreveu:
> > > Debian is a volunteer project and has neither the inclination or
> > > capability to run professional certifications, and is not involved or
> > > partnering with any other organization to provide such. This does not
> > > prevent other interested parties from providing such certification, but
> > > Debian itself has no part in them.
> > >
> > > I have personally no opinion about professional certification.
> > 
> > Christoph Lameter [1]used to be Debian representative with
> > LPI. I don't know if I misunderstood, but I always thought that
> > Debian, in some way, supports (or recommends) LPI tests/exams as a
> > way to get a Professional Certification that involves Debian
> > knowledge.
> 
> I don't see it this way, and I personally do not support Professional
> Certification, be it LPI or any other. I would not like to see Debian
> supporting them either.

Why?

Personally, I'm not convinced of the use of certifications either, and
much prefer to go by references. However, they have their use, as they
allow for some guarantee that a given person at least has an
understanding of how the system works -- although I'll agree that people
with references but no certifications are usually preferable over people
with certifications but no references.

What's your objection to them?

-- 
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  -- Seven Of Nine, "Ashes to Ashes", stardate 53679.4


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Re: irc.debian.org

[Peter Samuelson]

> On Mon, May 01, 2006 at 01:24:15AM +0200, Marco d'Itri wrote:
> > If you want to receive their privated messages then *you* can
> > disable NOIDPRIVMSG and they will not even know about it.

[Wouter Verhelst]
> Only if they're lucky enough to try to ask someone who has
> NOIDPRIVMSG disabled.

What I can't figure out is why this is such a big deal.  I mean, we're
not talking about a social IRC network, we're talking about the network
to use for discussions related to Debian.

One might think private messages are useful in user support, but
#debian actually has a channel policy asking users not to send them
without permission.  As a result, I don't get many private messages
from #debian users.

And as for Debian development, I receive even fewer private messages
related to that.  Do the rest of you?  What aspects of Debian
development warrant private conversations?  I would think most things
would be appropriate to discuss either in public or in small, focused
channels.

I dunno, it just surprises me that people other than really heavy IRC
users would even notice the effect of this freenode default.  Not that
it's exactly a _secret_ - I mean, the information is one click away
from http://freenode.net/ (the link mysteriously titled "using the
network").


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Re: irc.debian.org

[Marco d'Itri]

[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

>After some discussion earlier in the day about music players,
> ipods, and  free software one can flash on ipods, I decided to clean
> up my variant of the Green5 rockbox theme and presented screenshots
> on [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>
>The images are still at
> http://people.debian.org/~srivasta/dump_060502-005528.bmp 
> http://people.debian.org/~srivasta/dump_060502-005659.bmp
>   fairly innocuous, as you can see.
>
>I was immediately klined from freenode, no if, and, or buts --
> apparently on the grounds that Spam is not tolerated. Why screenshots
> of free software players are Spam on a debian development channel is
> beyond me -- but obviously  this is not a good thing to happen on a
> project channel.

Freenode does not have such a policy, I think that this is the result of
a buggy script used by a staff member. While waiting for an explanation
from him, I removed the K line. I apologize for the troubles.

-- 
ciao,
Marco


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Re: irc.debian.org

[Lars Wirzenius]

ti, 2006-05-02 kello 10:48 +0200, Marco d'Itri kirjoitti:
> Hardly documented? It's clearly explained in the FAQ page on the web
> site, and a link to this is in the message received by blocked users.
> It does not appear to be hidden to me. Do you have any suggestions to
> improve this?

How does this help the recipient of a message to learn about the
situation? It is the recipient that needs to change the setting, after
all.

-- 
On IRC, we sometimes like to watch silence.


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Re: irc.debian.org

[Marco d'Itri]

[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

>> >>> I agree with Steve. While I agree that freenode has many flaws (the
>> >>> biggest being NOIDPRIVMSG), I find that while I am in Debian channels on
>> >> Exactly, why is an optional feature such a big flaw?
>> >Because it's the default and practically no one changes it. This is a
>> Maybe because actually it's not such a big deal? :-)
>More likely, because it's hardly documented that this is the default and
>because not many people know how to switch it off.
Hardly documented? It's clearly explained in the FAQ page on the web
site, and a link to this is in the message received by blocked users.
It does not appear to be hidden to me. Do you have any suggestions to
improve this?

-- 
ciao,
Marco


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Re: Debian and professional certifications

[MJ Ray]

"Matthew R. Dempsky" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Yeah, using stupid, obviously bogus addresses is only acceptable in the 
> Mail-Followup-To field:

If your mail client acts on random non-standard headers, it's buggy.
-- 
MJR/slef
Laux nur mia opinio: vidu http://people.debian.org/~mjr/
Bv sekvu http://www.uk.debian.org/MailingLists/#codeofconduct


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