Re: The powerpc port should be removed from etch release candidates ...
On Thu, May 04, 2006 at 08:06:32AM +0200, Sven Luther wrote: > On Wed, May 03, 2006 at 10:45:46PM +0200, Sven Mueller wrote: > > Sven Luther wrote on 01/05/2006 08:21: > > > On Mon, May 01, 2006 at 02:20:09AM +0200, Frans Pop wrote: > > > > > >>The reason that I did not inform you was because things were already very > > >>heated at the moment and because you were at that time still very > > >>concerned about the welfare of your mother. I thought it was better not > > >>to add to that. > > > > > > And what have you gained ? What did you expect would happen once i > > > noticed ? > > > > He thought he would gain not adding more pressure to you. He was wrong > > and he apologized for that. Stop picking on him, please. > > My believe is that their intentions was to get ride of me, and by > doing so in one of the worst possible moment of my live, ... Please, Sven. The first step in getting along with people is 'assume they have the best intentions, until proven otherwise.' I do not see any prove why getting rid of you would be Frans' intention. In fact, Frans has publicly stated that this was _not_ his intention, but that in fact something else was. If you try to second-guess people and try to tell them that they're really trying to do something else than what they're publically claiming they're doing, the only thing you'll gain is that they'll be more careful in working or communicating with you in the future. In the end, you'll end up on an island on your own. In the absense of an explanation from Frans, I can see why you would think that your commit access would be an attack on your person. After being given an explanation, however -- and one that makes sense -- I don't think it's fair to continue to do so. > > > Apologizes accepted, but this is not enough. > > > > Either you accept the apology or you don't. There is no "but". > > Well, the real problem is that they don't admit that they had no valid reason > to remove the commit access, and that it was an abuse of their power. It was not. Frans acted in good faith; he made a mistake, but admitted that. [...] > > > So, this is a first step, but i need more. I need : > > > > > > - the commit access being restored. > > > > I would second that request, if it was more humble. You don't "need" > > commit access restored, you just want it. So please be so kind to > > actually state the true thing. > > Well. I am not sure. The removal of the commit access means that it is > acceptable in debian to hinder the work of someone just because he has > annoyed you or you personally dislikes him. It doesn't "mean" anything. Mistakes can't "mean" anything. > Would you think that someone from the DAM/DSA disliking a fellow DD is enough > to remove his upload rights ? No. Luckily, that never happened. As is the same for d-i commit access. Frans didn't remove your commit rights because you annoyed him; he removed your commit rights because you publically and dramatically announced that you would no longer work on the PowerPC port for d-i. When people publically state that they'll retire from Debian, they usually lose their upload rights in less than a day. So there's no difference here. [...] > Also, one could argue that the d-i svn repo is the preffered form of > modification for d-i work, since this is clearly where and how the d-i work > is done, and since i contributed GPLed code to it, banning me from the repo > has obvious legalese implication debian should be ashamed of. Err, no. [...] I'm not going to comment on the rest of your mail; you get my point. Please calm down. You're overreacting. -- Fun will now commence -- Seven Of Nine, "Ashes to Ashes", stardate 53679.4 signature.asc Description: Digital signature
Re: advertising with http://lists.debian.org/debian-l10n-portuguese/2004/05/msg00047.html
On Mon, May 01, 2006 at 08:32:46PM -0700, stanley jenkins wrote: > I am looking to advertise with debian.org (...) some type of > advertisment on your site at the following page: > http://lists.debian.org/debian-l10n-portuguese/2004/05/msg00047.html Now would have been a good time to have the old "1000,- USD" per advertisement policy :) -- Lionel -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: The powerpc port should be removed from etch release candidates ...
On Wed, May 03, 2006 at 10:45:46PM +0200, Sven Mueller wrote: > Sven Luther wrote on 01/05/2006 08:21: > > On Mon, May 01, 2006 at 02:20:09AM +0200, Frans Pop wrote: > > > >>The reason that I did not inform you was because things were already very > >>heated at the moment and because you were at that time still very > >>concerned about the welfare of your mother. I thought it was better not > >>to add to that. > > > > And what have you gained ? What did you expect would happen once i noticed ? > > He thought he would gain not adding more pressure to you. He was wrong > and he apologized for that. Stop picking on him, please. My believe is that their intentions was to get ride of me, and by doing so in one of the worst possible moment of my live, ... So, no, i will not let this laps as long as the full problem is not solved. > > Apologizes accepted, but this is not enough. > > Either you accept the apology or you don't. There is no "but". Well, the real problem is that they don't admit that they had no valid reason to remove the commit access, and that it was an abuse of their power. As such, the apology in itself may well be seen as an additional insult, in order to appear rightful without actually doing anything. > > So, this is a first step, but i need more. I need : > > > > - the commit access being restored. > > I would second that request, if it was more humble. You don't "need" > commit access restored, you just want it. So please be so kind to > actually state the true thing. Well. I am not sure. The removal of the commit access means that it is acceptable in debian to hinder the work of someone just because he has annoyed you or you personally dislikes him. Would you think that someone from the DAM/DSA disliking a fellow DD is enough to remove his upload rights ? Or anoying an ftp-master is enough to get his package upload capacity removed ? Or annoying a list master is enough to get you banned from debian lists ? See the controversial decision about debian-devel-announce and assufield as a precedent of how such actions should be taken. This would mean that it would be perfectly acceptable for me to ban Frans from the #debian-kernel irc channel, just because i cannot freely speak there, without him picking on me each time i mention d-i ? Also, one could argue that the d-i svn repo is the preffered form of modification for d-i work, since this is clearly where and how the d-i work is done, and since i contributed GPLed code to it, banning me from the repo has obvious legalese implication debian should be ashamed of. > > - an apology for the lack of decency this action shows. > > You already got that. The apology might have been weaker than you hoped, > but nevertheless, you accepted it (you said: "Apologizes accepted"). No. He just said he apologized for not telling me, not for chosing the moment i was the most fragile, and when i personally asked him to be lenient, a few hours after my mother which i had gone to help, almost died of a respiratory crisis. This is the one i want an apology for, because sorry, but this is in the same class as Andrew Suffield asking us not to send condoleances for Jens's death last year, and it is for behaviour like this that Andrew Suffield was almost expulsed from debian. > > - apologies for continual bashing would be nice, but more important you > > refraining from doing so in the future. When i post, avoid saying things > > like 'its the kernels fault' or otherwise indirectly pointing the finger > > back to me. > > Stop being too sensitive. If someone says "its the kernels fault", why > do you think they are pointing at you? Did you write the whole kernel? So, you believe that something like : There is no problem with initramfs-tools, just a problem with the maintainer of the ppc port who is too quick to jump to conclusions again. is not explicit pointing at me ? I have been getting this kind of thing from Frans since a couple of month now, and yes, it is evident that in this context, Frans was clearly aiming at me, altough in an indirect form. > And it would also be nice if _you_ stopped pointing at various people > (and Frans in particular). Why ? It would be nice, probably, but would it be right ? They have personally caused this problem, so who do you want me to point at ? Or do you want me to say things in a vague or indirect way ? > > On my side, i will follow my one-post-per-thread policy, which i have mostly > > been doing since the last two month, with only two backslides, and those two > > backslides where always triggered by you being bashful, so i have good faith > > that if you change a bit your behaviour, and my personal distress situation > > calmiong down, that this will no more be a problem in the future. > > If you actually both stop letting of your frustration/anger on one > another, but instead talked to each other like most educated people > would do, there soon wouldn't be much anger left
Re: irc.debian.org
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 On 05/02/2006 12:40 PM, Cord Beermann wrote: > Hallo! Du (Paul Johnson) hast geschrieben: >> Why not move it to Jabber? More people use and know what Jabber is these >> days >> than IRC. > > Jabber doesn't have any useable non-graphic Clients. for the usual one > to one communication it might be ok, but for groupchat (and thats what > most people do on IRC it simply sucks. Hmmm... there is always bitlbee. :) It is not a Jabber client, but allows someone to use any irc client to connect to IM networks (like Jabber, GTalk, ICQ). And BTW, switch to Jabber does not determines where irc.debian.org should point to (unless we drop it, which is non-sense). IMHO, having Jabber is another point and discussing it should be dropped on this thread. Maybe, create a wiki page with reasons to move and to not move could help us to check the points (pros and cons) and decide which is better for our users and, of course, for us. Kind regards, - -- Felipe Augusto van de Wiel (faw) "Debian. Freedom to code. Code to freedom!" -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.4.2.2 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with Debian - http://enigmail.mozdev.org iD8DBQFEWVw3CjAO0JDlykYRAtlLAKDGLWXdY6Whnh0m0xzozqMkeyOBKgCeLsZD Bj8FFab4cFFnKkzFzlq3hKc= =ryXr -END PGP SIGNATURE- -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: irc.debian.org
On Wed, May 03, 2006 at 01:41:35AM +0200, Marco d'Itri wrote: > [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: > >I'm in favour as well. > I wonder, do you and the other "me too" people also have a reason to > justify switching? I'm in favour of moving irc.debian.org just as I was last time this came up because of Rob Levin's appalling treatment of #brits back at the time he started the messages begging for money so he could fund his IRC habit as a full time job. OFTC has a constitution and people are elected into roles. See http://www.oftc.net/oftc/Constitution Freenode has an opaque dictatorship run by Rob Levin. Simon. -- UK based domain, email and web hosting ***/ "AAAhhh, I see you have the /* http://www.blackcatnetworks.co.uk/ **/ Machine that goes ping." /** [EMAIL PROTECTED] */ /*** Black Cat Networks / / signature.asc Description: Digital signature
Re: irc.debian.org
On Wed, 03 May 2006, Linas Žvirblis wrote: > Raphael Hertzog wrote: > > > What does +s exactly do? Many more channels have this, #debian-qa and > > #debian.de on OFTC too. So your list is incomplete right now. > > +s stands for "secret". It means that the channel will not be seen on > channel list. It also makes it impossible to tell if a person is on the > channel, unless you are on it yourself. Both #debian-devel are +s and yet they are hardly "secret". The +s is mostly used to avoid being annoyed by random people and is apparently regularly used for development channels (where interested people know the existence of the channel via something else than /list). I don't know if this is a good policy but it looks like many people like it for various reasons like avoiding spam-bots and similar privacy concerns. Cheers, -- Raphaël Hertzog Premier livre français sur Debian GNU/Linux : http://www.ouaza.com/livre/admin-debian/ -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: The powerpc port should be removed from etch release candidates ...
Sven Luther wrote on 01/05/2006 08:21: > On Mon, May 01, 2006 at 02:20:09AM +0200, Frans Pop wrote: > >>The reason that I did not inform you was because things were already very >>heated at the moment and because you were at that time still very >>concerned about the welfare of your mother. I thought it was better not >>to add to that. > > And what have you gained ? What did you expect would happen once i noticed ? He thought he would gain not adding more pressure to you. He was wrong and he apologized for that. Stop picking on him, please. > Apologizes accepted, but this is not enough. Either you accept the apology or you don't. There is no "but". > So, this is a first step, but i need more. I need : > > - the commit access being restored. I would second that request, if it was more humble. You don't "need" commit access restored, you just want it. So please be so kind to actually state the true thing. > - an apology for the lack of decency this action shows. You already got that. The apology might have been weaker than you hoped, but nevertheless, you accepted it (you said: "Apologizes accepted"). > - apologies for continual bashing would be nice, but more important you > refraining from doing so in the future. When i post, avoid saying things > like 'its the kernels fault' or otherwise indirectly pointing the finger > back to me. Stop being too sensitive. If someone says "its the kernels fault", why do you think they are pointing at you? Did you write the whole kernel? And it would also be nice if _you_ stopped pointing at various people (and Frans in particular). > On my side, i will follow my one-post-per-thread policy, which i have mostly > been doing since the last two month, with only two backslides, and those two > backslides where always triggered by you being bashful, so i have good faith > that if you change a bit your behaviour, and my personal distress situation > calmiong down, that this will no more be a problem in the future. If you actually both stop letting of your frustration/anger on one another, but instead talked to each other like most educated people would do, there soon wouldn't be much anger left between the two of you. @d-i people: When Sven annoys you, try ignoring whatever he does at that moment (i.e. that mail, that IRC message, that commit-log). Calm down and come back later if there is a technical issue involved that needs solving. Sven is over-sensitive and attacks when he deems he is being attacked himself. Nevertheless, he did a lot of valuable work on the powerpc port and is willing to continue doing so. While making Colin the lead powerpc porter (at least regarding the d-i team) does make sense, but that doesn't necessarily mean that Sven's contributions aren't needed anymore. @Sven: As a result of this thread, I read a lot of mails in various threads you were involved in. While I somewhat agree that people where picking on you, it has never been as bad as you try to make it look like. You are _way_ over-sensitive and see every hint at a technical problem as a personal attack (see the "it's the kernel's fault" comment above). People are pointing out that some particular program (or other part of the system) is accountable for a particular problem is _not_ a personal attack on you. > But you have to live by the fact that i also have an opinion, and that i will > post things in the future which may annoy you, and it is not correct to expect > me not to do such posts. If you knowingly post things in a way that annoys others, you pretty much make sure to gather opponents rather than friends. Your posts mostly sound far more aggressive than they would need to. Try to focus on technical things, try to avoid personal issues. > So, the ball is in your camp, can you now stop this childish rejection of me, > come to your sense, As much as one _might_ see the removal of commit rights as a childish action, your reaction to it isn't any less childish. > and that we continue working again ? I may have hit your > feelings, and said things that you took badly, and for this i apologize, but > you (and others) have done no less. Wise words. If both of you (i.e. primarily Frans and Sven, but also the other people involved, such as the rest of the d-i team) calm down and try to focus on fixing technical things while avoiding personal stuff, you might be able to work together again in the near future. I sure hope so, since that would mean that d-i and especially the PowerPC port would improve more than it would without you cooperating. regards, sven PS: Sven: Frans was right in one aspect: You should have _tried_ to contact Colin before fixing whatever breakage you wanted to fix with your commit, since now Colin is the lead PowerPC porter (for d-i). At least you should have send a mail along the lines of: "I noticed this issue, I'm working on a fix." PPS: I intentionally CCed this mail to Sven in the hopes of making sure he is aware of this m
Re: irc.debian.org
Raphael Hertzog wrote: > What does +s exactly do? Many more channels have this, #debian-qa and > #debian.de on OFTC too. So your list is incomplete right now. +s stands for "secret". It means that the channel will not be seen on channel list. It also makes it impossible to tell if a person is on the channel, unless you are on it yourself. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: irc.debian.org
On Wed, 03 May 2006, Jorgen Schaefer wrote: > Kurt Roeckx <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes: > > > You also forgot #debian-women on oftc which currently has 79. > > As I said, this list does not include private or secret channels, > and #debian-women has +s set. What does +s exactly do? Many more channels have this, #debian-qa and #debian.de on OFTC too. So your list is incomplete right now. Cheers, -- Raphaël Hertzog Premier livre français sur Debian GNU/Linux : http://www.ouaza.com/livre/admin-debian/ -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: irc.debian.org
Don Armstrong wrote: > > Hmm, you seem to have missed #debian-boot, which is on freenode with > > some 70 in channel. Also, you missed #debian-security and #debian-release, > > which are, IIRC, on OFTC. > > For whatever reason, those channels appear to be +s, so it's not > surprising that they were missed... > > 11:56:52 -!- mode/#debian-security [+nsc] > 11:56:52 -!- Channel #debian-security created Tue Aug 30 08:58:25 2005 > 11:56:57 -!- mode/#debian-release [+nsc] > 11:56:57 -!- Channel #debian-release created Sun Feb 6 18:55:01 2005 AFAIK all three channels are intended to be open to the public, so that should probably be changed. -- see shy jo signature.asc Description: Digital signature
Re: irc.debian.org
On Wed, 03 May 2006, Joey Hess wrote: > Jorgen Schaefer wrote: > > So, here it goes. Data was collected on 2006-05-03 at around 18:40 > > CEST: > > Hmm, you seem to have missed #debian-boot, which is on freenode with > some 70 in channel. Also, you missed #debian-security and #debian-release, > which are, IIRC, on OFTC. For whatever reason, those channels appear to be +s, so it's not surprising that they were missed... 11:56:52 -!- mode/#debian-security [+nsc] 11:56:52 -!- Channel #debian-security created Tue Aug 30 08:58:25 2005 11:56:57 -!- mode/#debian-release [+nsc] 11:56:57 -!- Channel #debian-release created Sun Feb 6 18:55:01 2005 Don Armstrong -- She was alot like starbucks. IE, generic and expensive. -- hugh macleod http://www.gapingvoid.com/batch3.htm http://www.donarmstrong.com http://rzlab.ucr.edu -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: irc.debian.org
Joey Hess <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes: > Jorgen Schaefer wrote: >> So, here it goes. Data was collected on 2006-05-03 at around 18:40 >> CEST: > > Hmm, you seem to have missed #debian-boot, which is on freenode with > some 70 in channel. Also, you missed #debian-security and #debian-release, > which are, IIRC, on OFTC. Thanks for pointing these out - as I said, the lists do not include secret channels (channel mode +s), and all three of them do have that mode set. The list was generated with the LIST command, which does not include secret channels. Regards, -- Jorgen -- Debian GNU/Linux Developer [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.forcix.cx/ pgp2OKs3A0uRE.pgp Description: PGP signature
Re: irc.debian.org
Kurt Roeckx <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes: > You also forgot #debian-women on oftc which currently has 79. As I said, this list does not include private or secret channels, and #debian-women has +s set. Greetings, -- Jorgen -- Debian GNU/Linux Developer [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.forcix.cx/ -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: irc.debian.org
On Wed, May 03, 2006 at 06:49:47PM +0200, Jorgen Schaefer wrote: > Raphael Hertzog <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes: > > > Right now I'm on those Debian related channels on OFTC: > > [...] > > And on Freenode: > > [...] > > * Freenode [...] > 6 #debian-women > > * OFTC: You also forgot #debian-women on oftc which currently has 79. Kurt -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: irc.debian.org
Jorgen Schaefer wrote: > So, here it goes. Data was collected on 2006-05-03 at around 18:40 > CEST: Hmm, you seem to have missed #debian-boot, which is on freenode with some 70 in channel. Also, you missed #debian-security and #debian-release, which are, IIRC, on OFTC. -- see shy jo signature.asc Description: Digital signature
Re: irc.debian.org
Raphael Hertzog <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes: > Right now I'm on those Debian related channels on OFTC: > [...] > And on Freenode: > [...] I'm not advocating Freenode really (I couldn't care less about where any #*debian* channel buffer points, really), but if we list channels on the networks, we should use complete lists. What follows is a full list of channels with the string "debian" in them, together with user numbers, on both networks. Beware. Users DO overlap, so take the numbers with a grain of salt. Also this does not include private or secret channels, and this will probably change tremendously if irc.debian.org points to oftc. If anyone feels so inclined, ey can provide a similar list for Jabber, too. So, here it goes. Data was collected on 2006-05-03 at around 18:40 CEST: * Freenode 789 #debian 168 #debian.de 103 #debian-fr 89 #debian-es 82 #debian-amd64 73 #debian-russian 69 #debian.se 69 #debian-mentors 46 #debian-kde 43 #debian.hu 43 #debian-bugs 40 #debian-edu 34 #debian-offtopic 29 #debian-zh 28 #debian-java 25 #debian-arm 24 #debian-devel-fr 24 #debian_ 23 #debian-it 23 #debian-glibc 23 #debianfr 22 #emdebian 17 #debian-pr 16 #debian-x 16 #debian-ve 15 #debian-mono 15 #debian-bots 14 #debianmexico 14 #debian-br-cdd 13 #debian-xfce 13 #debian-uy 13 #debian-co 13 #debian-ar 12 #debian-custom 11 #debian-ruby 10 #debian-sparc 10 #debian-peru 10 #debian-muc 10 #debian-france 10 #debian-de 10 #debian-catalan 9 #debian.dk 9 #debian-bleh 8 #debian-user-french 8 #debian-sp 8 #debian-mg 8 #debian-ipv6 7 #debian-oo 7 #debian-mentors-ops 7 #debian-ia64 6 #debian-women 6 #debian-qa 6 #debian-overflow 6 #debian-hurd 5 #debian.tr 5 #debian-rj 5 #debian-nonfree 5 #debianitas 5 #debian-cr 4 #debian-rs 4 #debian-pt 4 #debian-np 4 #debian-mentors-es 4 #debian-jr 4 #debian.gr 4 #debian-ce 4 #debian-anarchy * OFTC: 69 #debian-uk 65 #debian 44 #debian-kernel 36 #debian-devel-fr 28 #debian-bugs 19 #debian.or.at 16 #debian-amd64 15 #debian-mirrors 15 #debian-fr 14 #debian-lists 14 #debian-i18n 13 #debian-xen 11 #debian-python 11 #debian-l10n-fr 9 #debian-soc 7 #debian-apache 6 #debian-cd 5 #debian-live 4 #debian-webapps 3 #debian-gis 2 #debian-svn 2 #debian-social 2 #debian-mujeres 2 #debian-br 2 #debian-boot 1 #debian-xfce 1 #debian.se 1 #debian-ops 1 #debian-l10n-spanish 1 #debian-edu 1 #debian-bots 1 #debian-alsa 1 #alsa-debian Greetings, -- Jorgen -- Debian GNU/Linux Developer [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.forcix.cx/ -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: irc.debian.org
On Wed, 03 May 2006, Marco d'Itri wrote: > [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: > > >The people who are on Freenode are there because it's irc.debian.org but > >they don't care if it's Freenode or not. > How do you know? Because I discussed with them... the initial plan was to move #debian-devel-fr from Freenode to OFTC, but not everybody followed so we ended up with the channel on both networks. I asked them why they didn't follow and they told me that they want to be on irc.debian.org because it's a Debian related channel. Roland Mas, Sébastien Bacher and several other people argumented in that way. > >I can also understand that some people prefer Freenode for historical > >reasons but if you try to get the best for Debian, you can only understand > >that it's important to have all people in a common place. And the more > >consensual (or better said, the less-controversial) place right now is OFTC. > Hardly. Start a poll if you want to convince me otherwise. I'm on both network and I'll stay on both networks after the change as well... but I definitely want all official Debian channels on a single network. Right now I'm on those Debian related channels on OFTC: #debian-tech #debian-devel #debian-cd #alioth #debian-devel-fr #debian.de #debian-release #debian-women #debian-python #debian-qa #debian-soc And on Freenode: #debian-devel #debian-boot #debian-devel-fr #debian-mentors The facts are that most recent Debian-related channels have been created on OFTC. Cheers, -- Raphaël Hertzog Premier livre français sur Debian GNU/Linux : http://www.ouaza.com/livre/admin-debian/ -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: irc.debian.org
Wouter Verhelst <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes: > On Tue, May 02, 2006 at 03:52:33PM -0700, Paul Johnson wrote: >> On Tuesday 02 May 2006 08:40, Cord Beermann wrote: >> > >Why not move it to Jabber? More people use and know what Jabber is these >> > > days than IRC. >> > >> > Jabber doesn't have any useable non-graphic Clients. >> >> So write one or grab one of the existing ones and make it not suck. > > As it is, IRC *does* have non-sucking non-graphic clients. If you think > people should switch to Jabber, I think you ought to write such a > client, not someone who's not interested in using Jabber in the first > place. Because IRC clients are really, really nice, and Jabber clients are not (I don't know of any Jabber client I consider usable, the same for ICQ and the other IM services - I dislike licq, for example), the best option to get us incorrigible IRC freaks onto Jabber would be to improve bitlbee so it works with all features of Jabber. Oh, wait. I use bitlbee already. And it does have Jabber support (thought not optimal). But I never bothered to get a Jabber account. Let me think of why. *ponder* Oh, right, I never met anyone with a Jabber account that wasn't on IRC most of the time. But that's probably just because we IRC geeks form a single Jabber-hostile group. Greetings, -- Jorgen -- Debian GNU/Linux Developer [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.forcix.cx/ -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
usable console jabber-clients? (was: irc.debian.org)
Hallo! Du (Paul Johnson) hast geschrieben: >All the concole Jabber clients I've come across suit me fine. I can't program >for a variable that I can't perceive. Name them please, maybe i missed them. Cord -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: irc.debian.org
Hallo! Du (Paul Johnson) hast geschrieben: >> Jabber doesn't have any useable non-graphic Clients. > >So write one or grab one of the existing ones and make it not suck. sorry. out of skills. (beside that that would be on my todo-list the point behind 'rewriting nn') Btw, there was an irssi-plugin for jabber, but that didn't implement groupchat, and it looks like the development has been discontinued. bts#188465 >> for the usual one >> to one communication it might be ok, but for groupchat (and thats what >> most people do on IRC it simply sucks. >By design, IRC encourages people to do truly obnoxious things, like spamming >the channel to announce they're going away, or indicating their status with >nicknames (which also spams the channel). You also get spammed on IRC >whenever someone joins or leaves a channel. Jabber prevents this by >providing a real presence system. Jabber provides all the same "modes" IRC >does in group chat, except bans actually work because they're not stupidly >tied to some arbitrary netmask. Nicknames changes, joins and parts aren't >spammed to the channel unless your client adds them in for you (but changes >are still reflected in the listing of who is in the chat). Jabber networks >don't go on begging sprees for funding. OFTC will invariably spam you like >every other IRC network since the dawn of time the first moment they get more >than a few users. You don't need to tell me what jabber is. I deployed and run it on our company-network, to get cow-orkers away from Yahoo/AIM/MSN/... IM-Services, so internal information has a better chance to be internal ;-) My experience is that there isn't a useable Textual Client (there are a few, but they don't have groupchat implemented), and the graphical ones (GAIM, PSI) implement some things but are not complete. So with psi it isn't possible to configure Groupchat, Gaim can't discover Services, and if you are Operator of the thing, you need tkabber, which falls short on some other nice-to-haves (iirc it crashes after some time). (as a footnote, my irssi-client usually has nearly the same uptime as the box it runs on.) So, until there isn't a stable and complete free-as-in-speech client-implementation jabber isn't ready to provide the recommended online way to get help for Debian. >IRC was a good early effort, but 20 years have passed and IRC is still plagued >by the same problems it started with and shows no signs of improvement over >time, just like Windows. Isn't it time the world moved on already? the world won't. (and Windows is still there, even if The Hurd would be released before Vista) So you want us to moving on to something that is worse than the current (yes, 20 year old) technology, only because it is old? Maybe it simply provides all that is needed? If it wouldn't people really moved on as some did, for example on the Webserver-Sector. (btw: did you notice that http and smtp is already over 10 years old. Time to replace it?). personally, i would prefer Psyc (http://psyc.pages.de) as the successor of irc. at least because it provides a functional irc-client-interface (and jabber, and web, and) and brings the good things of IRC and Jabber (and some more IM-thingies) together. Sadly there's only one free-as-in-beer server yet (you are not allowed to use the underlying ldmud for commercial things) Cord -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: irc.debian.org
On Wednesday 03 May 2006 01:19, Wouter Verhelst wrote: > On Tue, May 02, 2006 at 03:52:33PM -0700, Paul Johnson wrote: > > On Tuesday 02 May 2006 08:40, Cord Beermann wrote: > > > >Why not move it to Jabber? More people use and know what Jabber is > > > > these days than IRC. > > > > > > Jabber doesn't have any useable non-graphic Clients. > > > > So write one or grab one of the existing ones and make it not suck. > > As it is, IRC *does* have non-sucking non-graphic clients. If you think > people should switch to Jabber, I think you ought to write such a > client, not someone who's not interested in using Jabber in the first > place. can you give a good enough definition of 'non-sucking' to allow that? > Move on to what? A protocol that broadcasts whether I'm online to > everyone I've ever chatted with? it doesn't: - your presence only gets broadcasts to people you've explicitly authorized to subscribe to your presence (and you can de-authorize people at any time) - furthermore you can actually selectively send your presence to people, allowing you to present different presences-modes to different people at the same time. -- Cheers, cobaco (aka Bart Cornelis) 1. Encrypted mail preferred (GPG KeyID: 0x86624ABB) 2. Plain-text mail recommended since I move html and double format mails to a low priority folder (they're mainly spam) pgphj0rDmTMez.pgp Description: PGP signature
Re: irc.debian.org
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: >The people who are on Freenode are there because it's irc.debian.org but >they don't care if it's Freenode or not. How do you know? >I can also understand that some people prefer Freenode for historical >reasons but if you try to get the best for Debian, you can only understand >that it's important to have all people in a common place. And the more >consensual (or better said, the less-controversial) place right now is OFTC. Hardly. -- ciao, Marco -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: irc.debian.org
On Tue, May 02, 2006 at 04:55:15PM -0700, Paul Johnson wrote: > On Tuesday 02 May 2006 16:19, Wouter Verhelst wrote: > > As it is, IRC *does* have non-sucking non-graphic clients. If you think > > people should switch to Jabber, I think you ought to write such a > > client, not someone who's not interested in using Jabber in the first > > place. > > All the concole Jabber clients I've come across suit me fine. I can't > program for a variable that I can't perceive. Granted. And since I don't use (nor want) non-graphic jabber clients myself, I'll leave it at that. > > > > for the usual one to one communication it might be ok, but for > > > > groupchat (and thats what most people do on IRC it simply sucks. > > > > > > By design, IRC encourages people to do truly obnoxious things, like > > > spamming the channel to announce they're going away, > > > > That's not really the design of IRC; rather, it's the design of some > > clients. > > It's a misfeature in clients caused by the bad design of IRC: It lacks > presence information, which people do find important. Just not > channelworthy. So use a client that doesn't suck, and that doesn't spam your channel. It's possible. > > > or indicating their status with nicknames (which also spams the > > > channel). You also get spammed on IRC whenever someone joins or > > > leaves a channel. > > > > Most IRC clients allow those to be switched off. Personally, I happen to > > like them. > > s/most/none/. I just tried irssi, ircii, kopete, and ejabberd's IRC > clients. None have this. I don't know all clients, but irssi surely does. As does xchat, which, rather than irssi, is my personal irc-client of choice. You need to ignore some messages (see Joerg's post for an explanation of how that's done). Note that if you ignore them, in xchat that means they don't appear in the chat window, not that the list of people on the channel isn't updated. > > > Jabber prevents this by providing a real presence system. > > > > IRC has a real presence system, too. > > An /away command nobody uses doesn't a presence system make. So use auto-away, which at least irssi and xchat do support (and probably every reasonably modern IRC client on the planet). > > > Nicknames changes, joins and parts aren't spammed to the channel > > > unless your client adds them in for you (but changes are still > > > reflected in the listing of who is in the chat). > > > > Joins and parts you already mentioned. Nickname changes? I wouldn't know > > why the fsck you *wouldn't* want to be informed of those. > > Because nobody changes their nicknames on IRC anymore, it's always from > something like "retard" to "retard-doingMyWife" or something similarly > presence-related. I don't understand why people like to change their nicknames I do Explain? Well, it's sometimes nice, especially if you want to confuse people > > > Jabber networks don't go on begging sprees for funding. > > > > Hell yes they do. My Jabber server administrator has sent me some > > "please support my bandwidth" request in the past. > > Switch servers. You can still get to the same group chats from any Jabber > server. So far, that one Jabber admin that doesn't quite get it out of > dozens. Yeah, and I can go ahead and ask everyone in my list of contact to go and please update their contact list. Thanks, but no thanks. [...] > > > IRC was a good early effort, but 20 years have passed and IRC is still > > > plagued by the same problems it started with and shows no signs of > > > improvement over time, just like Windows. Isn't it time the world > > > moved on already? > > > > Move on to what? A protocol that broadcasts whether I'm online to > > everyone I've ever chatted with? > > Jabber doesn't do that, nor am I sure I understand where you get that > impression. You have to explicitly authorize people to subscribe to your > presence information, it's not something that gets broadcast to other users > without your approval. Okay, so perhaps I was being a bit too much of a smartass here. Still, there are times when I would want to use IRC when I don't want to reveal to my brother or whoever that I'm online. Sure, some clients allow me to do just that, but it's not the default. -- Fun will now commence -- Seven Of Nine, "Ashes to Ashes", stardate 53679.4 -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Google summer of code
On Wednesday 03 May 2006 06:58, Christian Perrier wrote: > (keeping CC for the moment. I suggest to keep -project CC'ed as long > as the topic is still close to Google Summer of Code) > > Quoting Martin Michlmayr ([EMAIL PROTECTED]): > > * Gasper Zejn <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> [2006-05-02 22:36]: > > > I intend to apply for Google's summer of code for Debian's I18N > > > infrastructure plan. Is there somebody I should discuss this with or > > > should I just submit the application? > > > > Reviewing the discussions that happened on the debian-i18n list > > recently would certainly be a good idea. > > I was thinking about GSoC for the recurrent topic of i18n > infrastructure. > > However, our ideas about it are currently not clear. The planned i18n > meeting in Extremadura/Spain next September is mostly aimed at drawing > these ideas into a real plan to have something setup. > > I also want to take the opportunity of the Debconf next week to throw > out early ideas and prepare that meeting. > > Up to now, various existing solutions have been evaluated and > discussed, such as Pootle, transdict or even Rosetta. But, my own > personal opinion is that going for this or that tool befre having a > clear idea of what we need is a bit wrong. I agree with this. I've also read the paper to be presented at Debconf, and it's a good reading to see what the current status is. That's why I've been thinking about this for some time now. This is how I see translation "portals" in next few years. Translation portals are going to evolve from centralized to distributed, with each portal serving only a couple of languages. This will lead to only one portal for one language, but with good quality, instead of one for every project, eg. Rosetta for Ubuntu and the new web portal for Debian. That's why Debian should consolidate access to messages needing translation through one central point, be it a central subversion repository or a more advanced "message exchange" server that would work directly with different backends and would not require to synchronize messages from this repository with upstream (eg. for d-i messages with d-i svn repository). After this step, access to messages is greatly simpified. This can then be used as a base for web based translation portals. They could be hosted by Debian or, if translator community for a specific language is strong enough, by translator communities and messages would get exchanged by a yet unknown protocol. This would shift a lot of hardware burden away from Debian and could greatly help improve quality of translations with help of capable computer aided translation software, that would use translation memory along with policies for different projects, eg. KDE has different terminology than GNOME. And some governments fund l10n and i18n of open source software so such a translation server could improve odds for funding. These "portals" also need to take care of translation "robots", or better said the lists that help coordinate translators and message status. We need this because some prefer mailing lists, other web interfaces. For those who prefer mailing lists, such a portal would need to support versioned messages, probably the most simple solution here actually is subversion repository. Those who translate through web portal, the server software would automatically commit translations for them, others who use mailing lists would lock translations for them through mailing list robots, checkout their messages and, after translating them, manually commit them back. I see this Summer of code as a great opportunity to speed things up. Debian gets nearly 3 months of full time work for their i18n project, and I get a stipend for doing something that I would probably anyways start doing, it just gets done sooner as I don't have to seek for paid job elsewhere. Regards, Gasper Zejn -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Google summer of code
On Tue, May 02, 2006 at 11:36:52PM +0200, Martin Michlmayr wrote: > * Gasper Zejn <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> [2006-05-02 22:36]: > > I intend to apply for Google's summer of code for Debian's I18N > > infrastructure plan. Is there somebody I should discuss this with or > > should I just submit the application? > > Reviewing the discussions that happened on the debian-i18n list > recently would certainly be a good idea. Specially the paper that we wrote for Debconf6, which details the current infrastructure. It's currently available at http://people.debian.org/~jfs/debconf6/ I added that project to the wiki and the main idea I had is to work on developing (and implementing?) something that would tie up many of the loose ends we currently have in Debian's i18n/l10n. Such as translation statistics (of different elements, from program's PO to debconf note to the d-i), and translation robots (some teams have those in place now). We would like to be able to tie that up with some generic interface already available (like Pootle) but someone needs to assess if: - it would be viable for Debian i18n/l10n work (since not all the i18n/l10n sources are PO-based and I believe those frameworks rely heavily on it) - it could be improved to have web and e-mail based interfaces useful for both translators and reviewers - it could be improved to have translation memories that could be shared through the different things that are translated in Debian (from documentation to PO files to package descriptions) As Christian said, we don't have the slightest idea what would fit our needs and how it could be engineered. If you want to tackle that idea and turn it into substance you are welcome aboard! Regards Javier signature.asc Description: Digital signature
Re: irc.debian.org
Le Mer 3 Mai 2006 11:58, Thijs Kinkhorst a écrit : > Summarizing: I do not see how changing the default network would > improve Debian's IRC channels, but it would separate the Debian > channels from the much larger base of open source channels on > Freenode. that's not a valid point IMHO. every irc client on earth knows how to deal with multiple servers. So after that, the fact that a channel is on that or this server is not a big deal, since channels don't cooperate anyway, so you still are able to go to #your_prefeded_FOSS_project on Freenode and on #debian on OFTC. The current problem I have with the OFTC/Freenode Pair is that we have valuables channels on both networks, and that sucks: where to find: - #alioth ? OFTC - #debian-devel ? both - #debian-kde ? Freenode - #debian-release ? OFTC - ... and *that* is the problem I have with debian atm, because it's hard to know where channels are. I personnally don't care if all go to Freenode or OFTC, it's only a matter of consistency -- ·O· Pierre Habouzit ··O[EMAIL PROTECTED] OOOhttp://www.madism.org pgpWHJHqHCzvv.pgp Description: PGP signature
Re: irc.debian.org
On Sun, 2006-04-30 at 19:34 +0100, Steve McIntyre wrote: > I've heard it suggested by a variety of people that we should move the > official irc.debian.org alias away from freenode to oftc. I can see > that more and more of my own Debian IRC discussions are on oftc, to > the extent that I'm (currently) not on any freenode channels at > all. Disagree. I'm on some channels for other projects aswell, and they are all on Freenode. Freenode is the de-facto standard for open source IRC channels, and moving away from it should only be done for very compelling reasons. I personally have not had any serious problem with freenode in the recent past. I guess the main problem with freenode would stem from quite some years ago. Time has passed and Freenode improved. Of course one can find a problem with any network, just as OFTC has its problems too. To give an example, when trying to connect recently, I discovered that there isn't even a server list available on their website (quite basic information), and that irc.eu.oftc.net does not connect you to a European server. > On another front, oftc is also a sister org under the SPI > umbrella. What advantage does the same umbrella bring in choosing an IRC network? Summarizing: I do not see how changing the default network would improve Debian's IRC channels, but it would separate the Debian channels from the much larger base of open source channels on Freenode. thanks, Thijs signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part
Re: irc.debian.org
On 10643 March 1977, Paul Johnson wrote: >> > or indicating their status with nicknames (which also spams the >> > channel). You also get spammed on IRC whenever someone joins or >> > leaves a channel. >> Most IRC clients allow those to be switched off. Personally, I happen to >> like them. > s/most/none/. I just tried irssi, ircii, kopete, and ejabberd's IRC clients. > > None have this. That shows that you dont know what you did, probably due to your Jabber-love :) Ignorance List: #achannel: JOINS PARTS QUITS #anotherchan: JOINS PARTS QUITS The ignorance system works very well for that. Type /help levels in irssi to see what else you could ignore. I have a jabber account (and an own server) and use that also, but i wouldnt ever want to have groupchats there. or to drop IRC. IRC is just soo much better than Jabber for most things I want to get done online, talking with others... -- bye Joerg It seems to me that the account creation step could be fully automated: checking the box "approved by DAM" could trigger an insert into the LDAP database thereby creating the account. <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> pgptWta0RaZIx.pgp Description: PGP signature
Re: irc.debian.org
On Wed, 03 May 2006, Marco d'Itri wrote: > [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: > > >I'm in favour as well. > I wonder, do you and the other "me too" people also have a reason to > justify switching? Yes I'm tired to have #debian-devel-fr on both networks with less than 30 people on each. The people who are on OFTC are dissatisfied with Freenode and don't want to come back to Freenode. The people who are on Freenode are there because it's irc.debian.org but they don't care if it's Freenode or not. If irc.d.o points to OFTC, we will again have a single (much more useful) #debian-devel-fr ... So count me as a "mee too" in this thread, I just want to re-unify the community behind a single network. The fact that OFTC is SPI-affiliated make that change quite natural and logical. I can also understand that some people prefer Freenode for historical reasons but if you try to get the best for Debian, you can only understand that it's important to have all people in a common place. And the more consensual (or better said, the less-controversial) place right now is OFTC. Cheers, -- Raphaël Hertzog Premier livre français sur Debian GNU/Linux : http://www.ouaza.com/livre/admin-debian/ -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: irc.debian.org
On Wed, May 03, 2006 at 01:38:37AM +0200, Marco d'Itri wrote: > [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: > > >The problem is that the high amount of disconnection one gets from freenode > >makes this a pain, especially as it is not clear for clients like irssi when > Do you? This is unusual, I have clients connected to freenode for many > weeks at a time. Maybe we should discuss this offline to better debug > which kind of issues you are having. Ok, but i have thought about this yesterday, and i believe the problem is that both on oftc and on freenode, not everyone is affected the same by a split. Those who stay on the good side of the split don't see a problem, while those on the bad side, ... It may also be related on the number of channels you are on and stuff like that. > >you are allowed to post or not, as the error message does not appear in the > >/query channel, but in the log one, and it doesn't even specify who you tried > >to /query and was blocked. > I have always considered this an irssi misfeature. :-) > (Anyway, it can be easily corrected.) Sure. Let's file a bug report against this :) > >You mentioned some auto-identify scripts, care to give an example of how that > >would work and respond to both above problems ? > The purpose of such a script is to automatically identify you to > nickserv at connection time. Actually, you do not even need a script for > freenode: just configure your client to use the nickserv password as the > server password (if you use irssi: /help server). > This is documented in the network FAQs, in the section "What's the > easiest way to identify to nickserv when I connect to freenode?": > http://freenode.net/faq.shtml#identify . Yeah, the thing is, i use (like probably most DDs) the irc channels without really being an expert, and without wanting to loose long hours reading badly accessible documentation (and freenode is as bad as oftc on this account, despite some claiming it is better). This is i believe normal, and whatever network is chosen, it should be easily usable out of the box, without initiatic knowledge :) > >Also, i guess that if you allow none-reg /querying, this leaves you open to > >wide amount of irc-spam that has been circulating in freenode, and supposedly > >oftc is (still) less vulnerable to this. > Currently spam is not a major issue. OFTC AFAIK is currently not a > target of turkish kiddies, but this could change any day like it > happened to freenode. Indeed. The sheer size of freenode makes it a tempting target though. Friendly, Sven Luther -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: irc.debian.org
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: >i would be interested in the number of netsplits. do you have a diagram >for that, too? No, but empirically it appears to me that OFTC splits at least as often (and is 10 times smaller than freenode). -- ciao, Marco -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: irc.debian.org
On Wed, 03 May 2006, MJ Ray wrote: > Peter Samuelson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > One might think private messages are useful in user support, but > > #debian actually has a channel policy asking users not to send > > them without permission. [...] > > So, one might think the current #debian is not actually as useful in > user support as it could be? You may have that opinion, but the rule has been put in place because far too often people ask for help from one volunteer, and the volunteer leaves to get on with their real life then the person getting help has to repeat everything that they've said to a new helper. It also makes it more difficult for the channel to see the help that users are getting, and make corrections or pitch in and help. That said, you can ask to /msg someone privately, and if they agree, they'll help you in /msg... but the default assumption is to keep the conversation in the channel. > > What aspects of Debian development warrant private conversations? > > Introductions, misunderstandings and conflict resolution. None of these encompass development even though they may facilitate it. > The first time I noticed this (the +q lunacy), the attitude seemed > to be that IRC clients should change to cope with freenode, not that > freenode should cope with clients. +q is just one way of specifying the ban; the actual ban is implemented as a +b with special syntax. /quote MODE #foo +q [EMAIL PROTECTED] is equivalent to /quote MODE #foo +b [EMAIL PROTECTED] (and it's not like that even matters, because casual users won't be using them anyway... and if you're in a position to use them and don't like them, you can always use +b) I personally haven't seen a client that had a problem with it... but given the way that some IRC clients are written, it wouldn't suprise me much. Don Armstrong -- The beauty of the DRUNKENNESS subprogram was that you could move your intoxication level up and down at will, instead of being caught on a relentless down escalator to bargain basement philosophy and the parking garage. -- Rudy von Bitter _Software_ p124 http://www.donarmstrong.com http://rzlab.ucr.edu -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
