Re: Debian Maintainers
Anthony Towns <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: [...] > I don't think any solution short of "revert the GR entirely" would > stop those complaints -- and in turn is why they're correlated with the > original votes. What the hell is driving this FARCE? [ ] Anthony Towns likes pushing people with mild concerns about his projects into full-scale "back me or slap me" votes. [ ] DM project owners are bored of the DM idea and want to give its opponents motive and arguments to win a GR stopping it. [ ] Your answer here -- MJR/slef My Opinion Only: see http://people.debian.org/~mjr/ Please follow http://www.uk.debian.org/MailingLists/#codeofconduct -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Miriam Ruiz and Cameron Dale advocated for the DM keyring in beta test (Was: Re: call for seconds - request for removal of DM registrations)
[Please cc me if you trim the replies to -newmaint only, I do follow -project] [This relates to the fact that there are currently three non-DD people in the Debian Maintainer keyring, which is in beta-test, and some people feel that this should be announced to -newmaint, as per the GR text. See recent threads in -project for more details of the argument.] Bart Martens <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes: > solved by an apology but by completing the remaining formal steps for Here we go then - happy now, or are there still some steps missing? Miriam Ruiz Recommended-By: Joey Hess <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> NM-Page: https://nm.debian.org/[EMAIL PROTECTED] KeyCheck: pub 1024D/36EE0861 2004-12-25 Key fingerprint = AA46 F4F2 BD59 75A4 EE42 8223 7DB9 6D2E 36EE 0861 uid Miriam Ruiz <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> sig!336EE0861 2004-12-25 Miriam Ruiz <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Cameron Dale Recommended-By: Anthony Towns <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> NM-Page: https://nm.debian.org/nmstatus.php?email=camrdale%40gmail.com KeyCheck: pub 1024D/0D2036AD 2006-01-10 Key fingerprint = FF07 84FE E439 DA85 CAF1 EA95 0F1F 76E2 0D20 36AD uid Cameron Dale <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> sig! 5230514A 2006-01-24 Shaun Jackman <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> -- * Sufficiently advanced magic is indistinguishable from technology (T.P) * * PGP public key available @ http://www.iki.fi/killer * -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: call for seconds - request for removal of DM registrations
On Sun, 2007-10-28 at 14:57 +0200, Kalle Kivimaa wrote: > Bart Martens <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes: > > The "good reasons" for requesting the removal of inappropriate additions > > to the DM keyring are > > Why is it better to introduce more work for the DM Keyring team than > ask a simple apology? Granting upload rights to non-DD's bypassing the voted procedures is not solved by an apology but by completing the remaining formal steps for the DM applications or by removing the DM registrations for as long as the remaining steps are not yet completed. No need for an apology, because it is OK to have a different view on the liberties that come with being a member of the DM keyring maintenance team, and because I'm convinced that all was done with good intentions. > Also, you are aware that even if multiple DD's > do second your request, it is entirely up to the DM Keyring team if > they agree with you that this is a "good reason" for removal? So, you > might end up with accomplishing nothing. I haven't read the GR text that way, but let's hope that it doesn't escalate to that level. Regards, Bart Martens -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Debian Maintainers
On Sun, Oct 28, 2007 at 01:59:22PM +0100, Bart Martens wrote: > Beta-testing is good. But granting non-DD's upload rights requires > following the rules of the voted GR. As I understand it, the people (or maybe aj individually) implementing DM currently are taking responsiblity for those uploads as if they sponsored them. Michael -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: call for seconds - request for removal of DM registrations
Kalle Kivimaa <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes: > Bart Martens <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes: >> The "good reasons" for requesting the removal of inappropriate additions >> to the DM keyring are > Why is it better to introduce more work for the DM Keyring team than > ask a simple apology? Because the "DM Keyring team" doesn't work as a team. Two individuals have done some things, namely aj and joeyh. Both don't see their actions as something that needs an apology [1] [2]. Marc Footnotes: [1] <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> [2] <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> -- Fachbegriffe der Informatik - Einfach erklärt 148: Flame Flames sind der dumpfe Knall, wenn die Schädeldecke auf die Mauer aufschlägt. (Frank Hufschmied) pgpKFdX8Mfud5.pgp Description: PGP signature
Re: Debian Maintainers
On Sun, 2007-10-28 at 10:15 +0100, Michael Banck wrote: > Hi, > > On Fri, Oct 26, 2007 at 03:42:02PM +0200, Pierre Habouzit wrote: > > When a new NM gains upload rights (and becomes a DD), there is a mail > > on -newmaint. And it's like that for years. > > But not since the beginning of adding DDs to the project, it was > introduced later on. It surely makes a lot of sense to do so, but I > don't see it as an categoric requirement during beta-testing. Beta-testing is good. But granting non-DD's upload rights requires following the rules of the voted GR. > > > It's also made public on nm.debian.org, for everyone to see and watch. > > I expect at least the same degree of informations to be available for > > DDs. > > I expect that as well, and as soon as DM starts officially and is out of > beta. That would be more than I expect in short term. I think that it is OK to officially start using the DM keyring before all documentation and tools are ready. As long as granting upload rights to non-DD's is done following the rules of the voted GR. Regards, Bart Martens -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: call for seconds - request for removal of DM registrations
Bart Martens <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes: > The "good reasons" for requesting the removal of inappropriate additions > to the DM keyring are Why is it better to introduce more work for the DM Keyring team than ask a simple apology? Also, you are aware that even if multiple DD's do second your request, it is entirely up to the DM Keyring team if they agree with you that this is a "good reason" for removal? So, you might end up with accomplishing nothing. -- * Sufficiently advanced magic is indistinguishable from technology (T.P) * * PGP public key available @ http://www.iki.fi/killer * -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: call for seconds - request for removal of DM registrations
On Sun, 2007-10-28 at 09:38 +0100, Raphael Hertzog wrote: > Don't you have anything better to do than to try to escalate the situation? I'll read that as a rethoric question. > > What are the good reasons to remove those maintainers? The "good reasons" for requesting the removal of inappropriate additions to the DM keyring are - respect for voted GR's, - trust in the DM keyring being introduced. Didn't I already write that somewhere? :) > I'm sorry you have > to find your good reasons in the work of the DM that you want to remove We all know that this is not about the work of the DM candidates. > and not in the DM keyring maintenance team. I'm not blaming the DM keyring maintenance team for having a different view on the liberties that come with being a member of the DM keyring maintenance team. Regards, Bart Martens -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Debian Maintainers
On 11186 March 1977, Anthony Towns wrote: > I don't think any solution short of "revert the GR entirely" would > stop those complaints -- and in turn is why they're correlated with the > original votes. I wonder why you aren't able to follow your own set of rules and always ever resort to attack those that remind you of them. "Oh, lalala, he was always against it, he is just complaining, lalala". Thats - like a child. If you, instead of trying to show others "why they are complaining" (and getting it wrong) would simply do what you promised the project to do - there wouldnt be a single problem *at all*. I dont know if you noticed it, but - I haven't requested the removal of any of the people in the DM keyring, a right that the GR gives me in point 3, which says "the Debian Account Managers have requested the removal". I wouldnt even need a reason for it. I havent taken that way simply because I do accept the outcome of the GR[1] and, up to now, do not see a reason to remove those three people. *Unfortunately* you are working hard on giving me reasons to do use it. :( [1] I *accept* it. I still do not like it for all the reasons I listed before the vote ended, but thats something different. -- bye Joerg > What would you do if your package contains an Emacs major mode? Orphan it. > If you don't use/know Emacs then this: What would you do if your > package contains a perl module? Submit it to this year's obfuscated coding contest. pgpolBtF2Zc3N.pgp Description: PGP signature
Bug#69271: me it is lonely in this world
{Let:HI,Hi,Hello,hEllo,heLlo,helLo,hellO,HEllo} how are you
It - the good letter to you for the first time.
I am so successful, and I am do not know how to begin it, to write about me
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trust and all qualities that to the man can it is pleasant in the woman, I am
romantic and sensitive, common sense of humour, I love a life and I wish to
live good. I like to spend time at home, and to care, my loved - what I enjoy
most, it admires, that I see their pleased with me and would come back for
more. As the friend, I is very loyal also the up to - grounds. If you can win
my trust and respect, I can give you my care and love. You know that for love
and heart age is nothing you should be sincere and true! I am sensitive to
problems of other people and sufferings. More frequently than not, I find
myself in their histories. I knowhow to appreciate little things andI value
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If you like to know more about mĺ, then, please, feel free to write me on my
e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
I wait for you.
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Bug#31581: broken heart of the girl
{Let:HI,Hi,Hello,hEllo,heLlo,helLo,hellO,HEllo} how are you
It - the good letter to you for the first time.
I am so successful, and I am do not know how to begin it, to write about me
directly, but to allow me to try; I live in Russia, I am very fair, the care,
trust and all qualities that to the man can it is pleasant in the woman, I am
romantic and sensitive, common sense of humour, I love a life and I wish to
live good. I like to spend time at home, and to care, my loved - what I enjoy
most, it admires, that I see their pleased with me and would come back for
more. As the friend, I is very loyal also the up to - grounds. If you can win
my trust and respect, I can give you my care and love. You know that for love
and heart age is nothing you should be sincere and true! I am sensitive to
problems of other people and sufferings. More frequently than not, I find
myself in their histories. I knowhow to appreciate little things andI value
them as must as the big ones.
If you like to know more about mĺ, then, please, feel free to write me on my
e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
I wait for you.
Katya
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Re: Debian Maintainers
Stephen, when I first read your mail, I had the impression to read whining from a sore looser. Since I waived the fact that we voted the initial set of rules only, I'd like to respond nevertheless. On Sun, 28 Oct 2007, Stephen Gran wrote: > Just bear in mind that while you're complaining about the breach of > policy, the GR only ever mentions the 'initial' policy for almost > everything. Now that the GR has passed, it's not clear to me who has > the ability to change the DM policy, so for all I know, AJ may be acting > within the constraints of the GR by haphazardly changing the policy as > he sees fit. The rules can be changed by the the members of the team, how they take their decision is up to them (consensus and vote I'd expect). However if they change the initial rules, I expect the team to make an announcement. Otherwise they're not consistent with the spirit of the GR. The team has apparently no dedicated Alioth project or mailing list yet. It's clear given the mails of Joerg and Marc that the team also doesn't communicate over private mails yet. This was to be expected when part of the team was against the principle. So IMO the initial rules are still in place and while they have not been followed up to the letter, I'd cut them some slack given that Joey and Anthony explained clearly that they were still in beta-testing... I do hope that the rules will be respected later on (when officially launched) and even if I'm pretty sure that the rules will evolve, I hope that they will take those decisions even with the members of the team that were against DM (and I hope that those opponents will not voluntarily block any change without good reasons). In the end, Joerg was right to request news and to wonder what the current status was (I was wondering too!), but he could have done so by showing less hostility (that said, Joerg's mails were quite balanced compared to some other followups in this thread :-|). > Well done project for passing such a well thought out GR on the basis of > some disgruntlement and total lack of forethought. Let's do it again > soon. Don't be so negative. The text wasn't so badly formulated as you imply. Cheers, -- Raphaël Hertzog Premier livre français sur Debian GNU/Linux : http://www.ouaza.com/livre/admin-debian/ -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Unidentified subject!
On Sun, Oct 28, 2007 at 10:11:14AM +0100, Joey Schulze wrote: > This is so rediculous. I would rather say a clever reply to a ridiculously childish GR seconds request. -- Stefano Zacchiroli -*- PhD in Computer Science ... now what? [EMAIL PROTECTED],debian.org,bononia.it} -%- http://www.bononia.it/zack/ (15:56:48) Zack: e la demo dema ?/\All one has to do is hit the (15:57:15) Bac: no, la demo scema\/right keys at the right time signature.asc Description: Digital signature
Re: call for seconds - request for removal of DM registrations
Hi, On Sun, 28 Oct 2007, Bart Martens wrote: > I hereby call for other DD's to second this request in a signed message > so that our request conforms to this part of the GR rules: > > "The initial policy is that removals from the keyring will occur > under any of the following circumstances:" > "multiple Debian developers have requested the individual's > removal for good reason, such as" > http://www.debian.org/vote/2007/vote_003 Don't you have anything better to do than to try to escalate the situation? What are the good reasons to remove those maintainers? I'm sorry you have to find your good reasons in the work of the DM that you want to remove and not in the DM keyring maintenance team. Cheers, -- Raphaël Hertzog Premier livre français sur Debian GNU/Linux : http://www.ouaza.com/livre/admin-debian/ -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Three non-DD beta testers added to the DM keyring (Was: call for seconds - request for removal of DM registrations)
Just lending a helpful hand to the DM team here, hopefully you aren't offended. The following three persons have been added to the DM keyring for beta testing the DM system. Comment: adding Fathi Boudra as debian-maintainer Recommended-By: Pierre Habouzit <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Changed-By: Anthony Towns <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Date: Sat, 17 Mar 2007 09:36:20 + Advocates: madcoder - http://lists.debian.org/debian-project/2007/03/msg00103.html stratus - http://lists.debian.org/debian-project/2007/03/msg00135.html ana - http://lists.debian.org/debian-project/2007/03/msg00131.html KeyCheck: gpg: requesting key 6AA572F7 from hkp server subkeys.pgp.net Comment: adding debian-maintainer Miriam Ruiz Recommended-By: Joey Hess <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Changed-By: Joey Hess <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Date: Thu, 13 Sep 2007 20:59:23 +0200 NM-Page: https://nm.debian.org/[EMAIL PROTECTED] KeyCheck: pub 1024D/36EE0861 2004-12-25 Key fingerprint = AA46 F4F2 BD59 75A4 EE42 8223 7DB9 6D2E 36EE 0861 uid Miriam Ruiz <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> sig!336EE0861 2004-12-25 Miriam Ruiz <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Comment: adding debian-maintainer camrdale Recommended-By: Anthony Towns <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Changed-By: Anthony Towns <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Date: Thu, 18 Oct 2007 01:38:29 +1000 NM-Page: https://nm.debian.org/nmstatus.php?email=camrdale%40gmail.com KeyCheck: pub 1024D/0D2036AD 2006-01-10 Key fingerprint = FF07 84FE E439 DA85 CAF1 EA95 0F1F 76E2 0D20 36AD uid Cameron Dale <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> sig! 5230514A 2006-01-24 Shaun Jackman <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Bart Martens <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes: >> I hereby request the immediate removal of all DM registrations in the DM > keyring that got added to the DM keyring without following the rules of > the voted GR. As the letter of the GR is now fulfilled, I personally don't see a reason for removing the DM registrations solely on this basis. And yes, I hope that if more beta testers are added, these are announced by the DM team, so we can avoid yet another flamewar. -- * Sufficiently advanced magic is indistinguishable from technology (T.P) * * PGP public key available @ http://www.iki.fi/killer * -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
call for seconds - request for removal of DM registrations
Dear DD's, I think that Joerg was very reasonable with this message: http://lists.debian.org/debian-project/2007/10/msg00115.html The debate that followed doesn't seem to lead to a solution that makes the existing DM registrations conform the the rules of the voted GR. Multiple DD's have failed to convince the involved DM keyring maintainers about the importance of following the rules of the voted GR from the start. Therefor, in the interest of respect for voted GR's, and in the interest of trust in the DM keyring being introduced, I regret to see no other option for the time being than to request this: I hereby request the immediate removal of all DM registrations in the DM keyring that got added to the DM keyring without following the rules of the voted GR. I hereby call for other DD's to second this request in a signed message so that our request conforms to this part of the GR rules: "The initial policy is that removals from the keyring will occur under any of the following circumstances:" "multiple Debian developers have requested the individual's removal for good reason, such as" http://www.debian.org/vote/2007/vote_003 Regards, Bart Martens signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part
Unidentified subject!
This is so rediculous. -- Of course, I didn't mean that, which is why I didn't say it. What I meant to say, I said. -- Thomas Bushnell -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Debian Maintainers
Hi, On Fri, Oct 26, 2007 at 03:42:02PM +0200, Pierre Habouzit wrote: > When a new NM gains upload rights (and becomes a DD), there is a mail > on -newmaint. And it's like that for years. But not since the beginning of adding DDs to the project, it was introduced later on. It surely makes a lot of sense to do so, but I don't see it as an categoric requirement during beta-testing. > It's also made public on nm.debian.org, for everyone to see and watch. > I expect at least the same degree of informations to be available for > DDs. I expect that as well, and as soon as DM starts officially and is out of beta. Michael -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Debian Maintainers
On Sun, 2007-10-28 at 11:04 +1000, Anthony Towns wrote: > On Fri, Oct 26, 2007 at 09:55:57AM +0200, Bart Martens wrote: > > I'm sure that the intentions are good, but Joerg has a point about these > > three DM's. Maybe it is better to replace these three DM registrations > > in the DM keyring by three artificial DM's owned by DD's. > I don't think having dummy uploads introducing made up names into > Uploaders fields is a great idea, The point is that three real non-DD's got upload rights via the DM keyring without following the rules of the GR. > and limiting testing to DDs means you > don't get reports of things that are obvious to DDs but aren't for people > who've never uploaded before. That might be a disadvantage, but that doesn't change the fact that the point is ... see above. > I don't think any solution short of "revert the GR entirely" would > stop those complaints -- I'm not requesting to "revert the GR entirely". The point is ... see above. > and in turn is why they're correlated with the > original votes. Even if such correlation would exist (*), then still the point is ... see above. (*): I voted "further discussion" at the time, and now that the GR got accepted, I have offered my help to do beta-testing of the DM-infra. I don't see any amusement in reading that I would be one of those who "find fault with this no matter what happens". Regards, Bart Martens -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
