Re: Greaat disappointment

[Josselin Mouette]

Le samedi 01 octobre 2011 à 01:55 +0200, Qactuar Rogue a écrit : 
> I still want Linux. I hate Windows. Microsoft is a disgusting
> transnational organization.

OMFFSM, how could I miss that?

→ sent by cact...@hotmail.com

Obvious troll is trolling.

kthxbye,
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Re: Greaat disappointment

[Christian Brenner]

Hello Mr. Halchenko,

with all due respect, do you think a statement like the following is a
good start if you ask someone for help?

"Hi. Could someone who has a remotely comprehensive understanding of
partitioning and is not a complete dumbass help me out?"

I mean, a certain amount of respect would be nice. Also, they tried to
point out, what you did wrong and you went straight ahead:

"OK. If here is anyone over the age of 14 AND you know about
partitioning, please help me out. I need help. That is why I came here."

Next time, please think about you statement when you ask someone for
your help.

Have a nice day,
Christian



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Re: Greaat disappointment

[Michael Banck]

Hi Yaroslav,

On Fri, Sep 30, 2011 at 08:29:32PM -0400, Yaroslav Halchenko wrote:
> Hi Qactuar,
> 
> NB: crossposting to debian-devel since my question below is Debian
> developers oriented
> 
> BUT your unfortunate experience lead me to actual question now:  why
> http://irc.debian.org leads to a webpage which visually seems to have
> nothing with Debian in its appearance? 

You got that wrong: debian-devel is for *development-oriented* matters
for people developing Debian; debina-project is for
*non-development-oriented* matters for people developing Debian.

So -project is totally the right list for this question, IMO.


Michael


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Re: Greaat disappointment

[Michael Banck]

Hi,

On Sat, Oct 01, 2011 at 11:38:01AM +0200, Jonas Smedegaard wrote:
> Installing(!) an IRC client and diving into the world of IRC is an 
> investment.  

Totally, but please also honor the (huge!) investment by the people
doing first-level support in #debian (both on irc.debian.org and
irc.freenode.net).  They spent an awful lot of time helping out people;
that some fall through the cracks is unfortunate, but not really
possible to avoid.  And I am not talking about Ti-chan here, who I guess
did not really merit the attention at all.

I remember some time ago when I used to be in there how frequently
frustrated people from #ubuntu tried to sneak in to get support by
claiming to run testing, cause the support in #d was much better.


Michael


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Re: Greaat disappointment

[Wolodja Wentland]

On Fri, Sep 30, 2011 at 22:34 -0400, Kevin Mark wrote:
> On Sat, Oct 01, 2011 at 01:55:01AM +0200, Qactuar Rogue wrote:

> you will find a much better response if you ask your question on the
> debian-user mailing list. That list is more representative of the good people
> who use debian than the IRC channel. IRC is another kind of beast. It is more
> hit or miss. Debian does not pay people to moderate IRC or the mailing lists,
> we are a group of volunteers. 

I am surprised by the perception of IRC support in the Debian community
exemplified by this mail. I do not know about your own experiences, Mark, but
I have the impression that some people (still?) think that IRC support is best
to be avoided, that support on the mailing lists is better and that something
needs to be done about our IRC culture. 

You are correct in that you say that getting good support on #debian is a bit
of a "hit or miss" in that there is no guarantee of it and it depends on when
and who you run into on the channel, but there are numerous examples of people
receiving *very good* support. In some cases people spend hours to debug and
fix a specific problem, in others questions are answered immediately because
the regulars are aware of many current problems and their solution and
sometimes one does not find good support or are trolled. The latter is rare
but cannot be avoided, but I should note that the channel community strives to
maintain a professional and helpful athmosphere and that trolls are most often
swiftly dealt with. It is a hit or miss, but some people are really happy with
the support they receive on #debian and explicitly state that good and
professional IRC support is 

I can only invite all participants in this thread and those who want to make
up their mind about IRC support to spend this weekend in the channels and I
would certainly be happy to see *more* DDs/DMs in #debian in particular because
IRC *is* an important medium for Debian development and support. If you think
that something is wrong, act accordingly and set a good example.

Specific to the issue at hand:

1. Ti-Chan/Qactuar/TAKA's first words in the channel (#d on oftc) were:

[00:56]  Hi. Could someone who has a remotely comprehensive
  understanding of partitioning and is not a complete
  dumbass help me out?

   Which is not a very good way to start any conversation. If one seeks help
   it doesn't make sense to approach people you want help from in a hostile
   and insulting manner. The reactions were foreseeable and I can guarantee
   you that if Ti-Chan would have said something like:

"I apologise for my choice of words, but I really need help with
partitioning. I do not understand FOO, BAR and BAZ and am looking for some
advice on partitioning best-practices. My setup is ... and the machine
will be used for ..."

  The response would have been much different. And I would like to point out
  that the initial reactions were:

[00:57]  Ti-chan: maybe try that again
[00:57]  Ti-chan: given that one persons expert is another's
 beginner, you really got that question right!
[00:57]  btw we sat here all your life waiting to abuse you ;-)
[00:58] -*- daemonkeeper is a dumbass so he can't help.
[00:58] -*- devil is a comprehensive dumbass.
[00:58]  I am a multi ass that is dumb
[00:59]  You can straight stop picking on me. I am not here for
that. And in a forum for a quality software used by millions, 
certain
language is not appropriate.
[00:59]  you are here
[00:59]  you abused those who might help you
[00:59]  deal with it - life is not fair
[00:59]  Ti-chan: yeah, your language is not appropriate
[00:59]  Ti-chan: which language did you have in mind?
[01:00]  amphi: something derived from the original statement I 
guess.

  Which is arguably not the perfect response, but pretty understandable and
  would have left ample opportunities to ask a *real* question and seek help.
  I really don't understand why somebody thinks that starting a conversation
  with strangers while using an unfamiliar medium in that manner is/was a good
  idea. Ti-Chan/Qactuar/TAKA might want to comment on that.

2. A bit later Ti-Chan/Qactar/TAKA joined #debian on FreeNode with the
   following result:

[01:13]  Hi. I have questions about partitioning. Could someone
who knows about it in detail be of assistance?
[01:15]  !tell Ti-chan -about ask
[01:15]  Ti-chan: I don't know, what exactly is your question, some 
background would be useful.
[01:16]  What folders to create a seperate partition for and whit
what size. (I have my own idea about it) Would very nice if I could
discuss this with someone
[01:17]  There is not a single, correct answer to that 
question, Ti-chan.
[01:18]  Ti-chan: decisions on sizes of partitions are totally
personal. If you 

Re: Greaat disappointment

[Wolodja Wentland]

On Sat, Oct 01, 2011 at 09:48 +0200, Josselin Mouette wrote:
> Le samedi 01 octobre 2011 à 01:55 +0200, Qactuar Rogue a écrit : 
> > I do not want Debian anymore however. I do not wish to use software
> > developed by those people who are surfing on your IRC channels, thank
> > you very much.
> 
> I’m afraid I have to inform you that Debian is not developed by people
> who spend their days trolling on #debian.

It is certainly not developed by people *trolling* on #debian, but there are
DDs, DMs and otherwise active contributors among the regulars.

-- 
Wolodja 

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Re: Greaat disappointment

[Jonas Smedegaard]

On 11-10-01 at 09:14am, Sune Vuorela wrote:
> On 2011-10-01, Steffen Möller  wrote:
> >>> My nick was Ti-chan. You can research if you please.
> >>> I did nothing, just kindly asked for help regarding partitioning.
> >> [...]
> >> 
> >> And then, apparently, you started insulting people.
> >
> > I can well imagine how one has made the investment to install some 
> > IRC client to get access to that presumed source of help. One is 
> > happy to get it started and to understand what this join to a 
> > channel might mean - and then nobody wants to react to a "my machine 
> > does not
> 
> [00:56]  Hi. Could someone who has a remotely comprehensive 
> understanding of partitioning and is not a complete dumbass help me 
> out?
> 
> is apparantly the guys first words to the debian channel, around 15 
> minutes after he joined. There is nothing kind nor any investments 
> over that.

Installing(!) an IRC client and diving into the world of IRC is an 
investment.  Possibly so long ago that you made that investment that you 
have forgotten, but the investment is real.

I still remember how clumsy I felt with IRC back in 2004 when I started 
using IRC (in order to reach the the people in same room as me when I 
joined my first debconf - debconf4 in Brazil).  It was quite an 
investment for me back then to install an IRC client (thanks for the 
help, Micah!), and I am sure I broke some rules of conduct when I 
started chatting.

I agree that it makes good sense why no good comes out of above message, 
but I disagree that there could be no investment involved.


 - Jonas

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Re: Greaat disappointment

[Sune Vuorela]

On 2011-10-01, Steffen Möller  wrote:
>>> My nick was Ti-chan. You can research if you please.
>>> I did nothing, just kindly asked for help regarding partitioning.
>> [...]
>> 
>> And then, apparently, you started insulting people.
>
> I can well imagine how one has made the investment to install some
> IRC client to get access to that presumed source of help. One is
> happy to get it started and to understand what this join to a channel
> might mean - and then nobody wants to react to a "my machine does not

[00:56]  Hi. Could someone who has a remotely comprehensive
understanding of partitioning and is not a complete dumbass help me out?

is apparantly the guys first words to the debian channel, around 15
minutes after he joined. There is nothing kind nor any investments over
that.

/Sune


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Re: Greaat disappointment

[Steffen Möller]

Hello,

On 10/01/2011 06:13 AM, Ben Hutchings wrote:
> On Sat, 2011-10-01 at 01:55 +0200, Qactuar Rogue wrote:
>> Hi.
>>
>> I was planning on installing Debian on a new laptop that had Windows 7
>> pre-installed.
>> I was researching the methods of installation for two weeks
>> (partitioning etc).
>> Then right before beginning the disk wipe and later the installation
>> I had problems deciding on my own for what kind of partition table to
>> create
>> and wanted to have feedback from somebody who has a comprehensive
>> understanding on the subject.
>> I went on IRC. Firstly I tried #Debian on irc.debian.org then I tried
>> #Debian at chat.freenode.com
>>
>> I would like to express my greatest disappointment regarding the
>> `helpfulness` of the people on the channel.
>> On irc.debian.org everyone was a complete dumbass. On both channels I
>> was told off for asking my questions by PMing someone
>> who  replied to my posting on the channel.
> 
> That seems quite reasonable.  You have no right to expect free
> one-to-one support.

I have never been to an IRC activity @debian.org. With all those
larger companies now having an online chat window opening when one
idles for more than a second on their page, I can well imagine
expectations to somehow change.

>> My nick was Ti-chan. You can research if you please.
>> I did nothing, just kindly asked for help regarding partitioning.
> [...]
> 
> And then, apparently, you started insulting people.

I can well imagine how one has made the investment to install some
IRC client to get access to that presumed source of help. One is
happy to get it started and to understand what this join to a channel
might mean - and then nobody wants to react to a "my machine does not
boot" kind of question. Let us assume too little time to have passed
between that experience and the mail to this list.

irc.debian.org was an inappropriate address for that kind of help
seeked. A local Linux group for volunteers' help may work out better.
However, at least over here, the Linux user groups are somewhat on
the decline, much like nobody ever hears about Windows user groups.
Linux is just everywhere. When we send people off to look for help
locally, this effectively really means to either have a (friend's)*
friend who has done it before or to just ask any IT professional.

For improving synchronous help, I have no immediate idea. Anything
that comes to mind would cost money. And the Debian main pages would
need to point to that. This is then more Ubuntu than Debian, I think.

>> I also considered investing into the Debian project by donating
>> millions of dollars.
> [...]
> 
> If you really have so much money to spare, consider paid support from a
> consultant as listed under .

A million donated to Debian would have zero effect on irc.debian.org,
I presume. What would we do with a million for Debian? My personal
hunch is that Debian would best be served by having the donor starting a
viable business that uses our distro and where there is a gap in
functionality have that closed by a new Open Source development / patches
to existing software. :o) This sounds like an interesting separate
thread.

All the best,

Steffen





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Re: Greaat disappointment

[Josselin Mouette]

Le samedi 01 octobre 2011 à 01:55 +0200, Qactuar Rogue a écrit : 
> I do not want Debian anymore however. I do not wish to use software
> developed by those people who are surfing on your IRC channels, thank
> you very much.

I’m afraid I have to inform you that Debian is not developed by people
who spend their days trolling on #debian.

Cheers,
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