Re: Diversity statement for the Debian Project

[Ben Hutchings]

On Thu, 2012-03-29 at 14:10 +1100, Ben Finney wrote:
> Francesca Ciceri  writes:
> 
> > On Tue, Mar 27, 2012 at 08:42:28AM +1100, Ben Finney wrote:
> > > We should not commit to respecting opinions, but instead commit to
> > > respecting all people.
> >
> > How do you suggest to express it in the statement? 
> 
> That depends on the context of the statement; I'm in favour of making it
> rather minimal as some others in this thread have described.
> 
> For distinguishing the respect for opinion versus respect for the people
> who hold them, perhaps this:
> 
> We value healthy discussion and debate of all opinions, no matter
> who holds them. Ideas are always a valid target of criticism, and we
> welcome anyone who wants to respectfully join the discussion.

I still think we need to specify that we don't discriminate on grounds
of preferred bikeshed colour.

Ben.

-- 
Ben Hutchings
Horngren's Observation:
   Among economists, the real world is often a special case.


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Re: Diversity statement for the Debian Project

[Ben Finney]

Russ Allbery  writes:

> I have to admit that doesn't particularly fill me with joy [for
> various specific reasons]. […] I know what you mean, and I agree with
> it, but I think it also has some failure modes that we've suffered
> from in the past.

Yes, I accept those criticisms of my statements :-) and I agree better
wording is needed.

My main point in this thread has been to distinguish automatic respect
for people from automatic respect for the opinions they hold (yes to the
former, no to the latter).

I'm glad to see that point is relatively uncontroversial; I'll consider
this addressed so long as that is clear in whatever diversity statement
emerges.

-- 
 \“I got food poisoning today. I don't know when I'll use it.” |
  `\—Steven Wright |
_o__)  |
Ben Finney


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Re: Diversity statement for the Debian Project

[Russ Allbery]

Ben Finney  writes:

> For distinguishing the respect for opinion versus respect for the people
> who hold them, perhaps this:

> We value healthy discussion and debate of all opinions, no matter
> who holds them. Ideas are always a valid target of criticism, and we
> welcome anyone who wants to respectfully join the discussion.

I have to admit that doesn't particularly fill me with joy.  I think one
of the things that makes Debian off-putting and unwelcoming is that we're
a little *too* obsessed with criticizing everyone's ideas, and what some
people see as "healthy discussion" other people see as "hurtful flamewars
over bike shed colors."  I'd kind of like to avoid saying something that
could be interpreted as "yes, please, argue with us!"  I know what you
mean, and I agree with it, but I think it also has some failure modes that
we've suffered from in the past.

Hm.  I guess I'd tend to instead say something about disagreeing
respectfully and constructive debate rather than using the word
"criticism" (which I realize has a dictionary definition much along the
lines of constructive debate, when applied to, say, literary criticism,
but that's not the connotation most people will take from it).

-- 
Russ Allbery (r...@debian.org)   


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Re: revenue sharing agreement with DuckDuckGo

[Kumar Appaiah]

Dear Paul,

On Thu, Mar 29, 2012 at 11:04:16AM +0800, Paul Wise wrote:
> > Ah, I miswrote. What I meant was, that if you use vanilla Iceweasel,
> > you can already tell that that hit was from a Debian machine. You do
> > need a user-agent swticher (or equivalent), as you rightly say, to
> > switch what is sent as user-agent.
> 
> AFAICT, that isn't true, unless you think that Iceweasel will never be
> available on non-Debian platforms.

You are right.

> > Currently, if I use Iceweasel to search on Google using it's default
> > home page, it appends a "client=iceweasel-a". Do you imply that this
> > setting should be reverted?
> 
> This thread is about DDG, so your question is OT. I don't use the
> Iceweasel search widget, so it doesn't affect me, but I would think
> the User-Agent HTTP header is enough to let Google know which web
> browser users are using. If the client= parameter has some affect on
> money, it really should be named properly.

Well, I'd disagree here. The question is whether we wish to have
settings which reveal to a webmaster what settings are being used. By
default, Iceweasel in Debian does provide an indication to Google that
the query is likely from a Debian machine; whether Google is using
that or not is a different matter, but that information is being
provided anyway. One way to look at this would be to ask why this
could not be repeated with DDG (adding a client= or the like). Or, an
alternate way to maintain consistency would be to remove the client=
for Google as well (without loss of functionality?).

> > In other words, are you not strictly opposed to them looking for these
> > strings and finding them, but it should be up to the user to decide
> > whether or not they would like these strings identifying Debian to be
> > sent. Is that correct?
> 
> No. Whether or not browsers should identify the OS they are running on
> is not part of my point (I think they should not). My point is that
> where the money goes should be a choice of the user, with the default
> suggested to the user determined by upstream. Debian should exert no
> influence over that choice, except maybe asking upstream to add us to
> the choices available to the user.

I agree with this. Thank you.

Kumar
-- 
"...very few phenomena can pull someone out of Deep Hack Mode, with two
noted exceptions: being struck by lightning, or worse, your *computer*
being struck by lightning."
(By Matt Welsh)


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Re: Diversity statement for the Debian Project

[Ben Finney]

Francesca Ciceri  writes:

> On Tue, Mar 27, 2012 at 08:42:28AM +1100, Ben Finney wrote:
> > We should not commit to respecting opinions, but instead commit to
> > respecting all people.
>
> How do you suggest to express it in the statement? 

That depends on the context of the statement; I'm in favour of making it
rather minimal as some others in this thread have described.

For distinguishing the respect for opinion versus respect for the people
who hold them, perhaps this:

We value healthy discussion and debate of all opinions, no matter
who holds them. Ideas are always a valid target of criticism, and we
welcome anyone who wants to respectfully join the discussion.

-- 
 \   “To have the choice between proprietary software packages, is |
  `\  being able to choose your master. Freedom means not having a |
_o__)master.” —Richard M. Stallman, 2007-05-16 |
Ben Finney


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Re: revenue sharing agreement with DuckDuckGo

[Paul Wise]

On Thu, Mar 29, 2012 at 10:41 AM, Kumar Appaiah wrote:

> Ah, I miswrote. What I meant was, that if you use vanilla Iceweasel,
> you can already tell that that hit was from a Debian machine. You do
> need a user-agent swticher (or equivalent), as you rightly say, to
> switch what is sent as user-agent.

AFAICT, that isn't true, unless you think that Iceweasel will never be
available on non-Debian platforms.

> Currently, if I use Iceweasel to search on Google using it's default
> home page, it appends a "client=iceweasel-a". Do you imply that this
> setting should be reverted?

This thread is about DDG, so your question is OT. I don't use the
Iceweasel search widget, so it doesn't affect me, but I would think
the User-Agent HTTP header is enough to let Google know which web
browser users are using. If the client= parameter has some affect on
money, it really should be named properly.

> In other words, are you not strictly opposed to them looking for these
> strings and finding them, but it should be up to the user to decide
> whether or not they would like these strings identifying Debian to be
> sent. Is that correct?

No. Whether or not browsers should identify the OS they are running on
is not part of my point (I think they should not). My point is that
where the money goes should be a choice of the user, with the default
suggested to the user determined by upstream. Debian should exert no
influence over that choice, except maybe asking upstream to add us to
the choices available to the user.

-- 
bye,
pabs

http://wiki.debian.org/PaulWise


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Re: revenue sharing agreement with DuckDuckGo

[Kumar Appaiah]

Dear Paul,

On Thu, Mar 29, 2012 at 10:27:05AM +0800, Paul Wise wrote:
> On Thu, Mar 29, 2012 at 9:56 AM, Kumar Appaiah wrote:
> 
> > The current default for some browsers in Debian informs webmasters
> > about which browser is being used.
> 
> I think you mean "all browsers" rather than "some browsers"? Are there
> actually browsers that do not send the User-Agent HTTP header by
> default? I'm using xul-ext-useragentswitcher to disable sending the
> User-Agent header but I doubt any browsers will ever do that by
> default.

Ah, I miswrote. What I meant was, that if you use vanilla Iceweasel,
you can already tell that that hit was from a Debian machine. You do
need a user-agent swticher (or equivalent), as you rightly say, to
switch what is sent as user-agent.

> > The user can, naturally, change it
> > to suit his/her needs. How does merely using this string to track hits
> > to DDG (with no changes to the default user-agent) change anything for
> > the user? They can track us anyway, right now, right?
> 
> Probably you missed the part of the email that says we should add
> t=debian by default to every new DDG search URL? I would suggest that
> it should be up to the users what t= should be set to when sending
> search requests to DDG, not Debian.

Currently, if I use Iceweasel to search on Google using it's default
home page, it appends a "client=iceweasel-a". Do you imply that this
setting should be reverted?

> If DDG wants to donate money to Debian based on User-Agent then great,
> but I don't see how they can do that yet, given that many browsers in
> Debian probably don't mention Debian in User-Agent. Of the ones I
> tested, only elinks and epiphany-browser do that.

In other words, are you not strictly opposed to them looking for these
strings and finding them, but it should be up to the user to decide
whether or not they would like these strings identifying Debian to be
sent. Is that correct?

Thank you for clarifying.

Kumar

-- 
Ooh, mommy, mommy, what I have now doesn't work in this extremely
unlikely circumstance, so I'll just throw it away and write something
completely new.
-- Linus Torvalds


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Re: revenue sharing agreement with DuckDuckGo

[Paul Wise]

On Thu, Mar 29, 2012 at 9:56 AM, Kumar Appaiah wrote:

> The current default for some browsers in Debian informs webmasters
> about which browser is being used.

I think you mean "all browsers" rather than "some browsers"? Are there
actually browsers that do not send the User-Agent HTTP header by
default? I'm using xul-ext-useragentswitcher to disable sending the
User-Agent header but I doubt any browsers will ever do that by
default.

> The user can, naturally, change it
> to suit his/her needs. How does merely using this string to track hits
> to DDG (with no changes to the default user-agent) change anything for
> the user? They can track us anyway, right now, right?

Probably you missed the part of the email that says we should add
t=debian by default to every new DDG search URL? I would suggest that
it should be up to the users what t= should be set to when sending
search requests to DDG, not Debian.

If DDG wants to donate money to Debian based on User-Agent then great,
but I don't see how they can do that yet, given that many browsers in
Debian probably don't mention Debian in User-Agent. Of the ones I
tested, only elinks and epiphany-browser do that.

-- 
bye,
pabs

http://wiki.debian.org/PaulWise


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Re: revenue sharing agreement with DuckDuckGo

[Kumar Appaiah]

On Thu, Mar 29, 2012 at 09:27:38AM +0800, Paul Wise wrote:
> I would lean towards doing nothing and pointing them at our donations page:
> 
> http://www.debian.org/donations#money_donations
> 
> If we want to spend time on doing anything else, it should be flexible
> enough that the outcome is chosen by the user, not Debian.

Maybe I did not understand it correctly in spite of reading through
the thread, so forgive me if I am repeating something or am incorrect.

The current default for some browsers in Debian informs webmasters
about which browser is being used. The user can, naturally, change it
to suit his/her needs. How does merely using this string to track hits
to DDG (with no changes to the default user-agent) change anything for
the user? They can track us anyway, right now, right?

Thanks.

Kumar
-- 
Be warned that typing \fBkillall \fIname\fP may not have the desired
effect on non-Linux systems, especially when done by a privileged user.
-- From the killall manual page


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Re: revenue sharing agreement with DuckDuckGo

[Paul Wise]

I would lean towards doing nothing and pointing them at our donations page:

http://www.debian.org/donations#money_donations

If we want to spend time on doing anything else, it should be flexible
enough that the outcome is chosen by the user, not Debian.

-- 
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pabs

http://wiki.debian.org/PaulWise


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Re: revenue sharing agreement with DuckDuckGo

[Charles Plessy]

Le Tue, Mar 27, 2012 at 10:26:18AM +0200, Stefano Zacchiroli a écrit :
> 
> [1] https://duckduckgo.com/
> 
> What they propose is:
> 
> - donating to Debian 25% of the income they make from inbound traffic
>   that originates from Debian users if DDG is a search engine option in
>   a web browser
...
> DDG will earmark traffic originating for Debian, for browsers who want
> to do so, by using the search URL
> https://duckduckgo.com/?q={{search}}&t=debian . Mike, with his
> maintainer hat on, is fine with using such a search string in
> Iceweasel. Other browsers, if the respective maintainers want to, might
> end up doing the same.

Dear all,

my feeling about DDG's proposition is that it reminds me similar attempts to
automatically collect users statistics, against which we usually take a hard
line.  In case of science packages (I hope you are not tired of this...), it
can for instance be mandatory registration forms, non-free license terms, etc.
Users statistics is a crucial information for some projects, which can
influence whether they continue or are terminated, and it is very hard for us
to push Debian's principles against this perspective.

One main difference is that DDG proposes to pay to obtain an exception to the
rule.  Taken together with the trademarks, where the projects that can buy one
can make restrictions that the projects that only use copyright licenses can
not, it gives me the feeling that we are being strong with the weak, and weak
with the strong.

Adding "&t=debian" to search URLs bring no direct technical benefit for the
users.  DDG has a nice policy about privacy, but for the rest it looks like an
elaborated proxy to make Yahoo queries, with a bit of enhancements for the
keywords that can be found in Wikipedia and other mainstream sites.  All in
all, it is not free software.  I think that it is great to have it available in
the search box, and actually, it was already there before they made their
propositions.  So their "25%" proposition is mostly about tracking users.

I think that we should not add tracking features by default.  This said, having
a partnership working in an opt-in manner like Popcon could be an insteresting
experiment, if there are volunteers to run it.

DDG also makes direct donations to Free Software projects
(http://www.gabrielweinberg.com/blog/2011/02/duckduckgo-foss-donations-2010.html
http://www.gabrielweinberg.com/blog/2012/03/duckduckgo-foss-donations-2011.html 
).
I think that this is the way to go: receiving donation from projects which 
use Debian and want Debian to continue.  In the case of DDG, it means that we
need to outcompete FreeBSD...

Have a nice day,

-- 
Charles Plessy
Tsurumi, Kanagawa, Japan


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Re: Diversity statement for the Debian Project

[Russ Allbery]

Russ Allbery  writes:

> The first step in being diverse is being *aware*.  You cannot be aware
> when you're blind.

And, just to point out how hard this is, as well as to further illustrate
the general point that any post pointing out a spelling error contains at
least one spelling error, this is a horrible metaphor.  My desire to make
rhetorical plays off of the phrase "gender-blind" don't justify using
disability as a metaphor for bad things.  And given that I know blind
people who are most certainly aware, I should know better.

I apologize.

(And thank you to the private email that very gently pointed this out.)

-- 
Russ Allbery (r...@debian.org)   


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Re: revenue sharing agreement with DuckDuckGo

[Clint Adams]

On Wed, Mar 28, 2012 at 09:25:48AM +0100, Philip Hands wrote:
>Do you mind trading a little privacy to allow us to declare your use
>of Debian to search engines, and thus possibly benefit from revenue
>sharing arising from your searches?

I think this would risk implying that we are in some other ways
promoting privacy in the user's web browsing experience, when
in fact we are not.


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Re: Diversity statement for the Debian Project

[Mark Brown]

On Tue, Mar 27, 2012 at 04:40:58PM +0200, Jonas Smedegaard wrote:
> On 12-03-27 at 03:45pm, Francesca Ciceri wrote:

> > Yes, I agree on accuracy. But please, note that "neurotype" - even if 
> > it hasn't scientific recognition as concept - is the way some people 
> > define themselves. And we must respect it.

> I favor what others have suggested: Completely avoid listing specific 
> kinds of diversities to avoid misinterpretation that we _favor_ being 
> non-diversive in certain ways.

> I don't mind listing some - but I fear the bikeshedding of which that 
> should then be.  You have "neurotype" as a favorite.  I can imagine many 
> having various favorites ;-)

I agree with Jonas here I'd also add that an enormous list of topics of
discrimination doesn't make for inspiring prose either, making the whole
thing seem like a bureaucratic exercise.


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Re: revenue sharing agreement with DuckDuckGo

[Peter Samuelson]

[Philip Hands]
> Should this not be a debconf question, along the lines of popcon, but as
> a machine wide:
> 
>Do you mind trading a little privacy to allow us to declare your use
>of Debian to search engines, and thus possibly benefit from revenue
>sharing arising from your searches?

Why even bring up the money?  The question of "should we expose that
you're running Debian" is so much bigger than DDG.

- Debian-specific 'User-Agent' string in some (most?) browsers

- Debian-specific default home page portal thingy for some browsers

- {n}.debian.pool.ntp.org default NTP server list (telling the DNS
  admins of pool.ntp.org)

- Default apache index.html (or is that Debian-specific these days - it
  used to be, at least)

- Debian-specific sshd banner

Granted, the last two are server side, not client side, but the point
is, there's all sorts of ways for the rest of the Internet to know
you're using Debian, not just nmap.
-- 
Peter Samuelson | org-tld!p12n!peter | http://p12n.org/


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Debian Maintainers Keyring changes

[Debian FTP Masters]

The following changes to the debian-maintainers keyring have just been 
activated:

si...@josefsson.org
Added key: 4804FF020FDF1E5D39B8C10660CEE711105E722E

Debian distribution maintenance software,
on behalf of the Keyring maintainers


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Re: revenue sharing agreement with DuckDuckGo

[Andreas Tille]

Hi,

On Tue, Mar 27, 2012 at 01:32:18PM -0400, Joey Hess wrote:
> Steffen Möller wrote:
> > The problem I see is with a
> > competition with upstream. If we  in any way lower the impact firefox
> > has for google, then this has a direct effect not only on firefox but
> > also on our relation with them and other upstreams.
> 
> That is what I came here to say. It needs to be considered carefully.

Sidenote:  Do we really have a good relation to firefox?  We do not have
a package with this name and I have heard people that *exactly* this
would be the reason not to use Debian.  Not that I would agree upon this
opinion, just mentioning it.

Kind regards

   Andreas.

PS: Perhaps I should have changed the subject - but I do not intend to
say more in this firefox/iceweasel discussion.  In case you mind
answering about this topic please change the subject.

-- 
http://fam-tille.de


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Re: revenue sharing agreement with DuckDuckGo

[Luca Filipozzi]

On Wed, Mar 28, 2012 at 10:52:49AM +0200, Steffen Moeller wrote:
> How much money are we talking about? Less than $5000? More? Difficult
> to say, between 1000 and 1?

Per the recent sprint report, hardware is becoming one of the biggest
expense categories for Debian.

I support and applaud Stefano's effort to secure additional funding for
the project.

While I'd prefer having unencumberd cash donations and preferential
(manufacturer's internal cost) hardware pricing, I'm willing to explore
the DDG relationship, especially if we offer users the ability to opt
out (or in).

-- 
Luca Filipozzi


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Re: revenue sharing agreement with DuckDuckGo

[Steffen Möller]

On 03/28/2012 10:25 AM, Philip Hands wrote:
> On Wed, 28 Mar 2012 00:06:46 +0200, Stefano Zacchiroli  
> wrote:
>> On Tue, Mar 27, 2012 at 01:55:37PM -0400, Joey Hess wrote:
 DDG will earmark traffic originating for Debian, for browsers who want
 to do so, by using the search URL
 https://duckduckgo.com/?q={{search}}&t=debian
>>> The privacy implications of this need to be considered. At least for
>>> Chromium there is no indication in the user agent that the user is
>>> using Debian.
>> Thanks for pointing this out. Let's consider them then.
> Should this not be a debconf question, along the lines of popcon, but as
> a machine wide:
>
>Do you mind trading a little privacy to allow us to declare your use
>of Debian to search engines, and thus possibly benefit from revenue
>sharing arising from your searches?
>
> No idea if that should default to yes or no.  It also might be better to
> make that less search specific.
>
> We could also have a debconf question for setting the default search
> engine across all browsers, which defaults to unset, and is low
> priority, so that people can preseed it, but the browser packagers get
> to make their own decisions if the value has not been set.
I think we give up too much of our principles with that. DDG loudly
states not to track us on their pages and the first thing we talk about
is to tell them more about ourselves. I find that ironic.

How much money are we talking about? Less than $5000? More? Difficult to
say, between 1000 and 1? Is Krenn donating any amount with every day
a Debian instance is running on their servers? If we think that DDG's
principles are very much like ours, but if we also agree that they can
well use the money they get themselves to further improve their
technology, then maybe we should just ask for the money they can afford
and want to give? Let them make an estimate about how much Debian's
contribution possibly was and happily accept that.

In my opinion we should find ways to help Open Source-supporting
companies like DDG but do not make any compromise with our principles.
Andy maybe they can help us best by employing someone of or close to us?
They can invite upstreams and Debian developers for sprints at their
site about distributed computing, organise bug squashing parties ...
there is so much they can do which helps their standing in the Open
Source community and helps us.

Steffen








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Re: Report from DSA Team Sprint in Oslo

[Stefano Zacchiroli]

On Tue, Mar 27, 2012 at 04:40:47PM +0200, Tollef Fog Heen wrote:
> It'll be of the form of a mail, once a year where you put an X next to
> the group memberships you'd like to keep and send it back, gpg-signed,
> or similar, so I don't really think we'll bother with differentiating
> between dangerous and innocent groups.

Ooooh, interesting, that is a welcome change. Thanks for working on it!

-- 
Stefano Zacchiroli zack@{upsilon.cc,pps.jussieu.fr,debian.org} . o .
Maître de conférences   ..   http://upsilon.cc/zack   ..   . . o
Debian Project Leader...   @zack on identi.ca   ...o o o
« the first rule of tautology club is the first rule of tautology club »


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Re: revenue sharing agreement with DuckDuckGo

[Philip Hands]

On Wed, 28 Mar 2012 00:06:46 +0200, Stefano Zacchiroli  wrote:
> On Tue, Mar 27, 2012 at 01:55:37PM -0400, Joey Hess wrote:
> > > DDG will earmark traffic originating for Debian, for browsers who want
> > > to do so, by using the search URL
> > > https://duckduckgo.com/?q={{search}}&t=debian
> > 
> > The privacy implications of this need to be considered. At least for
> > Chromium there is no indication in the user agent that the user is
> > using Debian.
> 
> Thanks for pointing this out. Let's consider them then.

Should this not be a debconf question, along the lines of popcon, but as
a machine wide:

   Do you mind trading a little privacy to allow us to declare your use
   of Debian to search engines, and thus possibly benefit from revenue
   sharing arising from your searches?

No idea if that should default to yes or no.  It also might be better to
make that less search specific.

We could also have a debconf question for setting the default search
engine across all browsers, which defaults to unset, and is low
priority, so that people can preseed it, but the browser packagers get
to make their own decisions if the value has not been set.

Cheers, Phil.
-- 
|)|  Philip Hands [+44 (0)20 8530 9560]http://www.hands.com/
|-|  HANDS.COM Ltd.http://www.uk.debian.org/
|(|  10 Onslow Gardens, South Woodford, London  E18 1NE  ENGLAND


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Re: revenue sharing agreement with DuckDuckGo

[Philip Hands]

On Tue, 27 Mar 2012 23:33:37 +0200, Stefano Zacchiroli  
wrote:
...
> As part of DDG "open source policy", they want to give us a cut of what
> they make out of our traffic. It's not like Google should be entitled to
> tell us "thou shalt not accept that money".

No, I meant that they might be upset by being dropped from being the
_default_ in favour of DDG -- never mind, I really doubt they care much.

Cheers, Phil.
-- 
|)|  Philip Hands [+44 (0)20 8530 9560]http://www.hands.com/
|-|  HANDS.COM Ltd.http://www.uk.debian.org/
|(|  10 Onslow Gardens, South Woodford, London  E18 1NE  ENGLAND


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Re: revenue sharing agreement with DuckDuckGo

[Stefano Zacchiroli]

On Tue, Mar 27, 2012 at 07:38:19PM -0400, Joey Hess wrote:
> > there and not as an attachment simply because I haven't yet
> > explicitly asked if I can shared it publicly, but I doubt there will
> > be a problem with that.)
> 
> AFAICS, section 5 of its Terms requires that the document be treated
> confidentially.

Yes. But we can ask for a different provision (and have it written
down), if we feel strongly about it.

> Anther interesting thing in there is a requirement that we inform DDG
> thirty days in advance of releasing changes to the implementation of
> the links to it.

It mentions before "product release". We can ask to clarify that will be
interpreted, in the context of Debian, as stable releases. But even in
the most strict interpretation (i.e. an upload), what we risk is that
the agreement will be recessed and we stop receiving the donations.
Money-wise it is not worse than the status quo.

Cheers.
-- 
Stefano Zacchiroli zack@{upsilon.cc,pps.jussieu.fr,debian.org} . o .
Maître de conférences   ..   http://upsilon.cc/zack   ..   . . o
Debian Project Leader...   @zack on identi.ca   ...o o o
« the first rule of tautology club is the first rule of tautology club »


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