Re: GR proposal: code of conduct

[Wouter Verhelst]

On Fri, Mar 07, 2014 at 06:37:41PM +0100, Kurt Roeckx wrote:
> On Wed, Feb 12, 2014 at 11:59:42AM +0100, Wouter Verhelst wrote:
> > ==
> > 1. The Debian project decides to accept a code of conduct for
> >participants to its mailinglists, IRC channels, and other modes of
> >communication within the project.
> 
> So I've been wondering under which part of the constituion I
> should be putting all the options.  Are they position statements?

More like a "nontechnical policy document". But that's also 4.1.5 ;-)

-- 
This end should point toward the ground if you want to go to space.

If it starts pointing toward space you are having a bad problem and you
will not go to space today.

  -- http://xkcd.com/1133/


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Re: GR proposal: code of conduct

[Russ Allbery]

Peter Samuelson  writes:
> [Jonathan Dowland]

>> I think the increasing importance of IRC for people to keep up to date
>> on developments in Debian is a bad thing as it excludes people who
>> cannot use IRC regularly enough (such as myself).

> Increasing importance?  What has changed?  I don't have the impression
> that IRC is any more central in Debian development than it was 10 years
> ago.

Agreed.  Other than specific meetings, I don't use IRC, and while I miss
out on a lot of social interaction, I don't feel like my ability to
participate in the project is particularly harmed by that.

(I love you all, but I already have a huge problem with getting distracted
by shiny discussions on the Internet rather than actually getting things
done, so plugging into another giant source of shiny conversations with
which I can distract myself seems like a bad move.)

-- 
Russ Allbery (r...@debian.org)   


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Re: GR proposal: code of conduct

[Peter Samuelson]

[Jonathan Dowland]
> I think the increasing importance of IRC for people to keep up to
> date on developments in Debian is a bad thing as it excludes people
> who cannot use IRC regularly enough (such as myself).

Increasing importance?  What has changed?  I don't have the impression
that IRC is any more central in Debian development than it was 10 years
ago.  

People said the same of the Debian Planet blog aggregator a few years
ago - that if you couldn't find the time and inclination to read
everyone's blogs, you'd miss a lot of Debian development.  I don't
think that turned out to be true either.

I think most people still understand "lists.debian.org or it didn't
happen".


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Re: GR proposal: code of conduct

[Kurt Roeckx]

On Fri, Mar 07, 2014 at 06:33:44PM +0100, Kurt Roeckx wrote:
> On Wed, Feb 12, 2014 at 11:59:42AM +0100, Wouter Verhelst wrote:
> > Hi all,
> > 
> > This is to propose a general resolution under §4.1.5 of the constitution
> > to propose a Debian code of conduct.
> 
> So I've put up a vote page with my current understanding at:
> https://www.debian.org/vote/2014/vote_002
> 
> I've made some minor changes since the version that's there now.
> 
> I intend to mail debian-devel-announce about this soon, so
> feedback about the current page is welcome.

It seems lines from the initial text with "#" where missing,
wml removed them.  I've just commited the fix for that.


Kurt


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Re: Jessie will still boot.

[Uwe Storbeck]

John Goerzen writes:
> Because, at the end of the day, it doesn't really matter all that much. It's 
> just a default.

I can only agree about the init system. The best supported system
will make it's way to the default anyway, sooner or later.

But the discussion is not about the default init system anymore,
it's about restricting maintainers to use new interfaces, new
technology in Debian.

Uwe


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Re: GR proposal: code of conduct

[Kurt Roeckx]

On Wed, Feb 12, 2014 at 11:59:42AM +0100, Wouter Verhelst wrote:
> ==
> 1. The Debian project decides to accept a code of conduct for
>participants to its mailinglists, IRC channels, and other modes of
>communication within the project.

So I've been wondering under which part of the constituion I
should be putting all the options.  Are they position statements?


Kurt


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Re: GR proposal: code of conduct

[Kurt Roeckx]

On Wed, Feb 12, 2014 at 11:59:42AM +0100, Wouter Verhelst wrote:
> Hi all,
> 
> This is to propose a general resolution under §4.1.5 of the constitution
> to propose a Debian code of conduct.

So I've put up a vote page with my current understanding at:
https://www.debian.org/vote/2014/vote_002

I've made some minor changes since the version that's there now.

I intend to mail debian-devel-announce about this soon, so
feedback about the current page is welcome.


Kurt


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Jessie will still boot.

[John Goerzen]

Dear folks,

I wise man once told me, years ago, that he had unsubscribed from
debian-devel because of all the noise.  I had thought that rather odd at
the time, but have come to appreciate it since.

Like many, I have my opinion in the init system (my choice: sysvinit -
it ain't broke, and I already understand it).

However.  At the end of the day, does anybody really think Jessie will
be released being unable to boot?  Unable to shut down?  Unable to log
people in?

No.  That won't happen.  It wasn't ever going to happen.  No matter
which of the init systems was used.

I see no reason we are spending more time talking about this than making
Jessie ready to release.

This is a decision that most users will never see.

I've been a DD since the 90s, and in my time I remember transitions and
decisions involving:

  * a.out to ELF
  * libc5 to libc6
  * different forks of GCC
  * GFDL disposition
  * different forks of X
  * different forks of cdrecord
  * default desktop
  * default editor

And yet, I cannot remember one that had a worse talk-to-utility ratio
than this one.

I can go on deleting threads all day long.  I would encourage more of
you to do the same.

Because, at the end of the day, it doesn't really matter all that much. 
It's just a default.



And Jessie will still boot.

Re: Proposal - preserve freedom of choice of init systems

[Matthew Vernon]

Hi,

Thibaut Paumard  writes:

> I am still waiting for your answer to my concerns before I make my mind
> on seconding this GR:
> https://lists.debian.org/debian-project/2014/03/msg00024.html
> 
> The problem, I think, is that the discussion was drawn onto procedural
> technicalities rather than discussing the the actual content of your GR.

I see Ian has just addressed this in -project; I don't feel the need
to expand on what he said.

Regards,

Matthew

-- 
"At least you know where you are with Microsoft."
"True. I just wish I'd brought a paddle."
http://www.debian.org


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Re: Proposal - preserve freedom of choice of init systems

[Ian Jackson]

Thibaut Paumard writes ("Re: Proposal - preserve freedom of choice of init 
systems"):
> I wonder whether this GR has the following corollary:

As the author of the TC text (which Matthew has simply adopted), I
think I can clarify this.  What I'm about to say will come as no
surprise to anyone who followed the relevant parts of the TC
discussion.

> "Packages shipping services or daemons must ship whatever is required to
> start and stop said service by any init system introduced in Debian in
> the past and future", which I think would be bad.

No.  It only says software may not "require _a_ specific init system"
(emphasis mine).  The text does not rule out a package supporting only
some subset of the available init systems - so long as that subset has
more than one member.

In practice so long as a package supports more than one init system,
making it support all init systems is a feasible (or even
straightforward) task.

> Also, is that OK for a package to Recommend a specific init system
> rather that Depend on it?

It doesn't talk about Depends or Recommends.  It talks about whether
the program works (or doesn't).

I think that "degraded operation" is exactly what one would expect
with a violated Recommends.

Ian.


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Re: GR proposal: code of conduct

[Ian Jackson]

Cyril Brulebois writes ("Re: GR proposal: code of conduct"):
> Kurt Roeckx  (2014-03-06):
> > As far as I can tell the problem is that you're not using MIME and
> > the same problem people have when voting using non-ASCII
> > characters.
> 
> Conveniently published not so long ago:
>   http://debian-administration.org/users/dkg/weblog/108
>   https://dkg.fifthhorseman.net/notes/inline-pgp-harmful/

I keep my key on a different machine to my mailreader.  I'm not aware
of any reasonable tools for supporting this kind of use.

(NB I don't consider "use the trusted machine as a signing oracle" a
good approach.  I want to know what it is I'm signing.)

Suggestions welcome.

Thanks,
Ian.


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Re: Proposal - preserve freedom of choice of init systems

[Thibaut Paumard]

Le 07/03/2014 10:52, Matthew Vernon a écrit :
>> I wish to propose the following general resolution,
> This has only had one second. 

Dear Matthew,

I am still waiting for your answer to my concerns before I make my mind
on seconding this GR:
https://lists.debian.org/debian-project/2014/03/msg00024.html

The problem, I think, is that the discussion was drawn onto procedural
technicalities rather than discussing the the actual content of your GR.

Kind regards, Thibaut.




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Re: Proposal - preserve freedom of choice of init systems

[Matthew Vernon]

Hi,

Matthew Vernon  writes:

> I wish to propose the following general resolution, and hereby call
> for seconds. I don't think further lengthy discussion of the issues is



This has only had one second. In order to not prolong things
indefinitely, I'll withdraw this GR if it's not got sufficient seconds
by Monday 17th; that's about another week.

Regards,

Matthew

-- 
"At least you know where you are with Microsoft."
"True. I just wish I'd brought a paddle."
http://www.debian.org


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