Re: Debian supports pridemonth?

[Paul Wise]

On Fri, Jun 28, 2019 at 8:10 PM Marc Haber wrote:

> Can we probably find consensus abut having one "Free Software Month" in
> the year?

I think it would be great to co-ordinate a "Free Software Month" with
the wider Free Software community.

Debian has participated in the FSFE's "I ♥ Free Software" campaign
several times over the years:

https://fsfe.org/campaigns/ilovefs/
https://micronews.debian.org/2019/1550183325.html
https://micronews.debian.org/2018/1518627115.html
https://bits.debian.org/2016/02/ilovefs-2016.html

-- 
bye,
pabs

https://wiki.debian.org/PaulWise

Re: Debian supports pridemonth?

[Roberto C . Sánchez]

On Fri, Jun 28, 2019 at 11:59:36AM -0700, Russ Allbery wrote:
> Roberto C. Sánchez  writes:
> 
> > Hispanic Heritage Month is coming in a few months (at least in the US,
> > not sure about international observances).  Perhaps Debian could make a
> > public show of support for those of Hispanic origin (who tend to be
> > drastically underrepresented in the community).  We already missed Black
> > Heritage Month this year in the US, but it is coming in October for
> > Europe and will come round again in February in the US.  Blacks, or
> > African-Americans, are similarly underrepresented in the community.
> 
> > Perhaps we could also show support for Jews and those of Jewish origin
> > during one of the principal festivals (Passover, Weeks, or Tabernacles).
> 
> I think this would be great.  Explicitly saying to our various communities
> on days of significance to that community that they are welcome and
> supported in Debian seems like a warm-hearted and open gesture, and I
> fully support it.  My employer does this for four or five of the events
> that are the most significant to company employees, and it's always very
> welcome.
> 
> The criteria I'd use (because we do have to draw some sort of line
> somewhere, since there are more days or months like this than there are
> days and months in the year if you look hard enough) is to let the
> relevant community in Debian take the lead.  That also avoids the
> occasional issues where there is some supposed recognition of a group that
> is controversial or unwanted within that group, which happens from time to
> time because humans are complicated.
> 
> So, we should look to our LGBTQ project members to decide what Debian
> should do for Pride, to our Hispanic members to decide what Debian should
> do for Hispanic Heritage Month, and so forth, since they're the experts on
> what they would find the most meaningful within the Debian context.
> 
That's very reasonable.

-- 
Roberto C. Sánchez

Re: Debian Videos

[Kyle Robbertze]

Hi Sam,

On 2019/06/28 21:05, Sam Hartman wrote:
> 
> [...]
> 
> If we did succeed in something like this I'm imagining releasing content
> both on a libre platform of some kind as well as youtube.
> Mostly I wanted to float the idea, get input.  Also wondering if anyone
> would be interested in meeting to discuss this at Debconf.

The Debconf video team has been talking about the idea of using Peertube
to present the Debian meetings archive videos [1] in a more user
friendly way. This same platform could be used for these videos too.

[1] https://meetings-archive.debian.net/pub/debian-meetings/


Cheers
-- 

⢀⣴⠾⠻⢶⣦⠀
⣾⠁⢠⠒⠀⣿⡁ Kyle Robbertze
⢿⡄⠘⠷⠚⠋⠀ Debian Developer
⠈⠳⣄ https://wiki.debian.org/KyleRobbertze



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Debian Videos

[Sam Hartman]

Speaking as an individual developer.

One of my coworkers, Matt Tennie, will be attending his first
Debconf this year.  He has a lot of video production experience .

He's been asking me questions about Debian, and somewhere along the way
we realized it would be great to make available answers to common
questions in a very accessible format.

I think an example could illustrate.

Matt asked me when gstreamer 0.16 would make its way into buster.  "It
won't," I said and moved on with whatever I was doing.

The next day he came back and said he really wanted to understand
better, because it didn't make any sense at all that we wouldn't want
the latest software.
So I started to explain about stability guarantees and stable releases.
I talked about hand reviewing changes during the release.  We  looked
at the reverse dependencies of gstreamer.  I talked about how even in
the best cases sometimes changes break a reverse dependency by
accident.  Then I talked about APIs and ABIs and started talking about
the cost in terms of man power of actually pulling in a change.

But to make a long story short, I gave the 10 minute version of  why do
we value stable releases, and what all is involved in that.

Matt and I were talking about how it would be fun to capture things like
this in videos and help users or new contributors understand what makes
Debian.

I think examples might include:

* The stable release discussion we already had

* When to use packaged software vs upstream software

* Why is it so hard to make a package for Debian

* Why it is involved to become a Debian developer (and how you can
  contribute with less effort if desired)

* Debian vs crates/gems/eggs/CPAN/what have you

I'm sure there are lots of these.

If we did succeed in something like this I'm imagining releasing content
both on a libre platform of some kind as well as youtube.
Mostly I wanted to float the idea, get input.  Also wondering if anyone
would be interested in meeting to discuss this at Debconf.


--Sam


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Re: Debian supports pridemonth?

[Russ Allbery]

Roberto C. Sánchez  writes:

> Hispanic Heritage Month is coming in a few months (at least in the US,
> not sure about international observances).  Perhaps Debian could make a
> public show of support for those of Hispanic origin (who tend to be
> drastically underrepresented in the community).  We already missed Black
> Heritage Month this year in the US, but it is coming in October for
> Europe and will come round again in February in the US.  Blacks, or
> African-Americans, are similarly underrepresented in the community.

> Perhaps we could also show support for Jews and those of Jewish origin
> during one of the principal festivals (Passover, Weeks, or Tabernacles).

I think this would be great.  Explicitly saying to our various communities
on days of significance to that community that they are welcome and
supported in Debian seems like a warm-hearted and open gesture, and I
fully support it.  My employer does this for four or five of the events
that are the most significant to company employees, and it's always very
welcome.

The criteria I'd use (because we do have to draw some sort of line
somewhere, since there are more days or months like this than there are
days and months in the year if you look hard enough) is to let the
relevant community in Debian take the lead.  That also avoids the
occasional issues where there is some supposed recognition of a group that
is controversial or unwanted within that group, which happens from time to
time because humans are complicated.

So, we should look to our LGBTQ project members to decide what Debian
should do for Pride, to our Hispanic members to decide what Debian should
do for Hispanic Heritage Month, and so forth, since they're the experts on
what they would find the most meaningful within the Debian context.

-- 
Russ Allbery (r...@debian.org)   

Re: Debian supports pridemonth?

[Eldon Koyle]

On Fri, Jun 28, 2019 at 4:30 AM Jonathan Carter  wrote:
>
> On 2019/06/28 11:48, Gerardo Ballabio wrote:
> > I do not think that this is appropriate. Welcoming diversity is one
> > thing, supporting pridemonth is another thing. Pridemonth is a set of
> > events with a definite political connotation.

>
> Probably a bit of a stretch to call it political. As far as I
> understand, all that it's about is a shared stance against bigotry and
> letting people know that it's ok to be different and that we accept
> people from a wide variety of walks of life. Seems in line with our
> current policies so I don't really see much of an issue there.


It is no stretch to call pridemonth political.  It is organized by extremely
political groups in an effort to further political and societal goals
(regardless
of how you view their goals).

Or are you claiming that it is a stretch to call the logo change a political
statement?

-- 
Eldon Koyle

Re: Debian supports pridemonth?

[Sam Hartman]

>> 3. what aspect of the political connotation of Pride Month you find
>> objectionable, if any.

>3. This is something I don't really think is on-topic on this list, or
>in Debian at large. However, since you asked, I especially find


Hi.
I think your first inclination was right.  I don't think it was
appropriate for Branden to ask you your politics, and I agree with you
that it's off topic for Debian.
Thank you very much for being open and honest,
but let's not discuss that particular sub thread any further.
You shouldn't need to share your objections to pride month, and you
should not have to face us critiquing them.

It is in fact not really on topic.

Re: Debian supports pridemonth?

[Gerardo Ballabio]

Il giorno ven 28 giu 2019 alle ore 12:45 G. Branden Robinson
 ha scritto:
> Can you please articulate:
> 1. what the definite political connotation of Pride Month is (feel free
> to cite a representative source);
> 2. how it is in conflict with the position statement at the official
> project URL you cite above; and
> 3. what aspect of the political connotation of Pride Month you find
> objectionable, if any.

1. Please excuse me if I don't spend the time to find proper sources.
I believe it's widely agreed that there is a significant correlation
between supporters of Pride Month and of its goals (see point 3) and
supporters of left-wing political parties.
2. I don't think there is necessarily a conflict, but I don't think
that Debian should give public support to every initiative so long as
it just does not conflict with it, particularly if that initiative is
known to be divisive.
3. This is something I don't really think is on-topic on this list, or
in Debian at large. However, since you asked, I especially find
objectionable:
- support for same-sex marriage
- support for adoption of children by same-sex couples.

> A great many issues have a relation to Free Software; among them is the
> problem of discrimination against and devaluation of software
> contributors and professionals who identify as non-cis, non-straight,
> and/or non-binary.

I would have no problems to support an initiative that advocates just
that and does not mix it with other, more controversial issues (see
above).
I also hope there will not be a similar problem of discrimination
against people who don't agree with (some or all of) "the values
celebrated by Pride Month".

> From my perspective, Pride Month has many objectives yet to achieve.
> For instance, Taiwan recently became the _first_ nation in Asia to
> legalize same-sex marriage, not the last.  It's widely agreed that Asia
> is a big place with lots of people.  Just to set a milestone, perhaps we
> can revisit this question when over half the world's population enjoys a
> right to same-sex marriage.

I gather from this that you regard same-sex marriage and other similar
issues as unconditionally "good things" -- so that the only reason not
to push for those would be that they have been already accepted by
everybody. If that's your perspective then I understand how you can't
possibly see any problem with Debian supporting initiatives like Pride
Month. But please consider that there are many people that do not
share that view.

Gerardo

Re: Debian supports pridemonth?

[Ondřej Surý]

On 28 Jun 2019, at 15:55, Sam Hartman  wrote:

>> "Roberto" == Roberto C Sánchez  writes:
> 
>Roberto> It does not seem that anything was done with the intent to
>Roberto> conceal the action, nor do I mean to imply such.  However,
>Roberto> the start of the thread was practically invisible
>Roberto> (especially for someone monitoring many Debian-related
>Roberto> mailing lists).  I would be surprised if more than a very
>Roberto> small handful people even knew such a change was in the
>Roberto> works.
> 
> The interesting question is whether those active in the publicity team
> were aware of the change.
> The whole point of delegation is to allow small groups of people to act
> quickly without reaching project consensus for everything.
> 
> If we're hearing from active parts of the www or publicity team that
> this was inadequately discussed, that's one thing.
> 
> The publicity team can seek broader project input when they need to, but
> has wide latitude within their area of responsibility.

And that’s how it should be. Thanks, Sam!

Ondřej
--
Ondřej Surý 

Re: Debian supports pridemonth?

[Sam Hartman]

> "Roberto" == Roberto C Sánchez  writes:

Roberto> It does not seem that anything was done with the intent to
Roberto> conceal the action, nor do I mean to imply such.  However,
Roberto> the start of the thread was practically invisible
Roberto> (especially for someone monitoring many Debian-related
Roberto> mailing lists).  I would be surprised if more than a very
Roberto> small handful people even knew such a change was in the
Roberto> works.

The interesting question is whether those active in the publicity team
were aware of the change.
The whole point of delegation is to allow small groups of people to act
quickly without reaching project consensus for everything.

If we're hearing from active parts of the www or publicity team that
this was inadequately discussed, that's one thing.

The publicity team can seek broader project input when they need to, but
has wide latitude within their area of responsibility.

Re: Debian supports pridemonth?

[Gerardo Ballabio]

Thanks for answering that specific question. I did indeed miss that.
Replying separately to the other posters.

Gerardo




Il giorno ven 28 giu 2019 alle ore 14:56 Sam Hartman
 ha scritto:
>
> Hi.
> Responding only to one thing at this time, and apologies if it has
> already been covered.
>
> This was discussed by the debian publicity team who is delegated to do
> this sort of thing.  In particular, they are charged by the project and
> DPL to promote Debian consistent with its policies and their choices.
> Like most of our teams they have significant latitude.  In this
> instance, they are guided by the constitution which encourages delegates
> to respect project consensus/policies/positions.  So, they are guided by
> the GR approving the diversity statement.
>
> This action was discussed on their public list.

Re: Debian supports pridemonth?

[Roberto C . Sánchez]

On Fri, Jun 28, 2019 at 08:56:03AM -0400, Sam Hartman wrote:
> Hi.
> Responding only to one thing at this time, and apologies if it has
> already been covered.
> 
> This was discussed by the debian publicity team who is delegated to do
> this sort of thing.  In particular, they are charged by the project and
> DPL to promote Debian consistent with its policies and their choices.
> Like most of our teams they have significant latitude.  In this
> instance, they are guided by the constitution which encourages delegates
> to respect project consensus/policies/positions.  So, they are guided by
> the GR approving the diversity statement.
> 
> This action was discussed on their public list.
> 
Hmm.  That's interesting.

The thread began with a message bearing the subject line "Small actions
and large impacts" on 2nd June.  The final message in the thread, dated
more than three weeks after the initial message and 19 days after the
most recent prior message, changed the subject to "Debian Diversity logo
in webpage, please update translations".  It included the following
text:

"We have changed the main website logo too (visible in every webpage
under www.debian.org), and published a micronews:";

That indicates that the change had already been made at that point.

It does not seem that anything was done with the intent to conceal the
action, nor do I mean to imply such.  However, the start of the thread
was practically invisible (especially for someone monitoring many
Debian-related mailing lists).  I would be surprised if more than a very
small handful people even knew such a change was in the works.

Perhaps there should be an effort to better highlight such highly
visible things before they take effect?

Regards,

-Roberto

-- 
Roberto C. Sánchez

Re: Debian supports pridemonth?

[Sam Hartman]

Hi.
Responding only to one thing at this time, and apologies if it has
already been covered.

This was discussed by the debian publicity team who is delegated to do
this sort of thing.  In particular, they are charged by the project and
DPL to promote Debian consistent with its policies and their choices.
Like most of our teams they have significant latitude.  In this
instance, they are guided by the constitution which encourages delegates
to respect project consensus/policies/positions.  So, they are guided by
the GR approving the diversity statement.

This action was discussed on their public list.

Re: Debian supports pridemonth?

[Marc Haber]

On Fri, Jun 28, 2019 at 07:54:34AM -0400, Roberto C. Sánchez wrote:
> Agreed.  This is as uncomplicated as the suggestions I made above for
> Debian to show solidarity with similarly affected groups.  I hope that
> we can do that with the same enthusiasm as in this instance.  There are
> sure to be other groups which I have overlooked and hope that additional
> suggestions are forthcoming from others.

How much will being enthusiastic for various underrepresented
communities make the people who care about Free Software and an
Universal Operating System underrepresented in Debian?

Can we probably find consensus abut having one "Free Software Month" in
the year?

Greetings
Marc, caring about technology

-- 
-
Marc Haber | "I don't trust Computers. They | Mailadresse im Header
Leimen, Germany|  lose things."Winona Ryder | Fon: *49 6224 1600402
Nordisch by Nature |  How to make an American Quilt | Fax: *49 6224 1600421

Re: Debian supports pridemonth?

[Roberto C . Sánchez]

On Fri, Jun 28, 2019 at 12:29:55PM +0200, Jonathan Carter wrote:
> On 2019/06/28 11:48, Gerardo Ballabio wrote:
> > I do not think that this is appropriate. Welcoming diversity is one
> > thing, supporting pridemonth is another thing. Pridemonth is a set of
> > events with a definite political connotation. I don't think that
> > Debian should take sides on any specific political issues (except of
> > course issues that have a relation to free software), especially if
> > that hasn't been discussed at large among project members and there
> > isn't a clear consensus.
> > 
I personally think that a public statement such as this should at least
have been discussed among the project members prior to being made
public.

> > Is it just me (and am I being blatantly wrong, if so please enlighten
> > me) or do others share my concern?
> 
> Probably a bit of a stretch to call it political.

In other discussions Russ Allbery has articulated the entanglement
between Debian's objectives as a project and "politics" in various forms
(i.e., is Debian and/or free software inherently political?).  He did a
far better job explaining it than I ever could so I will not try to
replicate the discussion here, but my recollection is that he concluded
that in some ways being political cannot be avoided.

> As far as I
> understand, all that it's about is a shared stance against bigotry and
> letting people know that it's ok to be different and that we accept
> people from a wide variety of walks of life. Seems in line with our
> current policies so I don't really see much of an issue there.
> 
I understand it to be generally the same as well.

Looking at the history of vote.debian.org there have been GRs for far
less consequential matters.  To say that this one did not at least merit
a "by the way fellow Debian community members, next week the project
plans to announce blah blah blah" is perhaps not consistent with the
principle and goal of transparency that we uphold.

If this really is such a minor issue, I would like to offer some
suggestions for ways in which we can further strengthen our "shared
stance against bigotry and letting people know that it's ok to be
different and that we accept people from a wide variety of walks of
life."

Hispanic Heritage Month is coming in a few months (at least in the US,
not sure about international observances).  Perhaps Debian could make a
public show of support for those of Hispanic origin (who tend to be
drastically underrepresented in the community).  We already missed Black
Heritage Month this year in the US, but it is coming in October for
Europe and will come round again in February in the US.  Blacks, or
African-Americans, are similarly underrepresented in the community.

Perhaps we could also show support for Jews and those of Jewish origin
during one of the principal festivals (Passover, Weeks, or Tabernacles).

In addition to being underrepresensted, all of those groups have at
times in history experienced bigotry and persecution comparable to (if
not exceeding) that which became the genesis of pride observances within
the LGBT community.

> Debian isn't aligning itself with any specific political movement here
> so I think in that context, it's really a non-issue. Even if it were,
> there are going to be places where you're going to have to pick sides
> when protecting basic freedoms become political. This one is very
> uncomplicated though.
> 

Agreed.  This is as uncomplicated as the suggestions I made above for
Debian to show solidarity with similarly affected groups.  I hope that
we can do that with the same enthusiasm as in this instance.  There are
sure to be other groups which I have overlooked and hope that additional
suggestions are forthcoming from others.

Regards,

-Roberto
-- 
Roberto C. Sánchez

Re: Debian supports pridemonth?

[G. Branden Robinson]

At 2019-06-28T11:48:18+0200, Gerardo Ballabio wrote:
> Hello all,
> I've just seen this on https://micronews.debian.org/ :
> 
> "In support of #pridemonth, Debian changes its website logo. The
> Debian Project welcomes and encourages participation by everyone
> https://www.debian.org/intro/diversity "
> 
> May I please ask who decided that and where was it discussed? (I can't
> find anything about it at least on -project.)

It's consistent with what I personally perceive to have been the values
of the project for at least the past 20 years.

> I do not think that this is appropriate. Welcoming diversity is one
> thing, supporting pridemonth is another thing. Pridemonth is a set of
> events with a definite political connotation.

Can you please articulate:
1. what the definite political connotation of Pride Month is (feel free
to cite a representative source);
2. how it is in conflict with the position statement at the official
project URL you cite above; and
3. what aspect of the political connotation of Pride Month you find
objectionable, if any.

> I don't think that Debian should take sides on any specific political
> issues (except of course issues that have a relation to free
> software),

A great many issues have a relation to Free Software; among them is the
problem of discrimination against and devaluation of software
contributors and professionals who identify as non-cis, non-straight,
and/or non-binary.

More broadly, I consider the political project of not mere tolerance,
but an embrace of diversity as consistent with the liberal tradition of
John Stuart Mill, which is some centuries old and underpins the cultural
milieu which gave rise to the Debian Project in the first place.

> especially if that hasn't been discussed at large among project
> members and there isn't a clear consensus.

It has been discussed for many years, and in my estimation the Project
reached a position of non-accommodation with those hostile to the values
celebrated by Pride Month.

It may be worth remembering that Pride Month originates as a
commemoration of a resistance action against a culture of police
violence and impunity.  The Stonewall Riots of 1969 are well-known in
the United States.

> Is it just me (and am I being blatantly wrong, if so please enlighten
> me) or do others share my concern?

It is worthwhile on occasion to revisit even fundamental questions and
positions, and evaluate whether they continue to the serve our project.

From my perspective, Pride Month has many objectives yet to achieve.
For instance, Taiwan recently became the _first_ nation in Asia to
legalize same-sex marriage, not the last.  It's widely agreed that Asia
is a big place with lots of people.  Just to set a milestone, perhaps we
can revisit this question when over half the world's population enjoys a
right to same-sex marriage.

Regards,
Branden


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Re: Debian supports pridemonth?

[Jonathan Carter]

On 2019/06/28 11:48, Gerardo Ballabio wrote:
> I do not think that this is appropriate. Welcoming diversity is one
> thing, supporting pridemonth is another thing. Pridemonth is a set of
> events with a definite political connotation. I don't think that
> Debian should take sides on any specific political issues (except of
> course issues that have a relation to free software), especially if
> that hasn't been discussed at large among project members and there
> isn't a clear consensus.
> 
> Is it just me (and am I being blatantly wrong, if so please enlighten
> me) or do others share my concern?

Probably a bit of a stretch to call it political. As far as I
understand, all that it's about is a shared stance against bigotry and
letting people know that it's ok to be different and that we accept
people from a wide variety of walks of life. Seems in line with our
current policies so I don't really see much of an issue there.

Debian isn't aligning itself with any specific political movement here
so I think in that context, it's really a non-issue. Even if it were,
there are going to be places where you're going to have to pick sides
when protecting basic freedoms become political. This one is very
uncomplicated though.

-Jonathan

-- 
  ⢀⣴⠾⠻⢶⣦⠀  Jonathan Carter (highvoltage) 
  ⣾⠁⢠⠒⠀⣿⡁  Debian Developer - https://wiki.debian.org/highvoltage
  ⢿⡄⠘⠷⠚⠋   https://debian.org | https://jonathancarter.org
  ⠈⠳⣄  Be Bold. Be brave. Debian has got your back.

Debian supports pridemonth?

[Gerardo Ballabio]

Hello all,
I've just seen this on https://micronews.debian.org/ :

"In support of #pridemonth, Debian changes its website logo. The
Debian Project welcomes and encourages participation by everyone
https://www.debian.org/intro/diversity "

May I please ask who decided that and where was it discussed? (I can't
find anything about it at least on -project.)

I do not think that this is appropriate. Welcoming diversity is one
thing, supporting pridemonth is another thing. Pridemonth is a set of
events with a definite political connotation. I don't think that
Debian should take sides on any specific political issues (except of
course issues that have a relation to free software), especially if
that hasn't been discussed at large among project members and there
isn't a clear consensus.

Is it just me (and am I being blatantly wrong, if so please enlighten
me) or do others share my concern?

Thanks
Gerardo

(Not subscribed, please keep me Cc:d)