Re: Debian supports pridemonth?

2019-07-01 Thread Martina Ferrari 
On 01/07/2019 19:22, Sam Hartman wrote:

> Adrian> Debian having a position on general political issues can be
> Adrian> dangerous.
> 
> Absolutely.
> I think that each time we should link what we're doing back to our goal
> of making a great free software operating system for our users.
> And link back to our priorities of our users and free software.
> In this instance, the link is obvious for me.
> We as a community have decided that being inclusive helps us make a
> great free software operating system.

I don't think we want to be inclusive to make a better OS. Like we don't
work on free software just because it lead to better software quality.
We know that is not necessarily true, and we know that we do free
software because we believe it it.

Similarly, I think the Diversity Statement reflects what another facet
of what we believe in: that "The Debian Project welcomes and encourages
participation by everyone" not for any particular practical gain, but
because we want to embrace our colleagues from any and all different
backgrounds, because they are people just like us.

-- 
-- 
Martina Ferrari (Tina, the artist formerly known as Tincho)



signature.asc
Description: OpenPGP digital signature

Article Placement Inquiry on debian.org

2019-07-01 Thread Mathew Michelles 
Hi team at Debian

How are you?

Do you offer *article placements* on your site: debian.org

- We would get the article written which will fit the nature/topic of your
site.
- In the article there is a good chance there will be a link going to a
gaming/betting review site, which will be very well integrated.
- Payment is made via Paypal.

What are your rates for such a placement?

Thank you

*Mathew - Media Manager*
Webcontentzone.com

Re: Debian supports pridemonth?

2019-07-01 Thread Eldon Koyle 
On Mon, Jul 1, 2019 at 5:24 PM Sam Hartman  wrote:
>
> > "Eldon" == Eldon Koyle  writes:
>
> Eldon> On Mon, Jul 1, 2019 at 12:49 PM Andrew M.A. Cater 
>  wrote:
> >>
> Eldon> 
> >> Regardless of what some folk say about pridemonth - it is deeply,
> >> deeply, sadly, ironic and painful that folk are arguing about
> >> pridemeonth in mails interleaved even as a valued contributor
> >> announces she is trans.
> >>
> >> Tina - welcome to a life of having to defend your every move in
> >> every social and anti-social situation - but welcome regardless
> >> and with every good wish, as ever,
> >>
> >> Andy C.
> >>
>
> Eldon> It's unfair to conflate concerns about how the Debian project
> Eldon> observed pridemonth with some kind of ill-will for those who
> Eldon> celebrate (or are celebrated by?) it.
>
> Perhaps.
> But acknowledging pain we cause in our community is important.
>
> For those of us in the LGBTQ+ community, I think it is likely to hurt
> when  we're trying to reaffirm that we're welcome in the project and
> that ends up being controversial.
>
> Remember we didn't just blanket support Pride Month.
> We talked about what that meant to Debian:
> https://bits.debian.org/2019/06/diversity-and-inclusion.html
>
> That blog post is about what joining  Pride celebrations means to
> Debian.
> And it is directly and completely about inclusion.
>

I had not seen that post before, and I don't see it referenced
elsewhere in this thread.

I think this thread started with a fundamental misunderstanding on the
meaning/purpose of the logo.  From that post, it sounds like it is not
intended specifically as a pride logo, but a logo for diversity in
general used by the diversity team.  That actually changes a lot for
me.  Maybe it was discussed on another list which I do not follow.

> And yeah, when that ends of being controversial it hurts.
> And discussing and arguing about it is draining.
>
> And I'm sure that this is draining for people with different positions.
> And I hear people's worry and frustration when they are concerned that
> Debian is making political statements that they disagree with.
>
> So perhaps this discussion needs to happen.
> And sometimes we need to experience pain as a community.
>
> But I ask you not to deny that pain.  Do not pretend that it's "just
> concerns," and that there is not a real cost to the discussion.
> Have it if you need to, but have compassion for everyone involved.
>

For me, these _are_ honest concerns -- and I would have the same
concerns about using any debian logo that was for a specific group (it
appears this one was not, I believe that was the misunderstanding that
led to this thread) -- namely how do we fairly decide which groups
should get their own logos on debian.org and on which days without
becoming very political?  I apologize if my message was dismissive or
otherwise unsympathetic, it wasn't intended as such.  The message I
was replying to felt like an outright attack against anyone who had
voiced concerns, and I did not feel the claims were accurate.

> And yeah, having your coming out within the Debian community and having
> it drop in the middle of this is damn well going to hurt.
>
> I'm not saying you're doing anything wrong by causing pain.  But I am
> asking you to show compassion.
>
> --Sam



-- 
Eldon Koyle

On Mon, Jul 1, 2019 at 5:24 PM Sam Hartman  wrote:
>
> > "Eldon" == Eldon Koyle  writes:
>
> Eldon> On Mon, Jul 1, 2019 at 12:49 PM Andrew M.A. Cater 
>  wrote:
> >>
> Eldon> 
> >> Regardless of what some folk say about pridemonth - it is deeply,
> >> deeply, sadly, ironic and painful that folk are arguing about
> >> pridemeonth in mails interleaved even as a valued contributor
> >> announces she is trans.
> >>
> >> Tina - welcome to a life of having to defend your every move in
> >> every social and anti-social situation - but welcome regardless
> >> and with every good wish, as ever,
> >>
> >> Andy C.
> >>
>
> Eldon> It's unfair to conflate concerns about how the Debian project
> Eldon> observed pridemonth with some kind of ill-will for those who
> Eldon> celebrate (or are celebrated by?) it.
>
> Perhaps.
> But acknowledging pain we cause in our community is important.
>
> For those of us in the LGBTQ+ community, I think it is likely to hurt
> when  we're trying to reaffirm that we're welcome in the project and
> that ends up being controversial.
>
> Remember we didn't just blanket support Pride Month.
> We talked about what that meant to Debian:
> https://bits.debian.org/2019/06/diversity-and-inclusion.html
>
> That blog post is about what joining  Pride celebrations means to
> Debian.
> And it is directly and completely about inclusion.
>
> And yeah, when that ends of being controversial it hurts.
> And discussing and arguing about it is draining.
>
> And I'm sure that this is draining for people wit

Re: Debian supports pridemonth?

2019-07-01 Thread Sam Hartman 
> "Eldon" == Eldon Koyle  writes:

Eldon> On Mon, Jul 1, 2019 at 12:49 PM Andrew M.A. Cater 
 wrote:
>> 
Eldon> 
>> Regardless of what some folk say about pridemonth - it is deeply,
>> deeply, sadly, ironic and painful that folk are arguing about
>> pridemeonth in mails interleaved even as a valued contributor
>> announces she is trans.
>> 
>> Tina - welcome to a life of having to defend your every move in
>> every social and anti-social situation - but welcome regardless
>> and with every good wish, as ever,
>> 
>> Andy C.
>> 

Eldon> It's unfair to conflate concerns about how the Debian project
Eldon> observed pridemonth with some kind of ill-will for those who
Eldon> celebrate (or are celebrated by?) it.

Perhaps.
But acknowledging pain we cause in our community is important.

For those of us in the LGBTQ+ community, I think it is likely to hurt
when  we're trying to reaffirm that we're welcome in the project and
that ends up being controversial.

Remember we didn't just blanket support Pride Month.
We talked about what that meant to Debian:
https://bits.debian.org/2019/06/diversity-and-inclusion.html

That blog post is about what joining  Pride celebrations means to
Debian.
And it is directly and completely about inclusion.

And yeah, when that ends of being controversial it hurts.
And discussing and arguing about it is draining.

And I'm sure that this is draining for people with different positions.
And I hear people's worry and frustration when they are concerned that
Debian is making political statements that they disagree with.

So perhaps this discussion needs to happen.
And sometimes we need to experience pain as a community.

But I ask you not to deny that pain.  Do not pretend that it's "just
concerns," and that there is not a real cost to the discussion.
Have it if you need to, but have compassion for everyone involved.

And yeah, having your coming out within the Debian community and having
it drop in the middle of this is damn well going to hurt.

I'm not saying you're doing anything wrong by causing pain.  But I am
asking you to show compassion.

--Sam


signature.asc
Description: PGP signature

Re: Debian supports pridemonth?

2019-07-01 Thread Eldon Koyle 
On Mon, Jul 1, 2019 at 12:49 PM Andrew M.A. Cater  wrote:
>

> Regardless of what some folk say about pridemonth - it is deeply,
> deeply, sadly, ironic and painful that folk are arguing about
> pridemeonth in mails interleaved even as a valued contributor announces
> she is trans.
>
> Tina - welcome to a life of having to defend your every move in every
> social and anti-social situation - but welcome regardless and with every
> good wish, as ever,
>
> Andy C.
>

It's unfair to conflate concerns about how the Debian project observed
pridemonth with some kind of ill-will for those who celebrate (or are
celebrated by?) it.

-- 
Eldon Koyle

Re: Debian supports pridemonth?

2019-07-01 Thread Russ Allbery 
Eldon Koyle  writes:

> I think a big part of the issue here is the fact that by changing the
> logo for only one group ever (presumably for one month out of every
> year?), all other groups are marginalized.

Huh, why?

Organizations to which I belong celebrate all sorts of groups all the time
that I am not a part of, and I have never felt marginalized by that, so I
truly don't understand why this would make you feel that way.

Could it be that this is just the first group for which someone thought of
the idea, did the work, and made it happen?

Personally, I would be delighted if Debian did something like Google did
and changed our logo frequently to celebrate the enormous diversity of our
project, although I'm sure we don't have the resources to pull that off.
But even if we did that, I personally am not a part of any group that I
can think of off-hand that we would celebrate, and not only does that not
bother me, I don't even understand the process by which it would ever
bother me.

Celebrating someone doesn't mean marginalizing someone else.  Being part
of a community isn't an exercise in scale-balancing parsimony.

> How do we ensure that Debian remains unbiased outside the realm of free
> software?

We don't.  It's not possible.  Debian is a collection of humans and humans
have thoughts and political beliefs and are messy and social and
collabortive and spontaneous.  Some things will get time and attention and
resources and other things won't, and that's just what working with a
large collection of other people is like.

What we can strive for, rather than unbiased, is to be positively
inclusive, which means that if something matters to you and you're willing
to do the work and it's a statement of positive inclusion rather than
veiled exclusion (that bit is important; human communications come with
context that matters), let's figure out how to make it happen.

-- 
Russ Allbery (r...@debian.org)

Re: Debian supports pridemonth?

2019-07-01 Thread Eldon Koyle 
On Mon, Jul 1, 2019 at 10:24 AM Russ Allbery  wrote:
>
> Gerardo Ballabio  writes:
>
> > Clearly, there must be a prior assessment that any particular group's
> > values are aligned with Debian's values.
>
> Sure, of course.
>
> > And I don't think that this is, or should be, within the bounds of the
> > Publicity Team delegation.
>
> I think this is probably the place where we disagree.
>
> That said, how *do* you want to handle this, assuming that other people in
> the project do want to acknowledge important events for our community
> members?  For example, Debian has made note of Diwali in the past in
> various ways (arguably less obviously than changing the logo, to be fair),
> and it's been entirely uncontroversial.


I think a big part of the issue here is the fact that by changing the
logo for only one group ever (presumably for one month out of every
year?), all other groups are marginalized.

Would the Debian community be willing to change the debian.org logo
for any group who a.) submits a suitable image file and b.) is aligned
with the Debian diversity statement?  If not, then what are the other
conditions, and who makes these decisions on behalf of the community?
How do we ensure that Debian remains unbiased outside the realm of
free software?  (As an aside, I think having the pridemonth logo on
the diversity statement page[1] sends the wrong message for this same
reason.)

How would the community respond if the logo were changed in support of
a fictitious "Male White Anglo-Saxon Protestant Celebration Week", for
example?  According to the diversity statement, Debian welcomes
individuals who fit in that group just as much as any other, and that
group is strongly represented among Debian contributors.

One other reason for some level of controversy is the lack of
precedent (at least that I could find).

[1] https://www.debian.org/intro/diversity

-- 
Eldon Koyle

Re: Debian supports pridemonth?

2019-07-01 Thread Russ Allbery 
Adrian Bunk  writes:

> It is also a meaningful gesture if some people are excluded from being
> welcomed.

> Would Debian honor a month of white heterosexual men?

Do you think people with those attributes have been made systematically
unwelcome in Debian, free software, or the larger world of computing?

Speaking as a white heterosexual man, I feel very welcomed every day,
which means that there's very little need for any special effort to make
sure I know I'm welcomed.  Literally the entire structure of society does
that for me, constantly.

I would like to pass the feeling on to others who do not have that
constant background feeling in their life.

The specific answer to your question is that context matters.  A month of
white heterosexual men, in the context of world politics at this time, is
not about welcoming anyone.  It's about declaring whiteness,
heterosexuality, and maleness as the dominant default and everyone else as
lesser, disguised in bad faith as a parody of welcoming.  This sort of
nuance can't just be handwaved away.

That is, however, specific to your chosen example.  If you'd picked a
different example -- people for whom English is not their first language,
for instance -- you may find I agree with you entirely.  I *don't* think
such folks are always made welcome, and I'd love to see some celebration
in the project of the effort and thought that so many of our contributors
put into working on a project in a non-native language, particularly if
they would find some awareness and recognition from the rest of the
project meaningful.

In other words, I don't believe anyone is being made unwelcome *for being
white, heterosexual, or male*.  I do believe that there are people in our
project who are white, heterosexual, and male, and feel unwelcome.  To me,
those are very different things, and if there are gestures we could make
that would make those people feel welcome, I'm all in favor.  But I don't
believe celebrating *specifically* their whiteness, heterosexuality, or
maleness would be effective except to the degree that it's a coded
political message that we definitely don't want to send.

I strongly suspect that the root of the concern is not that people feel
like they're being made unwelcome because of their personal attributes,
but rather that they feel like they're being made unwelcome for their
political beliefs.  *That*, unfortunately, is a much larger problem that I
doubt we're going to be able to comprehensively solve because, among other
things, it's mutual.  I wouldn't be surprised if you felt like I'm
currently making you feel unwelcome for your political beliefs; you may be
surprised to know that you are currently making *me* feel unwelcome for my
political beliefs.  I don't have a solution for that other than both of us
just living with it, and trying not to poke at each other too hard, but
I'm not willing to cede celebrating Pride for our LGBTQ+ members as
"poking" in this context.

> Many people are offended by the fact that it is always the same groups
> that are being welcomed.

My default stance is to be happy for people when the project does
something that they find meaningful and supportive.  If some people get a
lot of support, that's wonderful -- I think everyone *should* get a lot of
support.  If someone is *not* getting the support they need, that's a
problem that hopefully we can address, but thinking of it as a zero-sum
game where we can't support some people if we want to support other people
is just not at all how I look at it.

-- 
Russ Allbery (r...@debian.org)

Re: Debian supports pridemonth?

2019-07-01 Thread Adrian Bunk 
On Mon, Jul 01, 2019 at 10:10:53AM -0700, Russ Allbery wrote:
> Adrian Bunk  writes:
> 
> > Why should Debian honor people in the US of one specific race?
> 
> Because they are part of our community and the gesture would be meaningful
> to them.  To me, this is like asking why Debian should be acknowledge the
> death of a contributor, or why Debian should congratulate a project member
> on a major life milestone, or celebrate a project member winning an award.
> 
> We do things like this because we are not a computer program.  We are a
> community of living, breathing people who care about each other and who
> want to celebrate and support and welcome each other.
>...

It is also a meaningful gesture if some people are
excluded from being welcomed.

Would Debian honor a month of white heterosexual men?

White heterosexual men are also living, breathing people,
and they might actually be a majority of contributors.

Many people are offended by the fact that it is always
the same groups that are being welcomed.

cu
Adrian

-- 

   "Is there not promise of rain?" Ling Tan asked suddenly out
of the darkness. There had been need of rain for many days.
   "Only a promise," Lao Er said.
   Pearl S. Buck - Dragon Seed

Re: Debian supports pridemonth?

2019-07-01 Thread Russ Allbery 
Zlatan Todoric  writes:

> In my opinion, and as Russ explained about becoming political is
> basically unavoidable, I would be actually up for celebrating things
> that can (should?) be worldwide celebrated - community celebrating Pride
> Month is in my opinion a worldwide community. Celebrating specific
> racial/national/religious things, I think that should be left out for
> multiple reasons: nations change through history and if you celebrate
> holiday of one nation, you can easily miss how it offends the other
> nation, same goes for race and religion.

> So LGQBT, Software Freedom, Universal Healthcare, Basic Income etc - yes
> (it affects all human kind)

> Hispanic/Black/Jewish/Green/Orange/Blue things - no, because they are
> specific to certain group and diversity statement is all-inclusive for
> that purpose, no need to pinpoint specific groups.

I wonder if this may be a cultural difference (and by saying that, I want
to stress that means that I think different members of the project will
arrive at different conclusions entirely in good faith, and there's no
real objective right or wrong).

For example, my employer (Dropbox, for what it's worth, but I think this
is common among a lot of our peer companies) celebrates Black, Hispanic,
and Asian and Pacific Islander months (and I'm pretty sure others that
aren't occuring to me), along with things like Diwali, Ramadan, and
Passover (and of course Christmas and Easter), all in different ways.
These are generally self-organized by employees for whom these events are
meaningful, they're entirely optional, and they focus on talking about
food, heritage, art, personal history, and other similar things that vary
in their specifics but unite us as humans.  The point of this is to
recognize that people are different and bring those differences to the
workplace as part of their whole selves, people don't have to fit into a
single model or mold, and learning about other people and the things they
find meaningful is inherently interesting and broadens perspective and
helps us all work together more smoothly.

This is a fair amount of work (I don't know that Debian should try to
tackle that many events unless members of our community are asking), and
it does require a bit of effort to be thoughtful about how to organize
such events, but I think it's valuable.  But that's my cultural
background; that's the sort of thing that I'm used to, so when it comes up
in the Debian context, that's the spirit in which I take it.

Other folks may have much different personal experiences and therefore may
take it in different ways.  This may be something that's literally never
done in your workplaces or in your society, and thus something that seems
strange or unnecessary.

However, I *don't* think that saying we therefore shouldn't ever touch any
of these topics is either workable or wise.  Like it or not, humans are
inherently political (political comes from the root word polis, or public
life, which is unavoidable whenever there is a public).  For people coming
from a culture where this sort of acknowledgement is common, *not*
acknowledging someone's meaningful celebrations is *also* a political
statement, particularly if it's done because someone's culture is deemed
"controversial."  There is no easy default action here; we're a large
enough project with a large enough community that we have to wrestle with
this in one way or another.

Anyway, personally I'd rather err on the side of *more* celebration of the
diversity of people in the Debian project, including noting meaningful
days and events for them, because I think it says something important
about our community.  It says that we're a world-wide community of people
from a huge variety of backgrounds and interests, and that diversity is
also reflected in our huge diversity of packages and the universality of
our operating system.

> That said, I like celebrations (good way to find out about different
> cultures/things), so maybe, just maybe we could have these things still
> being issued by Publicity Team but with some specific Headline Tag like
> "Debian Diversity Celebration: Today we celebrate US Black Heritage" and
> then some text about its history etc - that way it would be informative
> and fun IMHO.

This is, for what it's worth, roughly what US corporations tend to do.
(Personally, I think we should always strive to be better than a typical
corporation, not being much of a personal fan of capitalism, but they do
spend a fair amount of time thinking about how to navigate these sorts of
things among large numbers of humans who are forced together by something
largely unrelated to their personal backgrounds.)

-- 
Russ Allbery (r...@debian.org)

Re: Debian supports pridemonth?

2019-07-01 Thread Andrew M.A. Cater 
On 01/07/2019 18:22, Sam Hartman wrote:
>> "Adrian" == Adrian Bunk  writes:
> 
> >> and so forth, since they're the experts on what they would find
> >> the most meaningful within the Debian context.
> 
> Adrian> Debian having a position on general political issues can be
> Adrian> dangerous.
> 
> Absolutely.
> I think that each time we should link what we're doing back to our goal
> of making a great free software operating system for our users.
> And link back to our priorities of our users and free software.
> In this instance, the link is obvious for me.
> We as a community have decided that being inclusive helps us make a
> great free software operating system.
> 
> Our diversity and publicity teams have decided that supporting pride
> month helps a part of our community feel more included.  By helping this
> part of our community feel included we make it easier for them to
> participate.  We let them know they matter.
> And I at least believe that makes it easier for them to contribute and
> thus we get a better operating system.
> 
> I do think that linking any political action back to our goals and not
> letting our mission drift is important.
> I don't think we do that enough.
> It's just that in this instance I personally think the action is
> justified.
> 
> Adrian> If Debian as a project is making general political
> Adrian> statements, then having a Debconf in Israel without a strong
> Adrian> public message regarding the situation of the Palestinian
> Adrian> people would make Debian appear to fully support the Israeli
> Adrian> side.
> 
> I certainly think we should be making an extra effort to welcome
> Palestinian people to our project especially given the Debconf 20
> decision.
> People are hurt by the Debconf 20 decision, and  I think part of
> respecting them is to acknowledge pain that our decision has caused and
> to be as welcoming as we can.
> 
> Adrian> Just like many LGBTQ project members might have a problem
> Adrian> with Debconf in a country where homosexuality is illegal.
> 
> Yep, absolutely.
> 
> Adrian> Most people from Israel are nice people and clearly welcome
> Adrian> in Debian, and so are contributors from countries where
> Adrian> homosexuality is illegal.
> 
> Adrian> But if Debian does make political statements, then Debians
> Adrian> position on the Israeli-Palestine conflict is a valid issue
> Adrian> for discussions on project mailing lists and in GRs.
> 
> I disagree with that.  I do think that our position on how that conflict
> affects the Debconf venue selection is appropriate for project lists
> where debconf venue selection is on-topic.
> 
> 
> Adrian> The decision that Debconf 2020 will be in Israel can be
> Adrian> overridden by GR.
> 
> Yes.
> There would be a high cost to doing that, but yes it can.
> 
> Adrian> The easy way would be if Debian would consider itself a
> Adrian> purely technical project and abstain from making any
> Adrian> political statements, except ones strongly related to being
> Adrian> a Linux distribution.
> 
> The easy and painful way.
> 
> 
> --Sam
> 
Regardless of what some folk say about pridemonth - it is deeply,
deeply, sadly, ironic and painful that folk are arguing about
pridemeonth in mails interleaved even as a valued contributor announces
she is trans.

Tina - welcome to a life of having to defend your every move in every
social and anti-social situation - but welcome regardless and with every
good wish, as ever,

Andy C.

Re: Debian supports pridemonth?

2019-07-01 Thread Marc Haber 
On Mon, Jul 01, 2019 at 07:40:23PM +0300, Adrian Bunk wrote:
> The easy way would be if Debian would consider itself a purely technical 
> project and abstain from making any political statements, except ones 
> strongly related to being a Linux distribution.

Yes please! Let's keep Debian about technology and bring Debian back to
technical leadership.

Greetings
Marc

-- 
-
Marc Haber | "I don't trust Computers. They | Mailadresse im Header
Leimen, Germany|  lose things."Winona Ryder | Fon: *49 6224 1600402
Nordisch by Nature |  How to make an American Quilt | Fax: *49 6224 1600421

Re: Debian supports pridemonth?

2019-07-01 Thread Sam Hartman 
> "Adrian" == Adrian Bunk  writes:

>> and so forth, since they're the experts on what they would find
>> the most meaningful within the Debian context.

Adrian> Debian having a position on general political issues can be
Adrian> dangerous.

Absolutely.
I think that each time we should link what we're doing back to our goal
of making a great free software operating system for our users.
And link back to our priorities of our users and free software.
In this instance, the link is obvious for me.
We as a community have decided that being inclusive helps us make a
great free software operating system.

Our diversity and publicity teams have decided that supporting pride
month helps a part of our community feel more included.  By helping this
part of our community feel included we make it easier for them to
participate.  We let them know they matter.
And I at least believe that makes it easier for them to contribute and
thus we get a better operating system.

I do think that linking any political action back to our goals and not
letting our mission drift is important.
I don't think we do that enough.
It's just that in this instance I personally think the action is
justified.

Adrian> If Debian as a project is making general political
Adrian> statements, then having a Debconf in Israel without a strong
Adrian> public message regarding the situation of the Palestinian
Adrian> people would make Debian appear to fully support the Israeli
Adrian> side.

I certainly think we should be making an extra effort to welcome
Palestinian people to our project especially given the Debconf 20
decision.
People are hurt by the Debconf 20 decision, and  I think part of
respecting them is to acknowledge pain that our decision has caused and
to be as welcoming as we can.

Adrian> Just like many LGBTQ project members might have a problem
Adrian> with Debconf in a country where homosexuality is illegal.

Yep, absolutely.

Adrian> Most people from Israel are nice people and clearly welcome
Adrian> in Debian, and so are contributors from countries where
Adrian> homosexuality is illegal.

Adrian> But if Debian does make political statements, then Debians
Adrian> position on the Israeli-Palestine conflict is a valid issue
Adrian> for discussions on project mailing lists and in GRs.

I disagree with that.  I do think that our position on how that conflict
affects the Debconf venue selection is appropriate for project lists
where debconf venue selection is on-topic.


Adrian> The decision that Debconf 2020 will be in Israel can be
Adrian> overridden by GR.

Yes.
There would be a high cost to doing that, but yes it can.

Adrian> The easy way would be if Debian would consider itself a
Adrian> purely technical project and abstain from making any
Adrian> political statements, except ones strongly related to being
Adrian> a Linux distribution.

The easy and painful way.


--Sam

Speaking your Mind

2019-07-01 Thread Sam Hartman 
> "Norbert" == Norbert Preining  writes:

Norbert> Hi Gerardo,
>> On the other hand, nobody but me has spoken openly to say that it
>> was a mistake to issue that statement. So I'm taking that as
>> meaning that there is indeed a project-wide consensus that it was
>> ok.

Norbert> I am currently in a dangerous position to utter anything
Norbert> that is not in line with the current main way of thinking.

Hi.  I'm going to reply to Norbert privately with advice specific to his
situation, but I've heard a number of people recently say they are
uncomfortable speaking their mind because they're concerned about
repercussions presumably from antiharassment, account managers, DPL, or
list masters or similar.

Russ talked about the inherent censorship we exercise as adults.  I
absolutely hope that we do watch what we say because we care about each
other and we want to make sure we are well understood and do not hurt
each other needlessly.  I absolutely do hope we double check potentially
touchy emails.  I absolutely do hope that when we need it we ask others
to read over what we send.

But I don't want there to be a chilling effect out of fear.  And I
certainly don't want there to be a chilling effect caused by lack of
understanding in how AH/DAM/DPL/listmaster work.  I'm going to give some
advice here, but please, if you are afraid to speak your mind, reach out
on list, in mail to me, or in mail to antiharassment and let's chat.
Our goal is to create a community that works together not a community of
fear.

In almost all the cases I'm aware of, problems come up based on how
someone reacts when a member of our community wants to engage with them
about their behavior.  That's right, the problem is almost always how
people are reacting to criticism, not their ideas or ideology.


The Antiharassment team, account manager and I want to create a
community where when someone approaches you with a problem, you're
expected to engage with them constructively.  When that happens, it is
unlikely that action will be taken, and exceedingly unlikely that action
will be taken quickly.

Example of what we hope happens:

* I say something

* Someone says that they think I was disrespectful or hurt someone or
  similar.

* I work to try and understand the concern and what the person bringing
  up the concern  hopes I'll do differently.  I create an interaction
  where they feel comfortable bringing up concerns with me in the future
  *especially* when I don't resolve the concern the way they were hoping
  I would.

* I work to disagree with ideas not people.  Especially if I'm coming
  across as judging someone for who they are or what they believe, I
  make my position more clear.

* Sometimes we're going to hurt each other.  Example: as DPL, when I
  contemplate changing delegations or team membership in order to
  improve a team, it's very likely that if people affected don't agree
  with my decision they are going to be very hurt.  Treating them with
  respect in that situation can involve acknowledging the hurt, and
  trying very hard not to judge them as people.  Demonstrating that you
  care when the things you say are painful goes a really long way.


* Being responsive and keeping the discussion going matters a lot.  I
acknowledge that those of us working on conduct issues have significant
improvement to make in this regard.

But again the biggest number one thing you can do is to create a
constructive interaction where people are comfortable coming to you with
problems.  If you do that and keep the communication open, you're very
unlikely to be surprised by your interactions with Antiharassment, me or
the account managers.

Examples of Things that are Problematic:

* When your response to a concern is to immediately deny that there's an
  issue.  Sometimes you'll disagree, but please take the time to
  understand first.

* Focusing on legalisms--did you technically violate some rule or
  not--rather than expressing empathy for what's going on.  If someone
  is hurt when they read your mails or interact with you, please take
  the time to actually think about whether you can accomplish your goals
  without causing as much pain.  If there are simple changes you can
  make that work for you and make things work better for them, does it
  actually matter whether you've violated the letter of some rule?

* Attack the people bringing concerns or use a tone where they feel
  uncomfortable talking to you about issues they have.

* Counter attacking/bringing up someone else's behavior without also
  working on the concern.  "I'm not going to change until this other
  issue changes."

* Be respectful especially in disagreement.

Over and over again when talking to members of DAM, the message I've
gotten for them is that the trigger for considering whether there is a
membership issue is when someone is failing to constructively interact
with the community.  When they bully--when they respond so strong

Re: Debian supports pridemonth?

2019-07-01 Thread Zlatan Todoric 

Hi Russ, others,

I must admit that I do support Pride Month but I was a bit uncomfortable 
that this was not discussed among wider Debian community. More on points 
below!


On 7/1/19 7:10 PM, Russ Allbery wrote:

Adrian Bunk  writes:


Why should Debian honor people in the US of one specific race?

Because they are part of our community and the gesture would be meaningful
to them.  To me, this is like asking why Debian should be acknowledge the
death of a contributor, or why Debian should congratulate a project member
on a major life milestone, or celebrate a project member winning an award.
And, already obviously there is part of community that feels uneasy 
about it. I am fine with and we should acknowledge what our members do 
(we acknowledge good parts and we should clearly state against bad parts 
(such as banning devs for hostile behavior)) but I honestly don't think 
that we should promote something that is important for one part of 
population (which some of our members are). As stated from others, we 
then become too much political and while first and foremost, we are 
community of people, we were to this point community of people that 
gathers around of idea of software freedom. That can imply that we are 
quite liberal in nature (and we do have a welcoming diversity 
statement), we should be careful to easily slip into more political 
context because we will always end up choosing sides (we even didn't do 
that but we all saw how choosing Israel for DebConf was taken by some 
Arab/Muslim members/users).


We do things like this because we are not a computer program.  We are a
community of living, breathing people who care about each other and who
want to celebrate and support and welcome each other.


It might make sense for you to honor them inside your country, but for
the other 95% of the population of this planet they are just people with
the privilege of living in the US.

They are Debian project members.  That's the part that matters.

In my opinion, and as Russ explained about becoming political is 
basically unavoidable, I would be actually up for celebrating things 
that can (should?) be worldwide celebrated - community celebrating Pride 
Month is in my opinion a worldwide community. Celebrating specific 
racial/national/religious things, I think that should be left out for 
multiple reasons: nations change through history and if you celebrate 
holiday of one nation, you can easily miss how it offends the other 
nation, same goes for race and religion.


So LGQBT, Software Freedom, Universal Healthcare, Basic Income etc - yes 
(it affects all human kind)


Hispanic/Black/Jewish/Green/Orange/Blue things - no, because they are 
specific to certain group and diversity statement is all-inclusive for 
that purpose, no need to pinpoint specific groups. That said, I like 
celebrations (good way to find out about different cultures/things), so 
maybe, just maybe we could have these things still being issued by 
Publicity Team but with some specific Headline Tag like "Debian 
Diversity Celebration: Today we celebrate US Black Heritage" and then 
some text about its history etc - that way it would be informative and 
fun IMHO.


Just my 2c,

Z

Re: Debian supports pridemonth?

2019-07-01 Thread Russ Allbery 
Adrian Bunk  writes:

> Why should Debian honor people in the US of one specific race?

Because they are part of our community and the gesture would be meaningful
to them.  To me, this is like asking why Debian should be acknowledge the
death of a contributor, or why Debian should congratulate a project member
on a major life milestone, or celebrate a project member winning an award.

We do things like this because we are not a computer program.  We are a
community of living, breathing people who care about each other and who
want to celebrate and support and welcome each other.

> It might make sense for you to honor them inside your country, but for
> the other 95% of the population of this planet they are just people with
> the privilege of living in the US.

They are Debian project members.  That's the part that matters.

-- 
Russ Allbery (r...@debian.org)

Re: Debian supports pridemonth?

2019-07-01 Thread Adrian Bunk 
On Fri, Jun 28, 2019 at 11:59:36AM -0700, Russ Allbery wrote:
> Roberto C. Sánchez  writes:
> 
> > Hispanic Heritage Month is coming in a few months (at least in the US,
> > not sure about international observances).  Perhaps Debian could make a
> > public show of support for those of Hispanic origin (who tend to be
> > drastically underrepresented in the community).  We already missed Black
> > Heritage Month this year in the US, but it is coming in October for
> > Europe and will come round again in February in the US.  Blacks, or
> > African-Americans, are similarly underrepresented in the community.
> 
> > Perhaps we could also show support for Jews and those of Jewish origin
> > during one of the principal festivals (Passover, Weeks, or Tabernacles).
> 
> I think this would be great.  Explicitly saying to our various communities
> on days of significance to that community that they are welcome and
> supported in Debian seems like a warm-hearted and open gesture, and I
> fully support it.  My employer does this for four or five of the events
> that are the most significant to company employees, and it's always very
> welcome.
> 
> The criteria I'd use (because we do have to draw some sort of line
> somewhere, since there are more days or months like this than there are
> days and months in the year if you look hard enough) is to let the
> relevant community in Debian take the lead.  That also avoids the
> occasional issues where there is some supposed recognition of a group that
> is controversial or unwanted within that group, which happens from time to
> time because humans are complicated.
> 
> So, we should look to our LGBTQ project members to decide what Debian
> should do for Pride, to our Hispanic members to decide what Debian should
> do for Hispanic Heritage Month,

Why should Debian honor people in the US of one specific race?

It might make sense for you to honor them inside your country, 
but for the other 95% of the population of this planet they
are just people with the privilege of living in the US.

> and so forth, since they're the experts on
> what they would find the most meaningful within the Debian context.

Debian having a position on general political issues can be dangerous.

Let's talk about the BDS community in Debian and Debconf 2020.

If Debian as a project is making general political statements, then 
having a Debconf in Israel without a strong public message regarding the 
situation of the Palestinian people would make Debian appear to fully 
support the Israeli side.

Just like many LGBTQ project members might have a problem with
Debconf in a country where homosexuality is illegal.

Most people from Israel are nice people and clearly welcome in Debian,
and so are contributors from countries where homosexuality is illegal.

But if Debian does make political statements, then Debians position
on the Israeli-Palestine conflict is a valid issue for discussions on 
project mailing lists and in GRs.

The decision that Debconf 2020 will be in Israel can be overridden by GR.

The easy way would be if Debian would consider itself a purely technical 
project and abstain from making any political statements, except ones 
strongly related to being a Linux distribution.

cu
Adrian

-- 

   "Is there not promise of rain?" Ling Tan asked suddenly out
of the darkness. There had been need of rain for many days.
   "Only a promise," Lao Er said.
   Pearl S. Buck - Dragon Seed

Re: Debian supports pridemonth?

2019-07-01 Thread Russ Allbery 
Gerardo Ballabio  writes:

> Clearly, there must be a prior assessment that any particular group's
> values are aligned with Debian's values.

Sure, of course.

> And I don't think that this is, or should be, within the bounds of the
> Publicity Team delegation.

I think this is probably the place where we disagree.

That said, how *do* you want to handle this, assuming that other people in
the project do want to acknowledge important events for our community
members?  For example, Debian has made note of Diwali in the past in
various ways (arguably less obviously than changing the logo, to be fair),
and it's been entirely uncontroversial.

Having a GR every time the project wants to acknowledge a day that is
important to part of the project seems rather excessive to me.

Perhaps it's just because I come from a work culture where this sort of
acknowledgement is entirely routine and unexceptional, but this all feels
like a tempest in a teapot to me.  My position is that if some subgroup of
Debian wants some sort of acknowledgement that's meaningful to them, we
should default to doing so unless we have some obvious reason not to, and
I trust the Publicity Team to judge whether such a reason exists and
escalate or figure out some other approach if it does.

I think this is much less complicated than people are making it.

Now, if the *actual* issue here isn't about process, but is instead an
argument that Debian shouldn't be recognizing Pride, specifically, then we
simply disagree, and I'm not sure fiddling with the process is going to
help.  And no, I don't think this is something the project should avoid
because it makes some people uncomfortable.  If we have to hold a GR on
having Debian acknowledge Pride, I'll second it, and I suspect it will
pass easily; I just hope we can avoid that.

> An example that is probably more to the point: Debian certainly
> welcomes Israeli people, but if publicity were to issue a statement
> that Debian supports a Zionist initiative, I'm sure that many would
> object.

We could instead acknowledging Jewish holidays as a way of making our
Jewish community in general feel welcome (if that is something that would
be meaningful to them).  For instance, Jewish co-workers at my job
organize an after-work Passover meal each year and invite anyone who wants
to join.

Corporations navigate this routinely, despite much stronger constraints
(even legal constraints) on what types of acknowledgements they can do.

> (There is of course a difference between being Israeli and being a
> Zionist. I'd argue that it is the exact same difference that there is
> between being LGBTQ+ and being an LGBTQ+ activist.)

Pride is not the activist event that it used to be, at least in the United
States and I believe in a lot of Europe.  It's become very mainstream.
(This is something that some people in the LGBTQ+ community are also
rather frustrated with, as it turns out, but nonetheless, I think that's
where we are today.)

-- 
Russ Allbery (r...@debian.org)

Re: Debian supports pridemonth?

2019-07-01 Thread Norbert Preining 
Hi Gerardo,

> On the other hand, nobody but me has spoken openly to say that it was
> a mistake to issue that statement. So I'm taking that as meaning that
> there is indeed a project-wide consensus that it was ok.

I am currently in a dangerous position to utter anything that is not in
line with the current main way of thinking.

But rest assured, there are enough who agree with you.

Norbert

--
PREINING Norbert   http://www.preining.info
Accelia Inc. + IFMGA ProGuide + TU Wien + JAIST + TeX Live + Debian Dev
GPG: 0x860CDC13   fp: F7D8 A928 26E3 16A1 9FA0 ACF0 6CAC A448 860C DC13

Re: Debian supports pridemonth?

2019-07-01 Thread Alex Mestiashvili 
> On the other hand, nobody but me has spoken openly to say that it was
> a mistake to issue that statement. So I'm taking that as meaning that
> there is indeed a project-wide consensus that it was ok.
> 
> Thank you all for your contributions to this discussion.
> Gerardo
> 

Hi Gerardo,

I was actually about to write a mail to the initial topic, but then I
though that I better ignore it, as additional attention is exactly what
the "minorities" are looking for.

So, here is my +1. I found it very wrong what publicity team did. And in
my humble opinion they take way too much responsibility for no visible
benefit for Debian.

First Daniel/Norbert issue, now this, it all leaves very unpleasant
feeling. This is the last mail from me about this topic.

Best,
Alex

Re: Debian supports pridemonth?

2019-07-01 Thread Andreas Tille 
On Mon, Jul 01, 2019 at 08:37:13AM +0200, Gerardo Ballabio wrote:
> 
> On the other hand, nobody but me has spoken openly to say that it was
> a mistake to issue that statement. So I'm taking that as meaning that
> there is indeed a project-wide consensus that it was ok.

I do not consider it a mistake but I was astonished about changing the
logo.  While I *personally* think it is definitely a good thing that we
are inclusive it flashed through my mind that Free Software is not
political (see the non-free licenses like "GPL but you are not permitted
to do evil" or so).  And yes, I've read Russ' good arguments to be
political.

I simply refrained from contributing to that discussion (and will not
take part any more) since I consider discussing this topic on the
mailing list as very less productive.  Lets do this at DebConf rather
face to face.

Kind regards

Andreas.

-- 
http://fam-tille.de